SCOTUS Is Troubled by the Claim That States Can Disqualify Trump From the Election As an Insurrectionist
Most of the justices are clearly inclined to reject a Colorado Supreme Court decision asserting that power under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.

Judging from last week's oral arguments in Trump v. Anderson, the Supreme Court will reject the claim that he is disqualified from running for president under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment because he "engaged in insurrection" by inciting the Capitol riot on January 6, 2021. The only real question is which of several possible rationales will attract a majority of the justices.
Section 3, which was aimed at preventing former Confederates from returning to public office after the Civil War, says: "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
In December, the Colorado Supreme Court ruled that Section 3 barred Trump from that state's presidential primary ballot. But the issue of how to interpret and apply Section 3 in the context of a presidential election raises a bunch of questions that courts had not previously addressed. The one that attracted the most attention during Thursday's oral arguments was whether states have the authority to enforce Section 3.
Justices Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh emphasized the lack of historical evidence that states can independently apply Section 3. Jason Murray, the lawyer representing the Colorado voters who challenged Trump's inclusion on the ballot, said he could offer just one example: In 1868, John H. Christy was elected as a Georgia congressman, but Rufus Bullock, the state's Republican governor, concluded that Christy was disqualified under Section 3 and instead certified his opponent, John Wimpy, as the winner. A House committee later found that Wimpy also was disqualified because he had served in the Confederate army, and neither man was seated.
Murray said "it's not surprising that there are few examples" because the election process was different back then: Since voters either cast a ballot for a party or wrote in a candidate's name, "there wouldn't have been a process for determining before an election whether a candidate was qualified." But Thomas was unsatisfied with that explanation. Since "there were a plethora of Confederates still around" in the 1870s, he said, there should "at least be a few examples of national candidates being disqualified if your reading is correct."
Kavanaugh echoed Thomas' point, noting that the power Colorado is asserting had been "dormant for 155 years." The year after the 14th Amendment was ratified, he noted, Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, acting as the circuit justice for Virginia, ruled that Section 3 had to be implemented via the congressional action authorized by Section 5 of the 14th Amendment. That means "Congress has the authority here, not the states," Kavanaugh said. And in 1870, Congress approved the Enforcement Act, which aimed to implement the 14th Amendment by protecting voting rights. "There's no history contrary in that period," Kavanaugh said, and "as Justice Thomas pointed out, there's no history contrary in all the years leading up to this of states exercising such authority." That suggests, he said, "a settled understanding" that Chase "was essentially right."
Chief Justice John Roberts noted that "the whole point of the 14th Amendment was to restrict state power." The amendment says states may not "abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens," "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law," or deny anyone "the equal protection of the laws." And Section 5 says "Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." Given the wording and aims of the 14th Amendment, Roberts said, "wouldn't that be the last place that you'd look for authorization for the states, including Confederate states" to regulate "the presidential election process" by deciding which candidates are disqualified under Section 3? That position, he suggested, is "at war with the whole thrust of the 14th Amendment and very ahistorical."
Justice Elena Kagan also was uncomfortable with the idea that "a single state should decide who gets to be president of the United States." The question of "whether a former president is disqualified for insurrection to be president again," she said, "sounds awfully national to me," which suggests that "whatever means there are to enforce it" would "have to be federal, national means."
Justice Amy Coney Barrett shared Kagan's concern. "You say that we have to review Colorado's factual record with 'clear error' as the standard of review," she told Murray. "So we would be stuck….We're stuck with that record." The deference that approach would require, Barrett said, underlines "this point that Justice Kagan was making" that "it just doesn't seem like a state call."
Similarly, Justice Samuel Alito worried about "a cascading effect" in which "the decision by a single judge whose factual findings are given deference, maybe an elected trial judge, would have potentially an enormous effect on the candidates who run for president across the country." Roberts raised the possibility that "a goodly number of states" might decide to reject Democratic as well as Republican candidates, meaning that "it'll come down to just a handful of states that are going to decide the presidential election," which is "a pretty daunting consequence."
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson wondered whether the presidency qualifies as "an office…under the United States" within the meaning of Section 3. In the part of Section 3 that refers to offices from which insurrectionists are barred, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson noted, "you have a list, and 'president' is not on it." She suggested it was unlikely that the Framers would have "smuggled" that "high and significant and important office" via a "catch-all phrase." Regarding the question of which prior office holders are covered by Section 3, Justice Neil Gorsuch noted that Article II charges the president with commissioning "all the Officers of the United States," which suggests that category does not include the president.*
By contrast, the question of whether the January 6 riot qualified as an "insurrection" and whether Trump "engaged in" it barely came up. "For an insurrection, there needs to be an organized, concerted effort to overthrow the government of the United States through violence," Jonathan Mitchell, the lawyer representing Trump, said in response to a question from Jackson. "This was a riot. It was not an insurrection. The events were shameful, criminal, violent, all of those things, but it did not qualify as insurrection as that term is used in Section 3."
Murray, by contrast, opened his argument by placing Trump at the center of an insurrection. "We are here because, for the first time since the War of 1812, our nation's Capitol came under violent assault," he said. "For the first time in history, the attack was incited by a sitting president of the United States to disrupt the peaceful transfer of presidential power. By engaging in insurrection against the Constitution, President Trump disqualified himself from public office."
But that was pretty much it on the subject, aside from Kavanaugh's allusion to the fact that Trump, despite facing numerous criminal charges, was never charged with insurrection under 18 USC 2383. In addition to a possible prison sentence of up to 10 years, a conviction under that statute makes the defendant "incapable of holding any office under the United States." If the concern is that "insurrectionists should not be able to hold federal office," Kavanaugh told Murray, "there is a tool to ensure that that does not happen—namely, federal prosecution of insurrectionists."
*CORRECTION: This paragraph has been revised to clarify the parts of Section 3 that Jackson and Gorsuch were discussing.
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The oral arguments went very badly for Colorado.
Given their ridiculous argument, and it’s implications, I don’t see how it could have gone well.
Thank God a fellow Black man like me was on the court to block this blatant attempt by White women to keep honorary Black man, Dear Leader, down. Why are White women always out for the Black Man?
Ask Lily von Shtupp.
It's twue, it's twue!
I'm glad that somebody got the "Blazing Saddles" reference.
we've got to do something to help keep our phoney-baloney jobs!
I didn't get a harrumph outta that guy.
Wait, where was the trigger warning?
This is why Gen X has no issues - we grew up with Mel Brooks
Buttplug doubles down.
The Orange Hitler Court wants to coerce the state where the Libertarian party formed, put ROE in its platform, and got a legitimate Supreme court to use it to strike down mystical bigot enslavement of women. How surprising! Death from childbirth dropped immediately. Male altruists hypnotized by televangelism, race-suicide sacrifices and girl-bullying will do anything to get the cops to kill women for them. Must be a source of real pride for them.
Every Hank post is nuttier than the last. When will we reach peak Hank?
I'm wondering if Hank were to speak his odd rants if he would sound better or worse than the vegetable that is Joe Biden.
Isn't it funny that the GOP is called racist, but if a black man/woman doesn't vote Democrats they are mocked, and called every name under the sun and it's ok. It's almost like the democrats thing they own them.
Democrats like to project their true feelings onto others.
One might almost get the impression that the party of the KKK had really not changed all that much.
The SCOTUS should be troubled by the idea that they can rule that Trump is an insurrectionist.
The 14th Amendment gave the SCOTUS no such authority. It specifically limited the lifting of such a label to Congress, and clearly for very late in the electoral process.
To all appearances, Congress assumed the states knew the status of their own residents better than the Supreme Court.
You make a good point. Jonathan Mitchell argued a similar point...A14 says 'hold office' not run for office. Congress can remove the disability after the election.
Trump is no worse today than when first elected, which is a very old problem -
Marcus Aurelius got it right :
Τὸ τὰ ἀδύνατα διώκειν μανικόν :
It's crazy to expect bad men not to do wrong.
Bad men like orangehitler or bad men like Merrick Garland?
Is someone claiming that they can? Seems like the only question here is whether the Colorado court has any such authority.
Perhaps most importantly, the 14th says nothing about appearing on ballots, only holding office. It really should be a no-brainer to say that it doesn't apply to presidential primaries in particular which aren't really even elections.
"Is someone claiming that they can?"
If the SCOTUS can declare that someone is not an insurrectionist under 14A, they clearly can declare that someone is.
And that is precisely the insult to 14A.
I realize that it's subtle, but the SCOTUS has not claimed that Trump is not an insurrectionist. They were pointing out for historic purposes that States had never before used that tactic and that the law would require that Trump be convicted of insurrection before it could even be considered. Asking questions does not constitute a ruling by SCOTUS.
Justice Amy Coney Barrett shared Kagan's concern. "You say that we have to review Colorado's factual record with 'clear error' as the standard of review," she told Murray. "So we would be stuck….We're stuck with that record."
If SCOTUS were to rule in favor of CO it would be a de facto finding that Trump was guilty of insurrection. I'm pretty sure that none of the judges believes that they have the authority to do that. At least at this juncture. Which reveals how ridiculous this entire lawfare comedy is. In order to find for CO the court has to accept a state court judgement of insurrection which they have no authority to do. And if they don't have that authority how could the state of Colorado somehow have it? This is all nonsense and nobody would have dreamed of insulting our collective intelligence with this bullshit prior to 2016. But TDS is a powerful drug.
If SCOTUS doesn't have the authority and the States don't have the authority then that leaves Congress? Section 5? No. Section 5 lifts a disqualification that has already been made by?? I think it clear that States, following their own election laws per Article 2, have the authority. SCOTUS can overrule if they choose but they shouldn't. And they should make clear that every State can decide this issue for themselves which is exactly what has been going on for the last few months.
States lack that authority for federal offices.
What SCOTUS ruling is that?
Did a state ever kick a federal official out of office?
...but Trump is a Black-man!!!! /s As I watch Democrats try to manipulate the 14th Amendment on it's head it's humorous to put that Amendment into the context from which it was written.
Kavanaugh is absolutely right.
What's even funnier is Trump isn't a CO resident so how is CO suppose to convict him of insurrection which they've never done. They are literally claiming the 'Black-man' can't run for federal office.
The complaint in CO was filed by a 91 year old Republican voter. Colorado is not convicting Trump and he isn't a black man. Trump applied to be on the Colorado primary ballot and attested he was qualified. Turns out he isn't. Time for GOP to find a better, non-insurrectionist candidate.
If Trump had been charged and convicted of insurrection, then the CO court could try to remove him from the ballot. It still wouldn't be a good course of action, and would likely be overturned, as there is no consensus that the 14th applies to the President. Even if it did, Congress, after Trump's victory, could vote to eliminate the penalty of not being seated--so it's not automatic that one convicted of insurrection could not hold office. So in no way should a state be able to remove Trump from the ballot, especially at this point.
This gets to the core of the issue. In order for CO to bar someone from running for federal office because on insurrection, they first need them to have been charged and convicted of insurrection. This did not happen so Trump can't be barred from election.
Still, let us suppose that that HAD happened, then the argument that the CO attorney general makes is meaningless as a convicted insurrectionist is barred from being president.
In no case does CO or any other state have jurisdiction over the matter.
Now let's deal with the insurrectionist accusation. A bevy of prosecutors particularly including Jack Smith have made a extensive number of criminal charges against Trump. To believe that Trump was reasonably guilty of insurrection, you have to believe that Jack Smith overlooked that possibility. In reality, as much as wishes he could,Jack Smith knows he could never make that case.
Orange-man, Black-man does it really matter? The entire premise is based on prejudices and biases without any legal foundation.
Wow. Nice job missing the point. If Trump, or anyone for that matter, were charged with treason and convicted in a federal district court with the due process afforded any criminal and that conviction went through the established appellate process and reached the Supreme Court they would probably have the constitutional authority to sign off on that conviction. Treason is a federal crime with a real statute enacted into law by congress. Colorado demands that the court rule on their use of the 14th to exclude Trump from the ballot while accepting their findings of fact with "clear error". The finder of facts was a low level state court judge. Trump was not charged with treason in CO or anywhere else. There was no trial on that crime. there was no due process. Trump was not allowed to enter evidence or defend himself. Because he wasn't charged with anything. You are suggesting that the court find Trump guilty of a crime he's never been charged with because some traffic court judge thinks he's an insurrectionist. Fucking clown world.
They believe there's no procedural grounds for Colorado to have come to that conclusion, but the procedural issues, for whatever reason, were not part of the appeal. They wanted this fixed as a matter of law rather than on the issues in the case.
But I don't think SCOTUS is comfortable with saying that there's a civil standard being applied to decide whether a person is guilty of a crime, especially not under the procedural rules for ballot challenges. Colorado doesn't have authority to enforce subpoenas outside of Colorado so they couldn't just subpoena tons of witnesses from Congress, from Trump's cabinet, from the Jan. 6 committee, etc. They could have sent them out on a hope and a prayer that they'd be answered but without any authority to enforce them.
Beyond that, though, the procedural issues meant they had to get everything done in 5 days of testimony so they weren't going to get a full hearing, which is why Colorado just decided that the January 6. hearing was completely admissible and could be relied upon; that was their only way to get sufficient factual evidence of "insurrection" onto the record in such a short time. But the conclusion of the Jan. 6 committee was a toothless conclusion. It meant nothing and did not lead to criminal charges for Trump.
It's all court-weaponized nonsense. Pure Lawfare.
How do you know what they (SCOTUS?) believe before the publish a decision?
I'm surmising based on the questions they asked during the hearing. Perhaps I'm wrong and they love everything about the Colorado hearing, but they seemed rather down on the process.
I sensed the same but I also thought the nature of their questions suggested they hadn't read the Colorado ruling or any of the other material. The question before them is simply did the Colorado Supreme Court err? I would home they would study the ruling very carefully before making any decision.
The justices were leaning that states do not have the power to judge the qualifications of federal office.
this can not be a power reserved to the states if they never had that power in the first place.
This is not like states judge the qualifications of state offices. They have broad authority, sunbject to a few constitutional constraints. They never had the power to judge the eligibity of a federal office.
So, under this view, the Colorado district court had no jurisdiction to judge the question of a Section 3 qualification of a federal office. And the Colorado Supreme Court erred in not vacating the district court's judgment.
Because a first year law student would laugh this case out of the Court.
The Justices are adept at manipulating plain language to political advantage, but they are not miracle workers.
The issue is not the validity of the finding of insurrection/insurrectionist, it is whether or not the state is empowered to consider Section 3 when evaluating a candidate’s acceptability for the state ballot.
There is no evidence that the authors of 14A intended to prohibit anyone at the state level from doing such a thing, and lots of evidence that that is exactly what they intended.
If the SCOTUS can declare that someone is not an insurrectionist under 14A, they clearly can declare that someone is.
Have they declared you to be "not an insurrectionist?" Have they declared Biden to be "not an insurrectionist?"
How is it that anybody is on the ballot?
BS manipulation. They are declaring the States don't have the authority to implement the procedures of the US Constitution. It's not the CO Constitution.
Anyone without a legal accusation of insurrection/insurrectionism has no requirement to be accused of that in order to be presumed not guilty of that.
Perhaps you've heard the expression "presumed innocent until proven guilty."
I miss those days of innocent until proven guilty. Now it's guilty until proven innocent. Especially if you don't have a (D) in your title.
If they don't like you, we are close to even skipping the nuisance of CHARGING you with a crime. Good to remember that Trump has not only not be convicted, he has not been CHARGED!
Whether it applies to primaries is inconsequential, at this point. The question will amount to whether he’s on ballots in the general election.
No presidential candidate is on the ballot in the general election, only presidential Electors. And the Electors are already banned by the 14th Amendment if THEY, not the presidential candidate, engaged in insurrection.
The 14th doesn't apply *directly* to appearing on ballots. But states have laws saying who can be on those ballots, and often (but not always) those laws say you must be eligible to the office.
The 14th Amendment also gave the Colorado SC no authority to declare someone an insurrectionist outside of the due process of a criminal court which is what Kavanough was getting at in the quote at the end of the article.
The 14th Amendment, which helps enforce due process, would allow an appellate court to make a finding of guilt that strips a person of their rights of citizenship? That does not make sense.
The argument is that Article 2 give States the authority to govern elections and as a result to decide who is qualified or not. If not the States then who would decide? Colorado Election Law has disqualified many candidates using the same process. I don't see why Trump is special. Just a citizen. He engaged in an insurrection hence not qualified. Find another candidate.
What did he do to engage in insurrection precisely? What what was the exact thing or things he did that were insurrection?
I could answer but reading what a Court has to say about it would be more instructive. Read the Colorado Supreme Court ruling.
Why should he bother reading an incompetent ruling by politician activists in robes that's about to be roundly reversed , ossobly unanimously, the the US Supreme Court ?
He should read it so he is fully informed. You should read it too.
I read it, Slickrick, but I suspect you didn’t, because they don’t outline what he did that qualifies as insurrection. And of course the didn’t because he was never found guilty of insurrection. They just claim that he was insurrectiony.
You lazy shills always think you can just bluff your way out here.
Now quit evading and answer what he did to engage in insurrection precisely? What what was the exact thing or things Trump did that were insurrection?
I read it quite carefully. Every page. Referring him to the source document isn't laziness or evading.
You’re lying. You haven’t read it because nowhere in the ruling does it mention what he did to engage in ‘insurrection’. Not once.
Again, quit evading and answer what he did to engage in insurrection precisely. What what was the exact thing or things Trump did that were insurrection?
If you're so sure he committed insurrection, and you insist your not a shill, then you should have a clearly defined idea of what he did that was insurrectionist.
Michael Tracey and Glenn Greenwald read it.
Section Five of the Fourteenth Amendment vests Congress with the authority to adopt “appropriate” legislation to enforce the other parts of the Amendment. They did that via the federal statute criminalizing insurrection. No conviction under that statute = no disqualification for insurrection by a leftist judge from, say, Boulder, CO (or anyone else besides a federal court) who made alleged factual findings that purport to end that issue for all time.
No, it was only for Colorado not for anywhere else or for all time. I suppose SCOTUS can make that ruling they so choose.
Full faith and credit - no doubt many states with like-minded judges would be eager to adopt the CO decision as settled under the full faith and credit doctrine.
And many will reject it as they already have. GOP can do the math. If they need a different candidate so be it.
When he's convicted of a criminal charge including insurrection which holds up on appeal (a DC Jury would convict him for the Lincoln and JFK assassinations if a prosecutor there could indict him for it), then he's at the point where 14A would apply.
If calling a member of the opposing party's electoral victory "invalid" amounts to insurrection, then every Democrat in Congress who was in office in 2019 could be considered to have done the same, and to be part of a coup intended to undo the result of the 2016 election. A charge of "obstruction" kind of loses some luster once it's revealed that the basis for the investigation which was supposedly obstructed was fabricated from whole cloth by the Presidential campaign run by the same party as the Congressional caucus bringing the impeachment.
The standard for removing a candidate from the ballot ought to be very high indeed, if one is concerned about "protecting democracy."
And saying that a candidate who questioned the accuracy of the previous election is engaging in insurrection, and therefore can't even run the next time, no matter how popular he or she is, seems to fly in the face of the stated aim, the ideals of the United States of America, and common sense. Russia or North Korea could maybe make such a claim without blushing, not America.
Go back and read Section1. It's right before Section 2. Due process must be followed before denying anyone their life, liberty, or property. The liberty to run for political office ought to be one of the most cherished liberties, and among the hardest to strip.
The argument is that Article 2 give States the authority to govern elections and as a result to decide who is qualified or not.
For state-level offices, not federal. Colorado can decide who is eligible for state legislators and executive elected officials. They cannot declare someone ineligible for federal office, just as they cannot declare someone ineligible to hold offices in any other state.
If not the States then who would decide?
The United States Congress.
Colorado Election Law has disqualified many candidates using the same process. I don’t see why Trump is special.
Trump isn't running for a state-level office in Colorado. Colorado has never declared a candidate for President disqualified for that position.
Just a citizen. He engaged in an insurrection hence not qualified. Find another candidate.
The Civil War is over, and nobody alive has fought for the Confederacy, so we now have an official statute to charge people suspected of insurrection. Trump hasn't been convicted (let alone charged) for committing insurrection under federal law. Declaring him so is the same as declaring someone a murderer and then marching them off to the electric chair. Find another argument, perhaps one that doesn't abridge due process.
It is a FEDERAL crime to promote or participate in an insurrection. There is no CO crime of insurrection. To enforce a electability ban on an insurrectionist, due process requires at minimum someone, somewhere, charge and convict the insurrectionist.
Congress, even via a committee hearing, does not have the ability to charge and convict someone of a crime. This is why congress passes items such as "contempt of congress" charges over to the DOJ. They do not have authority to do anything else.
From a legal vantagepoint, a CO court just adopting a House Committee hearing opinion as evidence in mass never made sense. And that is on top of the lack of due process in House committee hearings. Not only did they bar witness' they did not want to hear, they barred Committee members that might have disagreed with the majority.
14/3 does not say that Congress has exclusive power to declare someone ineligable.
It explicitly gives congress the authority to enforce the amendment.
Enforce is not the same as enable. Section 5 is for enforcement if needed. Section 3 was the law of the land the day it was ratified. No one need wait for Congress to "enforce" it.
CO is about to lose that argument 9-0. Or 8-1 if they convinced the wise Latina.
It should be 9-0 to affirm. i expect nothing less but I also expect to be disappointed.
You are arguing the 14th in the same manner Hawaii argued the 2A.
"I don't like Trump/guns, therefore the amendments mean whatever I say they mean. I'll quote an old HBO program to confirm my ideology."
Actually I think this case is very similar to Brown vs Board of Ed. It was generally thought then that maybe 4 of the Justices would overrule Plessy vs Ferguson. However, newly appointed Chief Justice Earl Warren convinced the rest that not only should it be overruled but it should be 9-0. The Constitutional basis was probably even weaker than this case. And the social and political consequences far greater than merely not allowing one citizen to be on the ballot.
Did the Hawaii supreme court engage in insurrection when they declared the 1st and 2nd amendments don't apply to their state?
Hmmm, interesting question. Maybe?
You expect nothing less and also expect to be disappointed. Does that word salad make you feel clever?
Yes. Clever I feel. Eat salad.
14/1 says Due Process must be followed.
14/5 says Congress can establish the Due Process.
14/x doesn't mention Colorado.
If insurrection charges are filed against Trump, and if he is convicted, he not only can but must be removed from every ballot. But even Biden's weaponIzed justice department has not for charges.
Scotus ruled that the Colfax Klansmen who murdered nearly 100 elected blacks in Louisiana were wrongly indicted. By freeing the perps it nullified 13A and relegalized vigilantes with guns hunting and killing nonwhites. The negotiated ruling balked all efforts to hang white supremacist night-riders wearing sockpuppet masks in other partly-reconstructed States even as northern voters eliminated Comstockists.
COMSTOCK! DRINK!
Did I miss that they did? Has Trump been found as an insurrectionist? When did the trial finish?
It's also a Federal office.
You would be ok, if say Texas ruled Biden to old to be on a ballot?
Quite the headline declaring trump an insurrectionist.
Yeah, they still say "insurrectionist" about the J6 revelers, but not about any leftists invading government buildings.
There is a difference between a peaceful protest, and an insurrection.
Just like there is a difference between a hall of justice and a courthouse.
And there is a significant difference between a riot and an insurrection. I don’t recall seeing the word riot anywhere in the 14th amendment.
If the Jan 6 idiots sincerely thought, no matter how wrongfully, that they were enforcing the proper counting of votes ("every vote counts") in keeping with how lawful elections are run, it's nonsensical to label them insurrections. In that case they would not be trying to "overthrow" the government or any thing similar - they would have been trying to preserve the lawful government. The intent to overthrow the government seems to be a necessary element of "insurrection".
The same thing would apply to Trump - even if his sincere belief that the vote counts were manipulated was delusional due to mental illness.
I would counter by saying if they want to preserve the lawful government shouldn't they proceed lawfully? Of course, "they", Trump & Co, did so and failed. Having failed lawfully are they entitled to proceed unlawfully? I think the entire point of a lawful government is that we follow the laws and if we don't like them we change them lawfully.
Protesting for election integrity is not a crime.
And how do you even trespass on public property?
Civil disobedience is an honored tradition in the USA. Maybe the riot got a bit too uncivil. Charge a few of the miscreants with assault and destruction of property then.
Don't forget declaring some geographical region an "autonomous zone," and having armed men keep out agents of the legal government in the region.
Integrity is the enemy of BOTH looter Kleptocracy factions. This is news to whom?
That's not how I'd read it. Or did the headline change?
Still says "as an insurrectionist." A predeclaration. If questioning it would be "if an insurrectionist."
OMG the headline used the "I" word!
You've been on quite the bender today.
That ethanol-based hand sanitizer isn't going to just drink itself.
SCOTUS Is Troubled by the Claim That States Can Disqualify Trump From the Election As an Insurrectionist
Victimizes Trump
SCOTUS Is Troubled by the Claim That States Can Disqualify Trump From the Election If an Insurrectionist
Victimizes the reader.
It’s the States that are calling Trump an insurrectionist, not SCOTUS or the author of this article.
Tell that to crybaby Jesse.
Tell me what sarc? States didn't write the headline.
The headline obviously refers to the states calling him an insurrectionist, and are not the headline writer calling him one.
This is your typical inferring something stupid and insisting the person said what you inferred, not what they said.
And as always I can’t tell if you’re mendacious, malicious, maladjusted, manipulative, malformed, malfeasant, or just plain stupid.
How is the reader victimized?
Just joking because it’s awkward grammatically
Big, if true.
You see, Jesse is here to enforce the correct groupthink. None may dare even consider that Trump *might* be an insurrectionist. That is wrongthink.
He’s not an insurrectionist. He’s a crybaby. So are his defenders
"Jesse is here to enforce the correct groupthink."
OH FUCKING WOW!!!
Hey everyone! Look at the accusation Jeff of all people had the guts to make.
You too, asshole. You're also here to enforce the orthodoxy lest one be called a Nazi.
But you are an actual NAZI in almost every sense, you fat authoritarian fuck.
I don't think that's a good reading of it. It's talking about what states are doing. States are the ones making the declaration that he's an insurrectionist, not the author of the headline.
Well, it is Sullum writing this...
Worst. Insurrection. Ever.
/Comic Book Guy
"meaning that "it'll come down to just a handful of states that are going to decide the presidential election," which is "a pretty daunting consequence.""
But muh popular vote!
The electoral college also also comes down to a handful of states.
All elections come down eventually to just a difference of one popular or electoral vote.
That's democracy's persuasive advantage over troops with guns. I doubt that the SCOTUS is ready to redefine federalism to achieve their preferred electoral outcome.
In the Bush and Gore fiasco didn't one vote on SCOTUS decide the election? Probably Thomas. Who voted for him?
Algore and his supporters - the original election deniers.
Justice Thomas, our finest SC jurist, was nominated by George HW Bush, and confirmed by the US Senate.
No, SCOTUS did not count a vote nor decide who won. SCOTUS decided that recounting until the county got the result the county politicians wanted had to stop at some point. Were they are recount 3, 4 or 5 at that point?
The whole point is that Trump did not respect the popular vote or EC vote.
Exactly. The Trump apologists tend to forget it was Trump trying to hijack an election. One person trying to cancel everyone else's vote.
It was payback for what was done to him.
No evidence that Trump doesn't respect an accurate vote.
Didn't Raffinsburger tell him a dozen times the count was accurate? And didn't Trump continue to insist he find him more votes??
So what?
There is nothing wrong with that.
Yes, there is. The President bullying a local elections official to fabricate votes is illegal. MAGAs hiss and fit about "voting fraud" all the time, but give Trump a pass when he actually tries to do massive voting fraud.
Yes, there is. The President bullying a local elections official to fabricate votes is illegal.
No, it is not. To petition government officials for the redress of grievances is protected by the First Amendment.
You're kidding right?
I am not kidding at all.
You’re not smart. Run along.
He is smarter than you are, clearly.
According to the Al Gore standard Trump should have gotten at LEAST 3 more recounts where various votes got found, reinterpreted, and rejected.
Considering how many votes they “found” after the fact, this isn’t the score you think it is.
Trump said just the other day that he won PA twice.
He also claimed he had won New Hampshire in the general election in 2016 and 2020. Didn't. He lies. A lot. Or he's senile like Biden.
Want to be informed?
Read this: https://heartland.org/who-really-won-the-2020-election/
Thanks for the link. I read it quickly but will study it again. I suspected there were lots of shenanigans but the time for this evidence was before Dec. 8th 2020.
This is not a very good article. Let’s take the results from the poll that they trumpet one by one.
21% of mail-in voters admitted that in 2020 they voted in a state where they are “no longer a permanent resident.”
What it doesn’t say is that they also voted in the the state that they are a permanent resident. Voting twice would be fraud. They should be voting in the state where they are resident, but what if they moved there recently and it was too late to register to vote? Are they not supposed to vote at all or can they vote absentee in their former state?
21% of mail-in voters admitted that they filled out a ballot for a friend or family member
There’s not enough detail here to know whether this is fraud or not. Some people can’t fill out a paper ballot on their own. Someone elderly or with Parkinson’s, for example. In this case, you can get someone to fill out your ballot for them.
17% of mail-in voters said they signed a ballot for a friend or family member “with or without his or her permission.”
If the question was “without his or her permission”, that would be fraud. But because it says “with or without his or her permission”, we can’t be sure it’s fraud. As I said above, someone might not be capable of signing their ballot.
19% of mail-in voters said that a friend or family member filled out their ballot, in part or in full, on their behalf.
Again, some people can’t fill out their ballot on their own. Someone filling it out for them, with their permission, isn’t necessarily fraud.
One interesting finding in the report:
Our analysis indicates that at the 28.2 percent fraud rate, after
adjusting for weights, Biden voters admitted to committing at least one form of fraud at a rate of 23.2 percent, and Trump voters self-admitted fraud rate was 35.7 percent.
However they still find even with this that discarding those mail in votes would have resulted in Biden: 260 Trump: 278 electoral vote due to Biden's higher mail in vote percentages.
...or win them.
The popular vote is irrelevant. Trump and his supporters were contending that the pending Electoral vote was wrong, and should be paused while the election could be audited. Somehow even raising the question is insurrection? What if a few states had cheated?
Look, the only time election results can be contested is when a Democrat appears to lose. That's how you know an election is fraudulent.
That's ridiculous. If that were true, it would mean the Dems claimed fraud for all of the 2016, 2004, and 2000 elections. Oh, wait...
WHO is gonna SPANK Trump?!?!
Melania won't do it, "Team R" won't do it, "Reason" commenters won't do it, Taylor Swift won't do it, Putin won't do it, Biden won't do it, Pepe the Racist Frog won't do it... WHO will, at long last, give Trump the SPANKING that He SOOO thoroughly deserves?!?!
(Yes, I know, Spermy Daniels will, butt she won't do it the RIGHT way!!! And her prices are sexploitative and even SEXORBITANT!!!)
And obliviously, the SCROTUS won't spank Trump, either!!!! WHY will the SCROTUS, in our hour of need, NOT spank Trump?!?! Inquiring minds want to KNOW, dammit!!!
A judicial spanking is in order. 9-0 affirming seems right.
Yes the corrupt Colorado Supreme court needs just such a spanking.
Affirming that they were TDS addled idiots, that is.
P.S. There was no insurrection.
I don’t see them as corrupt. There are many actions done by government that I don’t agree with but that doesn’t make them corrupt in my view. In their ruling they took great pains to justify there final ruling. And of course the dissenting opinions are there as well. And it was 5-4 ruling I believe so only some qualify for spanking.
They're not "troubled," they find it nonsense. There's a ton of reasons, but let me break down the logic for you.
According to Colorado, Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is self-executing, which means it takes place immediately when an insurrection takes place. At that moment, the President stops being the President, and we have to assume that Colorado's position is that a state can find that it happened without a criminal charge or conviction.
So if one single state decides that the President is no longer President, then what? Imagine some state like Alabama just decides to rule that Joe Biden has committed insurrection. There's no need for any legal determination, apparently, they can just declare it via their secretary of state or their legislature can come to a finding. Does Joe Biden then get removed from office for the other 49 states? Of course not. Does it mean that Kamala is instantly the President of Alabama? Again, that's nonsense.
So if a state doesn't have the power to come to an independent finding that removes the President from office, they can't independently come to a finding that he's ineligible to hold office. It needs some process to universally decide who is and who is not an insurrectionist. The means of defining that process is up to Congress, via the 5th Article of the 14th Amendment.
I made the point, in other posts, stating that the military could overthrow FJB as and aider and comforter of America's enemies, if this provision were self-executing.
These are the kinds of question the USSC was asking. If an insurrection takes place, what compels anyone in the military to follow any order? If it’s self executing, it happens instantly, which means every soldier in the entire military has the power to decide that the President is invalid and they don’t need to obey orders. Which means soldiers can just come to this finding at any time, for almost any reason. Which means the chain of command no longer exists.
It’s absolutely tortured, motivated logic.
Keep in mind that Pence jettisoned the chain of command on 1/6 because Trump refused to act as Commander in Chief.
Cite?
Here's one from Cato. There are some others out there.https://www.cato.org/commentary/mike-pence-could-have-should-have-invoked-25th-amendment-jan-6
That doesn't say Pence made that claim. It say's Liz Cheney did.
Is her claim incorrect?
Absolutely
Yes.
Of course. What has she claimed in the last five years that didn't turn out to be incorrect. She's been caught in some incredible lies, not least of which was helping to peddle the narrative from the Steele report.
Caught lying, moves the goalpost.
They always do, like MollyGodiva did above.
If Trump is guilty of an "insurrection", then at the very least charge him with the crime of insurrection.
The justices of the supreme court of colorado that ruled that trump was guilty of an "insurrection" even though he has never been charge let alone be convicted, have clearly failed the basics of due process.
There are numerous other problems with the colorado case, however this single notion should have been enough to toss out the case in the first place.
The due process issue was addressed in their ruling and by a strong dissenting opinion. The law being followed in Colorado was their Election Act. They followed it, not perfectly, but they did their best and Trump's legal team made no protests. The evidence from the trial convinced the Judge that Trump engaged in an insurrection. Done. CO Supreme Court agreed. Section 3 does not mention either charges or convictions. The historical record shows that was deliberate.
A pack of partisan enemies of the president, in an illegally formed congressional committee, decided that an insurrection took place, but didn't refer the president for charges associated with the event.
Then, an equally partisan state supreme court, accepted the conclusion, and felt it was empowered to skip over the whole silly charges, trial, and conviction thing, and treat someone, who never set foot on the Capitol grounds, as though they "engaged" in an insurrection - that never happened.
Anyone, who thinks this is the way our legal system should work is a TDS addled lefty shit.
The 1/6 Committee wasn't illegal although it was partisan. Did they have any authority to say anything about charges? The CO District Court heard a lot of evidence and Trump was welcome to testify. I thought it quite amazing that they found him disqualified until I read their rationale. Maybe you should read it.
Section 1 mentions due process. In fact it requires it.
Section 5 gives Congress the power to establish that process.
Congress was fine with States and the Union Army deciding on section 3 during reconstruction.
States can and did invalidate candidates -- in elections for positions within their state. Illinois could never disqualify someone from holding office in Ohio because Illinois lacks jurisdiction in Ohio. Likewise, states lack jurisdiction when it comes to declaring who can and cannot run for a federal elected position.
Does Colorado have a state law making treason a crime that doesn't require a grand jury indictment or trial or verdict?
Section 3, which was aimed at preventing former Confederates from returning to public office after the Civil War,
Nope, It was prompted by that but as the text makes clear through lack of specification, it was aimed at insurrectionists in general.
My view remains that: Trump was an insurrectionist (as IMO most of you also think, the difference being that you actually approve); a conviction is not necessary, and a hearing (as in Colorado) suffices to find that he was; that he is an officer of the US (and it's moronic to think otherwise given the text of the Constitution, where the presidency is commonly referred to as an office); he did swear an oath per the text; But I do not know whether S3 is self-executing - indeed, no-one does until SC decides one way or another; nor do I know whether states have the power to disqualify anyone under S3 - and again, no-one does until the SC decides.
But I do not think it wise to let states go ahead and DQ in practice. And I suspect that the SC will coat a pragmatic decision in a thin layer of jurisprudence to arrive there.
As a point of principle, if you defend the EC and the composition of the Senate on the grounds of states' rights, etc etc (we all know the arguments) you cannot complain when a state exercises the rights that you think they should - or do - have. After all, Colorado isn't requiring all other states to DQ him.
Shrike agrees with democrats. Noooo waaayyy.
Dear Democrat,
Trump never removed his opponent from a ballot. You guys did.
Trump never used the Government against his opponent. You guys did.
Trump never censored speech. You guys did.
Trump never stole an election. You guys did.
You guys are guilty of everything single fucking thing you've accused accused Trump of.
And you goosestepping shitheads still refuse to point out what Trump did that day that was even remotely insurrectiony.
You time to shine SRG2. What did Trump do that incited and insurrection or was intended to incite a resurrection.
SRG2's totally not incitement:
"there will be blood in the streets” - Loretta Lynch
“Who says protests have to be peaceful“ - Cuomo
“There needs to be unrest in the streets” - Ayanna Pressley
“Protesters should not give up” - Kamala Harris
“I just don’t know why they aren’t uprising all over this country“ - Nancy Pelosi
“You get out and create a crowd and you push back on them, tell them they are not welcome“ - Maxine Waters
“I want to tell you, Gorsuch, I want to tell you, Kavanaugh: You have released the whirlwind, and you will pay the price! You won’t know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions!” - Chuck Schumer
"(the Supreme Court is) Illegitimate! Illegitimate! Into the streets! Into the streets! - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
SRG's guide to deadly incitement:
“Go home with love and peace, remember this day forever“ - Donald J Trump
Now out with it. Tell us all what was Trump's insurrection.
Because Trump spearheaded a weeks long illegal effort to overturn the results of an election and install himself as an unelected president.
Do you mean he should be in insurrection jail with Al Gore and Stacey Abrams and Hillary Clinton? lol
Donald Trump legally contested election results in the courts using precedents previously established in the 1870s, 1960, and 2000 by Democrats in some cases.
Your narrative that it should be illegal to contest election results in courts and call for audits is so psychotic, fascist and deranged it borders on insurrection itself.
Fake electors, pressuring local officials to change the results, and pressuring Pence to throw out EC votes. His aids were also in contact with those who stormed the capital, which Trump knew about.
1. In two close presidential elections 60 years apart. Two states sending dueling slates of electors to Congress. In Hawaii the governor first certified Richard Nixon as the winner over John Kennedy by 141 votes. Both parties decided to send their own slate of electors to Congress instead. They did it openly.
2. In the past, Democrats have objected to Electoral College results on the flimsiest possible grounds. In 2001, 2005 and 2017, Democratic Representatives and, in 2005, Senators voted against accepting the Electoral College tally. Thus, every Republican president since George H. W. Bush has seen Democrats vote against accepting the legitimacy of his election.
3. What do you mean by "In contact" you dishonest shit? I know you're trying to infer that they were being given directives without actually coming out and saying it because you know it would be a lie. Fucking weasel.
It looks more, and more, like the ones "in contact with those who stormed the capital (Sp)" were the FIB, and other government agencies.
No anyone associated with Trump.
1. The Hawaii duel electors was done in open for valid reasons, and it was resolved before they were counted. No one tried to push the Nixon EC votes as real.
2. Some Ds have objected, but it never went anywhere because it was symbolic. The Rs objected with the real intention of discarding EC votes they did not like.
3. White House was in contact with members of far right groups that were part of the attack. Members of Trump' staff helped plan the attack on the capital.
I’ll let everyone else judge your cope for the first two. “Only symbolic when we do it”, lol.
As for your little bit of lying in #3, I’m going to ask for 1. a cite. 2. Which staff members? 3. Seeing as your narrative has been a crowd spontaneously being whipped up by Trump’s invective, and now you’re claiming that it was planned instead, what was the plan and what agency discovered it?
You’re just posting any old bullshit and hoping some idiot falls for it.
I’ll let everyone else judge your cope for the first two. “Only symbolic when we do it”, lol.
I have heard this argument before, with people defending Obama's vote against cloture regarding the nomination of Samuel Alito as "symbolic".
Leftist protestors set the city of DC on fire during Trump's inauguration. I've never heard them called insurrectionists. Same with people trying to break down the doors when Bret Kavanaugh was being sworn in to his SCOTUS position. Also, apparently, not insurrection.
Fist bump a cop inside the Capitol on 1/6? ERMAGERD InSuRrEcTiOn!!
Questioning a dubious election is now an insurrection? Democrats would never accept defeat of their candidate in an election with as many flaws as the 2020 farce. And it certain their protests would replicate the St. George of Floyd riots rather than the relatively minor kerfuffle of Jan. 6.
Trump went far beyond questioning a dubious election. Certainly by 12/8, 12/14, 12/21 the questioning should have been completely over. The "Stop the Steal" BS was over. He had now entered the insurrection mode. I truly believe that the moment Barr told him his fraud claims were BS Trump was in the insurrectionist mode. Calling supporters to DC for a rally was a direct attack on the election process. The attack on Congress delaying the certification was exactly what Trump hoped would happen and the fact that he did nothing to address the situation would convince most reasonable people that he was in full approval.
What you say is bullshit, starting with the claim that Trump "called his supporters to DC for a rally"
It was not organized by him, or his people.
He was one of the invited speakers, and the breach of the Capitol began before he had even finished talking, a mile, and a half from the building.
The evidence, the very plain evidence...."Big protest in D.C. on January 6th," he wrote, referring to the day Congress was set to formally certify Joe Biden's victory in the electoral college.
"Be there, will be wild!" He in this case is Trump. Just one example.
Wow, he called it a protest. Exactly what an insurrectionist would do.
These are clown arguments.
Members of Trump's staff were in contact with the far right groups that attacked the capital. The speech was insignificant.
lol, ok.
Like who, liar.
Who was "in contact"? Who did they contact?
First, these people claimed that the speech somehow caused people to riot.
And now they say it was insignificant.
Calling supporters to DC for a rally was a direct attack on the election process.
So you call organizing a protest an insurrection.
You people just hate dissent against you.
The rally was one piece in the puzzle.
One completely legal, Constitutionally protected activity.
Irrelevant. Even if you take the rally out, Trump still did an attempted coup.
How?
You've made shadowy allusions to "contacts" while refusing to say who was involved, what they said, and who they spoke to. And the rest of your allegations were completely legal things that the Democrats did all the time before 2020.
So how? Because right now it's looking like the only real coup plotters were the Trump/Russia manufacturers and the people who tried to impeach him for calling for an investigation into Biden's pay to play scam.
Oh, and also Pelosi for trying to organize a military coup. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/us/politics/trump-impeachment-pelosi.html
So you discuss the rally until you’re shown to be full of shit about the rally, then call it irrelevant and just move on to the next pile of bullshit.
Do you imagine your arguments are being taken seriously by anyone?
Of course protest is legal and I have participated in protest. But Trump calling people to DC to "Stop the Steal" was seen by the Court as part of an insurrection.
Well slick, unfortunately for you the same whiny Karens who have been shrieking about climate and covid apocalypse are shitting their pants about insurrection(!) What a coincidence!
You are the trans boy who cried wolf. We don’t believe you. Suck it, bitch.
Oh, and you’re gonna be really sad in November. Haha. Maybe you’ll “spearhead” an insurrection?
So now silence is not only violence, it's insurrection too?
Bill Barr told us Jeffery Epstein killed himself.
Lost the popular vote twice and the electoral once for a pisspoor batting average. So what--besides bullying girls and helping Republicans shoot potheads--made Lewserboy the Sultan of Smarm?
What is this popular vote you speak of, and how does it determine who is elected President?
Trump spearheaded a weekslong effort to investigate fraud and obvious irregularities in an election with unprecedented deviations from existing state voting laws in many cases without legislative authority. Unable to get those issues resolved based on their merits in the legal system he cooperated in a peaceful transfer of power. Those issues remain unresolved to this day.
Isn't it interesting that all of the responses given above ONLY mention his legal challenges in order to defend Trump. They do not mention the "Eastman memo" or Trump directing his VP to ignore the law and the Constitution or organizing the rally on Jan. 6 in the first place because he had continued with the 'stolen election' myth EVEN AFTER all of his legal challenges had been exhausted.
They can't. MAGAs need to have very selective memory or they might realize their master is a fraud.
Speak for yourself there, Democrat.
You're fading away into a grey box... I can't even see your name....
I think it is more than interesting. It's disgraceful, stupid and un-American.
Not a myth.
https://heartland.org/who-really-won-the-2020-election/
The poll that is referenced in that article does not show at all that Trump won. Also any "study" from a organization that rejects the notion of data driven analysis is quite suspect.
Who? Rasmussen?
They do not mention the “Eastman memo” or Trump directing his VP to ignore the law and the Constitution or organizing the rally on Jan. 6 in the first place because he had continued with the ‘stolen election’ myth EVEN AFTER all of his legal challenges had been exhausted.
Because none of the above were wrong.
Because none of the above were criminal or insurrection. But hey, you’ve got some friends now who agree that free speech (even if completely wrongheaded or misinformation) is a threat to democracy as long as it’s the Orange one doing it.
Hopefully that won’t come back to bite any future (L) candidate on the ass when they too argue against the appearance of absolute shenanigans after the democrats successfully get them removed from ballots.
Lying Jeffy doesn’t really care what might happen to future L candidates. He cares about Democrats wielding power.
"or organizing the rally on Jan. 6 in the first place because he had continued with the ‘stolen election’ myth EVEN AFTER all of his legal challenges had been exhausted."
Shall we talk about the Obama rally when Trump was confirmed, or would you like to talk about the Democrats stolen election riots at the Capitol and around the country on Trump's inauguration day? The government buildings lit on fire, police cars destroyed, officers injured?
Police injured, more than 200 arrested at Trump inauguration protests in DC
That's (D)ifferent though, right?
So organizing a rally is now insurrection?
There was nothing insurrection about the effort.
I'm not a Democrat. Find someone who is and address your questions to them.
Whatever you say gov’na shrike.
SRG2. I only disagree about allowing States to disqualify. This process has been going on for months. Several States have said Trump is qualified or that their State laws don't allow them to make that decision. I say the SCOTUS should allow the process to continue. Affirm the Colorado ruling. If the GOP doesn't like how it all adds up then they can find a better candidate, a non-insurrectionist, as their candidate.
And GOP states can disqualify Biden and anyone else the Democrats push. For whatever reasons they choose. Running for elected office as a Democrat could be classed as a form of insurrection.
The Comstock law banned birth control info in the mails AND anything disloyal, with years on a chaingang thrown in for good measure.
COMSTOCK! DRINK!
But Thomas was unsatisfied with that explanation. Since “there were a plethora of Confederates still around” in the 1870s, he said, there should “at least be a few examples of national candidates being disqualified if your reading is correct.”
What a moron. The 14th Amendment was ratified in July 1868. The Amnesty Act – specifically passed to provide Sec3 amnesty to all Confederates – passed in May 1872. All states had critters in Congress by early 1871. So the only window was Grant’s 1st term.
That said – I’m glad he said ‘national candidates’. That implies that state office would be self-executing and I have no prob at all with Congress being the branch that determines national disability.
A few justices also wondered whether the president qualifies as “an officer of the United States” within the meaning of Section 3
JFC these people have no sense of real history. President was NOT an elected-by-default position. SC had NEVER had a popular vote for Prez before the 14thA. The big purpose of Sec3 was to take that insurrection disability power out of the hands of Prez and put it into CONGRESS. It was not about the states except for their readmission to Congress. The discussion about Sec3 was very specifically a power play aimed at reducing the power of Prez – spec Johnson – to stuff govt with insurrectionists. In a very real sense to make Jan 6 a real power day - for Congress to APPOINT and APPROVE the electoral college selection of Prez. Not simply to count votes. See below.
If the concern is that “insurrectionists should not be able to hold federal office,” Kavanaugh told Murray, “there is a tool to ensure that that does not happen—namely, federal prosecution of insurrectionists.
Again with the stupid. No this is not about the SC or the judiciary you stupid fuck. If the President can pardon – which was explicitly one of Congress’ main reasons for making Sec3 part of the Constitution not merely legislation – then that means the Prez can also bypass federal prosecution. And the obvious, oft-stated fear of Congress was that Johnson re-became a Dem once Lincoln was assassinated. The two had been elected on a National Union ticket – not D or R. The D’s were positioning themselves for the 1866 and 1868 elections as restoring all the partisanship and strife that had resulted in the Civil War. And Johnson was pardoning many thousands of Confederates even in 1865 before those states sent people back to Congress.
And no one is even mentioning that this was a PRIMARY ‘election’ not a real election at all. Hopefully they mention that in their opinion – that their opinion is about some hypothetical general election question. Because if they are as stuck on stupid as some of these questions, which evince zero understanding of the Reconstruction Era, then conflating primaries with general elections is forcing PARTIES into the Constitution.
Oh - and the 14th Amendment was finally ratified a couple weeks after the failed impeachment of Johnson. You can't separate the two as part of the power play here. There was no Veep during Johnsons term. So if he had been impeached/convicted, then Benjamin Wade - a Radical Republican Senator (Prez ex tempore of Senate) would have become Prez. And there are a FEW Senators who voted against Johnson's impeachment specifically because they hated Wade. The conviction failed by one vote.
Go home with love and in peace. Remember this day forever! == insurrection apparently
I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!
Insurrection! Straight to jail.
Do you even dig whistle, bro?
Yes we know.
As we have all been told multiple times, we are to ignore Trump's 'mean tweets' and focus only on policy.
But now, we are also told multiple times, we are to ignore Trump's terrible actions and focus only on his positive words.
So, put the two together: ignore everything bad about Trump, only focus on the good!
Sounds too insurrection-y to me. We better have the FBI visit you.
It is amusing how much you are willing to treat him as anything other than a normal human being, let alone a weasel politician. Trump is the only person that I have seen you all give a nearly infinite benefit of the doubt. I'm willing to bet you offer Trump more leniency and grace than you would offer your own family members.
Perfect. Trump truly is a sick f##k and doesn't deserve his army of apologists and buttkissers.
So, you're an unbiased commenter, I see.
Many on this site don't support Trump, but see that this is an assault on democracy, to deny his supporters the chance to have him on ballots.
I am biased against criminals of all types. I am biased for the rule of law. I am biased towards using our democratic process to change unjust law. I don't see much love for democracy on here or even for individual rights. I see excuse making and BS.
You should schedule time with both an optometrist and a mental health professional.
maybe he can stand in front of the supreme court and threaten that they will "reap the whirlwind". That might be pretty insurrection-y and we could get him on that.
The whole quote in all its glory:
“I want to tell you, Gorsuch, I want to tell you, Kavanaugh: You have released the whirlwind, and you will pay the price! You won’t know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions!” - Chuck Schumer
Did he incite an insurrection? That’s the question at hand. Given that context, his request that people go peacefully is extremely relevant since his words are cited as the incitement.
Jeffy was hoping to redirect from the first part "we are to ignore Trump’s terrible actions" with the last part about words, because he didn't want us asking what exactly "Trump’s terrible actions" were.
He's a top tier weasel but his sophistry is a little too obvious.
Yes we know. One positive statement totally negates all of the negative actions that he undertook.
It's more than reasonable that he wanted people to protest and make their voices heard. He treated it like a campaign stump, and he also used those exacts words-protest, make your voices heard. The other stuff you can cite, his exhortations to "Fight like hell," is obviously political speech. It's also too damned vague, it doesn't target anything or anyone specific in its exhortation.
You can't point to him ever saying "We need to storm the Capitol. We need to get in there and prevent them voting. We need to shut down the government." That much is required, and it still might NOT meet the Brandenburg standard, depending on the imminence, especially if he negated it by saying, "Let's now go and be peaceful."
I'm sorry that you don't like his speech. I'm sorry that you think Trump supporters don't have agency and are mind controlled by Dear Leader, or whatever. But your subjective feelings aren't relevant, we require some measure of objective criteria to look to in order to assess intent.
Yes we know. He has to use the exact insurrection-y words, uttered verbatim, before anyone may consider him to be perhaps guilty of insurrection.
You know, with most people, even if they don’t state out loud exactly what their true intentions are, we observers can usually make an educated assessment based on the totality of words and deeds. (Consider the whole concept of ‘revealed preference’.) And with politicians in general, we tend to take a critical look of whether their stated intentions align with their true intentions. But only with Trump, do so many of you throw all of that skepticism aside and treat him as if he were the most innocent of creatures ever to walk the face of the earth who is only to be judged guilty of anything if God Himself declares it so. It is astounding to watch.
THERE WAS NO INSURRECTION!
He may have been the only one, but Ray Epps was caught on camera calling for an attack on the Capitol even while everyone around him called him a 'Fed' and told him to fuck off.
According to Jeff and the J6 committee however, he was an innocent maligned.
His speech had zero connection with violence.
we observers can usually make an educated assessment based on the totality of words and deeds.
Your educated guess about what someone meant is not sufficient to establish a crime. I'd have major issues with that standard even if we were using against the most vile people in society, from Charles Manson to Nicholas Cruz.
Principles are important.
Essentially, all of the arguments that Trump incited tHe Insurrection®™ boil down to this.
Trump promoted Badthink®™, and because some people rioted on the basis of Badthink®™, that was an insurrection and Trump incited it.
Some may argue this applies to Patrice Cullors, Nikole Hannah-Jones, Charles M. Blow, and many others. After all, they chanted, “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot”. They claimed that the police habitually hunt down and gun down unarmed Black men. They claimed the criminal justice system is systemically racist. And some people rioted on this basis.
It would apply if this principle was enforced in an even-handed manner. But the same side that says that Trump was promoting Badthink®™ also believe that Cullors, Jones, and Blow were promoting Goodthink®™, and those who rioted based on this Goodthink®™ were not engaging in Insurrection®™, but fighting White Supremacy®™
*"You know, with most people, even if they don’t state out loud exactly what their true intentions are, we observers can usually make an educated assessment based on the totality of words and deeds. (Consider the whole concept of ‘revealed preference’.)"
And, yet, any time someone does that with you, Chemjeff, or Sarc, you complain that we're misrepresenting you.
"peacefully and patriotically" was the phrase he used.
Can an insurrection be patriotic?
You keep that his negative actions caused an insurrection.
You have yet to establish causality.
He can’t even bring himself to say which actions, how’s he going to prove causality?
Trump’s terrible actions
Name one other than the bump-stock ban.
no no J6 actions only here.
Ketchup on well-done steaks I think.
That's about all Jeff has since his peeing hookers narrative exploded.
He's a New Yorker. They all murder their food with over cooking and over application of sauces.
Let's start with instructing his VP to ignore the law and the Constitution.
Golly, what did he say, Jeffy? Do you have a quote to share?
Ignore the law? The law gives the VP the authority to certify the Electoral vote. If he's just supposed to rubber stamp it, the Clerk of Congress could certify it.
And then we can continue with him pushing a 'stolen election' myth EVEN AFTER all of his legal challenges had been exhausted.
https://heartland.org/who-really-won-the-2020-election/
https://mtracey.medium.com/the-most-predictable-election-fraud-backlash-ever-4187ba31d430
Of course what happened subsequently was that even years after Trump had safely taken power, the corporate media’s top luminaries continuously used the phrase “hacked the election” to describe the purported actions of Russia on behalf of Trump in 2016. Supermajorities of Democratic voters came to believe not just that Russia “interfered” in the election, but directly installed Trump into power by tampering with voting machines. Now, though, journalists who fostered these blinkered beliefs will feign incredulity that their conduct could have contributed to widespread “doubt” as to the “legitimacy” of that election. And they’ll be aghast at any suggestion that this was inevitably going to generate yet another crazed anti-legitimization initiative in 2020.
The Mises Caucasion says Trump was forking a hooker when his wife was pregnant. Does that count?
No comstock?
Count as what? Girl bullying?
list the terrible actions right now or stfu.
He may or may not have been peed on by Ukrainian hookers.
we should all be so lucky but this is limited to J6
1. He directed his VP to ignore the law and the Constitution.
2. He used a fake national emergency to justify spending military money on border wall construction.
Rebuttal:
1) He didn't direct him, he believed it was the lawful power of the VP to do this, as a power recognized in the Constitution. And it's not clearly against the law because it's an unsettled legal question. You don't like it, and neither do I-it would have been insane for Pence to do that-but that doesn't mean he didn't technically have the power. The President has the power to bomb Canada on a whim but he shouldn't do that either.
2) I mean, come the fuck on. Fake national emergency? Every President since at least Bush 41 has declared a National Emergency on questionable grounds to redirect funding for some policy objective. Might as well impeach Biden today for that shit. It would be nice if we could pass a restriction on the President's emergency powers since Congress is supposed to hold the power of the purse, but it's not a fucking insurrection.
1) He didn’t direct him, he believed it was the lawful power of the VP to do this, as a power recognized in the Constitution. And it’s not clearly against the law because it’s an unsettled legal question.
It's not unsettled. It's really damn obvious. The VP cannot single-handedly override the results of an election and it is insane to even contemplate the possibility. Even Eastman himself said that if Pence had done what Trump wanted, it would be instantly appealed to SCOTUS where he would lose 9-0. They all knew what they were doing was wrong but they did it anyway.
And you asked what terrible things that he did. This is one of them, even if we disagree on whether or not it was technically illegal. It was STILL TERRIBLE even as you admit below:
You don’t like it, and neither do I-it would have been insane for Pence to do that-but that doesn’t mean he didn’t technically have the power.
Oh, also:
The President has the power to bomb Canada on a whim but he shouldn’t do that either.
no he doesn't. The War Powers Resolution doesn't even say that.
2) I mean, come the fuck on. Fake national emergency? Every President since at least Bush 41 has declared a National Emergency on questionable grounds to redirect funding for some policy objective.
and it is all terrible. You asked what terrible actions he took. This is one of them, even if he is not the only one who has done it.
no he doesn’t. The War Powers Resolution doesn’t even say that.
I agree that the War Powers Resolution disagrees. Obama's actions in bombing Libya prove that the War Powers Resolution is fairly toothless. Same thing with the US involvement in Syria, in Yemen in 2018, or Kosovo in 1998. All it takes is a declaration of a national emergency about a perceived attack on the United States or NATO and the President has 60 days authorization.
Imagine if Congress took primary responsibility for war powers, though. What a crazy world that would be. They just prefer to surrender all of that to the executive branch these days-it means they don't have to be responsible for any big decisions.
Even Eastman himself said that if Pence had done what Trump wanted, it would be instantly appealed to SCOTUS where he would lose 9-0. They all knew what they were doing was wrong but they did it anyway.
Eastman conceded that he'd probably lose in the Supreme Court on the issue. A few things about this.
1) Him saying it doesn't even mean he meant it. He was saying it to what was effectively an opposing counsel, so he might have tried conceding to see if he could convince his opponent to concede a different point. We can't mind-read based solely on a conversation when he's trying to convince someone to do something.
2) It's not necessarily true. We've never had a case questioning the VP's role in reading the electoral counts. Now that the law has changed, we essentially never will. Congress seemingly felt there was enough vagueness there for misinterpretation, which prompted the change.
3) Even if it's true, advancing a longshot legal theory is not a crime. There's a case involving that multiple murderer from the University of Idaho, in which the defense pursued a long-shot motion, claiming that Reasonable Doubt is the required standard for a Grand Jury indictment. It was a ridiculous longshot as Probable Cause is the standard under what has been settled law for over 2 decades, but they're still advancing it under a unique theory of the constitution of Idaho with citations going back to the Magna Carta. Them pushing this ridiculous, longshot legal theory is not malpractice or sanctionable activity. Trying a legal procedure that is likely to fail is not the same thing as doing something illegal. EVEN IF YOU REALLY THINK IT'S WRONG.
1) Him saying it doesn’t even mean he meant it.
Ohhhhhh! So we are NOT going to take a person's word at face value anymore?
So when Trump said "go home and be peaceful" or whatever, can we now be skeptical of those words too? That he didn't really mean it? Or are we still going to believe every literal word of Trump's is true (as long as it reflects positively on him)?
Maybe, MAYBE, Trump wanted the protest to get out of hand, but he is smart enough never to say so explicitly using the exact insurrection-y words that you demand? That he said "go home and be peaceful" not because he really meant it (we are allowed to question his word now, right?) but for the sake of plausible deniability and because at that point all of his advisors were begging him to say ANYTHING to the mob to try to get them to stop?
It’s not necessarily true. We’ve never had a case questioning the VP’s role in reading the electoral counts.
We've also never had a case questioning whether a monkey can run for president. Do you want to know why? That's because it's fucking obvious that a monkey cannot run for president, not because it is an "unsettled question". Same deal here.
3) Even if it’s true, advancing a longshot legal theory is not a crime.
I didn't say it was. But you are shifting the goalposts from "Trump did something terrible" to "Trump did something illegal". Whether or not it is illegal what Trump did, it was a fucking terrible thing to do. He should have conceded gracefully after he lost his last court case. He should never have pushed the 'stolen election' fantasy for so long. He should never have told Pence to violate the Constitution and he should never have organized that rally on Jan. 6 to pressure Pence, and Congress, with mob violence. Even if all of those things are legal, they were all FUCKING TERRIBLE THINGS TO DO. But he did them because Trump is a horrible human being who does terrible things.
Maybe, MAYBE, Trump wanted the protest to get out of hand, but he is smart enough never to say so explicitly using the exact insurrection-y words that you demand.
I’m sorry, you don’t get to make assumption. That’s a fucking guess. It’s not the only reasonable assumption. You’re using the absolute worst-faith view, assuming it’s true, and then concluding that Trump incited something based on the mere possibility of being able to interpret something differently.
I then pointed out that Eastman’s words also have other possible interpretations. There’s absolutely no incongruity in me saying that you can’t jump to a conclusion based on vague language in one instance and then me saying the exact same thing in another instance.
This is one of the weakest ever attempts at a “gotcha” I have ever seen, and considering the general discourse on Trump, this is saying a LOT. You can do better.
I’m sorry, you don’t get to make assumption.
But you do, about Eastman?
And I'm sorry, but we make assumptions about politicians every fucking day around here. So yes I do get to make assumptions.
It’s not the only reasonable assumption.
You're right, but it is **A** reasonable assumption.
You’re using the absolute worst-faith view,
Oh, what I have said is not the **worst** faith view. Believe me.
assuming it’s true,
Actually, if you read my words very carefully, I never said that I thought that Trump actually did incite an insurrection.
and then concluding that Trump incited something based on the mere possibility of being able to interpret something differently.
IS THAT SO? Oh, well dearie me! Once you stop perpetually giving Trump the benefit of the doubt EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME, then maybe it is possible that **A** reasonable view flows from a belief that Trump has bad motives from time to time? You know, bad motives like EVERY POLITICIAN AND HUMAN BEING EVER sometimes has?
Trump is not God. Trump is not the Pope. Trump is a human being who is also a politician and a demagogue, and like all human beings and politicians and demagogues, they sometimes have bad motives and do bad things for bad reasons.
Once you stop putting Trump on a pedestal and assuming that he can never do wrong, suddenly, the people who are saying that Trump is a bad person actually start to make sense. Imagine that!
But you do, about Eastman?
Literally NO! Are you being dim? I'm saying that there's a reasonable interpretation and therefore we can't draw a conclusion based solely on the fact that he said this thing.
IS THAT SO? Oh, well dearie me! Once you stop perpetually giving Trump the benefit of the doubt EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME,
Because I'm talking about insurrection as a matter of law and fact, you disingenuous hack. Do you know how the law works? We absolutely give people accused of crimes the benefit of the doubt.
If we were just having a discussion about whether we agree with what Trump did in the days and weeks ahead of Jan. 6, I would say I think he was wrong in tactical ways. But people are trying to punish him for those actions and that is wrong because I don't think he violated any laws in doing so. Plenty of people DID violate laws on Jan. 6.
If your whole point is that you don't like Trump, you can stop. I get it. If you want to argue about whether he should suffer legal consequences for his involvement with the riot, then try to avoid this motte-and-bailey shit of "Well it's just my opinion, I'm allowed to dislike it" nonsense.
No no, Jeff gets to make all the assumptions he wants because he’s the king of the libertarians.
Also, STOP with the damned strawmen. Do you think I think Trump is a god? Do you think I believe Trump is perfect? Is that a position that is remotely similar to anything I've ever said?
I'm seriously trying to be good faith here and yet you keep acting like you're an online debate bro, with all the tactics. You try to come up with "Gotcha" moments as if those are winning arguments, you try to assign me the position of believe Trump is capable of no wrong, as if that's even close to my position. I have established a principled position and I'm applying my principles to arrive at an outcome. But you're railing against something else, some other dastardly man made out of straw who keeps showing up to threaten democracy, or whatever.
"Literally NO! Are you being dim?"
He's being disingenuous. Along with deliberate misinterpretation of his interlocutors arguments, it's one of Jeff's specialties.
Haha, this is why it’s pointless to try to have an honest discussion with Lying Jeffy.
He’s very dishonest.
Perfect. Unfortunately you are dealing with saps who live to make excuses for Trump.
The VP is given the power to certify the Electoral vote. That implies that he's also given the power to NOT certify the Electoral vote, if he thinks there is significant doubt about its accuracy or legality. He's the second ranking member of the government, not an elections clerk.
Everything Is So Terrible And Unfair, Jeff.
""2. He used a fake national emergency to justify spending military money on border wall construction.""
What fake national emergency was that?
This one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergency_Concerning_the_Southern_Border_of_the_United_States
The one he foresaw, if no wall was built, and a criminal like Bai-dung would become president?
That emergency?
“Using executive power in legally dubious ways is totally okay if my team does it” -- retiredfire
That's not what he said, Lying Jeffy.
Whenever Lying Jeffy uses “team” or “tribe” it’s projection.
"2. He used a fake national emergency to justify spending military money on border wall construction."
Are you high? No seriously, is that why you're not paying attention to what's been happening at the border for decades?
And even if you think immigration is a "national emergency", he used executive action of a dubious nature to justify evading the clear will of Congress. Note that he pulled this stunt just one day after Congress refused to fund his border wall.
Congress has repeatedly vote in favor of a wall.
All he did was find a way to use funds, available at his discretion, to follow through on that.
With the communist-controlled House, launching impeachments, at the drop of a hat, wouldn't you think they would have done another phony one for that, if it was illegal?
"Sure, I bitched every day when Obama used his pen and a phone, but when my guy does it, then it's totally fine" -- retiredfire
Again, that’s not what he said, Lying Jeffy.
You really seem to believe we can't read the other persons post, so you can write whatever you want. Don't you?
When it comes to Trump there is no good.
Oh there is some good. For instance I have no doubt that Trump genuinely loves his country.
But FFS the people around here virtually elevate him to sainthood with the amount of benefit of the doubt that he gets.
I totally doubt Trump loves the USA. He loves himself. He loves anyone that sends him money. That might be the entire list.
Oh I absolutely think that Trump loves himself WAY more than Trump loves the country. But he does love the country.
I see no evidence of it. If he truly loved his country he wouldn't run for office again.
Orangemanbad.
laughing at the obviously ludicrous "insurrection" claim == "elevate to sainthood". apparently
No, it is that time and time again, you and your team continue to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I still don't understand how so many of you can, with a straight face, say "yeah, Trump lies and says a lot of bluster", and then soon afterwards, start defending some terrible Trump thing by referencing something he said.
"Oh sure, Trump lies a lot. But he's not an insurrectionist. Look, he told people to go home peacefully! That proves it! But yeah, he does lie a lot."
>>“Oh sure, Trump lies a lot. But he’s not an insurrectionist. Look, he told people to go home peacefully! That proves it! But yeah, he does lie a lot.”
does. not. make. him. an. insurrectionist. why are you still at this?
He couldn't have engaged in an insurrection, because
THERE WAS NO INSURRECTION.
The majority of people polled say it was a protest that got out of hand, as did every one in the "Summer of Love" in 2020.
"Public opinion polls determine whether a person has committed a crime or not" --retiredfire
So attacking DHS agents guarding the Mark O. Hatfield Courthouse in Portland was insurrection?
As did the FBI as well.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/51440/fbi-confirms-there-was-no-insurrection-on-jan-6/
https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/examining-the-january-6-attack-on-the-us-capitol-wray-061521
Trump calling the Georgia SoS to hunt for votes is far more problematic than Trump asking his supporters to protest peacefully and patriotically at the Capitol.
But that could be deemed election interference, not insurrection. Removing a candidate from the ballot without due process could also be deemed election interference, and more clearly is.
Those old-timey conservatives believed in states rights.
Tel us again about "Lawn Jockeys" in the supreme court and congress.
I don’t know if any conservative has ever said that each individual state has the power toe disqualify the President.
They do have the power to punisbh those who post dark web links to kiddie porn.
Thomas Jefferson did, with the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions. But he was a Democrat.
Most dems wanted Wallace if they couldn't get the Hero of Chappaquiddick. Those same States now worship orange hitlerism.
I'm no Trump fan, but keeping him off the ballot is insane. I get it, IF he was convicted of insurrection. This should be 9-0. Look, I think both parties can do much better. But then, a hobo off the street would be better than the two front runners. The Democrats have gone full authoritarian in the attempt to keep Trump down. They worry because they are concerned that the voters will vote for Trump and rather than developing a good moderate option, they want to cheat.
they already cheated in 2020
I think 9-0 affirming makes more sense. There is nothing confusing about section 3. Colorado Supreme Court got it right. If SCOTUS overrules they show us once again what weak saps they are. Affirming it is a win/win. They support the rule of law and they get rid of Trump who is a PITA.
So the Supremes need to get rid of Trump? How about they get rid of Biden and declare Bidenomics unconstitutional? And my neighbor has a dog that barks all night. Can they get rid of him too? Win/win.
How about not deflecting to Biden. Let's deal with one dumbass at a time.
OK, then we should deal with you first, dumbass.
You've tried and failed.
How? If you weren't lying you were evading.
You have to know that, if Trump is taken off the CO ballot, that Bai-dung will be, in some other state, and a whole cascade of candidates, who are not of the party, of the officials making the move, will be taken from their ballots, too.
This is so obviously partisan, it needs to be rejected, out of hand.
what color is your hope chest?
I have a variety of hope chests. There's the Ron Paul Revolution chest that is steel gray. The Johnson/Weld chest that is cannabis green. Then there's the Libertarian Party will become a major political party chest. It's actually invisible. My Trump will be disqualified via section 3 chest is TBD.
Yet you support the party the furthest from libertarian principles.
That's (D)ifferent. When they say fascist things they don't mean it. The opposite of Trump who is all dogwhistles or something.
Not gonna lie, this got me to laugh, even if i disagree with all of your other posts.
>>I have a variety of hope chests.
I love this entire reply very funny.
There was no insurrection.
Nothing Trump did caused the riot.
Stare Decisis is Latin for Stays Bought. Long Dong, KKKavanaugh, Palito, Gorbasuch and Mutterkreus Mom are Christian National Socialism's revenge for cowardice and dereliction from denazification efforts. Already the AfD is exporting its girl-bullying planks to the Alabama Anschluss wing of the formerly libertarian party. Death camps for latinos, hippies and blacks over twigs and seeds will restore Austrian Economics and politics to their former Lutheran glory.
for me it is simple...... has he been convicted of insurrection? no. he has not even been charged with that. (and while i think some charges he faces are legit.... it is fair to say they have not been leaving out any that can be imagined with even the most strained logic.)
the only thing possibly more ludicrous than keeping him off the ballot for a crime he isn't even charged with is those who think it should be impossible to charge him with any crimes at all.
Has Robert Dear been convicted of cop-killing and shooting women at a ladies' clinic? Hell NO! Robert the Baby Saver is sane compared to Donnie, and lucid compared to Turd Sandwich. Repuglicans could do worse than to nominate Bobby Dearest, personal friend of God and Jesus!
Careful Foo_dd, that kinda talk puts you dangerously close to getting lumped in with us “Trump Cultist”.*
*Most of us aren’t actually cultist but our resident individualist will lump us all together anyways.
As I said above, when Lying Jeffy says everyone is in a “tribe” or on a “team”, he’s projecting his collectivist outlook on everyone else.
The question of Trump's eligibility for President might be a valid SOCTUS question, and it seems they will rule that he is. The question of who gets to be listed on the Colorado ballot would be question of the Colorado constitution and their SC.
But they would have to do it under Colorado law, Not a novel reading of a federal constitutional amendment.
Why? The Republican Party is a private entity and should be allowed to put anyone they want on the primary ballot. The amendment also says you can't hold office not you can't run for and win the election for the office.
As a private entity WTF do they have the State of Colorado holding primary elections for them? And paying for them?!? Oh. right. If CO is going to pay for them then I suppose they get to make the rules. Agree?
They shouldn’t…
They declared their intention to switch to a caucus if Trump was not on the ballot. But I agree that taxpayers should not be paying for party primaries.
It's because this goes far beyond primaries. People are talking about the primary because it occurs sooner than the general and that's what has created the urgency of answering this question. But Colorado cannot declare Trump ineligible to hold office due to being an insurrectionist, and then go "Just Kidding, he's totally eligible!" for the general election. The underlying claim that he's an insurrectionist and ineligible to hold office doesn't change.
Simply challenging Colorado's ability to set rules for primary ballots doesn't deal with the greater issue that Colorado could just remove the Republican nominee from the general ballot. There's reason to regard these elections differently as the same reasoning for removal would continue to apply in November.
Only the Presidential Electors can be banned under the 14th Amendment in the general election. No presidential candidate is actually on the general election ballot. The Electors themselves would have had to have been found guilty of insurrection, not the candidate.
They’re not going to rule on the insurrection question because they’re not retrying the facts of the case. They’re just going to rule on whether Colorado had the authority to come to this decisions. It’s a question of law and not a question of fact.
So you'd accept Texas and a dozen red/purple states removing Biden for his aiding America's enemies through his corrupt business dealings and failure to enforce the law? Or are you too stupid to understand just what you'd be unleashing?
you should be too if you'd like anyone on this planet to respect your work.
This is an insane argument. Colorado is not trying to decide the issue for the whole country. All cases start at state courts or federal district court and aside form nationwide injunctions, it is never said that a lower court is deciding the issue for the whole country. CO never said that their holding was valid outside of CO The case was merely a means to get the issue to SCOTUS. They would be doing a massive disservice if they kicked the can and fail to decide the case on the merits. This issue needs to be resolved now.
"Let's make it seem like this is a legal question. The idiots will lap it up and cover for us"
Yeah, I'm not a fan of Pinochet, but I'm beginning to see the widespread corrosion of good faith, public trust, and the social contract such that if someone asks for food out of hand they're as likely to bite you whether you give it to them or not... or follow you around waiting for an opportunity to bite you... or whip up a mob to bite you... or deny biology and basic science dating back thousands of years to bite you. Pretty much, they don't care about themselves or others or general social welfare, they only care about biting people.
It all gets a lot easier if the right people from the Colorado Supreme Court case disappear from the face of the Earth and SCOTUS rules "It's a moot point and let's all agree to never make it not moot again."
Hidden within all then irrelevant BS is the only determinative issue. The case is not ripe. The amendment say can "HOLD" office and is silent about running for office.
The case will not be ripe until Trump wins the election and wants to hold the office. Then, there is no role for any court as the 14th Amendment gives sole discretion to Congress to allow Trump to serve by a 2/3 vote of each house.
The entire "hold" office idea is silly. The question in Colorado is whether or not an unqualified candidate, meaning qualified to hold office, can be listed on the ballot of a Colorado election. Following your logic anyone can be on the ballot even if unqualified to hold office. Colorado Supreme Court anticipated your logic and dismissed it as nonsense. They said the same for the "Office/Officer" argument.
The problem is that nobody has determined that Trump is disqualified, other than Colorado (and Maine). If some state tried to rule that Biden was unqualified because he’s not a resident of the United States, or that he wasn’t 35 years old, that would be struck down since Biden clearly meets those objective criteria.
Without an objective disqualifying criterion, they can’t conclude that he’s disqualified.
Several States have said Trump is qualified and just two have said he isn't. Why is that a problem? Colorado did use objective criteria and followed their Election Act to make the decision. My States SoS said he did not have the authority, per our State Constitution, to disqualify anyone using section 3.
Funny how voter disenfranchisement is always a major issue for people on the left, except when states want to prevent Republicans from voting for Trump. Then, all of a sudden, states have the absolute power to CI trial elections, apparently up and including that Republicans aren’t allowed to receive votes.
Because to the leadership, it is about raw power.
Trump is George Wallace 2.0. With Orange Hitler and the Austrian Anschluss Mises Caucasians draining off girl-bullying bigot votes, Joe "The Mummy" Biden might actually win and hand us a woman president.
Lol, take your meds, Hank.
He’s Orangeman, and Orangeman BAD. Duh
If Trump had been charged and convicted of insurrection, then that would at lest be an objective criterion, no matter how one felt about the trial. Putting in a subjective criteria without due process and not seeing that is going to have terrible ramifications long after Trump is gone is madness.
There ya go! If women voters let a quarter of sitting Republicans survive, they'll almost deserve to be enslaved as breeder chattel conscripts in Teedy's war on race suicide.
Um, the issue is the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, might be happy. Torquemada Repuglicans are just another iteration of The Holy Inquisition and Germany's Christian National Socialism. Successive mutations adopt protective coloration to blend in as a Fifth Column and mine rich lodes of credulous suckers. But Faith, not reason is the driver, and hatred, not happiness is their evident standard of value.
I guess, under Colorado law, sending mean tweets is an insurrection.
Wasn't Colorado where Christian National Socialist Trumpanzee Robert Dear attacked a women's clinic with military weapons, killed a cop and more and was, like Trump, not held responsible for his acts? Suddenly, women are learning unequal yet apposite reprisal force--at the polls and in christianofascisti dens of violent coercion. Texas declared open season on fugitive slave women, right? Nearby Haiti is the one place slaves took down their oppressors and made it stick. Texas could be the second such place.
“Trump, despite facing numerous criminal charges, was never charged with insurrection under 18 USC 2383”
This is persuasive to me—it seems that he should have to have been actually convicted of insurrection to be disqualified thereby.
However, it also seems to me that states have a right to govern their own elections, even if they do so in a way that I find nonsensical.
But I’m with Kagan that it just seems wrong that any one state can essentially decide who gets to be president.
I know which outcome I prefer in this particular case, but I’m not sure that I like the implications of either possible ruling TBH.
If Colorado is only asking about their own State why does it apply to other States? It doesn't have to. Why is New Hampshire, for example, where the SoS said he didn't have the authority to disqualify anyone any different than Colorado? Nobody has taken him to Court saying he was wrong.
I don’t mean that the Colorado Supreme Court’s finding would disqualify Trump in other states, I mean that by deciding to exclude a candidate from their state ballot, a single state’s Supreme Court has the potential to throw the national election.
This seems to me to disenfranchise that state’s own voters and also indirectly the voters of other states. In states without winner-take-all electoral allocation, swing states, and states where the judiciary is markedly to the left or right of the populace this seems especially concerning. If they can do so by calling whatever they want to an insurrection without the candidate actually having been found guilty of the crime of insurrection, that just seems bizarre and very dodgy.
It is also depressingly easy to imagine various states stretching the definition of insurrection to kick the other guy off the ballot forevermore if this were to hold up.
As for why it’s different if a particular state decides not to disqualify, it’s because that doesn’t transfer the power to decide elections from the electorate to the state judiciary. Not disqualifying is the default and doesn’t really require justification IMO.
a single state’s Supreme Court has the potential to throw the national election.
as I have been told over and over again, we don't have a "national election", we have 50 separate state elections.
This seems to me to disenfranchise that state’s own voters
what if the voters of a state vote for a state government that supports disqualifying Trump? Is it "disenfranchising voters" to forbid their state government from enacting the will of their voters?
An actual vote is obviously a more direct means of expressing one’s choice than a decision made by one’s elected representatives or an appointed judiciary.
I’m not in favor of pure democracy, but it seems to me that this is a case of a state government de facto arrogating to itself a choice that has been and should be the electorate’s.
That they are doing so on what is IMO a pretext is galling, but it’s not the main issue for me. Nor is my discomfort purely partisan—I would be as troubled if Texas were disqualifying Biden because, say, welcoming foreign invaders into the country is an act of treason or whatever.
I am hesitant to see the federal government interfere in a state’s electoral process, but it does seem to me that given that it’s our highest national office in question, it’s both deeply sketchy and impractical to have all the states separately deciding whether candidates are actually qualified under the Constitution to hold office. That seems like it would have to be decided at the federal level one way or another. Being actually convicted of insurrection would be a federal crime and an obvious disqualification.
A large number of states want to potentially disenfranchise their own voters, as evidenced by joining the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, promising to give all of their state's Electoral vote to the national popular vote winner, even if that candidate lost in their own state. Fortunately SCOTUS hasn't had to rule on that nonsense yet.
They can do that without joining a compact.
what if the voters of a state vote for a state government that supports disqualifying Trump?
Too bad for them.
Voting for the president is a federal function, not a state one. It is a federal interaction with the states, not a state interaction with the federal government.
States have fairly arbitrary rules on who can and can't get on the ballot. They exclude smaller parties all the time. Why not just write the rule that the DNC or RNC can not have a candidate on the ballot? Seems consistent with existing rules to exclude the small parties.
The Trumpanzee court could handle this like its Comstock-era precursors did. When the Colfax massacre indictments upset the Christian Klan, the Suprema gutted the 15th Amendment to deny uppity women the vote. It then disfigured the bill of rights and Reconstruction amendments, quashed the indictments and let the White Supremacists murder without fear. When Tilden the Dem won the popular AND electoral votes, Billy Sherman's brother recounted and installed prohibitionist whackjob Hayes as Prez.
https://twitter.com/algxtrading/status/1751746997873508396
The Hypothetical Scenario
A group of lawyers and secretaries of state across the United States, harboring a strong dislike for a particular presidential candidate, conspire to remove this candidate from ballots across various states during an election. They collaborate with some state secretaries to execute this plan. Their strategy involves invoking Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which addresses barring individuals from holding office if they have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the United States. The lawyers’ true motive, however, is not a genuine legal challenge based on the 14th Amendment but rather to prevent voters from casting ballots for this candidate. This intent is evidenced by their extensive social media history, showing a decade of animosity towards both the candidate and the candidate’s supporters.
Steps to Prove a Violation of Title 18, Section 241:
1. Establish the Existence of a Conspiracy: Show that there was a coordinated effort among the lawyers and possibly some state officials to undertake this action against the presidential candidate.
2. Demonstrate the Intent to Deprive Constitutional Rights: Prove that the primary aim of the conspiracy was to deprive the presidential candidate and their supporters of their constitutional rights, specifically the right to a fair electoral process.
3. Evidence of Pretextual Use of the 14th Amendment: Provide evidence that Section 3 of the 14th Amendment was misused as a cover for the actual intent of removing the candidate from the ballot. This could involve examining the lawyers’ social media history and other communications.
4. Link Between Conspiracy and Deprivation of Rights: Establish a clear connection between the conspiracy and the actual deprivation of rights. This would involve showing how the actions of the conspirators directly led to the candidate’s removal from the ballot and thus impacted the electoral process.
5. Proving Actions Under Color of Law: If state officials are involved, it must be demonstrated that they were acting under color of state law, which is a requirement for a violation of civil rights under federal law.
AFAIC the reason that the Trumpsuckers here deny that there was an attempted insurrection is because it failed.
Had the rioters succeed in disrupting the counting, Pence given in to Trump's pressure, or some of Congress had gone along with Trump's spurious legal arguments, Biden's legitimate election as president would have been delayed or aborted. And that would have constituted a successful insurrection.
You can lie and claim that there was some validity on the bogus and disproven grounds that the election was stolen, but doesn't change the obvious.
The framers of the 14A wrote it in the aftermath of the US Civil War, the bloodiest war in this nation’s history. That was the context. From their point of view, I doubt they would see a delayed election certification as anything even remotely similar to an actual insurrection.
Again, delaying certification, especially in terms of unrest and electoral malfeasance is not new. Given the Compromise of 1877 that didn't see Hayes seated until Mar. 2, almost a full 4 mos. after the election (as opposed to the usual 2), the idea of charging someone for insurrection for delaying the certification by a day or even a week is exceedingly laughable.
Would it though? The goal of the protest was to delay the count to ensure it was accurate, not to install Trump regardless of the true outcome.
Jacob, not one item of note from Justice Sotomayor? JFree might have labeled her the only one not a complete fool!
You conspicuously avoided the absolutely brutal lines of questioning by Gorsuch, who left Murray speechless and dumbfounded on more than one occasion.
The case is lost on every point for Colorado/Maine/Forces of Darkness:
1. Section 5 says Congress can enforce the law, not the states.
2. Section 3 says Presidential Electors are banned if they were insurrectionists, not Presidents.
3. Section 1 say Due Process must be followed before depriving anyone of Liberty, which presumably would include the Liberty to run for elected office, as one of the highest political liberties.
4. The riot on Jan. 6 was clearly not an insurrection.
5. Trump clearly did not call for insurrection, in fact he implored his supports to protest peacefully and patriotically.
6. Trump was the sitting President, was he trying to overthrow himself?
6. Trump was the sitting President, was he trying to overthrow himself?
Very great point!
"5. Trump clearly did not call for insurrection, in fact he implored his supports to protest peacefully and patriotically."
Yes, but super secret dogwhistles that only Democrat talking heads can parse.
As I indicate below, IMO the real issue is whether some/any CO election officials need to be impoverished if not hanged for this.
There are certainly parts of CO that didn't vote for it. A member of the CO government trying to usurp Congress is clearly a threat to others' sovereignty. As you indicate, the only way to reach the conclusion is through a very clear and dedicated series of misinterpretations. It's every bit the insurrection they allege against others and more as it's less visible and more systematic... but, of course, no one will get anything like the Jan. 6th protesters got because they were just doing their jobs. Even if that meant destroying the laws and principles they swore to uphold in their own imagined and selectively-enacted suicide pact.
Something that’s always glossed over is the fact that President Donald J Trump is only a figure head for a movement against an ideology. The online backlash against “Wokeness” began long before - the open border, constant attacks by Muslim terrorists, cancel culture and the sudden hard shift-Left gave need for a leader - Trump simply stepped up to voice our concerns and be our figurehead.
Chop him down and another rises.
So, if SCOTUS does reject, the members of the CO Supreme Court and the election officials responsible for violating their respective oaths and getting us into this mess will be strung up by the neck until dead, right?
Because, for all the perfectly accurate "It's lawfare." conclusions there is at least two "I swear to uphold and defend..."s, one followed by an "I object." and the other followed by an "Sustained."
1) It's the US Constitution for a US Government it's not the CO Constitution.
2) Democrats don't get to save 'our democracy' by destroying/cheating it.
Sullum ignores the Cruikshank case. When the 14th and 15th Amendments passed, women understood those to mean they as citizens could vote, and some were arrested for that and running for office. But Comstock's 1873 law made it clear chaingangs and the morgue were a woman's place. Cruikshank arguments spelled out that with the protective tariff entrenched, ku-klux rebs were again free to murder as many non-whites as they could ambush. The Trumpanzee court need only repeat specious whittling and install Orange Hitler the way the GOP installed Rutherford Hayes... with lies and bayonets.
Robert’s is right. The 14th was deliberately designed to prevent confederates from taking over states and defying civil liberties for ALL its citizens.
It’s also a remarkable ask to deny citizens the right to vote for their preferred candidate. As they wrote in Bush v Gore, the right to vote is plenary.
The Court really needs to be aware of Lawfare efforts going on, in general, and to respond accordingly.
I am concerned that a DA of any state can target any individual and scour the laws for a crim to pin on them. This defies the idea of due process.
I’m in no way a supporter of the bad orange man. Never considered voting for him. But my right to choose to should be up to me!
Odd that infiltrating Repuglican socks feel called upon to explicitly disavow Christian National Socialism before leaping to its assistance. Memories of anti LP vote fraud and infiltration for 5 decades slips down the Alzheimers' Hole. Unelected Cruikshank jurists made it law that states can beat women and throw them into the street or jail for trying to vote. That suited Comstock Republicans at the time. AfD nazis electing orange Race-Suicide Hitler is what suits God's Own Prohibitionists today. Remember that on election day.
Since you can't write better than a highschool meth addict I stop reading you. I would give an 'F" to any student who wrote :Unelected Cruikshank jurists made it law that states can beat women and throw them into the street or jail for trying to vote.
Violates the 3 things any writing must have
1) Clarity...this is sophistry under the disguise of Rolling Stone mag or Hunter Thompson pretensions
2) Citations to back up assertions
3) Using made up terms to insinuate actual existence, what we call in Philosophy 'reifying'. Is there really a definite group of folks
who call themselves Chrsitian National Socialists ? Or is this you deciding who is legally Black and who isn't as was done during the Civil War.
Even if you support the flawed idea that Colorado can remove a candidate (OK, it wouldn't be anyone but Trump or maybe Paul) from the ballot, this should disturb any lover of freedom and democracy:
"the court's ruling also bars the Colorado secretary of state from counting any write-in votes for Trump."
This a direct attack on voters and disenfranchisement. And, from the party that claims the Republicans disenfranchise voters. I'd laugh if it weren't so soviet/nazi inspired.
I gave the best years of my life standing up to the USSR; I'll be damned if I let my country become the NewSSR.
I'm not going to tell anyone to search it yourself, only assholes do that. https://www.newsweek.com/republican-plan-write-trump-colorado-one-major-problem-1854021
Pick up on the cross-dressing Trumpanzee rentboy! This one can join Tatsuya Hirohito, J (shame of Austin) P and Styxhexenwanker as payroll bulliers of girls. Howcum only two such Trumpanzees are infiltrated as Reason contributors?
MOre cut-and-paste, do you think we never see anyting else on the Web 🙂 After about a year of " cross-dressing Trumpanzee rentboy" maybe we can retire it and look for someone else's clever successor to it.
Cruikshank made 15th Amendment votes for women a dead letter, and supercharged conservative Republican arguments that Hitler's Christian National Socialist government had the same right to kill Jews in its jurisdiction as These United States did to have Billy Sherman March Across Comancheria and kill Native Americans by the trainload. Herbert Pell and Secretary Morgenthau's efforts to try nazi industrialists were sabotaged by Green Hackworth's bipartisan recycling of the Court's legalization of Klan mass murder to free Nazi leaders with their loot.
As I understand it, the Section 3 litigation was brought by citizen-plaintiffs, not by any state. The state of Colorado itself wasn’t the original plaintiff.
Since it involves the ballot and states control the ballot process, that is the secondary role of the state and the state courts.
The Section 5 argument has already been rebuffed in the book “The Citizen’s Constitution” by Seth Lipsky. Section 5 of the 14th Amendment was created to govern the previous Section 4. It has nothing to do with Section 3.
Congress has the authority to forgive a previous disqualification, but Section 5 does not give Congress sole authority to invoke Section 3.
Since the Bill of Rights and 14th Amendment were designed to “restrain” unconstitutional authority by government officials - the plaintiffs (citizens, not a state) are the federal plaintiffs suffering 14th Amendment injury (legal standing).
There is a valid point about future consequences of abuse, but what if Congress passed legislation requiring the votes of 100% of federal judges to convict on Section 3?
We could still have citizen-plaintiffs but a strong (federal) check & balance on the plaintiff by 100% of federal judges. Seems it’s constitutional and solves the federalism issue.
If the citizens were making a claim that their 14th amendment rights were violated why didn't they make the claim in a federal court?
Incidentally, "Brazil's Trump" Bolsonaro--he of the monkey-see, monkey-putsch rioters--has had his passport frozen as his vandalizing gang members are ungently convicted and herded into prison. A former wife had her Brazilian citizenship revoked and voting women cross the street to avoid the entire lot of copycat girl-bullying prohibitionist wankers. How long before the curtain is drawn back exposing Trumps televangelizing hypnotist-propagandizers and brainwashed jurists?
But you pretend that you have already seen behind the curtain because you are special and brilliant and in the know. This is why folks ignore you. Just another case of saying "he is an insurrectionist and soon it will be obvious" ,which means you have NO BASIS.
All of which shows that you assume that if someone votes for Trump they support insurrection and doing what is un-Constitutional. But the prima facie case is that they voted for him so they mustn't think that.
On what grounds is that an 'insurretion' if Texas' situation is NOT 'invasion' ?
Go to any dictionary and look BOTH words up
INSURRECTION