7 Reasons Trump's Lawyers Say He Is Not Disqualified From Running for President
His Supreme Court petition raises serious questions about how to interpret and apply Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.

In a petition filed on Wednesday, Donald Trump's lawyers ask the U.S. Supreme Court to reverse the Colorado Supreme Court's determination that he is disqualified from that state's presidential primary ballot because he "engaged in insurrection" by inciting the January 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol. The petition suggests several plausible reasons for rejecting that attempt to enforce Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which was originally aimed at preventing former Confederates from returning to public office after the Civil War.
Section 3 says: "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
UCLA election law expert Richard Hasen describes Trump's petition as "a strong legal document" that "raises some serious, difficult questions" about how to interpret and apply that language. Here are seven of those questions:
1. Is Section 3 self-executing?
Under Section 5 of the 14th Amendment, "the Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." But the Colorado Supreme Court concluded that Section 3 is "enforceable as a constitutional disqualification without implementing legislation from Congress." In an influential 2023 law review article, University of Chicago law professor William Baude and University of St. Thomas law professor Michael Stokes Paulsen reach the same conclusion. While Congress could pass legislation to enforce Section 3, they say, that does not mean the provision has no effect without such legislation.
That interpretation seems consistent with the second sentence of Section 3, which says Congress can "remove such disability," implying that the disqualification is otherwise automatic. But Congress did enact legislation aimed at enforcing Section 3 against former Confederates during Reconstruction, although it later approved broad amnesties that removed those disabilities. Dissenting Colorado Supreme Court Justice Carlos A. Samour Jr. argued that Section 3 is not self-executing, citing Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase's 1869 opinion to that effect.
The Colorado Republican State Central Committee (CRSCC), in its own Supreme Court petition, argues that "Congress, and Congress alone, can enforce Section Three." It says the only plausibly relevant current statute is 18 USC 2383, which makes insurrection a federal crime and adds that anyone convicted of it "shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." But as the CRSCC notes, Trump "has not been indicted under Section 2383, let alone tried and convicted," which it says "would be required to trigger application of Section Three."
Trump's petition says that argument is "worthy of consideration" by the Supreme Court. But "even if section 3 does not require enforcement legislation to have effect," his lawyers say, "the lack of such legislation deprives the courts of judicially manageable standards." Echoing a concern that Samour raised, they note that the 14th Amendment does not say who has the authority to determine whether a candidate is disqualified under Section 3 or what standard of proof should apply. "The terms 'engage' and 'insurrection' are unclear and subject to wildly varying standards," they say. "The result is that 51 different jurisdictions may (and have) adopted divergent rulings based on different standards on the same set of operative facts."
2. Is the presidency a civil office "under the United States"?
Although the answer might seem obvious, Section 3 specifically mentions senators, representatives, and presidential electors but not the head of the executive branch, who you might think would have been at the top of the list if that position was supposed to be included. "To find that section 3 includes the presidency, one must conclude that the drafters decided to bury the most visible and prominent national office in a catch-all term that includes low ranking military officers, while choosing to explicitly reference presidential electors," Trump's petition says. "This reading defies common sense."
University of Richmond law professor Kurt Lash makes the same point. "It would be odd to stuff the highest office in the land into a general provision that included everything from postmasters to toll takers," he writes. "At best," he argues, "the text of Section 3 is ambiguous regarding the office of president."
The original draft of Section 3 did specifically mention the president and the vice president, but those references were ultimately removed. Although that change seems like evidence that Section 3 does not cover the presidency or the vice presidency, the Colorado Supreme Court cited an exchange between two senators that suggests otherwise.
The revised Section 3 "does not go far enough" because ex-Confederates "may be elected President or Vice President of the United States," Sen. Reverdy Johnson (D–Md.) complained during the congressional debate over the 14th Amendment. "Why did you omit to exclude them?" Sen. Lot Morrill (R–Maine) reassured Johnson: "Let me call the Senator's attention to the words 'or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States.'" Johnson conceded that "perhaps I am wrong as to the exclusion from the presidency," adding, "no doubt I am," but "I was misled by noticing the specific exclusion in the case of senators and representatives."
3. Is the president "an officer of the United States"?
That phrase refers to the prior status of someone disqualified under Section 3. Again, it may seem obvious that the category includes the president. But Trump's lawyers note that "the phrase 'officer of the United States' appears in three constitutional provisions apart from section 3, and in each of these constitutional provisions the president is excluded from the meaning of this phrase."
The Appointments Clause "requires the president to appoint ambassadors, public ministers and consuls, justices of the Supreme Court, and 'all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law.'" The Commissions Clause "requires the President to 'Commission all the Officers of the United States.'" Since the president "does not (and cannot) appoint or commission himself," Trump's lawyers argue, those clauses imply that the president is not "an officer of the United States" under the Constitution.
Similarly, the Impeachments Clause says "the President, Vice President and all civil
officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." Trump's lawyers say that language likewise suggests Trump was not "an officer of the United States" when he served as president.
4. Did Trump take an oath to "support the Constitution"?
That language tracks with the oaths taken by members of Congress, state legislators, and "all executive and judicial officers," as specified in Article VI. But the presidential oath, described in Article II, is worded differently, requiring the oath taker to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitution. The Colorado Supreme Court thought that amounted to pretty much the same thing, saying "the language of the presidential oath" is "consistent with the plain meaning of the word 'support.'" But Trump's lawyers argue that the difference in wording underlines the distinction between the president and other government officials. "The drafters of section 3 had before them both the Article VI and Article II oaths," they say, "and they chose to apply section 3 only to those who took Article VI oaths."
5. Was the Capitol riot an "insurrection"?
Two weeks after the riot, Indiana University law professor Gerard Magliocca, who in 2020 wrote "the first scholarly account" of Section 3, said he was "unable to find any particularly helpful authority" on the question of what counts as an "insurrection." In the 1860s and 1870s, he noted, "everyone understood that the insurrection in question was the Confederacy, and no thought was given to what other insurrections might look like."
Magliocca nevertheless thought the Capitol riot could plausibly be described as an insurrection, since "the mob was seeking to halt or overturn a core constitutional function at the seat of government, which can reasonably be described as an attempt to replace law with force." More recently, he has taken a firmer stance, telling Boston's NPR station, "I think that January 6 constitutes an insurrection within the meaning of Section 3."
Trump's lawyers unsurprisingly take a different view. Given the historical context, they say, "'insurrection' as understood at the time of the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment meant the taking up of arms and waging war upon the United States." That is notably different, they argue, from what happened at the U.S. Capitol in 2021 or from what happened the previous year in Portland, Oregon, where "violent protestors targeted the federal courthouse…for over 50 days, repeatedly assaulted federal officers and set fire to the courthouse, all in support of a purported political agenda opposed to the authority of the United States." Such incidents, they say, reflect "a long history of political protests that have turned violent," which are a far cry from what Section 3's framers had in mind.
6. Did Trump "engage in" an "insurrection"?
"I think that former President Trump engaged in insurrection before and on January 6," Magliocca says. So do Baude and Paulsen, who make an originalist case for a broad reading of Section 3 that they say clearly covers Trump's conduct.
In reaching the same conclusion, the Colorado Supreme Court relied heavily on the final report from the House select committee that investigated the riot and the testimony of Chapman University sociologist Peter Simi. Simi opined that Trump "developed and employed a coded language based in doublespeak that was understood between himself and far-right extremists, while maintaining a claim to ambiguity among a wider audience."
Since Trump was speaking in code when he gave his inflammatory pre-riot speech at the Ellipse, the court reasoned, divining his intent requires going beyond the surface meaning of his words. He may have talked about "peacefully and patriotically" marching on the Capitol, the majority said, but "his violent supporters" knew what he really meant. And when he urged them to "fight like hell," they knew he meant that literally.
As Trump's lawyers note, Simi's testimony was based solely on the January 6 committee's report and his interpretation of Trump's public speeches. Simi conceded that he was not in a position to say what was "in President Trump's mind" when he gave his speech at the Ellipse. When asked whether he had "evidence that it was President Trump's intention to call them to action," Simi replied that his testimony "is not addressing that issue." Yet "the district court used Simi's testimony to support its factual finding that President Trump intended to incite violence," Trump's petition notes, and the Colorado Supreme Court agreed with that conclusion.
7. Is Section 3 a bar to running for office?
Baude and Paulsen argue that Section 3 "can and should be enforced by every official, state or federal, who judges qualifications" of political candidates. In this case, they say, that means all of those officials have a duty to exclude Trump from the ballot. But Trump's lawyers argue that Section 3 "merely bars individuals from holding office, not from seeking or winning election to office." They note that "Congress can remove a section 3 disqualification at any time," which means it could "remove that disability after a candidate is elected but before his term begins."
These complications might make you wonder whether Trump's opponents are relying on the wrong amendment to stop him from running for president again. Given his continued insistence that he actually won reelection in 2020, the 22nd Amendment seems more promising.
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"His Supreme Court petition raises serious questions about how to interpret and apply Section 3 of the 14th Amendment."
Well, was Trump in the Army of the Confederate States of America?
Has Trump been convicted of treason or insurrection?
Is there a section 5 that says congress will say how to interpret and apply section 3 (and all the rest of 14)?
Has Trump been convicted of treason or insurrection?
Forget convicted, has he even been charged with treason or insurrection? He's been indicted on like a hundred charges, and not one of them is for "insurrection".
It is up to the states to deal with election issues, including this one. If you believe in state's rights, you cannot abrogate the Constitution and rule that the states do not the authority to determine the facts of the case.
Well this a dumb comment from someone who doesn't understand the basics of our civic system.
States choose means and manner of elections, not qualifications for candidates at the federal level.
The conservative justices in Thornton were right. States can choose to add qualifications for representatives and senators.
States cannot add qualifications for the presidency as such, but can limit the choice of electors to persons who indicate a preference for a certain candidate or a candidate who meets specific qualifications. Imagine if a state legislature decided to choose for itself and limit consideration to persons 45 years of age and under 75. If they could do that for an election held entirely within the Statehouse, they can do it for an election held throughout the state. The election of electors is a state election.
I see this is the new narrative going out from those desperate to disallow voters choice.
They can LIMIT the number if candidates in the ballot. They cannot DISQUALIFY a candidate in a ballot for reasons not uniform to their process. Trump has met all conditions to appear on the ballots in Maine and Colorado.
Do you want to try again?
Keener minds than ours say Trump does NOT qualify. If Trump isn't an insurrectionist I have to ask What is he? What was "Stop the Steal" all about? Also, is the 14th section 3 meaningless? Do we have to have another Civil War for it to apply?
"If Trump isn't an insurrectionist I have to ask 'What is he?'"
An American citizen exercising his Constitutional right to petition the government for redress of grievances?
The 14th does not give states the power to enforce its provisions.
No, it clearly is not. And I'll tell you why.
Imagine the Supreme Court just declined to hear this case. Trump is considered disqualified in Colorado and Maine. They don't hold him as an eligible candidate. Imagine a few other states join in, like California, Oregon, New York, whatever.
Then imagine Trump wins enough electoral votes to be elected President. What then? You've got 5 states saying that he cannot be President, while he's been elected as President. Does that mean he's not the President of the other 5 states?
Of course it doesn't mean that. Their decision to disqualify him doesn't make him not the President because the states don't have the power to disqualify him. He would still become the President. Which means they don't have the power to rule that he's disqualified. The power to disqualify him clearly exists, but it does not exist at the state level.
That's a good line of thought. If it's Colorado's opinion or ruling that Trump is disqualified from the Presidency, does that mean if Trump wins not withstanding, Trump will the President of the United States. -Minus the State of Colorado.
Isn't Colorado saying that he can't be on their primary ballot, not that he can't be president? I know in effect they don't want him to be and this puts a big hurt on his chances, but can the Pubs there just nominate him anyway. Or what about getting enough signatures to be put on the general election ballot or a strong write-in campaign?
Isn’t Colorado saying that he can’t be on their primary ballot, not that he can’t be president?
Short answer: no.
The reason they're saying he can't be on the ballot is because they're claiming he's ineligible to be President. The disqualification wouldn't disappear if he secured a nomination as the primary candidate because they're arguing that he's not a qualified presidential candidate. Their entire justification in removing him from the ballot is that, if a voter were to vote for him, they'd be disenfranchised because he cannot serve in the office. Which means they have to come to the determination that he's not a qualified candidate.
But as I've said, that's clearly not something states have the power to determine.
Now, if he were to somehow get enough write-in votes to win in the state, would those votes be counted? According to the authority Colorado is claiming, they shouldn't be. But would they? I can't know, and I'm not sure if they know. Which is a big problem.
States can't impose term limits on their reps or senators.
This has been adjudicated before, there is no reason to believe that an exemption exists for the presidency.
Has ANYONE been charged with treason or insurrection? At least in the context of J6.
I'm sure Jefferson Davis did something on so Jan 6
I wonder how he got out of his coffin?
Yes. He was indicted by the House in the 2nd impeachment for insurrection but was aquited. The Congress was the correct venue for all of this and the impeachment should have been the final word on the matter after the acquittal (criminal charges could follow if found guilty but moot here).
That's how I see it anyway.
You Trump Nazis make no sense. You should all be deported or incarcerated. Traitors and terrorists.
Trump is GUILTY of inciting a insurrection. This is the inconvenient TRUTH for Trump Nazis who cannot handle the TRUTH. There are so many twisted sick irrational and illogical rants here it isn't even funny
Trump is a traitor and a terrorist who should have been impeached and convicted and executed years ago. TRUTH
Now let's do an article titled "One reason the constitution says Trump is not disqualified from running for president."
Thats easy, he is over the age of 35, he is a natural born citizen, and he has lived in the United States for more than 14 years. So he qualifies. If they can remove trump from the ballot for his actions, they (meaning Republicans OR Democrats) they can remove any political adversary from a ballot. Almost every single politician in Washington has said "fight like hell" in reference to their political adversary. The fact the he specifically said to go there and peacefully protest voids any claim of him being guilty of insurrection. Which by the way insurrection is understood to be to have engaged in violence. He has never, himself, engaged in nor called for violence against the government nor his political adversaries (democrats).
Almost every single politician in Washington has said “fight like hell” in reference to their political adversary. The fact the he specifically said to go there and peacefully protest voids any claim of him being guilty of insurrection.
Trump's role in Jan. 6 extends beyond his speech on that day - it includes the sum total of his words and actions over several months prior, claiming that the election was stolen from him. After all, if he hadn't continued to insist for months and months that the election was stolen, there wouldn't have been a protest on Jan. 6 at all.
Trump went way too far in his 'stop the steal' nonsense, creating in the minds of his supporters the perception (that persists to this day) that the Electoral College vote counting on Jan. 6 represented the Democrats "getting away with" their theft of the election.
So Trump and his idiot lawyers spend months and months creating this fear that the Democrats are committing the greatest electoral theft in the history of the nation. So one throwaway line of "protest patriotically and peacefully" doesn't really cut it. That is where the plausible deniability argument comes in. If you *really thought* that a theft of historic proportions was underway, and that the fate of the nation literally hung in the balance, how would violence as a last resort NOT be justified?
If you *really thought* that a theft of historic proportions was underway, and that the fate of the nation literally hung in the balance, how would violence as a last resort NOT be justified?
See what happens if enough people vote against Trump in the next election.
Well yeah. Because if/when Trump loses again, he is going to act even MORE irresponsibly as he did last time, and his supporters will conclude that they have nothing to lose by going for broke.
And your evidence for this is? Please remember to provide links and citations.
Bald assertions are all jeff and sarc demand from themselves. That is not true of anyone else.
It's a prediction. Fuck off troll.
iT's a prEdiCtiON.
It’s projection of what leftist WILL 100% do if he wins. Just as they’ve done every time they haven’t gotten their way since Bush the Lesser won.
lol right. Just like Biden was going to impose the AOC Green New Deal and the FBI was taking parents protesting at school board meetings off to the gulag, right?
Trump’s election outburst in 2020 demonstrated that your team really does think that you are entitled to win. you don’t really think that any election in which The Left wins is a legitimate one, do you? Not anymore, right? Your team’s pretty much given up on the whole concept of pluralism. It’s either “Trump wins” or “Trump was robbed”, those are the only two possible outcomes in 2024 from your team
Wray targeted parents over OTA meetings. It’s documented you fat fuck.
You’re the troll, you morbidly obese groomer pig.
Get real You are a joke
"See what happens if enough people vote against Trump in the next election."
See what happens if enough people vote FOR Trump in the next election. Remember, there were riots at his inauguration, and every year he was President.
The shocking thing about January 6th was finding out that it wasn't just Democrats who could riot and break into the Capitol. Democrats have been doing it for years.
See what happens if enough people vote against Trump in the next election.
What will happen? On January 20th, 2021, the right did not riot as Joe Biden was installed.
The left DID riot on January 20th 2017– well, they KEPT ON rioting. They started rioting when Trump was elected and rioted continuously, albeit sporadically, since.
Based on the severity of the left’s perpetuariot, what happened on January 6th 2021 doesn’t even register.
So, you've read the minds of Donald Trump and his close advisors to know his intentions and to interpret the supposed secret code he was using to speak to his followers?
Or are you just full of shit.
Being as it's Jeffy, I'd go with the "full of shit".
I've made a reasonable inference. If you really thought that the opposition was committing an electoral theft of historic proportions, and the fate of the country hung in the balance, and all of the nonviolent peaceful options to stop the theft (recounts, lawsuits, pleading with Pence) have failed, and if there was one final chance to stop the theft at Congress, why would you not consider *all available means* to stop this theft? The way Trump himself framed the issue, he said to "fight like hell" and that if you don't fight, "you won't have a country anymore".
And his code is not all that secret. He does this sort of thing all the time - make his clear intentions known, but add a throwaway line for plausible deniability. He does this with immigration and the wall - he will go on and on about how the 'illegals' are invaders, they are vermin, they are poisoning the nation, we need to build a wall, etc., etc., but then he will pose with a can of Goya food, or say he wants a big wide gate in the wall, to somehow prove that he loves Mexicans or something. You have to look at the sum total of his words and deeds, not just one line about 'patriotically and peacefully' protest.
This is not some attack on Trump, it is the usual standard that most of us normally apply to everyone in positions of power. What makes Trump's supporters most upset is that people like me don't give Trump the infinite benefit of the doubt.
What makes Trump’s supporters most upset is that people like me don’t give Trump the infinite benefit of the doubt.
News flash there, Jeffy, most people here on this comment section don't give Trump the infinite benefit of the doubt. Most of us don't give the Democrats or postmodernists the infinite benefit of the doubt either, unlike a few certain commenters, including the one I'm currently replying to.
Oh give me a fucking break. Nearly every time someone raises a criticism of Trump, we are met with an avalanche of defenses, justifications, rationalizations, and whataboutisms. Even for actions that he took that were shamelessly and horribly wrong. Even from those people who claim not to be Trump cultists. Why is it that the supposed non-cultists do this?
For example: Can you state with a clean conscience, clearly and unambiguously, that it was wrong for Trump to accuse illegal immigrants of "poisoning the blood" of the country? It's wrong to compare them to vermin? It's wrong to use such vile and dehumanizing language against an entire class of people, and that it's wrong for Trump to do this regardless of what Biden or Obama or Hillary or anyone else may have said or done?
Can you do that? I predict you can't. I predict you are going to defend his comments by deflecting, whataboutisms, rationalizations, or just plain trolling. But you won't ever get to criticizing or condemning his comments. And yet you'll insist that you're not in the tank for Trump. If you cannot condemn something as vile as that speech, why SHOULDN'T we all consider you just another pro-Trump cultist?
If you cannot condemn something as vile as political prosecution, why SHOULDN’T we all consider you just another Nazi?
He is not a nazi. He advocates for global social totalitarianism, not national social totalitarianism. Seriously get your terms right
Edit, for the record I didn't have to unmute the gry box to know it was Chem Jeff.
Also, Trump said nothing wrong and was far less hate-filled than your sociopaths who rant about "Bitter Clingers", "White Garbage" and "Deplorables".
The rank hypocrisy of Crimejeff here is astonishing.
Oh look here's ML again to call me a Nazi yet again. Yawn.
If the jackboot fits.
lol, here's another non-Trump-cultist who can't bring himself to even criticize some of Trump's horrible speech
"It’s wrong to compare them to vermin?"
Well let's see, they are destroying the places they've been put in, consuming resources of the locals, are unwanted by said locals, and are carrying diseases. Vermin seems to apply.
Now as for poisoning the blood, well there is plenty of drug trafficking going on at the border and we all know how bad that stuff is for you.
Gee what a shock. The people who insist that they aren't Trump cultists are rushing to defend even Trump's most vile speech.
Yes Jeff, mean words hurt more than anything else.
If the words are so meaningless, then it costs nothing to say that they were wrong. Why can't you do even that?
Because it's more fun this way.
You’re disingenuous cunt, who twists Trump’s statements to portray them in a false context. Something you frequently do, and not in any way limited to Trump.
You’re so dishonest at every level. And you’re who,e tantrum here is because Trump won’t give you the open borders bullshit with which you’re so obsessed.
Everyone here knows that, and this is part of why we treat you like shit. Because you are shit. Now fuck off.
For example: Can you state with a clean conscience, clearly and unambiguously, that it was wrong for Trump to accuse illegal immigrants of “poisoning the blood” of the country? It’s wrong to compare them to vermin? It’s wrong to use such vile and dehumanizing language against an entire class of people,
No.
Because he's right.
People who break into our country with the intent of taking what it has to offer without permission ARE vermin. The ARE poisoning the blood and soul of this country.
I will criticize him when he is wrong in MY estimation, not when he's offended YOUR leftist ideals. I WANT him to revile you and all you hold dear.
He was wrong to cave to Fauci. And we all said so. He is wrong now when he still touts the vaccine. And we all say so. We castigated him about Bolton.
You're just upset that we don't join you in your fever dreams and castigate him for whatever your current delusions are.
Trump Country is racist terrorist treasonous reason less insane irrational illogical and NAZI
Jeff gives the left and the state all the benefit of the doubt. Notice how he switched the burden of claims onto the defendant in his cries. Prove your innocence he demands!
So... full of shit it is.
Would that be like the time you said not wearing a mask (that doesn't work) is the same as driving with a bear in your trunk?
I bet he has a double bear-reld trunk
Hey, at least we found the outer bounds of how much benefit of the doubt you’ll give to someone in the government class.
“….*all available means*.. “
Explains why they brought all those weapons. Lol.
You’re a joke.
Dude, the j6ers wer like MacGyver. With the podium and microphone, they could have assembled that to give a speech!
But how does any of that constitute insurrection against the US government? Even if it was wrong and stupid, it's still all protected by the first amendment.
I am not convinced that it was "insurrection".
That and 5 bucks will get you a coffee at Starbucks.
You must live in a red state
It is an insurrection . TRUTH HURTS. HUH?
“creating in the minds of his supporters the perception”
It does not matter what you say after this phrase because it will automatically be false. It is impossible for any human to “create” anything in the mind of any other human. It’s just this kind of garbage concept that has gotten politics and law and social discourse in general into the sorry shape it’s currently in. Either you realize that each person is personally responsible for xer own opinions and actions, or you believe in fantasies, fairytales, social justice narratives and propaganda and brain washing.
It also completely ignores the fact that not everyone then or now is a “Trump Supporter” just because they thought/think the election was suspect.
Oh AND it robs everyone of their agency, which isn’t something you’d expect from a “radical individualist”.
After all, if he hadn’t continued to insist for months and months that the election was stolen, there wouldn’t have been a protest on Jan. 6 at all.
Fuck you. Everyone is allowed to have a protest. Even over really stupid, inane shit. Neo-Nazi fuckwits can organize a protest march over a decision to ban the swastika from flying over the Capitol, if they want. The First Amendment is not limited to "causes we find acceptable."
Yes, he's allowed to have a protest. But if Trump was a decent human being, and not an asshole demagogue, he would have conceded the election long before Jan. 6 and not staged a rally to protest an election that he lost. That is my point.
So you believe that the 2020 election was 100% clean and above board. Not a single states results can be questioned in any way. There was zero corruption at every level.
Do you believe the same about the 2016 election?
No, I don't think the 2020 election was 100% clean. There is a difference between "the election wasn't 100% clean" and "the election was stolen". Trump made his case and filed his lawsuits. He had every right to do so, and I for one never criticized him just for exercising his right to have his day in court. But when all the cases were settled and he still lost, that is when Trump should have conceded, if he was a decent human being. That is what Hillary did, that is what Gore did.
Gore's phrase in 2000 was, "I accept the finality of the outcome." He didn't say "yup, SCOTUS's ruling was 100% legit", he didn't say "yup, Florida ran their election perfectly". He clearly thought he was cheated out of victory but he did not press any further because that would have done more harm than good. And now we see the harm that was unleashed.
Then you admit there was some level of corruption. What we disagree on is how corrupt was the election and how corrupt were the people who tried to sell us on a totally clean election.
I say the election was very corrupt, because I don't trust government or media. You say not very corrupt because clearly you trust government and media.
I say the election was mostly free and fair, based on the evidence presented to date. It's not about trust, it's about evidence.
The evidence presented so far seem to indicate an election that was a bit unusual because of COVID and the expansion of mail-in voting, but not so drastically unusual. The discrepancies that have been typically raised can be easily explained without resorting to a fraud motive, and most importantly, those with the most to benefit from overturning the election have spent considerable resources trying to find evidence of fraud and they have come up with very little. That's why.
I say the election was mostly free and fair,
There is no such thing.
It is free, and fair, or it is not.
When you add 'mostly' to that sentence you are saying that the election was NOT free or fair.
Your insane
Pedo Jeffy believes whatever will put leftist open borders Marxists in power. He is patently dishonest to his morbidly obese core. Always has been.
Yes, he’s allowed to have a protest. But if Trump was a decent human being, and not an asshole demagogue, he would have conceded the election long before Jan. 6 and not staged a rally to protest an election that he lost. That is my point.
So how does this disqualify him from being President again, if he was just exercising his 1st Amendment Rights?
An idiot could run for any public office and say a lot of stupid shit. The remedy for this is not disqualifying the idiot, it's voting for someone other than the idiot.
I thought this was clear, but maybe not:
If Trump was a decent human being, he would have conceded the election long before Jan. 6, there would not have been any protest on Jan. 6 because there would have been no point, there wouldn't have been a riot, no one would even be talking about 'insurrection', and this 14th Amendment issue regarding Trump would never have been raised.
So I take it that your position is that he shouldn't be disqualified because he didn't incite or engage in an insurrection?
How is this in any way responsive to what I wrote above?
It's almost as if you have to decide what "team" I'm on before you decide how to respond to me.
I’m trying to sort out the twisted knot of logic you’re using. You said he staged a protest, which is within his rights, and yet you condemned him and said he’s wrong to have had his protest. That’s just a tertiary point-if you don’t like the protest, it’s a great reason to vote against him, not to prevent ANYONE from being able to vote for him.
So if you think he was just exercising constitutionally protected rights in furtherance of a goal you find abhorrent, how can you consider him disqualified? I certainly don’t think holding a protest at the capitol on January 6 was a good idea, it’s not something I would have done in his position, and I don’t intend to vote for him in the future. I don’t think that disqualifies him from being the President, however. It just means I disagree with him in the way I disagree with Biden.
And if you think it’s okay to rob someone of their rights for their exercise of free speech and right to seek redress of grievances, I go back to my first words: fuck you.
Look. One more time.
The only reason we are even having a discussion right now about Trump and 14th Amendment Section 3 is because of the riot on Jan. 6.
The riot on Jan. 6 happened because Trump decided to organize a rally on that day.
Trump decided to organize a rally on that day because he was continuing to push his grievances about a 'stolen election', when a DECENT HUMAN BEING would have conceded the election instead, and never have decided to hold a rally on that day to protest an election that he lost.
So no, I am not saying that because he chose to hold a rally, he should be disqualified.
What I am saying, is that because he pushed a stolen election narrative for months and months, which culminated in the fateful riot on Jan. 6, that is why we are even having a discussion about Section 3. Had he chosen to act with even a tiny amount of grace and concede, we would be living in an alternate timeline instead where most of us would only be dimly aware about Section 3 and nobody would be pursuing Trump being disqualified based on Section 3.
So all the undercover fbi agentss and CI’s in the crowd agitating for violence wasn’t a factor? And of course we’re talking about maybe a few hundred people out of over 100k people there for the rally.
Of course Trump never told anyone to commit acts of violence. Quite the contrary, unlike the previous four years of elected democrats who DID call for violent confrontation.
But then, you always have been a massive hypocrite, right Fatfuck?
What I am saying, is that because he pushed a stolen election narrative for months and months, which culminated in the fateful riot on Jan. 6, that is why we are even having a discussion about Section 3. Had he chosen to act with even a tiny amount of grace and concede, we would be living in an alternate timeline instead where most of us would only be dimly aware about Section 3 and nobody would be pursuing Trump being disqualified based on Section 3.
Oh, this is rich. Pushing a stolen election narrative magically causes people to riot.
Can you imagine this idea being applied to, say, "Hands Up, Don't Shoot"?
So he has no right to voice his grievances if it runs counter to you, got it. No civil rights unless you agree with Jeff and the marxist Leftists.
Not what I said. Fuck off with your trolling.
You are insane
You sure put a l;ot of magic power in words. Thart mere words can somehow cause people to riot.
Have you ever thought about how your argumentds would apply to other people, such as Patrice Cullors, Nikole Hannah-Jones, and Charles M. Blow?
Oh it wasn't Trump's words alone. It was his words, combined with his position of authority, his position of being basically the only high government official that most Republicans trusted, and the right-wing media ecosystem which amplified Trump's stolen election narrative.
In the military, commanding officers use words to cause their subordinates to kill and die on the battlefield. But it isn't the words alone, sometimes it is also the fear of punishment for disobeying orders, but it is also the position of authority and respect that the commanding officer most often enjoys. Those are what give meaning to the words so much so to cause others to kill and die on his/her behalf. So yes, words are powerful because they carry ideas, and those ideas are oftentimes backed by authority, respect, or fear.
All people in positions of authority and respect ought to be mindful of the power that their words can carry, and should therefore choose their words carefully. It is irresponsible and immoral to use one's position of authority and respect to deliberately and knowingly transmit false information for the purpose of deceiving the audience and benefitting the speaker. That is true just as much for Trump as it is for Biden or for Hannah-Jones. That is one reason why Trump is so uniquely unsuited for high office - he doesn't really understand this.
Hey, numb-nuts.
We saw the steal with our own eyes.
We didn't think it happened, because he said so.
It went the way so many election, that "swing" to the LieCheatSteal party, after the time when votes are normally counted.
Who is ahead on election night is almost always the winner.
Taking several days to come up with enough votes to give Biden the "win" stinks to high heaven.
Then there were the bellwether counties, Biden lost 18 of 19, that reliably predict the winner. He only took 477 counties to Trump's 2497. He lost Florida, Ohio, and Iowa, all of which 0bama won in 2008.
Time magazine printed an entire article of the secret 2020 election campaign, self described as "a well-funded cabal of powerful people, ranging across industries and ideologies, working together behind the scenes to influence perceptions, change rules and laws, steer media coverage and control the flow of information" going on for more than a year.
Let's not forget the censorship of the Hunter Biden laptop story, that sufficient numbers of Biden Voters said would have changed their pick.
Trump didn't tell us about these, we found them on our own, and most recently, 20% of the users of mailed-in ballots, admitted that they committed some kind of fraud with their submissions.
As time has passed, what you say were unfounded claims, on Trump's part, of a fraudulent election, seem to have quire a bit of founding.
Fuck off you marxist cunt. You don't demand that same thing whenever a Democrat loses. No, you jump right in and defend their fraudulent investigation to stymie their opponent, you cheerlead their "faithless elector" schemes you defend their assaults on the Capitol and various federal buildings and their violent seizure of territory.
Trump spoke a lot about the election being stolen from him, therefore any action taken by anyone after that that believed it was stolen from him makes Trump guilty of insurrection. Is that what you're going with?
First, that would be a post hoc ergo proctor logical fallacy. Second, if that's the extremely loose standard (contradictory to what was established with Brandenburg v. Ohio, regarding incitement vs free speech), then Hillary and a bunch of Dems need to be tried for incitement for the actions of the guy who shot Scalise at the Congressional softball game. He was super pissed about the "Russian interference" stealing the election from Hillary, among other things.
BuT tHaT's WhAtAbOuTism! No, it's the equal application of this new standard you want to impose.
That's not my claim. First the standard in Section 3 is not a conviction for the crime of insurrection, it says "engaged in insurrection". Second, my point is that you can't just look at his one line about "patriotically and peacefully protesting" and claim that this line alone gets him off the hook. You have to look at the ENTIRETY of what transpired. That is my point here.
And you keep dodging the point that all the things he did prior to January 6th don’t equate to an insurrection, seeing as they were protected speech and legal filings.
If you don’t think they were protected speech, just say so.
ONCE AGAIN. Yes it was all protected speech. But it was all protected speech to reinforce a narrative of a stolen election. He spent MONTHS telling anyone who would listen that the election was stolen, he loses his court cases, all of the peaceful nonviolent avenues of "correcting" the theft have failed, and then he organizes this rally for Jan. 6, for what purpose exactly? To "get wild", right?
Here is my summarization of Trump's speech on the morning of Jan. 6:
"I've spent months telling you all that the election was stolen. The crooked Democrats stole your votes and stole my rightful place as your president. We tried to fight this theft using the courts but it hasn't worked. It's because the system is rigged against all of us. Now I brought you all here today because this is our last chance to correct this injustice. I want you to go to Congress and "fight like hell" and tell them how you really feel. Because if you don't fight like hell, 'you haven't got a country anymore'. Remember, this is our LAST CHANCE. But, go protest peacefully. *wink*"
Sorry, it’s just really hard to get a bead on what your goal is if you agree that it was all protected speech and aren’t “convinced that it was “insurrection””.
Like, if you honestly believe that, then why are you arguing with everyone?
I am trying to get you to see why some people might think it is an insurrection. As I said, I am not convinced, but I can see the argument in favor that it was.
I'm also objecting to this idea that because Trump used one throwaway line about "protest peacefully and patriotically" that this one line alone somehow nullifies the months of narrative that he pushed about a stolen election. It doesn't.
Some people "think" it because it is politically beneficial to do so.
Nate, you will never get a clear and honest answer out of this morbidly obese, rancid piece of shit. Bless you for trying though.
“….,for months and months…”
Lol. You mean 2? November and December?
You’re a joke.
Yeah, the headline is pretty crap given the actually semi fair substance of the article. It isn't Trump saying anything, it is his lawyers and other constitutional scholars presenting the arguments.
Did the headline get updated? Does SUllum read comments? Because now it says "Trump's Lawyers".
Looks like they added lawyers. They read the comments!!
As soon as I read that tweet from ENB a few months back I knew they all read the comments.
I bet they day drink while they do it (NTTAWT).
Good. If she’s reading this, I want to know when she’s bringing me my goddamn sandwich.
Bitch better hurry up.
Election erection, insurrection!
Hooking up words and phrases and clauses.
“Given his continued insistence that he actually won reelection in 2020, the 22nd Amendment seems more promising.”
Amendment 22:
Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term.
Section 2. This Article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several states within seven years from the date of its submission to the states by the Congress
So, I guess you’re running with the ‘elected . . . more than twice’ portion? But despite his claims, he wasn’t elected by the electoral college, no matter what you might think of voting shenanigans, so that’s a bad argument. And, to make it, his opponents, who claim that there’s never been any voting fraud ever, would have to make the paradoxical argument that he did in fact win, and they cheated him illegally, so that seems like a non-starter.
Funny, but he was never sworn in so even if he believes it that would not be applicable. Any more than if I believe I am a bird, that I could fly if I jumped off a building. Or be a woman when I am a man...
Hey, trans women are just as delusional as real women.
I'm not sure that's true....
“Dammit Johnny, there an no chicks with dicks. There are only guys with tits!”
- Ted, from Ted 2
Man, I didn't even read his concluding sentence. Sullum just had to let TDS creep in at the end.
Dude, this is Reason.
Just read the headline, the author, and head to the comments.
I was going in expecting way less than what was presented. This had to have been Sullums 50th draft where he asked others if his vitriol was present. Almost got it cleaned up.
But despite his claims, he wasn’t elected by the electoral college, no matter what you might think of voting shenanigans, so that’s a bad argument. And, to make it, his opponents, who claim that there’s never been any voting fraud ever, would have to make the paradoxical argument that he did in fact win, and they cheated him illegally, so that seems like a non-starter.
Some moron did make that case in Maine as a reason to have him ruled ineligible. People are perfectly fine with paradoxical hypocrisy that suits their own goals.
A mostly sane and non TDS reading of the issue by Sullum. Did he have an intervention?
While he does tend to promote the ambiguous reading of a living constitution over the common reading of quite a few of the clauses, overall the reading was fair showing both sides.
Regarding the removal of the President from Section 3.... laws and the constitution must be interpreted as written. If they are written incorrectly they should be removed a new amendment created. It should not be the lawyers looking into how they can insert ambiguity into the clause to get the outcome they prefer. Ambiguity in laws is where some of our most important rights have been infringed, such as with well regulated. Or Roe. Or countless other intrusions into normal life. No libertarian should support that type of legal construction. But Sullum, in my view, does defer to that in his analysis as being equal to clear readings of the constitution.
"The result is that 51 different jurisdictions may (and have) adopted divergent rulings based on different standards on the same set of operative facts."
Under our decentralized system of elections, why is this a problem? Remember that elections are run by the states, not by the federal government. And each state has the sovereign authority to adopt its own standards for elections, subject to broad regulations that Congress establishes. States adopt different standards for all sorts of mundane issues related to voting, the cumulative total of which definitely do affect the outcome of the election in that state had another standard been adopted. So why can't states interpret Section 3 as they see fit?
Taken in this light, the claim of "oh but it's undemocratic to throw Trump off the ballot" carries less weight. Perhaps it ought to be viewed instead as the voters in Colorado (or Maine) exercising their democratic will to enforce Section 3 in a manner that they wish, via their states' democratically established processes. I mean, the voters of Colorado and Maine did vote for their respective state governments. Would it be 'undemocratic' to force those voters to accept an interpretation of Section 3 that they don't agree with?
Of course this whole issue can be resolved by Congress passing a law pursuant to Section 5 which clearly establishes who is or is not eligible according to Section 3. That would make the current judicial question moot. Heck that might actually be the SCOTUS result - it's not our job to decide these things, that's Congress' job.
Right, which means Biden can be removed from the ballots of many states due to his foreign corruption scandals.
Or allowing an invasion at the southern border.
Or arming Al Queda in Afghanistan.
I prefer the specific crimes, like his involvement with the Burisma prosecutor. To you know, keep it on the same level as insurrection.
That is more likely to fall under Bribery. The House just asked for all FISA requests or defensive briefings to Joe while VP as it apparently was done for both CEFC and Burisma. If the briefings exist, it shows an intentionality of ignoring those briefings as we know he knew who his son was working with.
Don't think you need to create ambiguous readings of the 14th amendment to get him for bribery.
Then there’s all the money laundering. Now supported by a myriad of records including wire transfers and bank deposits.
But totally no evidence if you ask a democrat like Jeffy.
Sure, based on this argument, if some red state wants to do that they would have the sovereign authority to do that, under our system of decentralized elections. Until Congress stepped in and firmly declared what the authoritative meaning of Section 3 was.
How about this Congressional "stepping in":
Amnesty Act of 1872: Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each house concurring therein), that all political disabilities imposed by the third section of the fourteenth article of amendments of the Constitution of the United States are hereby removed from all persons whomsoever, except Senators and Representatives of the thirty-sixth and thirty-seventh Congresses, officers in the judicial, military, and naval service of the United States, heads of departments, and foreign ministers of the United States.
It doesn't matter. Not in any constitutional sense anyhow. It's more of a popular view of elections issue. Average morons think if you aren't on the ballot in all 50 states you're not a real candidate. Which is total crap. Republican electors from Colorado and Maine would simply add their votes to the rest of the Trump electors at the Electoral College.
This is an argument I've had with the Libertarian Party, why fight to get the same guy on the ballot in all 50 states. Better to break the country into 3 to 4 state regions and have a different candidate for each. We'd be on the ballot and the candidates could afford to spend more time on the road in smaller regions.
"s the voters in Colorado (or Maine) exercising their democratic will to enforce Section 3 in a manner that they wish" Refresh my memory. When did the voters of either state vote to remove Trump from the ballot?
It is jeff. Assume he has no fucking clue what he is talking about. Your assumption will generally be correct.
The voters in those states voted for their respective state governments, which are presumably acting in accord with the will of the voters.
Shenna Bellows of Maine was selected for her position by the Maine Legislature, which were themselves voted into office by the voters, no?
Georgia is a state that has 33-23 Republican edge in the state senate, holds a 102-78 edge in the state house, and the governor is a Republican. Imagine if the Georgia legislature simply wrote a rule declaring all Democrats ineligible for any state office. They could pass it through both houses and then have the governor sign the bill. The state is completely allowed to set its own election laws, right?
Would you consider that a proper outcome, jeff? Is that within their power and authority?
They actually couldn't in your hypothetical, because that would be criminalizing freedom of association. But let's set that aside for the moment.
Would it be a proper outcome? No. Would it be a legally permissible outcome (ignoring the freedom of association issue)? Yes. The way to resolve it would be for Congress to pass a law pursuant to Section 5 which clearly defines what Section 3 means.
Would it be a legally permissible outcome (ignoring the freedom of association issue)? Yes.
Maybe I shouldn't be shocked that you're this much of Nazi, but I am. No, we can't use a Reichstag Fire event to ban all the communists.
Viewpoints are protected on 1st Amendment grounds, and this would be viewpoint discrimination. If a state did this, it would get appealed to federal court because it's a supremacy issue. And states can't violate 1st Amendment protections because the 14th Amendment protects their rights from being violated by the State. You can't simply ban a political party like that, States don't have the authority to violate the Constitutionally protected rights of the electorate.
And this brings us to Maine. Trump won an electoral vote in Maine in 2016 and 2020. He would very likely win one in Maine in 2024 as well. However, the state is depriving people of the right to choose him without due process: due process is guaranteed by the 14th Amendment. Trump is not convicted of insurrection, nor even charged with it. By banning people who simply hold the viewpoint that Trump is their preferred candidate, Maine is trampling upon their rights.
This is different than the objective finding that someone might not meet other qualification criteria-he's not going to be 35 at the time of election, or he's not a United States citizen. Those are objective, knowable criteria that are requirements of the office, and if a person does not qualify, then the voters never had the right to choose that as their preferred candidate in the first place.
Oh fuck you. You're not even trying to act in good faith now, when you deliberately ignore where I wrote:
Would it be a proper outcome? No.
bolded for emphasis, for all to see. I even added the caveat that it would violate freedom of association. You ignored all that just so you could get your rocks off calling me a Nazi. That is ML-level trolling.
You somehow think it would be legal though, which is insane and weird. It's like you're twisting yourself into a pretzel to justify that a state can ban Trump, without following that the logic necessary to do that would justify a ton of other horrible outcomes that are clearly wrong. Therefore, the underlying logic must be flawed.
It's not legal. It's not permissible. You could have said that, and then tried to argue that Trump is a different case, but somehow, you think that there's a potential legal methodology for a state to do this. It's such a blatant 1st Amendment violation that the proper answers are "no," "hell no," and "of fucking course not." You tried to insert some sophistry of "Well, maybe but..." but the answer is just no. And that's why I called you a Nazi, not because I have anything against you as a person (I don't fucking know anything about you other than what you've said), but because there's an insane stretch of logic being made that is fascistic in nature.
It’s not legal. It’s not permissible. You could have said that, and then tried to argue that Trump is a different case,
THAT'S WHAT I DID. You weren't reading. Here is what I wrote:
I am describing what I believe what *is*, not what *should be*. The Constitution permits lots of terrible things to occur. So you don't get off the hook for calling me a Nazi when I am describing what I think *is*, not what I think *should be*, and even when I said that what I think *should be* is that I don't think it would be the proper outcome.
I think a state *can* (not *should*, but *can*) ban Trump from the ballot because of the 14th Amendment, Section 3, due specifically to Trump's speech and actions on Jan. 6 and prior.
That is a different case than a state banning every member of a group for some figleaf claim of 'insurrection'.
ATM has shown more good faith in any single one of his comments than you have in your entire posting history here.
Proposition 107 (2016) (a citizen-initiated statute) which converted CO from a party-paid caucus system to a tax-paid primary system.
The Secretary of State shall certify the names and party affiliations of the candidates to be placed on any Presidential Primary Election Ballots.
Note again - this is exactly the change from caucus to primary system. It is the Secretary of State who does this not each party following their own rules until the rules for placing candidates for a general election..
Any challenge to the listing of any candidate on the Presidential Primary Election Ballot must be made in writing and filed with the Secretary no later than 5 days after the filing deadline for candidates. And such challenge must provide notice in writing in a summary manner of an alleged impropriety that gives rise to the complaint.
This is the origin of the lawsuits that are now making their way to the Supreme Court. I actually don't know whether the SoS originally put Trump on the ballot and then took him off re a challenge or vice-versa. But obviously they relish the legal case for taking him off more than the case for keeping him on.
At any rate - there is no overreach of authority. Merely a very recent awareness of the difference between a caucus system and a primary system.
More interesting would be the question whether Colorado and Maine have state laws on the books stating that persons seeking public office would not be allowed on the ballots if they are otherwise unqualified to hold that office if elected - for example: too old, or not citizens, etc.
Under our decentralized system of elections, why is this a problem?
Because we elect a single chief executive. Imagine 24 states said Biden is disqualified, and 26 states said Trump was disqualified. That means you'd have basically half the country saying the President doesn't have the authority to hold office, regardless who gets elected. It's not just a disagreement about which candidate they dislike, or don't prefer, it's them saying that he cannot serve, that he is not legally valid.
How does that not result in secession? Half the states would refuse to accept the power of the executive.
As I am continually reminded, no, we don't vote for a chief executive. We vote for electors to the Electoral College. And if your scenario were to actually come to pass, it would then be up to the Electoral College to deliberate and vote on the chief executive.
Again your scenario can be resolved by Congress doing its job and passing a law pursuant to Section 5 to clearly define Section 3.
As I am continually reminded, no, we don’t vote for a chief executive.
Holy shit, is THAT what I fucking said, you dishonest hack? I said we ELECT a SINGLE Chief Executive. He's the chief executive for the whole country, regardless whether some states didn't prefer him, and that's the point. Deciding not to vote for someone is a far cry from each state deciding that the Chief Executive is not eligible.
Again your scenario can be resolved by Congress doing its job and passing a law pursuant to Section 5 to clearly define Section 3.
Are you even aware that such a law exists? 18 US Code Chapter 115, Subsection 2383. Congress passed a law, it's from 1948, and it makes insurrection a crime and renders the convicted person disqualified from office. And like every US law, it requires a criminal conviction.
Or are you saying we should just ignore that law? Does it not count?
and now here you are in full defense mode. You're arguing cheap semantics and arguing about a different law, not the hypothetical law that I referred to which would be one that Congress would pass pursuant to Section 5 that clearly defines what Section 3 means.
You aren't even trying to argue against what I wrote, it's just all Trump defense all the time.
Congress passed a law against insurrection. That is the action they took, pursuant to Section 5, to serve as the enforcement mechanism for Section 3.
How is a law that defines insurrection NOT a law that clearly defines Section 3?
The standard in Section 3 is not one of a criminal conviction. The standard is if a person has "engaged in insurrection".
Here is the text of the law in question:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383
That law doesn't actually define 'insurrection'. I tried looking for a definition for it in the US code but I could not find it. Maybe you will have better luck.
I did, however, find this interesting commentary about the state of the term 'insurrection' in the antebellum years:
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/treason-insurrection-and-disqualification-fugitive-slave-act-1850-jan-6-2021
Basically, if mid-19th century standards were applied to Trump, he would be disqualified no doubt.
I did, however, find this interesting commentary about the state of the term ‘insurrection’ in the antebellum years:
Basically, if mid-19th century standards were applied to Trump, he would be disqualified no doubt.
Okay, let's look through this. They were looking at examples from the 1800 of what an insurrection was. So they used the Christiania Riot as an example of an insurrection because several people were...criminally charged with treason for the murder of a federal marshal trying to enforce a law.
What happened? They tried one person, he was found not guilty after a very short deliberation, and all charges were dropped against the remaining defendants.
So their first example of an insurrection is a case where someone was charged with Treason (not anything called insurrection) and was found Not Guilty. So by law, he did NOT commit Treason. This isn't a great start.
The second example is from Fries' rebellion. Interestingly, that is another case where people were on trial for Treason because they formed an armed band, defied US Marshals, broke free a few prisoners, and had to be put down by the army. And again, even though they were found guilty, Adams pardoned them and many people believe that the charge of Treason was a massive overreach and the pardon was the correct outcome. So again, it's questionable to put this up alongside January 6, where nobody has even been charged with treason.
I find a lot of other issues. They keep citing references to people rising "in arms" against the government, which is something greatly missing from January 6. There was no exchange of gunfire. The only shots fired seem to have been by agents of the state, both with non-lethal and lethal ammunition. People did throw back smoke bombs and used chemical irritants, and got into fracases with flagpoles, riot shields, and other implements, but I wouldn't exactly call that an armed uprising against the government by the terms they're using. There was certainly a disproportionality to the force used, with the representatives of the state using more.
Beyond that, Trump explicitly told people to respect and support Law Enforcement and Capitol Police, and to stay peaceful. So I don't see how this can really be reflected on him as inciting it. "Remain Peaceful! No violence. We are the party of law and order."
There's some really motivated legal scholars who are trying to contort some way for their preferences to just be the law. They're not following it, they're making manipulative arguments to try to squeeze an outcome out of a bunch of disparate concepts, instead of actually looking honestly at the events and the facts.
So you were meaning that Congress needs to pass a law that clarifies when someone has actually engaged in insurrection, not just insurrection itself? That makes sense, though I think that the law ATM cited makes it clear that it’s a criminal statute and thus would require an actual trial and conviction to prove such. I didn’t find a concrete definition in the US code either (not fully unexpected considering the more nebulous a word is the easier it is for the government to fuck with people).
I did find this though “ Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof…”
I’m pretty sure every anarchist, be they of the capitalist or the communist variety, has done this.
Yeah the more I read about 19th century views on 'insurrection' and 'treason' the more I come to the conclusion that when the 14th amendment was written, 'insurrection and rebellion' meant more than just explicitly advocating for the overthrow of the government, it also included forcible resistance to any law for public purposes. For example there were people tried for treason for refusing to obey the Fugitive Slave Act and refusing to hand over fleeing slaves back to their owners, which is IMO completely fucked up. They weren't trying to overthrow the government, but they were using force to refuse to obey the law *as a general principle*, which is what in their mind differentiated treason from being an ordinary criminal. They refused to acknowledge the validity of the state to enforce such an immoral law, and that is why it was treason. THAT is what the authors of the 14th Amendment meant by 'insurrection', at least as far as I can tell - a whole lot of 'treason' by an organized mob.
They were charged with treason because, among other reasons, they armed themselves and used deadly force to prevent officers of the law from enforcing the law. Which is not something that happened on January 6.
But even more interestingly...Hanway was immediately found Not Guilty. And nobody else was ever charged with Treason over the Fugitive Slave Act. So definitionally, no Treason occurred because nobody was ever found guilty of the act. It's odd how the bedrock case these legal scholars are using to define insurrection is a case where there was no crime found to have been committed.
It seems like there actually wasn't an insurrection there.
We already fought a war over this.
States rights lost.
Meanwhile Democrats everywhere are thinking "will no one rid me of these turbulent sections?!?"
Each state regulates its own ballot access.
Clearly the authors were concerned about Alabama appointing confederate senators.
They didn’t anticipate our current primary system.
So I don’t find any of the arguments particularly compelling.
I don’t see the federal jurisdiction here.
Each state regulates its own ballot access.
States do not in fact get to choose their own qualifications for federal qualifications.
They didn’t anticipate our current primary system.
Meaningless as the Amendment process still changes and the 14th doesn't change based on how primaries occur.
I don’t see the federal jurisdiction here.
Qualifications for federal elections are literally in the federal constitution.
Primary elections are internal party matters and not defined by the Constitution.
Except that they aren't internal party matters, they are tax-paid and state-run elections. If parties wanted to choose their own candidates free of external influence, then that is what caucuses are for.
Neither the judges in Colorado nor the Maine SoS are members of the party choosing the candidate for said party.
Did you have a point?
States do not in fact get to choose their own qualifications for federal qualifications.
States absolutely get to decide on the criteria of who appears on a Presidential ballot and who doesn't. That is the qualification of who can be elected. 3 candidates appeared on the 2020 SDakota ballot. 23 candidates appeared on the 2020 Colorado ballot.
Your non sequitur is noted. Now read carefully as to what I wrote.
I tend to agree with you - I half expect that the SCOTUS decision will be to choose not to decide, that states can interpret Section 3 as they wish, and if Congress doesn't like it, they have the power under Section 5 to tell the states precisely what it thinks Section 3 means.
I tend to agree.
There should be no primary election system paid for by states. There should either be a party caucus system paid for by parties. But if there is a party primary system, then it is completely reasonable for the rules of that to be decided by the taxpayers who are paying for the election not by party members who want to use a tax-paid primary to generate party memberships/registrations.
In the general election, there should be no candidate name on the ballot. We elect electors not candidates - and those names should be on the ballot.
Whoever wins the general election should be vetted by Congress for any 14A Sec3 impairment. Or by the electors of each state when they meet.
We don't understand why we have an electoral college anymore. Or how political parties actually work.
Whoever wins the general election should be vetted by Congress for any 14A Sec3 impairment.
Yeah, that seems very democratic. The people elect an individual to President, and Congress says 'nope' based on no tangible specifics and then...what...choose whomever they want or does the opposition just automatically win like in a Soviet election?
This further convinces me that you're either a straight idiot or a not-so-closeted totalitarian.
This further convinces me that you’re either a straight idiot or a not-so-closeted totalitarian
With JFree, it's probably both.
Do you not understand the electoral college? The people do not elect a President. We elect electors. Further, those electors are judicially deemed to be functionaries of the state not of the people (though imo that will be deemed unconstitutional if a real case ever arises). Further, those elector decisions are then certified (or not) by Congress. And Congress most certainly has a direct ability to remove that President from consideration via 14A Sec3.
You're the one who wants direct elections of a demagogue with no controls or restraints. And based on the candidate you prefer, a demagogue who will override all those Constitutional processes justified only by their own will to power.
The mere existence of the electoral college is merely arguing the rules of the game, but I notice you don't appear to have any problem with Congress assuming everyone is guilty of insurrection by default though.
They can put together a committee to determine which of the candidates, if any, can be President regardless of the will of the people though.
Just put Stalin on the ballot, and disqualify everyone that isn't Stalin. Election!
But that is a power that Congress already has. They could, in theory, according to Section 5, pass a law that says "Everyone not named Stalin is guilty of insurrection as the term is used in Section 3." They wouldn't need a criminal conviction because the standard in Section 3 is not a criminal standard. No sane person would ever advocate that Congress should do this, but in theory they could.
It's really quite simple.
1) Article III, Section 1 vests the "judicial Power of the United States" in the federal courts.
2) Article III, Section 2 says the "judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority", which means all cases of interpreting the US Constitution, Federal laws, and treaties.
3) Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is a provision of the US Constitution.
4) The ruling of the Colorado Supreme Court in this case is that Trump's disqualification from the ballot in Colorado is specifically derivative of his ineligibility to hold the office of the President under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, arising from no other cause. If Trump were eligible for the Presidency under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, then under the ruling of the Colorado Supreme Court in this case, he would be qualified for the ballot in Colorado.
Those four points understood, the Federal jurisdiction is quite clear and obvious. The US Supreme Court gets final say on all legal cases as to what the US Constitution means, and therefore gets to tell the Colorado Supreme Court what Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment means. As soon as the US Supreme Court rules on what that part of the US Constitution means in this case, it sends that ruling back to the Colorado Supreme Court to apply that meaning when interpreting state ballot law.
If the Colorado Supreme Court had disqualified Trump from the ballot for a reason originating in state law, rather than the US Constitution, then there'd be potential debate over whether there is Federal jurisdiction in this case. But the Colorado Supreme Court didn't, so there isn't.
Even there added qualifications for federal offices, such as term limits, have been struck down by the judiciary. States can not modify qualifications of federal elections.
Kinda-sorta.
The first thing is that states are perfectly allowed to impose qualifications like "Was able to get enough petition signatures" to ballot access for Congress. So while a 5-vote Supreme Court majority of Stevens joined by Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer declared state-imposed term limits were not a permissible limit on ballot access for Congress, it's perfectly reasonable to conclude they were full of shit (you know, like Thomas, joined by Rehnquist, O'Connor, and Scalia, did) and should be reversed by the current Court. And even if you think they weren't full of shit, it still becomes a question, in each case of a ballot access limit, of "Is this particular state ballot access limit more like a permissible petition requirement or more like an impermissible term limit?"
The second thing is that the term limits ruling dealt with elections for members of Congress, which the Constitution explicitly provides are elected by the people (whether in the original for the House, or in the 17th Amendment for the Senate). The method of selection of Presidential electors is, however, up to the discretion of a state, so there's a perfectly reasonable argument that state law can impose ballot access requirements for selecting slates of electors that go far further than it can for Congressional candidates, even if one thinks the Supreme Court's previous ruling was right in the term limits cases.
On the other hand, there is simply no question whatsoever that definitively interpreting Section 3 for the Fourteenth Amendment is, under the Constitution, a matter of federal jurisdiction. There's no wiggle room, no "it's arguable that" caveats. The Colorado Supreme Court is not, in our system, the final authority on the meaning of any part of the US Constitution.
Imagine if a state just banned a political party for all state elected positions. They just outright declared that you have to be a member of the Republican or Democratic party to serve in the state legislature, or to hold any municipal position.
Do you think the state has the right to make that kind of rule?
They've done it in California...
Why does the left care so much about the US Constitution now? They sure the F never cared what-so-ever about it in their past.
Heck, if they wanted to apply *all* of the Supreme Law there probably would've never been a Trump Administration to begin with.
Kangaroo courts and lawfare ... That's all the Nazi-Empire is making.
They've always cared in how they can create constitutional ambiguity to pass legislation not found in article 1 section 8. Started with the creation of a national bank.
The important question isn't being asked.
Why in the fuck are people still supporting Trump? Ignore the policies or politics or personality or rhetoric or his lawyer's arguments or Trump's desire to do whatever or bureaucrat desires to interfere with elections.
Can anyone argue seriously that Trump can fulfill his oath of office in future? He STILL is arguing that he won all 50 states. If he takes an oath of office, are people supposed to take that oath literally or seriously? Or is it just one of those things that a narcissist need not take either literally or seriously? If the oath isn't serious (or literal), then is that just an obsolete relic of office?
This has nothing to do with Trump. It has everything to do with you folks who still support him. He should not be anywhere in the top echelon of R candidates. Yet - there he is.
Why the fuck do you think you're safe?
Perhaps the banana republic nature of the lawfare has convinced many only mildly pro-Trump voters like me that he is probably what the billionaire boys club that is DC needs to break its stranglehold?
I can understand that. But if that is important enough to determine your vote, then why isn't it important enough to become an issue for any R candidate under age 78?
Your thoughts and beliefs aren't common nor required of anyone else. You want to remove choice because of your own belief system. Quite narcissistic of you.
So you don't like him. I get that. Why did Democrats vote for Joe Biden who is probably disqualified from holding office because he's senile? If the election wasn't stolen by Democrats then why did Hillary Clinton spend 4 years saying the election was stolen from her with even less evidence for her claims?
What you don't get is people who support Trump agree that our elections are not safe from tampering and those who claim the 2020 election had nothing crooked at all going on are the crazy ones. How did in 4 years we go from elections being easily hacked by the Russians to absolutely clean?
Shorter JFree: "I dont like Trump so its fine lawfare is used against him."
Why do you think a libertarian cares what the hell you think after your consistent support of state violations during Covid?
He fulfilled that oath of office for four full years, dip. Given past performance, I would expect Trump to do likewise in the future.
Or are his supporters just "deplorables" to you, JFree?
Have you seen Trump wear a mask during the current covid uptick? He should be banned from office!
It's amazing that they can still claim that Trump will be the end of American democracy when we literally have four years of examples of him not doing that in any form.
He even left office peacefully with no guns aimed at him. Pretty shitty insurrection when the government doesn't even need to lead you off the premises.
While they literally destroy 'democracy' making sure Trump never gets re-elected. It's a Hitler-to-power replay 101.
Pretty shitty insurrection when the government doesn’t even need to lead you off the premises.
I believe the word is failed insurrection. There are many ways for it to have failed. One way is:
a)for all ten living Secretaries of Defense to have written a letter, published in the WaPo on Jan 3 2021, rejecting proposed military intervention in any election (Flynn and others had advocated declaring martial law and a 'redo' of election), saying that all the legitimate processes for challenging an election had been taken, failed, and were now over; so it was time for the final counting and for the transition to a new admin to happen (no contact had been made) not the time for a coup.
b)for all eight chiefs of staff to write a letter to everyone in the military on Jan 12 2021 saying that Jan6 had elements of an insurrection but that more important it was clear that the Constitutional processes had all been followed and Biden would in a week become the new CinC. IOW - Trump FAILED to fulfill his oath of office as CinC to support the Constitutional processes that result in 240 years of peaceful transition of power. So the military chain of command had to provide the notification. Not some potential insurrectionist.
This is a fucking disgrace by Trump - and not surprising at all when you realize he is a narcissistic child. Anyone who votes for him now is an enemy of the Constitution. Regardless of how they may have voted in 2016 or 2020.
You are still assuming facts not in evidence. If Trump is indeed guilty of insurrection I have yet to see a conviction nor even a trial.
You're essentially saying there was an insurrection, but it failed. A curious statement given the fact that Trump was never so much as placed in handcuff's. An odd decision for a man who is claimed to have attempted to overthrow the government. One would have thought a speedy trial would have proceeded from there rather than the endless discussions over the common and legal definitions of insurrection. What I'm saying is, it would and should be obvious to all when something like that happens.
If you think I'm defending Trump's character, you're simply wrong. I personally don't like the guy and didn't vote for him. Democrats are tempting me to vote for him now though, since these shenanigan's far outweigh the idiocy of a so-far one term President who was mostly hobbled by pointless lawsuits for literally longer than he was ever in office.
That second impeachment was 'incitement to insurrection'. The House voted 232-197 in favor and the Senate voted 57 guilty and 43 not guilty.
Granted that is an entirely political presentation of a case - with a serious question as to whether impeachment is even possible after someone has left office.
But still it is clearly a majority of Congress (the authorizing entity of 14A Sec3) that agrees he incited insurrection. And almost the opposite of a 2/3 vote of Congress to remove said disability.
Just about the same statistics as voters who think the election was stolen. I guess that proves it was stolen.
Ironically, Milley is far more guilty of committing crimes around 1/6 than Trump.
To his Deranged Supporters, Trump is like the Pope - totally infallible. Everything he says or does, he gets the infinite benefit of the doubt.
What has he said or done that was so bad?
lol really? Is this a serious question?
Let's start with this:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-says-immigrants-are-poisoning-blood-country-biden-campaign-liken-rcna130141
Correct.
^^^ Trump cultist
What's the "blood of our country" chemjeff????
A [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire?
As I've said before. You leftards really believe you've already conquered the USA and established UR Nazi-Empire in it's place.
^^^ Covid and Progressive cultist
I think you just sound resentful that he has support no matter how much lawfare, propaganda, media bias etc.etc.etc are thrown at him. It vexes you in a way you cant accept. And I dont think its because you accept the premises of the arguments made by agents of your side [yes- YOUR side… the never Trump R’s and the Dems]… You dont believe them any more than the propogators of them. You’re just mad they didnt work to erode his support.
Why in the fuck are people still supporting Trump?
Many who cherish their individual freedoms can feel compelled to support martyrs created by fanatic authoritarians. Anyone weary of the authoritarian dictates in their lives cannot but help to feel sympathy and the desire to support someone who has become a victim of that authoritarianism. I thought this explanation was pretty obvious, but since the question was asked I guess it isn't obvious after all.
^THIS^
The real question is why people wouldn't support Trump after cutting more 'authoritarians' than anyone in the last century. Exiting the Paris Accord alone amounted to a good 1/16 of the D.C. Nazi-Machine.
It's no secret that the those who hate Trump also LOVE gov-'guns'. Some more than others. They just can't seem to be honest about why they hate him and instead use 1st-grader bullying games.
Jesus H. Fucking Christ.
TRUMP IS NOT A MARTYR.
Do you really believe, that all of the lawsuits that were filed against him, that they have ZERO merit to them and that it's just "fanatic authoritarians" trying to take down Trump by cynically using the courts? Really?
I will for my part concede that some of the prosecutions have been overly zealous. But each has some legitimate basis to it.
Trump really did steal documents from the White House that he wasn't entitled to keep.
Trump really did spend months and months after he lost the election irresponsibly insisting that it was stolen from him, culminating with a riot on Jan. 6 that immediately followed one of his more incendiary speeches. Even if it is not 'insurrection', he bears moral responsibility for his horrible behavior.
Trump really did play games with his property valuations in NYC, stating that they had one value in a certain context but a different value in different contexts.
Trump has pulled a lot of shady shit and he deserves to pay the price for it. What that price ought to be is subject to vigorous discussion of course. But he's not some fucking saint being burned at the stake.
Do you really believe, that all of the lawsuits that were filed against him, that they have ZERO merit to them and that it’s just “fanatic authoritarians” trying to take down Trump by cynically using the courts?
Yes.
100%
Then you're an idiot, a fool, and probably a Trump cultist.
Jeff, you're working backwards from your desired result and will twist any fact and believe any lie to get there. The idiot and fool is looking back at you in the mirror every day.
I haven't said one way or the other if I think Trump *should* be disqualified based on Section 3.
If you think Trump is totally innocent, then you have been spending too much time in the right-wing media bubble.
I think the issue is a completely valid legal case. But my opinion as to outcome is, like almost everything, more about things that no one else gives a shit about.
I would like to see CO win the case of taking Trump off the primary ballot. The only impact of that (I think) is to prevent the CO delegation from voting for Trump on the first ballot at the R convention. Even if all the attendees are Trump supporters as chosen at the caucuses and state convention. Big whoop. I would hope that the result is that CO voters get rid of primaries and return to party-paid caucuses. Maybe other states too.
I would like to see a second 14ASec3 issue be resolved at this time. Which is whether CO can prohibit ELECTORS from appearing on the ballot if they have been part of an insurrection while under oath of office. Can't remove Trump from a general election ballot (way too big an impact - plus technically Trump isn't on the ballot) but the 14A specifically talks about electors and that seems an obvious state level authority. If Trump gets the R nom, he should be able to find someone on his electoral slate whose not a total scum sucking enemy of the constitution.
I would hope that, among some voters at least, the SC decision becomes an opportunity to shake their heads of cobwebs. To get out of social media and DeRp shit and take their vote seriously. That will not likely happen.
Totally innocent of what? Of inciting the insurrection? Yes. He is innocent. 1) There was no insurrection, and 2) He was acting WELL within the Brandenburg standard.
Did he do and say things I personally wouldn't have done and said? Absolutely. His different political expression is, however, a protected activity.
He was President of the US. Not some drunk on a barstool.
Second that yes...
As-if there wasn't a Democrat that didn't do exactly as Trump is being accused of doing being absolutely absolved of their actions. Trump took documents ... so did Biden. Trump claimed the election was stolen ... so did Hillary. Etc, etc, etc, etc....
Yet only one of those two exact same actions has been the target of *YES, MERITLESS* prosecution while the other exact same actions are swept up as no big deal.
The [Na]tional So[zi]alists are rounding up the 'jews'. Plain as day.
YES
they have no more merit than the reasons why they DIDNT pursue Hillary or Joe for any of the myriad things they did and continue to do.
they have the same merit as the 2 impeachments had - NONE
Trump is a martyr. For our sake, he was crucified under the Democrats; suffered death and was buried: arose on the third day in accordance with the Constitution; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Founding Fathers. He will come again in glory to judge the quick and the dead and his Presidency will have no end. Amen.
Oh lookie there ... a Nazi-head poking fun at the Founding Fathers and the US Constitution. Glad to see you Nazi's shedding some of that fake sheep skin and revealing your real selves.
There is a huge difference between sympathizing with someone v voting for them for office.
I mean I really don't buy Trump's victim shtick. He's gonna get attention any way he can. But even if you do buy it, why on Earth do you vote for Prez based on some emotional connection you have with a celebrity/personality?
"Why in the fuck are people still supporting Trump?..."
Because, you steaming pile of lefty shit, he was the best POTUS we've had for the last century.
Fuck off and die in a afire.
How about that until Covid was used to destroy the economy things were pretty good under President Trump. There was virtually no inflation, gas prices were low, the USA was pretty much energy independent, no new wars, peace was advancing in the Middle East, the crime rate was continuing to fall and the border was secure. That is why most support him. He was a good POTUS. Under the Biden Maladministration everything that most average Americans care about is worse.
Trump may be occasionally rude and crude, he may be boisterous and he may not always be nice but he got the job done. And btw both Biden and Bill Clinton have often been rude and crude and were often mean to people that they don't like. I mean Bill Clinton had at least one sexual affair and was accused of sexual harassment while in office. Biden has been accused of swimming naked in front of a female secret service agent and regularly insults people. All of the sexual accusations against Trump occurred before he entered office and none of the accusations were alleged to have occurred while in office.
I think one reason people are still supporting Trump is to say "fuck you" to the people pushing this kind of shit.
^this^
the people in that being gov-'gun' packing thieves and planners... Once upon a time 'those people' were the British rulers.
It baffles me how many criminal conquer and consume mentalities there are out there. They just couldn't let Liberty and Justice for all prevail/remain. Had to go and tear it up for their criminal intentions.
https://twitter.com/ComradeDoyIe/status/1743013939959484723?t=g3sLLBukzUmZ5muEloPTiQ&s=19
Last Democrat to win a majority of Whites was Lyndon Johnson in 1964. The “POC” coalition correctly recognizes that they are united by a prioritized opposition to the interests of White voters — border security, meritocracy, law & order, etc. Everyone knows this, except Whites!
[Link]
Is the President above the law? The issue of the Presidency not being specifically named as an exclusion, is clearly absurd as 1) The authors of the Amendment did not think any official of the USA or the states was excluded, as they clearly state making this argument absurd: "Although the answer might seem obvious, Section 3 specifically mentions senators, representatives, and presidential electors but not the head of the executive branch, who you might think would have been at the top of the list if that position was supposed to be included. " Left out is that Section 3 clearly states , as I cite from the article itself that this applies to ALL officials. Is the President an official of the US. No doubt. No one is above the law. Here it is in black and white: "or held ANY office." Is the argument that the President did NOT hold an office? ONly a MAGA stooge would believe that lie.
I think it's assumed that the people will know when the President is an insurrectionist since the office of President will suddenly be a lifetime appointment. To date, FDR is the closest we've come.
Also, the mere fact that the President is a nationwide office elected directly by the people indicates that if the majority of people elected an insurrectionist, than insurrection is the new law of the land via democratic fiat. That apparently we're close to that point now is lost on the people who aim to try violence to quell this so-called 'insurrection' by roughly half the people in this nation. There is no reading of that fact that doesn't strongly indicate that we're on a precipice, and some people in government are eager to push us off of it.
These would appear to be self evident facts, but apparently not to some people.
You could have finished reading that section of the article.
https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/status/1742993319683301598?t=zmMLjeKG4saOwBfvxRP-Fg&s=19
America's illegal immigration crisis is shattering century-old records with alarming numbers:
2023: 3,201,144
2022: 2,766,582
2021: 1,956,519
2020: 405,036
2019: 859,501
2018: 404,142
2017: 310,531
2016: 415,816
2015: 337,117
2014: 486,651
2013: 420,789
2012: 364,768
2011: 340,252
2010: 463,382
On President Biden's inaugural day, he introduced policies that incentivize illegal immigration:
• Paused Deportations
• Suspended "Remain in Mexico"
• Stopped Border Wall Construction
Since these policy changes, over 8 million people have illegally entered the country, with millions more slipping past border patrol undetected.
This surge in illegal immigration is a national security crisis, costing American taxpayers hundreds of billions per year.
Major U.S. cities, grappling with the escalating financial burden, are slashing budgets for essential services such as fire, police, sanitation, and education.
President Biden holds the power to halt this crisis that is draining America's resources.
The solution is as simple as the actions that led to this crisis—Biden should use his pen to reverse his policy changes.
[Link]
Simi opined that Trump "developed and employed a coded language based in doublespeak that was understood between himself and far-right extremists, while maintaining a claim to ambiguity among a wider audience."
This is actually fully batshit insane, if anyone is paying attention or even cares anymore.
It amounts to mind reading and a professional grade strawman.
That this wasn't laughed out of court is indicative of the state of politics and justice in America.
I know, right? Imagine holding Trump to the same standard that everyone else in power is held to - that the sum total of his words and deeds are at least as important as one throwaway line in a speech.
With every other politician, if that politician says something, the rest of us reflexively say "he/she is probably lying, let's look at the person's record". But with TRUMP, somehow, it's different!
Tell us how nobody believed Russia stole the election... Then tell us how Hillary was held to the "same standard"..... U spout more partisan BS than anyone else here.
Considering no one else has been accused of insurrection for their speech in regards to elections, you can’t even argue he’s being held to the same standard.
It's remarkable that Trump was using coded language that was understood not only by 'far right extremists,' but also by totally objective and studious leftist chin-strokers.
Jacob Sullum, Donald Trump's self-appointed lawyer, stikes again! Dunno why Reason insists on putting itself in the tank for Big Donnie, but it does.
Don't know why you haven't expired from your TDS, steaming pile of shit.
Once again, modern society is left interpreting the ancient proclamations of a group of elite, wealthy white men. Time to move on from that dusty old document and create a new code for the 21st century.
No. It is important to worship the dead elite wealthy white men. Otherwise, we'd have to have an Article 5 convention with elite wealthy white men buying pols.
Man. You've even taken to using anti white hatred in your diatribes.
There a lot of honesty from the left coming out in those two comments above. #1 - The real insurrection, and #2 the real racism.
And what is so great about African dictatorships, South American narco-cartels, or Chinese imperialists one might ask?
Observe that the system we have is the one that allows you to spray your retard all over the place. Under the alternative forms of government most of the rest of the world uses, you'd be dead or in prison.
You're welcome. - All those 'elite wealthy white men'
well said
Once again, modern society delivers what's left in the bottom of a septic tank in the person of ed tantamount.
I just had a thought today. Imagine Trump didn't have the opportunity to replace Kennedy and Ginsburg, and instead Biden got to replace both of those. We'd have a 5-4 liberal court, and we'd probably have two more justices of the same kind of partisan mentality as KBJ.
You'd have that kind of court hearing these Trump cases, and weighing whether Trump is going to be a presidential candidate. We would probably be looking at Trump being actually removed and you'd have possible riots and actual violence. Right now the assumption is that a 6-3 court is definitely going to overturn these rulings throwing Trump off the ballot, and are likely going to intervene in some of the other lawfare cases the left is engaging in. The belief that none of this lawfare is actually going to work and that SCOTUS is going to slam the door on this is keeping people from going too crazy.
But it's rather chilling to think that we might be just two Associate Justices away from a violent political situation.
Here's the thing - none of us knows the answers and we will have to wait for the Supreme Court to decide, which, incidentally, means that yet again judges will make law, regardless of which way they rule.
1. Is S3 self-executing? Dunno.
2. Is the presidency an office, etc etc? Yes and all arguments to the contrary are stupid, though some of the stupid are more adept than others at arguing their point. RTFC.
3. Is the president an officer. etc etc. See #2
4. Did the president take an oath to support the Constitution? Yes. And see #2
5. Was J6 an insurrection? Yes. A poorly-planned and executed one, certainly, possibly due to its spontaneity - and many people who claim it wasn't would have been happy had it succeeded.
6. Did Trump engage in insurrection? Dunno. The Colorado district judge held an evidentiary hearing (fwiw, all the due process that would be needed even if due process were required - per Ilya Somin, it isn't) and said it was. Here we bump into states' rights as they relate to Federal candidates. Is it up to individual states to determine whether on their state ballot to vote for state presidential electors they can determine eligibility? Dunno.
7. Is s3 a bar to running for office? Logically, yes. You can't run for an office for which you're ineligible.
This is all different from the "shoulds" of the matter. If say Trump had been convicted of insurrection in Federal court, there is no doubt that he would be ineligible. Arguments like, "oh, it applied only to the Civil War" don't work because the drafters could have restricted 14.3 to the Civil War and they chose not to - no doubt on the grounds that insurrections in general are a BAD THING (tm Sellars and Yeatman - and hats off to anyone4 who gets the reference).
But 14.3 doesn't require a conviction - else it would have said so. This is standard, nay conservative, jurisprudence.
We won't know the answers until SC has time to mull it over. I suspect that the SC will try to thread the needle by saying that the determination of eligibility is left to the states but is not unreviewable in Federal court and can be reviewed if, blah blah blah, and they overturn Colorado SC's and Maine's decisions.
My own view? I think it's bad to exclude from the ballot someone who was not convicted of a crime to make them ineligible but I also think that as the law probably stands, Trump is ineligible for the Colorado ballot. That there may be inconsistencies across states is utterly irrelevant.
Lol. Man. 5 is fucking hilarious. You idiots will say whatever your party tells you to.
6 is kinda laughable as well.
Pretty sure the whole Section 5 of the '65 VRA has, several times, been openly interpreted that States can't disenfranchise (minority) voters, even on accident. And part of the reason I know that is because every time the idea of presenting identification in order to vote comes up, I get reminded of it.
It's one thing for Joe Biden to say "You aren't black if you vote for Trump!", it's another thing for the state of CO to say "You can't be black and vote for Trump." Even if they only mean "You can't vote for Trump."
There's an obvious difference between cases, of course.
Oh, I agree there's an obvious difference. My point is that the difference has been conspicuously obviated by 'even on accident'.
To wit, you can't tell me there's a difference without accidentally saying "Black Trump voters in CO don't deserve a vote."
You don't have to be a Democrat to think it was an insurrection. AFAIC the final purpose of the riot and the storming of the Capitol was to prevent the certification of votes and hence prevent Biden from being president. That seems to me to qualify as insurrection.
I know you approve of the riot and would have approved of that outcome as it was more important to you that Trump win, even if the win was obtained by force or fraud, than proper procedures be followed in Congress and Biden win.
Inside the Nazi-head, "but, but, but ... Trump did commit insurrection of the [Na]tional So[zi]alist - Empire!!! He literally threw out the invasion Obama invited, Exited the global Paris Accord dictation and tried to shut-down the EPA while not buying that mystery ballots from mystery Nazi's didn't remove him from the Nazi-Empire!!!"
It all comes down to who believes the USA is defined by a US Constitution and that oaths of office mean something and those who think the USA has already been conquered by Democratic [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] and is now a Singular Nazi-Empire.
There is practically two governments right now on the verge of igniting another civil war. One-side is treasonous to the Supreme Law of the land and the other is not nearly as much.
These complications might make you wonder whether Trump's opponents are relying on the wrong amendment to stop him from running for president again. Given his continued insistence that he actually won reelection in 2020, the 22nd Amendment seems more promising.
PLEASE DO THIS. I would love to hear some neverTrumper press the claim that Trump actually won the cleanest and most tamper-free election in US history. Because then they would have to say that Biden assumed the Presidency fraudulently.
PLEASE LET THIS HAPPEN.
New York City Is Suing Bus Companies For Transporting Illegal Immigrants Into The City
New York City Mayor Eric Adams announced in a video Thursday that the city is taking a new step to tackle the migrant crisis in the city: suing the bus companies bringing the illegal immigrants to the city from Texas.
"Today, our administration filed a lawsuit against 17 companies that have taken part in Texas Governor Greg Abbott's scheme to transport tens of thousands of migrants to New York City in an attempt to overwhelm our social services system," Adams said.
Adams said the city is suing the bus companies to "recoup" $700 million that has been spent to take care of the migrants.
Adams tweeted, "We'll see you in court" along with the video.
This comes after the Office of the New York City Comptroller shared a fact sheet to combat "rising xenophobia" about immigrants.
So, New York isn't happy with a batch of immigrants? Isn't Lady Liberty in their waters? Doesn't she say something about accepting poor, tired, wretched masses yearning to breathe free? How can they refuse such people in their state? Seems they don't want to live up to those noble words.
Odd, I haven't seen Jeff or Sarc complain about this or what Chicago is doing.
Actually he is not disqualified until Congress says he is which would occur on Noon January 20, 2025 if Congress chooses not to vote or votes but fails to get 2/3 vote to lift. Until that happens, Trump's disqualification has no force and States cannot keep him off the ballot as a disqualified candidate. It's pretty simple to understand.
Trump doesn't hold the office of the Presidenct until Noon on January 2025. It's right in the Constitution:
Article II
Section 1.
The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term of four years,
His term of office is 4 years exactly. From Noon on January 20, 2025 to Noon on January 20, 2029
Even if Trump is disqualified under 14C3, he's not disqualified until January 20, 2025. 14C3 refers to holding office not running for office. 14C3 says Congress can lift the disqualification by a 2/3 vote. Trump has until January 20, 2025 to convince Congress to lift or he will be a President Elect who has failed to qualify as governed by the 20th Amendment. Trump CANNOT be denied access to the Ballot even if they are right (Which they are not.)
20th Amendment Section 3
If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
Trump is NOT disqualified until Noon on January 20, 2025 if Congress does not vote or votes but fails to get 2/3 to lift his disqualification.
In other words, the 14C3 imposed upon the President does come into effect until Noon of January 20, 2025 when Trump must take the Oath to hold and serve his term. At any time before that time, if Congress votes 2/3 to lift, Trump can take the oath and hold and serve his term. However, if Congress chooses not to act or if Congress votes and fails to get 2/3, then Trump's disqualification goes into effect at Noon on January 20, 2025. Trump will be classified as a President Elect who failed to qualify under the 20th Amendment. Trump's VP will serve the term of POTUS until Congress lifts (Which they may never do.) At this point Trump will be stuck in President Elect Limbo unable to hold and serve his term for a period of 4 years until Noon on January 20, 2029 when his term ends.
The Congressional Lift acts as a fail-safe. On January 06, 2025, after the Joint Session of Congress certifies Trump as President Elect, the Joint Session would have to take a vote to lift Trump's disqualification. If Congress chooses not to vote (they don't have to.) or they vote but fail to get a 2/3 vote, Trump will a President Elect WHO HAS FAILED TO QUALIFY under the 20th Amendment. Come Noon on January 20, 2025, Trump will not be allowed to take the oath to hold and serve as POTUS. Trump's VP will take that oath.
The whole idea of banning Trump from the ballot is frivolous.
>His Supreme Court petition raises serious questions about how to interpret and apply Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.
Does it though?
We could, perhaps, just admit that since there's no *test* for what it means the it means nothing.
Engaging in Insurrection has been CODIFIED into a crime under our law. (See Federal Statute 2383.) As such, Trump would have to be convicted of that crime. It's like saying if you rape someone or kill some one, you can't be President. We know that both Rape and Murder are Crimes. As such, Some One would have actually be convicted of those crimes. I think the same applies here.
I think that whole question of whether 14C3 applies to Trump or to the president for that matter is issue of CLARITY. That's what Judge Wallace thought in Colorado. 14C3 does not include the President and the presidency and it does not exclude either. 14C3 is UNCLEAR on whether it applies to the President. As Judge Wallace pointed out, without clear unmistakable intent of 14C3, she was unwilling to disqualify him.
22nd amendment? That's a stretch. The second clause (?) assumes death or removal from office by a successful impeachment.
Yes, 22nd Amendment. Trump was president for a 4-year term from 2017 to 2021. He has repeatedly stated he won the 2020 election. That means his second 4-year term was from 2021 to 2025. The 22nd limits presidents to a maximum of 2 terms.
Then you’d have to admit that the election actually was stolen and Biden is a usurper.
Have fun with that, hahahahaha
EdG seems to be a bit dim-witted.
You seem to be a lot dim-witted and a punk to boot.
"Simi opined that Trump "developed and employed a coded language based in doublespeak that was understood between himself and far-right extremists, while maintaining a claim to ambiguity among a wider audience."
You see chemjeff pulling this same shit above.
The implication of a dog whistle is doing all the work, allowing Simi and Jeff to describe somebody as advocating a position at odds with what they actually said.
Basically allowing people like Simi and Jeff to misrepresent (lie) about Trump's stated position. A common trick found in extreme bad faith arguments.
The false narrative becomes truth if the betters of society come to a collective reasoning imposing it as such.
Both Jeff and Simi are too stupid to realize that dogs hear dog whistles so the fact they can hear Trump's supposed racist dog whistles just outside them as racists. Imagine being so bent you think "protest peacefully and patrioticly is some sort of white supremacist double meaning.
If Simi thinks "protest patriotically and peacefully" represents white supremacy then that's bonkers and I don't agree with it.
On the other hand, the single phrase "protest patriotically and peacefully" is a throwaway line intended for plausible deniability, and does not nullify the months and months of 'stolen election' narrative that he had built up until that point.
Why should we ignore the months of Trump whining about 'stolen election', and instead take that one single phrase as representing the sum total of his thoughts?
On the other hand, the single phrase “protest patriotically and peacefully” is a throwaway line intended for plausible deniability, and does not nullify the months and months of ‘stolen election’ narrative that he had built up until that point.
That is beside the point.
“It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.
2. Members of Congress are not officers of the United States nor are presidential electors. That's why they are specifically mentioned in Section 3. The president is and officer of the United States, as confirmed in Section 17 of the 1799 Postal Act, an officer of the United States. Sec. 17. And be it further enacted, That letters and packe~s to and from the following officers of the United States ... the President of the United States.
5. Trump's lawyers argue that insurrection is "the taking up of arms and waging war upon the United States." However, that overlooks the plain language of Section 3, which states the offense is engaging in insurrection or rebellion against the United States Constitution. That is, rebelling against a Constitutional provision, not waging war. Trump's offense was attempting to remain in office beyond the limited 4 year term he was elected to in 2016.
The president is and officer of the United States, as confirmed in Section 17 of the 1799 Postal Act, an officer of the United States
Perhaps the weakest possible find one can imagine when you resort to the postal act.
If 'rebellion' is defined as 'against the constitution' what does that specifically entail? What acts meet the measure, and which one's do not? Does it only apply to those who are currently in office, or can people running for office engage in it as well? How about ex-politicians, how can they engage in insurrection? How about citizens? What is the measure there?
It seems to me that a hopeful politician that claims the election was hacked for multiple years after the fact could be said to be engaging in insurrection. So too could a private citizen ranting on a message board about a current President isn't the real President.
The over broad interpretation of insurrection is a major concern for civil liberties and free elections going forward. This issue was settled over a century ago yet here we are again. This is the path to the government deciding who can be President outside of the constitutional compact. That's insurrection against the people, full stop.
“…is a major concern for civil liberties and free elections…”
The fact that so many people don’t grasp that those are the exact reasons a lot of us have with all of this bullshit saddens me.
The Constitution permits violations of civil liberties.
Whether the Constitution *does* permit Trump to be disqualified, and whether the Constitution *should* permit Trump to be disqualified, are two completely separate questions.
The Constitution permits violations of civil liberties.
After due process. Has Trump been charged with insurrection? Has he been given opportunity to put forth a robust defense, with the power to subpoena witnesses, with full discovery of the evidence and all witnesses against him?
It's exactly the 14th Amendment that guarantees that Civil Rights shall not be removed absent due process.
But, once again, the Section 3 standard is not criminal conviction, it is "engaged in insurrection".
There have been eight people disqualified under Section 3. Only two of the eight people were charged with *any* crime, and neither of those two were charged with the crime of 'insurrection'.
https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-reports/past-14th-amendment-disqualifications/
So Trump did get his 'due process', it was in the Colorado legal system and in the Maine administrative system.
So all we'd need is for some future Republican Secretary of State to declare that, say, running for office as a Democrat is an act of insurrection, and you'd be okay with instantly disqualifying any Democrat candidate currently running for office, and all Democrat officeholders who were elected to their position, since they would all have engaged in insurrection?
If all the 14th Amendment requires is a declaration that someone engaged in insurrection with no clear definition of what that is, and no due process involved in determining guilt or innocence, then any declaration works, right?
Section 3 just requires that someone be engaged in insurrection, this is true. However, the part of the US code that ATM mentioned above, while not giving an explicit definition of what an insurrection is, does codify it as a criminal offense.
Last time I checked, criminal offenses have to be proven in a court of law with due process and a presumption of innocent until proven guilty. Not just some 5 day civil trial (and definitely not some SOS getting to decide it is so) based on a tv drama.
Furthermore, there is no civil *right* to be a candidate for federal office. Instead potential candidates must meet qualification conditions and submit applications for candidacy, applications that have to be approved. That is one reason why there are ballot access laws in every state, because there isn't any civil right to be a candidate, so the two parties use the state's power to keep competitors off the ballot.
SCOTUS case Taylor v Beckham established as a judicial principle that public offices are mere agencies or trusts and not property protected by the Fourteenth Amendment and thus not entitled to due process. See: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/178/548/
I think that whole question of whether 14C3 applies to Trump or to the president for that matter is issue of CLARITY. That’s what Judge Wallace thought in Colorado. 14C3 does not include the President and the presidency and it does not exclude either. 14C3 is UNCLEAR on whether it applies to the President. As Judge Wallace pointed out, without clear unmistakable intent of 14C3, she was unwilling to disqualify him.
The authors of the 14th Amendment initially included President and Vice President in Section 3 but took them out after concluding they were indeed officers of the US and thus already covered. Congress and electors are explicitly listed because they are not officers of the US.
So people who enact gun control laws are disqualified, then.
Only a dimwit would think that.
School Shooter Who Injured Five, Killed One Allegedly Pro-Transgender Student
The school shooter who killed one person and injured five at Perry High School in Iowa has been identified by authorities as 17-year-old Dylan Butler.
Police say the deceased victim was a sixth grade student. Four of the other victims are also students, and the fifth is an administrator.
According to since deleted social media accounts viewed by LibsofTikTok and news outlets, Butler's TikTok summary had a gay pride flag and he posted an image about supporting transgender children.
News reports claim Butler turned the gun on himself.
Similarly, the Covenant School shooting in Nashville, Tennessee was perpetrated by a transgender former student.
Watch, he'll also have a manifesto that the State/Media cover up.
Translaughter
So it was not gang-related?
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. No
6. No
7. No
8. May a state add qualifications of its own to persons entitled to submit slates of electors? Yes. Not only was Thornton wrong, but presidential and congressional elections are distinguishable in that there is no
9. May SCOTUS reverse the Colorado Supreme Court? No. The question is not whether SCOC misinterpreted the US constitution. The question is whether Colorado has taken away any right, privilege etc. conferred by federal law. If Colorado, misinterpreting federal law, takes away something that it could take away itself, that is not overturnable by the United States.*
10. Is preponderance of the evidence an appropriate standard? No. While constitutional, it hardly respects the gravity of the situation. Beyond reasonable doubt is normatively correct, not for a candidates interest, but for the republic's.
11. Did the people (framers/drafters have no actual authority and are thus irrelevant) in the 1860s expect that they could be kept from voting for a president? NO. The Australian (pre-printed) ballot wasn't a thing yet; there was thus no concept of ballot access. People could and did vote for insurrectionists. Even if the answer to (2.) legally includes the presidency, in an era without ballot access it politically and practically excludes it. Section 3 should not be understood as anti-democratic. This was an intensely populist era. It should be seen as anti-sectarian. If the people elected a governor he might be excluded by quo warranto or other means. But if the whole people of the nation chose someone as president, in the thinking of the time: who was congress to refuse to seat him?
12. Is disqualifying him a dumb idea? Yes. Section 3 isn't a suicide pact, but it's only one step better. It's downright dangerous, and we would do well to repeal it.
*Due process, Equal protection etc. still apply. I'm not saying there's absolutely nothing reviewable in federal court. My point is that SCOTUS' authority is the same as if this were a qualification written by the Colorado General Assembly for mayorships. This is a complex topic; I'm happy to discuss it.
Yonhap News Agency
North Korean People's Army fired 200 artillery shells towards the Yeonpyeong Island (South Korea) and the Western coast of Korean Peninsula.
Also reported that shells were fired at the northern part of Baeknyeong Island (South Korea).
Trump's lawyers unsurprisingly take a different view. Given the historical context, they say, "'insurrection' as understood at the time of the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment meant the taking up of arms and waging war upon the United States." That is notably different, they argue, from what happened at the U.S. Capitol in 2021 or from what happened the previous year in Portland, Oregon, where "violent protestors targeted the federal courthouse…for over 50 days, repeatedly assaulted federal officers and set fire to the courthouse, all in support of a purported political agenda opposed to the authority of the United States." Such incidents, they say, reflect "a long history of political protests that have turned violent," which are a far cry from what Section 3's framers had in mind.
This is indeed the most compelling argument.
Most of those protestors were not under an oath of office on Jan6.
Insurrection is waging war against the United States. Nothing less than that.
The point is that they weren't considered to be engaging in insurrection, not "Well if you ban me you'll have to ban them!" It's about using a consistent definition that is neither arbitrary nor capricious.
The consistent definition of the 14th Amendment is:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
For the 22nd Amendment to be much more promising to prevent Trump from taking office, one would be arguing that Trump did win the 2020 popular vote and was illegally prevented from being elected by the Electoral College by false electors and therefore denied his rightful office. The argument would have to be that there was a vast conspiracy to undermine the working of the presidential vote to accomplish this and everyone involved were, arguably, traitors. It is a complete 180 degree reversal of the current narrative.
I am not sure that even the most dedicated progressive mind could handle that kind of cognitive dissonance.
Not a bad list. But the people screaming "14th Amendment!" should try reading Section 1 while they are at it:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...
"Due process" isn't some abstract legal concept, it's right there two sections before Section 3. No state shall deprive any person (e.g. Trump) of liberty (e.g. the liberty to run for public office) without due process of law (i.e. a public trial and conviction before enacting penalties.)
I mean, the idea of barring certain candidates for office, on the say-so of mid-level elections officials, is preposterous on its face. And doubly so if the reason for disqualifying that candidate is that he led a particularly vociferous protest against the accuracy of the previous election count.
Engage in a thought experiment, if you will: Imagine there actually was a conspiracy to rig the election, if not nationally, then in in a handful of battleground states (say, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Nevada and Arizona). Ostensible losing candidate A points out that the election doesn't seem right and wants to delay the certification until it can be fully audited. The government says "no dice, you had a few chances in court, and lost (or were denied standing)." Then candidate A's supporters protest on public property to stop the certification. Then the winning candidate B has his minions bar candidate A from running 4 years later, based on candidate A's supporters protesting that he was robbed.
Protesting for election integrity is not insurrection, it's an attempt to prevent insurrection.
Add to the thought experiment. That losing candidate currently controls the military and the entire executive branch of government.
Did we really put the 1A in place so that the government could have freedom of speech? So that the executive could unaccountably breach separation of powers and ensure that the legislative could not fulfill its constitutional obligation re elections?
Personally I completely agree with you re candidate B. In the words of a President far more competent than Biden can ever dream of being, the principal argument for reposing the power of pardoning in this case to the Chief Magistrate is this: in seasons of insurrection or rebellion, there are often critical moments, when a well timed offer of pardon to the insurgents or rebels may restore the tranquillity of the commonwealth; and which, if suffered to pass unimproved, it may never be possible afterwards to recall.
Imagination a world where voters were competent, where presidents were competent, and where we still believed in silly stuff like 'tranquility of the commonwealth'.
imagine if some jury in DC convicted trump of "insurrection"
would you consider it a legit finding? I certainly would not.
They were 10 votes shy of convicting him of "incitement of insurrection" back in 2021 when they tried to impeach him the second time. But then that's incitement not "engage in" so yeah, he's never even been charged with "engaging" just some politically motivated free speech haters in congress who said that they were going to impeach him for two months straight before he even took the office.
It's fucking retarded. There was no insurrection. It should end there.
How about a court of Inuits in Alaska?
Neither would I, however at least it would be a conviction by a jury. Better than condemnation by four judges.
You are a terrorist and a traitor
The left has just been using and accepting that language for so long that they cannot definitionally agree. The word, for them, means exactly the thing that happened on January 6, it's just a direct association.
If there's anyone who's claiming this lawfare is going entirely too far right now, but previously accepted the "insurrection" hyperbole, they need to look in the mirror. There's some CNN types who repeated that language repeatedly but right now think this is a bad idea. But they fed this propaganda to people and this lawfare is now the resulting outcome.
"The only people who would give him a fair trial are smart enough to avoid jury duty."
Amen to this.
The easiest way to get out of jury duty is to quote full metal jacket.
First seeing the lawyer
"are you a faggot? I bet you could suck a golf ball through a garden hose"
After asking if your biased
"there is no racial bigotry here I do not look down on nigger kikes wops or greesers, in my eyes they are all equally worthless"
I never get picked. I usually manage to piss off one of the attorneys amd get excluded.
You are a terrorist and a traitor
"The word, for them, means exactly the thing that happened on January 6, it’s just a direct association."
I mean, literally, this is true. I've suggested to them that the 'autonomous zones' were insurrections, and they say to me, "You mean the autonomous zones broke into the Capitol building to stop the Presidential certification?"
Stupid as it is, they think that the definition of "insurrection" is "Exactly what we accuse Trump of, and nothing else."
I guessed from the beginning that this was why they kept using the word "insurrection". Wasn't sure any courts would have the audacity to go with it, though.
You are a liar and a terroristsymphathizer and a traitor
It was a insurrection and a act of terrorism and any real sane country all involved would have been executed and or incarcerated for life.