A GOP Plan To Raise the Retirement Age Reveals How Unserious Washington Is About Social Security
An obvious, tepid reform was greeted with shrill partisan screeching.

A Republican budget plan released Wednesday included one of the most obvious, low-hanging ideas for shoring up Social Security: Raising the eligibility age for benefits from 67 to 69.
That idea was included within a 180-page budget plan released by the House Republican Study Committee (RSC), a policy-focused group that includes most but not all members of the House GOP. Proposals released by the RSC are in many ways similar to the president's annual budget request: an aspirational document that reflects big-picture agreement on important issues, but not necessarily an actionable plan that can be passed into law.
So the call for raising the retirement age by two years—a change that the RSC plan says wouldn't even be implemented in the short-term to spare Americans currently approaching Social Security eligibility—would barely even be accurately described as a first step. It's also not a novel or surprising development: upping the eligibility age has been a part of the discussion about Social Security since at least the George W. Bush administration.
Which is why what happened next is particularly illustrative.
The White House immediately blasted the proposal for trying to raise the retirement age and reiterated the promise Biden made at the State of the Union address to block any proposed cuts to Social Security.
Other Democrats pounced, and left‐leaning media jumped aboard the messaging train. Slate dedicated hundreds of words to analyzing the potential electoral consequences of the proposal with nary a mention of the policy substance or how Democrats plan to address Social Security's looming insolvency. Meanwhile, The New Republic described the higher retirement age as "a plan to gut Social Security" without explaining how, exactly, the program would be gutted by a reform that puts it on more stable fiscal footing.
Indeed, even some Republicans quickly threw the higher retirement age idea under the bus.
"Horrible idea. Totally opposed to this," Sen. Josh Hawley (R–Mo.) told The Hill. "Republicans are so stupid. If they want to go to working people and say, 'Congratulations, you have paid into this your whole life—your payroll taxes—and now we're going to take part of it away from you, we're going to make you work even longer than we said beforehand,' I just think that's the stupidest thing I ever heard."
Look, I get it. It's 2024, and the only thing that matters is the Electoral College scoreboard. But following the polls and looking no farther ahead than the next election is how politicians have squandered three decades that could have been used to make changes that averted Social Security's insolvency, which the program has been warning about since the mid-1990s.
It's important to keep in mind that if you're someone interested in maintaining Social Security as a functioning program, the real threat isn't from proposed changes but from doing nothing. The trustees that oversee Social Security estimate that benefits will be cut by 23 percent starting in 2033, with further cuts needed in future years, unless policymakers make changes to the program's fundamental math.
"Virtually every serious person who works on Social Security policy knows the eligibility age must eventually rise higher," Brian Riedl, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and expert on the broken math that is pushing America's entitlement programs into a death spiral, told Reason. "That said, partisan reform blueprints only attract partisan demagoguery and poison the well for reform."
All things considered, raising the retirement age by a mere two years is a rather tepid reform—one that arguably ought to be opposed for not going far enough, and one that certainly won't fix Social Security's problems by itself.
A more ambitious proposal would phase out Social Security entirely, allow younger workers to handle their own retirement planning via private investments, and implement a federal safety net program to keep elderly Americans from falling into destitution. After facing decades of uncertainty about whether they will receive Social Security benefits, Americans should be glad to have politics removed from their retirement planning and be able to handle their own assets.
But if a modest, obvious reform is going to be greeted with a caterwaul of partisan demagoguery as Democrats seek to claim an electoral advantage and that sends populist Republicans scurrying away from their party's own plans? That says more about the current state of fiscal policy than anything you'll actually find in the GOP's proposal.
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A more ambitious proposal would phase out Social Security entirely, allow younger workers to handle their own retirement planning via private investments, and implement a federal safety net program to keep elderly Americans from falling into destitution.
Proposed a decade ago to the left screeching even more loudly. But since it never got the requisite number of votes and Obama said he would veto, both sides are equally bad.
How are both sides equally bad when it is always the left screeching down any reform for fiscal sanity?
Are Republicans actually solving the problem? No, but anytime they propose anything the leftist propagandists in the media accuse them of wanting to kill old people and outlets like Reason do their "both sides" critique to cover for Democrats.
What's the point of voting for Republicans if shrieking Democrats are their kryptonite? Why not just hand it all over to democrats, let them flush it all down the toilet and have a revolution so the country can declare defacto bankruptcy.
Countries can’t declare bankruptcy. Unlike businesses that live within a country’s legal framework, there’s no such framework overseeing governments. When a company declares bankruptcy, lenders acquire their assets through the courts. The only way to acquire a country’s assets is through war. So when a country stops paying, it’s called default. Usually they still pay off the debt, but the lender takes a loss. Pretty sure Russia recently finishing paying revolutionary war debt from a century ago, at pennies on the ruble. The long term result of default is reluctance to buy that country’s debt. You don’t see anyone rushing to buy Russian bonds. United States has never defaulted. Yet. When it does it won't be able to sell bonds anymore. But our kids and grandkids and great-grandkids will be paying off the ones the government still owes.
Agreed!
PART of the solution IN PLAIN SIGHT is to bring in more immigrants! Even if I am "responsible" (ass all git-out) in my old age, having saved MUCH money for my retirement, gold and dollars and Bitcoin will NOT feed me or change my geezer-diapers!!! We need WORKERS for that! Bring ON the immigrants!
Fucking asshole xenophobes!!! READ the tea leaves!!!
https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/03/21/global-infertility-rate-will-cause-a-dramatic-decline-in-population-in-97-of-countries-by- Fertility rates will see 'dramatic decline' with 97% of countries unable to sustain populations
HERE is the Trumpist solution!!!
https://www.cnn.com/2016/05/09/politics/donald-trump-national-debt-strategy/index.html
Trump: U.S. will never default ‘because you print the money’ . . . Trillion-dollar "special coins" stamped out, perhaps? Or super-duper multi-trillion valuations tattooed onto the butt of Spermy Daniels? Grab that HIGH-DOLLAR pussy, I'm a-tellin' ya!!! Grab shit NOW, while the grabbin' is good!!!
What is the point of not holding the Democrats feet to the fire for their shrieking? How does that help encourage the pols who show any trace of fortitude on the issue. You are going to get more of what you do not punish.
One of my biggest issues with Reason is they never seem to advocate for good bills. Instead the spread blame around for when bills don't get passed. I can't recall a single article praising a bill they agree with. More often than not is how the bill wasn't bad or didn't go far enough.
If reason advocated more for good bills instead of spreading blame around maybe they could help encourage the development and passage of good bills.
I can't recall a single bill that was worth praising. Please enlighten me as to these bills that deserve positive attention.
Let me start with this.
Do you think only perfection of any bill is acceptable? Because perfection is the enemy of good.
An example. Privatization of some of the SS funds discussed 10 or 15 years ago. Not perfect. Better than what we have.
If your only acceptable stance is perfection you'll never even take two steps to better.
I didn't say it had to be perfect. Just praise worthy. Name a few of the ten thousand page abortions that have come down the pipe that you think are worthy of praise.
I'm OK with that. Do nothing till it all collapses. No bill that saves SS is good.
Because the people whose job it is to do so, the media, have been wholly captured by the Democratic party. Including notionally opposition media outlets like this one. The Democratic position is the default "norm" and the further away a policy is from that "norm," the more "extreme" that policy is regarded.
Social Security should be dissolved starting tomorrow. Pay people back what they paid in by cutting the Federal workforce by 80%. If they're gonna shriek about tiny stuff, might as well just do go for what actually needs to be done.
Fox News is captured by Democrats? When did that happen?
Congrats retard. You asked about the one newspaper that had positive stories on the changes to Social Security.
Sarc might have more self esteem if he participated in contests for mentally disabled people. Or it might crush him when he loses.
He should find out.
There are less than a dozen Republicans who would actually do what it takes to fix the problem, assuming it can be fixed, the rest will go all limp and weak as soon as the Democrats and the Media start howling.
So why bother sending those useless Republicans to office. A vote for a Republican may as well be a vote for a Democrat. Not to mention the fact that Democrats blame all their failures on those Wascly Wepubwicans and the fucking Republicans don't even try to argue. They just accept that they are to blame.
The Republicans are anti-help. Not only do they roll over but they tell their Democrat masters and the Media that they are sorry for things they never did.
What a bunch of worthless Subs.
Fuck You. Don't touch my SS.
But Democrats do have a plan to 'solve' the entitlement crisis. It is raising taxes and eliminating the income cap on payroll taxes. That would keep entitlements solvent for longer, so by that measure it is a 'solution'. But it does not solve the fundamental structural problem.
That might work if the new revenue was spent as promised and didn't just result in more borrowing. But I doubt that will happen.
Higher taxes suppress business. America is great because America has a very free and open economy with the government taking 'only' 22%. The UK and most European countries have sclerotic 19th century economies due to high taxes. The higher the collectivism of the government, the worse the outcome - and you can measure collectivism by tax rates.
Maybe you should take into account Europe is high population density and 2000 years of depleting resources... The US is relatively Low density, but not as much as canada, and the US still has quite a bit of natural resources, yet less, a lot less than canada...
Population density, resources...
Part of weakening Russia geopolitically is to grasp the Wealth of resources of the Arctic where only 4 countries have rights... Russia, the US, Canada and Denmark...
Your options in pretty much every senate and house race will be a screaming Democrat or a spineless Republican. If you vote for what you see as the lesser of two evils how will you ever change anything? By not voting you send the message you'd rather the screaming Democrat you know is going to butt fuck you than the Republican who will most likely roll over for the Democrat. Either way you vote you will still get what the Democrat wants so why bother with the Republican middleman?
If you don't vote for the spineless Republicans and the Democrats get 100% of the seats how can they continue to blame all their failures on Republicans who by the way are happy to take the blame? Without willing targets for all the blame they will have no excuses for fucking up the economy, which they are going to do no matter if your district sends a Republican or a Democrat. Because the spineless Republican is going to fold when the Democrat screams and still take all thr blame for everything that goes wrong.
There are more firebrand republican candidates lately. Not enough, but a definite improvement. And now that traitor Ronna McDaniel is out as GOP Chairman, those kid of candidates might get some help from the party for a change.
I will believe I when I see it. Until then why vote for the spineless Republicans?
You probably don’t see it because the democrat media won’t cover them. You should listen to Andrew Wilkow's show on XM. He interviews such candidates at least a few times a week.
They exist.
I see. More excuses.
What's the point of me in South Dakota hearing about some aledged firebrand in Michigan or Utah? I can't vote for them. All I know about are the three fuckwits South Dakota sends to Washington. I can't quote their voting records but as far as supporting individual liberty goes they may as well be Democrats.
I'd be hearing about any real worthwhile firebrands in my region because my son helps get them elected. His gang of political ruffians have gotten 5 of them elected to the South Dakota legislature and the rest of the Republicans hate them so much they try to get them tossed out of committies and sanctioned on the floor of the House and Senate.
Just last session I signed a couple dozen petitions and sent several letters to the fucking Republicans who have tried to get those firebrands booted. I expect to need to do it again soon.
Right now the fucking Republicans want to gut the Medical Marijuana ballot initiative that passed in 2020 and take away landowner rights for some fucking pipeline to pump carbon dioxide to some magical fairy dust place in Iowa I think.
So yeah, tell me more about these firebrands of yours. I'm sure they won't be steamrolled by the GOP in the primaries.
Some are, some aren’t. But feel free to give up because every lat one of them isn’t. It’s a stupid argument though.
Give up? I didn't say give up. I'm saying stop voting for Republicans because they aren't Democrats. I'm saying better the Democrats have a 100% majority with no one but themselves to blame than elect Republicans who provide cover to the Democrats. I'm saying the Republican Party won't change if you keep voting for them out of fear of Democrats.
It takes more than just submitting bills to pass reforms. I even mentioned the roadblocks on the initial post.
When did the GOP ever have 60 senate votes? No democrat would allow the bill to hit the floor.
When have the spineless Republican Subs EARNED 60 senate votes?
Last fucking election, the Republican and right leaning moderate electorate wanted the senate Republicans to attack Biden on all his fucking weaknesses and the leadership of the senate Republicans said they wouldn't do what their electorate wanted. Flat out said they wouldn't touch Biden on any of his very actionable offenses. They asked to lose those elections. They begged to not be given a majority.
So again, why would you bother voting for a Republican Sub who calls a far left Democrat his fucking Dom?
Ronna McDaniel is out, and Bitch McConnell is out in November. That will help.
Will they be replaced with better people or will they just have more useless functionaries take their turn and Subing for their Democrat Doms.
Tue RNC already appears to be taking steps to right the ship. But time will tell. And as yet, we don’t know who will succeed Bitch as GOP senate leader
Ok, so twenty or thirty years from now maybe you will get your party cleaned up. Until then why vote for Republicans? Sure, you find yourself able to vote for a real firebrand in November then go ahead. But why vote for any of the incumbents who rolled over for the Democrats in 2020? Why vote for any that ave been backstabbing Trump singe 2016? What have they done to EARN your vote?
I consider it likely that things will be solved through a revolution. But I’m giving the new GOP leadership a chance to do something.
Have you got a better idea? And my rep (Cathy McMorris Rodgers) is retiring soon. So we’re getting new blood regardless in my district.
Better idea? Stop voting for Republicans because you dream they are a lesser evil than Democrats. Vote minor party as a protest vote or just vote on the local stuff and cast blanks for the federal stuff. The GOP isn't going to change if they aren't forced to change. Voters like you need to send a clear massage that they don't have your vote automatically.
Shows how Unserious Reason is.
I agree with you. Don't have a sarcastic font to use =)
Forget it, Jake, it’s Reasonland
Also government wants that sweet sweet money. They hope you pass before collecting. Plus, they spend the SS money as it comes in. There is no lockbox
Yeah how many people drop dead between the ages of 67 and 69? I don't know the actuarial numbers but I'm guessing it's a pretty significant percentage. Which means after paying into this scam for half a fucking century neither they or their heirs get jack shit. I wouldn't have a problem with that except if they had put 12.4 percent of their gross income even into a savings account they'd get something. SS was sold as a whole life policy but turns out it's term policy.
re: how many people drop dead between the ages of 67 and 69
According to the Social Security Administration's actuarial tables, if you are age 67, your odds of dying within 1 year are 0.021345 for males and 0.012988 for females. If you make it to 68, your odds of dying within the next year are 0.022750 and 0.014032 respectively.
That means if you make it to your 67th birthday, about 4% of males and 2.5% of females will die before their 69th birthday. Yes, those people lose out. But 96% of males and 97.5% of females will live to see their 69th birthday and will not "get jack shit".
I agree that letting us invest privately would be a far better deal with vastly better rates of return (and a lot fewer market distortions). But the small fraction of people who die between 67 and 69 is not a valid argument against this reform. (If it were valid, it would be equally valid for those who die between 65 and 67. Then between 63 and 65. Then between 61 and 63. Repeat until birth. And that's just silly.)
SS is a terrible retirement system. Any private company that had a retirement program structured the same way would be shut down by the government, and its executives prosecuted. Only gov Is permitted to screw people this way.
When Social Security was created, most people died before 65 and got jack shit. Don’t pretend that’s anything new. Everyone who ever pretended it’s a retirement savings program lied. It’s always been a welfare program, but one that often taxes poor working families to give to wealthy retirees.
In other words, it’s just what a knowledgeable person would expect in a retirement program designed by FDR and a Democratic Congress.
This concept is the least bad way to get the US out of Social Security. Tweak around the edges as needed. As of the effective date, e.g., January 1, 2025, no new workers join the system and pay no FICA or SECA tax. Workers already in the system can opt out, pay no more taxes, and get no benefits. Those who stay in keep paying taxes, and get benefits under the current system, with limits for wealthy people (e.g., net assets $2 million plus) and financed as necessary by general revenues. Assuming younger workers opt out, because they will do better by investing the taxes they would have paid, in 50-60 years, there will be no more beneficiaries. Yes, it's expensive during the phase out, but it would have been a lot less expensive had it been implemented in 1983 (the last SS financing go-round) and we would now be 40 years closer to the end. Financing the phase out will require other curs to domestic spending, but those need to be made anyway.
And Obama still got the Reason vote!
" . . . and implement a federal safety net program to keep elderly Americans from falling into destitution."
And there you have it, a massive tax increase.
'private' accounts can only replace Social Security if no withdrawals are allowed prior to retirement, for any reason, and those with private accounts are permanently barred from any public assistance after whatever the retirement age is.
Which ain't gonna happen as long as we let the democrats vote.
No. it is possible to borrow from your 401K account, and you pay back the principle and interest to yourself. Non-payback penalties are steep - imposed by government - but those could be adjusted to more reasonable levels for people who become unable to work.
I’ve been meaning to look into this. From what I can tell your investments on the 401k don’t get affected from loans against your account. Right now the interest on a loan is 10%. Loan origination fee is 150. If I pull out a max loan and simply invest it, can I get around the 401k loan max cap with this loan as I already max contributions.
Ie a 50k loan, 1 year payback, 10.5%, I would repay myself 5k this year in "loan interest" to add to a max contribution.
I took out a 401k loan for 5 years. Yes, the interest just goes to your account. The issue is if the stock market goes up.
I can't recall but I think the loan and interest are after tax dollars.
I'm thinking, depending on your plan manager, you could do this but I don't know if it will be profitable.
After tax IRA just means you dont pay taxes when you take it back out for growth. My 401k is split between pre tax and after tax contributions. The mix has changed as my salary increased.
Here's an idea.
Give the SS recipient a choice.
They can either take their SS money on a monthly basis as they do now, or give the recipient say, $1 million tax free as a one time buy out. If they choose the latter, they will no longer get any more SS payments, Medicare or Medicaid.
Oh, wait.
I keep forgetting the ruling elitist vermin in DC do not want us to have choices.
My bad.
And, oh by the way, you lump medicare and medicaid in with social security.
They can either take their SS money on a monthly basis as they do now, or give the recipient say, $1 million tax free as a one time buy out.
I think $1 million paid out at age 67 (or 69) would be a lot more than the social security checks a person would expect to receive for the rest of their life, even if they do beat life expectancy by a decade or more and draw SS for 20+ years. And that doesn't factor in any interest that would earn on the unspent amount as they go.
Overall, it might not be a bad idea, though.
Some locales actually got to opt out of social security and set up their own retirement systems using only the individual "contributions". Employers were happy because they didn't have to fund any of it. This was a form of privatization, where the individuals actually owned the accounts. The politicians could not dip in to those accounts to fund their own ambitions.
IIRC, those systems resulted in much more generous annuities for retirees, i.e. it worked.
This doesn't count Medicare or Medicaaid
As of December 2023, the average check is $1,767.03, according to the Social Security Administration -
1767*12*30 (really generous) ~ 636k
I would absolutely take a payout but there is no way that will ever happen. You don't have any assets in the system. There's nothing to pay. It is a Ponzi scheme wherein people who paid into the system who meet the age criteria are paid by people who haven't yet. The entire system is only sustained if people die before they collect as much as they put in. If the average lifespan is 70 and you take benefits at 67 you get 3 years benefits and not a dime more if you die on schedule. Your bereaved spouse can get yours or hers but not both which means the family income is reduced by up to half. If retirement age is raised to 69 and you die on schedule at 70 you get 1 year of benefits. Not a dime more. The government very much wants you to die sooner than later which is why we hear all of this panic about people living too damn long. The only way out is mandatory assisted suicide.
Sure they do. THEIR choices.
Let's see:
Horrible republican plan; raise the retirement age for workers younger than some (to be negotiated) given age.
Wonderful democrat plan; let 20% cuts in benefits for current retirees take place.
Wonderful democrat plan; let 20% cuts in benefits for current retirees take place.
I haven't seen any Democrats actually suggest that. I hear a lot about eliminating the cap on income subject to the SS tax, though.
The cuts are the current default if nothing changes - - - - - - - -
Hence the democrat position until they come up with a different one.
No cuts. Just raise taxes or run deficits
Thanks, one-braincell man.
The trustees that oversee Social Security estimate that benefits will be cut by 23 percent starting in 2033
Well, that the plan then. Don't say we don't have one.
Everyone wants to cut government. Just not that. Or that. Can’t cut that either. Nope, that’s too important. That too. Same with that.
Cutting that will cost old people. Cutting that will cost jobs.
Most importantly though, cutting that will cost votes. No matter what "that" is.
The 2016 LP platform--pro-choice and pro-repeal of sumptuary prohibitionism--surged to 4M votes covering the gap in 13 states. Rather than quit bullying girls, the GOP infiltrated the tiny LP with anarco-clowns and girl-bulliers to stunt our vote share growth. The GOP wants reefer madness prohibitionism and Comstockism. GERMANY just decriminalized weed while AfD nazis were busy bullying girls. Argentina's Comstock Trumpanzista legalized nothing and his meddling just got shot down in the Senate by nearly 2/3.
It all goes back to the Comstock Act. Every time.
And ‘girl bullying’.
Maybe if conservatives were to show actual compassion for the children they are so desperate to save from abortion they'd have an argument against what he/she/it is saying.
Face it, you don't want the woman to end a pregnancy but once she has that kid you don't give a fuck about either her or the kid.
What's the point of bullying girls into not aborting if your just going to dump them on the street with that so precious kid?
Yeah, who needs personal responsibility?
A woman who is pregnant, and the sperm donor wants nothing to do with either her or the kid, is being "responsible" by bringing a fatherless child into the world who if male will, statistically speaking, swap between welfare recipient and prison for their whole life or if female will most likely continue the tradition of single motherhood.
That's responcible?
Like I said, if you aren't willing to help that woman out with insuring her child a better life then why save the kid in the first place.
I know, the woman should not use abortion as birth control and the pro abortion movement is fucking disgusting. Abortion should not be a sacrament of feminism.
Single motherhood, the likely result of stopping abortions, is the absolute worst situation in which to raise a child. Who are you really punishing for the woman being irresponsible? The woman? The child? The future victims of the child raised by a single mother? The tax payers who will likely foot the bill for all of these people? Future generations of fatherless children born of girls raised by single moms?
Because there aren't an array of social welfare programs as well as private charity - including things like Project Rachel?
When the Republicans are actually in power again, like they were in the 80s 90s and early 00s they will leave the LP and the leftists will start coming over our way.
To show true seriousness, obviously the solution is a resolution to that effect.
I agree with the commentary SaraPalin.
If we do nothing, Social Security benefits, go down 23% in 2033
That is what we should do.
Agree. Let the cuts kick in.
Yes, this is actually the best solution as it will reveal Social Security for what it is, a simple transfer payment. There is no magic that lets it produce more benefits than workers have put in. Voters might actually have to think rather than just accept the BS we have been fed.
A Republican budget plan released Wednesday included one of the most obvious, low-hanging ideas for shoring up Social Security: Raising the eligibility age for benefits from 67 to 69.
We have two geriatric candidates for President in the two major parties, where both show obvious signs of not being as sharp as they were even 5 years ago, let alone when they were 67. (Of course, whichever one we dislike more was never that sharp to begin with, right?)
67 is already older than most people would retire if they had the ability to quit working. I think if we look for reliable statistics on when people actually retire, I'm sure the median would be years before 67. People that keep working well past 65 either need to in order to live, or they have jobs or positions where they have lots of assistants to do the grunt work so that they can just make the big decisions in between naps. (Pick your super-rich investor or CEO that is over 75, or Senators like Mitch McConnell (81), Bernie Sanders (82) and Charles Grassley (90))
Anyone that was in the upper third or so of the income distribution in their later working years will undoubtedly grumble about raising the retirement age, but it ultimately won't hurt them much. Or rather, it is people that expect to be in that income bracket that will grumble but not be much affected. There is definitely not going to be an increase to the retirement age that will affect anyone close to retirement now. That would be a political death sentence.
Raising the retirement age in the early 80s during Reagan's first term was doable politically because it came along with increases in the payroll tax and was happening during a time when life expectancy was steadily increasing. Libertarians, conservatives, and Republicans generally will only be able to successfully push for increasing the retirement age if it comes with substantial increases in taxes, such as removing the income cap. Trying to push the age up without anything else will be perceived as them trying to balance out Social Security on the backs of the low income workers that will need to actually delay their retirement to match it. And that perception will be true.
'Removing the Cap would transform SS from a model that reimburses you what you put in to a welfare program. It's nothing more than the Democrats' usual 'tax the rich' scheme.
SS does not reimburse you what you put into it. Your taxes pay for current retirees. Your benefits will be paid by people still working when you retire. SS has always been that way, people just didn't realize it. You do earn 'credits' while you pay the taxes in order to be eligible for benefits, and your benefit does increase if you earned more while you worked. But it has always been the case that the ratio of [taxes you pay] : [benefits you receive] is higher for people with higher income. It has always been a welfare program.
But my lockbox. Who took my lockbox?
I recall Rush Limbaugh playing a recording of an AL Gore speach with everything cut out except AL Gore saying "Lockbox". I swear it was at least 3 minutes of Al Gore just saying "Lockbox" with different intonations and emphasis. It was almost as good as his parody of Hillary Clinton's Deposition where she said some variant of "I can't remember" for the whole 30 minite deposition.
That's back when politicians actually talked about reforming SS. In those days the fictitious trust fund was fat with cash but of course every penny had been spent on other shit. Segregating the payroll tax receipts from the general fund would at least have been an attempt to force congress to pay for other shit from other sources. But of course it never happened.
Bill Clinton's supporters like to say that Bill balanced the budget. In reality the money being taken from the "lockbox" was of such a large quantity that it made to books looked balanced. The Baby Boomers hit peak income during the Clinton regime. Had he really balanced the budget we wouldn't be having this discussion as the "lockbox" would be full
SNL did a great sketch during the 2000 general election where Gore is saying ‘Lockbox’ over and over.
I forgot that. Al Gore was screaming out to be made fun of and even SNL couldn't avoid the call.
SNL was still funny back then. And it wasn’t mean spirited, like it is now towards republicans.
That sounds mean-spirited, but Gore deserved it!
I would have fucking pwnd that guy in the debate by challenging him to meet me at the office in Philly with a news crew after the debate and just like Geraldo's Al Capone Vault we can see what's inside.
The cap effects both pay in and pay out.
Removing the cap also ignores the Employer matching component of SocSec. If the cap is unlimited the Employer has to match those new funds too. How do you think that will affect the Employer's ability to pay its employees?
How do you think that will affect the Employer’s ability to pay its employees?
The same way that the tax below the cap did, but more so? And we're going to be talking about the highest-skill professionals and executives as the cap is like $180k or something like that, isn't it? It's not like raising the minimum wage, where it affects the ability of a business to hire unskilled labor.
Raising the cap will just raise the payout for the high earner.
Only if congress writes a law that way. Nothing prevents them from capping the payout whatever the tax.
Just raise the retirement age to 120 and never have to worry about it running out of money.
Just need to eliminate disability payments. The only qualifying disability will be death.
I advocate organ harvesting democrat voters. Don’t know how much revenue that would raise, but I’m game to find out. We can also keep overhead low by skipping the anesthesia
Do the organs get to cast a ballot? If so, we're in!
/DNC
Raising the age for full social security is not going to work. I would see this action really just forcing more people to take SS at 62 and to look at disability options to draw more funds. The biggest problem I have with raising the age is that it proposed by people not doing much work and drawing a good salary. It would be easy to keep working in congress until you are 69, maybe not as easy for a waitress or a construction worker to keep working. It also so true that people tolerate old politicians more than employers tolerate old employees.
Social security is a program that is about 80 years old and tweaks like raising the retirement age or dropping caps on payroll deduction will not solve the problem. People like the idea of SS and it best to keep the program and reengineer it for today's lifestyles. Here are a few suggestions. Keep payroll deductions it is easier for people to save when they don't miss the money because it being taken out. Move to personal accounts that people can follow. People can see their money building and know it is set aside for them. Allow individuals some say in investing the money. Allow options that open opportunities for more growth, and some chance of loss. Keep investment option within a reasonable safety limits, no junk bond type stuff. Include some means testing in form of age of eligibility. Allow a poor person to get higher payments at a younger age than a more affluent person. So maybe 65 for full benefits if your individual income is less than $50k/year and then age of full benefits rising as income goes up. A richer person who does not expect to live as long can take money out early but get a lower monthly payout. There are undoubtedly more and better ideas, but this would be my starting point.
Move to personal accounts that people can follow. People can see their money building and know it is set aside for them. Allow individuals some say in investing the money.
There's a slight problem with that idea. There are no accounts and there is no money to invest. The trust fund is nothing but a stack of IOUs because SS functions like a Ponzi scheme where the newly "invested" money is used to pay past "investors."
There’s a slight problem with that idea. There are no accounts and there is no money to invest. The trust fund is nothing but a stack of IOUs because SS functions like a Ponzi scheme where the newly “invested” money is used to pay past “investors.”
I don't agree with that analogy. My understanding is that it has always been the case that current taxes pay for current benefits. They just adjusted the tax rates and caps and the benefits to make them roughly equal. I say roughly, because the actual revenues will depend on how the economy goes in a particular year. That is where the Trust fund comes in.
The Trust fund was likely originally and for the first few decades just a cushion to get the SS Administration through recessions. That is, it takes in a little extra money in good years, so that Congress doesn't have to do anything during lean years to keep benefits going at the same level. But then, by the early 80s, they saw that it wasn't going to work when the Boomers started retiring. Taxes would have to spike far too high to cover their benefits if they were to get the same as previous retirees. Their solution was to increase the taxes (and the retirement age) so that the Trust would build up slowly and have enough in it to get through the Boomers retirement, again, without Congress having to go back and do anything.
The Trust is a real thing. It consists of Treasury bonds as the Treasury did some of its borrowing throughout the 80s, 90s, and 00s by borrowing from the SS and Medicare Trusts. The SS Administration has the legal authority to cash in those bonds to get real money to pay out to beneficiaries. It does not have any legal authority to pay more than it has, so if bonds + revenues is not enough to pay benefits, benefits have to be cut.
To call SS a Ponzi scheme implies that the Trust was supposed be there to hold our taxes until we retired, which would make the SS Trust a pension fund, essentially. But, as I said, I don't think it was ever supposed to be that way. It is just that a lot of people think of it like that, and politicians found it useful to not correct that misunderstanding.
I didn't say that SS is a Ponzi scheme with all the deception. I said it functions like one. As in money comes in and goes right out. I think you could agree with that.
Also I said that the trust is a stack of IOUs. What is a bond? It's an IOU, right? I think you agree with that.
So what are we disagreeing about?
So what are we disagreeing about?
We are disagreeing about this-
I didn’t say that SS is a Ponzi scheme with all the deception. I said it functions like one.
Ponzi schemes are inherently deceptive. That's what people think of when they hear or use the term. Anything that is "like" a Ponzi scheme would have to include that deceptive aspect or it isn't a useful analogy at all.
...money comes in and goes right out.
How is that different from any other government welfare program? Taxes come in and the government pays out welfare benefits. SS is only different in that it has a dedicated tax that is only used for that program, and it can only spend what that tax brings in. State and local governments can and often do similar things where certain taxes and fees don't go to the general fund, but can only be spent on certain programs.
The politicians who came up with Social Security certainly sold it to the public as a type of pension, despite whatever it actually is. It is was sold to the people as something it was not, it was a fraud, and that is how it is similar to a Ponzi scheme.
The politicians who came up with Social Security certainly sold it to the public as a type of pension, despite whatever it actually is. It is was sold to the people as something it was not, it was a fraud, and that is how it is similar to a Ponzi scheme.
I hear people say that regularly, but I don't know that it is true. I would have to see what FDR, his administration, and the members of Congress that passed it had to say.
Several states had started pension funds from state payroll taxes at the turn of the century. They were working well and the Feds decided to take them over and make it nation wide. I don't know how the state funds were sold but the fed sales pitch was more like "look at all these states doing this, why not make it a federal program."
There may have been a few people who believed that at the time, but it was not sold primarily as anything but an intergenerational income transfer program.
The oldest Boomer was 43 in 1989. Not everyone that ever existed before you is a Boomer. 65 year olds in 1985 were born in 1920, so not Boomers, but Boomers' parents, the ones that fought in WWII. The ones that were 17 and started working in 1937 when Social Security started.
There never has and will never be a trust fund. The money collected in taxes is deposited into the general fund. It is at most "earmarked" for Social Security recipients but an earmark is like a promise in D.C. it won't last for long.
Read the original law. It says nothing at all about any method of sequestering the money. No Lockbox, no Trustfund. Nothing.
Charles Schwab accounts are followable and visible.
So is Fidelity or any investment. You’re buying capital in something and watching it grow or shrink. SS isn’t an investment. You’re not buying anything. You’re paying current retirees. Future workers will pay you when you collect. So there’s nothing to see or follow.
Goddamn Hank, you wrote a clear and cogent sentence devoid of you usual pointlessly arcane nonsense. Did Hell freeze over?
"It also so true that people tolerate old politicians more than..." Let's revisit that after the votes for Chase Oliver have been counted.
Rarely agree with you on anything but have to say I mostly agree with your comment. AI notwithstanding the reality is that for the foreseeable future a whole lot of jobs require hard physical labor. The pajama class can sit around saving humanity via Zoom calls till they're seventy but can a seventy year old put a roof on their house? I don't think the government should force anybody to figure out how long they can work but if they're going to confiscate 12.4 percent of my income at least show me a balance sheet and let me decide when I'm ready to retire.
GG, I agree Moderation has presented a thoughtful plan, very similar to how 401k's work.
An important component is that the money put into each person's account CANNOT be touched by the government, else it will be confiscated at the first sign of trouble. The transition from SS to the new plan could be gradual - SS dropping 1% each year from 12.5 to zero in 13 years. SS benefits should be income adjusted a bit as well. If you're 70 and making $250+k then perhaps your benefits drop by 25%, again on a sliding scale, and at $1MM they go to zero. All inflation adjusted, of course.
Switching to actual individual accounts with actual money in them might be a good idea, except for two problems. The first is that we will still have everyone that isn't just starting depending on a nearly 90 years old Ponzi scheme. You either screw all the old people by stopping payments from an empty account, or you screw all the young people by double-taxing them with mandatory savings PLUS taxes to keep the old scheme paying out.
The second is, who manages those individual accounts? The majority of Americans are incapable; they went to public schools and barely learned arithmetic, mostly from teachers that barely understood what they were teaching. I'd do well, but I started looking for ways to go beyond what public schools attempted to teach in the 3rd grade! And the _worst_ thing we could do is to have a government agency controlling trillions in actual investments.
Dump it in a moderate risk mix of index funds and call it a day.
A more ambitious proposal would phase out Social Security entirely, allow younger workers to handle their own retirement planning via private investments, and implement a federal safety net program to keep elderly Americans from falling into destitution.
A safety net program to keep the elderly from falling into destitution, eh? You mean, like Social Security?
This is not an "ambitious proposal." This is very close to how it works now. It is just that few people realize that this is what Social Security does. SS benefits are not enough for people to retain their same lifestyle upon retirement unless they are already low income. Check out a SS benefit calculator and you'll see how much you would get under existing formulas. For me, it comes out to $2290 a month if I retire at 67. That's less than half of what I earn per month now.
The only difference between how SS works and this idea is that the 'safety net' plan would likely be means tested and provide nothing to workers above a certain income. But then it would fall into the same problem all means-tested welfare programs have: the problem of gains in income leading to lower welfare benefits that reduce the incentive to earn more.
SS as it exists and has existed since the beginning provides political buy-in from a wide range of the population because every worker gets something from it. For those with low income that can't save much on their own, it provides a steady check in their old age. For those in the middle class, they get something that allows them to feel that they are getting a benefit in exchange for having paid taxes all of those years.
I think politicians should just be more honest about what SS is supposed to do, and maybe people will accept it and see it as a good thing. It is a social welfare plan that provides a safety net for the poor and low income elderly and disabled, while also giving back some to all workers so that they all have some stake in it, even if they don't need it.
The main misconception that needs to be dispelled is that people are getting back their tax money, though. We earn a benefit because we paid the SS tax, but those taxes were given to retirees while we were working. Our benefits when we retire will come from those still working. It always was that way, but politicians of both parties saw it as being useful for Americans to not understand that.
"I think politicians should just be more honest about what SS is supposed to do"
ROFLMGDAO!
I'm glad I was able to give you a good laugh. But the cynicism behind it is one of the largest problems with (American) democracy. We expect politicians to lie about polices. We don't like that they lie about policies. But then we don't do anything about it. There is a very simple way to do something that could keep liars out of office. Not voting for liars.
The problem is that:
a) It's always/mostly the other side's candidates that are the liars.
b) My side's candidates only lie about little things, not the big things.
c) The media that supports the other side is lying about my side's candidates being liars.
d.) My side's candidates may lie, but I just hate the other side and their policies too much to let them win.
e.) Any or all of the above.
I conclude that most voters just don't care whether candidates are honest. It's the only way to explain the cynicism so many people have towards the lack of honesty among politicians.
They want their candidates to lie better than their opponents candidates.
For me, it comes out to $2290 a month if I retire at 67.
Most recipients get substantially less than that.
that reduce the incentive to earn more.
The poverty of people struggling to live only on SS provides plenty of incentive to earn more. However, most low income people are not going to be able to earn more. The low paying jobs need to be done, so someone has to do them. Mostly they're done by people who lack the intellectual or physical abilities to do higher paying jobs. Making sure they are not destitute in their old age is the right thing to do.
Most recipients get substantially less than that.
I'm sure that's true. I'm also 15 years away from that age, so I have no doubt that most current retirees get less.
The poverty of people struggling to live only on SS provides plenty of incentive to earn more.
I was saying that turning SS into a means-tested program for the poor and other low-income elderly would reduce the incentives to earn more in the same way that I assume many welfare programs work. That is, at an income of X, you get Y for a benefit, but if you have 1.5*X in income, you will get less than Y, and eventually, your income is too high to receive any benefit. As SS exists now, you actually will receive a little more in your SS check if you earn more in your final years of working (from what I saw in the benefit calculator on the SS website).
Making sure they are not destitute in their old age is the right thing to do.
I couldn't agree more.
The prospect of a better life for those willing and able to save more for retirement than they would have depending on SS negates any disincentive from means testing. The amount of money in a SS check just isn't significant enough to discourage anyone able to do so from putting away more money to live better in retirement. Younger people dependent on public assistance are generally unable to get jobs that pay enough to improve their lives above what they have on welfare, and so for them work is a bad deal.
Lots of people are highly disincentivized to increase production if it decreases government benefits. I am a tax preparer. I deal with people all the time who will say things like "It isn't worth working if I don't get as big of a refund." It probably won't disincentivize the upper middle class but there is a large portion of society that live in the middle. I see lots of people doing the math to figure out just exactly how much they can work to get the minimum social security benefit. And the desire to then figure out how to work off the books is a completely different problem.
I get around 1500 a month. I get some taken out for Medicare Part B, Medigap and my Drug Coverage. Probably nets me 1100 a month. If I get a job I have to report every cent of income and if it goes 1 dollar over what my gross monthly payment is I lose EVERYTHING. That includes Medicare A, Medicare B and all the supplemental policies and I am expected to find private insurance to cover my needs.
Since I have a transplanted kidney I'd need to at least quadruple what SSI sends me now to match the insurance coverage I have now. That would be hard to do since I am on the program for a reason, kidney failure. Private insurance companies don't want to insure me. I'd need a job with a fortune 500 company for the increase in expenses billed to the insurance company to be absorbed by the rest of the people on the plan.
When I first got on dialysis there was a three month period where my wife's policy from her job had to cover me. Her insurance company was going to drop her in the new year. We had to do some massive shuffling paper to prove that in the new year Medicare Part A would pay the full amount for dialysis and that I would not be on her plan ever again.
When SS and Medicare go tits up so will I. At my age and in my condition I can't get a job that will keep me alive. There will be a lot of others who will be in the same place.
Well said Jason. It's amazing that so few actually understand this scheme even though it's been around before most of us were born. My monthly SS is about a week and half worth of what I could make before I retired. And it's still taxable. It ain't no gravy train and I'll only get back what I paid in if I live long enough. Without interest. At the bottom end it's not enough for an individual to maintain an independent lifestyle without other assets.
"Look, I get it. It's 2024 ..."
What if I don't WANT to avert "Social Security's insolvency?" What if I WANT Social Security - and the rest of the Federal government - to go bankrupt? What if I am so angry at the entire abandonment of any semblance of Constitutional limitations by Congress, the Supreme Court and the Executive Branch and the abdication of responsibility by Congress and the Supreme Court for keeping the Executive in check that I would rather the whole thing collapse than to let the self-serving politicians and the socialists continue to pretend that they're trying to help me?
Andrew Heaton did a great show on the subject.
"Money Doomscape of the Debt Apocalypse"
He goes through a few possible scenarios. It's quite interesting and informative. And long.
I'm with you. Let it all burn. People voted irresponsibly for this shit, let them reap as they sow.
LOL! It's almost like the Social Security Program itself needs a Social Security Program...
"and implement a federal safety net program to keep elderly Americans from falling into destitution.”
*Chokes like Jackie Gleason*
Google tells me SS started in 1935, so it's certainly the right age for it.
The only politically palatable solution would be to cut benefits somewhat while at the same time increasing payroll taxes.
However, the Democrats don't want to lose biggest weapon they have against the GOP.
(and for the same reason Republicans don't want to seriously address the border problem.)
That would make things worse. You don't get what you put in, some make a killling and some don't get anywhere near what they put in
And the border problem is part of it. All those diseased uneducated broken family types coming across (not to mention drugs and violence and criminality) have a huge cost in the economy . You want them to be separate, but they are not
" The fiscal burden of providing essential services and benefits to illegal aliens costs American taxpayers nearly $151 billion each year."
Another idea. Replace the SS safety net with free M.A.I.D. services.
Don't think that isn't coming.
Means testing!
“Have you saved for your own retirement? How responsible of you. Sucker! You get nothing! Next!”
“You’ve got nothing? How spendthrifty of you. Great job! Here’s some of the money that sucker in front of you paid into the program! Next!”
Agree wholeheartedly. Any means testing should be based on what your lifetime earnings were, not your current net asset values. Spinster teacher who earned $75,000 per year and saved frugally should not have to pay for playboy car salesman who earned $75,000 but spent every last dime on hookers, blow, Vegas, and trips to Los Cabos.
Spinster teacher who earned $75,000 per year and saved frugally should not have to pay for playboy car salesman who earned $75,000 but spent every last dime on hookers, blow, Vegas, and trips to Los Cabos.
That's how means testing will work in practice.
Except she won't pay for him. Technically they both pay for retirees while they work, and workers will pay their entitlements (if they get any).
But it will punish the frugal while rewarding the spendthrifts. That is certain.
We already went over this with Sen Warren and the famous showdown with the guy who slaved to pay for his daughter's college
The most obvious is not raising the age, which of course will punish the average worker, is to means test. Say it with me, means test social security, put it on a sliding scale
Spare me the cries of unfairness, please, nothing about the gaping wealth gap is fair.
Pure envy from a person that doesn’t make much money.
We are absolutely dependent of people who don't make much money. Their work is essential. It's good policy to make sure they are not destitute when they can't work anymore.
That’s not what he was advocating for.
Life isn't fair. Or at least no one can agree on what is fair. Does fair mean everyone gets the same thing, or that everyone gets what they deserve? And what does anyone really deserve? These are not questions that a government welfare program can resolve.
That non-aggression principle goes out the window mighty quickly, almost as if very many libertarians are actually liberals (but not in the classical sense).
The aggression has been happening for damn near 100 years pushed by both Democrats and Republicans. There never has been any money earmarked for the individuals in the system. It's been theft and threats since day one. Now we stand at the inevitable end of all that lying, thieving and threatening with little more than a promise of a hard ass fucking and you're arguing about deck chairs on the Titanic.
Two options. Cut it off all at once. Just admit everyones been screwed and move on letting pieces fall as they may.
Second way, divide what they collect each year by the number of people receiving the money. If that means everyone gets equally fucked with less than a grand a month then that's what happens. It's not fair, but who said life is fair? If there's going to be an ass fucking then spread it out.
But Congress regularly BORROWS from SS [look it up!!]
"The Government Has Borrowed $1.7 Trillion From The Social Security Trust Fund. The government has borrowed the total value of the Trust Fund to pay for other government spending."
That's how FASA works now. That and a lot of lying your ass off.
The most obvious is not raising the age, which of course will punish the average worker, is to means test. Say it with me, means test social security, put it on a sliding scale
Spare me the cries of unfairness, please, nothing about the gaping wealth gap is fair.
Say you've got two people who have had the same income throughout their entire lives.
One sets ten percent aside starting with their first paycheck. The other spends it all.
Come retirement age, that frugal person will have wealth. The spendthrift will not. There will be a gaping wealth gap between the two. How is that unfair? What's fair about punishing the former and rewarding the latter?
As long as you aren't putting the large family not saving because they are taking care of their kids...you see, in most societies before abortion and homosexuality impaired everything, a large family was 'social security'!!!!
Let's test this with the Black Community
The abortion rate is almost 6X the non-Black
You say "wait, that is necessary for the health of the poor family--- but actually it destroyed that family
Despite the grand myth that black economic progress began or accelerated with the passage of the civil rights laws and “war on poverty” programs of the 1960s, the cold fact is that the poverty rate among blacks fell from 87 percent in 1940 to 47 percent by 1960. This was before any of those programs began.
Over the next 20 years, the poverty rate among blacks fell another 18 percentage points, compared to the 40-point drop in the previous 20 years. This was the continuation of a previous economic trend, at a slower rate of progress, not the economic grand deliverance proclaimed by liberals and self-serving black “leaders.”
…..
Nearly a hundred years of the supposed “legacy of slavery” found most black children [78%] being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent [66%].
The most obvious answer is to let me opt out and not have 12.4% of my pay (the 6.2% stolen for me, and the 6.2% stolen from my employer) stolen by the federal government.
If I'm allowed to opt-out, I'm willing to write-off all the money already stolen from me and not file for Social Security when eligible. Just stopping stealing from me in the future.
The FTC is suing Amazon because people who voluntarily signed up for Amazon Prime can't cancel with a single click on the Amazon website.
Using Lina Khan's logic, I should be able to sue the federal government because 35 years ago I was involuntarily, and against my will, forced to join a giant Ponzi scheme if I chose to work, and I can't find the "Cancel Now" button on the website for the Social Security Administration or Department of Health and Human Services websites and every letter I have written on annual basis, on the anniversary of my first paycheck for the past 30 years to the Secretary of Heath and Human Services asking to be allowed to opt-out has gone unanswered.
Charles Ponzi, Bernie Madoff, and every elected member of the federal government since August 14, 1935 all have one thing in common: running a giant Ponzi scheme. The only difference is Ponzi and Madoff ended up in prison.
Not sure when someone will “fix” Social Security. But the idea of a federal welfare program for elderly Americans is exactly what Social Security started as. It then morphed into the retirement plan for all Americans, funded like a welfare program, that all Americans assume it to be.
When abortion and same -sex non-marriages came in this was boudn to result. Even divorce...let me illustrate as it might be less inflammatory and more convincing
================
Liu and his research assistant, Yu, started with the obvious--that divorce rates across the globe are on the rise. Housing units, even if they have few people in them, require resources to construct them and the units take up space and require fuel to heat and cool them. Within a unit, a refrigerator uses roughly the same amount of energy whether it belongs to a family of four or a family of two.
When Liu and Yu calculated the cost in terms of increased utilities and unused housing space per capita, they discovered that divorce eliminates economies of scale. Among the findings:
In the United States alone in 2005, divorced households used 73 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity and 627 billion gallons of water that could have been saved had household size remained the same as that of married households. Thirty-eight million extra rooms were needed with associated costs for heating and lighting.
Between 1998 and 2002, in the United States and 11 other countries (among them Brazil, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Greece, Mexico and South Africa), if divorced households had combined to attain the same average household size as married households, there could have been 7.4 million fewer households in these countries.
Around the year 2000, the numbers of divorced households in the 12 countries ranged from 40,000 in Costa Rica to almost 16 million in the United States.
In divorced households the number of rooms per person was 33 to 95 percent greater than that in married households.
Transition to a Singapore-style social insurance program.
Every worker is forced to invest a small percentage of their income into a private savings account, which is matched with government tax dollars.
That private savings account is the individual's property and can be spent upon retirement, transferred to heirs upon death, etc.
The government match is to make sure no one has absolutely nothing at retirement.
It is still coercive but it is probably the most feasible libertarian-ish option that we can hope for.
If it’s money in savings then it’s going to be consumed by inflation.
If the money is invested, then the government will probably claim control of what it bought with its match. At least the people in our government will. Now the government has an ownership claim in whatever companies peoples’ retirement is invested in. I don’t like where this is going.
Here is a brief synopsis:
https://www.aseanbriefing.com/doing-business-guide/singapore/human-resources-and-payroll/social-insurance
I was wrong, the match is not government money, it is from the employer. So it is structured much like our FICA tax is now. But it goes into a private account. That is the key.
They force people to put money into different accounts, and tell them when and how they may spend it. Kind of like my HSA (pre-tax Health Savings Account, may only spend on health-related stuff), except mandatory, along with similar accounts for investing and retirement. All mandatory. I don’t like that mandatory piece of it.
The government match is to make sure no one has absolutely nothing at retirement.
If you put in nothing, the match would be nothing, and you would end up with nothing.
I was a little general in describing it. See the link above.
Then you are too young to remember VP Gore's plan to put social security in the STOCK MARKET @!!!!!!!!
and he got stupider with time....
After spending what his advisers called "a fortune" on polling, Vice President Al Gore decided he had to come up with a retirement saving proposal to counter Gov. George W. Bush's. Sadly, it would do nothing to help save or strengthen the Social Security system. Indeed, not only did Mr. Gore promise to leave Social Security, with its unfunded liability of $8.8 trillion, unchanged; he promised during the spring to increase benefits. According to the Social Security Administration and even some of Mr. Gore's supporters, these additional promises appear to increase the actuarial deficit by 30%, meaning Social Security will go broke sooner.
Transition to a revolution where the left is largely imprisoned, dead, or exiled. Nothing gets fixed until that happens.
Raising the retirement age is not realistic. Most people are not physically capable of continuing to do their jobs into their 70s, and even if they're willing and able, employers willing to hire them are very scarce. Hell, if your over 50 or 55, a prolonged spell of unemployment means your days in the workforce are generally over, let alone in your late 60s. Raising the retirement age to 67 has resulted in a huge increase in people with "disabilities" continuing on the dole in a different way, wiping out much of the savings. The only realistic way forward is to scrap Social Security and replace it with a means-tested welfare program for the elderly.
That is probably preferable. But I think you also need to consider the large increase in life expectancy since the 65 retirement age was created. Many people can't keep working in the same capacity past that age, but many people can. I think people need to reassess the idea that we are entitled to 20 years of comfy retirement. If that's what you want or need, then plan for it. For people incapable of planning or saving enough, maybe some kind of safety net is appropriate.
There's a lot of ground between destitute and "comfy".
many people can.
Some people can, but I would quibble against "many". And as I said above, even those able and willing to work in old age are very unlikely to be hired by anyone.
I'm heading into retirement and have been spending a lot more time lately with my recently-retired (and some not-so-recently) friends. None of them have had any particular trouble finding suitable employment. Personally, I have a stack of job offers that I am declining.
What actual evidence do you have of rampant agism in hiring?
https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/february/age-discrimination-and-hiring-older-workers/
https://duckduckgo.com/?hps=1&q=age+discrimination+lawsuit&atb=v331-1&ia=web
But that is one problem solved by another problem. It can't be good for you eventually that people are droppinig out of the workforce, schools are turning out stupid proto-criminals, and 1/4 of American males grow up with no father.
I suspect the problem is less about age and more about hitting the health insurance plan real hard. After 30 the warranty runs out and your body starts going to shit. That costs money and Medicare doesn't want to pick up the tab if you've got another payer option. So maybe they hire you at 65. Then when something goes boom the insurance company gets creative and management wants your ass out.
Sure, so have a safety net for the truly destitute.
And I'm sticking with many (if not most). People are generally still pretty healthy and capable at 65 or 67 these days. Maybe people who do hard physical labor. But for sure most people doing professional or office work or retail could keep working into their 70s.
You’re out of touch. Retail is grueling for old people. Most workers are not “professionals” sitting at a desk.
And retail employers are not understanding about the need to sit down and rest the feet more than every 4 hours. I can't stay on my feet that long. I can work, I can sell, I can't stand all day.
It will be government forced euthanasia if Obama is any clue.
Now the stupid and lazy Biden is being told what to do by Obama, so learn a lesson here
"The original Obamacare bill created a new board, later dubbed a death panel. Ostensibly, its task was to evaluate the cost-effectiveness of new and existing drugs and treatments. Its unstated premise was that the U.S. was spending too much money to keep patients alive who were going to die soon anyway and on prolonging people’s lives that were deemed to be of low quality because of pain and discomfort. Fierce opposition ultimately put the kibosh on the board"
Reason left out the respond from the SS head, a former democrat governor. No cuts or changes, plus low income workers should have 12 weeks pay time off.
High income I guess get to suck it.
I just read an article from a retirement manager. His view, and they said 70 was the age, that people would have to plan more for retirement with their 401k. RMDs can be taken earlier. Everyone is leaving out that you can take 401k at 59 1/2. You don't have to take SS right away. If your 401k gets you to 70, than SS can keep you going.
Now they need to stop government employees retiring at 56 and getting a full pension
High income I guess get to suck it.
I'm just fine with affluent people "sucking it" so that people who have worked low-paying jobs all their lives don't freeze to death sleeping under a bridge. The quality of life of affluent people is dependent on low-income people doing their jobs. Shut up and pay up.
I’m just fine with affluent people “sucking it” so that people who have worked low-paying jobs all their lives don’t freeze to death sleeping under a bridge.
You also have the option of opening your home to the "people who have worked low-paying jobs all their lives" and offering them a bed so they "don’t freeze to death sleeping under a bridge".
I've done that.
Uh huh. Sure you have.
Just get rid of the left
How many leftists did you kill today?
*sigh*…….. not nearly enough.
It will have to be a group effort.
No, that is not at all a fact. Affluent folks would be affluent no matter what. If anyting --- even on your premises --- the first thing to do would be stem the flow of those illegal low-income immigrants who are propping up the bad economics of things. Bezos is wealthy due to Morlocks working to death for gruel in the warehouses.
Another Hank. Wonderful.
Maybe not doing things like hiring 87k new IRS agents would help too.
A few well placed nuclear bombs will fix the problem. DC, for sure. Chicago, Atlanta, just enough to thin out the ranks of current and future useless eaters. A solution so obvious yet it never seems to come up.
Of course the voters in the selected shitholes won't like it, but once the solution has been implemented their votes won't be a problem either.
A modest proposal...
No, sorry, not that many people on here have read SWIFT
But I am curious what would make you think so 🙂
Doesn't even work as a fake plan. With any solution from nuking to Black Death there will always be a ruthless underclass because the lowest in society always attract the powerful sophistical Democrat pollitician. Nuke New ORleans but the Latoya's are everywhere., They just go look for the nearest city of malcontents.
YOU must have seen this last year
Of USA's 30 Most Dangerous Cities, 27 Are Run By Democrats
A few alternative ideas so SS can stay solvent under current rules:
1. Use other assets the US has to pay benefits. I would be happy to consider some federal real estate in lieu of cash. How much is an acre on the south rim of the Grand Canyon worth?
2. Start a bounty program. Anyone eligible for benefits can have those enhanced if they "retire" another beneficiary. Let them keep 10% of the amount retired.
3. Create and release a highly contagious virus that only kills people over 65. Oh, wait...
Offer a significant tax incentive to the children of people who die before their 65th birthday.
Problem solved.
Implementing ANY alternative is not remaining, or even becoming solvent "under current rules".
A version of 2 where we can hunt democrats for their scalps sounds pretty good.
If we are going to move towards managing our own retirement funds then I would like to see the contributions that were paid in be given to those seniors based on theirs personal and employer contributions. As to those to never contributed I don't know how we account for them.
Social Security, as with EVERY "defined benefit" scheme, is inherently unsustainable. The amount that must be set aside to cover the eventual costs CANNOT be known until years, if not decades after the funds need to be set aside. The data required to calculate needed funding DOES NOT EXIST when the funding is required.
I propose raising the eligibility age by 6 months EVERY YEAR until it is double the expected life expectancy. Until NO ONE expects to draw ANYTHING from the program, it will remain unable to meet expectations.
I was disappointed in much of the article, and commentary.
SSA is not going away. No one wants to see a million Grandma's and Grandpa's scrounging for food in the streets. And that would absolutely happen without SSA. Lose the idea that SSA magically disappears.
To address SSA, it will require multi-part approach. I would see something like this.
For people 55+, the program will not change.
For people 18-54. the program will be a hybrid program.
For people starting new W2 income, they will be in new program.
New program would be private, regulated by Fed Gov. Private investment into broad based, low cost index funds: Tot US Mkt, Tot Intl Mkt. Tot US Bond, Tot Intl Bond available at Vanguard, Fidelity or other private providers. Could there be other funds? Yes. The account would be funded by tax revenues (like today). The Fed TSP looks pretty good to me as a model. Upon issuance of an SSA number (usually right around birth), a 10K deposit (from the government) would be made to the childs private retirement account. Money could be invested in a target date fund for simplicity.
Funding: Tax revenues. Could see an inc on employer side to 7.8%. Would also increase the amount of income subject to taxation.
Retirement age: Medical technology will change the game. Move retirement age up to 70 by year 2100 (76 years from now). Maybe tie retirement age to average life expectancy in a formal way.
Means Testing: Yes. Many ways to do this.
Are benefits taxable on withdrawal, death? No. Acts like a Roth IRA. You already paid the tax.
Where we can, we should use existing architecture. It is not hard, but would require considerable political will. Of the many reasons to be disappointed with 'W' - this is at the top of the list. The 'W' had the chance to reform SSA (with Team D participation) and blew it (invaded Iraq instead). It was very close.
Your comment on the comments shows you don't get the problemat all
1) One thing a welfare state absolutely undeniably importantly must have is a population growth the opposite of ours. Not only have over 7 million men left the workforce, the supply of workers is crashing.
2) SS is 1/4 of our crushing growing debt.
3) Messing with retirement is AVOIDING the issue. It will delay but only to make the final problem that must be faced almost unsolvable It's like driniking lots of beer to deal with your depression
After watching Biden for 40 years , two things are supremely at the top of his loathable traits : He is goddam lazy , he takes a break from taking a break...and he is godawful stupid. One sign of which is not that he says stupid things often but that he hears himself say them and does zero. "Two words : Made in America"
I'm been a Libertarian (even a party member) for decades but I'm opposed to raising the benefit age because I don't want the government holding on to my money one minute longer! Let me cash out and take all my contributions now.
If you ever want to have any hope of that you should aggressively vote against all democrats.
SS going bankrupt is not a bug, it's a feature. SS bankruptcy will be used as the "crisis" necessitating a guaranteed minimum income.
SS is based on lies. First, your employer contributes nothing, it's all your money that gets sent to the Feds. If tomorrow, your net pay was the same but now your employer pays all of the SS money would that mean that SS is now free to you? Accounting tricks are in place to fool the ignorant. In a private transaction, this kind of deception would lead to prison.
Second, there is no SS Trust Fund. Trust funds are what rich people leave their children. The implication of a SS Trust Fund is that the money is set aside for you. If a rich person set up a trust fund for his kids and then spent it all on fast women and slow horses, he would be justifiably beaten to death by his kids.
Third, the funds are used to finance government spending on everything from unusable weapons to sex change operations. These get more votes than paying money to the richest segment of the population, the elderly.
Fourth, this is a wealth transfer scheme that robs relatively poor young people to provide hobby money to the relatively rich older people.
All these lies, and yet Republicans and Democrats agree that SS is a sacred trust, when the truth is that to them, sacred means getting reelected.
Step One seems to be make the re election of representatives a non issue, one term only for everyone in both the house and senate. Step Two should be filling those positions in a lottery. Everyone with a driver's license is entered and just like lotto ball machines one night in November every state randomly selects a handful of drivers license numbers to fill the national government seats they are responsible for.
Thus we have a batch of people who don't want the job and aren't even going to be able to get rehired at the end of the term. Political favors become useless, no campaigns means no campaign donations. State level politicos will likely never find their way to Washington so their loyalty will return to the state and its people.
That's better than what we've got.
I was thinking today of ways to redo discretionary spending. Of course I focused on my personal hobby horse, the DoD. I was thinking that we should revise an idea first utilized under the Adams administration. Whoa now, hear me out, even terrible presidents sometimes have good ideas. It's actually kind of idea that predates the US and extends back to medieval England in a way. The idea of ships money. My proposal would be a one time importation tariff of 1% on all imported goods at the point of importation. This money would be specifically earmarked each year to the DoD budget, and this would be the only money dedicated to the DoD. All excess money beyond the DoD budget would be split, with half going into a wartime savings account, that could only be used when Congress declared war as described in the Constitution. The other half would be utilized to service the debt. Additionally, I would reform procurement in the DoD to authorize and mandate future contracting, e.g. if we need 120 new fighters, we would sign a contract with Acme aerospace (generic name for a provider) to purchase 20 fighters a year for six years. We, the government, would pay a contract fee of say 25% up front and guarantee purchase of 20 airframes a year, with a guarantee of 120 purchased, and pay the remainder of the costs each year on delivered airframes (or tanks, rifles, ships whatever). This would allow suppliers to plan and prepurchase needed equipment, as well as tool up needed assembly lines etc. This would actually reduce the cost per unit, while providing the industry more stability (no more tooling up to deliver x number of units only to have Congress cut the demand to y number of units the next year or cancel at a moments notice). This would strengthen our military and reduce costs, while simplifying discretionary spending on Defense. I also would state no income taxes or other taxes, besides those collected through the designated tariff could be utilized for defense spending, and the money collected in this tariff could only be utilized in the three categories designated (i.e. defense spending, war funding, and debt servicing) further priority would be given specifically to the first category, with the second and third only being utilized if there exists a surplus. Things like counter-piracy would be factored into operations costs, and not a separate spending. If we wanted to make it fairer we could also look at some form of export tariff. Maybe split the costs between import and export tariffs but the combined tariff could not exceed 1% per unit imported/exported combined.
We could also look at targeted T bonds for different programs, with the caveat that 2/3 of all bonds must be sold domestically. This would allow Americans to voluntarily spend money on the programs they most support. So say you think supporting agriculture is important, you could spend your own money to purchase USDA bonds targeted to supporting farmers. We could designate that x percentage of costs of said programs must be derived from sales of bonds, and that if bond sales are under target the overall budget for said program would be cut commiserate with the actual sale of said bonds. This would allow citizens to designate with their own money what programs they most support. I would allow the rich and the corporations to purchase said bonds as well, so that they can virtue signal with their own money. Of course this would require servicing on the bonds, but I would suggest say the option of one year, five year, ten year and twenty five year maturing bonds (with the option to roll over bonds and just the pay out of interest or roll over it all). I would pair this with drastic cuts to income tax, payroll taxes and corporate taxes, and overall simplification of taxes. I would offer non-discretionary programs like Welfare, SNAP, food stamps etc as the first issues of said bonds. It would make these programs more voluntary charity programs. Of course in a perfect world I would eliminate payroll and income taxes, but I'm pragmatic enough to see this is, at least in the short term, probably not completely workable. However, the selling of bonds would allow us to better control the growth of these programs, while also allowing citizens to direct more how they want their money to spent.
I grant this wouldn't eliminate the national debt, but it would restore a good portion of it, and curb deficit spending as it sets a roof on how much the government can budget. It would also encourage austerity, as it would constrain spending based upon how many bonds the government is capable of selling.
Maybe a national emergency bond could be created, that would be utilized to create a rainy day fund to be utilized in a national emergency as designated by 2/3 of both houses and approved by the president. I can see a mechanism where twenty percent of the states (or some other percentage) petition the federal government to declare a national emergency. Then provide some time frame in which Congress must vote on the designation and then vote on what percentage of the fund can be utilized. Additionally, it would allow a similar but larger percentage of the states to submit a counter petition (if we use 20% to initiate it, say 25% could counter petition). And all designations would be authorized for one fiscal year, and extension would require the same procedures to renew.
If we can cut spending enough, and quit letting democrats and RINOs strangle the economy, revenues should grow to pass expenditures in a fairly finite amount of time.
The easiest way to cut spending is to target and Eli I ate all tehCOVID spending that got baked into the annual budget.
This is something libertarians need to understand. If you care about governance Republicans are the only option. Democrats understand only two options: demagoguery and buying votes. Many people who style themselves libertarians are the same, like ENB, Jeffey, and sarc. But anyone serious understands Democrats have nothing productive to offer.
Ha.
Republicans bend over when Democrats crack the whip. They bend over when the Democrats get the whip out. Hell, if a Democrat points to the cabinet where the whip is kept Republicans bend over. Why vote for a Republican who is just going to give in to whatever the Democrats want?
The only purpose Republicans serve is as an excuse for the failure of Democrat policies. Whenever shit goes wrong with any of the crap the Democrats pass they blame Republicans who roll over and take the blame like good little bitches.
The best we can seriously hope for is to elect all the Democrats so there are no Republicans to blame for the failures. Then when the nation is spinning down the Crapper at least people will learn that socialism fucking doesn't work anywhere anytime.
Get rid of the RINO’s and it won’t work that way.
Kind of hard to do when you guys keep re electing the so called RINOs. I wonder who the real RINOs are these days. Seems like there are damn few small government types who want to cut spending to balance the budget. Seems like a lot of backstabbing cunts run the party. Are those the real Republicans?
Sen. Josh Hawley (R–Mo.)??? LOL. Wasn’t that Reasons save-all got-to guy just a few months back?
“go to working people and say, ‘Congratulations, you have paid into this your whole life—your payroll taxes—and now we’re going to take part of it away from you”
HELLO!!!! Where does this retard come from? Where did anyone think the COVID stimulus checks were going to come from? ‘Guns’ don’t make sh*t….
Hawley is no “Republican”. He thinks just like a leftard. Yet another RINO Reason uses to play the “boaf sidez” game. Ironically the same one Reason was championing not long ago.
The author should have laid out a bit more of the key point of the structural dilemma. Social Security has become an obsession when it was anticipated that developed countries had less children and that populations would saturate.
Social Security is base on a pyramidal distribution, this is why many critics call it a Ponzi scheme. It works as long as you can feed the bottom with new money to feed the top layers.
If the bottom layer stabilizes or contracts, than there is not enough money to pay the top what they were contractually promised. The system is Jeopardized.
Current retiring age 67. New and ameliorated like expectancy of a male post Covid 76 years old. So currently the SS system is only liable to pay for 9 years a maximum of $4,700 USD, for a total $42,300 USD. A bit than was contributed. By raising the age to 69 this total payment amount would become $33,900 USD, less that a working man earning less that the capped amount of contribution contributed all of his life...
Social Security is a safety net, we know how societies without safety nets plunge into savagery.
We have also leaned that self funded retirement saving accounts fail to meet retirement obligations... in fact it's surrendering your money to wall street instead of government.
The Federal Reserve's Survey of Consumer Finance finds that 2/3s of Americans get to retirement age in a state of dramatic under funding.
And yet somehow for years and years and years and years before FDR started the armed-theft ponzi scheme retirement went just fine.
You can keep your retirement savings anywhere you want and call that place 'government' if you want to feel all cozy about its name. You have ZERO right to STEAL/FORCE others to pay for it though. You are stating nothing but BS excuses to commit crimes against your fellow man.
Well, to be fair in the early 1900s most men died at work. If they did well their wives would own the house and they would have had savings to cover her expenses until she died, then the kids divided up the leftovers.
Who could have expected in the 1930s that we'd extend human lifespans so long in such a short period of time. That and the extended years tend to be the adult diapers and handful of medication ones, not productive years where you make more money than than you cost to keep alive.
Paraphrased: Humans make progress that 'I' need to STEAL.
No [WE] didn't extend human lifespans. People of the medical industry did for years until all the motivation was lost to the ?free? ponies line.
THEFT is a zero-sum resources game.
I am alive because the medical and pharmaceutical industries developed reliable organ transplant methods that were not even science fiction in 1930. I am on medications for problems that were beyond medical science to even understand in 1930. Problems that probably would have killed me before now.
Thus I am alive now at over 50 when if I were born in the early 1900s I would be dead before I reached 40 because of my medical issues. I would have contributed to SSI but never collected.
There. Does that way of writing the same fucking thing soothe your raging vagina?
Or put more bluntly.
If you think the 'progress' of your fellow man is yours for the taking your retirement plan should be within the walls of a prison (criminal correction) facility.
The progress of my fellow man is mine to BUY from them if they wish to sell it.
Often times when writing posts we use literary conventions to prevent having to write paragraphs of explanatory text because we figure folks will understand what we mean.
Clearly you are an idiot who thinks the use of “we” means I am claiming to have been involved with every scientific discovery over the last 10,000 years of human history. Which is obviously impossible so clearly my use of “we” is the general we of humanity.
Also I'd have to be WAY fucking old to have been working on our scientific processes since 1930.
I suspect everyone else understood the meaning. But because you’re special i take this time to explain.
Need more people to die before they get benefits. That's the only answer they have to save the failing immoral ponzi scheme.
Only one way to have future financial security. Savings and investment. Need to let young people out of their indentured servitude.