'The Science' Suffers from Self-Inflicted Political Wounds
A separation of science and politics might be called for.

Once upon a time, science evoked enthusiasm. Yes, cinematic mad scientists went overboard with body parts and lightning, but real-life researchers brought us innovations, insights, and improved standards of living. But, like many institutions, science got political and cult-y. Thin-skinned narcissists with government jobs hijacked the systematic pursuit of knowledge and rebranded it as an unassailable body of Truth with a capital T. They cast out as heretics well-informed critics who interpreted evidence differently. In the process, they lost the trust of a public which saw insights replaced by bossy ideologues.
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Plunging Confidence in Science
"A new Pew Research Center survey finds the share of Americans who say science has had a mostly positive effect on society has fallen and there's been a continued decline in public trust in scientists," the organization reported last week. "Overall, 57% of Americans say science has had a mostly positive effect on society. This share is down 8 percentage points since November 2021 and down 16 points since before the start of the coronavirus outbreak."
A full third of Americans say science is a wash, equally positive and negative. Eight percent say it's mostly negative. The plunge in support since the appearance of COVID-19 is no coincidence; that's when some scientists, especially those in official positions, began wielding "science" as a shield against debate and a tool for control.
It seemed reasonable in 2020 to heed widespread calls to "follow the science." With the outbreak of the pandemic why not let people versed in studying and dealing with disease set the tone? Pretty quickly, though, politicians and public health officials began justifying drastic and controversial measures such as lockdowns, mask mandates, and school closures as dictated by "the science."
"The phrase became associated with safetyism and overcaution, like people would use it sarcastically when they saw someone running through a field wearing an N95 mask," Faye Flam, a science journalist who launched the "Follow the Science" podcast and came to regret her choice of name, told The Washington Post last year. "So much is mixed up with science — risk and values and politics — the phrase can come off as sanctimonious, and the danger is that it says, 'These are the facts,' when it should say, 'This is the situation as we understand it now and that understanding will keep changing.'"
"Sanctimonious" is a good description for officials who wield "science" to shield against criticism.
"It's easy to criticize, but they're really criticizing science because I represent science," Dr. Anthony Fauci, former director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and then medical advisor to President Biden, told CBS News in 2021. "If you damage science, you are doing something very detrimental to society long after I leave."
Fauci and company "represent science," they claim, but medical experts who disagree with their takes on COVID-19, its source in a lab leak or nature, and proper pandemic responses, do not.
Heretics and "The Science"
After Elon Musk acquired Twitter (now X), he released internal documents to the press revealing "concerted efforts by various federal agencies—including the FBI, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and even the White House—to convince Twitter to restrict speech," noted Reason's Robby Soave. "According to a trove of confidential documents obtained by Reason, health advisers at the CDC had significant input on pandemic-era social media policies at Facebook as well."
Among those targeted for suppression were Jay Bhattacharya, a Stanford University professor of health policy, and Martin Kulldorff, a Harvard University professor of medicine.
"On Friday, at long last, the Fifth Circuit Court ruled that we were not imagining it—that the Biden administration did indeed strong-arm social media companies into doing its bidding," Bhattacharya wrote in September after a court victory (over suppressed speech reaching beyond the realm of public health policy). "The court found that the Biden White House, the CDC, the U.S. Surgeon General's office, and the FBI 'engaged in a years-long pressure campaign [on social media outlets] designed to ensure that the censorship aligned with the government's preferred viewpoints.'"
The rot went further than officialdom, reaching into public-facing institutions.
"High-profile political endorsements by scientific publications have become common in recent years, raising concerns about backlash against the endorsing organizations and scientific expertise," Stanford University's Floyd Jiuyun Zhang wrote earlier this year of a study of the effects of pro-Biden messaging in Nature. "Results suggest that political endorsement by scientific journals can undermine and polarize public confidence in the endorsing journals and the scientific community."
Overt politicization, after court cases, following the publication of company documents, revealed officials and experts purporting to "follow the science" while actually indulging their own preferences and suppressing dissent.
A Partisan Divide Becomes Shared Doubt
Up to this point, the eroding credibility of science was largely a partisan matter. Democrats "followed the science" to restrictive public-health policies. Republicans, who generally favored a lighter public-health touch, doubted that public health officials wrapping themselves in science as if it was priestly garb could be trusted. Surveys showed the predictable outcome.
"Confidence in science has grown among Democrats since 2018, but decreased among Republicans," the Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research reported in January 2022.
A year later, after the social media files and court cases, the same survey showed that "confidence among Democrats was back to its pre-pandemic level after a short-term surge of trust during the pandemic." Democrats expressing a "great deal" of confidence fell from 64 to 53 percent (Republican confidence plummeted from 34 to 22 percent). That result is echoed elsewhere.
"The share of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents with a great deal of confidence in scientists – which initially rose in the pandemic's first year – now stands at 37%, down from a high of 55% in November 2020," Pew noted last week. (Republicans expressing similar confidence fell from a high of 27 percent in April 2020 to 11 percent.)
Democrats remain more likely than Republicans to be confident in scientists to act in the public's best interests, and majorities of partisans of both parties as well as independents retain at least a fair amount of confidence in scientists. But an enormous amount of good will has been lost.
Last month, the Senate confirmed Monica Bertagnolli as the new director of the National Institutes of Health with a mandate to "rebuild trust in science." Jettisoning politics and refraining from using science to push policies and personal preferences would be a good start.
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99% safe and effective.
For fucks sake.
Science discerns our understanding of truth, reality.
Everything suffers from lies. Criminalize lying.
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You would be jailed for life if we did.
Not unless you or anyone else could refute anything that I’ve said proving that I lied.
Due process and all.
I’m not worried.
With all the shit you've posted that effectively comes out of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", you make Pluggo look truthful, and he's a lying sack of shit.
What does that make you fuckwit, for never being able to refute anything that I’ve said?
Hahaha
You are self-evidently a malodorous half-wit who has never had sex with a human being.
Hahaha
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I’ve proven you a liar, twice, with documentation of the Nazi mobile death squads in Ukraine.
I’m calling bullshit on that lie.
Prove it fuckwit!
Link to to where you allege that I lied and specifically describe what you think you refuted.
You won’t because you can’t you lying waste of skin.
Even flat earthers are smarter than you. They probably get more pussy too.
Hahaha
YOU prove you lie CONSTANTLY.
Haven’t you recognized me rub these fuckwits faces in their own lies for not being able to prove their claims?
And now here you go making a baseless claim that you’ll never be able to prove because it just isn’t true.
Are you just plain stupid or a pathological liar Kol Nidre boy?
I wonder where you people come from until I remember that your religion advocates lying.
The sooner we criminalize lying, the better.
Science helps us understand how things work.
The Science is a political cudgel used for bludgeoning political opponents and supporting policy preferences.
Correctly applied logic and science are the very best tools humanity has to discern truth, aka reality.
Corrupted with lies, they are not being correctly applied.
Nobody alive knows what life would be like if people didn’t lie. Try to imagine it. Every time you’ve been fucked over by anyone, you’ve been lied to. Every time you’ve been told the truth, you get to make an informed decision, a choice, with agency.
"Correctly applied logic and science are the very best tools humanity has to discern truth, aka reality."
Which would be a mystery to slime Nazi shits like you.
I’ve demonstrated that you’re a liar, Kol Nidre boy.
That's why you should never believe anything the government says. Furthermore no one should take anything the main stream media says seriously.
Hey! Great plan. Really, the logical extension of that is not to believe what anyone says is true. Assume that everyone is lying.
So in that scenario, what is the purpose of communication?
Kinda difficult to imagine how civilization would function.
Everyone already knows that you’re a liar.
Hahaha
No less important than separation of church and State is separation of science and politics, but from medicine to climate, politics has today displaced science.
Separating everything from science, correctly applying it, is the most important objective because it discerns truth, reality that all rational beings must necessarily recognize.
Politics, religion and the state all must recognize and accept science as discerning truth if they wish to be considered rational.
You mean crimilize lying wherever it occurs? As in "science"?
Wherever it occurs, yes.
In science? What makes you believe that to be true?
Correctly applied science isn’t a lie.
What should we do to shithead holocaust deniers?
Hahaha
Almost 4 years too late. This was known at the start of covid and was discussed in these comment threads. Facts were always facts, they didn't change. The Science was mocked here as The Science sought to censor and mute facts it found inconvenient. Those facts didn't change, they were hidden. Facts The Science claimed were manipulated and wrong. Yet this magazine defended the censorship under the guise of private companies. It defended and excuse The Science under the guise of facts changed. Both were bad takes to have. Science is all about questioning, and Bailey and this magazine decided to go with the narrative. Only Robby pushed questioning but solely on the lab leak theory, not the conditions The Science imposed on citizens.
Almost 4 years too late.
4 yrs. too late for being 40 yrs. too late. Lots of us know who Trofim Lysenko is. Lots of us know about the Guatemala Syphilis Experiments. Lots of us know, on a couple of levels, about the Zimbardo Prison Experiments. Still, apparently, lots of us think the 'nine most terrifying words in the English language' has an 'unless they're wearing a white lab coat or have an M.D. after their name' exception.
They are who we thought they were, and we let them off the hook.
If you want to crown them, then crown their ass!
George Floyd would be alive were it not for the lockdowns. He could have had a job. He wouldn't have had to sell the fentanyl he swallowed just prior to his arrest. He'd be going about as a normie doing normie things. Imagine all the buildings and shops still standing.
He could have become a rocket scientists and worked for Space X!
Saint George of fentanyl is now an icon stupidity instead.
He’d probably be president of mars by now.
The very first thing to consider when learning about science (or anything else for that matter) is the politics of the person. If you like their politics then what they say is true and factual. If you don’t then everything they say is a lie. Everything is to be judged by politics. That ranges from the food we eat to the toilet we shit it out into.
Poor sarc.
Full of incite with absolutely no insight, as usual.
A reflection of your post.
Do not stare into the empty abyss of his mind.
I don't know, I think is this is one of the more rational and reasonable things sarc has ever posted.
When politicians of a certain flavor were making decisions and even mandates that the data was not supporting, it is fair to evaluate whether politics played a factor.
If a politician with a D after their name opposed mandatory vaxxing, mandatory masking, and mandatory lockdowns then they are on team libertarian for those. If a politician with an R after their name supported those draconian policies, then they are an enemy of team libertarian for those.
Democrats think vaccines are effective. That proves that mRNA science is bullshit.
They were initially advertised as 99% safe and effective. The percentage then started trending downwards. There is a compilation video of this evolving narrative using clips from MSM with Grieg’s In the Hall of the Mountain King in the background. It felt like, “You have to take the jab to find out what is in the jab.”
Doesn't mean it's 0% effective, which seems to be the consensus in these comments.
Seems to be in which comments, specifically? I don’t see anyone saying that.
Are there 0% negative side effects? Should workers that refused the jab have been terminated?
I didn't say that.
Sarc, both of those are questions. I did not attribute either to you; I asked you what your position in each of those is.
Most things have side effects, and absolutely not.
Do you believe the mrna covid vax has potentially deadly side effects/aide effects that lead to death?
Like I said, most things have side effects. I've seen varying reports on deaths caused by the vaccine, but they mostly look like correlation to me. Doesn't mean there is zero risk, but from what I can tell you'll win thousands off a scratch ticket before you are killed by the covid vaccine.
Do you think folks should get the booster shots?
That’s a personal decision. I got the first jab to keep my job. I chose not to get the booster.
Do you think government officials that made getting the vax mandatory for employees to remain employed should face discipline?
I've never thought about it in those terms. And I'm not starting now. Ttyl, back to work.
So qualified immunity for the apparatchiks?
Not going there because I know anything other than "Hang them!" will be seen by the resident idiots as complete, total, unquestioning support for everything they don't like.
I oppose their current qualified immunity, regardless of what other internet users may or may not type. Government bad covid actors should face civil litigation and criminal charges.
All I'll say is mens rea should apply to everyone, even people in government.
Hopefully, if that occurs, the “I was just following orders” excuse is rejected.
I don’t think people should have been fired for not vaxxing, I think that’s fucked up, but private employers are free to fire over that I suppose. However, it seems particularly egregious that the fed gov did so…seems like a different thing to me, especially given the short duration of testing involved and reasonable skepticism over effectiveness and potential side effects.
think that’s fucked up, but private employers are free to fire over that I suppose.
Private companies were coerced by states and the feds. If you held a federal contract? Your employees better be vaxxed. Previous contract terms be damned.
Yeah, that’s fucked up too. Obviously.
Private employees were being pressured. Both through HHS mandate threats and through insurance companies due to government regulators.
Which is similarly wrong as the gov pressuring social media to censor speech.
Because we "potentially" could come into contact with a federal contract, even though we're not federal employees, the company I work for mandated that we get the vaccine. I told them to get bent, but most people got the jab.
And how many companies didn't want to face legal or regulatory hassling and said "We follow the CDC". Our public school districts also followed the CDC because it was a safe harbor from a legal perspective.
The giverment set the standards and the idiot woke HRs followed them.
Define effective. Democrats and similar political parties in other countries were enacting policy assuming the vaccines were inhibiting the spread of the disease which what it was never designed for. It was never tested for that.
Nom statistics were looking at the data from day 1 and saw the issues. They noted liability was removed from the vaccines. Data was hidden. Deaths were over counted. Death was age related and matched standard population death statistics. Berenson was out their early reviewing the evidence. And it was all hidden.
With people like sarc claiming masks worked even if not 100% effective, so it was fine to force them. Defending attacks against Australian covid camps. Defending censorship against the data. Etc.
Sarc said this and sarc said that, you're like a teenage girl spreading lies to make yourself more popular.
His post is accurate.
This was a beauty
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TSZMtSPX3iE&pp=ygUoVmFjY2luZSBpbiB0aGUgaGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgbW91bnRhaW4ga2luZw%3D%3D
Epic video.
Defending attacks against Australian covid camps.
Oh, right. I remember that. You were calling them "concentration camps" to imply that they were places where people were sent to die and the Australian government was run by Nazis. When I pointed out the fact that you were dishonestly manipulating language to compare quarantines to death camps, your reaction was to accuse me of supporting forced quarantine.
In other words you're a liar as always.
If voting for Biden meant lockdowns and voting for Trump meant no lockdowns, who would you vote for?
Sarc doesn’t care. He’s just here to provoke.
The Australian government IS run by nazis. The police were their Brown Shirts.
Why am I not surprised that Sarc wouldn’t be bothered if native peoples were locked up in camps.
Your forgetting the best claim. Not wearing a mask is like driving around with a bear in your trunk
Even better: the same idiot trying to defend it later on.
He still defends it to this day.
https://reason.com/podcast/2021/10/25/freedom-responsibility-and-coronavirus-policy/#comment-9176512
Lol
I know, right? I should have just said that masks are a tool of oppression and subjugation that have no value other than to hold Americans in a state of bondage. That would have earned me so much praise around here, wouldn't it?
You should have compared quarantines to Nazi concentration camps, declared the vaccine to be 0% effective, and touted the merits of hydroxychloroquine.
That's how you get praise around here.
Do you ever get tired of being a crybaby asshole?
Mandates ARE a tool of oppression….
Also, the kinds of masks people were buying, making, and wearing were never going to stop the spread of an airborne virus that is smaller than the weave of the fibers. This was known from day one, thus no real value to the everyday person.
(I’ll also note that even properly fitted N95 masks won’t necessarily stop it.)
Masking (viral breeding ground), six foot spacing (meaningless), and controlled access points (virus bottlenecks) all contributed to maximizing viral load and contamination. The exact opposite of what was "intended".
What if the bear in the trunk was wearing a mask?
It would bearly make a difference.
That is the polar opposite to what some pandaring to the Science! cabal have suggested.
The fact that the virus was out in the wild literal months before it was reported, and was obvious from data that it was airborne, means it had already gone through the population before any "mitigating" procedures were mandated. Which means this whole thing was bullshit from the start.
Let me correct that for you sarc.
"The very first thing *I* consider when learning about science (or anything else for that matter) is the politics of the person. If *I* like their politics then what they say is true and factual. If *I* don’t then everything they say is a lie. Everything is to be judged by politics. That ranges from the food we eat to the toilet *I* shit it out into."
It's amazing how much you can learn about a person when you learn that people who make no sense are self-projecting.
Senate confirmed Monica Bertagnolli as the new director of the National Institutes of Health with a mandate to "rebuild trust in science."
And she promised to do this by focusing on equity. So we all know how well that is going to go.
Nothing spells trust in science like forcing labs to be staffed by Benetton ad models
Diversity hires who failed to pass even standard math and science tests but that's ok, it's all for DIE.
LOL, "Rebuild trust with us, $29.99.":
I think that many people distrust "The science" but still believe in the benefits of scientific achievements.
I would compare it to people who believe in God or the supernatural, but reject the formal church.
The way to bring trust back is not to silence dissent or condemn people but to act in a trustworthy way.
The Founding Fathers were deists but rejected formalities of the church.
The Founding Fathers were deists but rejected formalities of *The* Church.
Worth noting that a Church provided a very different role in their time. A role they didn't overwhelmingly participated in/did not disapprove of.
Whether they went to meditate, went to interact with their community, went to morally rectify themselves, or other isn't really or necessarily knowable but, they absolutely were deists, overwhelmingly chose to show up on Church roles, overwhelmingly married and had kids with deists... They may not have believed the birth of Christ to be supernatural, but they also didn't reject the notion of meeting family for Christmas observing Easter ceremonially out of hand either.
Probably a good place to post Hayeks essay in scientism.
https://contemporarythinkers.org/friedrich-hayek/essay/scientism-study-society/
Also his presence of knowledge essay.
The recognition of the insuperable limits to his knowledge ought indeed to teach the student of society a lesson of humility which should guard him against becoming an accomplice in men’s fatal striving to control society—a striving which makes him not only a tyrant over his fellows, but which may well make him the destroyer of a civilization which no brain has designed but which has grown from the free efforts of millions of individuals.
https://mises.org/wire/hayek-difference-between-science-and-scientism
The little leprechaun in the picture belongs in jail.
If the particular jail happens to have a morgue, sure.
A Ceausescu moment.
Don't blame him, it was those damn raccoon dogs.
Remember folks, don't judge policy based upon the science. That's totally backwards. You're supposed to judge science based upon policy. If you don't like the policies put forth in the name of something based in science, then the science itself is political and wrong. It couldn't be the case that there's something to the science and the policies are wrong. Nope, you've got to throw out the baby with the bathwater or you're one of them.
Stop trying to cover up the fact you supported all the misguided policies regarding Covid.
You guys can repeat that lie over and over but it doesn't make it true.
But it is.
Facts changed! You were a conspiracy theorist! He was right to push government narratives and defend censorship! Trust The Science!
Only people worse than him on the issue were JFree and Jeff.
The lack of self awareness in this post is remarkable...
The problem is not that people don't trust 'science'. The problem is that science is supposed to be a process for discovering what is factual and what isn't, and not a philosophy or doctrine.
The problem is that our supposed betters decided what the conclusion should be before doing the actual process, and manipulated data or outright lied to people. So it isn't that people don't trust the data or the facts, they don't trust the people delivering the alleged data or supposed facts.
Using science as post hoc justification for bad policies doesn't mean the science is wrong. Just means that the people making the policies are assholes.
It's not the science that was wrong, it's that the unelected bureaucrats fraudulently misrepresented it, and the entire media and half of the electorate gladly went along with the deception.
Once again, 'science' vs. 'The Science (tm) '
That's a good way to put it.
Except you don't get what he posted. When he claims that the science was correct, he means the icky science that got censored early on during this whole cluster fuck.
I'll let him decide what he posted, not you.
Amen.
Remember folks, don’t judge policy based upon the science
That's EXACTLY what you stupid COVIDians wanted.
sarc: "Don't bother looking at the science behind the mirror, guys. Just trust us."
normies: "The policy is anti-science."
sarc: "Why do you hate The Science!?"
Big deal. It's 8:30 AM and still no HyR-originated content about Milei's decisive win in Argentina. I think it's going to be a hard pill for the bloggers to swallow, given that everywhere else people are connecting Trump with libertarians via Milei.
Guessing a discussion with mild acknowledgement of the socialist Peron party who had good intentions and a warning of far right populism with a demand Millei only work on the economy.
I'll lay out "their problem". For years HyR bloggers have ignored the weight of commentariat to the contrary, and have portrayed Trump as at best a neutral choice given the alternatives, and at worst a very bad phenomenon. Meanwhile most of the commentariat evaluate Trump as the closest thing we've ever gotten — better than we could've expected — to a radical libertarian tendency with a mass following.
Now analysts all over the world proclaim Milei (as he does himself) a radical libertarian, and connect him with Trump. Recently Milei and Trump have made mutual endorsements, and Milei has adopted the slogan Make Argentina Great Again.
How will HyR bloggers deny, or at least finesse, this problem? They can't completely ignore it. Will they just take as axiomatic that libertarianism and populism can't mix or overlap? Will they question Milei's libertarianism or the various analysts' analysis? Will they take the mutual endorsements between Trump and Milei as mere politics, i.e. meaningless, insincere fluff? Will they insist MAGA is completely different depending whether the first A is Argentina or America? Will they paint the followers of either or both as desperate or deluded, blinded by wishful thinking?
Um...are you suggesting that Reason which has published several complimentary articles on Milei prior to election, is now going ignore him because others have likened him to Trump?
Lol. 100% think you'll be wrong on that. My guess, Liz mentions it in the links, Daniel Ressback(?) writes an article and Zach publishes a video.
They won’t ignore him, but they’ll try to de-link him from Trump. And possibly from libertarians!
As they probably should, since he and Trump have very little in common besides outsider status. Trump is no libertarian, Milei actually appears to be.
Trump is as libertarian as he can be in the USA and still have a mass following. There is no realistic choice that’s more libertarian, in fact it was lucky we got one as libertarian as this. He may pave the way for more libertarian contenders in the future, but that’s going to take a few years if it happens at all.
What the USA has that Argentina doesn't is political stability. It's very hard to move the USA off center politically compared to Argentina. Ostentatious ideology is rejected in the USA. Most people want to vote for "the man", a pragmatist who decides everything case by case with no obvious connecting principles. Principles are suspect. You can move the USA, but only by not saying you're moving it and not appearing to have any ideology.
What this means is that to get anywhere, American libertarians have to have plausible deniability. They have to be able to point to some deviations that “disqualify” them from being radical libertarians, so they can be acceptably non-doctrinaire. They can be very libertarian but must eschew the label and always keep some of these “proofs” that they’re not.
And on the points where you're libertarian, you can be extremely so. See if this doesn't convince you Trump could qualify as a stealth libertarian: https://committeetounleashprosperity.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/CTUP_BurdenisBack_ComparingRegulatoryCosts.pdf
Trump is a libertarian, but given that Congress is controlled by the Uniparty, and running as a libertarian in the US is a losing proposition, he recognized the limitations of what he could do. He did two things: he forced the RINOs to pass a tax cut package (they promised, but didn't really want to), and he deregulated significantly via EO (thanks to Congress' choice to not write the laws and delegate it to the bureaucrats in the executive branch). Those changes were hugely successful in improving the economy, but all undone by Biden on day 1, with the expected results.
There were several articles on the libertarian winning in Argentina, and as many here expected, Reason didn't compare him to Trump, but WaPo, Huffington Post and others did.
It didn't help that many people around here, most notably Jesse, would abuse the normal uncertainty found in a scientific article and manipulate it to suit his preferred outcome.
If he liked the conclusion of a scientific article, he (and others) would herald and trumpet the conclusion, downplaying the uncertainty inherent in any scientific study.
If he disliked the conclusion of a scientific article, he (and others) would magnify the uncertainty inherent in any scientific study and nitpick it to death, while trashing the legitimate scientific outcomes of the study.
Frankly, Jesse was just the mirror image of Fauci in this regard. Fauci wanted us to blindly accept the "science" that he chose for us. Jesse would cherry pick the articles that produced the messages he liked and ignore/trash the ones he didn't like even if they were of genuine quality. In both cases, the ends were political, not scientific.
For example, take all the studies on masks. The truth of the matter is, masks *do* work - but the conditions under which they work are highly variable. Under laboratory-controlled settings, a properly fitted mask made of the proper material can work quite well. Under normal daily use, a poorly fitted mask made of poor material will not work well, if at all. And a statistical average of all of the people using masks in all of the various contexts that masks may be used, should not be confused with the individual effectiveness of a mask in a particular setting. But just try bringing that up around here and you are labeled as a 'heretic', just as much as if you had told Fauci that the vaccine had side-effects.
Neither team covered itself in glory when it came to using science during the pandemic. Fauci & co. deserve a lot of blame for not being honest with everyone and not explaining the science. Team Red deserves a lot of blame for deliberately spreading lies about the science for the sole purpose of undermining Fauci et al., without much regard for the truth or falsity of those scientific statements.
The real long term solution here is education. If more people had the scientific literacy to know what is going on with regards to the science, they would not be so susceptible to demagogues and fraudsters who try to tell them things that aren't true for their own ideological purposes. Scientific literacy really ought to be improved in the schools.
"Under laboratory-controlled settings, a properly fitted mask made of the proper material can work quite well. Under normal daily use, a poorly fitted mask made of poor material will not work well, if at all."
Under perfect settings in a lab, the best masks work.
Under literally every other scenario, including the best masks that are fitted, masks fail. Many confounding variables that contribute but in practice they just dont.
Its not just the strawman of "well sure, the cloth hankie sitting around the neck of the bearded fat guy isnt going to work", its also that in real world usage, even if said guy shaves his beard and wears a fitted N95, outcomes dont improve. There are a multiple reasons why this is the case, but that's just how it is.
Your gaslit thinking on this issue is representative of the flaws you make in many areas of discussion, and most of them involve accepting or promoting faulty premises that either dont stand up to basic scrutiny, or that results dont support
Under literally every other scenario, including the best masks that are fitted, masks fail. Many confounding variables that contribute but in practice they just dont.
But that is my point – because there are so many confounding variables, making absolute statements like “masks work” or “masks don’t work” is just inaccurate. The most scientifically accurate statement that must be drawn on the effectiveness of masks is – It depends on the conditions. And it was wrong for Fauci et al. to demand that masks be worn in places where it clearly made no sense, like in the outdoors. But it was also wrong for people on the right to demand that masks not be worn even in places where it might have made sense, like in confined indoor spaces when transmission levels were high.
But we see around here, just like with the Fauci crowd, science took a back seat to politics and ideology, and to argue the position that masks *might* be effective is heretical and the groupthink conclusion of “masks don’t work” is now the accepted conclusion even though it is scientifically wrong, because that is the conclusion that the group demands.
Cloth and paper masks DO NOT STOP VIRUSES. Holy shit man.
There are less than a handful of conditions under which masks are useful. That is not the same as “it depends on the conditions”. In normal, everyday conditions, masks do little to nothing. But here we are, jeffy run-of-the-mill collectivist still clings to “The Science”.
Its other people's faught you were wrong because they provided you with factual information?
God your are still insufferable. Take the L.
What?
It didn’t help that many people around here, most notably Jesse, would abuse the normal uncertainty found in a scientific article and manipulate it to suit his preferred outcome.
"The normal uncertainty" of a scientific article is that the majority of scientific articles are simply wrong. You can start trusting in scientific results after dozen of independent replications over decades.
Neither "climate science" nor COVID research nor environmental science, nor much else of the science government relies on meets those criteria.
“The normal uncertainty” of a scientific article is that the majority of scientific articles are simply wrong. You can start trusting in scientific results after dozen of independent replications over decades.
That's not true. They are are not "simply wrong". They represent incremental advances in the state of human knowledge. An individual scientific article does not represent The Truth, that part is true. But it is unfair to say it is "simply wrong".
No, sadly, it is true: not only do they fail to advance the state of human knowledge, they actually hurt science by filling the scientific literature with incorrect results, leading future scientists to waste their time.
Do you have a specific example in mind?
There are some examples of scientific fraud, but they are relatively rare.
Well, you can start by reading about the replication crisis. That's only the tip of the iceberg; even papers whose experiments can be replicated are usually wrong.
The reasons for this sorry state of science are strong economic and political incentives for researchers to publish prematurely and to publish incorrect results.
I'm aware of the replication crisis. But it is also unfair to state that because the crisis exists, every journal article is wrong. I think you are just looking for a reason not to do the hard work in evaluating scientific evidence on your own. It is much easier to just rely on your ideology, your Facebook friends, and Reason commenters to tell you what to think instead of to evaluate the evidence on your own.
ut it is also unfair to state that because the crisis exists, every journal article is wrong. I think you are just looking for a reason not to do the hard work in evaluating scientific evidence on your own.
To the contrary, it is because I have done the hard work of evaluating lots of scientific evidence on my own, and because I have done so in fields where I am an expert that I have concluded that most published papers are wrong.
It is much easier to just rely on your ideology, your Facebook friends, and Reason commenters to tell you what to think instead of to evaluate the evidence on your own.
That's how you operate, not me.
To the contrary, it is because I have done the hard work of evaluating lots of scientific evidence on my own, and because I have done so in fields where I am an expert that I have concluded that most published papers are wrong.
Then you are committing a fallacy of hasty generalization.
You just can never say where you were wrong in a spot. It's obfuscation through word salad with you.
There is nothing "hasty" about my generalization. I have been a scientist for half a century.
I would also like to point out the biggest problem. The push to publish DRAMATIC results.
It's the exact same problem and effect that clickbait has had on news.
If you get a result that is dramatic and interesting, you are far more likely to get published, publicized, and referenced even if it's almost certainly wrong or even nonsensical.
Good science is typically boring.
I think you have a point. Scientists are human too, they want to make that huge discovery and be famous. But I also think that it's a little more self-correcting in the scientific publishing process than it is elsewhere - the more dramatic a discovery claims to be, the more scrutiny it gets. There have been plenty of examples of high-profile 'discoveries' that have turned out to be wrong, for a variety of reasons, and no one wants to repeat those experiences.
Fraud isn't the main problem. Read about John Ioannides's work on the problems of reproducibility of published scientific articles. It's really a pretty serious problem. There are probably lots of reasons for it, but I think a big one is the screwed up and politicized way science and academic research is funded.
And in certain fields, like (ahem) climate science, anyone wanting to be published or get grants seemingly had to self-censor any results that might not comport with the narrative.
Jeff doesn't understand science at all. Not once did I dismiss a finding based on uncertainty. I did state how they utilized statistics wrong. Such as simple binomial distributions being used as evidence of how well something works. In bayesian analysis, attempts to use a binomial distribution break down in analysis as you approach 0 or 100%. Pfizer chose to claim a 95% improvement from vaccines despite both placebo and vaccinated death rates being near zero. It was a misuse of statistics. Jeff doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about as usual.
See? You are making my point for me.
You are complaining about how Pfizer used their statistics to describe the effectiveness of the vaccine. This is what I am talking about - because the results of the study are ones that you disagreed with, you dove into the details of the study to find reasons to object to it. And with *any* scientific study, there is *always* some reason to object to it on some level, because no study can possibly control every single variable of the phenomena that the authors are trying to measure.
But when did you ever apply this same level of rigor to studies which had conclusions that you *agreed with*? When did you ever say something like, "Here's a study which demonstrated that the vaccine may be harmful for certain populations, but the study used some flawed statistical methods, so maybe we shouldn't trust it right now"? Hmm? As far as I can recall, never. And when anyone DID try to challenge those studies, you and your pals would always trumpet "peer reviewed!" and "you are just pushing a pro-vaccine narrative!!!" and other pablum.
The studies you did like - you accept with little if any criticism
The studies you didn't like - you criticize to death
That's the problem here.
Perhaps. But... a while back, the CDC decided to tweet an infographic on mask effectiveness, based on one particular study. I probably would have let it pass, but the 56% number for cloth masks had a small asterisk by it, and on the bottom it indicated that meant "not statistically significant". That asterisk made me look at the study, because how can a 56% effect not be statistically significant?
And when I looked, wow. I don't think I've ever seen a 95% confidence interval of a full one hundred percentage points before (and it's only *that* accurate if you assume that phone surveys are going to get you accurate self-reporting of mask use.) And here the CDC is, trotting out a graphic based on that. I guess "56% effective" sounds better than "we're 95% sure it's somewhere between 83% effective and negative 17% effective."
For example, take all the studies on masks. The truth of the matter is, masks *do* work – but the conditions under which they work are highly variable. Under laboratory-controlled settings, a properly fitted mask made of the proper material can work quite well. Under normal daily use, a poorly fitted mask made of poor material will not work well, if at all. And a statistical average of all of the people using masks in all of the various contexts that masks may be used, should not be confused with the individual effectiveness of a mask in a particular setting. But just try bringing that up around here and you are labeled as a ‘heretic’, just as much as if you had told Fauci that the vaccine had side-effects.
And what masks can do under ideal laboratory conditions is irrelevant for policy. That's the point: people like you are misapplying scientific results to domains and problems that they don't apply to.
That's true for economics, climate science, gender dysphoria, etc. You take a (potential) kernel of truth and spin a ridiculous tale around it, applying it to domains where it is irrelevant and meaningless, usually leaving out numerous unknown costs and benefits.
And what masks can do under ideal laboratory conditions is irrelevant for policy. That’s the point: people like you are misapplying scientific results to domains and problems that they don’t apply to.
Not "irrelevant". Just not 1:1 directly relevant. Man, you seem to have a hard time with this black/white thinking concept.
This is just like the interminable discussions we would have during the pandemic: because masks didn't work 100%, therefore they were 0% effective. That is stupid black/white thinking.
This is just like the interminable discussions we would have during the pandemic: because masks didn’t work 100%, therefore they were 0% effective.
A mask that is 95% effective is useless for a COVID-like epidemic.
Furthermore, focusing on the effectiveness of masks neglects the high, diffuse costs of mask wearing.
That is stupid black/white thinking.
Yes, you are guilty of stupid black/white thinking: you think that if something is somewhat effective against a deadly disease in a laboratory setting, that justifies imposing it on the population. You are scientifically and economically illiterate.
A mask that is 95% effective is useless for a COVID-like epidemic.
No, it is not. It is just not as effective as a 100% effective mask. There you go with your black/white thinking.
Furthermore, focusing on the effectiveness of masks neglects the high, diffuse costs of mask wearing.
That is true, but that is a different discussion.
Yes, you are guilty of stupid black/white thinking: you think that if something is somewhat effective against a deadly disease in a laboratory setting, that justifies imposing it on the population.
I never advocated for government mask mandates. Now you are just lying. But at least you admit that masks are at least "somewhat effective".
No, it is not. It is just not as effective as a 100% effective mask.
A mask that is 95% effective is only 0.5% effective after 100 exposures. I.e., it is useless.
I never advocated for government mask mandates.
You engage in the same faulty reasoning as the people who justified mask mandates with these scientific results. Whether you personally advocated mandatory masks is irrelevant.
Oh give me a break. That certain people used the science of genetics to advocate for downright evil policies like eugenics, does not make every geneticist equivalent to a eugenicist. It is the same thing here.
I'm glad we managed to dispose of your erroneous thinking about the effectiveness of masks.
I never advocated for government mask mandates.
This is the “bears in trunks” author folks.
He didn't think the government should force people to wear masks, he just said that if you're not wearing a mask you're killing countless people through your negligence and you're a horrible person.
I mean, not a huge distinction there. "Do it because I told you," isn't that far from, "You're evil if you don't do it."
You’re violating the NAP by being healthy/asymptomatic and not doing what you’re told!
You should change your name to "chemjeff pedantic individualist"
No, he's no individualist. He thinks critical race theory has merit and that people should be judged by group characteristics.
No, it's not relevant. If a policy doesn't improve outcomes, then it is garbage It doesn't matter if people can think of good reasons why it should or might work. If it fails, it fails.
And that doesn't even consider the validity of imposing such a thing on people at all, or the harms done by the policy. Proponents of mandatory masking almost never acknowledge the harm is does.
If masking worked but had second order effects, that would be a more reasonable debate. But when masks don't work at all and then ALSO have first and second order negative effects, then it's time to rethink The Science.
Fun seeing the posters wrong on every fucking issue the last few years weigh in (pun intended).
They no longer want to be the heavy.
They were just chewing the fat.
JFree still can't admit they were out smarted by a bunch of 'hicks' and 'science deniers'.
To JFree's credit, at least they still maintain that they were right all along unlike some people who now pretend they never said all the things they said over the past few years. JFree at least seems to truly believe the garbage they spouted whereas obviously some others were just parrots repeating lies and when the lies change so too does their parroting.
I wasn't outsmarted by anybody here. Not one of you has ever pointed to a single comment back then by me that indicates I was wrong about anything significant. Nor has anyone ever pointed to a single comment where I advocated the policies you say I supported then.
The way to counter a policy objective you say you don't like is to understand what specifically needs countering and make that your argument. If a policy objective of lockdowns and mask mandates is what is opposed, then oppose that.
Instead what happened among commenters here is that an elaborate alternative reality first needed to be created. First, the virus doesn't even exist. Then, it does exist and it is just the flu and everyone is already exposed. Then, the vaccine doesn't work. No wait, the vaccine is what actually killed everyone. Completely lost in that reality is arguing against lockdowns or mask mandates at the time when that needed doing. Because at that time it was far more important to instead argue that lockdowns were so catastrophic that it needed a multi-trillion spending bill with lots of loopholes and programs to begin to cover all the damage and the non-damage.
Those spending bills were what you were interested in then. You all are just completely full of bullshit. And most likely fraud. The one thing I did learn from the commenters here is that your political philosophy ain't worth a shit.
Loser.
I SURVIVED COVID
good T-shirt idea...
underneath in brackets you can have
"turns out its just the flu"
"A separation of science and politics might be called for."
Given the current financial picture of the federal government, we could eliminate the NIH, CDC, HHS, and all research grants to colleges and other organizations.
And any UN organization pretending to be science.
Govt and the political class wanted control, Fauci wanted to cover his ass for his GOF research, and big pharma wanted to make a boat load of money.
These things combined formed what amounts to a new clergy, complete with all the features of the church being in control and deciding what is good and true vs evil and false.
Science (actual science), critical thinking, and any trust in public institutions were all completely nuked in the process.
BINGO... "all the features of the church being in control and deciding what is good and true vs evil and false"
The problem is “bad” science. Not science, per se.
.
For example, climate change risk analysis has in the past been done by well-meaning amateurs, who are basically clueless when it comes to Hazard Analysis.
.
Like an example? . Did you know that in much of the USA summers have COOLED over the last 50 years. So much for “climate science.” (It’s the clouds, of course, that cause this – which a pursuit of real science would likely have uncovered.)
It's not bad science as that doesn't seem to go far enough. It's a politicized confirmation bias and groupthink masquerading as science that is creating, promoting and solidifying the false results.
I think we are basically in agreement.
That's why they changed it from global warming to climate change.
Thin-skinned narcissists with government jobs hijacked the systematic pursuit of knowledge and rebranded it as an unassailable body of Truth with a capital T.
No, that's not what happened. What actually happened is that for half a century, science and education have been financed by the government, so there is a corrupt, mutually beneficial relationship between academia, science, and politicians. Academics and scientists reach the politically desired conclusions in return for money. Academics who don't play ball with politics get excluded from lucrative positions or defunded entirely. Research topics focus on what the government wants. Well connected corporations get the government to finance their research through academia and train their staff.
This plays out across many fields. Economists want a cozy government position, preferably in the federal reserve. Climate scientists and medical researchers want continued funding. Etc.
+10000000... Well Said.
"science and education have been financed by the government, so there is a corrupt, mutually beneficial relationship between academia, science, and politicians"
'This is the situation as we understand it now and that understanding will keep changing.'" This actually was the message that I picked up from listening to Dr. Fauci. You have some points but I think there is some "right wing" bias.
There is a strong difference between what he said initially and the later parts.
His speeches, I have few problems with. His actions were different.
-Attempting to mandate an experimental vaccine that did not prevent spread through OSHA
-Deliberately lying to people about the effectiveness of masks. Either N95 masks were necessary or standard cloth was sufficient. Both cannot be true.
-Silencing of critics
-Attempting to make a pariah of the lab leak theory despite all evidence pointing to it.
-Deliberately hiding the gain of function testing funded by America in that lab.
His speeches, I have few problems with. His actions were different.
Like Obama: sounds good in speeches but turns into a vile totalitarian when put in charge.
Except his statements were lies at the time he said them but who needs facts and truth in science when there is a narrative to support.
One of the most successful social control experiments in history – Entire nations bowed, cowed, and still reeling.
Let's be clear here: you can't separate science and politics without ending substantial public funding of science. As long as public funding of science exists, scientists will reach the conclusions that their funding agencies want them to reach.
Ayuh.
Which means when policy is based on “science “ that has been paid for by the policy makers, the “science” is bad.
Opposite of what sarc claimed above.
the “science” is bad.
The science is not necessarily bad. The problem is that people making policy cherry pick what serves their interests while ignoring the rest.
Opposite of what sarc claimed above.
Your failure to separate science from politics only exemplifies my point while also showing that you don't understand it.
It’s not a failure to recognize reality.
The science is not necessarily bad. The problem is that people making policy cherry pick what serves their interests while ignoring the rest.
Since science is nearly 100% paid for by governments, there is no “rest”.
Your failure to separate science from politics only exemplifies my point while also showing that you don’t understand it.
You cannot separate science from politics in the 21st century; there is almost no science outside politics these days because it is almost all government funded and almost all conducted by government-indoctrinated practitioners.
Science by the scientific method is science. Regardless of the politics.
Science by consensus is not science. It's politics.
The problems happen when people reject the former because they don't like the politics, or they confuse the latter with actual science.
Science by the scientific method is science. Regardless of the politics.
Well, 99% of the so-called science carried out today isn't actual science then because it doesn't follow the scientific method.
Nor is it reproducible, which is sort of the whole point of 'science' as a whole. If it can't be reproduced under the same conditions, the bottom line is you were probably just wrong.
I've seen you mention this though, so you're obviously aware. It just bears repeating here.
There's a huge fad in the scientific community where they publish things that can not be falsified, which is insane to me.
"Let’s be clear here: you can’t separate science and politics without ending substantial public funding of science."
I agree, but the real solution goes back to Reason's abandoned motto of Free Minds and Free Markets, specifically free markets. In free markets, the government isn't in the business of research. Government funding of science is socialism of science.
"It is no coincidence, I am sure, that those who have the most to say about the Project are the ones who have had no direct contact with it. Which is similar to the attitude physicists have regarding gravitation or electrons — as opposed to that of the "well-informed" who read popular science. The "well-informed" think they know something about matters that the experts are reluctant to even to speak of. Information at second hand always gives an impression of tidiness, in contrast with the data at the scientist's disposal, full of gaps and uncertainties."
Stanisław Lem
It seemed reasonable in 2020 to heed widespread calls to "follow the science." With the outbreak of the pandemic why not let people versed in studying and dealing with disease set the tone?
Why not? Because no expert is an expert in everything. Doctors aren't experts at the economic and social fall-out that comes from isolation, that comes from trying to force children to wear masks and to constantly interact with masked individuals.
Beyond that, it's got obvious implications for liberty. We don't set policy based on what everyone should be doing. You have the freedom to make bad, even self-destructive choices. You have the freedom to buy way too much liquor and drink yourself into a stupid until you're too hungover to work tomorrow. That's a bad choice, it's destructive to your health, it's certainly against the best recommendation of experts, but you have freedom. Having a society where everything is dictated by experts is a society with no value because there's no freedom to make choices.
This is a principle you shouldn't have needed to learn through the pandemic, this is a principle that is true regardless what the situation is. There's nothing wrong with taking advice from experts, with getting as much information as possible. But that includes the possibility of deciding that the experts are wrong and that you can make a better choice about what is good and bad for you as an individual. So public health dictates from any kind of central authority was always going to end badly, no matter how good and honest the experts were.
Agree, but will also add -
Why not? Because the people writing and enforcing these diktats had no authority to do so. There's not a power in the constitution that gave the CDC control over evictions. No law written by Congress. None.
It seems like you are suggesting a "systems" approach.
.
But that would be "engineering" and not "science."
>>In the process, they lost the trust of a public which saw insights replaced by bossy ideologues.
the Dallas County Judge following La Ciencia is a bossy ideologue. Fauci is Lex Luthor.
Fuck Clay Jenkins.
Science has always been controversial. Some of the worst culprits in the history of suppression of new theories have been scientists and organized scientific societies. Science itself has at times been a mixed blessing socially, even when it was correct. Nevertheless, the scientific method is still the best tool for exploring the realities of the universe and producing progress towards improved living standards even given the dislocations and occasional missteps. Obviously, when government joins the efforts to suppress scientific discussion, research and discussion it is NEVER a good thing, even when government scientists turn out to be correct in their opinions. When they turn out to be wrong, it can be catastrophic!
As one noted scientist pointed out, consensus theories don't generally stop being consensus theories when a better theory comes along, they stop being consensus theories when those who have made a career out of pushing them retire and the scientists pushing the new theory rise to prominence in the field.
The "asteroid killed the dinosaurs" theory was initially dismissed because it was introduced by a geologist and not a paleontologist, despite the evidence and the timing and the logic of the new theory.
It seemed reasonable in 2020 to heed widespread calls to "follow the science." With the outbreak of the pandemic why not let people versed in studying and dealing with disease set the tone? Pretty quickly, though, politicians and public health officials began justifying drastic and controversial measures such as lockdowns, mask mandates, and school closures as dictated by "the science."
Um, is Reason still sticking to that bullshit narrative of Anthony Fauci being the drunk college friend in the back seat telling you to turn left when you should have turned right? Because it was "people versed in studying and dealing with disease set[ting the tone]..."
Anthony Fauci is so versed in dealing with disease, he invented a disease in an overseas lab and then told everyone that masks don't work (initially correct), then pivoted to Masks were magical talismans that kept tiger viruses away and claimed the vaccine was 100% safe and effective, and that he never ever once told anyone to "turn left".
My science improves your life, your science improves my life, but my science doesn't improve my life and your science doesn't improve your life.
“Out of an abundance of caution” means TOO MUCH CAUTION.
The only thing worse than "government science" is "religious science".
If you blindly "follow the science", you are the problem. The regime absolutely depends on the gullible sheep.
The basic lesson to learn from all this is: Never believe anything the government says. Fauci lied. The media lied. others in the government lied.
Anybody who called them out were demonized and even censored from Dr. Malone to Dr. Battacharya, Joe Rogan and anyone else who dared contradict the approved narrative.
The shots didn't work and they are now proven to be deadly life threatening inhuman death traps. If you have taken that ugly vaxx, you have a time bomb within you.
masks didn't work
Social distancing didn't work
Lock downs didn't work
Instead we now have millions of children behind in schools, Millions who lost their jobs and homes and a nation now 33 trillion in debt and one trillion interest payments.
Odd, how not one case of influenza was reported. Odd how people who were put on ventilator died in the thousands not to mention the deadly remdesiver vaccine. Hospitals became death camps, doctors and nurses were no different than Dr. Mengele. Governors like Cuomo and Whitmer sent elderly people to the death camp hospitals to die in the thousands, why aren't they arrested and charged with murder?
And Anthony Fauci became America's first dictator.
He needs a Ceausescu moment. To honor this fraud with accolades is a slap in the face of the American people .
Slate.com tried to give Fauci the benefit of the doubt by calling his lies "noble lies"...but did wrap up with:
Noble lies—small untruths—yield unpredictable outcomes. Nietzsche once wrote, “Not that you lied to me, but that I no longer believe you, has shaken me.” Public health messaging is predicated on trust, which overcomes the enormous complexity of the scientific literature, creating an opportunity to communicate initiatives effectively. Still, violation of this trust renders the communication unreliable. When trust is shattered, messaging is no longer clear and straightforward, and instead results in the audience trying to reverse-engineer the statement based on their view of the speaker’s intent. Simply put, noble lies can rob confidence from the public, leading to confusion, a loss of credibility, conspiracy theories, and obfuscated policy.
Noble lies are a trap. We cannot predict the public’s behavior, and loss of trust is devastating. The general population is far too skeptical to blindly follow the advice of experts, and far too intelligent to be easily duped.
And they're not noble, when the lies are told to cover up your own role in funding and starting the pandemic, or to funnel government funds to your industry friends.
Every decision has a risk. The crux of the problem, from a libertarian perspective, is letting someone else take the authority for making the decision for you, while leaving you with he accountability for the decision.
Mandatory Vaccination is the the same as Jim Crow: It didn’t matter what you wanted, the .gov enforced an othering with jail and loss of livelihood.
Siience can’t ‘prove’ anything. It can disprove, and give support. Over time, with enough support without counter example, we can proceed as if it true.
That is one of the problems with reason’s ‘It’s fine. We’re fine. Everything’s fine’ towards tech manipulation of info in social networking, advertising and content promotion.
Mandatory Vaccination is the the same as Jim Crow: It didn’t matter what you wanted, the .gov enforced an othering with jail and loss of livelihood.
The validity of mandating COVID vaccines, specifically, can be debated with sincerity. The wisdom of mandating vaccines, generally, can also be debated with sincerity. But calling vaccine mandates "the same as Jim Crow" is seriously fucked up. How many people only started complaining about vaccines when it became a right wing identity marker to doubt everything COVID? Did those same people complain prior to 2020 about vaccines required for traveling overseas, enrolling children in schools, or for military service members that have existed for decades?
The fact is that public health could handle it if a few percent of the population refuses all vaccines for religious reasons in addition to the few that can't be vaccinated due to their medical history. Populations with very high overall rates of vaccination can remain well protected from diseases like measles and polio under those conditions. But those conditions can be fragile if the rates of vaccination drop.
So, instead of freezing out black people from the wealth and culture and legal protections of the white majority, for no better reason than the color of their skin, you are seeing some attempts here and there to impose consequences upon people that refuse to participate in a group effort to protect the whole. Is that justified or does it violate fundamental individual rights? Is it actually likely to be effective on top of that? Those are important questions. But Jim Crow? Please think before jumping to ridiculous hyperbole.
BTW, this slimy piece of lefty shit is down with murder of the un-armed as a preventative for, well, just about anything!
"JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”"
Pathetic, no?
I wonder if you’ve ever watched the video. The pathetic thing was that several people, including Babbitt were there trying to break in. You can hear one of them shouting to officers on their side of the doorway about how many people were behind them trying to get in and that they didn’t want to hurt those officers. Then they starting telling people behind them to “make a path” for those few officers to get out of the way, which they did. Then someone with a flag starts using the pole to start bashing the windows. (Probably again, as the windows were already cracked.) One person starts shouting about the officer on the other side having his gun out, but apparently others didn’t hear this, didn’t think he’d shoot, or didn’t care. That officer with the gun looks to have been by himself near the door, with perhaps 3-4 others further down the hall hovering near other doorways. There was a makeshift barricade of chairs and other furniture on his side. Ashlee Babbitt wasn’t on camera when the shot was fired, but from the angle that the officer had with his weapon when he fired, she was likely going through a broken door over the barricade.
So that is what you have. A crowd of people telling officers that they didn’t want to hurt them, so they should just get out of the way and let them bash their way through a door to the Speaker’s lobby (which leads to the House floor – there may still have been congressmen and staff in there at the time).
I still don’t know what Sevo thinks officers should have done differently. Let all those people through? They clearly didn’t have the numbers or riot equipment to wrestle with them in an attempt to detain them with less force.
My suggestion to Sevo then is this. If he is behind the door to his home when a crowd of people is banging on it with clear intention to bash it down to get in, he should just let them go by into the rest of his house with his family. After all, shooting the first person to come through the door would clearly be murder, according to him.
[Edit: I'm going to save this so that I can post it every time Sevo copies this thing he posts every time he sees me post about anything at all. That way, we can both have our stock answers to each other that have nothing to do with the content of the article we are commenting on.]
At this point, we are just disagreeing on whether what .gov did was bad or really bad. The saving grace, at this time, is certainly Covid hasn't been generations. But to think it didn't upend generational progress for many families (loss of jobs and education) on flawed interpretations or just bad data, with some bias and hysteria as a leavener might be naive.
Vaccine, mask mandates were politicized with the result the Covid death toll of Republicans, who refused to comply, rose far greater than for Democrats, who did. https://politicsofthelastage.blogspot.com/2022/12/update-on-covid19-mask-and-vaccine.html
You're deeply mistaken:
https://www.outkick.com/new-study-confirms-vaccine-mandates-were-completely-ineffective-against-covid/
What is he mistaken about?
The article you linked does not point to the study itself. Instead, it points to a FoxNews article about the study. (That FoxNews article also does not link directly to the study either. You can find the Mercatus Center's article on this working paper here, which also links to the paper itself.) Near the end of the FoxNews article:
In contrast, the working paper noted that other studies have shown that country-wide and province-wide mandates in Europe and Canada were effective in terms of resulting in more people getting a first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine. The authors also pointed out that by the time the studied cities implemented their mandates, a significant percentage of their populations had already been vaccinated.
So, what does the study you linked actually show? That a city imposing a vaccine mandate is not likely to be effective. Most importantly, what the mandate is not effective at doing, when implemented at only a municipal level, is in encouraging people to get vaccinated when they otherwise wouldn't.
If a vaccine mandate doesn't affect how many people actually get vaccinated, then you certainly don't expect it to have any effect on the number of infections or death.
What Ronsch's link shows, though, is that there is a strong correlation with the number of Trump voters in a county and the rate of COVID deaths. That is not proof of causation, but it certainly suggests that resistance to getting vaccinated, wearing masks when indoors in public places, social distancing in general, and/or other mitigation efforts could have had a strong impact on outcomes.
It should also be noted that places with higher percentages of Democratic Party voters are urban areas with high population densities and greater travel. That is, places you'd expect to have higher rates of transmission of an infectious disease.
Too many in “the Party of Science” misunderstand what science actually is, and how scientific progress is achieved.
Science is not a religion, with high priests and experts handing down official positions which can’t be questioned. Science depends on the honest and impartial review of all data, and an openness to new theories and new explanations.
Science is not a democracy, where questions of theory are settled by a majority (or even super-majority) vote of the expert practitioners. Established theories, even “consensus theories” can be overturned by new evidence. As Albert Einstein said when asked how he could still support his Theory of Relativity when 100 German scientists had written a book explaining why he was wrong — “If they could prove I was wrong, they would only need one German scientist.”
Light was once thought to move through an “ether” in space. Evolution was originally thought to be the result of gradual changes over time, rather than occurring in bursts (punctuated equilibrium) when environmental conditions change. The universe was once thought to have existed unchanged for all time (rather than having a definite origin date and to be expanding).
Questions of climate science and pandemic origins and the like ought to be equally open to questioning and an impartial review of the facts, not squelching debate when it is inconvenient.
As much as I hate to be pedantic, the luminiferous aether is quite real. Spacetime itself is a thing. It can be bent. It can be broken. It interacts with the objects within it. Spacetime is definitely a something and not just a coordinate plane. It's the aether in all but name.
From what I can tell, the problem with aether theories is that they describe it as something that creates a fixed, preferred frame of reference where the aether is motionless. The Lorentz transformations tried to explain the inability to detect motion relative to the aether (such as the Michelson-Morley experiment), but it basically became unnecessary to have a physical substance for light to travel through once general relativity was developed. Spacetime could be thought of as a "new aether" in some respects, but it isn't a substance nor does it have its own state of motion.
A theory of everything that reconciles quantum mechanics and general relativity might have something else that could be analogous to the aether, but I wouldn't think it productive to try and force that analogy. Better to just accept modern theories that work for what they say rather than try and make them line up with something older that didn't work.
As Albert Einstein said when asked how he could still support his Theory of Relativity when 100 German scientists had written a book explaining why he was wrong — “If they could prove I was wrong, they would only need one German scientist.”
Another Einstein quote with a similar message is "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong."
But both of these are not saying what you want them to say. You need to think beyond the simple words Einstein chose.
How does one "prove" something in science?
Science is largely inductive. Meaning that you don't start with premises (or axioms or postulates, if you prefer those terms) and reason deductively to a conclusion that must be true if the premises are true. Rather, evidence, analysis, and reasoning build in favor of a proposition. As more such evidence accumulates without there being evidence against the proposition, a scientist can become more and more confident in that proposition being correct. Eventually, they will provisionally accept it as correct and focus instead of working out further details and consequences of that proposition and how it relates to other propositions with strong evidence in their favor. That is how successful theories are built. They just keep working and successfully predict the outcomes of experiments. If evidence comes in that doesn't match the predictions, scientists will become excited to dig into it and see what is happening, hoping that they will learn something new.
Sometimes, the theory can accommodate the new information with some modifications, but every scientist knows that to really break through and achieve something remarkable and memorable is to find something that can't be integrated into existing theory and thus requires whole new paradigms.
The "single experiment" by "one German scientist" that could prove Einstein wrong was never going to be just one person making a claim based on one experiment and then, boom, Einstein is wrong. It could start with one person and one experiment, but it would then take many other scientists and many more experiments confirming that first result to prove Einstein wrong. That is because every claim in science needs to be verified, even ones that claim that some other claim is wrong. The burden of proof applies to every claim of science equally.
If we're going to disentangle and separate politics/government and science, how about enhancing the separation of church and state as well? Everybody here loathes the very idea of the establishment of shari'a law as the law of the land, yes? Well, there are tens of millions of people who feel the same way about the establishment of christian nationalism as the law of the land. Surely, the vast majority of people who don't live in Utah (probably some who do live there too) can possibly want to live in a theocracy, in which nonbelievers would be treated as second or third class citizens.
You’re an idiot. Go get another booster.
Oh... So it's the Christians who are preaching climate religion while monopolizing the peoples energy and transportation, preaching ?equality?-freebees for robbers, censoring free-speech, mandating commie-indoctrination for kids, and playing racist and sexist mob privilege games?????? All in the name of building a [Na]tional (fed) So[zi]alist Nation and proudly pitching the ideology as goodness so great it requires gov-guns do absolutely everything towards its end-goal.
Now lets see what/how-many specific examples you can give concerning 'christian' oppression.
You are talking about "preaching climate religion" as if having a religious belief in something is a bad thing. For scientific ideas or hypotheses, it is. That is because it is the opposite of how science is supposed to work. It is against the scientific method to simply make a claim as a matter of dogma or to appeal to authority figures or authoritative texts as being unquestionable.
But it is exactly how religion is supposed to work to do those things. Dogma, faith, and unquestioned authorities are built into what makes a set of beliefs religious. When people make claims about gay people violating God's laws, thus they should not be given equal rights to heterosexuals, they are behaving the way their religion tells them that they are supposed to behave. When they make claims that abortion of an embryo or fetus is murder, that is not a testable scientific claim or a legal claim, but a religious one. When they then want to ban abortion for all women, whether they follow their religion or not, they are doing what they think that their religion commands them to do: make everyone follow their religious law. When public school leaders use their taxpayer-funded positions to send kids to a religious service after the permission slips sent to parents said it was a college and career day, they apparently are doing what their religion tells them to do in order to spread The Word.
If people misuse science in a way that resembles religion, they are doing science wrong and should absolutely be criticized for it. For good or bad, though, the government does not violate the Constitution to misuse science as justification for laws that restrict people's freedoms, if the laws are otherwise within government's enumerated powers. When people use their religion as the sole justification to restrict people's freedoms, on the other hand, they most certainly are violating the Constitution, even if the laws would otherwise be constitutional.
There is no inherent ‘right’ to get a government status symbol (i.e. ‘marriage’) and being gay isn’t a crime so the only ONE example you have is abortion and a very sparse example in one Louisiana school (i.e. Commie-Education) which the right is trying to eliminate.
That’s pretty pathetic for ….
“establishment of christian nationalism as the law of the land”
I did appreciate the explanation though.
Needless to say; Republican voter majority supported RvW.
There is no inherent ‘right’ to get a government status symbol (i.e. ‘marriage’)…,
True, but the government can’t provide it for some and then deny it to some other people arbitrarily because they fall into a disfavored group. (Equal Protection)
and being gay isn’t a crime…
As of 2003, no state can make it a crime, sure. One of the three justices that dissented in that case is still on the Court and he has at least one fellow traveler that would no doubt love to reverse that precedent. And it wasn’t literally a crime to “be” gay, only to engage in sex acts that gay men were known to perform (though hardly only gay men) and the landmark case was, naturally, regarding two gay men. (Connecticut denied drivers licenses to admitted homosexuals as late as 1970, but that was not a criminal offense.)
But we are seeing a resurgence in people on the religious right equating homosexuality with pedophilia and “grooming” children for sexual abuse. It isn’t just the transgender issue bringing this out from the Bible-thumpers. Which, naturally, is leading many activists on that end of the political spectrum to insist that public institutions scrub all references to anything LGBTQ+ as part of their war on woke. How’s that for the establishment of Christian nationalism as the law of the land? (I also left out mentions of people that want to put up signs in schools that say, “In God We Trust”, the constant controversies over the Ten Commandments, giant crosses on public land, exceptions to laws everyone else has to follow that seem to end up applying entirely to Christians that don't like how the U.S. is becoming more tolerant and inclusive, and so on.)
Catastrophic Crash at line " function('guns') { make science. } "
'guns' (gov-guns) don't make sh*t but instead their only asset to humanity is to ensure every Individual Liberty and Justice.
Trying to use an obviously UN-useful tool where it doesn't belong always brings about unintended consequences. It's like trying to build a house with a wrecking ball.
i don't trust the experts who tell me that a man can become a woman, that a man can get pregnant and that the mrna drugs will stop the spread. these experts have completely discredited themselves. they are a disgrace.
By the time I scrolled to the end in order to comment, I forgot what I was going to say. Reason, we've been asking for a better commenting system for years.
Agree there! How about just email notes for comments?
And why not a simple bot that deletes and blocks anyone who submits "I'm making" or "earns $xxx/hr" or 100 other simple nonsense submissions.
Science (n) - "scientia" (Latin) knowledge. Observation, identification, theoretical explanation, supportable by independent experiment.
[corrupted vernacular] - Belief by the weak-minded that ideas funded by government and supported by media are above question or understanding.