How a Law No One Understands Brought Down Florida Drug 'Kingpins'
Jordan S. Rubin's Bizarro tells the story of the men who tried and failed to challenge the government's arbitrary rules on synthetic drugs.

Bizarro: The Surreal Saga of America's Secret War on Synthetic Drugs and the Florida Kingpins It Captured, by Jordan S. Rubin, University of California Press, 278 pages, $27.95
For the average American, the phrase "Florida drug kingpin" is more likely to evoke cocaine-slinging Cubans or meth-cooking bikers than a middle-aged science-fiction nerd who invited the police to inspect his facilities. Yet in the eyes of federal prosecutors, Charles Burton Ritchie was no less a kingpin—just smarter and less violent than the folks they were used to dealing with.
The story of Ritchie's rise and fall, as told by Jordan S. Rubin in Bizarro: The Surreal Saga of America's Secret War on Synthetic Drugs and the Florida Kingpins It Captured, is every bit as compelling as a more Scarfacian tale. Rubin, a former narcotics prosecutor in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, has written a period-defining study of federal drug prosecutions at the beginning of the synthetics boom.
Our Dantes are Ritchie and his business partner Ben Galecki, who met as teenagers in the early 1990s while attending the same Narcotics Anonymous meeting in Pensacola, Florida, both under court order. Ritchie was a few years older and went on to found the Psychedelic Shack, a beach-adjacent shop that sold bongs, rolling papers, and alternative clothing. Galecki would later work at the Shack as a piercer.
Initially, the Shack made most of its money from cannabis paraphernalia. In keeping with head-shop practice, Ritchie forbade his employees from acknowledging what things like bongs were designed for and would not sell to customers who mentioned illegal drugs. Eventually, he got hip to a trendy head-shop product called spice, conveniently marketed by wholesalers as potpourri or incense, packaged by the gram, and featuring a label warning that it was "not for human consumption." Once on the Shack's shelves, it quickly became popular among the customers who bought "tobacco water pipes."
Spice, as many Americans now know, is not potpourri or incense. It's also not just "a" drug but an ever-changing number of synthetic cannabinoids sprayed onto generic plant matter to mimic the effect of cannabis.
The very first spice formulation to hit the American gray market was created by Clemson University chemist John W. Huffman in the 1980s using a federal grant from the National Institute on Drug Abuse. Huffman would later say that actual cannabis was far safer than smoking the compounds Chinese chemists created based on his published research, which he likened to "playing Russian Roulette."
But Ritchie didn't tell his customers to smoke it. He told them it was incense and potpourri. "I'm a libertarian," he said during cross-examination at a 2017 criminal trial. "What people do with a legal product is their business."
This brings us to the recurring theme in Rubin's investigation: Ritchie's belief that he had sold a legal product. How does one ascertain that one's business is square with the law? You could consult the law—in this case, the Controlled Substances Act, which is periodically amended to include new compounds that the government wants to prohibit. You could contact an attorney. You could consult the local sheriff's department and the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). You could have a lab test your product for banned compounds. Ritchie did all those things when he founded a spice manufacturing company called Zencense, and everyone—including the law—told him that the compounds he was buying from China, cutting with acetone, and spraying onto plant matter did not contain controlled substances.
But complying with the 1986 Federal Analogue Act is not quite that simple. The statute gives federal law enforcement license to go after people who deal in substances "substantially similar" in structure, effect, or advertised effect to prohibited ones.
In 1992, the first major case in which the law was applied went down in flames after two DEA chemists disagreed over whether an orphaned antidepressant compound called AET, which the defendants marketed as MDMA, was, in fact, substantially similar to any drug that was actually illegal. When the DEA analysts reached different conclusions in their respective testimonies, Judge Lewis Babcock, a Reagan appointee, concluded that the Analogue Act failed to inform citizens of what was actually illegal. If the DEA's chemists couldn't agree with each other about substantial similarity, what hope would a normal person have?
What does the phrase even mean? Alexander Shulgin, a Dow chemist turned psychedelic pioneer who reintroduced MDMA to the world after decades of inattention, succinctly summed up the problem with the Analogue Act in a 1987 lecture cited by Rubin: Is a Pontiac taillight "substantially similar" to a Chevy taillight? "In some ways yes and some ways no," Shulgin answered himself.
Rubin's history of the Justice Department's lobbying efforts over the Analogue Act suggests the agency was less concerned with epistemology than whether the concept would hold up in court. Eventually it would. All it took for the government to start winning was some messaging discipline within the DEA and enough trials to build a reservoir of favorable precedents.
As in 1992, that discipline was initially hard to come by when the DEA sought to prosecute spice manufacturers in the 2000s. Central to Rubin's book is a forensic chemist at the DEA who believed that Ritchie and Galecki, the latter a 20 percent owner of Zencense until the pair sold the company in 2012, were not manufacturing or selling a drug that was "substantially similar" to compounds that had been banned by a 2011 amendment to the Controlled Substances Act. The DEA fought fiercely to keep that chemist from testifying and found a friendly federal judge to agree in the first major trial against Ritchie and Galecki. During the second of what would be three trials, the DEA chemist was allowed to testify, but he had, by that point, resigned from the agency under a cloud related both to his work habits and to his unwise response to a Craigslist personal ad seemingly posted by a juvenile. In other words, he'd lost his punch as a witness.
Rubin's play-by-play of the legal battle that followed Ritchie and Galecki's indictment is meticulously annotated and chilling. One federal prosecutor said in open court that the government keeps a secret list of prohibited analogs that it will not share with the public because that would let the "bad guys" stay one step ahead of the law. A federal judge refused to let Ritchie tell a jury what steps he took to comply with federal drug laws.
Ritchie and Galecki are not perfectly sympathetic. They called their products potpourri and incense but gave them names like Bizarro and Orgazmo. They knew people were smoking and inhaling a chemical bouquet they mixed themselves in what can charitably be called rustic conditions.
But the feds come across here as more dangerous, mercurial, and unethical than their targets. Instead of presenting jurors with evidence of a crime and then proving the defendants committed that crime, the Analogue Act both allows and requires prosecutors to present legally vague behavior and then have jurors determine, based largely on competing testimonies on molecular chemistry, whether any crime was committed at all. In short, what Zencense did was not illegal until jurors said so, which they definitively did in September 2020.
The pair's ordeal is also vivid proof that bad laws have unintended consequences. It was the prohibition of cannabis, after all, that led to Huffman's research and the spice market. In a saner world, Ritchie and Galecki could've sold legal cannabis at the Psychedelic Shack. In this one, they saw a loophole the government created and took their shot. The government, unwilling to concede that it didn't have a pot to piss in, closed that loophole around their necks.
Ritchie, now 53, and Galecki, 49, are scheduled for release from federal prison in 2032. The Analogue Act is still the law of the land, even if nobody quite understands what that means.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
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Being clear and concise when making law is not a job requirement to be a congressman.
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And all of this without any amendment granting the federal government the authority to regulate any of this at all.
Feature, not bug.
I thought they were all lawyers. The laws should be exceedingly clear, if not concise.
Making laws that are "clear" would reduce the need for lawyers.
Vagueness is how this law works. You have to be vague to ban things that have not been invented. I can think of a less vague way to write such a law: specify the chemical receptors in the human brain that must not be stimulated and how much stimulation is required to break the law. But that would be beyond the comprehension of most congressmen, judges, and jurors…
In a much better world, there wouldn’t be a question of whether this law was void for vagueness because its object – forcing adults to get government permission to introduce substances to their own bodies – would be recognized as a violation of the 9th Amendment, as well as exceeding the enumerated powers of the Federal government. In a slightly better world, when a judge did not allow expert testimony that the substances Ritchie sold were not an illegal drug, and when another judge did not let Ritchie tell a jury what steps he took to comply with federal drug laws, the verdicts would have been overturned, and the judges and prosecutors fired, disbarred, and required to reimburse Ritchie’s legal expenses.
But we live in a world where most judges are former prosecutors and appeals courts try to find every possible excuse for prosecution-minded trial judges and misbehaving prosecutors – and even when forced to overturn a conviction, appeals courts never impose any consequences on the judges and prosecutors responsible for wrongful prosecutions and unfair trials.
"The Analogue Act is still the law of the land, even if nobody quite understands what that means."
Um, I know what it means.
It means don't fuck with the feds.
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Yeah. As has been the theme for at least the last decade, and definitely the last 6-7 years, it's "show me the man, I'll find you the crime" when it comes to the justice department. But people agree to disagree on when those abuses are actually occurring in every case of aggressive prosecution.
The only other thing I can say about this particular case is... if you're selling chemical compounds from your back room lab that YOU know are meant to be wink-wink-nudge-nudge taken for customers to get high, and you're making it to wink-wink-nudge-nudge be substantially similar to some banned substance, you're doing what the kids call "skating on thin ice".
When your business plan relies on several members of a federal alphabet agency to arbitrarily decide you're breaking the law, you are playing a major game of chicken. You may end up being a libertarian "martyr", but you'll be that from prison. So plan accordingly.
I have seen what damage that shit can do to people, these guys were selling poison.
I don’t know about it being poison, (literally) because who knows what the fuck is really in them. But my few experiences with several brands (back in the legally grey days) ranged from: it does fuck all, to heinously intense, with no happy middle ground.
Man, the original formula of the “flight risk” brand was, no shit, instant catatonically high (for hours) from half a puff. People ended up calling “fright risk”. And unlike a normal pot induced heart racing/panic attack, you couldn’t really tell yourself it’s never killed anybody. Because with that shit, who knows? I don’t recommend it.
That and Salvia. Motherfuck Salvia.
Hat Man come visit?
You’ve seen him too?!
I don’t know about it being poison, (literally) because who knows what the fuck is really in them. But my few experiences with several brands (back in the legally grey days) ranged from: it does fuck all, to heinously intense, with no happy middle ground.
Because I can't get a handle on modern libertarianism any more than modern libertarianism can get a handle on a law that says things like "substantially similar", I'm told that in Lilbertopia, that if legalized, all of this stuff would be properly regulated by the appropriate 3-letter agency and as such, we'd all then "know what's inside it", so it would all be 100% safe and effective with no downsides.
No the government wouldn't regulate drugs. It would be private organizations like UL. You could either check for their certification or take your chances you're free to do either.
I call bs on this claim. It is as effective at combating the wu flu as mrna jabs
That doesn’t stop McDonald’s. Or Krispy Kreme.
Bad food doesn’t cause brain damage.
Ever heard of cigarettes?
Finally a vague legal construction used to target individuals Reason can criticize.
It involves drugs.
And "chemicals".
chemchuck radical pharmacist
So where is Fatfuck? Haven’t felt his morbidly obese presence for several days.
He's down below trolling and being an evil and dishonest cunt as usual.
Imagine if there were a vague law against food trucks.
Pressumably if they wanted to, they could enact a law that cut thru the bullshit and just made it illegal to have substances that were psychoactive that people consumed because they were enjoyable or interesting, except for a list of excepted substances. But that would be too embarrassing, because if they admitted that was the object of such prohibitory policies, a lot of support for them would be lost that's maintained only because the public is bamboozled into thinking there's some technical, medical condition called "substance abuse" that only doctors can understand.
On the other hand, one of those countries down under (Aus/NZ, I forgot which) has come close by prohibiting in advance psychoactives for non-medical use.
The UK has that law. Every substance not expressly permitted is forbidden.
And next they will do that with speech.
Already in effect. Any country that bans a gentleman from carrying a sword cane is no longer free.
What is Britain without gentlemen adventurers that carried canes with swords inside them?
Thanks. Maybe I was confusing it with the legislation that was reported on here a few years ago by which a country was going to have an explicit licensing ("approval") process for recreational substances (like that for therapeutic and diagnostic ones), but by the time it was adopted the approval mechanism was going to be inoperative because the required animal testing was outlawed for all but medical drugs.
That would be Oregon. You can take certain psychoactive substances, but only if you go to a licensed, state-certified monitor.
No, not much relationship there.
a middle-aged science-fiction nerd who invited the police to inspect his facilities. Yet in the eyes of federal prosecutors, Charles Burton Ritchie was no less a kingpin...
"Sorry son, but the Chinese and the CIA will be the only ones slinging drugs in these here parts."
I think Ben Galecki watched too much Breaking Bad.
Fuck Nikki Haley and the Koch she rode in on.
She's the most libertarian neocon of all time. According to people funded by Kochs.
What was George W. Bush, a communitarian war monger? He tried to privatize Social Security.
We know both sides are equally bad with spending if they try but fail. Ask jeff and sarc.
Like 2% of it. And the leftists shit themselves over that.
Once we got over rule of (actual) law, we should expect to be prosecuted at will for any reason (or none). Or not prosecuted for things that are actual crimes, according to vestigial laws.
Humans really are disappointing.
Late stage empire isn’t as fun as I thought it would be.
Once everything is illegal, it's up to those in power what you are charged with and when.
The emperor has no clean clothes.
Well we now know why Jeff trusts The Science over actual science. Once you play with enough variables you can justify even being obese.
New York Post
@nypost
Exercise may not be the key to living longer — it might even be aging you faster https://trib.al/of5z2qh
It’s funny because Jeffy admitted he’s fat.
And I’d tell Jeffy to go fuck himself, but I sincerely doubt he can reach around that far.
LOL it is hilarious how much mind space I take up for you guys.
I bet they remember other jokes too.
"hilarious how much mind space I take up"
Maybe it's time to lose a little weight, Creamjeff.
Very little mind space Lying Jeffy. Pretty telling it would be for you.
You are the one who, when posting 10 comments on an article, decided to devote 9 of them either responding to me directly or referencing me in some way.
You’re a popular subject for derision and ridicule here.
Did you not know that?
Everyone hates him, hundreds of people have called him out and told him to fuck off, but he acts like somehow it's everyone else's fault and not his that he's so widely reviled.
I look forward to when you bring this up for the ninth time.
Are the conspiracy theorists that deny exercise is good called girthers?
The government's BMI numbers are too low. People who are 10 pounds over them have lower mortality rates, because they have an energy reserve against illness. 10 pounds over, not 30 or 40.
Alright I've had just about enough of this. Fat shaming is RACIST!
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2023-12-08/fat-propaganda-roundup-social-justicetm-heifer-horrifically-fat-shamed-chinese
“I decided I would try to trace the transition in the Western world from valuing voluptuous figures to valuing slender ones. And what I found is that it had everything to do with the growth of the slave trade. In the early years of slavery, voluptuous physiques were prized because slavery and the Renaissance were coterminous. And by a couple of centuries on, in the middle of the 18th century, it was very common for race scientists to suggest that… race is not just about skin color. It’s also about behavior and appearance. We know that Europeans are the most superior, most disciplined, most rational of all the races. And that’s why they’re at the top of our racial hierarchies. But we also think that black people are overly sensuous. They love sex. They love food. And, as a result, they are chock full of veneral diseases, and they are overweight. So, from this, we have the seedlings of our current aesthetic system.”
That’s right: that whole time you were dreading sitting next to the quarter-ton heifer on the airplane, her moist arm rolls draped over you, inducing claustrophobic panic, you were actually just subconsciously exercising your deep-seated White Supremacy™.
BMI is bullshit. It doesn’t really account for variations in build, bone density etc.. if I’m actively working out, I’m lean at 240 lbs. like around 13% body fat. At 6’ 1” the charts indicate a target weight of around 165-180 lbs.. This is absurd for a man of my build, musculature and height.
AFAIK, the most accurate way to get a breakdown of body composition is through a DXA or similar body scan.
Huh. Wasn't it just the other day where Jesse was touting a scientific article which claimed to show that masks didn't work? We were told to believe that scientific paper.
But now here is a scientific paper which claims to show that exercise does not lead to living longer. This scientific paper gets mocked.
Hmm. It's almost as if you all don't give a shit about scientific rigor or peer review, and only choose to believe whatever aligns with your prejudices, and will pick and choose the scientific articles which support your prejudices to give them an unfounded air of authority.
Lol. Masks don’t work. Exercise is good.
Jeff: “whatever aligns with your prejudices.”
Do you think these “prejudices” are not well founded and observable?
Why do you do this shit, dude? Seriously. What is missing in your life?
Proper diet and exercise, to name a couple.
Relationships with unwitting children.
Masks don’t work. Exercise is good.
As absolute statements, those are not true.
Small minds cannot think beyond simplistic black/white narratives, such as "since masks are not 100% effective, therefore they are 100% useless". Similarly, "since exercise is good for some people, therefore it must be good for all people all the time".
I don't think there exists any scientific study, no matter how rigorous or meticulous, that could change your mind on any big important issue that you believe in.
"Small minds cannot think beyond simplistic black/white narratives"
That's Jeff's excuse for being obese. He's a broad thinker who has enlarged his mind on a wide range of issues.
Dude, that’s heavy.
Heavier than Fatfuck?
HONK HONK!
LOL it is hilarious how much mind space
IJessie takes up for youguys.Cancel George Washington? 40% of Democrats Approve
https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/biden_administration/cancel_george_washington_40_of_democrats_approve
But 90% would give a standing ovation to some kindly old Ukrainian gentleman who fought the Russians in WWII.
Bullshit. There’s no way it’s only 90%
Well, I factored in that at least 10% will not stand and clap for a white male under any circumstances. If for no other reason than it’s a point of ableist privilege to make sudden loud, raucous noises. Finger snaps, people.
It won't be long. He fought the noble Indigenous people in the French and Indian War, and didn't free the enslaved people he acquired until after his death.
Well keep in mind the 1619 project teaches than the purpose of the Revolution was to preserve slavery. So if you follow that logic, this guy is just an early general of the confederacy, fighting for the right to keep black people in chains.
This is why you don't allow the "well-meaning" qualifier when talking about that sort of fucking liar. They don't want to add anything to the historical record, they want to destroy it.
Umm, this article is behind a paywall. Do you have access to the article?
Here you go, Jeff.
“Umm”
I truly feel sorry for people that have to deal with you in the real world.
So you actually spent time to write a comment criticizing my use of the word "Umm"?
Yes, yes I do think you do choose to stalk me and troll me.
In 2013 Arizona tried to enforce regulations requiring citizens to vote. State law requires citizenship to vote for state positions. This is already a requirement of federal voting. But in 2013 democrats sued Arizona over proof of citizenship. The argument was the Federal Ballots dont require proof, just a simple check box claiming you are a citizen. Very tough requirements.
Recently Arizona moved to force Arizona election officials to cross reference those who registered woth federal only ballots using federal forms against databases to confirm citizenship. This requirement is only for state officials, not citizens. Last year the Biden DoJ sued to even stop this practice.
Why is this important? 5600 people voted in the last elections with the federal forms. And now the state can't even cross check their citizenship against databases despite this already being federal requirements.
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/elections/least-5600-federal-only-ballots-cast-az-2020-general-election-without-us
The most secure election in history that no one has ever really looked into.
Get rid of the democrats. Really.
"Unwise response to a Craigslist personal ad." Story of my life.
That implies there is a wise responce to a Craigslist personal ad
A classic. Possibly Shackford.
https://imgur.com/TMwxBsb
It is about time that Reason post an article regarding something in Florida. They must have a soft spot for DeSantis.
It doesn't even make sense at this point, given that Haley is starting to poll ahead of him.
But then again, anyone not named Trump won't win anything.
Haley is being funded by a Koch backed group. You won't see much criticism here. Just enough they can post how they don't play favorites. Probably 1 article against her.
It's still punching down when DeSantis isn't even her chief opponent.
Here's some good news for the Haley libertarians.
https://www.zerohedge.com/military/top-defense-official-us-can-handle-middle-east-russia-china-operations-all-once
The US military couldn’t handle Afghanistan or the China balloon.
Your comment has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation.
Da comrade. VVP pays me 50 kopek per post. I save them up to purchase mushrooms and Tula gingerbread.
Just don't leave your laptop anywhere that Rudy Giuliani can get his hands on it.
Yep, libertarians for neocon interventionism.
Dipshit is calling me a neocon because Koch likes Haley? That's so fucking stupid it makes sense.
I’m confident he was referring to Reason and not the commentariat.
Dipshit has been calling me a neocon for a few weeks now and I didn't know why. This explains it. I just hadn’t made the connection yet.
Um, where did I call you a neocon, recently, sarc? Put the bottle down and sober up.
Wasn't talking about you. You're not a dipshit.
You weren't mentioned in the post dumbfuck.
Like Hunter you think everything is about you.
But since you asked. There is no difference in policy or narratives between you, Christie, the Lincoln Party, Jennifer Rubin, etc.
You pine for the pre trump party to own the GOP which was neocon central.
You've defended the J6 commission and all the political attacks led by Cheney and Democrats.
You defended the Ukraine War like a good lil neocon before retreating to your current no opinion of it.
There is literally no difference between you and the Lincoln Party.
Hope this helps.
I defended blah blah blah... If I really defended those things I'd be defending them now instead of calling you a liar. Get a fucking life.
Are you claiming you didn’t defend US involvement in Ukraine when the war first started?
How drunk are you this afternoon? I was referring to Koch backing Nikki Haley, a known neocon and interventionist, and the fact you'll see little criticism here due to the fact Koch backs Reason and now Haley.
Not everything is about you, sarc.
Like I said above, I wasn't talking to you. I'd call you ICP or the guy with clown makeup, not dipshit.
Oof. Someone’s gonna have a rough morning.
See, Jesse thinks in terms of tribes.
If Jesse opposes mask mandates, but you criticize Jesse, that means you must support mask mandates. Even if your criticism is not about the mask mandates themselves. Because criticizing the person is equivalent to criticizing a policy position.
Similarly, Jesse opposes Nikki Haley, sarc criticizes Jesse, therefore sarc supports Nikki Haley and is a neocon. It is simple really.
Similarly, Jesse opposes Nikki Haley, sarc criticizes Jesse, therefore sarc supports Nikki Haley and is a neocon. It is simple really.
Where the fuck did you pull that from, dipshit, your massive ass? No one mentioned sarc (or even you, asshole) until sarc butt into a conversation that was mocking Reason and Koch's backing of Haley.
The victim fire is always lit under those 2.
Amusing that the first person to accuse people of playing the victim card accuses those very same people of being so unfair to the real victims, which are Trump and his minions.
Being the victim? Check.
TRUMP!!? Check.
But don’t ever accuse sarc of defending Koch funding Haley. It’s just a coincidence that he’s posting all this unrelated boilerplate nonsense in response to such criticism.
For a radical individualist, he sure does enjoy engaging in the same tribalism he decrys.
That is Jesse's MO.
LOL it is hilarious how much mind space
IJessie takes up for youguys.Horseshit. You have absolutely engaged in it.
I distinctly remember telling you to be better, which lasted all of one day (you even acknowledged that it was smart to do so).
That IS Jesse's MO whether you wish to admit it or not.
Why not demand that Jesse "be better"?
Jessie doesn't claim to be a radical individualist, you do.
Jessie doesn't defer to experts as a rule, you do.
Jessie doesn't matter to you, you do.
So, you freely admit that you choose not to hold Jesse to any standards while demanding that I live up to standards that you invent for me. Is that it?
Why shouldn't Jesse be held to any standards?
Just above, he lumped sarc in with the Lincoln Project and Chris Christie in a sweeping generalization. Do you not think that is an unfair generalization? Why not demand that Jesse "be better"?
I'm not holding you to standards I made up, I'm holding you to ones you yourself have professed.
You have stated many times how you lament how the L camp won't change for the better, but you refuse to change yourself, so how else do you expect change?
That IS Jesse’s MO
Oh look, the pot is calling the slightly off-white teapot "black".
I’m not holding you to standards I made up, I’m holding you to ones you yourself have professed.
No, you are inventing what my standards are instead of letting me define what my standards are.
You have stated many times how you lament how the L camp won’t change for the better, but you refuse to change yourself, so how else do you expect change?
This is a complete non-sequitur. "They're wrong and I'm right, but the reason why they won't change is because I am unwilling to change to be wrong"? Are you serious?
Oh and ML shows up to call me a Nazi.
Fuck off, ML.
No, you are inventing what my standards are instead of letting me define what my standards are.
Then define them. I already know what they are, so you'll be repeating yourself.
This is a complete non-sequitur. “They’re wrong and I’m right, but the reason why they won’t change is because I am unwilling to change to be wrong”? Are you serious?
You cannot expect change out of others if you refuse it for yourself.
When have you decided to hold anyone else to any standards whatsoever?
This is a bad-faith game that you are playing and I refuse to play it until you demonstrate that you are interested in applying good standards in discourse *in general*.
You cannot expect change out of others if you refuse it for yourself.
Why have you not chosen to apply this maxim to anyone else?
Why should I not conclude that this is just you trolling?
Oh and Jeff shows up to fifty-cent and whine because everyone hates him and thinks he's a creepy, Nazi fuck.
Fuck off, Creamjeff.
Then define them. I already know what they are, so you’ll be repeating yourself.
That’s the same thing as saying “If you disagree with my prejudices about you, then you’re a fucking liar!”
It’s the same shit JesseAz does every day.
Why don’t you try responding to what someone says instead of what everyone says about them?
That's why I say these comments are like middle school.
Just above, he lumped sarc in with the Lincoln Project and Chris Christie in a sweeping generalization. Do you not think that is an unfair generalization? Why not demand that Jesse “be better”?
Because he sees Jesse as a member of his political tribe, and thus above criticism. Whereas we are "other" which is to be treated with bad faith.
Right. For some reason no one on his tribe is held to any standards whatsoever. It is only people on the outside who have to be held to "standards". That is nothing but a bad-faith game.
For some reason no one on his tribe is held to any standards whatsoever.
It isn't my belief that tribalism is bad. That's still you, and sarc.
That’s still you, and sarc.
If jeff is part of a political tribe, I don’t know what it is. It ain’t mine because I don’t have one. What me and jeff are agreeing on isn’t politics, it’s that JesseAz is an asshole.
Well it is politics in that people who are part of his political tribe won't say it.
It isn’t my belief that tribalism is bad. That’s still you, and sarc.
Oh, so now we get right down to it. You don't hold Jesse to any standards because he's on your tribe and you are totally okay with ignoring the bad behavior of the people on your tribe. So your demand that I adhere to some fictional version of my standards that you hold in your head is nothing but bad-faith trolling on your part. You have no intention of honoring these standards as anything worth valuing, only as using them as clubs against the people outside of your tribe.
Tell you what. Once you start placing value in some ethical standard *for its own sake*, and start applying that ethical standard *to all people* regardless of tribe, then we can start talking about my purported ethical lapses. Until that time, fuck you.
"If jeff is part of a political tribe, I don’t know what it is."
These guys. In every possible way.
And here's yours, Sarcasmic.
Seek help Lying Jeffy. This is so pathetic.
Same goes for you, Troll Mac.
You keep calling me a liar, when I am one of the more honest people around here. You do absolutely nothing to call out the dishonesty of those in your own tribe. You do not care about honesty for its own sake, you only care about throwing around words like "Lying Jeffy" as an insult. At least ML has the panache to take the insults up to eleventy and to call me a Nazi. Just do that why don't you? It has the same meaning as far as you are concerned.
Once you start caring about honesty as a virtue independent of the person speaking, then maybe we can have a civil conversation.
Why have you not chosen to apply this maxim to anyone else?
Because I don't care to change anyone's mind, that's you, as evidenced by your persistence in trying to ASCKUALLY ML and Jesse and the rest of the right.
Why else would you drop a link downthread about how you lament how R's think?
Because I don’t care to change anyone’s mind
Then why the fuck are you here in the first place? To troll?
To express my opinions, obviously.
Jeff, are you here to change people’s minds?
If so, how many minds do you think you have changed?
Jeff, are you here to change people’s minds?
If so, how many minds do you think you have changed?
Looks to me like his role is to be a punching bag for Trumpian nitwits.
I’m curious what you consider a “Trumpian”. Like how are people that have criticized him, especially on policy, rabid supporters?
Speaking only for myself, I would consider "Trumpian" to include a broader category than just support for policy specifics. It is about his whole approach to politics.
If you like how he attacks people instead of policies, if you like how he demagogues and scapegoats foreigners, if you like how he
likes to divide and antagonize people who aren't totally committed to his tribe, if you like how he likes to portray himself as some brave defender of American virtue while everyone else are mere "vermin" who need to be rooted out and purged, then that qualifies you as "Trumpian" in my book even if you disagree with him on a few specific policies.
Saying "I like everything that Trump does except I don't like his one bump stock ban, therefore you can't call me a Trump supporter" doesn't cut it. If you don't want to be lumped in with the Trump crowd then you have to give a more substantive and forceful rejection of not just some of his more egregious policies but also what he stands for.
It's not enough to just say "I oppose the bump stock ban and tariffs". You also have to say "I also oppose his stigmatization and dehumanization of foreigners, I also oppose his vilification of fellow American citizens as 'vermin' whose only 'sin' is not supporting him and his giant ego, I also oppose his constant whining and victimhood about how supposedly unfairly he is being treated when he is being held to the same standards as every other president".
Opposing the bad policy is only step 1.
Like how are people that have criticized him, especially on policy, rabid supporters?
Like people who like overreact to criticism of the guy or his fan club.
The drunk pussy and the fatfuck pedo groomer are both whining about the daily beatings they receive here for being worthless leftists. Instead, they should take it in down the way to WaPo. Places inhabited by many of their fellow travelers’.
Or they could just enter into a murder/suicide pact.
“Speaking only for myself, I would consider “Trumpian” to include a broader category than just support for policy specifics. It is about his whole approach to politics.”
I appreciate Lying Jeffy, in a rare instance of honesty, admitting that Trumpian means anyone he doesn’t like.
Not what I said, Troll Mac, but that is par for the course for you.
Tell you what. Once you start placing value in some ethical standard *for its own sake*, and start applying that ethical standard *to all people* regardless of tribe, then we can start talking about my purported ethical lapses. Until that time, fuck you.
It isn't my fault that you cannot remember what you said. I even gave you the opportunity to define yourself in a *higher* standard and you instead came down to the same level you hate.
Thanks, this is one of the funnier Lying Jeffy threads in awhile.
No, you gave me the "opportunity" to give you a weapon to beat me with.
Again, once you start taking seriously the principle that you claim to care about, then we can talk. But if you are only going to apply those 'principles' to me and not to anyone else, then you have made it clear that you do not value them as principles at all, only as weapons.
He knows I wasn't talking about you because you're not a dipshit.
No one was talking about you. Now fuck off you drunk pussy.
Holy shit sarc was drunk as fuck again today.
Vices are not crimes. What people buy and sell each other should be up to them. What you choose to take or not take should be up to you. There's enough real crime in the world that it should keep the government busy.
While committing many crimes does keep it busy, the government still feels it has enough time to interfere with individuals.
unwise response to a Craigslist personal ad seemingly posted by a juvenile.
Raise your hand if a fed being busted on underage sex crimes surprises you.
this is the best timeline. cant wait for all the shrieking and head exploding to come
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/people-have-spoken-elon-musk-restores-x-account-alex-jones-after-user-poll
Once again voters are are a danger to democracy.
How dare they do what the customers want?
Hey, long overdue. Glad to see Musk actually follow through with his endorsement of free spe ch.
And then he whines when advertisers don't want their ads placed directly next to content from no-shit Nazis.
You mean like the time Media Matters figured out how to game the system to make it happen?
The point is, if Elon Musk really is trying to be a 'free speech absolutist', it means giving over his platform to some truly vile people, one of whom is a guy like Alex Jones. Also, some real no-shit Nazis. People, and companies, who have reputations that they monetize and wish to protect, will make the logical choice to choose not to associate with vile people and no-shit Nazis.
He told them to go fuck themselves.
Seig Heil or clickbait seems like a bad choice for you.
But per usual, business will chose to do amoral capitalism.
After all, there are no shareholders with Twitter anymore.
But per usual, business will chose to do amoral capitalism.
You are obviously an "enemy of the present capitalist economic system with its exploitation of the economically weak, with its injustice in wages, with its immoral evaluation of individuals according to wealth and money instead of responsibility and achievement".
Good to know where your ideology comes from.
If there is a market to be had, someone will pursue it for profit.
Hence why Jeff's charge that business will shy away from Nazis is laughable.
Also, some real no-shit Nazis.
True: anti-capitalist collectivists like you are still tolerated on X. But that's the price we pay for freedom. And the antidote to free speech from vile creeps like you is more free speech.
What, nothing about Alex Jones, the guy who was sued into oblivion because he made some very horrible accusations regarding dead children at Sandy Hook?
Interesting who you choose to denounce and who you choose not to denounce.
I have nothing to say about Alex Jones because I have never listened to him, I don’t know what he has said, and I don't know what his views are.
I do know what you say and what your views are. That’s why I denounce you.
"I have nothing to say about Alex Jones because I have never listened to him"
Neither has Jeff, but when ActBlue and Media Matters tell him that saying mean things on the internet should be banned, Creamjeff demands that it be banned.
Showing young kids porn in school is still cool though.
I have nothing to say about Alex Jones because I have never listened to him, I don’t know what he has said, and I don’t know what his views are.
I don't believe you. He's been in the news enough for most news-savvy people to know of the horrible things that he has said. I think instead you'd rather not be called out for implicitly supporting Alex Jones' vile speech over whatever you imagine I believe (and guess what, ML is wrong, I'm not really a Nazi).
and guess what, ML is wrong, I’m not really a Nazi
Walk, talk, act like a duck, etc.
You may continue to fuck off, ML
I don’t believe you. He’s been in the news enough for most news-savvy people to know of the horrible things that he has said.
Well, this may surprise you, but I don't actually follow "the news" like you apparently do. I have a narrow range of topics I care about and subscribe to.
I think instead you’d rather not be called out for implicitly supporting Alex Jones’ vile speech
So your belief is that anybody who criticizes you but doesn’t simultaneously criticize (person X) must be an implicit supporter of (person X)?
As I was saying: I don’t know anything Alex Jones has said or written. I do know the vile, irrational, stupid things you produce on a daily basis. Hence, I condemn you.
So your belief is that anybody who criticizes you but doesn’t simultaneously criticize (person X) must be an implicit supporter of (person X)?
Since I started this discussion with a comment about Alex Jones' vile speech, and in response you decided to ignore his speech and launch into a diatribe about my supposedly 'vile' speech - which, no matter how much you may disagree with it, is not nearly as horrible as the crap that spews out of Alex Jones' piehole - then yeah I think it's a fair conclusion.
So do you also think that the dead kids at Sandy Hook were fake, and the grieving parents were crisis actors?
"You may continue to fuck off, ML"
Suck my sack, you angsty Nazi.
If the real Antifa from the 30's were around they'd be chasing your fat ass with a Luger and some rope.
Hey, maybe ML thinks the dead kids were faked and the grieving parents were crisis actors. It wouldn't surprise me.
Since I started this discussion with a comment about Alex Jones’ vile speech, and in response you decided to ignore his speech and launch into a diatribe about my supposedly ‘vile’ speech
Well, as I was saying: I have nothing to say about Alex Jone's speech because I don't know it.
I do know your speech, and vile as it is, I believe even you should be permitted on Twitter.
Interesting how you have consistently come down on the side of pedophiles, or outright white knighted for them at every turn over the last several years of your shitposting here.
Hey ML, why don't you call me a Nazi again. Will that improve your virtue-signaling cred among your tribal pals?
Poor jeff
I already did, because you really are a Nazi. Socially and economically.
Nazi Nazi Nazi!
Keep using and abusing the word and pretty soon it loses all meaning.
And then the real no-shit Nazis run loose and do real Nazi things.
Of course you'd probably like that.
"real no-shit Nazis run loose and do real Nazi things."
Like breaking the windows of Jewish businesses and assaulting Jews in the streets? Like teaching racism in schools? Like trying to imprison political opponents? Like censoring political speech?
All reasons why I call you and your party "Nazis", Jeffy.
No, YOU'RE the Nazi
*in crowd voice* OOOOH
*spooky fingers*
We don’t care if he calls you a Nazi or not. Unlike you, non leftists aren’t part of a hive mind. But you couldn’t possibly understand that.
"Also, some real no-shit Nazis."
Yes, and Reason has let you comment here too, Nazi.
I confer it likely that Jeffy got the shit bear out of him l. A regular basis when he was in school. As he is probably an underdog times more excruciating to tolerate in person than he is here.
Yeah, vile people are still allowed to speak. Nobody is required to pay attention to them if they don’t want to.
If you don’t like seeing Alex Jones’ content, just block the motherfucker. It’s not rocket science. If people who see Alex Jones’ content see an ad, it’s probably because they wanted to see Alex Jones and don’t think negatively of the product as a result.
Are asdvertisers on quote as actually saying that is the reason?
https://www.reuters.com/technology/ibm-suspends-ads-x-after-corporate-ads-appeared-next-pro-nazi-content-2023-11-16/
Love to see you hypocrite Nazi's show that level of concern over antisemitic rants on TikTok, and Uighur slaves assembling IBM products, as they have over your Media Matters race hoax on Twitter.
In other words, the advertising execs have a hissy fit over free speech.
They had a hissy fit over being associated with Nazis. And understandably so.
Telling them to fuck off for falling for Media Matters bullshit isn’t whining.
For ITL if he stops by. We're Number One! We're Number One!
https://cms.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/2023-12-10_09-08-47.jpg?itok=85ThEOJ7
$200M is all it takes to crack the top 12? I feel like some politicians are sandbagging.
Heh. Pritzker is a rich fat fuck. Did you hear about the protest yesterday shutting down the Kennedy Expressway?
Not yet, I'll search it. But there is no level of lunacy in Chi Town that could surprise me at this point.
Didn't they just reopen it after the construction? And these assholes shut it down again? This is no way to win hearts and minds.
Yep, file it under "how to win friends and influence people."
https://abc7chicago.com/protest-in-chicago-today-palestinian-traffic-kennedy-expressway/14158985/
I don't have a problem with people who made their money in the private market and then entered politics.
I despise people who (1) made their money through politics (Biden, Pelosi, etc.), or (2) who inherited their money or slept with a rich guy to get it (Pritzker, Jobs, etc.).
Here's the thing. The purpose of the Federal Analogues Act is not to ban any specific substances, but the behavior of selling any substances to get people high. Which is why the act in question contains the phrases "to the extent intended for human consumption" and "Whether the defendant knew or should have known the substance was intended to be consumed by injection, inhalation, ingestion, or any other immediate means."
So, to say that:
. . . is to say that they clearly violated the law.
Now, it shouldn't be illegal to sell substances to get people high, and it's unconstitutional that Congress has done so. But whining the Feds won't tell people which substances they can legally sell to get people high is missing the whole point in both directions.
Boo!
So, how many of you will be subscribing on day one?
https://deadline.com/2023/12/tucker-carlson-subscription-website-promises-exclusive-content-1235660213/
When are you going to subscribe to http://www.rasmussenreports.com?
He’s already CEO of NAMBLA International Holdings.
Media Matters paying you is good, but Tucker moving to a subscription model is bad?
Is this the fourth or fifth time tonight that ML has called me a Nazi?
Why don't you do it again for good measure. So you can earn some more virtue-signaling points from your tribe.
No, but you really are an actual, honest-to goodness Nazi...
They are basically like the people selling questionably made liquor during Prohibition.
Drug laws are wrong, but so is selling poison to people knowing they are going to take it without being warned it's extremely bad for them.
Are you suggesting that the vaccines should have had a trigger warning?
What I said about these people also applies to people pushing untested, dangerous vaccines:
In a libertarian society, vile men like that wouldn’t be prosecuted under vague drug laws, they would be bankrupted for several lifetimes by product liability lawsuits and spent the rest of their miserable lives in indentures servitude.
Iirc, the vaccine immunity was not against covid but its makers from prosecution.
If the DEA's chemists couldn't agree with each other about substantial similarity, what hope would a normal person have? What does the phrase even mean?
It means that people are using it like an illegal drug and that its chemical structure is similar to an existing illegal drug. There may be gray areas, this is not one of them.
They knew people were smoking and inhaling a chemical bouquet they mixed themselves in what can charitably be called rustic conditions. But the feds come across here as more dangerous, mercurial, and unethical than their targets.
No, they don't. If people sell clean drugs with known effects, that's one thing. Experimentation for profit with new chemicals on live, desperate drug addicts is quite another and entering Mengele territory.
In a libertarian society, vile men like that wouldn't be prosecuted under vague drug laws, they would be bankrupted for several lifetimes by product liability lawsuits and spent the rest of their miserable lives in indentures servitude.
The Republican mindset, in one chart
https://jabberwocking.com/the-republican-worldview-in-one-chart/
And yes, Kevin Drum is a lefty, but he has a point. How much of the modern Republican worldview is based on just plain ignorance? For example, 65% believe that Christians face a lot of discrimination. That is not even close to true. Christians get the most preferential treatment of any religion in this country. But if you thought you *were* part of a persecuted minority, would you gravitate towards the demagogue promising to "eradicate" the "persecution" of Christians? Of course you were. And all the rest of us would just be left scratching our heads.
For example, 65% believe that Christians face a lot of discrimination.
John 15: 18-21
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me.
And there are dozens of those verses in the same source.
If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
Huh but I was told that Christian nationalism was not a thing.
It isn't, not at least enough to conquer the US or it's government.
Huh but I was told that Christian nationalism was not a thing.
If you give us a definition of "Christian nationalism", then we can tell you whether it is widespread or not.
Why would I? You think my words are "vile".
In other words, you admit that talking about "Christian nationalism" is just your vile attempt to smear patriotic Christians and you are unable to defend your usage of the term.
Thanks for proving my point.
In other words, you have no sincere interest in my definition of anything and come here only to smear me and call my speech 'vile'.
Jeff is literally using a verse from a text where Jesus tells his disciples that his kingdom is not of this world as an example of… wait for it… cHriStiAn nAti0nALiSm.
Wow.
“My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jewish leaders. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
There’s ignorant and then there’s Jeff ignorant.
Do you mean people of Christian faiths that hold nationalist beliefs? Or some bullshit term that you Marxists made up to malign patriotic Americans?
The Republican mindset, in one chart
Yes, and for the most part they are factually correct.
And on the few points they are not factually correct, they are "truthy" in the progressive sense.
Umm, when most of the items on the list are matters of opinion, they cannot be "factually correct".
"Illegal immigration is a serious problem" is a matter of opinion, not fact./
Tell that to folks living in border towns. Or NYC.
Quinnipiac poll from 6 Dec says eighty-five percent of NYC registered voters are either very concerned (64%) or somewhat concerned (21%) that the city will not be able to accommodate the migrants.
Over sixty percent agree with the mayor’s recent statement that the surge of migrants could destroy the city.
The mayors of New York and Chicago would like to have a word.
Enough of a serious problem to put it at the top of the list at 92% of people reporting it as such? I don't think so.
It’s objectively true, you fat fucking piece of shit. Only a profoundly dishonest global Marxist like you would argue otherwise.
My point is more that, thanks to Fox News and Donald Trump and the rest of the conservative ecosphere, this is what Republicans think of the world. They believe Christians are widely discriminated against. They believe Biden stole the election. They believe COVID came from a Chinese lab. They believe we’re in a recession. Virtually all them believe the country is “out of control.”
Wait, what? There are still people who think COVID was the cross-mojination of a rare PokeMon? There are still people that walk by the thousands of boarded up storefronts and think because you can still buy an imported flat screen for $299 that America is economically just fine?
I think that there are people who think that we are not yet certain, and we may never be certain, how precisely the SARS-CoV-2 virus originated, which IMO is the only rigorously supportable position. Those who are *utterly convinced* that the virus MUST HAVE COME from the Wuhan lab, are most likely to be Republicans. That's the polling, anyway.
That’s funny shit.
He was only a hair’s breadth away from telling us that it came from a Chinese farmers market because Chinamen can’t resist eating bats and pangolins.
resigned from the agency under a cloud related both to his work habits and to his unwise response to a Craigslist personal ad seemingly posted by a juvenile.
Is this Reason's flowery description of M.A.P. behavior?
Perhaps Pluggo and Jeffy could opine?
It's a whole lot easier and a lot less complicated just to go get a real, normal job and not do drugs.
Yea yea, I know they're fun. And we all love freedom from government interference. But when you know the things they're GOING to send you to jail for, why do them?
Fight the law, absolutely. Work to have it overturned if that's what you so strongly believe in. Protest, seek office, whatever. But in the meantime, whining about the law while breaking it isn't going to accomplish anything.
It's not worth the high. Why anyone keeps chasing after it is frankly beyond me. Chase it after you've changed the law, not before.
Here ya go, boys. The "real news" for you, not that lame Reuters or NPR bullshit. With the "truth tellers" of Alex Jones, Vivek Ramaswamy, and Andrew Tate. Brought to you by Elon Musk.
https://www.thewrap.com/alex-jones-returns-elon-musk-andrew-tate-vivek-ramaswamy/
I don't agree with preventing a defendant from testifying to anything relevant to the case. Whatever steps the defendants took to comply with their understanding of the what the law required of them should always be allowed. Let the jury decide if the explanation is credible or not.
I hated it when the feds would bust weed dispensaries and bar any talk of being compliant with state medical laws and this is up the same alley. Does not the right to a fair trial include a right to simply tell your story?
Judges are much more concerned about being "fair" to the prosecution than to the defense.