The Twisted Logic of Greg Abbott's Border Policy
Undocumented immigrants aren’t the same as an invading army, but the Texas governor keeps acting like they are.

The Supreme Court ruled Monday that Border Patrol agents could cut the concertina wire that Texas placed along the U.S.-Mexico border to block migrants from entering the state, adding new fuel to an ongoing conflict between Republican Gov. Greg Abbott and the Biden administration.
Texas has continued to place razor wire along the border, and now 25 Republican governors—every Republican governor in the country, except for Vermont's Phil Scott—are backing Abbott's actions. The governors issued a joint statement expressing support for Texas "utilizing every tool and strategy, including razor wire fences, to secure the border."
The governors and Abbott claim that states have a "right of self-defense" under Article 4, Section 4 of the Constitution (which guarantees that the federal government will "protect each [state] against Invasion") and Article 1, Section 10, Clause 3 (which allows states to "engage in War" if "actually invaded," which Abbott says gives Texas the "constitutional authority to defend and protect itself").
This argument misunderstands the long-established legal and practical definitions of an "invasion." It also misconstrues the nature of unauthorized migration.
James Madison and other drafters of the Constitution, Abbott argued, "foresaw that States should not be left to the mercy of a lawless president who does nothing to stop external threats like cartels smuggling millions of illegal immigrants across the border." But "those who cite Madison in support of equating immigration and invasion ignore the one time he directly addressed this very question," writes the George Mason University law professor Ilya Somin at The Volokh Conspiracy, a group blog hosted by Reason. Madison did so in "the Report of 1800, which rebutted claims that the Alien Friends Act of 1798 (which gave the president broad power to expel non-citizens) was authorized by the Invasion Clause."
"Invasion is an operation of war," declared Madison. "To protect against invasion is an exercise of the power of war. A power therefore not incident to war, cannot be incident to a particular modification of war. And as the removal of alien friends has appeared to be no incident to a general state of war, it cannot be incident to a partial state, or a particular modification of war."
"Every court that has reviewed the question" of what qualifies as an invasion has interpreted it as "an 'armed hostility from another political entity,'" wrote the Cato Institute's David J. Bier for Reason in 2021. In 1996, California made the same argument as Abbott, saying that the federal government had failed to protect it against an "invasion" of "illegal aliens." But the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit rejected that: "Even if the issue were properly within the Court's constitutional responsibility, there are no manageable standards to ascertain whether or when an influx of illegal immigrants should be said to constitute an invasion." Besides, the 9th Circuit said, California ignored Madison's conclusion in Federalist No. 43 that the Invasion Clause affords "protection in situations wherein a state is exposed to armed hostility from another political entity."
This is where Abbott runs into another issue: Undocumented immigrants bear little resemblance to an invading foreign army. Despite the constant invocations of "military-age" men crossing the border (the fearmonger's favorite way of saying "young men"), there has also been a historic influx of migrant families. Large groups of border crossers marching through the Sonoran Desert or trudging across the Rio Grande may make good footage for media outlets intent on fearmongering, but the overwhelming majority are coming here for economic or humanitarian reasons, not to commit crimes or sow chaos.
What brings chaos is a lack of legal immigration pathways. When pandemic-era border restrictions were in effect, barring the vast majority of migrants from seeking asylum, "gotaways" (those who successfully avoided arrest by Border Patrol) were their highest since 2005. The gotaway rate fell by half once the Title 42 border order ended. According to a National Foundation for American Policy brief last year, "100 years of Border Patrol apprehensions data" indicate that "none of the three U.S. periods with a significant decline in illegal immigration were due to enforcement policies."
By and large, people are happy to go through the legal immigration process if the steps are clear and accessible—but right now, they tend not to be. It's up to Congress to pass immigration reforms that recognize these realities. Abbott's misrepresentation of the Constitution does nothing to help.
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Semantics.
Misek is anti that.
While there are differences between an individual case and a group/public case, I claim that an individual trying to trespass on one's property is similar to a group of individuals trespassing on a nation. If a nation cannot control occupation of its land unless the trespasser is armed, there is no real meaning to nationhood, or statehood. There is no difference between a person breaking into the US and a person breaking into a home except the numbers involved.
Our betters only think of America as a resource colony, no better than any other territory they wish to exploit for their personal benefit.
You're conflating your own personal property with the property of the people. You appear to have an issue with someone using the public pool while many other could give a rats ass!
They aren’t stopping at the public pool. First, they shit up the pool, and then invade the private property around the pool. Ask the Texans around the border
The illegals didn't contribute to the funding of the public pool. They merely declare rights to it after the fact. And those who contributed are given no say per your demands.
Yes, it's a property rights issue. And as owners of the property - every inch of public land - the people, through their representatives, have the right to determine how and who may use it or visit it.
No - public property is not the same as private property. Private property owners are free to be as arbitrary as they wish for how the property may be used, short of NAP violations. For public property, the government - the actual owner - is obligated to respect the rights of everyone on that property.
Treating public property as if it were private property is just another way of advocating for mob rule on public land. Frankly, it is closer to pure communism.
If public property really could be treated like private property with the citizens being the "private property owners", then in a place like, say, California, the citizens could justly ban guns from public places (including public roads - no more transporting your guns from your house to the shooting range). The citizens could justly ban rallies by "hate groups" (aka Republicans, in their mind) from public land. Would that be acceptable? Obviously not. If the government tried to do that, it would be violating the rights of citizens.
"No – public property is not the same as private property."
It's property belonging to the taxpayers, you devious fuck. Municipal, state or federal. That's why someone from Illinois can't get the same hunting license for the same price in Montana, as a Montana resident.
It’s property belonging to the taxpayers
No it isn't. The property belongs to the state.
If you really think taxpayers own the property, then try selling your portion of the property. Or using it as collateral for a loan. Or trying to exercise sovereign authority over any portion of it. Guess what will happen - you will lose.
Semantical argument made in an attempt to obfuscate the issue at hand. Typical disingenuous sea lion bullshit.
It really is impossible to have an honest discussion with you.
CJ: yours is literally a statist rationale to argue that the citizens are not the owners of the state.
Why are you here?
He's here because communists trying to destroy everything are everywhere.
Public land is just another term for government land. The people are retards if they think they "own" it.
Good point. Tell it to the anarco-fascist von Mises Caucasians ruining the LP.
"anarco-fascist von Mises Caucas"
Hank, you stupid old fuck, do you know what any of those words even mean?
I see Shikha’s replacement is batting 1000
Semantics ?
More like Santa Anics Has JesseAz demanded a Gadsden Purchase refund yet?
Few in Texas would object to ceding territory so far from the Alamo , Goldwater Republicans know how to defend their turf, and Yuma has been ten degrees cooler than Washington DC of late.
Of course it’s an invasion. It’s not an organized military invasion, but doesn’t matter. Abbott is in the right, here.
Often it is organized, very organized, by NGOs funded by the regime who advertise and facilitate it
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https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1750683563593547832
From your tweet:
"Illegals storm the beaches of La Jolla, California"
Yup, just like Normandy on D-Day. Exactly the same. No difference.
You are correct. The machine gun nests are missing.
What about the mines?
Don't even think about mines- General Atomics is in La Jolla.
As we watch China and other nations deploy hundreds and hundreds of thousands of infantry into America over biden's open southern border, does anyone even care?
No.
Everybody wants a welfare check and free entertainment.
Nobody is willing to work.
No one said it was just like Normandy, you fat fucking Marxist piece of shit.
"It's an invasion"
Jeff - "Its not at all like nOrMaNdY oN D-dAy"
Peak Chemjeff.
He’s just intrinsically dishonest. I would call him a pile of shit. But at least a pile of shit can be used to fertilize crops.
Chemjeff could one day be used for that same purpose.
It's similar to the "J6 wasn't the Civil War" argument.
Of course, the term "invasion" is well understood as involving an "operation of war", which is absent here, and the term "insurrection", while being less well understood, has an historic meaning which can be applied to the current situation.
Biden could solve this tomorrow by following the law and then this question of the definition of a word would be moot. That Biden is more interested in tearing down a defensive barrier and allowing illegal immigration instead of tell the illegals to enter through the legal Port Of Entry right next to the park should be a giant sign of what the true intent is.
It is the same. No one is using said it was "exactly" the same, except you, with your pathetic, cowardly, straw man.
An "operation of war", is it?
Look at how many nations are represented by the people entering. You think there are that many military age Chinese living in Mexico normally?
>>Undocumented immigrants aren’t the same as an invading army
everyone has opinions.
Yes, but some have facts. And the fact is they're not the same as an invading army. See: Washington DC, August 24, 1814
It is amazing watching you idiots claim a protest is an insurrection yet deny 6M with a large majority of those military aged men and also known terrorists crossing doesn't fall under invasion.
I've never gotten that one.
How can you view a riot as an attempt to overthrow a fucking government for....reasons but fail to see how untold millions of military age men coming into your country and, in ways, being treated better than citizens (they certainly have a MUCH nicer time getting thru airports) cannot be viewed as an invasion?
1/6 led to nothing. The mass illegal problem has screwed over citizens in cities and strained resources in numerous locations.
So when Nevada hosts Burning Man, which attracts thousands of military aged men and strains resources who are treated better than locals, they are openly inviting invasion and therefore treasonous.
Fucking stupid.
You’re right, it is fucking stupid to compare a ticketed event to a national border. The ticket implies something, does it not? Last I checked, which was just now, a ticket to burning man costs $575.
What do you think is the appropriate action for the burning man concert host if someone is found there without a ticket? Let them stay, thus making buying a ticket moot, or kick them out until they buy a ticket?
‘Obviously’ is a poster child of why it’s impossible to have an honest, logical discussion with a leftist. Best to just scrape them off.
Someone should sell tickets at the border, and then it would be the same?
This is easily the dumbest take on the subject I've seen yet, and I've been here since the Shikha days.
So, bravo, I guess?
"Nevada" does not host Burning Man. The Burning Man Organization (hereafter referred to as BMOrg, the same way they do) hosts Burning Man, on BLM property, for which they pay an incredibly large usage fee, which includes paying for the presence off a lot of local law enforcement.
And Burning Man (which I have been to a number of times, Yay Thunderdome!) has a strongly defined border (with a fence!) -- which is patrolled (by people with IR goggles at night) -- and has a clearly defined Port of Entry, at which they will search your vehicle both for contraband and people trying to sneak into the festival without a ticket. And if they find one, they ban every single person in the vehicle from attending.
And while I will grant that the traffic to and from the event does somewhat strain that particular resources (roads) for a day or two on each end of the event, the attendees are not "treated better than the locals" as they're often treated as a source of income for the surrounding counties by law enforcement, and they also bring in a lot of income to the area, paying prices which are frequently inflated for the duration of the event.
Almost godsdamned none of which is true for people sneaking over the southern border of the US from Mexico.
I was not going to be mean and comment on how idiotic your example is.
Fortunately, BYODB did.
You are correct...you are very stupid, and your grades in school liked reflected this.
I think the evidence is strong that the illegal aliens overrunning the border are not engaging in an "invasion" as that term was understood by the Founding Fathers. Having said that, it is equally clear that these "migrants" are engaging in criminal conduct and they have no legal or moral "right" to enter this country. It is also clear that Biden is refusing to enforce our nation's immigration laws because he's hoping to create the permanent Democrat Majority that his party's fucked up policies have failed to create.
Every sovereign nation had the right (and duty) to enforce its borders. Anybody who denies that is either an anarchist or a fucking idiot.
Apparently, a few hundred citizens carrying flags and wearing costumes peacefully entering the People's house are more frightening to them than many millions of foreigners with no ties to the US or its culture coming in and trampling private property, raping and killing, demanding changes to the law, and living off the welfare system.
Hmm, now which contingent of Americans really likes food trucks (at least in concept), hires nannies and groundskeepers, and puts up yard signs praising immigrants?
a large majority of those military aged men
This is the bit I take issue with. It's an appeal to emotion and has precisely jack and shit to do with the issue. Just because they are aged for military service, which according to the government is basically anyone male over 16, is meaningless.
It's an attempt to frame the issue as an invasion. Nothing more, and nothing less.
It’s an appeal to emotion
That's right. Guess which emotion it's an appeal to. Fear. It's literally fearmongering.
Fear mongering is unnecessary you fat fuck. The reality of the situation speaks for itself.
Goddamn you’re a lying Marxist cunt.
The reality is that someone is fearmongering.
A child chasing a butterfly across a border is an invasion, as is an ICBM. A difference in degree is not a difference in kind. The Constitution, in the very last clause of Section 10 in Article 1 allows the States to defend themselves if “…actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.” Grand Goblin Greg is right by law. The solution in the 1972 LP platform is to repeal drug prohibition laws, not bribe Latin American politicians to enforce them to the detriment of their own countrymen and economies.
>>And the fact is they’re not the same as an invading army
literally an opinion. don't make someone parse out each word it's Friday afternoon
Sure, Alice.
So, as long as they mostly leave their guns at home, tens of millions of foreigners are allowed to come into the country unimpeded? Is that the argument Fiona is making?
Yes. Yes it is. Her philosophy is ‘open borders at any cost’.
Depends how you define words.
Army: A large number of people or things, typically formed or organized for a particular purpose.
Invade: Enter (a place, situation, or sphere of activity) in large numbers, especially with intrusive effect.
Linguistically reasonable.
And BLM were 'fiery but mostly peaceful protests' - facts?
So far not a single fuel-air detonation
Are you asking about the statistics, or the feelz?
And the fact is they’re not the same as an invading army.
Neither were the pilgrims.
The neoliberal political writer Mickey Kaus remarked:
Reconquista is a little—a little extreme. If you talk to people in Mexico, I'm told, if you get them drunk in a bar, they'll say we're taking it back, sorry. That's not an uncommon sentiment in Mexico, so why can't we take it seriously here?
Political scientist Samuel P. Huntington, a proponent of the widespread popularity of Reconquista, stated in 2004:
Demographically, socially and culturally, the reconquista (re-conquest) of the Southwest United States by Mexican immigrants is well under way. [However, a] meaningful move to reunite these territories with Mexico seems unlikely.... No other immigrant group in U.S. history has asserted or could assert a historical claim to U.S. territory. Mexicans and Mexican-Americans can and do make that claim.[16]
The fringe group Nationalist Front of Mexico opposes what it sees as Anglo-American cultural influences[5] and rejects the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, as well as what its members consider the "American occupation" of territory formerly belonging to Mexico and now form the southwestern United States.
On its website, the front states:
We reject the occupation of our nation in its northern territories, an important cause of poverty and emigration. We demand that our claim to all the territories occupied by force by the United States be recognized in our Constitution, and we will bravely defend, according to the principle of self-determination to all peoples, the right of the Mexican people to live in the whole of our territory within its historical borders, as they existed and were recognized at the moment of our independence.[6]
A prominent advocate of Reconquista was the Chicano activist and adjunct professor Charles Truxillo (1953–2015)[7] of the University of New Mexico (UNM). He envisioned a sovereign Hispanic nation, the República del Norte (Republic of the North), which would encompass Northern Mexico, Baja California, California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.[8] He supported the secession of US Southwest to form an independent Chicano nation and argued that the Articles of Confederation gave individual states full sovereignty, including the legal right to secede.[7][9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista_(Mexico)
Sure, but as I understand, the heritage of El Norte (one of Colin Woodard's nations), including the US southwest and northern Mexico, was just as antagonistic towards the Spanish in Mexico City as towards the Gringos on the east coast.
I could see Reconquista producing a third nation, with its own distinct culture, and geography, and a "leave us the fuck alone" attitude.
If the Mexicans ever took over the Southwest, even as a separate nation, it would be as dystopian as old Mexico. The population would be sneaking across the borders "for a better life".
Note to foreign readers: Neo- means nonexistent; the prefix is a political anti-concept. When Britain was bombarding China to repeal Chinese opium prohibition laws, the US attacked China's trade partner Mexico. China and Mexico were beaten and surrendered, Texas joined and shifted debts to the Union. The secessionist confederacy was also beaten and surrendered. These facts of reality are unimpressed by wishful thinking, special pleading or sore loser whining. China could have legalized backyard poppies, but preferred off-with-their-heads prohibition. That too is a fact.
For Chicano nationalists in the 1960s, the term was not used, but many often felt that "Aztlán" should undergo cultural revival and expansion.[24]
In the late 1990s to the early 2000s, as US census data showed that the population of Mexican Americans in the Southwestern United States had increased, and the term was popularized by contemporary intellectuals in Mexico, such as Carlos Fuentes, Elena Poniatowska, and President Vicente Fox,[8][16][25] who spoke of Mexican immigrants maintaining their culture and Spanish language in the United States as they migrated in greater numbers to the area.
In March 2015, at the midst of the War in Ukraine, when the US was planning on supporting Ukraine to fight against Russia, Dukuvakha Abdurakhmanov, the speaker of the Chechen Parliament, threatened to arm Mexico against the United States and questioned the legal status of the territories of California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming.[26]
'Undocumented' instead of illegal because they are trying to soften the story.
You have 26 states and counting that disagree with you on this and side with Texas. Ten of them have already sent their guard troops to help.
https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1750943686567834008
They're wrong.
The masses of people coming here illegally are wrong.
Citizens of this country have every right to expect the borders of their country to be defended, and the federal government has a constitutional obligation to do so. An obligation that they are deliberately failing to meet.
The masses of people coming here illegally are wrong.
You understand that telling them to "just wait in line" is a cruel joke, right?
Citizens of this country have every right to expect the borders of their country to be defended
military invasion is not the same as migration
I didn't say anything about a military.
That is what the Constitutional reference to "invasion" had in mind. A military invasion by an actual organized army operating under the direction of a foreign sovereign power. Not penniless Guatemalans choosing to migrate to a different country.
Abbott, and these red state governors, and now you apparently, cynically twist the definition of 'invasion' to justify kicking out the scary foreigners.
So are you saying that the US government doesn’t have an obligation to secure the border in order to regulate the flow and processing of immigrants?
The Constitutional provision to protect the states from invasion refers to an organized military force under the direction of a foreign sovereign power, not random bunches of people choosing to migrate here.
So, it doesn't protect them from small groups or even individuals hiding amongst the "migrants"? Also, just because they show up here doesn't mean we need to let them in, Jeffy. Plenty of others get turned around daily just deciding to drive across the other border.
Nope. There is no adjective about an "armed" vs "unarmed" invasion.
That didn’t answer my question.
Well then, if the power to stop unarmed migrants is not a federal power, it belongs to the states as per the 10th Amendment.
What about all the terrorists that have filtered in? And don’t say that isn’t happening as we have all kinds of official warning s saying it already has.
Or Commerce! Or smuggled illegal items!
So as long as they aren't carrying firearms it's okay?
As long as they are not an organized fighting force operating under the orders of a foreign sovereign power, like an actual army.
Sleeper cells.
Where are these "sleeper cells"? Do you have any evidence other than one-off anecdotes or wild fantasies that "they might be terrorists"?
This is the type of shit that actual libertarians rail against - the invocation of shadowy faceless nameless enemies by the state in order to justify taking away your liberties.
Why are the democrats arresting and imprisoning their political opponents?
I thought we didn't allow that kind of Nazi shit in America?
"Migration" also is not the same as crossing the street. Unless you say that requiring pedestrians to cross at crosswalks is a "cruel joke".
If there was a 30-year wait before you were permitted to cross the street legally, you would engage in jaywalking too.
Twisted logic to a worthless analogy. Why not just argue the policy of letting in 10 million (9.6million so far) unvetted asylum seekers when it will take years to process them. Do you think that is a good policy? Just make your case on that. At least that is something worth discussing.
By government estimates there were already 11.4 million illegal aliens in 2018. Add that to the current numbers and they may be a bigger population than every state, except California.
"If there was a 30-year wait before you were given consent, you would engage in rape too."
Jeff logic
rape = violent crime
crossing the street = nonviolent crime at MOST
sure, totally comparable
You're the one who made a retarded analogy, not me.
It's his speciality.
We’re not talking about jaywalking, spitting on the sidewalk, or anything else like that. Quit trying to deflect. You’ve lost this debate. Like you lose every debate.
You’re just a lying cunt. GTFO.
""You understand that telling them to “just wait in line” is a cruel joke, right?""
No it's not. It's actually expected behavior in a civilized society.
As I have mentioned before, the length of the "line" is up to 30 years for some classes of immigration.
So expecting people to follow the rules is of course "expected behavior in a civilized society", but this is predicated upon the rules themselves being reasonable.
Oh well. If you are waiting 30 years to get in here you obviously offer nothing of value to the country.
You have no idea how the legal immigration system works. The 30-year wait time has nothing to do with merit. It has to do with arbitrary quotas imposed on certain countries of origin.
And yet 143 other countries have immigration policies too.
Great - let's have an immigration policy, but one that respects liberty and actually has a chance at working well. Just building bigger walls and hiring more guards is doomed to fail, just like the Drug War.
So how about this: anyone can come here and get a work permit, except if that person is a known criminal or carrying some horrible disease. There, easy peasy. No need to abuse the asylum system because economic migrants will have a way to come here and work (which is what the vast majority want to do) without needing a fake claim of asylum.
“Great- let’s have an immigration policy,…..”
We already do. You just don’t like it.
Shoot-first prohibitionism failed after killing people over beer for 14 years and wrecking the economy. Republican emphasis shifted to shoot-first prohibitionism of mescaline, weed and tens of thousands of other things--ALL of them safer than beer or cigarettes. South Americans were hit hardest. Their shrubs could bring hard currency into the economy. But mystical laws say they must import DEA agents to kidnap them to Miami Star Chambers and confiscate their property. Drug LAWS invaded those poor wretches' countries.
So? We have no obligation to admit foreigners here.
You understand that telling them to “just wait in line” is a cruel joke, right?
There's nothing cruel about telling non-citizens they're not allowed to enter. Nations have been doing it for millennia.
The Open Society is nothing more than pathological altruism.
except violating freedom of association, which you don't give a shit about anyway
Freedom of association means not letting in more child molesters as "asylum seekers."
It's not violating "freedom of association." You are free to leave. The country would be better for it. Unfortunately you would have to find a willing nation to receive your sorry ass.
"You understand that telling them to “just wait in line” is a cruel joke, right?"
They have no right to be here.
I'm supposed to feel bad that somebody with zero rights to be here might have challenges getting here?
They have no right to be here.
If I invite you onto my property, would you say you have a "right" to be on my property? Would you have that right to be on my property even if my neighbors didn't want you on my property?
If I disinivite you, do you have the right to be here?
We did not invite them to be here. So your analogy already fails.
And as asked before me --- if you tell me to leave, am I STILL invited?
If the private property owner disinvites a guest from his/her private property, then no, that guest is no longer entitled to be present on the property.
But, public property is not private property, you don't get to make the rules for public property.
"But, public property is not private property, you don’t get to make the rules for public property."
We have already made the rules.
Biden is ignoring them.
Biden should be impeached, then put in trial for treason. Along with most of his administration.
I have seen numerous aliens explain that "Biden invited me" to flee into the USA. And Reagan, BushBush and The Don send goons to invade their governments, loot, murder, bribe and kidnap until Caudillo fascisti run the country like a Gestapo Thought Police. Stopping US drug prohibitionism from wrecking their economy is the way to remove the cause rather--than treat the inevitable economic symptoms of the initiation of irrational force.
Illegal entry and illegal immigration isn't the same as migration, "undocumented migrants," or whatever euphemism you'd like to come up with. Calling them parasites would be a much more accurate euphemism.
more with the dehumanization rhetoric, just as expected
why not call them vermin while you are at it?
You understand that telling them to “just wait in line” is a cruel joke, right?
Tell that to the HSA agent next time you try to pass through passport control at JFK.
You are saying that citizens entering legally should be subjected to more scrutiny than undocumented foreigners. You get that, right?
No - the entire system is broken and should be rebuilt from the ground up.
And I am not referring to a literal wait in a literal line. It is figurative - a person applying for legal residency today, from certain countries, can wait up to 30 years until that application even moves on to the interview stage. That person is not literally waiting in a literal line for 30 years. I thought that was understood.
So? First, that’s an extreme example. Second, we have no duty to these people. They don’t have to come here. The system would also be muc Bette if not for you and your democrat asters bringing millions of illegals here.
Basically, YOU are the problem.
What is not understood is that these victims of Latin American economies ruined by Yankee prohibitionism can barely read. An impressive number scrawl like third-graders. I have translated many of their naif pleas pro bono. The USA benefited from Germans fleeing Yourup in the 1840s, Jews fleeing Russia after 1905, and technically competent souls fleeing the collapse and wars brought on by the Hague convention. That last the USA pushed at China's instigation as of 1909, and WW1 resulted.
Tell that to Romulus Augustus, in German perhaps.
It is. The difference is one of degree. Germans in huge crowds cheered and saluted Jew-hating National Socialist aggression. Those same crowds then whined when unequal yet apposite reprisal rained down on them collectively. Yet their Fuhrer came to power thanks to Herbert "New Race" Hoover (and Wilson, Harding & Coolidge) exporting prohibition laws to Germany via the League of Nations. Hoover worsened that prohibition in 1931 just as the Five and Ten law worsened beer prohibition Stateside in 1929. Force was initiated, economies crashed, war prevailed.
What is wrong are politicians of both parties who refuse to do anything about the current broken immigration system and use the plight of poor desperate migrants as pawns in their own desire for power. Both Team Red and Team Blue do it of course, but while Team Blue tends to be arrogant and condescending on the matter, Team Red tends to be bigoted and xenophobic instead.
Which is worse?
"Both sides" and name calling in the same argument. Lame.
Mystical kleptocracy looters are "both" entrenched parties. That is one side. Libertarian repeal of the drug laws causing all this is the other. Prohibitionism is the Inquisition 3.0. The first was the Whore of Babylon in the 1400s, the second was the Third Reich, 1933-45 and this current one--besides enabling Hitler in 1931--is now causing normal people to flee South America like Jews fleeing Europe--fleeing identical Christian fanatics.
Time for hospice Hank. And it’s long overdue.
So which side opened the borders to all comers. No vetting and no follow up.
No one "opened the border to all comers". You have been watching too much Fox News.
We do not know who is coming in. We do not know where they are. If they commit crimes, we seldom deport them.
Feel free to explain how your position is right.
But that is not true. Every asylum applicant gets a biometric screening and a court date. The government most certainly does know who they are.
Anyone who commits a legitimate crime, such as a NAP violation, should be prosecuted, including migrants. If that isn't happening then that is wrong. But I seriously doubt that your claim that migrants who break the law are "seldom deported", that sounds more like what you would hear on Fox News.
"But that is not true."
...except it is.
"Every asylum applicant gets a biometric screening and a court date."
Patently false on biometric. And given that they no-show court dates as is, the court date could not be more meaningless.
"Anyone who commits a legitimate crime"
"Legitimate crime",..cute. Good to know that you now forgive certain crimes because you do not like it.
You're aware that them being here at all is a crime, right?
"If that isn’t happening then that is wrong."
It is happening.
"But I seriously doubt that your claim that migrants who break the law are “seldom deported”, that sounds more like what you would hear on Fox News."
I guess, for you, ignorance is bliss.
Here is the application for asylum, right here. It collects a whole lot of information on each applicant.
https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/forms/i-589.pdf
So? Biden has caused our southern border to be swarmed by millions of illegals. This is his fault, and yours for supporting it.
Both of you should be tried and executed.
A court date 8 years from now? Fucking ridiculous.
A biometric screening? Against what data?
Entering illegally is a crime. By your logic, I can come into your house anytime I see fit and sleep on the couch.
You are right, Fox News is the only channel that will replay the 2020 Democrat debates where Joe Biden in fact said that they should rush the border in anticipation of him opening it up
Liberland. Liberland WAS what the anarcofascist von Mises Caucasians want: no borders, no defense, no laws, no rights. Now is is absorbed inro a Youropean pan-slavic dictatorship. Happy now?
"What is wrong are politicians of both parties who refuse to do anything about the current broken immigration system and use the plight of poor desperate migrants as pawns in their own desire for power."
Biden is ignoring the law. Why REWARD that?
You're the one trying to use their plight for power.
He's not ignoring the law. Actually, the "Remain In Mexico" policy from Trump was what was ignoring the law - it was refoulment of refugees.
The law says that if a person applies for asylum, then that person is entitled to a certain amount of due process. It is you and your team that wants to ignore the law and take away their due process and just kick them out regardless.
"He’s not ignoring the law."
Yes, he is.
"Actually, the “Remain In Mexico” policy from Trump was what was ignoring the law – it was refoulment of refugees."
Mexico is a safe country by the terms of the treaty.
They should not even be given a hearing AT ALL in the USA, given that most of them are decidedly not from Mexico.
Yes, he is.
Specifically, which one?
Mexico is a safe country by the terms of the treaty.
They should not even be given a hearing AT ALL in the USA, given that most of them are decidedly not from Mexico.
That's your opinion. Great. It is not for you to decide or some border guard flunky to decide. It is for the asylum process to decide. That is what happens. And for a large number of them, their asylum applications are denied, just as you demand that they should be. But that is only after the applicant has made his/her case.
Once again it is you and your team that wants to ignore the law, ignore the asylum process, and kick them out without even a shred of due process.
There is a treaty. It spells it out quite explicitly.
Opinion is not even part of the discussion.
This is the part where he tries to sea lion his way out of it by demanding endless minutia.
Like the puzzle with a rope thru a system of pulleys and a hanging sword. Pull down on the rope and the sword goes up. Repeal the drug prohibition laws and the drugs no longer cost 4x as much. Gardens grow, thugs quit breaking in doors, economy thrives. Look at news accounts in tens of thousands of issues of Western Hemisphere newsprint on Google News Archives. Before 1909 there were no drug gangs, no Pancho Villas, no drug LAW problem. Drug laws make production and trade illegal, and call for gunplay.
Apparently jeff doesn't agree with cultural consensus when it disagrees with him.
And how so, almighty galloper?
It never occurred in your pompous mind that it may be you, in fact, that is wrong. By the way, YOU ARE WRONG!!
They’re not. You are wrong. You are almost always wrong. You are also a liar and have expressed your desire to allow foreign pedophiles and other sex offenders unlimited access to our nation. While simultaneously advocating for policies that protect those who would groom small children.
They don't disagree. Nobody in Texas politics is suggesting shooting all the illegal immigrants on sight. Which IS what they would be suggesting if it was an invading army. But an invasion doesn't necessitate an armed force.
Jeffy has to use hyperbole like that because his argument is weak.
If 20 strangers walk into your house, use the facilities, and refuse to leave then do you describe them as undocumented cohabitants? Let's pretend you left the door wide open. Does that give passers-by the right to enter and claim ownership of the property? Let's try a more relevant comparison. Say you lock the front door and somebody wedges open the window while ignoring "no trespassing" signs to enter your home. Would you consider those 20 people home invaders? If you care about property rights then this circumstance is a crisis.
On a national level these people are invading. They ignore no trespassing signs. They bypass or destroy any security measures being placed in opposition. This stupid denial that they are invaders is already ridiculous, but is further asinine if Fiona would take half a second to acknowledge that the cartels and other groups are engaged in armed combat to facilitate the illegal entry.
What's even funnier about this article is that just about every quote she presents is a contradiction to her premise.
Fucking idiot
If 20 strangers walk into your house, use the facilities, and refuse to leave then do you describe them as undocumented cohabitants?
If 20 strangers walk into your house, use the facilities, and refuse to leave, is that the same as if 20 strangers walk into your house, seize your property, rape and kill you and your family, and claim the land as their sovereign property on behalf of their government?
Jesus, you’re fucking retarded.
Are you worried you’ll miss out on all the child trafficking?
Short answer: yes.
You're twisting the argument without answering the question. Do you feel compelled to share your quarters with your new undocumented cohabitants or do you feel invaded?
Oh, and by the way there are some that are attacking people, raping, stealing, trashing or vandalizing and other crimes. What are they, mostly peaceful undocumented migrants because they don't claim the land for their sovereign government?
do you feel invaded?
Oh I see. So the definition of "invasion" as a Constitutional matter, is based on how one FEEEEEEEELS about it.
And here I thought it was the left-wingers who operated on an emotional level. I guess it's right-wingers too.
What are they, mostly peaceful undocumented migrants because they don’t claim the land for their sovereign government?
Yes, but unironically. Like any large group of people, there are some who are bad apples. That is true of Guatemalan migrants and that is true of Americans as well. But the vast majority are not horrible people, they are just ordinary people like you and me, who want to come here for better opportunities for themselves and their families.
And why, Jeffy, should they be allowed into the US? Just because someone shows up on your national doorstep does not mean you have to let them in.
Why not? For the most part, they are not criminals, they are not carrying some horrible disease, they only want to come here for better opportunities for themselves and their families. What reason is there to keep them out?
Also note, migration is not the same as naturalization. I am not arguing that they should all become citizens. I am arguing that free people should be permitted to migrate where they wish, with some very modest restrictions.
with some very modest restrictions.
Such as?
Wonder if jeff even understands that there are more people wanting to come here than current infrastructure can meet. He doesn't carr. He thinks infrastructure magically appears. I doubt he has ever produced anything but child porn and sophistry.
Open borders at any cost. Pedo Jeffy is the enemy within.
People migrate all the time to different places where the infrastructure is insufficient. You being an apparent resident of the state of Arizona should appreciate that.
What happens, is that the market responds to the demand in infrastructure.
We don’t even have the infrastructure needed to accommodate the interstate migration of citizens. It’s a huge problem in Texas re: water, roads, and storm water runoff.
Again this argument that migration should be stopped because "the infrastructure can't handle it" is directly an argument in favor of central planning of resources and for TOP MEN to direct the flow of migration to where people are "supposed" to go based on infrastructure. Is that really the argument that you want to make?
How about this instead: let people migrate where they want to go, that migration sends market signals to those that provide infrastructure to increase the supply to match demand. If the migration goes to a place where it is very difficult to provide that infrastructure, then the price of providing that infrastructure will be prohibitively high and very few migrants will go there.
I didn’t say a damn thing about it being stopped, I just pointed out that we’re being taxed by the strain the interstate migration is putting on our systems, and that’s immigration that is 100% allowed because they’re fellow US citizens.
And of course, if there was anything close to a free market in infrastructure, migration would be a market force, but seeing as the government controls or outright owns pretty much all the infrastructure, your solution is less than useless.
The have to live in 4 star instead of 5 star hotels and get caviar every other Tuesday.
with some very modest restrictions.
Is that like "common sense gun control"?
Limiting migration of known criminals and people with horrible diseases. Those are the modest restrictions that I had in mind.
You literally whined at the thought of not letting in child molesters as "asylum seekers."
How about this instead: stop poaching all the young people from south of the border so they can clean your fucking toilet, and let them figure out how to make their country a better place. The old timers sure ain’t gonna do it.
Doesn’t do much for your white savior fetish, but if they can’t figure it out then this goes on forever.
Let’s just expatriate leftists like Jeffy. Although most countries will have the same problem with him. Given his pedophilic enthusiasms.
Send him to Afghanistan. He'll fit right in.
Didn’t you complain about Trumps policy of stopping them from entering during the height of Covid in 2020?
"For the most part, they are not criminals,"
By definition, and illegal alien is a criminal!
Not true. The crime of crossing the border without papers is a misdemeanor only.
A misdemeanor is a type of criminal offense in Arizona. It is less severe than a felony crime, but more severe than a petty offense.
https://www.salwinlaw.com/criminal-defense/misdemeanors/class-1-misdemeanor-crimes/#:~:text=A%20misdemeanor%20is%20a%20type,severe%20than%20a%20petty%20offense.
Texas too….
Uh, you do realize that a misdemeanor is still a crime, right?
Why not? For the most part, they are not criminals, they are not carrying some horrible disease, they only want to come here for better opportunities for themselves and their families. What reason is there to keep them out?
Because some of them may fall into those categories you mentioned. That's why there's a vetting process, and since there are millions of people who want to enter the country, vetting them can take time. And if there are warning flags along the way, that process may take longer. Your position seems to be that America let in everyone in good faith and find the disease-ridden and/or the criminals later.
Is that an accurate assessment?
What you describe is already a part of the asylum application process that is already taking place. The process that you and your team is claiming is a "BIDEN BORDER CRISIS" that must be stopped.
since there are millions of people who want to enter the country, vetting them can take time.
Or, the state provides more resources to vet those people efficiently and expediently. How about that instead?
Your position seems to be that America let in everyone in good faith and find the disease-ridden and/or the criminals later.
No - my position is that border enforcement should be limited only to stopping people who are criminals and those who are carrying horrible diseases. That isn't how it works now.
Yeah, there is no border enforcement now, which is exactly how you like it.
Or, the state provides more resources to vet those people efficiently and expediently. How about that instead?
How, exactly, is that going to speed up getting information from other countries? Waiting for a response can often be the thing that takes a long time when you're trying to approve someone for entry. The countries of origin have little to no incentive to be prompt or accurate. Are you going to demand that those states also increase resources when the US asks for a background check on someone claiming asylum? How do you enforce it?
Be specific. Show your work.
No – my position is that border enforcement should be limited only to stopping people who are criminals and those who are carrying horrible diseases.
Except you have to wait to find out if they are either of those things before you allow entry, right? Checking for diseases is quicker. Checking if they're criminals is not.
For the most part, they are not criminals
OK. Then they should be more than glad to get in line and be vetted to enter the country just like citizens are when they return. If not, they are criminals, many violent.
But that is what happens now.
No, it isn’t. We hav e millions of illegals here. Because of global Marxists, such as yourself.
Wow, your stupidity is utterly f**king astounding. If they were all law-abiding, as you say, then how do you reconcile the FACT that they are breaking the law when they enter illegally....careful, don't hurt your little brain trying to spin-process that..
You're an idiot and still didn't answer the question but tried to conflate it with the general thought on how the left tends to react emotionally.
The question was specific. If the situation described,
If 20 strangers walk into your house, use the facilities, and refuse to leave then do you describe them as undocumented cohabitants?
Would you, ChemJeff, feel like your home was invaded?
Now you will likely pivot to public vs private and add some more disingenuous thoughts while cherry picking a sentence or single word to support them. Great argument.
Do you agree that from the Indian perspective, Colonists invaded North America?
Do you agree that the wagon trains were seen as an invasion?
What about the trunk bears?
They’re only a problem if the migrants let them out of their knapsacks.
For those not aware of this statement and in order to keep it alive. Or just want to relive the hilarious sophistry...
https://reason.com/podcast/2021/10/25/freedom-responsibility-and-coronavirus-policy/?comments=true#comment-9176512
For me, there is zero difference.
If you come into my house uninvited and refuse to leave and use my resources, then fuck you. Property rights are paramount, even if YOU personally do not give a shit about them.
And if they enter your house forcibly you can shoot them. We should apply the same standard at the border when they enter the people's house.
The nation is not "the people's house". The government must abide by different rules than a private property owner. A just government is obligated to protect the liberty of everyone on the property. A private property owner, not so much.
But it is. We pay for it.
But there is no obligation to let anyone else into the property. Nor is there a right for anyone to stay if they are not on the property legally. The government actually has a legal responsibility to attempt to enforce the laws as passed by the duly elected representatives of the people. As a citizen, you have the right to do anything legally in your power to change the laws (voting, seeking office, changing the opinions of your fellow citizens through intelligent debate... based on what I've seen so far that last one ain't gonna happen) . The executive branch, at all levels, does not have the right to pick and choose which laws to enforce and which lawbreakers to punish.
And if your home security company put locks on your windows to better secure your house, would the county sheriff come out and make you remove the window locks, because someone might get cut on the glass if they had to break your window to get in?
national borders =/= private property borders
As much as you don’t wish it to be so, every government on the face of the earth disagrees.
What brings chaos is a lack of legal immigration pathways.
This right here. That is why there are so many migrants making bogus claims of asylum. That is why there are so many migrants willing to use the services of very questionable coyotes. Because the legal immigration system, for them, is a cruel joke.
For some classes of legal immigration, the "wait in line" can take up to 30 years. That is not a realistic pathway for anyone. Many migrants realize this and understand that if they really want to come here, while they would prefer to come legally, they effectively cannot do so.
Penniless Guatemalans are not an invading army. To refer to desperate migrants as if they were no different than an armed military force bent on conquest is to deliberately engage in base xenophobic fearmongering. It is to say "you should be afraid of those foreigners, they come here to do bad things, just like an invading army would". The fact of the matter is, the vast majority come here don't want to harm anyone, they just want to come here for better opportunities for themselves and their families. That's it. Not to invade and conquer and plunder. Just to have a better shot at economic stability for themselves and their families.
I prefer that the legal immigration system be reformed such that migrants have the opportunity to come here to get work permits, with the legal authority to work here - then, whole families don't have to uproot themselves to come here, one or two members of a migrant's family can come here to work seasonally or periodically, travel to and fro across the border to visit their families, and "fix their own country" the way so many of you demand that they should.
But even if you don't agree and you don't want migrants coming here to work, to say that they are such a threat that they should be regarded as an invading army, is a disgusting exercise in demagoguery. Be better than that.
https://twitter.com/BillMelugin_/status/1736928008433537100
That is why there are so many migrants making bogus claims of asylum
Yet they are all considered and labeled asylum seekers. Fix the system. Trump was clearly upsetting the applecart with his policies and forcing the issue. Instead, we have this clown show now.
Fix the system.
I agree! In my mind, fixing the system requires two steps:
1. Devote more resources to processing asylum claims more efficiently and expediently.
2. Give migrants the ability to seek a work permit so that they don't have to abuse the asylum system just to come here to work.
Economic migrants are not asylum seekers, Jeffy. Unless they're subjected to actual political persecution, they are not here for asylum.
Economic migrants are not asylum seekers
You're right! They're not! So many migrants are abusing the asylum system because the legal immigration system is such a cruel joke. If the legal immigration system permitted migrants to come here in an orderly and timely fashion without having to resort to bogus claims of asylum, then there wouldn't be this strain on the asylum system.
We had 300,000 people caught crossing the border illegally from Mexico in just December 2023. That's over 3 million per year. and a) that's just the illegal ones, and b) just the ones who were caught / processed by border patrol.
No matter how you try set up a reformed legal immigration system, no one is going to intentionally design it to take in 3 - 5 million people per year.
Maybe we shouldn't have TOP MEN dictating how many people crossing the border is "acceptable" or not.
Maybe instead the government's role should be limited to stopping those only who are known criminals or carrying some horrible disease. Otherwise, why not let them migrate here?
What are you afraid of?
Terrorists, murderers, diseases, thieves, cartels, rapists.
As a business owner, I’m totally here for creating a permanent underclass of workers that I can pay under the table for below minimum wage.
/s
No offense, but OBL did the bit better.
There is only an underclass of workers working under the table because of the screwed up immigration laws in this country, making it illegal to work without the correct papers, and making it extremely difficult to come here just to work.
It is just like the War on Drugs - when the state criminalizes consensual nonviolent activity that harms no one, free people find a way around those unjust laws and do it anyway. In this case, it is the employment agreement between a willing employer and willing employee that the government seeks to criminalize if the employee doesn't have the correct papers. So you could either have the government crack down harder and take away more and more liberty trying to find every last person working under the table and deport the person and punish the employer, or you could learn the lessons from the failed drug war and conclude that it is a fool's errand and let free people engage in nonviolent, consensual economic activity that harms no one. Which one do you choose?
@Pear: none taken. OBL was a master of this.
@jeff: I seem to remember a house plant offering a solution that involved work permits and such and Democrats / Open Borders zealots marched in the streets with Mexican flags and chanting about La Raza. Just saying.
So how about this: we have an immigration system that specifically looks for the terrorists, murderers, etc., and stops them from entering, instead of what we have now, an immigration system that tries to stop EVERYONE who doesn't have the right papers even if they aren't terrorists or murderers. Seems to me, it would make the border guards' jobs easier if they could focus just on finding the 'bad hombres' instead of trying to stop everyone. What do you say?
"Maybe we shouldn’t have TOP MEN dictating how many people crossing the border is “acceptable” or not."
Which is why people are ignoring you and the Koch organization's idiotic belief that INFINITE is an acceptable number.
Yeah we already knew you were an authoritarian on this matter. Not surprising really.
50 million ChiComs showing up at the border.
I think if the Chinese government were to send an invading army of 50 million soldiers, our government would have a bit of an advance notice of that happening.
Send them to the border and our current government would not give a damn.
I mean, China gave the Biden family a lot of money, so they own decrepit Joe.
It isn’t ‘fear’ you fat faggot. The federal government has a constitutional obligation to protect the sovereignty of our borders.
You’re such a lying shitweasel.
Then change the immigration system legally. Simply ignoring the law is wrong.
Then change the immigration system legally.
That is a good idea. So why does your team always stand in the way of this?
Because their base doesn't want increased and unvetted immigration. Of course if you don't have the votes to change the immigration laws that doesn't mean you can violate or ignore the laws currently on the books.
"Their base" doesn't get to legitimate vote on matters of fundamental liberty. The Team Blue base wants to vote to take away my right to own guns and my right to say "hate speech" (according to how they define the term). They can vote all they want, none of their votes should be sufficient justification to take away our fundamental liberties to do those things.
Either get the votes to change the immigration laws or enforce the laws on the books. If you don't have the votes tough luck.
“That is a good idea. So why does your team always stand in the way of this?”
That’s our collectivist. (Cue laugh track)
Because your team just ignores the law.
Should we revamp the tax system by having a Republican President decide to not prosecute ANY tax violations whatsoever until Congress decides to revamp the tax system 100% and repeal the income tax amendment?
That is a good idea. So why does your team always stand in the way of this?
Maybe they expect your team to ignore enforcing any new immigration laws the same way they've ignored enforcing current ones?
Where do you all get this idea that the law is being ignored? From Fox News? The Border Patrol is still apprehending people and deporting them.
The law says that people who apply for asylum are entitled to due process. Seems to me that is what is making Team Red most upset - that the applicants just aren't deported immediately. THAT would be violating the law if that were to happen.
Trump's "Remain In Mexico" policy violated the standards of the refugee treaty - it was refoulment of refugees. But you all cheered that on. Also didn't Trump declare a fake national emergency so as to justify diverting military spending on border wall construction? That was an abuse of the national emergency law.
Seems to me, it's the anti-immigration crowd which is more interested in breaking the law in order to achieve their desired outcome.
Where do you all get this idea that the law is being ignored?
Google the term 'sanctuary cities'.
I’m pretty sure invoking Fox News whenever you don’t like someone’s opinion is some kind of logical fallacy at this point.
Because Americans, unlike you, want to preserve the sovereignty of our borders, and are not global Marxists.
You and your fellow travelers are always free to GTFO if you don’t like it.
Because every time this has been done in the past your team has prevented closing the border. At a certain point it becomes like Lucy and Charlie Brown. Continuing to believe the lies from you and yours is idiocy.
On a personal note, I would happily let 10 Mexicans into the country to be rid of you. Before you ask, they can bring their families.
The Biden administration could easily fix this right now by enforcing current laws and by not allowing bogus asylum claims. The Democrats are doing this intentionally. Funny how Trump managed to get this under control without changing the law.
enforcing current laws
The law requires the government to afford due process to those claiming asylum. So it is enforcing current laws.
by not allowing bogus asylum claims
That is the due process of adjudicating asylum claims. Things could go faster if your team would support devoting more resources to adjudicating the overwhelming number of claims efficiently and expediently. What do you say?
Unless all of those people are Mexican, it should be pretty easy to determine if their asylum claim is bullshit (hint: the treaty we’re a party to requires they apply in the first safe country). Am I wrong on this?
Yes you are wrong. Define "safe". The requirement is not *only* about whether a government is oppressing the applicant. As a matter of law, designation of a country as a "safe country" can only happen via a mutual agreement between the two nations' governments. And the US only has one safe third country agreement - with Canada. That's it. So as a matter of law, Mexico is not a "safe third country".
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1158&num=0&edition=prelim
See section 1158(a)(2)(A) of this link.
The conceptual idea of how a nation becomes "safe" is spelled out again by that law: a country is "safe" if the person's
* "life or freedom would not be threatened on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion"
and
* "would have access to a full and fair procedure for determining a claim to asylum or equivalent temporary protection"
Does Mexico qualify even on a conceptual level? I don't know, it depends on the circumstances of the individual. If that individual, for instance, is a member of a minority group that suffers great discrimination in Mexico, then that person might not be "safe" according to the standards of the law, even if that person would not be directly oppressed by the Mexican government.
So the idea of whether a nation is "safe" is more complex than the Trumpbots would have you believe.
You and the other Dems are constantly bemoaning how unsafe it is to be black (or other racial minority) in America. By that logic, they shouldn't claim asylum here either, then.
"You’re right! They’re not! So many migrants are abusing the asylum system because the legal immigration system is such a cruel joke. If the legal immigration system permitted migrants to come here in an orderly and timely fashion without having to resort to bogus claims of asylum, then there wouldn’t be this strain on the asylum system."
So...shut down the legal immigration system ENTIRELY for several years until we toss out those who abused it and then, when ALL are tossed, we can discuss possible changes.
But not until every last one is gone.
So…shut down the legal immigration system ENTIRELY for several years
That will work about as well as trying to shut down the marijuana market for several years.
Lol. Chemjeff pathetic defeatist. ^
Chemjeff’s house party…
https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/149/034/071/playable/b8444998db28caae.mp4
Oh hey, guess what. A nation is not the same as a personal residence.
Your team just loves to make these stupid terrible analogies.
You are the known master of terrible analogy.
That bears repeating.
Hahaha, it’s the gift that keeps on giving.
It's rather grizzly.
Oso you think.
Stop, I can’t bear any more puns.
"Your team just loves to make these stupid terrible analogies."
...like how a mostly peaceful riot is REALLY an attempt to overthrow the government?
I sympathize with them, but if the USA's immigration policies are so burdensome, why not migrate to some other country?
just what "work" are they going to do?Better opportunities?I gather most of them have the equivalent of an 8th grade education,if that.
They don't speak the language.They bring their third world mentality and ways with them.Am I racist? Yes,so what. My parents were immigrants and it didn't take them 30 years to get here.Oh wait,they
had marketable skills,some money saved and had to prove they didn't have tuberculosis and other infectious diseases.Changing countries won't make it any better for those invaders
So? They are in no way entitled to come here. No foreigner is, except as dictated by a ratified internet rational treaty. Your global Marxist sentiments mean nothing.
"Penniless Guatemalans are not an invading army."
Also are not justifiable as refugees (should be tossed out ASAP for falsifying claims of refugee status) and provide no benefit to us as a country. Why is it vital that we import poverty?
should be tossed out ASAP for falsifying claims of refugee status
That would be a violation of their due process rights while their asylum application is pending. So it's you who wants to ignore immigration laws in order to achieve YOUR desired outcome.
If they are violating the refugee application, process is over.
And who decides that? You? Some border guard flunky? That is part of the due process.
Again it is more and more apparent, it is YOU who wants to violate the law - ignore due process and kick them out regardless of any asylum claim.
Feel free to name anything that where you lying on the application does not disqualify the application.
“Some border guard flunky?”
That’s twice. Just dripping with contempt. You just can’t stand that there are rules at all.
https://conceptdraw.com/a297c3/preview
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure there’s a country between Guatemala and the US that is considered a safe country as part of that asylum treaty. That’s probably why damikesc is making his assertion.
"What brings chaos is a lack of legal immigration pathways." You know what else brings chaos? Having some doddering old fool swear to uphold the Constitution and the duly created laws thereof. When there is legal immigration, and illegal immigration, you are obligated to observe and enforce the difference. Otherwise you get the invasion. It's not rocket science to see Abbot's point, Texas IS literally being invaded, and the Feds are complicit in the invasion. What is a border? Does it signify the point at which different country's rules apply? If so, then crossing it in a manner not approved by that country puts you in a potentially new legal position. As the crosser, that's your responsibility. If you enter illegally, we have every right to toss your ass back over the fence with a leaflet explaining how to cross legally. It's cliche, but do your doors lock? why? Why is this issue difficult to comprehend. Governor Abbot has every reason to tell the Feds to fuck off. He has tried to get their assistance to protect the border, and they have continued to fail to do so. His job is to protect the citizens of Texas. Hell, I'd support him if he quit collecting and remitting Federal tax revenue until the Feds did their fucking job and protected the border. And yeah, I understand that's not the "true" libertarian viewpoint. I'm not trying to join a club, just trying to understand why this is hard to grasp.
Nestly 1.5M a year figure out how to go through legal pathways.
Just nonsensical sophistry to defend bad policy.
The 1972 LP platform did not urge foreigners to enter uninspected AFAIK.
Yeah, he believes in the “twisted logic “ that the president should uphold the law.
Twist and Manipulate. "No State shall, without the Consent of Congress" ... "engage in War, unless actually invaded"
If you want to say invasion is being misrepresented you also have to say Texas engaging in a War is misrepresented.
None the less. The other factor there is "Consent of Congress". Since Congress passed immigration Law there is far more Consent of Congress for Texas than there is of the Biden Administrations "Open the Border" Executive dictates.
No no, borders are imaginary and you’re a xenophobic bigot to think the government has a duty to enforce it.
Unless you’re Ukraine.
Borders are not imaginary. They define the territorial limits of a government's sovereignty. A *just* government uses its power to protect liberty, not to create arbitrary limitations on people's liberty.
Well, Jeffy, if they're not imaginary, then said government reserves the right not to just let anyone who wants in, in. Otherwise, your other comments say otherwise.
A just government serves it's citizens not foreign nationals and in the USA those citizens over the years elected representatives that have passed laws limiting immigration into the USA. If you want more immigration elect representatives who will change the immigration laws in a way you prefer. Simply allowing the immigration laws to be broken because you are unable to change them to what you prefer is not just. It is exactly the opposite of just in fact.
A just government serves the cause of liberty.
A just government serves it's citizens first and foremost. Again I point out that the citizens of the USA elected representatives who passed laws limiting immigration. There is a process to change those laws but until those laws are changed they are still the laws that must be followed. Either get the votes to elect the representatives to change the laws or follow those laws. Ignoring the laws passed by the citizens representatives is an injustice towards the citizens.
A just government serves it’s citizens first and foremost.
If the citizens were to say "hey, let's enslave the non-citizens", a just government would refuse to accede to the citizens' demand. Right?
So any just government should have in mind the priorities of citizens, yes, but the HIGHER goal is to protect the liberty of ALL people. Your citizenship papers are not a magic wand that entitle you to violate the rights of people you don't like.
Unless you want to claim that immigrants have no negative impacts on the liberties of citizens, then a just government has every moral right to keep immigrants out.
What are the negative impacts?
I bet that for every negative impact that you can find, I can show that this impact is not due to their immigrant status, and a non-immigrant under the same circumstances would have the same impact.
If that is the case, then the solution is not to kick the immigrants out, because their immigrant status is not the cause of their negative impacts, but to address the real source of the negative impacts.
Negative impacts --- People who think they can just break-in to places despite the law telling them they can't.
You are cuddling the criminal of mind. Why even go into all the details about welfare, drugs, crime-rates, etc, etc, etc... These are the same people who create a nation so horrible they'll do anything to escape their own consequences ... yet ironically continue to vote here for the same BS that destroyed the nation they're trying to escape at a 70% margin.
You've heard all these cases presented over and over again to you yet you keep playing ignorant to them. You're not trying to make a case. You're trying to dismiss by blatant ignorance all the "negative impacts". Plug your ears and hum nanananananaa to everything until you get your way.
And to add a topping on top ... You know what the biggest difference between the US Constitution and the Mexico Constitution is? The Mexico Constitution puts the government in charge of everyone's welfare (i.e. 'living').
You want to know why the US patriotic right considers them 'invaders'? Half of that comes from the act of 'invading' (illegally) and the other half comes from their statistically obvious support to throw the USA away for the same government ideology Mexico has (proven by immigrant voting statistics) as well as welfare recipient records. Ya know; like exactly what you lobby for most of the time ... cuddling the criminal of heart. USA patriots have ZERO desire to be just like Mexico and consider those who want that as part of their nations definition 'invaders' of the USA nation.
You want more immigration and support from the right for it? Try again once at least 1/2 50% are voting for a government that isn't treasonous-ly trying to crush the US Constitution (Liberty and Justice). Try again once they find it ethical enough to actually get permission; instead of breaking our national laws.
You won't make that happen though because the massive majority of immigrants from the south are after one thing only. The same thing the entire left and 'socialist' mentality is after. To find greener pastures someone else has grown to graze on.
They find no desire to grow their own pasture (fix their own nation) to graze on. They just want to break-in, take and graze someone elses.
And frankly at the rate the USA is going [Na]tional So[zi]alist with a majority help from immigrants the future just might show US citizens trying desperately to break into Mexico to escape the same BS the immigrants have helped create here. And Mexico would be blatantly stupid to allow just everyone to cross into it's nation as the grazing cattle will continue to conquer and consume everything in there path. That's what the TAKERS, GRAZERS and [OUR] STUFF mentality is all about .... to conquer and consume then move on.
The very last thing their type wants is to be responsible for anything they want. To actually *EARN* before consuming. To build/create. In-Fact they're blatantly envious of anyone who does build/create anything of value because their never wanting to *EARN* anything image in the mirror can't entirely be ignored by themselves.
You are cuddling the criminal of mind.
You want to talk about mens rea?
https://www.kff.org/report-section/understanding-the-u-s-immigrant-experience-the-2023-kff-la-times-survey-of-immigrants-findings/
Most don't come here with criminal intent. Most come here with a desire for a better life for themselves and their families. It is just your tribe which views this desire for a better life as equivalent to "breaking and entering".
These are the same people who create a nation so horrible they’ll do anything to escape their own consequences
This type of argument is not just wrong it is horribly offensive. Which individual migrant is directly responsible for what their former government did? It is the government which mismanages these countries. Tell us, are *YOU*, personally, responsible for Biden's messes? Or Trump's, for that matter? Should *YOU*, personally, be denied permission to emigrate anywhere because "you first have to fix your country's messes"?
Individuals are not personally responsible for what their government does. Individuals are not personally responsible for what 'society' does. Individuals are only directly responsible for what they themselves do.
You want to know why the US patriotic right
Fuck you. You do not have a monopoly on patriotism.
considers them ‘invaders’? Half of that comes from the act of ‘invading’ (illegally) and the other half comes from their statistically obvious support to throw the USA away for the same government ideology Mexico has (proven by immigrant voting statistics)
Huh. You mean, when one party consistently demonizes and trashes a group of people, that group of people doesn’t line up to vote in overwhelming numbers for that party? Really? How odd!
Maybe if your team would stop calling them vermin and shithole people, they might be inclined to vote for your team.
as well as welfare recipient records.
Immigrants and native-born citizens, when compared adjusted for income, family size and education level – meaning, an actual apples-to-apples comparison – use welfare at roughly the same rate. And most of the time the ‘welfare’ that is attributed to the migrants constitutes the cost of public education for their kids – which is MANDATED BY LAW for their kids. So immigrant families are forced to send their kids to school, and then they are demonized for “mooching on welfare” for the cost of that school the kids are forced to attend. How convenient.
Oh and another big contributor to the cost of welfare for migrants is Medicaid. Guess what, this is because of EMTALA. Hospitals are required to treat everyone regardless of ability to pay. And Medicaid is the fund that pays the hospitals for this uncompensated care.
1) Did you seriously think criminals wanted a worse life for themselves? You trying to justify 'want' as the justification for breaking-in just proves my point of cuddling the criminal.
2) You pretending a nations individuals at large isn't responsible for the nations government is yet another re-enforcement of exactly what I pointed out about taking responsibility instead of grazing others pastures.
3) Here you insist that the Law is already Socialist so breaking-in to take advantage of that is somehow self-purifying even if immigration is taking the largest swath of that while voting by a margin of 3/4 FOR IT once voting is granted is somehow 'evil' partisan opinion.
The 'evil' is exactly the criminal of hearth using Gov-Guns to STEAL which one party supports in complete contrast to the other and which immigrants champion. It's exactly why their own nation sucks so bad.
Which leads right into the master-point. Most (3/4) aren't here to *EARN* a better life for themselves. They are here to *TAKE* a better life for themselves. And once again; It's exactly why their own nation sucks.
Your error is in believing an honest *EARNER* "Individual" migrating from the evil of his/her nations government isn't going to want strict border security.
It's a contradiction. Why the F would an honest *EARNER* "Individual" want to have his/her old nations mistakes imported????
They don't. They vote Republican not because they delude themselves into tribalism 'hate' victim-hood but because they see the errors of their escaped nations ways/mentalities being EXACTLY that. I personally know many honorable immigrants who came here LEGALLY because they're honorable and are great immigrants. You my friend are not one of them.
Poverty brings with it a lot of “negative impacts”, nimrod.
I guess we could “address” that by giving them money.
"A just government serves the cause of liberty."
Who defines liberty?
I happen to think border state citizens should have ER access if needed.
Illegals have eliminated that heavily.
Well in our post-modern post-truth world, "liberty" is defined as "whatever the majority of Real Murican Republican voters declare it to be". Right?
Sure, bucko
Do you think invading other nations is a "liberty"?
Seems the US Constitution didn't agree with you on that one.
Though Russia just might currently.
Hey, I totally agree that a just government protects the liberty of its citizens. I just think the disconnect between open borders and everyone else is you your idea of liberty means letting everyone from everywhere come here and them, not so much.
I also think it’s funny that people get so up in arms that Americans could possibly consider 6million illegal crossings (not counting those who slipped through undetected) an invasion and turn around and say that the Ukraine needs our help to secure their border.
(And before you say it, an invasion does not require military OR arms, by definition. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/invasion)
Hey, I totally agree that a just government protects the liberty of its citizens.
It goes even further - it protects the liberty of ALL PEOPLE.
A government which, for example, protected the liberty of citizens only, but enslaved non-citizens, would not be just.
your idea of liberty means letting everyone from everywhere come here
If they are not known criminals, and if they are not carrying some horrible disease, why not? What is your SPECIFIC OBJECTION to letting anyone come here who wishes to do so?
That is not the same as granting everyone citizenship. That is not the same as giving everyone welfare or any other benefits. It means free migration and protection of freedom of association.
So no welfare of any kind for these illegal aliens? I could support that. When they get hungry enough they would go home.
As I said earlier. Asylum applicants, while they are waiting for a work permit (which takes 150 days), are eligible for some state-level public benefits. Laws like EMTALA apply to them too. The federal government does provide resettlement assistance. It doesn't stop private organizations from helping these individuals. Is that acceptable to you or do you want to force them to stop providing assistance to migrants too?
So they have the liberty to cross our borders and the right to demand we feed them? Doesn't that impact our liberty to keep our own stuff?
So they have the liberty to cross our borders
yes
and the right to demand we feed them?
no - well, they can demand, but there is no right to be fed.
So they starve?
No, well I hope not. There is just no right to be fed.
Invading another's nation is not a Liberty. That's just the beginning. The USA government has no instruction to preserve Liberty for ALL PEOPLE so you're just making up sh*t on top of that.
"It goes even further – it protects the liberty of ALL PEOPLE."
"Chemjeff decides that George W. Bush was actually correct in his foreign policy" was not an outcome I expected.
Chemjeff --- coming out for the USA fixing all of the worlds problems. Well, the world BESIDES the USA.
The problem with Bush's foreign policy was not his lofty rhetoric about trying to free people who are being oppressed, but trying to extend US sovereignty to other nations.
A just government should protect the liberty of all people. A just government should also not exceed its sovereign authority.
A magical wand and a wishing well or something? /s lol...
You'll go to any length to appease your break-in mentality.
And before you say it, an invasion does not require military OR arms, by definition.
In the Constitutional meaning of the term, it does.
LOL
Feel free to provide the "Constitutional definition" of invasion.
RTFA
You really are a stupid, lying asshole
Again, if borders were a figment of imagination, governments protected their citizens, and libertarians advocated individual liberty, Reason should be publishing way more articles on the US government's efforts to end gun control in Mexico and openly advertising their own support for such. To bring Irish and Delaware corporate taxation to the entirety of the US, EU, and world.
Otherwise, it’s just a Hitlerian political/rhetorical ploy to put yourself or your cohort atop the social class and say which rules you think should apply to which citizens and which rules you think shouldn’t with ambitions of global dominance/governance. Instead of private gun ownership for all the citizens of the world and no corporate taxes anywhere, we just get oblique discussion of Joe’s EV mandate like he came up with the idea himself and totally isn’t getting marching order, like every other world leader enacting the same EV mandates, from the WEF and Davos.
*Just* governments are constituted by people subject to the rule of law. You know, that whole "social contract theory" thing? You've read about it. I can tell.
Would you say that not being able to walk into someone's home and sleep on their couch without permission is an arbitrary limit on liberty?
national borders =/= private property borders
national borders = a nations property borders.
And for foreigners (those with no claim to - a nation) to claim a right contrary to the nation to tread within those borders is breaking and entering. JUST as breaking into someone's house against their will is breaking and entering.
There is no such thing as "breaking and entering" on a public road. YOU DO NOT OWN PUBLIC LAND. The government owns public land. Stop trying to apply private property rules to public land. It is a stupid argument.
“The government owns public land” … And you are breaking and entering when the government says no. Hello!!! Who’s being stupid?
The federal government has a legal obligation to keep illegals out.
Case closed.
But if you are standing in the wrong place on that public land, the government has the right to shoot you.
/jeff
We can always count on Fiona, the open borders, unlimited cheap labor Koch-slut.
Somehow a more sophist version of Shikha.
I think it's just the beat / topic she's been assigned.
Whatever happened to Shitty Shikha? I really want to see her reaction when Trump is again elected president. Maybe this time all the people like her will commit suicide.
Whatever happened to Shitty Shikha?
Cancelled by the cancel culture at Reason, according to her. Last I knew, she was operating her own Substack that neither confirmed nor denied whether Reason was neither holding back her batshit craziness nor promoting it.
I can really see her being involuntarily committed to a mental institution.
Idiot makes idiotic statements. It's another day in paradise.
Calling the invaders (barbarians) undocumented immigrants is like calling a window washer a Transparent Wall Technician.
It's widely reported that the Mexican drug cartels are deeply involved in the trafficing of migrants. Are they a hostile armed political entity? I think you could make that case. And as Fiona admits the vast majority are economic immigrants who do not qualify for assylum. By allowing in millions of people who do not have a legitimate right to be here the Biden regime has abdicated it's responsibility to protect the states from foreign invaders as a practical matter. Whether this is a political or constitutional matter may not matter much when half of the states support Texas on the question. This is civil war shit. Get your brain around that Fiona.
Reason, a day late and then they send Fiona to do the article, making them more than a dollar short.
(Stern Dad voice) I’m not angry, just disappointed.*
*Im not disappointed as this is exactly what I expected when Liz didn’t even mention it in the morning links.
Pretty sure if Madison knew that armed drug cartels were routinely storming our borders with impunity and that 10's of thousands of Americans were being killed by the "weapon" of fentanyl, (not to mention the islamic terrorists and Chinese agents sneaking in alongside), he'd be willing to grant that this qualifies as an invading army...
I would bet that any illegal immigration during Madison's time was miniscule compared to the total population even back then. Especially since at the time the only nation that one could walk across the border to cross into the USA at the time was Canada. Most illegal immigration then would have required a week's long voyage aboard a ship and would have a tough time getting past port security.
A sea voyage from Europe took upwards of a month back in his time.
I phrased it poorly. I meant to imply multiple weeks.
I kind of figured.
Pretty sure if Madison knew...
this is the same rationalization that Team Blue uses for things like guns - "if the Founding Fathers only knew about how destructive AR15's were, they would have granted an exception to what they wrote and aligned with my political preferences".
Except the Founding Fathers did know how destructive guns could be and failed to grant an exception.
Illegal immigration wasn't really a thing in Madison's time and back then anyone who was considered undesirable was turned away and none received any government benefits.
anyone who was considered undesirable was turned away
No, there was no such thing as "illegal immigration" in the 18th century.
Yeah, well there is now.
Madison also took both sides of the argument at different times in his life.
As do I.
I don't call millions of peaceful migrants crossing the border illegally "an invasion," I would call it a failure to defend the border to enforce the legally and politically set immigration limits.
As for terrorists and spies, it's much easier for them to enter the mostly undefended northern border, or through the ports on cargo ships.
When in a short period of time there are more illegal aliens crossing the border than all but the largest US city I would say it is fair to consider it an invasion.
When in a short period of time there are more illegal aliens crossing the border than the population of 30 different US states I would say it is fair to consider it an invasion.
When in a short period of time there are more illegal aliens crossing the border than the total active duty military in the USA by a large margin( nearly three times as many illegal aliens crossing the border as active duty military in the USA) I would consider it fair to call it an invasion.
Clearly, you don't live here and have to watch this absolute flood of people overrun every Civic and civil institution we have. It is an invasion, even if it's not necessarily a militarized one.
This is my biggest problem with most of the dumb open borders forever zealots. Most of them I've nowhere near the border. As soon as their areas saw less than 1% of 1 year, they freaked out. It was always a let the border states deal with the negative externalities.
"let them live near the border, then they will turn into a xenophobic jerk just like me"
Inverse-Sinclair: It is easy for a man to believe in something as long as it costs him nothing.
No matter where one lives in this country, the current immigration laws cost everyone. They cost everyone in terms of taxation to pay for it, they cost everyone in terms of liberty when they travel or apply for a job or, if one has the wrong complexion, engage in many daily activities.
Funny how the people who demand "secure the border!" never address the cost *in terms of liberty* that their demands would result in.
Not even close to the amount of Liberty they've already lost to the "breaking and entering" and "grazing your grass" has cost them. My gosh this is just basic Justice. You're preaching that leaving the front door open to your house and having it ransacked is more liberty than maintaining a deterrent (locked door) or legal consequences.
How, specifically, are you harmed by any individual migrant crossing the border onto public land?
If you say "they vote for socialism!" - that is not true, they don't vote.
If you say "they take welfare!" - that is a consequence of the welfare laws, not the migration itself.
If you say "they steal my job!" - no one is entitled to have any job, they cannot steal something that wasn't truly yours to begin with.
"If you say “they vote for socialism!” – that is not true, they don’t vote."
That you believe that is borderline adorable. More and more blue states are allowing illegals to vote.
^THAT + once granted voting 3/4 do vote for socialism.
The "border security" system is broken right there.
Okay then - if you really genuinely think that all of these migrants are no different than an invading army, then the proper response for any sovereign government to an invading army is not to put up barbed wire, but to shoot them and repel the invasion.
So, show of hands, how many here are in favor of either the US government or the state national guard shooting migrants who cross the border illegally? Even if the migrants are unarmed?
>>>then the proper response
again with the opinions ...
Barbed wire is fine for stopping migrants, but now we're being told that that's such an inhumane response, it tears at the very metaphysical fabric of humanity.
Funniest part is there is an actual official entry port 200 yards away from Eagle Pass but the illegal immigrants still cross elsewhere. Jeff relies on ignorance of the subject.
Or more likely, just lies. Groomer Jeffy is intrinsically dishonest.
Barbed wire is fine for stopping migrants
Are they migrants or are they invaders?
6 or 1/2 a dozen
False binary choice offered by dishonest sea lion.
Under certain circumstances, you or the government is justified in shooting an unarmed person. You give them proper warning, proper notice, and if they do not desist or comply, it might be the correct thing to do.
You would only need to shoot a few of them. The rest aren't stupid.
I believe your political collective uses this sort of reasoning often in defense of the shooting of Ashli Babbitt, do they not? With much less justification.
Chemjeff’s query is what in debating concepts is a “dud” question.
The federal government has decided to not enforce border policy. As a result, the democratically elected state governments that exist along that border– the governments and people suffering the largest and most direct consequences of an unenforced border policy are taking things into their own hands. The federal government is now trying (and in some cases succeeded) in telling those state governments to end their interventions. So the whole questions of “why not shoot them” is a non-sequitur.
Enforce the border policy in the normal, procedural manner. That includes but is not limited to not promising migrants free healthcare, housing. In addition, push all the safe third countries they’re passing through to start acting like safe third countries.
This is like what’s going on at the street level. The cities stop enforcing crime. When people get fed up, they start taking things into their own hands. The state immediately steps in and sanctions the people taking things into their own hands, while continuing to not enforce crime. So the question is not "should we just choke out every lawbreaker until he suffocates?". The question is, why aren't we enforcing crime?
The border states are being squeezed at both ends, and it’s by design.
The federal government has decided to not enforce border policy.
That is a lie. The federal government is enforcing border policy - just not in the inhumane manner that you would prefer. This statement alone only proves what I have been saying, that Republicans in general feel entitled to rule. If things don't go according to how THEY want, it is equivalent to not doing anything at all, or worse, doing things contrary to "America".
Doing ANYTHING that is not what Republicans would want, is the same as undermining America itself. That is the current Republican conceit. It is wrong and shameful.
Enforce the border policy in the normal, procedural manner. That includes but is not limited to not promising migrants free healthcare, housing.
That would be a violation of not just treaties but our own laws. IF a migrant claims asylum, that migrant is entitled to certain benefits while that claim is being adjudicated. Now you and I both agree that most of these asylum claims are bullshit. The REASON why so many migrants are making bullshit asylum claims is because there is no feasible legal path for migration for them.
So if you want to cut down on the benefits that all of these asylum applicants are being granted, then give them a legal path for migrating here so they don't have to make a bogus asylum claim.
If instead migrants were able to obtain a work permit, then they would not be eligible to claim asylum, they wouldn't get the benefits that asylum applicants are entitled to get, and they would be able to work here to pursue what is the goal of most of the migrants, which is to obtain a better life for them and their families.
So if you genuinely are so outraged at the spending on migrants, then give them a legal way to be here that does not entitle them to the benefits of asylum applicants. It is that simple.
Or, you can try to build bigger walls and hire more guards to keep them out. You will still be paying the same (or more) amount of tax money in the end - the money will either go to the asylum applicants, or it will go to the border guards. You will still be just as poor, and your liberty will be just as violated, but you will be happy because your money won't be going to those shiftless lazy brown people.
“The federal government is enforcing border policy – just not in the inhumane manner that you would prefer. ”
Sad that you call it “humane” to dump countless non-citizen welfare recipients on the backs of taxpaying citizens as if it’s a solution.
Get to work pulling the plow you tax donkeys! It’s just the government being humane!
"they wouldn’t get the benefits that asylum applicants are entitled to get..."
Spoken like someone who qualifies for EIC every year.
Sad that you call it “humane” to dump countless non-citizen welfare recipients on the backs of taxpaying citizens as if it’s a solution.
*MY* preferred solution is to give all of them work permits so that they are able to provide for themselves. What do you think? Agree or disagree?
But if that is not an option, I would prefer enforcing current law and affording them the due process they are entitled to as they apply for asylum, instead of shooting them at the border. What do you think?
“they wouldn’t get the benefits that asylum applicants are entitled to get…”
Spoken like someone who qualifies for EIC every year.
Oh look, someone who sneers at poor people. Do you have a monocle factory?
Do you want to enforce the law, or not? The law says that asylum applicants are entitled to a certain process and certain benefits while they pursue their claim. Or would you prefer that Biden break the law?
Jeff fully supports capital murder for trespass. I have the link if interested.
https://reason.com/2021/02/09/the-not-so-peaceful-transfer-of-power/?comments=true#comment-8750591
lmao.. ChemJeff, "Ashli Babbett was trespassing, and the officers were totally justified to shoot trespassers."
Nicely done.
Knock, knock.
Who's there?
Not Ashlii Babbitt. Not anymore.
Carry on, clingers.
F-
Sad.
Oh, fuck off already, Arthur Loser Kirkland.
I can’t wait until you’re executed for being a Marxist traitor. Or more likely brutally murdered by a rioting mob of your own kind.
It’s what you deserve.
And...Kirkland goes full retard.
Kirkland IS full retard.
Knock, knock.
Who’s there?
Not Joseph Rosenbaum or Anthony Huber. Not anymore.
Carry on, hicklib.
This is a lie. As I have repeatedly stated.
Capital punishment as determined by a court of law is different than using lethal force in self-defense. Jesse knows this but loves to lie about the people he hates.
Self-defense from UN-armed Ashley Babbett? RU kidding me?
What massive danger do you think she has? Do you think she's Storm from the X-Men movie?
She and the whole mob behind her managed to ransack the Capitol. They were using flagpoles as weapons. They don't need guns to be armed and dangerous, ask any MMA fighter.
That whole what. 7-people standing around talking in the hall? Obviously you have not seen the footage or your painting faulty narratives.
He probably has. Pedo Jeffy is an inveterate liar.
Was she carrying or waving a flagpole around?
You would only need to shoot a few of them. The rest aren’t stupid.
this is so disgusting, nothing more need be said
This is just downright evil. No it is not acceptable to shoot unarmed migrants "as a message".
But it is acceptable to shoot an unarmed Ashli Babbett?
Well, it is worse to "trespass" in a building you directly pay for than to enter a country illegally and steal their resources.
Using lethal force in self-defense against a violent intruder? As a general rule it is justified, yes.
So if ANYONE shows up to your house using violence against you or your property, migrant or citizen or anyone else, you would generally be justified in using lethal force to defend yourself and your property and family.
Your confusion seems to lie in who's nation it is.
The argument was already won with the Revolutionary War.
So as I've told you before. If immigrants want to lay claim here against the current tenants will (immigration laws) ... they better bring something more than just sneaky shoes to their break-in.
What precisely was Ashli Babbit doing that was so violent that it necessitated the use of lethal force? Hmmmm?
Haven't you just spent the whole thread repeating that public property is not the same as private property? Why are you now discussing the Capitol with an analogy to private property?
Shooting a few as examples is how all laws work, good or bad. Lysander Spooner's "Go to A, B,..." translation of instructions for contract tax collectors is taken from the Civil War income tax law Congress passed the day it forbad bartenders in DC to serve intoxicants to soldiers black or white. See: https://libertariantranslator.wordpress.com/2021/03/30/lysander-spooners-oath/
I believe your political collective uses this sort of reasoning often in defense of the shooting of Ashli Babbitt, do they not? With much less justification.
Give me the name of even one person who justified the shooting of Ashli Babbitt *as a deterrent* and as a “message” to all of the other rioters, as you now justify shooting unarmed migrants as a “message” to the rest because “the rest aren’t stupid”. Go ahead. Name just one.
You.
Bullshit. That is a lie. I never even attempted to justify shooting Ashli Babbitt to "send a message". If you disagree I challenge you to produce even one shred of evidence to the contrary.
I think instead you have projected your worst motivations onto the people you hate instead of listening to what they actually say.
It's already been posted.
I didn't say anything about sending messages, that's you.
What, my statement about using lethal force against trespassers from a libertarian perspective? That is not about "sending a message", that is because trespassing is a violation of the NAP.
You are the only one here who is using the despicable and gross justification of "sending a message" in support of your desire to shoot unarmed migrants, even if they are not violating the NAP.
You want the state to use lethal force against unarmed migrants for no other reason than as an exercise in raw state power. I cannot think of a more unlibertarian perspective. Frankly it is downright fascist.
Joe Biden.
Really? How so?
Do you really think the 884 prosecutions of J6 weren't about sending a message?
Oh yes it most certainly was. Many of them were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But as far as I can tell, none of them were punished with extra-judicial lethal force in order to "send a message".
Yeah, they have, you lying piece of shit.
They didn't resist arrest. The black counterfeiter guy MAGATs say died of reefer madness by pure coindicence while former offissa Chauvin was innocently kneeling on his throat, remember? He resisted arrest. MAGATs incited Ashley to break and enter and invade a paranoid space known to be guarded by men with guns. She died of ignorant gullibility compounded with gunshot wound. The vid looked like warnings were shouted.
Hey, ChemJeff. Where are you calling out senile Hank's DEHUMANIZING language, referring to people as "MAGATS?"
"Under certain circumstances, you or the government is justified in shooting an unarmed person. You give them proper warning, proper notice, and if they do not desist or comply, it might be the correct thing to do."
ONLY if they are trespassing in the Capitol (a building they pay for, mind you). For ANY other reason, it is wrong to shoot unarmed people.
Blah blah blah, another bad faith moron deliberately misrepresenting the events of Jan. 6 in order to justify shooting unarmed migrants.
blah, blah, blah. Another moron deliberately ignoring the outcome of his preference.
Apparently you've never heard of prisoners of war have you?
*raises hand*
Someone's never heard of EoF.
"Okay then – if you really genuinely think that all of these migrants are no different than an invading army, then the proper response for any sovereign government to an invading army is not to put up barbed wire, but to shoot them and repel the invasion."
Your terms are acceptable.
Shooting them would be a last resort. Tase them, pack them in containers and ship them back. If they try to run, then shoot em.
"Invasion is an operation of war," declared Madison. "To protect against invasion is an exercise of the power of war. A power therefore not incident to war, cannot be incident to a particular modification of war. And as the removal of alien friends has appeared to be no incident to a general state of war, it cannot be incident to a partial state, or a particular modification of war."
I have a serious question-- putting aside the particulars of Greg Abbott's particular rhetoric or policies...
If you have no functioning border control... or a border policy that is summarily ignored by the national government, how can you tell the difference between a mass surge in migration and an invasion.
To be clear, I don't believe this is an invasion either. I don't believe it requires a military response, and I think the rhetoric on the far right is problematic in this regard.
But, again, if you were a foreign power that was considered an adversary of a country, and you KNEW that country had no meaningful border controls... why couldn't you perform a kind of mass-infiltration operation meant to destabilize their economy and political cohesion?
True story, a commenter here once claimed that the only thing that qualifies as a military invasion is if the migrants are coming over the border in some kind of mechanical contraption. Seriously.
If you use the definition of mechanical as being designed using mechanical engineering principles - shoes could be considered a mechanical contraption.
But, again, if you were a foreign power that was considered an adversary of a country, and you KNEW that country had no meaningful border controls… why couldn’t you perform a kind of mass-infiltration operation meant to destabilize their economy and political cohesion?
Coming from you, this has got to be one of the stupidest arguments against the liberty of free association.
This is the type of argument that people like Glenn Greenwald rail against - invoking a shadowy undefined enemy in order to justify depriving you of your rights. "Oh look, the terrorists could be anywhere. That means the government must wiretap your phones and make you take off your shoes at the airport!" That type of fearmongering is literally what sustains the national security state: the demand from the state that the citizens must live in constant fear of the shadowy enemy, therefore they must hand over their liberty to the state in order to "keep them safe".
And since I know you are a person who worships Glenn Greenwald, it makes this argument coming from you either totally dishonest or batshit insane. I am not sure which.
The claim that the government must enact harsh border control measures because "they might be terrorists" is quite possibly the dumbest argument in favor of your team's position.
"...The claim that the government must enact harsh border control measures..."
Harsh border measures? Heck, our "team" just wants the laws on the books enforced and this problem will solve itself! You're entire screed reads like something written based on a purely theoretical exercise. Risk management is not fear mongering.
The law that you imagine that is on the books, or the actual laws that exist?
Because the actual laws that exist require that asylum applicants be given due process while their claim is being processed. It is not up to some Border Patrol guard to just deport anyone that he/she FEEEELS is making a bogus asylum claim. If some guard were to do that, that would be violating the law.
Do you think those getting busted at the border have been granted permission by asylum application?
"Coming from you, this has got to be one of the stupidest arguments against the liberty of free association."
Pretend that the illegals were bringing in bears in trunks of cars...
Isn't that what the HAMAS ragheads did? They invaded the border and killed a bunch of Israelis, the news said. Now they are shocked, SHOCKED that the apposite reprisal force is unequal, heedless of Marquis de Queensbury rules. The dumber and more mystically altruistic the collectivists, the more often they are surprised by facts of reality.
“…mass-infiltration operation…” helluva way to say “invasion”.
“…meant to destabilize their economy and political cohesion?” Kinda sounds like the cold “war” and precursors to every low intensity conflict in modern history. According to you, both, taken together, seem to meet satisfy the use of the words “invasion” and “imminent threat” in the constitutional language Abbott has cited.
Sure the ChiComs could send 50 million to the border. But they would be better off to send a few thousand specially trained agents. Imagine the havoc they could wreak!
Oh, wait....who's to say they haven't already done that? Or the Iranians? or Russians?
Oh, wait….who’s to say they haven’t already done that? Or the Iranians? or Russians?
They're probably already here! Better surrender the rest of your liberties to the national security state so that they can keep you 'safe'. What do you say?
The very purpose of the "Union of States" is to have national security. Why don't you go find another nation to conquer with your dismantle the nation speeches.
....says the person sucking the cock of the "1/6 was an INSURRECTION and we need to keep people off the ballot...for democracy!"
I agree that illegal aliens entering the country is not the same as an invading army in that illegals are far worse... No invading army could send 6 million. The sheer numbers are staggering.
Just do the math on how much they are costing taxpayers and the strain on social programs let alone the extremely high likelihood of criminals or terrorists now entering into the United States. Yeah... I'd rather it was an army. At least you can identify and oppose it.
mostly peaceful invading army?
Communist China: active duty 2,035,000, reserves 510,000
Russia: 360,000 (no numbers given for reserves)
(Of course, all these numbers are estimates by outside agencies as the nations do not give out accurate figures)
The 1972 libertarian platform called for abolishing those social programs now serving as bait for refugees fleeing Kleptocracy prohibition laws that collapsed their economies. The platform said to abolish those too.
The concertina barbed wire is twisted, but Abbott's logic isn't. Blocking the border to unauthorized access is logical. Asking the Border Patrol to make it easier to cross the border illegally is not logical.
To be sure, some could make the case that the sharp, pointy wire is dangerous to would-be border crossers, in much the same way my neighbors' barbed-wire fences were dangerous to me as a kid if I wanted to cut across their back 40. But it was on me if I got cut trying to take a shortcut.
The author is...(ahem) a 13yr old girl working on a term paper.
Texas Governor Greg Abbot, along with Florida's Ron Desantis, made the smartest initial move by bussing/flying illegals to major Eastern cities. This forced the open border supporters to house/feed/etc. a relatively small portion of the flood of people. The media could no longer ignore the border, and Joe Biden was exposed.
Now Governor Abbot is rubbing the border in Biden's demented face, again, which will pressure him into signing the Ukraine aid package that includes real border security funding. Funny, but Biden can spin this as a good thing - neither the right or the left like the uncontrolled border.
But I think Abbot is more interested in a good fight right now. And this will not make Biden look good
Pedo Jeffy likes the uncontrolled border. He should be forced to live in a border town. Where hopefully he is gang raped to death by some cartel scumbags.
That would be a nice Twilight Zone ironic ending for him.
If the federal Govt won't draft a sane immigration policy, then border states are left to their own to defend themselves. To claim that this should be left to the feds, and then admit that the feds are not doing anything kinda proves you are wrong.
Another rousing meeting of Libertarians for Authoritarian, Bigoted, and Cruel Immigration Policies and Practices, sponsored by the Un-American Association of Right-Wing Bigots and convened at the internet's most prominent gathering space for worthless, faux libertarian, conservative misfits.
That "L" stand for "Loser", right, Kirkland? Like you'll lose when your betters finally overtake your hicklib progtard ass.
Libertarian
No, you’re a Marxist. A stupid one at that.
Shrike is more libertarian than you. (He’s not libertarian either)
Leftard Self-Projection entry #82157348597023.
Shift-blaming Biden's Authoritarian Executive Order to dismantle border security.
Whatever the [WE] leftard mob does it's all those other people's fault! /s
I think you're on the wrong site. We're at "Reason". Nothing about your comment suggests you have the ability.
Good observation.
Slava Trotsky...opps..Zelinsky
Another idiot who has no concept of property rights.
You're free to leave.
Maybe you'd understand the problem better if we started calling them colonizers.
Madison lived at a time when people who were inside the borders of the United States were expected to provide for themselves. Or, at least, if they were staying with friends, family, or a church, they were provided for by private individuals and not the government.
If we abolished minimum wage laws, so that illegals had no bargaining power over people who sought legal employment, and we told illegals they were on their own when it comes to feeding, housing, and taking care of medical needs, I’d be in favor of open borders. But we can’t be a charity open to anyone who just manages to make it here.
It is not just the economic problems from wages the illegal immigrants cause, it's the strain on services like schools, hospitals, housing, trash pickup, etc.
I repeat-if they were denied any government services, including medical care (hospitals), education, and shelter, then open borders would be a reasonable policy.
If their mere arrival on American soil is causing significant economic turmoil, then perhaps "invasion" is not so improper a term. I'm not completely sold on this, but quoting Madison from 200 years ago about drastically different circumstances doesn't make that the final word.
This argument misunderstands the long-established legal and practical definitions of an "invasion." It also misconstrues the nature of unauthorized migration.
Is the term "home invasion" similarly twisted logic? Should we be referring to robbers and burglars as unauthorized houseguests?
the overwhelming majority are coming here for economic or humanitarian reasons, not to commit crimes or sow chaos.
And their very first act upon arrival is... to commit a crime and sow chaos.
Shut up Fiona.
Let me start by saying that I'd support a policy of open borders for economic migrants to come her and improve their situation as long as they have no expectation of welfare or becoming a burden to taxpayers. Any migrants whose arrival in the country and are not documented at an official port of entry (or children born of undocumented migrants) will never be eligible for citizenship or to vote. Period, problem solved.
That said, it is an absurd premise, in our current geopolitical climate, to imply that there are not elements across the globe that see the chaotic situation at the border and the release of these illegal migrants into the country as an opportunity. It's practically a mathematical impossibility that some bad people aren't taking advantage of the situation. Only fools and liars will insist otherwise. Those are not the "alien friends" Madison referred to. A dangerous enemy that is dispersed throughout an innocent population is a dangerous enemy nonetheless. When the author calls people who raise this concern "fearmongers", what she's really doing is conceding the point because she doesn't really have an answer for that but chooses to lean on her own appraisal of the risk over the many experienced folks how have the requisite folks with national security and anti-terrorism experience who have "red teamed" this issue for decades unencumbered by current political constraints pr pressures that have emerged over the last decade. Shame on her for that.
When the 9th Circuit said, "there are no manageable standards to ascertain whether or when an influx of illegal immigrants should be said to constitute an invasion," That is absolutely correct but in no way invalidates Abott's usage of the term so I don't think it supports the article the way the author things it does. Neither does the pull quote from Federalist 43.
The issue here is not how we define "invasion" but what it means to be at "war". Invasion is merely a consequent action of the decision to engage in hostilities. An invasion does not conform to a specific set of characteristics any more than bad guys have to wear black in old westerns. Harrigan would have us all believe that if the only way we can even say "invasion" is with the presence of bad people fighting their way across the border. That's ridiculous. And while Madison may have opined on what constitutes "war", the classical definition of such certainly does not reflect modern applications of conflict by extranational groups. Nor does the author consider one of the most prominent examples of modern conflict in the Cold War, of which a key tenet is low intensity conflict and proxy war.
The bottom line is that the author's argument only works as long as you are extremely risk tolerant. I don't accept that.
A dangerous enemy that is dispersed throughout an innocent population is a dangerous enemy nonetheless.
What is the danger?
Try reading again. For comprehension this time.
If you succeed in this request, you will have done better with chemjeff that anybody else.
Oh right. We have to stop all of this migration because "they might be terrorists". We know this because Fox News insists that there are terrorists there.
Humorously "might be terrorists" is still a long ways away from all the BS the left has sold about the J6 protesters terrorizing the Capitol.
You're just lucky the right is a lot more level-headed than the left or massive terrorists like yourself who weren't even at the border would be prosecuted to years in prison for lobbying for breaking-in.
Here’s you after the table turns, “A J6 protestor was injured trying to break-in (the line) to the Capitol and Trump ordered by Executive fiat that the line be taken-down so the line wouldn’t infringe on All People’s Liberties.”
Your partisan hypocrisy is just about as bold as it’ll ever get. Needless to say that doesn't even take into account the difference between a US Citizen and a foreigner.
Sorry, no matter how much you try to make this comparison, the Capitol is not the same as a public road.
Who's public? Is Mexico 'Public' domain for US citizens and their ideology? Save yourself some time and just lobby to turn Mexico into the US already.
This should be fun. How are two government owned locations not the same in regards on who has access to them?
So you want the state to prosecute me for my free speech advocating for liberalizing immigration laws? How very fascist of you.
No; that's the left and you when the table turns. Course you know that. You're just selling propaganda narratives to get what you want.
So many new commenters with new handles. So where was this article posted to generate such a response? Breitbart? Some place on Twitter? Gab?
I'm sorry. Didn't realize that when you first set up your account, you were automatically credited with 100 comments. There's such a thing as a "first time". That's something that will take an a whole new meaning when you finally get to be with a girl, young man.
Yup, this article was posted to some garbage right-wing site. The offensive insults are testament to that.
Evidence of this seems lacking.
It was probably shared on Facebook or Reddit. Neither of which is remotely “right”, but does have users who aren’t leftist or rabidly open borders.
Libertarians who believe in open borders, let alone don't recognize the three years of illegals flooding this country as anything other than a crisis, need to get their heads out of their asses. You cannot believe in property rights and at the same time not believe in property rights when the violators are not us citizens.
I approach it from the perspective of incentivization. No welfare or soft landing for a lot of these folks coming over will disincentivize a lot of them. Those that still come will be incentivized to use the ports of entry where they can get a tax number and work permit. Make the process easy and take away the argument that illegal entry is the only option. The reduced "illegal" border crossings will make those happening for illicit purposes easier to spot and they can be engaged much more appropriately and forcefully. Everything is built around taxing income. Switch to a national sales tax that doesn't tax productivity and you are able to make sure every person in the country pays tax based on consumption, including illegals. There's a lot more I can think of but that's the gist of how I think it should work.
Those that still come will be incentivized to use the ports of entry where they can get a tax number and work permit.
In what world are you living in? A migrant cannot simply walk up to a port of entry and get a work permit. That is the type of system many of us would LIKE to have, but that is not the system that we do have.
So you actually think that all of these migrants are coming here because they are intentionally refusing to apply for a work permit that border guards will just freely hand out if asked? Really?
Open borders in a libertarian world. We aren't close to a libertarian world. If anything we're heading for totalitarianism.
WORD
You cannot believe in property rights and at the same time not believe in property rights when the violators are not us citizens.
But no one here is arguing that migrants are entitled to violate PRIVATE property rights. No one is entitled to do that, neither migrants nor citizens.
But the government owns public property, and the rules for public property are different than the rules for private property. Private property owners are free to be as arbitrary and capricious as they wish as to how their own property is used, provided there is no NAP violation. But a government managing public property is obligated to respect the rights of everyone on that property. So taxpayers do not have a legitimate right to demand that migrants get kicked off of public property because "it's our land" - no, the land does not belong to any one person and the private property rules don't apply.
If citizens have no say in how property is managed after taxing and taking, then democracy, of any form, is a colossal scam.
Not "no say". Just not the same say as a private property owner would have.
And pure democracy is not a good idea, I agree. Pure democracy just means that the mob violates your rights.
Distinction without a difference, especially since you didn't provide one.
I'm still calling it a scam.
Nation States have the right to control their borders and decide on the nature of their country.
Solution: Give work permits to employed in the private sector (only after the company offers the job to three Americans and they have denied) for three years. No single moms, no kids. Everyone else here illegally is deported. Eisenhower deported 2M...it can be done.
Liberty demands very very high fences.
If they are undocumented, how do we know?
I'd be okay with illegals if the rest of us didn't have to play by the government's rules. I also don't want to pay for their "benefits". Cheap lawn care is not something the rest of us should subsidize.
Hey Fiona, when are you going to talk about the cruel border controls being enacted in New York City and Chicago?
The Constitution is a living document things can be modified just look at the Commerce Clause.
Biben needs to kick Abbott right in the shins, oh wait.......
"Undocumented immigrants aren’t the same as an invading army"
SOooooo what are 5 million males, 18 to 35 years old, crossing the border with guns called?
Uh-huh. Where did you get that stat - Faux News? You've counted these five million guns for yourself?
PS: I thought gun ownership in Texas was something enshrined and encouraged? You'd think Texans would encourage more guns! (Oh yeah - but these people aren't the right color...)
From 1960 to 2018, the most encounters at the southern border recorded in one year was 1,643,679 in the year 2000. It was less than 400,000 in 2018.
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Mar/bp-southwest-border-sector-apps-fy1960-fy2018.pdf
In FY2022 and FY2023, the totals were 2,378,994 and 2,475,669 per:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters
"Undocumented immigrants aren’t the same as an invading army"
True. You generally make some effort to repel an invading army.
Of note, the left cannot produce a cohesive argument that doesn't result in "well I guess we just have to let them all in, we tried right?"
This is what happens when you dont take responsibility and do your job. Someone else will do it for you.
You dont get to land on "well anything we do can have negative consequences and be icky, so I guess the answer is do nothing and continue the trend of MILLIONS of undocumented people coming in per year"
Sorry, this is not an adult argument, and therefore you should be ignored. What do you expect as an American when you go to literally any country. You have to show your passport, and then you are allowed to stay for a little while, and then gtfo. You dont get to live and work there forever, and you know that if you got caught, you would be in trouble without going through the proper steps. Why in the fuck is it unfair to apply the same policies that we not only expect every other country to do, but they do fucking do.
In the end, all of their arguments just funnel down to completely open borders, and that isnt sustainable. Sorry kids, the adults actually do need to be put back in charge. You clowns couldn't run a lemonade stand.
Those people at the border that you see on the Fox News clips, they are applying for asylum. It is not illegal to apply for asylum. While their application is pending, they are not illegal immigrants.
What do you expect as an American when you go to literally any country. You have to show your passport, and then you are allowed to stay for a little while, and then gtfo.
Okay, now take a look at the process of applying for asylum. Here is how it works in Sweden.
https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Protection-and-asylum-in-Sweden/Applying-for-asylum/How-to-apply-for-asylum.html
Some tidbits:
Also read this:
https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Protection-and-asylum-in-Sweden/While-you-are-waiting-for-a-decision.html
So you can fly to Sweden right now, and at the airport, claim asylum and go through this process. You'll get Swedish welfare and you'll get to stay in Sweden while the application is pending. You will get a work permit and you'll be expected to support yourself as well. So this is the same type of process as is used here, except Sweden is more generous with the welfare.
Is it illegal to deny asylum?
Without due process?
We don't have to allow any asylum at all. If Israel doesn't why do we have to?
Due process does not generally apply to immigration-related proceedings. Sorry.
To apply for asylum you a) go to a port of entry and b) stop at the first safe country. Unless they are all from Mexico (which they are not), their claims are fraudulent.
People who seek asylum in Sweden are housed in reception centers.
Furthermore, the Swedes are reconsidering their stance, with the left wing government falling in 2022 due to Sweden's absurd asylum policies.
The people we see purposefully avoiding points of entry and contact with authorities are applying for asylum? Did you just type that??
Here's someone saying some of the same things I've been saying here on this subject for several years:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/i-was-a-border-patrol-agent-for-27-years-here-s-how-we-fix-the-border-opinion/ar-BB1h8Uaw?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=29285bee4cf64b429927ee9176e9c1c2&ei=19
Harrigan. HARRIGAN!!!
https://clip.cafe/predator-2-1990/hey-harrigan/
Are you telling us there are no downsides to unlimited immigration?
Malware. Do not click.
You'll think differently Fiona when the "migrants" show up on your doorstep looking for handout. Be sure to open your home them.
I wonder if Fiona was just aghast at the cruelty of migrants being flown into Martha's Vineyard.
Fiona may well be "opening her doors" to these young, virile migrants.
It is disappointing to see the sheer number of people posting in a libertarian forum AGAINST the freedom of association and IN FAVOR of an even greater security state to keep them 'safe' from shadowy nebulous undefined threats. Even Diane, who breathlessly posts Glenn Greenwald videos here, now wants to slurp some national security cock to keep him/her "safe" from "OMG terrorists at the southern border". It is absurd.
I don't see how anyone can call themselves a libertarian and not be in favor of protecting the liberty OF ALL. How is it pro-liberty to believe that only a chosen few, citizens, are entitled to liberty, and everyone else can just rot? That is not libertarian, that is conservatism.
Hmm, why is the cost of housing not coming down? Why are hospitals having problems staying open? Why are school budgets being strained?
Cannot figure out why.
You do not live ANYWHERE near a border. Your opinion, like Fiona's, is immaterial.
Freedom of association means the group you are in gets to decide who joins. You should focus on why Israel is not allowing millions of Palestinians to return to land they stole as part of the Nationalistic/Socialistic/Zionist movement. Come on now Jeff..why shouldn't Israel have open borders?
It is disappointing to see the sheer number of people posting in a libertarian forum AGAINST the freedom of association
Freedom of association permits the possibility of exclusion. Who are you to tell others that they should have to get along with whoever?
How is it pro-liberty to believe that only a chosen few, citizens, are entitled to liberty, and everyone else can just rot?
Other than the above, you accept that freedom is not the desire of most people. And indeed, history tells us that it isn't.
"I don’t see how anyone can call themselves a libertarian and not be in favor of protecting the liberty OF ALL."
Well, you heard Jeff folks, we can't be libertarians unless we support the United States invading China to free the Uyghurs.
I see Ms. Harrigan lives in DC...why am I not surprised. Reason should not employe anyone in NYC or DC. Nation States exist for a reason..in our case to protect our liberty. Diversity is not a strength, meritocracy is. Open borders..why isn't Reason screaming for Israel to allow millions of Palestinians the right to return? I mean if open borders are good for us why not the Jewish State? Reason? Come on now let's be consistent.
Do you know Martha's Vinyard has 2/3 the land mass of Gaza but just a few thousand "white folks" and the Obamas. So why not grant asylum to 2/3 of Palestinians in Gaza to settle in MV? Sounds like a great plan..why can't we give Palestinians asylum? I say give them NYC..ha ha that would be so sweet wouldn't it.
Seems like they already have the run of the place, shutting down bridges and highways and streets and airports.
I was thinking of posting a comment about how Canada would react if all the people claiming they were going to leave if Trump was elected just over to Canada without filing any paperwork.
But then I realized Canada is a Democratic Socialist shithole and anything they would do means nothing in a free country.
There are no real comparisons we can make with other nations. They are all shitholes. People trying to escape a shithole shouldn't be treated like an invading army, but they also shouldn't be welcomed in like we currently do. The system is broken and needs fixing. I don't know how but clearly what they are doing now doesn't work and shutting it all down isn't the right thing either.
I started off sure that shutting the border was the right answer but I convinced myself that it's not the right answer... Fuck.
Ignoring the third alternative offered for 50 years by the 3rd party with the spoiler votes has that effect.
People trying to escape a shithole shouldn’t be treated like an invading army
When they are being funneled into our country by the millions by hostile foreign powers that mean to thereby harm us, then, yes, they should be treated like an invading army.
Read the Cruikshank Supreme Court case quashing the indictments of the lynch mob that murdered nearly 100 blacks elected in Grant Parish, Louisiana. That was to appease the Klan so the Republicans could have Comstock antiabortion laws AND "elect" men like Hayes instead of Dems like Tilden. The motivating grounds read like the ones in nearly all asylum cases that fail. The Klan wins unless you can prove the persecution was or is motivated by Race, Superstition, Nationality, Social Collectivism or Political opinion, and committed by or with assent of government agents. It is the chickens' homecoming.
"Every court that has reviewed the question" of what qualifies as an invasion has interpreted it as "an 'armed hostility from another political entity,'"
So, you see, Atiila the Hun sweeping down from Canada or Somali pirates invading Miami aren't technically "invasions"?
The Mexican crime cartels are not armed hostile political entities?
yes, border properties should be able to protect their property with nukes. problem solved
I thought I told you you already that Americans no longer care what the out of touch billionaires like Charles Koch and their weirdo pedophile globalist friends think about stuff.
The open border ahit will never, ever be popular, no matter how much bullshit you losers sling.
I think the evidence is strong that the illegal aliens overrunning the border are not engaging in an "invasion" as that term was understood by the Founding Fathers. Having said that, it is equally clear that these "migrants" are engaging in criminal conduct and they have no legal or moral "right" to enter this country. It is also clear that Biden is refusing to enforce our nation's immigration laws because he's hoping to create the permanent Democrat Majority that his party's fucked up policies have failed to create.
Every sovereign nation had the right (and duty) to enforce its borders. Anybody who denies that is either an anarchist or a fucking idiot.
the evidence is strong that the illegal aliens overrunning the border are not engaging in an “invasion”
And you know this because you've spoken to all of them? No, we don't know why most of them are here, but we do know they are being sent by hostile foreign powers.
I think the evidence is strong that the illegal aliens overrunning the border are not engaging in an “invasion” as that term was understood by the Founding Fathers.
How so? How does this differ from what the Founding Fathers would have understood the term?
Thank you for this appeal to reason in an atmosphere of blind hatred. I welcome to America anyone who is here to work, not to sponge off welfare. People rightly complain about the expense to taxpayers of housing immigrants in luxury hotels, but the solution to that problem is to stop housing immigrants in luxury hotels, not to slam the door to immigrants.
I’m an immigrant. I applied, went through the process, got my green card, and eventually became a US citizen.
People like you and Fiona despise and piss on us immigrants.
I agree with you. Thanks for doing it the right way. I know it sucked and was challenging. Most of us are happy you are here.
Jdl, you know who wants a wall? Mexicans. The ones that came here and worked to get a green card. You know who doesn't want a wall? People like you. You want a new slave class.
Immigrants aren't housed in luxury hotels. Illegal immigrants are. Legal immigrants have houses/apartments/ or places to stay.
No-one is slamming the door. People just want it to the right way. That wait you can assimilate them into society.
But hey, if you can't use the word illegal, we already know your view. I hope you take a lot in your home and neighborhood. I mean everyone is welcome right, until they show up.
I welcome to America anyone who is here to work, not to sponge off welfare.
And there's no way to tell if those coming in are such people, as long as the border is wide open and anyone can just stroll in.
not to slam the door to immigrants.
I have never seen any commenter here advocate "slam(ing) the door to immigrants". You're kicking a straw man. The problem we have now is that there IS NO door. It doesn't matter what our rules are for entry if anyone can literally walk around them. If we want an orderly, rational system for admitting worthy immigrants, border security and immigration enforcement have to come first.
Undocumented immigrants aren’t the same as an invading army, but the Texas governor keeps acting like they are.
No, the Texas governor is acting like what they actually are: an illegal invasion of millions of people who cost Texas and US tax payers billions of dollars.
Oh, and illegal migrants are not "undocumented immigrants", they aren't "immigrants" at all.
Not enough immigration pathways? Japan, S. Korea and China don't allow tiny numbers of immigrations. These migrants cost taxpayers billions. Most don't speak English. We're supposed to welcome everyone regardless of them being a public good or public charge? Many are criminals, it is therefore an invasion.
Why is this woke, millennial globalist allowed to write about immigration? It's the fox guarding the hen house.
They aren't undocumented - they are illegal. Wait to show your a democrat.
Laws are for others right? I'm sure Fiona has taken a lot of 'undocumented into her home'. It's easy to virtue signal when it's in Texas. No so easy to put up - NY, Chicago, Philly, as examples
And one can be documented AND illegal. Someone under a deportation order is documented but here illegally.
Hey Fiona, I have been engaged to a Russian and dated a Turkish lady.
They worked their butt off to get a green card and become a citizen. It took years. It costed like 10 k but it was worth to them.
To you, someone breaking the law, doesn't have to work or anything to become a citizen, right? What a idiotic view.
I'm pretty sure this article gave me AIDS.
Indigenous people from El Salvador, Guatemala and Mexico come “in search of jobs and a better life. They don’t need to be put in cages, separated from their children like during the Trump Administration, or be cut up by razor wire furnished by, of all places, South Dakota.” — Tribe President Star Comes Out
It’s amazing to watch hundreds of thousands of Democrats marching and screaming for the annilation of the Jewish people / Jewish state. It’s surreal. Harvard has morphed into a Nazi death camp.