D.C. Circuit Seems Skeptical of Trump's Alarmingly Broad Presidential Immunity Claim
As one appeals court judge pointed out, Trump's defense could literally let a president get away with murder.

Suppose a president "ordered SEAL Team Six to assassinate a political rival" but "was not impeached," D.C. Circuit Judge Florence Y. Pan said while questioning Donald Trump's lawyer, D. John Sauer, on Tuesday. "Would he be subject to criminal prosecution?"
Sauer repeatedly resisted giving a straight answer to that question. But based on the position that Trump has taken in the federal case charging him with unlawfully trying to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election, the answer was clearly no. According to Trump's lawyers, a former president can be prosecuted for "official acts," which would include his orders to a military unit like SEAL Team Six, only if he is first impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate based on the same underlying conduct.
Pan, who also posed hypotheticals involving a president who "sell[s] pardons" or "sell[s] military secrets," was troubled by the implications of that position. So were the other two judges on the D.C. Circuit panel, J. Michelle Childs and Karen L. Henderson. None of them seemed inclined to accept the argument that presidential immunity bars Special Counsel Jack Smith from prosecuting Trump for his efforts to reverse Joe Biden's victory.
Trump, who showed up for the hearing to underline his argument that he is a victim of "election interference" disguised as criminal justice, is asking the appeals court to overrule U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan, who last month concluded that "former Presidents enjoy no special conditions on their federal criminal liability." If the D.C. Circuit panel agrees with Chutkan, Trump can appeal that decision to the full court or the Supreme Court. Depending on how long that process takes, it could delay the start of Trump's trial, which is currently scheduled for early March.
According to Sauer, the case against Trump violates a longstanding principle, rooted in the constitutional separation of powers, that "the president's official acts" are "never examinable by the courts." The only exception, he says, is described in the Impeachment Judgment Clause: "Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."
Sauer reads that clause to mean that prosecution is allowed only after removal via impeachment, and then only if the criminal case is based on the same actions that led to impeachment. A president who ordered the assassination of a political opponent, Sauer told Pan, "would speedily be impeached and convicted before the criminal prosecution." But suppose he avoided removal by resigning, as Richard Nixon did, or by committing the crime at the very end of his term. In either scenario, he would literally get away with murder, assuming that Sauer's understanding of presidential immunity is correct.
The case against Trump involves an analogous situation. Trump was impeached based on essentially the same conduct as Smith's election interference case. But when the Senate tried him, he was no longer in office. Trump's lawyers argued that the Senate did not have the authority to try a former president, and several Republicans who voted to acquit him, including Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R–Ky.), accepted that argument.
McConnell emphasized that Trump could still face criminal prosecution. But according to Sauer's interpretation of the Impeachment Judgment Clause, the process that McConnell presented as an alternative to a Senate conviction is foreclosed without a Senate conviction. So this very case shows that a president, under the Constitution as Trump's lawyers understand it, can avoid both political accountability via impeachment and criminal liability via prosecution as long as he times his crimes with those goals in mind.
The "absolute immunity" that Sauer is advocating also would shield a former president from prosecution for crimes that did not come to light until after he left office. Even a president who was removed for "high crimes and misdemeanors"—say, ordering the FBI to frame his political enemies—could not be prosecuted for a different offense, such as accepting bribes in exchange for government contracts.
As Sauer sees it, such possibilities pale beside the potential for politically motivated prosecutions of former presidents. That threat, he argues, would have a chilling effect on every president's ability to perform his duties. "If a president has to look over his shoulder or her shoulder every time he or she has to make a controversial decision," he told the D.C. Circuit panel, and "worry 'after I leave office, am I going to jail for this, when my political opponents take power?'—that inevitably dampens the ability of the president" to do his job.
Sauer, of course, portrays the case against Trump as an example of that very danger. President Biden's likely opponent in this fall's election "is being prosecuted by the administration that he's seeking to replace," Sauer said. "That is the frightening future. That is tailor made to launch cycles of recrimination that will shake our republic."
Democrats, Sauer suggested, may regret opening the door to the prosecution of former presidents. "It would authorize, for example, the indictment of President Biden in the Western District of Texas after he leaves office for mismanaging the border," he said, and "let a Texas jury and Texas judge sit in judgment over the validity" of his immigration policies.
The government's lawyer, John Pearce, argued that Sauer was exaggerating the threat of "vindictive, tit-for-tat prosecutions." While no former president has previously faced criminal prosecution, Pearce said, that's because no president has ever done what Trump is accused of doing. "Never before [have] there been allegations that a sitting president has, with private individuals and using the levers of power, sought to fundamentally subvert the democratic republic and the electoral system," he told the judges. "And frankly, if that kind of fact pattern arises again, I think it would be awfully scary if there weren't some sort of mechanism by which to reach that criminally."
Sauer says the threat of criminal prosecution would have a paralyzing effect on the presidency. But that has not happened so far, even though the possibility of prosecuting former presidents has never been definitively foreclosed. To the contrary, public officials generally seem to have assumed that a former president can be prosecuted for crimes he committed in office, even if he was never impeached. "At least since the Watergate era 50 years ago," Pearce said, there has been "widespread societal recognition, including by presidents and the executive branch, that a former president is subject to criminal prosecution."
As Judge Childs noted, Gerald Ford was operating under that assumption when he pardoned his predecessor "for all offenses against the United States" he may have committed as president. In response to Childs, Sauer claimed that pardon involved "purely private conduct," as opposed to "official acts." But that is plainly not true, since the proposed articles of impeachment against Nixon describe several official (but corrupt) acts.
The articles alleged that Nixon used "the powers of his high office" to subvert investigations of the Watergate break-in and the subsequent cover-up. They accused him, for example, of "making or causing to be made false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States" and "interfering or endeavouring to interfere with the conduct of investigations" by the FBI and the Justice Department. The charges against Nixon were "not about private conduct," Pearce said. Among other things, he noted, Nixon was accused of "using the CIA to try to interfere with an FBI investigation."
The allegations against Nixon fit comfortably within the category of "official acts" as Sauer defines it. When Trump pressured state and federal officials to embrace his stolen-election fantasy and help him stay in office, his lawyers say, he was doing his job by "tak[ing] care that the laws be faithfully executed"—in this case, the laws governing presidential elections. Likewise when Trump recruited "alternate" electors and asked state legislators to recognize them instead of Biden's electors. Since conferring with legislators and executive-branch officials about preserving the integrity of federal elections fell "within the 'outer perimeter' of his official responsibility," Trump's lawyers argue, he cannot be prosecuted for doing that, regardless of his motive or intent.
Judge Henderson, the only Republican appointee on the D.C. Circuit panel, did not dismiss Sauer's concern about politically motivated prosecutions. "How do we write an opinion that would stop the floodgates?" she asked Pearce. But even Henderson was skeptical of the way Trump's lawyers portray the conduct underlying the charges against him. "I think it's paradoxical," she told Sauer, "to say that his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed allows him to violate criminal laws."
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Trump's defense could literally let a president get away with murder.
But his Cult tells us Donnie is not really an authoritarian. He is really really not. He just wants eternal and limitless power.
He is an authoritarian due to something he never did? That's a new retarded take.
I get paid more than $120 to $130 every hour for working on the web. I found out about this activity 3 months prior and subsequent to joining this I have earned Qf effectively $15k from this without having internet working abilities Copy underneath site to..
Check It—>>> http://Www.Smartcareer1.com
Ask shithead's like Pluggo for an example and they just splutter and run away.
Maybe they're worried Trump will try to imprison his election opponent for manufactured or imaginary crimes. Wouldn't that be insane.
Awesome. Now do Hillary. Then do Stacy Abrahams.
You pathetic Democrat shill.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Is Biden then responsible for the drone strike on the kids and aid workers in Afghanistan he ordered? Just asking for a deluded liberal friend.
Haven't almost all presidents committed murder? I thought it was a perk of the job. Authorizing drone bombings of weddings and all that.
But only Barack had the balls to drone strike an American and his son...Wait why isn't he on trial for that?
As one appeals court judge pointed out, Trump's defense could literally let a president get away with murder.
You mean Obama right?
Or the Capitol officer right? I mean I can continue.
Cops and agents get away with it under immunity often. And the fact is trump didn't murder anyone.
Don't forget Biden, he drone striked an innocent family after he botched the Afghan withdrawal and got 13 servicemen killed. But at least he knew what time it was.
True. But he did take out high valued explosive water in that situation.
I would still call that qualitatively different from knowingly and willingly ordering the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen, who has rights guaranteed by the US government.
Ultimately, also, Al-Awlaki was guilty of speech. To my knowledge, he was not actively under arms, not supplying weapons or material support to any terrorist, and not actively in combat against any American military forces. It would be completely different if he was an active combatant. Instead, he was communicating and telling people to attack America and join jihad. I think that violates the Brandenburg standard, as it does seem to be incitement of imminent lawless activity, and does seem likely to affect the end. But the fact is that he was classified as a military target, equivalent as if he was a general working out of a fort or an airbase.
He was killed out of convenience-because capturing him would require either cooperation with the Yemeni government, that the US was unlikely to secure, or else a Seal Team 6 style raid that would require putting boots on the ground. Convenience is not an excuse for violating protected rights, however.
Then how about the aspirin factory Clinton bombed in the 90s?
Completely agree regarding Obama. It was always excluding judicial determination required for citizens.
And why would this be a bad thing? If Biden committed murder, why shouldn't he be prosecuted for murder? You're trying so hard to excuse everything Trump did you're ignoring the benefits of holding our elected officials to ordinary criminal standards.
They mean your argument that if Trump isn't impeached for a murder he committed while in office, then he can't be criminally tried for that murder.
Still retarded from the morning huh?
The fact you idiots are now defending it with hypothetical arguments is amusing. If your legal argument was firm you wouldn't rely on such.
To even reach this argument you have to claim the executive has no duty regarding elections despite the VRA and decades of executive involvement.
But your hate and ignorance is so strong you rely on idiotic hypothetical arguments.
Since your argument is against me, not what I said, I will smugly declare victory.
You made an argument of no substance and no merit. I called out your use of hypothetical.
How are you so bad at constructing a logical argument?
Extra irony. Your comment is about me. It was wrong in what you said. But it clearly includes "your argument." LOL.
Fuck off, trollboy. You misrepresented his argument and then when he tells you to fuck off you play the victim.
You're not the victim.
To think he complained about me not responding to him. He really does have an addiction to victim hood.
Bull. He said that Trump can't be tried criminally for anything he did in office unless he was successfully impeached for the same thing. He didn't put any limits on the crimes. So if Trump murdered a Democrat on the Senate floor, and had a Republican majority, nothing else would happen. And you'd both cheer.
No. I didn’t. I’ve clearly laid out my arguments below. But you clearly can’t comprehend them.
Note heavy use of official acts and calling out your ignorant reliance on hypothetical that don’t matter to the argument. You even make a more ignorant hypothetical because your uninformed belief system has no merit.
Sarc. I dont know who lied to you. But you aren’t an intelligent person. Not a principled one.
No, you moved your goalposts down below.
Now you're saying that declaring fraud before failing to find it while inciting supporters to borderline rebellion was an official act?
Not sure which goalposts are more absurd.
Liberalism/Progressivism (or whatever they are calling Marxism these days) is a mental illness, characterized by delusions impervious to facts and reason. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-5th Edition (DSM-5) defines “delusions” as “…fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.”As the puppet leader of the liberals said “We prefer Truth over Facts.” Not “the” truth, mind you, but “their” truth.
Please don’t waste your time trying to get a liberal to change his/her/their/xis/xer mind with reason and facts. Facts don’t matter.
No pussy, you are not victorious. You gutless, drunken, cowardly piece of shit.
Either find a murder to charge him with, or drop the stupid hypothetical scenario. No one has been charged with murder, and Trump's attorney is stupid to try to answer hypotheticals.
I can see why the commentariat routinely attacks anyone who suggests reforming qualified immunity for cops.
You cheer on a cop who shot an unarmed woman. Lol.
Make your first intelligent argument in the history of your posting here. Why do you rely on narratives, strawmen, and hypothetical? Because youre incapable of intelligent, informed, and logical construction.
Even your trump is Hitler bullshit is less retarded than your conviction on hypothetical.
You cheer on a cop who shot an unarmed woman. Lol.
You sure are a big fan of the Big Lie. Repeat it enough and stupid people will believe it. You're on both sides of that coin.
We are not fans of the things you lie about. The booze has almost completely destroyed your pathetic excuse for a brain. So why not give in, and finish drinking yourself to death?
You know I’m right. So just do it.
Who are you complaining about? The Court of Appeals judge posed the murder hypothetical, as the logical culmination of Trump's legal immunity argument. No one has accused Trump of murder.
By the way Sullum... you didnt notice the irony from the question discussing killing a political opponent as the current president and party are working to lock him up?
The "president and party" are not working to lock Donnie up, you moron.
Fedeal and local prosecutors are.
Oh. You decided to just jump to straight retard.
Who runs the federal executive branch?
Which politically elected party members are running the Ga and NY suits?
The bureaucracy runs the government. Yes they're mostly Democrats. However they run on their own inertia. Changing the heads of departments has little effect on the overall picture.
Did this sound intelligent in your head?
As a government contractor I thought you'd have figured this out by now. Or do you not spend any time talking with your customer.
Did you think this sounded intelligent in your head?
I know you're desperate to deflect blame from all dems bad acts, but this is especially retarded as both DAs were elected and ran campaigns on getting Trump. Jack Smith was appointed from outside of the DoJ. Both the Ga DA and Smith have met with WH counsel regarding the charges before filing.
Youre political need to defend and protect against dem bad acts remains noted.
So you've never talked to your government customers. That's all I needed to know.
Collecting welfare checks from the government doesn’t make you a contractor. You’re just a severely alcoholic, rageaholic pussy with serious delusions.
turd lies. turd lies when he knows he’s lying. turd lies when we know he’s lying. turd lies when he knows that we know he’s lying.
turd lies. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit and a pederast besides.
Why is that so hard?
Yes, if a president orders a rival assassinated or does it himself, if the investigation does not lead to impeachment then we must accept that his actions were found to be justified.
Obama murdered America citizens without punishment.
Yep. If a jury returns a not guilty verdict, he also got away with murder. O.J. Simpson almost certainly got away with murder. If you can’t convince 2/3 of the Senate that the President’s official acts constitute a murder, perhaps he didn’t commit murder.
This is different if it’s a clearly private action, like if the President murders his wife. In that case he’s not engaging in an official act.
I mean, impeachment gives you a remedy. What if he orders a murder on his political opponent and then pardons himself? Is that getting away with murder?
No, even if it's a purely personal act you'd still need the impeachment to determine that as opposed to some legitimate national security concern.
I disagree, and I don't even think Trump's lawyers are arguing THAT. I do concede that it can be a bit of snarl to sort out what constitutes executive duties from private actions when it comes to the Presidency, but I think it's a significant distinction. The President's immunity only exists to actions he takes in his official capacity as the President using presidential authority.
The lawyers argument is that all criminal acts in office must first be precluded by an impeachment. They then argued that Trump was impeached over the charge and was not found guilty. Their argument is since this was an official act and adjudicated by congress, a state prosecution team nor the DoJ get a secondary attempt at it without congressional involvement.
Allowing such is going to start a run of ex term prosecutions.
Obama droning. Biden aiding and abetting smugglers.
The Trump argument is acts under official office actions are not able to be prosecuted after the fact without proper constitutional process requiring an impeachment. And I agree. Or else you will get absurd results post elections for political reasons.
Pieces of shit like Sarc, and pedophile Marxists like Pluggo don’t care. They want Trump’s scalp and don’t care if their fellow travelers burn down the country to get it.
In a truly civilized society, all of them would have been put down long ago.
Really? So the President could be tried for murder by the LA DA for shooting down a plane coming from China to LAX with a nuke aboard? Or does the LA DA get top secret clearance for this, what about the judge and jury if he goes ahead with a trial regardless? If Flight 93 was a lone attacker would shooting it down have been mass murder or legitimate self defense? DC prosecutors sure as shit wouldn't know.
Sure, I'm in 24 land but so are the judges. You can't go hyperbolic edge case then demand all responses stay in the norm.
Really? So the President could be tried for murder by the LA DA for shooting down a plane coming from China to LAX with a nuke aboard?
Clearly not a private action, unless the President commandeers an F-22 and flies up to shoot down the plane himself because he really wants to kill all the assholes on that flight.
Only not a private action if you have the Top Secret information available to you, otherwise it's just an abuse of power in pursuit of some private aim. The local DAs will lack that.
Him ordering any plane to be shot down is only done using his presidential authority. He can't do that as a private citizen. The military is obeying his orders as a superior officer.
Beyond that, the Court can view classified information, offered under seal, and use that as grounds to dismiss an indictment. Courts are rather frequently given redacted access to classified documents in order to weigh a response. After a filing by that President's defense team, the charges would be dismissed, under your hypothetical. The President would not be under any jeopardy.
"Then I have an Article 2, where I have the right to do whatever I want as president." -- Trump
Azathoth agrees!
Piss off Fatfuck. You have business here.
Yes, if a president orders a rival assassinated or does it himself, if the investigation does not lead to impeachment then we must accept that his actions were found to be justified.
This is insane. You're literally arguing that the president can get away with murder if he can convince his partisan allies in Congress to let him get away with murder.
So all the president needs is 34 loyal Senators in his pocket and he is literally above the law. That is your position here.
Worked for Obama.
You’re literally arguing that the president can get away with murder if he can convince his partisan allies in Congress to let him get away with murder.
The Trump Defense is that the president can't be criminally tried for anything he did while in office unless he was impeached and removed from office for the very same crimes.
That is what the folks in the comments of a libertarian magazine are defending.
Speaking of magazines, here's a good tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMol6-rso98
We would be a little more understanding if the crimes Trump were charged with were actual...crimes.
Those 34 Senators would definitely need to be worried about the consequences of supporting a man who is willing to assassinate people he dislikes, yes. And if it came to this level of overt political violence, we’d have much bigger problems than prosecuting the president. How many political assassinations would we have from both sides? How could the President ever appear in public?
These extreme examples are asking about acts that would essentially constitute civil war. If it comes to that, whether it’s legal or not isn’t going to stop the war from happening.
No doubt that would be more likely to happen in an environment in which the President enjoys absolute immunity.
The bizarre claim being made by Trump boils down to: the President has absolute immunity from any criminal prosecution, provided he has enough political cover in the Senate to scupper any related impeachment conviction.
Does it really matter what the former President's lawyer say? The point of the exercise was to delay the trial, a goal it will likely achieve. The Trump lawyers could have submitted Hop on Pop as the brief and read Green Eggs and Ham during the hearing.
This make shock far leftists like yourself, but yes, it matters what defendants say. That's why we have a legal system. In fact the onus is on the prosecution to prove why an act wasn't official. Again. Trump didn't murder anyone. Again, federal executive has oversight of state actions even in elections (see every damn challenge to state voting laws regarding the VRA). The judge expounded open a concept not in argument, likely due to the fact the prosecution did not offer up how election integrity doesn't fall under the purview of official acts. It is why she had to come up with idiotic examples.
You remind me of people who learn a tiny bit to fool those who know nothing, but look really foolish to anyone who knows something.
You remind me of a d student retard who convinced himself he was intelligent mostly from lack of self awareness and alcoholism.
I mean just this morning you didn’t even know what the impeachment clause said. Lol.
Also amused there isn't a single leftist here you dont white knight for.
Guess I went to better schools than you, because people like that disappeared very quickly.
edit: he changed his post based upon my response.
I corrected spelling retard. Didn't even note your response until now. What do you think I said? You misread it didn't you. Lol.
Do you want to compare resumes? Hint. I'm not a level 2 IT help desk. I have a real job.
Let's go through our history. I'll start.
Drug addiction cook who got fired and ended up homeless and had CPS called on him. Someone who can never construct an informed argument relying on headlines without even reading the story he uses as evidence.
Who does the above describe?
It describes a picture you've made in your mind, based upon comments online, comments you routinely accuse of being lies when they don't fit your narrative, to create a caricature that you routinely argue against, because you can't win an argument unless you're arguing against lies of your own creation.
We call you a liar because you constantly lie.
Anyway, since you've declared where I went to school, where I lived, and my entire work history, now it's your turn.
Show some credentials or admit you're a liar who just makes shit up.
Everything stated above is stuff you bragged about for some reason lol.
B.S Comp E/M.S. Sys E. Both top 15 rated at the time. But please. Go on. Lol.
Everything stated above is stuff you bragged about for some reason lol.
No, it's what is said at the tail end of a game of Chinese Whispers. I find it to be entertaining to be honest.
B.S Comp E/M.S. Sys E. Both top 15 rated at the time.
That would help explain your literal and obtuse nature.
Sarc, leave forever. Better yet, finish drinking yourself to death. You’re worthless, and not really even human. Just a husk, hollowed out by decades of alcoholism. Rage, and envy towards those of us who are better than you. Which is nearly everyone.
You know I’m right. You know Jesse is right. This is why you’re so angry.
This may shock you, but I agree that "In fact the onus is on the prosecution to prove why an act wasn’t official." The prosecution must prove this at a trial and that is why we need a trial. So, rather than delay a trial you should be asking for a speedy trial for the prosecution to put up that evidence.
Cool. Trump has said that the actions are official actions, which can't be prosecuted, but the judge has said he can't offer that immunity as a defense. Which means, he has to appeal, otherwise there's no onus on the prosecution to prove that this is a violation of his official actions.
This appeal is asking the question about whether Trump has any criminal immunity at all, not whether these particular actions qualify. That's something that HAS to be settled before the trial can move forward because it bears on the outcome.
But the fact is that this matter does not have to be settled prior to trial. Most appeals happen post-trial. Trump's lawyers are making an interlocutory appeal and among the court's options are to say that immunity can be decided on a post-trial appeal. In this way the court could leave the question open should the defendant be acquitted.
Doesn't actually need a trial which is why the appeals court is hearing it prior dumdum.
If a trial is not needed, why did you suggest the onus was on the prosecution? This suggests a trial is needed. As I point out above the issue of immunity could be decided in a post-trial appeal and would not even be necessary should the defendant be acquitted.
The trial was never going to happen in March. That's way too short a timeline for such a novel and complicated case. The election will decide what's going to happen with Trump. If you like democracy, you should be happy about that.
Democrats hate democracy. Except when ‘democracy’ is democrat elites dictating to the masses.
>>Trump's defense could literally let a president get away with murder.
for the six seconds it takes until impeachment. are false narratives necessary here?
Do Leftists have anything else? OK, corruption and false narratives.
So let me see if I understand this correctly:
The judicial system, composed of judges and prosecutors who are not directly elected politicians, that is a “political persecution” when it is used to prosecute Trump engaging in a potentially criminal act.
So the *ONLY* remedy for any crimes that a president may have committed while in office, is for explicitly partisan politicians in the House and Senate to impeach and convict.
So the Trump team’s position here, is that the president may only be punished for committing a crime, only if his partisan allies in Congress conclude it’s a crime? That matters of law and justice, as they pertain to the president, may only be decided upon by purely partisan politicians in Congress?
Shouldn’t the application of the law be applied in a neutral, fair and unbiased manner? If a person is guilty of a crime, it shouldn’t require having to convince a bunch of Republican politicians or Democratic politicians that the crime has been committed. That person should be prosecuted for the crime regardless of what the politicians say. Right? Isn’t that how the Schoolhouse Rock version of justice is supposed to work?
>>So let me see if I understand this correctly:
nope
>>The judicial system, composed of judges and prosecutors who are not directly elected politicians
strike one
>>Shouldn’t the application of the law be applied in a neutral, fair and unbiased manner?
ffs now recant three years of J6 strike two
>>If a person is guilty of a crime ... That person should be prosecuted for the crime
backwards strike three
Fatfuck is so stupid. No wonder he’s a Marxist.
So the *ONLY* remedy for any crimes that a president may have committed while in office, is for explicitly partisan politicians in the House and Senate to impeach and convict.
Possibly, when it comes to action made using the authority of the President. If he poisons his mistress, that's going to be something of a different quality that doesn't involve an official act of the office.
So the Trump team’s position here, is that the president may only be punished for committing a crime, only if his partisan allies in Congress conclude it’s a crime? That matters of law and justice, as they pertain to the president, may only be decided upon by purely partisan politicians in Congress?
If it's using the power of the Presidency, any attempt to press charges against an ex-President are always going to be political. It's unavoidable. So the argument is that you need sufficient political will in order to prosecute such a crime, of the President's misuse of his authority, because otherwise any act that specific DAs dislike could then be charged as a criminal abuse of authority. In essence, it makes the President subject to the political will of lower offices, which is problematic.
If there's not sufficient political will to secure a conviction on Impeachment, it means that prosecuting the former President for his official acts can be exceedingly divisive, and more harmful to the union than risking that he might get away with a crime. People get away with crimes ALL THE TIME. Any time a guilty person gets acquitted, they "get away" with it. That's not an unacceptable condition of living in our system of justice.
Well, that is an opinion.
Not one I share, nor is there any evidence that it was shared by the Founding Fathers.
Like it or not, the president is in a unique and special position. I like to think that if Biden started murdering people, even the highly partisan house democrats would vote to impeach. If not then things are already too far gone and we're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
I disagree.
If a LieCheatSteal president, as Biden is, the senators of his party would never vote to convict, any more than the OJ jury was.
A Republican president faces far more honest fellow party members in the senate.
The evidence for this is in the last three presidential impeachments, and the threatened one, against Nixon.
In every case, LieCheatSteal senators voted lock-step, while Republicans split on Clinton, and the two Trump trials.
Republicans gave Clinton, even though his guilt was proven, a pass, while not a single LieCheatSteal senator did so for Trump.
The party of Biden is corrupt from top, to bottom, and would give him a pass.
The democrat party has no right to exist. This should be obvious to everyone now.
You’re focused on the remedy when you should be paying attention to the underlying facts. Why should the courts be examining whether his J6 speech was incitement when Congress couldn’t agree that it was?
The law should be neutral. True neutrality would mean these charges were never brought against Trump. The only reason they’re debating this garbage all over again is to impede his ability to campaign. I'm not saying everyone in the justice system is intentionally targeting Trump, but there are enough "I'm just doing my job" types that, once the cases are set into motion, will see them through and refuse to dismiss the charges. Maybe they're just naive or maybe there's a good reason for judges not to question the political nature of certain charges, but this is exactly why Rs are talking about weaponization of the govt and judiciary.
Imagine for a moment an action that is not legally a crime but is morally repugnant. An important person commits this act. The courts can’t address this act because it isn’t on the books. The public debates the act and some people believe it is a crime, but the majority do not. Under what circumstances would it be appropriate for a court to take it upon itself to intervene?
That's what happens when your premise is unfalsifiable.
It's unfalsifiable because it's the truth.
"D.C. Circuit Seems Skeptical of Trump's Alarmingly Broad Presidential Immunity Claim"
First, the word seems is inaccurate.
Second, the headline is too long.
D.C. Circuit Is Skeptical of Trump.
*end edit*
the Is is given 🙂
Sorry, the TDS-addled shit-pill Sullum would see your edit as lacking in TDS.
The hypothetical seems to be exactly the sort of thing impeachment is for. In the extremely unlikely case that such a thing actually happens, and the military actually carries out the order, and congress fails to impeach and remove the president from office, then we have some pretty deep problems that being able to charge a president after he leaves office won't fix.
It seems to me that the constitution is set up so that congress is responsible for deciding if such an act is a proper exercise of presidential power. So if they decline to impeach and remove the president, I'm not convinced that a prosecutor should have the power to second guess congress. I think you just have to trust that in such an extreme (and extremely unlikely) case, congress will do the right thing. And if things are so bad that even that becomes a purely partisan thing, then we're already fucked and probably civil war is inevitable.
In the extremely unlikely case that such a thing actually happens, and the military actually carries out the order, and congress fails to impeach and remove the president from office, then we have some pretty deep problems that being able to charge a president after he leaves office won’t fix.
Yes. This is basically describing a scenario in which we're basically in a civil war, and people are complaining that the Constitution isn't able to prevent a civil war.
So if they decline to impeach and remove the president, I’m not convinced that a prosecutor should have the power to second guess congress.
Not just second-guessing Congress, but also second-guessing the Presidency. It's a huge Separation of Powers issue if the judiciary is able to overrule the legislative and executive branches.
The problem I see with your argument is that impeachment is political and if a President has the political capital he can avoid being removed from office, guilty or not. In a court, the jury decides and we expect the jury to act independently. This is not the case where a President can support your primary opponent or withhold campaign funds. Would you trust a jury verdict if half the jury were employees of the defendant?
Juries in highly political cases will be political too. If a president has so much control of congress that they would vote against impeachment for murdering someone, then they would probably also do what it takes to keep the president in office and become a dictator. There are lots of things that can happen that the Constitution and laws can't prevent if politicians don't take their duty to the Constitution seriously. At that point we are already basically in civil war. Once you have gotten to that point, laws mean nothing.
Of course they will. No Washington DC jury will convict an elite democrat. No matter how guilty they are, and how heinous their crimes. Nor will a DC jury acquit a Republican. No matter how obviously innocent.
Let us know if the penny drops, willya?
So if they decline to impeach and remove the president, I’m not convinced that a prosecutor should have the power to second guess congress.
Impeachment is a political tool, not a legal one. They're deciding whether or not to keep the sonofabitch, or replace him with a new sonofabitch. It's not a criminal trial. Besides, asking Congress to vote and say a fellow politician did something wrong is like letting cops vote on whether or not one of their own did something wrong. It's a very high bar.
Impeachment is a political tool, not a legal one. They’re deciding whether or not to keep the sonofabitch, or replace him with a new sonofabitch. It’s not a criminal trial.
Agreed with this. But tell me, when it concerns acts of the President done using executive powers, how can a criminal prosecution be anything BUT political?
I consider it reasonable, if not ideal, that you must overcome a political threshold before you can move to the legal threshold. Again, limited solely to acts taken under the authority of the presidency, not private actions solely beneficial to the private individual of the President.
But tell me, when it concerns acts of the President done using executive powers, how can a criminal prosecution be anything BUT political?
Was declaring the election fraudulent, and then going on a doomed search to prove fraud existed, and convincing people that it did, was that an exercise of executive authority?
I don’t think so. I think it was sour grapes.
That said, I don’t like the precedent of putting previous administrations on trial.
Everyone involved sucks.
Was declaring the election fraudulent, and then going on a doomed search to prove fraud existed, and convincing people that it did, was that an exercise of executive authority?
Well this turns from the general to the specific. There’s the general claim about whether immunity exists at all, which you dispute, but then you run the specific and then ask if THIS specific thing is an exercise of executive authority.
I’ve been speaking in generalities since I have some questions about the specific acts. Trump’s decision to hold a political rally at the Ellipse on January 6, I would argue, is an action taken for his personal political cause and not an exercise of his presidential powers. There are others who disagree with this.
The extent to which he sought investigations of election fraud claims, even pursuing them over the objections of some of his subordinates like Bill Barr, I believe is entirely within his purview.
There’s a more edge case for when he tried to pressure state authorities into investigating those election fraud claims. I’d argue it still falls under the umbrella of his general authority as the chief executive, including his statement to Raffensberger that he was violating the law if he allowed illegal votes to be counted. I don’t like that level of political infighting as it becomes threatening, but it’s potentially an exercise of presidential authority for which he should have presumptive immunity. I’m fine with others disagreeing over this, in which case he should have been impeached for those comments.
Federal investigations of voting regulations is common action from the executive at this point. Democrats have it as one of their campaign planks and the civil rights division is constantly going after states regarding voting. This has even ramped up under Biden with lawsuits against states like Arizona. Sarcs claims that this type of action isn't regular order under the executive is just ignorant nonsense.
No, asshole. My claim is that declaring an election to be fraudulent, then looking for fraud, then inisting it wasn’t found because it was well hidden, is what crybabies do. Crybabies and their crybaby loser followers.
Well, you certainly could give a master class on being a whiney, crybaby. Couldn’t you, pussy?
Trump’s decision to hold a political rally at the Ellipse on January 6
He was talking about election fraud long before the election, let alone the inauguration. This was a culmination. One rally doesn't mean shit.
I am amused that that is your one take-away from everything I've said.
You claim to not be a Trump fan, but you bend over backwards to defend his supporters.
Do you know what a gish gallop is? Because it's possible you're doing this unintentionally.
Track this single thread I've had with you. You argued that impeachment is purely a political process, then saying it has no bearing on criminal proceedings. I conceded to the first part, then argued that it may be reasonable to have some political barriers in place before proceeding to the criminal threshold, when it comes to acts using executive power.
You then pivoted from the substance of that argument to the specific allegations and asked me to defend if all of them were made under executive ambit. Without going through an exhaustive list of everything Trump has done, I listed essentially one example I thought was NOT, one that I thought WAS, and a third example I thought was more of an edge case.
You then jumped on the one example I listed of a Was Not and attacked me for not making a sufficiently exhaustive list of things I thought Were Not presidential actions, once against changing the thrust of the argument combined with blatant goalpost-shifting.
And then I expressed amusement at how little you'd responded to anything substantive I've actually said (which, it's fine not to respond when you don't have anything to say, but you keep responding anyway despite not addressing anything), and you threw out yet another rhetorical flourish: an ad hominem, essentially accusing me of having wrong opinions because I am X, while additionally misrepresenting myself.
What you've done is continue a discussion-or argument, however you view it-without responding to anything I've offered. Instead, you put forth completely different questions that I've made a solid effort to respond to, before you pivot to something else that is unresponsive to what I've said. This is similar to a rhetorical technique often used in debates that is called a Gish Gallop.
Had to look it up. No, that was not my intention.
I don't dislike you. If that means anything.
Everything is political when it involves high office holders.
Trump fears that it is not.
What we should consider in this context are the precedents regarding qualified immunity.
https://ij.org/issues/project-on-immunity-and-accountability/frequently-asked-questions-about-ending-qualified-immunity/
Yes. Qualified immunity applies even when officials intentionally or recklessly violate the law. The primary consideration in a qualified immunity analysis is whether there is an earlier court case specifically stating that the particular actions of an official are unconstitutional. So, for example, the Ninth Circuit U.S Court of Appeals held that police accused of stealing $225,000 while executing a search warrant were entitled to qualified immunity because that court had “never addressed whether the theft of property covered by the terms of a search warrant…violates the Fourth Amendment.” It did not matter “that virtually every human society teaches that theft generally is morally wrong.”
It appears it applies here.
Qualified immunity applies only to civil cases, not criminal, so the precedent is irrelevant.
The risk we take to have a president free from selective prosecution by partisan hacks (e.g., the entire Democrat party and its subservient local jurisdictions) is the occasional criminal president who might get away with murder. We pay a similar price of lives lost to firearms accidents due to our 2nd amendment freedom. When the hell will the grown-ups get a chance to talk?
Assuming the Constitution allows such a Hobson's choice to be made, who do you propose should make it?
In the case of the 2nd Amendment, the choice has already been precluded by the Constitution--it can only be changed by another amendment.
In the case of the criminal immunity of the President, the Constitution offers no clear instruction. That ordinarily means the Constitution does not prohibit Congress from enacting criminal statutes covering the situation, nor the courts from applying them to the President.
"As one appeals court judge pointed out, Trump's defense could literally let a president get away with murder."
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/10/how-team-obama-justifies-the-killing-of-a-16-year-old-american/264028/
This.
That’s ok because Obama did it first. That’s the Trumpian defense for just about anything. Point at a Democrat and, with lots of emotion, shout “Whatabout…?!?” without James Brown in the background.
Have you even TRIED killing yourself?
Blow me
Care to point out where in that story Team Obama claimed immunity from criminal prosecution?
Wouldn't it be kind of a "good thing" for Presidents (including Obama) to risk criminal prosecution for committing crimes? We're not talking about "international law" here; we're talking about good ol' US American law.
On the other hand, you never know when you might prefer to have a US President commit common crimes in your name...
Forget Trump for a moment.
As a general question, suppose a president commits a serious crime that is not an official act. He isn't impeached. Can he be tried once he's no longer in office?
It should be obvious that the answer is "yes".
Whether in any particular case there is enough evidence to convict - assuming enough evidence to indict - is a separate matter.
Agreed with all of the above. But there is presently no answer whether any immunity exists at all when it comes to official acts, using the power of the presidency. The Supreme Court needs to weigh in on this since it's a significant federal question.
But that's not how the Constitution works, is it.
Everything isn't "unconstitutional" until the Constitution (or the Supreme Court) declares it constitutional.
Why does everyone assume that if the President murdered someone then the Senate would convict? Trump did an attempted coup in broad daylight and that was not enough.
We assume that because we're not fucking morons like you.
Just because you say a word doesn't mean you used the word correctly. For examples you can look at sarcs average post.
There was no coup you dumb cunt. But you amd your faggot friends keep it up and you might just see what a full on anti communist revolution looks like. Can only imagine your terror and disbelief as you’re burned at the stake
As noted, McConnell's view was that as Trump was not going to remain president, there was no need to impeach - leave it to the courts. It turns out that it would have been convenient if he had been impeached because then Trump would inarguably be ineligible to run again.
According to Trump's lawyers, a former president can be prosecuted for "official acts," which would include his orders to a military unit like SEAL Team Six, only if he is first impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate based on the same underlying conduct.
Yes. Sorry, I don't see what's alarming about that.
To the contrary, the current abuse of judicial powers by Democrats demonstrates clearly why this is necessary.
Impeachment is how you remove someone from office. It doesn’t come with any criminal penalties. It’s purely political.
What Trump’s lawyers are arguing is that he can’t be prosecuted for being a crybaby who couldn’t stand losing the election and then used federal resources to search for evidence of fraud that didn’t exist, because it was an official act. I say bull to both.
Everyone involved is an asshole.
Ya know like those YEARS and YEARS and YEARS about Trump and Russia collusion "federal resources"? That never existed either?
I'd say any non-partisan psycho would have to admit Hillary used up far more resources than Trump ever did while Hillary's claim was so stupid - facebook ads? WTF? And Trumps was far more legitimate; mystery after-hours votes taking his lead away.
Sarcasmic has a pathological hatred of Trump. Exacerbated by decades of severe alcoholism. He isn’t capable of logic.
mystery after-hours votes taking his lead away.
No mystery. In some Republican states, notably in PA, in-person ballots were required to be counted before mail-in ballots – the reason being that as GOP voters were encouraged to vote in person, counting votes like this would result in a later swing to Biden, which would look suspicious to the ignorant or soft-headed.
Interesting how you, who so often rails against government, is suddenly so willing to accept government violence – presumably because arguing this way benefits Trump.
The only government violence going on is to witch-hunt Trump. Do you really believe elections are made by how voters are encouraged to vote? That's pretty dumb especially when the very validating excuse for allowing mail-voting was that it aligned with in-person to begin with ... until one day it didn't ... not at all.
And you'll attempt to excuse that all as just 'encouragement'??? What a joke.
You can't impose a requirement not supported by the law because you find it politically convenient.
It's you and the Democrats who are arguing that the law should be changed. The status quo is that the president is immune from prosecution for official acts.
There is no presidential criminal immunity law to be "changed".
Trump wants the Supreme Court to create it for him.
I'm still trying to figure out what the 'crime' was.
The mob and it's pitch-forks are literally playing "who's the witch" crimes.
Well until Biden is sacrificed in front of the Nazi-Gods for holding classified documents and Hillary is sacrificed in front of the Nazi-Gods for claiming election fraud … apparently Presidents and Wanna-be Presidents do get away with murder!!! /s
What a stupid remark from a judge.
Official actions taken by a President during their presidency should be immune to direct prosecution. This would include every single official act regardless of how atrocious they are.
The proper avenue for holding a President to account is through impeachment, where the House and Senate decide. If a President is convicted, then the normal Judicial options would be allowed. Impeachment can occur after their presidency as demonstrated by the second impeachment trial of Trump.
The reasoning for this is the political mayhem that would unfold where every state could charge a sitting or retired president for official actions.
For example, Obama could be impeached for the intentional killing of a US Citizen on foreign territory. Should a State where the person is from be able to directly charge Obama, or should the murder be first deliberated by the Congress? Personally, I believe that Obama was in the wrong, but I also don't believe that he should be imprisoned.
FYI, Trump's second impeachment occurred on January 13, 2021, while he was still President; no president has been impeached after they have left office. (The Senate hearing took place later.)
I have no problem exposing the President to criminal prosecution, any more than I have with exposing the police to criminal prosecution, should any of them commit criminal acts while in office. There are always "reasons" why doing so would supposedly bring the end of the Republic, but most of them are just bullshit.
"...Trump's Alarmingly Broad...
Notice the TDS-addled shit pile Sullum attempts at poisoning the well.
Trump's lawyers should have rejected the premise outright. Under what circumstance would a sitting president order an assassination of a rival, actually manage to pull it off, and avoid impeachment? This stupid scenario assumes a highly immoral supermajority in every aspect of governance and society and is impossible to achieve in our existing system of government. If the general population actually becomes so one-sided that they elect this supermajority capable of unspeakable acts, I'm sorry, but no system of government can prevent that kind of mass imposition of will. America has been one of the few success stories of protecting minority rights. Most societies fail and societies ruled by minorities are typically overthrown by the majority.
This stupid hypothetical is also failing to see the forest because of the trees. The basis of the argument is not that impeachment be an absolute standard to violate immunity, but to raise questions about incongruities between political and legal processes. The insurrection argument is not settled science. It is a very political argument and one that did not pass muster. If there's enough context to fail to impeach, how could there possibly be enough factual clarity to suggest that criminal punishment is more appropriate? These absurd cases should have been dismissed at first sight.
In this case the Judges may be trying to establish “boundary” examples in a logical and debate context, testing a questionable theory being advanced by legal counsel. However, in this context setting too many assumptions at that “boundary” may undermine the logical question by arbitrarily missing the point and making the judges look silly. Presidents do indeed "order the deaths" of people as part of their official capacities as Commander in Chief, and they have unqualified and qualified immunity while doing so.
Although it’s probably wise for a legislature to consider hypotheticals when crafting and debating proposed laws, hypotheticals do not themselves make for good laws. Laws should be based upon overriding social necessity in order to protect the individual rights of the people from encroachment or violation by other people, especially including official people. “Getting away with murder” may be an interesting legal “boundary” question but it is not even remotely similar to “calling another official to ask for a ballot recount” or even “putting pressure on another official” when considering official immunity. Nice spin, guys, but definitely a “swing and a miss” here.
For example: "We should pass a law banning dangerous narcotics because their abuse could have significant social and economic costs and harm families" is a truly terrible basis for imposing a law. On the other hand, "We should pass a law defining and imposing punishment for committing murder because government must defend each person's right to life." This would be an example of an overriding function of government to protect fundamental rights under the law.
In a last ditch effort to bring transparency and integrity to the 2020 election President Trump encouraged a crowd of Americans to peacefully raise their voices in support of Congress giving the states a 10 day emergency audit of the irregularities and questionable decisions regarding election laws to ensure the candidate with the right to take office did so and the public would have more trust in the election. The left and their fake news media refusal to admit the truth and reality of the real opposition by those coming from the rally to violence or entering the Capitol to further the narrative of the left is disgusting. Those responsible for starting the violence and entering the Capitol were not there to stop the transfer of power but to stop Congress from voting on the proposal of a 10 day emergency audit supported by over 150 members of Congress. What Trump and those opposed to fraudulent elections wanted was for Pence to agree to sending it back to the states and allowing them to audit their results to ensure a transparent and accurate count all Americans could then trust. Anyone weak minded enough to believe the lie he was trying to take over the country and stay in office or encouraged violence are sheep that have lost the ability to think and reason.
For those willing to search, the truth is recorded of what actually happened on Jan. 6th by real journalist such as Tayler Hansen and others.