How Capitalism Beat Communism in Vietnam
It only took a generation to go from ration cards to exporting electronics.

Eight-year-old Phung Xuan Vu and his 10-year-old brother were responsible for fetching food for their family, which was in the constant grip of hunger. They were living in Vietnam in the 1980, so this required ration cards.
One of the family's most important possessions was a booklet of vouchers for food. As the older child, Vu's brother took care of the booklet, knowing that if he lost it, the family would have nothing to eat. The vouchers inside were printed on waxy yellow tissue paper. They meant the difference between going hungry and having something to eat, although it was never enough.
The vouchers had to be redeemed at food distribution centers. People often had to wait hours, sometimes all day, to get a little food, and those who wanted a better chance of leaving with food came at night. They were already queuing up before the food was even delivered, in the hope that it would arrive at some point. Once it was finally your turn, you often found yourself face-to-face with harsh officials. As Vu told Nancy K. Napier and Dau Thuy Ha in their 2020 book The Bridge Generation of Việt Nam: "The officials were not friendly. They were bossy and had power. We felt like we had to beg for the food that was rightfully ours."
The amount of food you got depended on your family's status. State employees received more, factory workers less. If there was not enough rice, people received wheat instead, though hardly anyone knew what to do with it: Even if they knew how to bake bread, they couldn't normally get hold of the other ingredients. In any case, they needed electricity to heat an oven, but electricity was available only a few hours a day.
Today the Vietnamese call this era Thoi Bao Cap—"the subsidy period." It was the time of a socialist planned economy, before the free market reforms of the late 1980s.
In 1990, with a per capita gross domestic product (GDP) of $98, Vietnam was the poorest country in the world, behind Somalia and Sierra Leone. Every bad harvest led to hunger, and Vietnam relied on food aid from the United Nations and financial assistance from the Soviet Union and other Eastern Bloc countries. As late as 1993, 79.7 percent of the Vietnamese population was living in poverty.
By 2020, the poverty rate had fallen to 5 percent. Vietnam is now one of the most dynamic countries in the world, with a vibrant economy that creates great opportunities for hardworking people and entrepreneurs. Once a country unable to produce enough rice to feed its own population, it has become one of the world's largest rice exporters, and a major electronics exporter too.
War and Central Planning
After the French colonists were defeated, Ho Chi Minh established a system modeled on the Soviet planned economy in North Vietnam. In 1975, after the pro-American government in South Vietnam fell and the last U.S. troops left the country, the newly united country's government decided to bring Soviet-style socialism to the south too.
The war had devastated the country. Some 14–15 million tons of bombs and explosives fell on Vietnam, 10 times as many as had been dropped on Germany in World War II. Napalm inflicted heavy civilian casualties. The South Vietnamese alone lost 1.5 million people, including 300,000 civilians. By the end of the war, there were almost a million orphans in South Vietnam and at least a million war invalids. Civilian losses in North Vietnam were lower than in the South, but it lost far more soldiers.
The planned economy meant yet more devastation.
In 1977, the government started collectivizing agriculture and nationalizing nearly 30,000 privately owned small businesses. Many peasants in the South regarded collectivization as particularly unjust because the communists had given them land during the war to secure their support and now wanted to take it away from them again. Many of them resisted collectivization, and some left their land or sold their animals rather than work in collectives. By 1980, only 24.5 percent of the rural population in the South worked in collectives, compared to 97 percent in the North.
"The peasants in South Vietnam reacted by restricting production, which was primarily oriented towards their own needs," Claudia Pfeifer explained in her book Konfuzius und Marx am Roten Fluss (in English, Confucius and Marx on the Red River). "Within a few months, the agricultural sector almost completely collapsed."
Less than 10 percent of the cultivated area for annual crops could be artificially irrigated and drained, even though pumps were available for about 40 percent of the area—power shortages and blackouts often made their use impossible. Only 30 percent of the agriculture sector's electricity demands were satisfied.
State-owned cooperatives received 40 percent of the government's funds, though they contributed only 5 percent of total agricultural production. The state collectives did not reward members for the amount of rice they produced, but instead counted how many days they had worked. If you worked 30 days, you got 30 points, which gave you the right to a defined share of the harvest. If you worked 20 days, you got 20 points and correspondingly less.
In 1980, Vietnam produced only 14 million tons of rice, though the country required 16 million tons to meet its population's basic needs. Every failed harvest led to immediate food shortages, and to rationing. The second Five-Year Plan envisaged an increase in GDP of 13 percent to 14 percent per year for 1976 to 1980. In fact, it went up only 0.4 percent—and this with a rapidly growing population. Agricultural production was to increase by 8 percent to 10 percent per year; it went up by 1.9 percent. The plan envisaged annual increases in industrial production of 16 percent to 18 percent; the actual annual average was just 0.6 percent. In the entire northern half of the country, the per capita supply of paddy rice declined by about a third in the second half of the 1970s.
Most of the yield was produced on the fraction of the land that was privately farmed. From 1976 to 1988, more than 60 percent of cooperative members' income came from the 5 percent of land they were allowed to keep after 95 percent of the land had been collectivized.
At first, South Vietnam's new rulers declared that they wanted to nationalize only foreign-owned enterprises. Vietnamese-owned enterprises were transformed into so-called parastatals (enterprises with state participation). But this was meant to be a temporary measure: The plan was that all enterprises would gradually become fully state-owned. The same problems arose in industry as in agriculture. Production stagnated, and state-owned industrial production actually declined by 10 percent from 1976 to 1980.
International sanctions against Vietnam—imposed in response to the country's 1978–1979 invasion of Cambodia—exacerbated the country's economic crisis. Later that year, China went to war with Vietnam, heightening the problems.
But 1979 also marked the first attempt to relax the socialist policies. Like several foreign communist governments before it, going back to Vladimir Lenin's New Economic Policy in the 1920s, the Vietnamese regime realized that survival required a retreat from its ideology. "At the beginning of the 1980s, the free market, in which prices were based on cost calculations and supply and demand, was once again allowed," Pfeifer wrote. "At the same time, the first cuts to subsidies for state-owned enterprises were introduced."
These initial reforms legitimized what had already taken place as spontaneous developments in several villages. Many agricultural collectives and even state-owned enterprises had long been turning a blind eye to official rules and regulations. Farmers refused to work in collectives and concentrated their work on the little land they owned themselves, because they could sell the goods they produced here at market prices. There were unauthorized contracts between collectives and families and between state farms and private traders. Such spontaneous grassroots developments, not the party, were the ultimate source of the reforms.
Changes to policy began at the local level and then were applied nationally. The provinces in the Mekong Delta, for example, moved from the rationing subsidy system to a market-based system as early as the 1980s. "Without such illegal or pilot procedures," Tran Thi Anh-Dao wrote in the 2022 book Rethinking Asian Capitalism, "there is evidence that market mechanisms could never have emerged so rapidly."
Here we see parallels with developments in communist China. There too, movements from below were at least as important as top-down, state-initiated reforms. Long before the ban on private farming was officially lifted in 1982, there were spontaneous initiatives all over China to reintroduce private ownership, even though this was officially prohibited. The result was extremely positive: People were no longer forced to go hungry, and agricultural yields increased significantly. As it became apparent that the yields were much higher, party officials let the people have their way.
The Vietnamese reformers' initial focus was on agriculture, at the time the most important economic sector by far. In 1981, for example, the state introduced Directive 100, which allowed individual families to use cooperative land. In the words of Vu Le Thao Chi, this "placed the unwritten custom of family-based production into an officially sanctioned framework."
In the early 1980s, a number of other reforms were introduced in Vietnam. Firms would now be responsible for their own profits and losses. Enterprises could decide for themselves what to do with any excess profits. Planners maintained strong controls, but if nothing else this legalized what had already been taking place illicitly. "For instance," the political scientist David Wurfel found, "when materials were short, goods could be sold in the open market to raise cash to buy supplies, or perhaps to pay bonuses to workers and thus raise productivity. Though largely illegal, these initiatives became more and more widespread. Thus, the first key reform decree for state industry in January 1981 required factories to register all activities they conducted outside the plan at the same time that it allowed them to acquire and dispose of resources as needed to increase their supply of inputs."
Though these reforms improved the situation, supplies of basic foods could still not meet people's needs. Vietnam remained one of the five poorest countries in the world. Officially, there were about 4 million unemployed people in Vietnam, but in April 1987 the Vietnamese ambassador told the foreign minister of Hungary in a confidential conversation that the real figure was 7 million. Meanwhile, inflation rose to 582 percent by 1986.
"Since monthly salaries provided no more than a week's living expenses, almost all households had to find extra sources of income to make up the shortage," the Japanese scholar Mio Tadashi wrote in the 1989 book Indochina in Transition. "It became common in Hanoi for families to use one room of their apartment house units to raise pigs. Pig-farming was the best source of extra income and most families turned one room of a three-room apartment over to pigs, hardening themselves against the noise, odor, and poor hygienic conditions."
Doi Moi
Control of the Communist Party shifted back and forth between reformers and a faction more suspicious of change. After the first reforms were introduced in the late 1970s, there was a period in which liberalization was frozen. At the Fifth Party Congress in 1982, those opposed to further changes were in the ascendancy.
But the country's problems became ever more pressing, and gradually the reformers prevailed. At the Tenth Plenum of the Fifth Central Committee in May 1986, Deputy Prime Minister To Huu and others opposed to the reforms lost their seats on the Council of Ministers. And at the Sixth Party Congress in December 1986, large numbers of representatives from South Vietnam supported market reforms. (As Balazs Szalontai pointed out in the Journal of Asiatic Studies, in the South "the private sector was by no means eliminated as thoroughly as in the North, and some cadres were willing to harness its potential for growth.")
The Party Congress was marked by an outpouring of radical self-criticism. In one speech, a delegate openly stated: "The people have lost faith in the party." The official report for the first time dispensed with a detailed description of the long, heroic struggle of the Vietnamese people and contained only the briefest enumeration of the party's successes. The leadership openly admitted that 1976–1980 were lost years in which there had been effectively no economic growth, and the report bluntly addressed such issues as unemployment, inflation, corruption, low manufacturing output, declining labor productivity, and environmental damage.
It says much for the Vietnamese that they did not try to blame external factors, such as natural disasters or the wars with China and the U.S., for their dire situation. The final resolution of the Party Congress declared that the "reasons for the current situation are to be sought above all in mistakes and errors of leadership and direction by the Party and the state." And the Vietnamese drew the right political lessons: The reforms endorsed at the Party Congress and advanced over the next few years focused on pushing back the all-powerful state. It was a seminal event in Vietnam's history, the beginning of the fundamental reforms that came to be known as Doi Moi ("Renewal").
The reforms adopted in the next couple of years included permission for private manufacturers to employ up to 10 workers (later increased), abolition of internal customs checkpoints, elimination of the state foreign-trade monopoly, reduced restrictions on private enterprise, elimination of virtually all direct subsidies and price controls, separation of central banking from commercial banking, dismantling major elements of the central planning and price bureaucracies, the return of businesses in the South that had been nationalized in 1975 to their former owners or their relatives, and the return of land seized in the '70s collectivization campaign if it was "illegally or arbitrarily appropriated."
As in China, Vietnam's leaders did not try to implement a new system from the top down in one fell swoop. They started with experiments at the local level. Where these were successful, they were adopted more widely.
At the end of 1987, family farmers won the right to lease land from cooperative and state farms on a long-term basis. These farmers' rights of disposal over land were expanded in the 1992 constitution and the 1993 Land Law. Although land could not be bought and sold as private property, the transferability and inheritability of land on long-term leases (up to 75 years) was guaranteed.
The character of the agricultural cooperatives changed. The collectives were dissolved, and farmers now joined together voluntarily. The new cooperatives became providers that offered certain services to the farmers, much more cheaply than the collectives had done in socialist times. Their services became both better as well as cheaper.
In the industrial sector, too, enterprises enjoyed much more autonomy. The state headquarters' ability to intervene directly in economic activity was restricted. Economic relations between the enterprises were to be regulated by mutual contracts. The planned economy was not abolished entirely, but planning now only meant setting strategic goals over extended time frames. The setting of wages and the exploitation of profits became a matter for the individual enterprises to determine. As Pfeifer notes, "Enterprises were even granted the right to sell, lend, or rent out capacities that could not be used by the enterprise at a specific moment in time" (though the business's assets remained state property).
There was no great tidal wave of privatizations, as in some Eastern European countries. Instead, state-owned enterprises simply declined in significance in relation to the private economy. Their subsidies were reduced, forcing them to work more efficiently and compete in the marketplace. Many unviable enterprises had to file for bankruptcy, and the overall number of employees in state-owned enterprises fell by about 30 percent (more than 800,000 workers) from 1989 to 1992.
Previously, the only private enterprises allowed in Vietnam had been family businesses, which were not allowed to employ wage labor—at least officially. Now companies were allowed to hire as many workers as they wanted or needed. In 1990–1991, the legal structures of sole proprietorship, limited liability company, and public limited company were introduced. This development culminated in 1992 with Article 21 of the new constitution, guaranteeing the protection of private ownership of the means of production against expropriation.
Before 1989, the state had fixed all prices. Now such regulations applied only to electricity, petrol, cement, steel, and transport services. This liberalization of prices led to an improvement in the supply of goods. Although many prices continued to rise sharply for a while, the prices of basic foodstuffs actually remained stable, and in the case of rice they fell.
Until the reforms began, the state dominated every aspect of Vietnam's foreign trade, which was mainly with the socialist bloc, first and foremost with the Soviet Union. Opening the country meant welcoming foreign investment and integrating Vietnam into the world economy. After a Foreign Investment Law was passed in 1989, money started to flow into Vietnam from Western Europe, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand, Hong Kong, Japan, Australia, and other countries.
One of the most important reforms involved abolishing the system of centrally planned specifications and letting companies manage their own exports and imports. The private import and export of goods was allowed and, in almost no time at all, Vietnam had compensated for its lost trade with socialist countries by increasing its trade volumes with capitalist countries, especially in Asia (Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan) and Australia. A series of trade agreements followed, including one with the United States.
In 1999, a new Enterprise Law removed yet more bureaucratic hurdles for private companies. In the five years after it went into effect, Bill Hayton wrote in the 2010 book Vietnam: Rising Dragon, "160,000 enterprises were registered. Most of these were existing businesses which had been operating without licenses and took advantage of the new law to register." Here again, the reformers were sanctioning what was already happening spontaneously at the grassroots.
Successes and Failures
Vietnam's gross domestic product grew by 7.9 percent a year from 1990 to 1996, faster than any other Asian country but China. Poverty fell sharply. By the World Bank's standard for extreme poverty—living on less than $1.90 a day—52.3 percent of the Vietnamese population was living in extreme poverty in 1993. By 2008, the figure had fallen to 14.1 percent. By 2020, it was only 1 percent. That indicator was developed for "low-income economies," though, and Vietnam has now moved to the "lower-middle-income" category, where poverty is defined as living on less than $3.20 a day. By that measure, the poverty rate dropped from 79.7 percent to just 5 percent.
In 1980, life expectancy in Vietnam was 62 years. Today it is 73.6 years. Vietnam has also risen in the United Nations' Human Development Index, which aims to comprehensively measure the quality of life of people in a country. The index score for Vietnam increased from 0.463 in 1980 to 0.704 in 2020, putting it only slightly below the global average of 0.723.
Despite the incredible successes, there remains much work to be done. There are still too many state-owned enterprises, and they often operate inefficiently. In some economic sectors, such as shipbuilding and tobacco production, it is absolutely implausible that the government should need to own companies, and yet it does.
The Vietnamese government avoids the term "privatization," preferring to speak of "equitization." Whatever you call it, the process is faltering. From 2003 to 2006, a total of 2,649 state-owned enterprises were "equitized," but since then the number has been in the low three-digit or even double-digit range every year. And while the privatizations have included a number of very large state-owned enterprises, in most cases the state has retained majority stakes in such companies. (Some state-owned enterprises that failed in their original fields were forced to change their business models in order to survive. They took advantage of their ownership of land and access to cheap state loans to gain a footing in, for example, the real estate or hotel business.)
Why has privatization been slowing? For one thing, many state-owned enterprises do not operate efficiently enough to give private investors an incentive to acquire them. For another, if the government insists on retaining a controlling stake in the company, investors may suspect that the bureaucrats won't be relinquishing their control. There is also a question of motives: The leaders of state-owned enterprises belong to the party, and they have little interest in their companies being privatized.
That is not the only conflict of interest in the state-owned enterprises. In his 2021 book Crossing the Street: How to make a success of investing in Vietnam, investor Andy Ho offers an example: "One of my first investments in Vietnam was in a fish-processing company that had recently equitized, with the government still the majority shareholder. Upon visiting the plant in the Mekong Delta, it became clear to us that more than half of the inputs (raw fish) came from the fish farms owned by the families of [state-owned enterprise] executives. As such, the CEO was always able to guarantee a 10 percent gross margin!"
Unsurprisingly, Vietnam has a corruption problem. When Transparency International assembled its 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index, Vietnam ranked a middling 87th out of 180 countries in the 2021 ranking. Its score wasn't as bad as it had been a couple of decades earlier, but it wasn't exactly good either. As one Hanoi businessman told me: "The official lists of party and state functionaries' salaries are published in the newspapers, and many only get $500 or $1,000 a month. Nevertheless, they often drive expensive Mercedes and lead lavish lifestyles. Of course, one wonders: Where does the money come from?"
Though Vietnam has created more space for the market and the government is no longer as omnipotent as it was, the party still retains a great deal of influence. That raises the question: To what extent is it really possible to effectively fight corruption in a one-party system without a free press?
But let's not dismiss what they have accomplished. The Vietnamese could have blamed all their problems on the consequences of colonialism and war, but they didn't—they turned to the future. Even with that one-party dictatorship in control, they allowed an enormous amount of grassroots initiative. The official reforms were important, but to a substantial degree they legitimized what was already taking place illicitly in countless villages.
The best thing a country's political leadership can do is to refrain from opposing such spontaneous developments and to create a framework of legal certainty. The proof is the immense increases in both freedom and wealth that are on display today in Vietnam.
This article has been adapted from How Nations Escape Poverty: Vietnam, Poland, and the Origins of Prosperity by permission of Encounter Books.
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You would think a country as large and experienced as the US would not move in this direction. Unfortunately, we are led by idiots.
Learning by starvation is not an intelligent plan.
I remember me Vietnamese refugee high school classmates in the 70's. Good people.
It's specifically because the US is so large that it uses its size to bully the rest of the world. Vietnam is a clear cut example, where Vietnam had explicitly invited the US to oversee a democratic transition away from colonial exploitation. Instead, the US used its size to cause mass suffering and supported the French with their official "Colony of Exploitation".
And yes, other countries also use their size to bully others. China is another example. Yes, both the US and China are alike in that they continue to use their size to bully others.
I hadn't heard of Ho's Vietnam "explicitly inviting the US to oversee a democratic transition away from colonial exploitation." Since Ho Chi Minh had learned political theory from the USSR and from Mao Tse Tung, what was his idea of "democratic"?
Not often mentioned has been the effect of the Communist coup in Czechoslovakia 1948 and of North Korea's invasion of South Korea in 1950 on American attitudes towards communism and decolonialization.
We stopped beating the shit out of dirty Marxist hippies. This is the result.
It is understandable the Vietnam wanted to expel the French and as I understand speaking to numerous people mostly from the south, but some from the north this was a universal wish.
There was divide over the direction forward which as essentially capitalism versus communism. The US got involved propping up the colonial power France and then the warmongers in Washington D.C. gained the upper-hand and escalated what could have been peacefully resolved into a full fledged war.
Vietnam has never been fond of the local bully, China. The Washington D.C. warmongers tried to scare the country into believing that China was going to gain a friendly ally and we had to put a stop to Chinese aggression. The north only tolerated/used the global bully, China because the south has aligned with a different bully, USA.
It nice to see how the north as grown closer to the capitalist ideals of the south. I know many US citizens who were born in Vietnam who have returned to visit. They are impressed with the progress, but still would like more progress on the personal liberty front.
The Vietnam war is a stain on the history of the USA, for several reasons. For getting involved in the conflict and allowing the Washington D.C. warmongers gain control. But also the actions and disrespect protestors against young men who were drafted into the war. Additionally, pulling the rug out from underneath the feet of the south after all the false promises.
No matter how it you look at it there are poor decisions. Good to see that Vietnam is rising to the challenge and not using the difficulties as a scape goat.
Kicking out foreigners works!
" But also the actions and disrespect protestors against young men who were drafted into the war. Additionally, pulling the rug out from underneath the feet of the south after all the false promises."
These sentences show your ignorance. I support most of the rest of your post, but this is just really bad.
First, anti-war protestor LOVED the soldiers. Yes, there were some isolated instances of them being negative, but BY FAR they were massively positive. You can literally look it up in history books. The soldiers were viewed as good allies in the anti-war cause.
Second, abandoning South Vietnam. You know, technically, he's, the US did. But they should've never supported it to begin with. It was MASSIVELY abusive AND unpopular with even the normal citizens. The US and South Vietnam blocked the reunification elections from happening because they knew the South Vietnamese government was so massively unpopular. Then the US supported the massively rigged South Vietnamese elections.
The rest of your comment was fine, but those two sentences show you are so wrong on those issues.
History is written by the winners, and then, as your 'example' shows, it is rewritten by the whiners.
... You proved yourself wrong. Right here.
Japan and WW2 shows that history gets to be written by the losers. The Japanese poured money into the post war publicity and public perception of Japan, and it has worked.
Your own example of the US and the Vietnam War shows that history gets written by losers. The US was not the winner, but it poured money into the post war publicity and public perception. It has written the history even though it lost.
My "example"? The heck does that even mean? It was the example that the other person wrote.
I honestly don't even know what you were trying to say. History is written by whoever has the money to write the books. That's all I can say.
...
What particular personal liberty we talking about?
I'm not too impressed by political liberty and its accoutrements. There are regimes that allow you to do pretty much anything but oppose them publicly, and I'd be happier living with that than living someplace that allows opposition political expression but bans sex and drugs and rock and roll, etc.
To what extent is it really possible to effectively fight corruption in a one-party system without a free press?
Half of the US are trying to find out but what can 70million voters do, really?
that line just jumped out at me for some reason 😉
It's hard to fight corruption with multiple parties and a free press.
that maybe - what does that have to do with america?
I mean, Singapore does it. Massive restrictions on the press and a functional one party state for its entire existence. Also massively successful partially specifically because of those restrictions.
It probably helps to be a small city-state that basically built itself from scratch and which controls a strategically and economically important shipping passage.
It probably helps, yes, but history has shown that's not all that it takes to be successful. Sri Lanka is a prime countered ample. Not exactly a city-state but fairly small and in a prime location for transit.
My point here is that yes, Singapore's success is partially due to these kinds of government actions.
The starting from scratch part is pretty key too. Singapore has been built up from practically nothing since WWII. The sort of government action an planning they have in Singapore is very difficult with a large, spread out population with traditional land holdings, etc.
I guess the questions is could they have done even better with a more laissez-faire approach? Was the planning and control key to the success or incidental?
Singapore benefited from being a British colony in that it had a tradition of rule of law and the English language. Other aspects of being a colony were not as useful.
This state-defined categorization has always amused me.
Why do statists think they need to define a limited set of business types? Why not just leave businesses to define their own legal category in their charter for other businesses, suppliers, and customers to make their own decisions?
(It's a rhetorical question, for those who need to be told such explicitly.)
^ indeed this.
The answer of course is the evil income tax. The state must track and control everything in order to tax everything
That's such a reductionist and naive view.
Theres such a thing as accountability. Imagine someone says oh, these corporate laws and regulations don't actually apply to me because I'm operating a limited liability societe anonimie GMBH. That's what would happen when you allow complete unregulation of business types.
Oh, bullshit. You're such an ignorant unimaginative slut.
If a business charter says they will do X, and they don't. the victims take them to court. Why is that such a hard thing to figure out?
Because you think laissez-faire means victims are naive, gullible, and impotent. Because you don't believe in individualism, either responsibility or accountability. Because you're such an unimaginative slut that all you can think of is "government, come to my rescue".
Fuck off, slaver.
You're so ignorant that you can't even open a book to read how wrong you are.
Calling me an ignorant unimaginative slut when you can't even see that there are tons of examples of you being wrong. So instead you resort to showing how much of a disappointment you are.
Learn to read first before you start writing comments. Your post was just sad.
Is that how you "educate" yourself, rely on books? They are a guide, not the final word.
Why don't you try rebutting what I actually wrote in addition to the insults? All you did in return was echo my insults. Try explaining why only certain corporate structures are necessary. Explain why it is necessary to rely on a few government-allowed corporate structures. Explain why we must rely on government enforcement instead of victims prosecuting businesses which violate their own individual corporate structures and promises.
You can't. You don't have the imagination. Freedom scares you.
It is pretty incredible how you continue to fail to read. I specifically said that if you don't have government-defined business structures, then you cannot have government-defined accountability.
Is that how you educate yourself, by ignoring books? History has shown time and time again that what you want directly leads to a lack of accountability. The French S.A. literally comes from societe anonyme, which I had specifically said. Those were literally anonymous societies, where the shareholders were completely unknown to anyone except each individual holder of the share. That let them abuse their rights and has directly led to unaccountability.
I gave the example here in this comment section and you still couldn't read. You are a disappointment.
Thank you for this reporting. Somehow I’d had the impression, formed before 1980, that after the war, the victorious communists looked around and said, OK, now what are we going to do for real? Like “communist” had been merely a veneer they’d adopted to get help from the reds against foreigners. And I thought they’d moved swiftly to free enterprise and were fairly prosperous at it much earlier than you reveal.
See, at the time I'd taken that as merely pro forma, a face-saving lie.
I second this. I wasn't quite as naive, I knew Vietnam is still a dictatorship, but I did not know about their shift towards free markets, especially with such explicit admissions that central planning wasn't working so well.
I knew when my high quality Osprey backpack was made in Vietnam.
Ho Chi Minh is spinning in his grave.
This is such a bad comment as well as an overall bad article.
First, HCM had EXPLICITLY appealed to the US to try to help with getting the colonizing exploiters out, to get the French out. HCM had been willing to become "capitalist" if it meant making Vietnam free. Instead, the US massively supported the French with their "Colony of Exploitation". That was the public French government designation what they were doing, and the US supported it. HCM was okay with doing whatever if it meant an independent Vietnam.
Then there's the rest of this article. Vietnam had never really cared that much about communism versus capitalism. It was specifically about being independent. What this article does is such a loser mentality. Oh, look, capitalism actually won, so the US actually won. It's a loser mindset trying to cover up for the US explicitly supporting exploitation.
Ho Chi Minh was a communist from the start. And don't claim he couldn't have been because true communism has never been tried or some such.
From Wikipedia:
And that has almost NOTHING to do with what I said.
He was a communist from the start. Okay. So what? That wasn't what I was talking about.
HCM had explicitly invited the US to be an overseer in any kind of government transition for Vietnam. He had explicitly said to the US to do the same kind of thing as the US had done with its own colony of the Philippines. That also meant the economic and government oversight, as had just happened in the Philippines. Yes, HCM was a communist. So what? Did the US not trust itself to be an overseer yet did trust itself to invade and wage war?
Your comment had almost zero relevance. HCM was more than willing to work with whoever to get Vietnamese independence. That would've involved capitalism too, regardless of him being a communist.
Are you so daft that you think people can't see you making excuses for communism?
Are you so daft that you have to lie and accuse me of making excuses for communism. Yes, you are. And I have to say yes because you are so daft.
Again, I challenge you to point out a single line where I make an excuse for communism.
You very clearly cannot even fathom the thought that you are wrong. You're just pathetic.
Fuck man, this troll sounds exactly like a sock from one of the trolls I already have muted.
And the arguments are stock internet trolldom, too. I remember being lectured by someone in exactly the same way, saying Cuba being socialist was America's fault, blah blah... change Ho for Castro and it's almost identical.
Just mute the troll, FLÜGGÅӘNKб€ČHIŒßØLĮÊN. It isn't arguing in good faith.
It’s honestly sad that on reason.com, people like you give zero reason for anything.
I have no idea what that person talking about Cuba said. Maybe they were right. Maybe they were stupid as hell. I don’t know.
Here,i gave specific and clearly verifiable historical information. Instead of actually responding to any points, you just bury your head in the ground.
I’m open to discussing the issue if you give any reasons. I could legitimately be wrong. The problem is you didn'teexplain anything, so it just looks like you’re the troll.
Because this isn’t our first commie troll rodeo. The longer you ride that bull, the more you realize it’s all just projection, obfuscation, gaslighting, sealioning, and lying. And that it isnt worth your precious time.
Me, I’m at work trying to kill a few hours so I’m game til about 3 o clock.
But you still haven't given any actual reasons or explanations.
You keep saying commie troll, commie troll, commie troll, all while you stick your head in the sand and ignore the reasons I gave to you.
You can't fathom the idea that maybe you could actually be wrong. Everyone who disagrees with you is just automatically a commie troll.
It shows how lazy and wrong you are.
This was such a bad article. Absolutely nowhere is there even an attempt at defining what capitalism is and is not. As a result, this article does what so many other writers do. Anything the author likes must be capitalism and anything the author doesn't like must be communism. It's lazy and bad writing.
Let me be clear. I don't like communism. I also don't like bad articles, and this is a bad article. As one clear example, the article says capitalist countries like Singapore. A country where over 80% of the population lives in government owned housing and where the economy is DOMINATED by state owned enterprises. And yes, Singapore is commonly called capitalist despite what would otherwise be considered clearly communist actions.
It's because that's what supporters of capitalism do. And to be clear, also supporters of communism and supporters of anything else. They see something they like and say herp derp, this must be my position because it's good.
This article was bad.
"Supporters of communism ... supporters of capitalism"
What a bunch of weasel words!
Anyone who makes that many excuses for communists and grudging admits there might be some "supporters of capitalism" is either an academic afraid to use real words, or a wannabe academic afraid to offend real academics.
This is not a BOAF SIDEZ debate. Some people mind their own business, others mind everybody else's business. You have shown your side.
What a sad, pathetic comment. You can't even see your own weasel words.
Tell me a single point where I made an excuse for communists. Oh, wait, you can't because you don't know how to read. I NEVER did. I said I don't like them. I wrote that right there, but you can't read. I said they are ALSO bad, but you can't read.
You've shown your side that you can't read. You criticize me for trying to do a both sides when you couldn't even read a single sentence.
You've shown you are full of words signifying nothing, and everyone who can read between the lines knows where you stand. I stand for freedom, liberty, individualism, personal responsibility and accountability. You? Plagiarism of my weasel words. Try thinking up your own insults instead.
It's called a literary device. You are too stupid to realize that you are guilty of all the things you have accused me of.
You say you stand for freedom and liberty? That's so pathetic. Anyone who can read will see that you've been proven wrong time and time again.
And instead of admitting that or learning at all, you simply bury your head in the sand. I don't need to create new insults for you. Your very existence is an insult.
No, it's called bullshit.
Yes, everything that you wrote is indeed bullshit. You gave zero reason or explanation, and you are bullshit.
Anyone who reads these comments will see how pathetic you are. You've already proven that.
I lived in Vietnam for 4 years from 2017-2021. My wife is from Hanoi, which I consider to be a second home. Vietnam is incredibly vibrant and dynamic and is very open to foreigners. Yes, corruption is still an issue and civil liberties are lacking. But that shouldn’t distract from the immense economic and material progress that country has made.
...
Gee, I can answer that one from this distance: because much of the fruit, and most of the fruit that was lowest hanging, has been picked. Those more knowledgeable, see if I was wrong just going on general principles.
Nope, I thought the same.
...
Why is that a problem? What am I not seeing here?
It’s like saying your suppliers are all Mafia, but your business is doing well, so what’s the complaint? Maybe your suppliers are strong-arming someone else to get supplies at a good price, but that’s not a problem for you.
Eh, only in the sense that politically-connected supply chains are susceptible to political changes.
Doesn't it seem to you that this'd be the sort of thing the CEO would want to shut up about? The company's in a privileged position; it might be only temporary, but still.... It's not like there'd be likely to be a day of reckoning where s/he'd wind up against the wall for having benefited from others' corruption, and in the meantime why call attention to it?
I love how people play with these words capitalism and communism as if there were a difference. You can argue that one says they own business and the other just controls it. The one pours investment in, the other takes profit away. Just who owns a business, some with their name on a deed, or the one who tells the business what to do and collects the profit? The only difference between the two systems is a few letters. What makes one better than the other is it's leaders.
'Guns' that STEAL (criminals) versus 'Guns' that ensure Liberty and Justice for all.
Your announcement of absolute ignorant stupidity doesn't change that.
It just grand-stands your desire to STEAL with 'Guns' upon your own self proclamation as it's "same same".
A truly imbecilic word salad, but still I can discern the stupidity inside. Yes the only difference is which GREAT MEN are in charge.
Please leave and don't come back until you have been educated.
Clue: that's got nothing to do with having attended an institute of higher education.
Stupidest comment of all, oh great one!
Personally, I love how steaming piles of lefty shit attempt false equivalence and are entirely too stupid to understand the imbecility of their claims,
Fuck off and die, shitbag.
Learning the hard-way that 'planners' packing 'Guns' doesn't actually make sh*t. It really baffles the mind how many times this obvious mistake can keep killing people over and over and over again. It's literally the mouse-trap of humanity who can't seem to ever stop wanting to STEAL the cheese.
I am reminded of the statistic that in the USSR, 5% of agricultural land was privately owned - and it generated 50% of the USSR's agricultural produce. You'd think that when an experiment testing an hypothesis keeps generating negative outcomes, people would eventually reject the hypothesis, but no...
If the U.S. had not cut and run in the 1970's, South Vietnam would have developed much as South Korea did, though likely the North would have emulated North Korea. Still, that would probably have been a better outcome.
This is by far a super common and super naive comment. Like South Korea? Maybe. It's completely possible. It's a total what if and can't be disproven.
But have you ever heard of another country that the US did stay in that's even closer to Vietnam than South Korea is? A country that was a colony of the US for 50 years and was still massively controlled by US interests after that. The Philippines. Lower life expectancy. Lower income. Lower education.
People like to say South Vietnam would've been like South Korea. It's possible. But it's actually MUCH more likely the US would've made it MUCH worse, like the Philippines. The political climate was MUCH closer to the Philippines than South Korea, as was much of the economic strategy.
In comparison, it's probably much better that the US left, but no one wants to even think about that.
And the Philippines fought our “colonization” pretty much from the get go. It’s also a bunch of islands that are ethnically and culturally diverse.
Lower life expectancy, income, and education compared to what? The Spanish occupation? The Japanese occupation? So far the more “independent” they get the closer they get to the CCP. Talk about a “what if” or counter factual.
I don’t necessarily really agree with the original post that S. Vietnam was salvageable. But what’s not in contention is the stark difference between North and South Korea. We saved millions of lives from literally one of the worst hell states in history.
Lower life expectancy, income, and education in the Philippines as compared to Vietnam. It should have been obvious given the context of this entire article and conversation, but I guess that needed to be explained.
And yes, the Philippines are also very different from Vietnam. As you said, archipelago.
It’s super awkward for you to scare quote “colonization” like that. Literally any serious writer or historian about it will say that it was a colony of the US and that the US actively tried to colonize it. You can open a book and read public proclamations. In 1898, US president McKinley explicitly proclaimed the policy of the US was to absorb the Philippines. You putting “colonization” in scare quotes is super stupid.
And you’re also ignoring other history. Immediately before WWII, guess what was the second richest area in Asia? After Japan, it wasn’t South Korea. It wasn’t China, which was way behind in measurements. It was the Philippines. And yes, that was during the time it was a “colony”, as you like to scare quote. But then, during and following WWII, the US passed laws that restricted the government and economy of the Philippines and gave explicit preference to US interests. As a result, it is worse off today than Vietnam is specifically because of US influence.
And I already said the economic and political situation in the Philippines was closer to Vietnam than South Korea’s was. Apparently you just ignored that.
Is it arguable? Yes. You could give some reasons. You gave two reasons, which is a hell of a lot more than edbeau99 did, where they just emptily said it without any thought. But I don’t think those two reasons are that compelling, given what I said above. But then the rest of your post beyond that was mostly just bad.
So you’re comparing income, life expectancy, and education from the Philippines circa 1905 with 2024 Vietnamese statics to cast shade on the US via a counter factual from the mid 1970s. Gotcha.
This is exactly why I put “colonization” in quotes, btw. Because you were obviously reductively commie washing the actual history and political dynamics at play over a century into a simple ‘merica bad cuz colonization narrative.
Despite the systematic capitalistic economic implications of our “colonization”not being much of a thing the first several decades because we were almost constantly fighting revolts and didn’t actual have full control of the islands.
And Despite saying a few minutes later that the Philippines were richer than everyone else under our watch before the jap invasion.
And no doubt the Marcos regime still counts as US “colonization” to you as well? Yeah, that’s getting scare quotes every day of the week.
Wow, you really can't read and really do need everything laid out word for word. No, you don't gotcha.
I am comparing modern Vietnam to modern Philippines. In the year 2024, Vietnam has a higher life expectancy, income, and education than the Philippines does in the year 2024. This is despite the fact that the US stayed involved in the Philippines while it didn't stay involved in Vietnam.
This is why you had put colonization in scare quotes? So you admit that you're wrong now because that's not what this was about? Because that's the only logical conclusion.
It's so ironic that you accuse me of commie washing when 1) I don't support communism and 2) you had to lie and misread everything I wrote to accuse me of that.
And no, I don't say Marcos was colonization. He had the support of the US for a long time, and that's how he got into and maintained power, but no, I don't call that colonization. So guess you're wrong on that too.
You just fundamentally can't read and want to push your story to make yourself feel better.
No, we can read and identify bullshit quite easily. Fuck off and die, bullshitter.
Fuck off and die, bullshitter, says the one who spews bullshit constantly.
With every comment you make, you just show how pathetic you are. Everyone can see how sad and stupid you are.
The best thing the government can do for the economy is to get out of the way.
...because their 'Guns' don't make sh*t.
Isn't it amazing how something so obvious has such a hard time being recognized. "What elephant in the room?"
Generally, though not universally, true.
Kind of massively disproven by… Literally all of the East and Southeast Asian economic success stories. Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore are the classic examples. China is arguably in the process. All had/continue to have HEAVY government intervention into the economy but in very definitively positive ways. They showed that government action can be productive in certain circumstances.
But you just ignored those relevant examples because...you wanted to.
Stupid is is stupid says.
China was poverty central before their government started to get out of the way and it’ll become poverty central again at the rate it’s going. Did you not see how fast their economy collapsed during the 2008 recession???
UR F’En S T U P I D.
Since heavy regulation is so great why do you think the USA become so prosperous so fast? Unicorn farts???
Yes, you are very stupid, and you've shown everyone else how stupid you are. Have you said ANYTHING about Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, or South Korea? No? Of course you ignored them because you don't know anything.
You seriously can't read. "certain circumstances". Those words apparently mean nothing to you. All of those countries I mentioned are categorically rich countries. All of them continue to have heavy government intervention in the economy. South Korea literally had five year economic plans.
But you can't read. Certain circumstances does not mean all circumstances.
How about you read this? The US still has government intervention in the economy. Social security is a direct government intervention directing people on savings.
Id you want to call anyone stupid, first look in a mirror.
If you knew what "stupidity" meant, asshole, you'd never post here after shaving in the morning.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of lefty shit.
lmao, it's actually funny how sad you are.
You give no reason or explanation and just show you're too stupid to give any thought.
Your stupidity is just so funny.
UR deflecting. And yes; SS is another reason the USA is going down the toilet. And frankly your beliefs shouldn't have any reason for you not to MOVE to China, Korea or Hong Kong and you'd be doing everyone here a favor instead of trying to convince the USA to mimic the aforementioned.
It's so ironic that you say I'm reflecting when that's all you're doing.
Anyone who can read can see that I gave reasons and explanations while you can't get your head out of your ass. Anyone can see that.
How about you learn to read before you comment?
Massively proven by the sources you cite. Fuck off and die, steaming pile of lefty shit.
It's hilarious how bad you are.
Those sources I cited had mass government intervention in the economy and continue to have mass government intervention.
You're just so pathetic. Learn to read, dumbass.
Off to your dreamland utopia with you.
No need to 'eat' up the USA before you go.
Says the person who denies reality and has to make up lies to get what they want.
You repeatedly lied and failed to read in these comments.
You're an embarrassment. Try actually giving reasons and learning to read next time.
Yeah, commies have figured out that they need some market mechanics to be productive and perpetuate the state. This dates back to the late 70s. And Vietnam has the added nuance of their government generally keeping a low profile. There are no current cults of personality that I know of at this point.
But communism was never simply an economic model. It’s a revolutionary religious cult with totalitarian assumptions about how society should be ordered.
So the real mark of whether “capitalism” defeated “communism” lies in the extent to which individuals can carve out a world free from that. I think the juries still out. The ruling party seems to have hit a sweet spot where they can have their cake and eat it too. But there’s no reason to think that would last once things get complicated.
Between fighting China and the Khmer Rouge and massive famines in between, they’re going to go their own way. Hopefully it works out. But I’d never bet long on marxism.
It is a crying shame that the US government decided to replace capitalism with cronyism. I guess you can't expect much from corrupt self serving idiots or the fools that vote for them.
So Vietnam found Communism doesn't work and has progressed economically from Communism to Fascism.