The Good Samaritans Who Saved Syrian Refugees
When government relief efforts fail, individuals step up.

All Else Failed: The Unlikely Volunteers at the Heart of the Migrant Aid Crisis, by Dana Sachs, Bellevue Literary Press, 304 pages, $19.99
There is a story about crisis relief that a lot of people believe instinctively, one that's built into our institutions: Governments and major international organizations, armed with resources and authority, are best equipped to quickly help people harmed by war, hunger, and violence.
Dana Sachs offers a different narrative in All Else Failed: The Unlikely Volunteers at the Heart of the Migrant Aid Crisis. A million migrants crossed the Mediterranean Sea to reach Europe in the year 2015 alone. As the refugees reached shore in Greece, "traditional relief networks proved themselves incapable of delivering a productive response," she writes. Major humanitarian groups such as the International Rescue Committee and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) "offered only limited support on the ground." The European Union shelled out "millions of euros in aid but failed to disburse the funds effectively."
Meanwhile, "thousands of individuals—Greek villagers, Swedish college students, Irish retirees, Italian lifeguards, and, eventually, refugees themselves—stepped forward to fill the gaps." It was "individual Good Samaritans" who "averted disaster," Sachs shows.
Her book stops short of explicitly saying governments and large organizations are not the most effective relief providers. The subtext is that the volunteer response was better because it had to be, not because it actually would have been preferable to a competent effort led by governments and major charities. But with its relentless focus on the ways individuals were best able to help each other through the crisis, All Else Failed offers clear evidence that motivated volunteers were ready, willing, and better suited to take the lead.
"Every individual has some advantage over all others because he possesses unique information of which beneficial use might be made, but of which use can be made only if the decisions depending on it are left to him or are made with his active cooperation," F.A. Hayek wrote in his 1945 essay "The Use of Knowledge in Society." A centrally planned economy, he showed, could never be as efficient as a system in which individuals are free to make decisions using the knowledge they personally hold.
The same was true of the grassroots relief network that emerged in Greece. Volunteers like Jenni James were effective at addressing migrants' needs simply because they could see what those needs were. James launched an aid team called Get Shit Done, whose chutzpah and makeshift methods led to big improvements in migrant camps. At one, the team built a metal-frame community center; at another, it cobbled together a women's prayer space. When volunteers saw kids with sores, they started mosquito-proofing the facilities.
This agile approach was at odds with the way large nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) operated. During one meeting, grassroots volunteers and NGO representatives were discussing poor shower access in government-run camps. Tracey Myers, who worked with James, "replied that her team had already begun working on hygiene and water issues. 'We can solve this problem today,' she said." An NGO professional chided: "You're volunteers….You can't fix this problem and it's not sustainable."
One reason the volunteers had such useful local knowledge is because so many of them were displaced people themselves. To her credit, Sachs recognizes and highlights this. Well-intentioned media coverage often ignores refugees' autonomy, describing migrants as a people to whom things merely happen. Sachs emphasizes the ways that refugees give back to their new communities and how they help one another. Her account never treats them merely as people to be saved or a burden on the public fisc.
Ibrahim Khoury had worked as a humanitarian professional in his native Syria before arriving as a refugee in Greece. He quickly offered to be a translator for new arrivals. Later, he launched an aid project using Facebook and Western Union, collecting and distributing 60,000 euros in a two-month span. He taught himself Excel and accounting. He researched which rat poison was safe to use around children so volunteers could rid local camps of the pests. In a government-established camp where refugees slept on the open (and often muddy) ground, it was Khoury who gathered funds for a wooden floor. (On a less inspiring note, the book's epilogue notes that he was later accused of rape. Greece's highest criminal court later cleared him of all charges.)
Refugees also participated in the mutual aid networks that arose during the country's economic crisis. Greek anarchists repurposed abandoned buildings as homes and community centers. Though the practice was illegal, the authorities essentially looked the other way when migrants moved in. Official camps could house just 33,000 of the 46,000 asylum seekers on the mainland. The squats meant more space for the rest.
The incentive structure and mechanisms for survival were drastically different in the anarchist projects than in the government-run camps. In the latter, Sachs writes, "residents were mostly passive recipients of aid." The squats, by contrast, "would succeed or fail based on the active engagement of those who lived inside." An intake questionnaire asked would-be residents about their professions, hoping to add an electrician or a plumber to a squat's ranks.
Rima Halabi, a Syrian mother of six, left the violent and squalid conditions of a government-run camp and eventually settled in a squat in Athens. She offered her cooking skills, preparing meals each day for the community's 400 residents using ingredients supplied by solidarity activists and generous locals.
The squats were hardly mini utopias. The one where Halabi lived grew increasingly violent, especially for women, and Halabi and her children eventually left. But even that one, Sachs argues, was "a rich and vibrant community." And cooking for others gave Halabi a share of her agency back.
Toward the end of the book, Sachs recalls a conversation with Khoury. She had been turning over a question in her head: "By rushing forward to fill gaps in aid, I wondered, was the grassroots movement inadvertently letting larger actors off the hook and helping perpetuate a failing system?"
Khoury rejected the premise out of hand: "If someone is in need, you can't say, 'Oh, it's not my responsibility.'" If an old woman fell down in the street, "we wouldn't say, 'Oh, someone from the government have to take this responsibility and help her.'"
Years after the events of All Else Failed, volunteers are still stepping up to fill holes the government has neglected, created, or made worse. During the COVID-19 pandemic, it was volunteers who bolted hand sanitizer dispensers to trees in refugee camps. Why, Sachs asks, is this still the case? "Because the international community has failed to provide a comprehensive response to human displacement."
Unfortunately, she does not dwell for too long on who might offer a better path forward. "In the minds of…UNHCR professionals, the rise of volunteerism indicated failure, not success," she writes. They were not particularly "interested in how the small-scale grassroots movement presented new, flexible models for aid." One volunteer said she hadn't really seen any NGOs reflecting on what needed to change. Instead, they were "defensive."
There will be humanitarian crises to come, making it all the more important to lay blame and praise at the appropriate feet. Sachs writes moving passages about the boundlessness of human generosity, and she constantly highlights how volunteers with local knowledge kept the humanitarian aid machine moving in Greece. Her account suggests a clear conclusion: that the volunteer effort was better, not out of necessity, but because it is better suited for the task. But she never quite says that aloud.
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During the COVID-19 pandemic, it was volunteers who bolted hand sanitizer dispensers to trees in refugee camps.
There is a lot to unpack there.
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It is the sanitized version of the story.
Fiona should wash her hands of the whole thing.
She should dispense it.
She offered her cooking skills, preparing meals each day for the community's 400 residents
Food trucks!!!!
The squats were hardly mini utopias. The one where Halabi lived grew increasingly violent, especially for women,
I am sure this is due to the white supremacy and patriarchy of her new home and not from the cultural enrichment her felllow immigrants are bringing with them.
https://twitter.com/lporiginalg/status/1725892169720868942?t=uHsd06WWRgoHcz2rdjUNkQ&s=19
How it started......how it's going
[Links]
Why is this the only parable atheists know? And why is it used as justification for ignoring laws? The Samaritan didn’t require his fellow citizens to pay for those he helped, he did it himself.
Refugee camps are not paid for only by individuals but by the state. At great cost.
Just like sponsors in the US are never liable for the costs they agree to as sponsors.
And why is it used as justification for ignoring laws?
Wait, you really want to know why the Bible is used as a justification for ignoring laws? Why don't you ask your fellow Republicans that question.
He actually explained the difference in the parable of the good samaritan and the bullshit here.
Try reading.
The Bible does not exhort you to "Force others to fulfill your moral beliefs".
Different issue. Jesse wanted to know why the Bible is used as a justification for ignoring laws. He, and you, should ask your fellow Team Red pals that question.
Jesse asked why a misinterpreted version of that parable is used as a justification for ignoring laws. Different issue than what you are trying to push indeed.
Athiests like jeff will never understand religious parables. Charity is always done by individuals. Charity mandated by a state is not charity, it is welfare. It is forcing others to do instead of voluntary.
Jeff will also continue to deny the people he hates, conservatives and theists, donate both more tim and money than his team of forced servitude to obtain the lefts dream.
Jesus did not want a state forcing people to be good. Jeff will never understand that. I doubt he has ever donated time or money.
Jeff will also continue to deny the people he hates, conservatives and theists, donate both more tim and money
You know, if you truly want me to believe that conservatives are more generous and compassionate towards the poor, then maybe the conservatives around here should start acting like it.
Whenever an issue of welfare, or migrants, or desperate people living in desperate situations, comes up, the general attitude around here is that they are moochers, layabouts, people who have made poor moral choices, people from shithole countries who just need to go back and fix what’s wrong. When was the last time anyone from your team around here has expressed any sort of empathy for the plight of impoverished people?
When the right-wingers around here act like complete assholes towards the less fortunate, it’s difficult for me to believe that conservatives really are generous and kind towards the less fortunate, and not like how they behave here, which is judgmental and dismissive.
That's called tough love.
People must live with the consequences of their poor decisions. They won't learn or improve otherwise.
And it's very obvious that this never occurred to you with your parents.
Freedom includes the freedom to fail. Not all outcomes are equal. This is why Jeff isn’t libertarian. He wants failure to be protected by government with any means necessary. Often at far greater costs than just a liveable resource.
A libertarian would support self funded charity to help those they wish to help. No force required. The biggest charities on the planet are religious. They do just that with food banks, rent assistance, etc.
But the problem of Jeff’s dependence of state to overcome failure is it can be exploited by the lazy as well. It is a double hit to those who have their own work taken from them to support others involuntarily.
A libertarian would support self funded charity to help those they wish to help.
This is what I support. I am pointing out that you won't get all of those generous people voluntarily choosing to fund charities if they aren't coming from a place of generosity and compassion towards the less fortunate.
Show me where in these discussions, your fellow tribalists treated poor people with anything other than contempt. How do you expect contemptuous people to donate enough money to charity to help poor people enough to actually make a difference with the real social problems that exist?
Also it looks like Jesse is back to ignoring me as he is refusing to respond directly to my comments. He just wants to grandstand and slander, not to actually discuss anything.
I see.
So in your version of Libertopia, if a person makes a poor decision, and as a result of that poor decision, winds up homeless, would you donate to a charity that would help this poor person? If so, under what conditions? Or, would you say "the homeless is his/her own fault, charity would just bail that person out, better to starve on the street"?
I would only donate to places where I can see the immediate results of that giving. That limits it to practical driving distance. But I wouldn't donate to secular charities anyway, so it becomes more selective.
Well, that didn't really answer the question.
Would you donate to a charity under the conditions that I specified? Assume it is a religious charity within driving distance, if you wish.
Maybe. If the decision includes deliberate choices to reject responsibility for self care and support and declares their goal to leech off the rest of us, then they can starve.
That was an answer, it's called verification.
How else am I supposed to judge if people who have made poor decisions are changing their behavior if I never see them?
"Whenever an issue of welfare, or migrants, or desperate people living in desperate situations, comes up, the general attitude around here is that they are moochers, layabouts, people who have made poor moral choices, people from shithole countries who just need to go back and fix what’s wrong."
Have you paid any attention to the news? And the hordes of illegal aliens being supported by US taxpayers? It's not sustainable. Taxpayers and illegals have simply become the chumps used by "strategists" in both political parties.
And by the way. I agree that genuine charity is done by individuals. Forced 'charity' is not charity. Welfare as a government redistribution program is not genuine charity. I completely agree with that.
I also believe that genuine charity has to come from an individual's sense of generosity and compassion. Which I see as very lacking around here among the Team Red tribalists.
If *you* envision a society in which social problems are met by individuals choosing to be charitable, instead of by large government welfare programs, then *you* have to create a climate within your own tribe that doesn't treat poor people like scum, that fosters a spirit of generosity and compassion. But I just don't see that. Not around here anyway.
So what is the alternative? You want no government welfare, but also a society full of people who treat the poor like dirt? How exactly is that supposed to work?
How do you see genuine charity lacking by people that you have assigned to a tribe that they may or not be in but you have put them there anyway? You have evidence of the actual charity they conduct?
What? Your request is incoherent.
Jeff has made this argument in the past. Not sure if I bookmarked it.
His argument is the state gas to force charity as individuals don't provide enough charity according to his demands. He believes choice only exists when people make the correct choice. He has literally argued people can have freedoms once they meet his condition for being free. It is evil.
His argument is the state gas to force charity as individuals don’t provide enough charity according to his demands.
LOL you couldn't represent my argument fairly if you had a gun to your head. Your entire schtick is to invent strawman arguments of others and to argue against those instead.
That is not what I argued. My argument is that even if we were to adopt some vision of Libertopia where the welfare state withered away, the social problems that the welfare state was intended to solve won't go away with it. So the solution is for private individuals to donate to private charity in sufficient quantities to address the social problems that exist. And if that doesn't happen, then guess what will inevitably happen instead - the welfare state will come roaring back, as people vote to redistribute wealth in order to address the suffering of the less fortunate.
My argument ultimately is that a Libertopian vision of no welfare state, if it is to exist in any practical form, must coexist with an individual ethos of charity and compassion towards the less fortunate. A situation in which there is no welfare, and a society full of misanthropic assholes, is unstable.
Jesse does not want to listen to these types of arguments because he cannot think critically beyond the sound bites offered to him by his right-wing bubble.
I asked you to defend your thesis in that post and what evidence you had for it.
Which one? That the right-leaning commenters around here routinely treat welfare recipients as moochers and worthless layabouts? I think that is self-evident.
I also believe that genuine charity has to come from an individual’s sense of generosity and compassion. Which I see as very lacking around here among the Team Red tribalists.
Your claim that charity by people here you assign to Team Red you see as very lacking.
Given that this is you, let’s take this in small steps.
Who are the Team Red members here?
Gee what a surprise, you reinterpret my comment in a negative light.
Your claim that charity by people here you assign to Team Red you see as very lacking.
No - my claim is that the sense of generosity and compassion is very lacking. And this is evident if you read the comments on any of the articles having to do with welfare or immigration.
Who are the Team Red members here?
I treat "Team Red" as a shorthand notation for people who are right-leaning. They tend to come out in support of conservative ideas and conservative policies. They may not support 100% of them but there is a very large overlap.
Jesse loves to quote that conservatives donate more to charity. Well, based on the attitudes that I see from the right-leaning people here, I don't see that spirit of generosity that would be necessary for charitable giving.
You fucked this up too, not surprisingly.
Who are the Team Red members here? User names. Not some vague description.
He can't even define right wing.
Coming from the guy posting dark Brandon praises. Lol.
Who are the Team Red members here? User names. Not some vague description.
Oh, Jesse definitely fits that description.
I don't have an exhaustive list.
My comment is more about the general tone of the comments here, not specific accusations against specific people.
You believe Jesse is very lacking regarding charity?
I believe he is lacking in a "sense of generosity and compassion" towards the less fortunate.
Tell me you have never actually spoken to a Christian without telling me you've never actually spoken to a Christian.
What? I've spoken to plenty of Christians. What are you talking about?
Your comment clearly shows you're lying.
“….then *you* have to….”
Lol. There goes that radical individualist again!
Jesse asked why a misinterpreted version of that parable is used as a justification for ignoring laws.
No, he asked why the parable is used as a justification for ignoring laws.
And if you want to know why that parable, or anything in the Bible, is used as a justification for ignoring laws, then you should ask your fellow Team Red tribalists.
In the context of it being misrepresented.
Why is this the only parable atheists know? And why is it used as justification for ignoring laws?
Those are his exact words.
Jesse, do you believe that atheists properly represent the parable of the Good Samaritan or do they misrepresent it?
I am using his exact words. You are trying to white-knight for him.
No. Oddly enough Jesus also warned of those who would utilize scripture for their own ends.
I’m not Christian, I’m agnostic. But I’ve read the Bible and the study around it. Jesus spoke in parables so those who sought out his beliefs could do so on their own accord. He did not utilize mandates but teaching. He also discussed an individuals work ethic as being of God. Most atheists pretend he wanted a global state and collectivism, but he did not. He valued voluntary actions, not state, and voluntary charity. The parable of the good Samaritan is of the latter. It requires choice, not offloading choice to government and forcing others to support that choice.
Jeff is the type of person who supports force. And he will utilize any means to do so including corrupting another’s argument, twisting it, and telling those that believe what they should do. Instead of self interpretation the atheist scripture bearer acts as a priest instead, despite not believing. It is a tool to garner power, not a belief to hold closely.
I will say this is true of the usurpation of all religions by atheists and religions. I’ve seen it done with Judaism and Buddhism as well.
I should add that this is also why I have a problem with most religious institutions that preach instead of discuss, such as the catholic church. The first 4 books are very clear on coming to God as an individual. Not coming to him through the voice of another. Yet the church after the Romans adopted it and set the books integrated the church into the state leading to many of the issues the current church has with their leadership structure and preaching.
Martin Luther and Calvin, along with many protestants, fermented a more individual view of scripture that I believe is more in line with the original teachings.
Jeff, I asked Jesse to spell it out for you because you are too numb to comprehend his entire post and instead needed the coloring book version. Voila! You are welcome.
It was clear to me; I wanted to avoid a wall of pontificating garbage from you.
Thats why I often just ignore jeff. He is a sea lion. He can’t argue from a foundation of logic. Always having to create a coloring book for him. Just tiring and tedious. And when someone does create a coloring book, he points yo a different coloring book generally unrelated to deny the coloring book made for him.
I thought I was very clear about choice being the primary discussion point in my prior posts. Athiests and collectivist hate choice though.
Wait wait Jesse, just the other day you said it was a lie that you put me on ignore. Now you say you "often just ignore me".
He can’t argue from a foundation of logic.
lol this is rich coming from you. You cannot think critically beyond the talking points that have been spoon-fed to you by your right-wing bubble.
It is the same with any argument with you. When sarcasmic or I try to discuss immigration with you, you just point to some article supporting your position and claim that that's the end of the argument, as if that's an I WIN button. You can't think beyond the article that you post, you can't critically analyze arguments that might contradict the premises in that article.
You're a right-wing puppet who parrots the LATEST THING on the right side. Have you ever had to face real challenges to your beliefs?
It was clear to me; I wanted to avoid a wall of pontificating garbage from you.
It was "clear to you" only because you chose to re-interpret his words in a favorable light. Because he is on your team, he gets the benefit of a good-faith reinterpretation.
Let me spell out my argument to you in coloring book form.
Here are his exact words:
Why is this the only parable atheists know? And why is it used as justification for ignoring laws?
The bolded "this" refers to the parable. Not a "reinterpreted" parable. And the bolded "it" also refers to the parable. And then, the very next sentence is:
The Samaritan didn’t require his fellow citizens to pay for those he helped, he did it himself.
THIS is where Jesse discusses how, in his view, the parable has been "reinterpreted". Which is after the two sentences that I quoted.
So, taken literally, Jesse is asking why the parable - not the "reinterpreted" one, but the parable that Jesus delivered - is used as a justification for breaking laws.
"Oh, but it is not fair to take Jesse's words so literally like that."
Well boo hoo.
It was clear to me because it was clear. Your reading comprehension problems are not my problem, though I charitably asked Jesse to spell it out for someone that has challenges. Jesse charitably did so. You really could thank him for that.
Additional right-fighting pontifications by you won’t change that you got it wrong.
And this is your gaslighting. "My re-interpretation of Jesse's words were his words all along, and the reason why you didn't see them is because you have reading comprehension problems." No, I read it correctly, you white-knighted for your pal.
You got it wrong.
It was clear from the original post. Your complaints and gaslighting won’t change that. Jesse made it easier for you and you still haven’t got the plot.
Jesse wanted to know why the Bible is used as a justification for ignoring laws.
No, he asked why THIS PARABLE is used as justification for ignoring laws, but THIS PARABLE has nothing to do with ignoring laws.
THIS PARABLE also has nothing to do with charity by wealthy people towards poor people. The parable of the Good Samaritan is about a member of a despised minority helping someone who despises him.
The ignoring laws was in reference to illegal refugees. What Fiona is doing. Not what the parable states. Which is what my objection is.
Once again, Jeffy reveals his ignorance.
A daily occurrence.
Why is this the only parable atheists know?
Been through this before, they don’t know actually it. To them it’s a story of “Someone I don’t know doing something I approve of.”
It’s like the Berkeley Zoning Board member who referenced Rear Window in defense of her privacy against people living in high rises. They don’t know what they’re talking about, they’re just riffing of Alfred Hitchcock to generate an image of Jimmy Stewart looking down his camera lens at you because none of them are any brighter than to recognize the story and facts beyond the one-frame meme.
So, it's clear that many of you don't want "those people" to migrate to the West.
To stop them from migrating, you can either put up giant walls and build big boats to prevent them from reaching the country. Ultimately, that strategy is doomed to fail, as migrants will tend to find a way around whatever defenses are in place.
Or, you can enact policies that lead to better conditions in their home countries so that they no longer wish to migrate. Wouldn't that be a preferable option?
What might some of these policies be? How about free trade and the free movement of capital, so that companies are free to create opportunities abroad, so that the labor stays put. But this tends to be disfavored around here as well.
So, what is the plan here? Keep building bigger walls?
Or, you can enact policies that lead to better conditions in their home countries
Black and brown people can't manage thier own countires and need white westerners to do it for them?
Recall a time when Science! supported that broken narrative that people of color were incapable of governing themselves. In addition to that, western nations suffocating from trillions of dollars of debt should be getting their own houses in order before white knighting with borrowed money.
That was a when Science! set a goal of controlling the numbers of those incapable POCs, as a major progressive issue. Good times.
One political party in the US started a war where a central theme was them wanting to own certain PoCs.
Jeff would have been preaching support of civilizing the savages in South America during the Spanish conquests.
It's the white man's burden.
Oh fuck you. I am not talking about Western nations imposing policies onto developing countries against their will, and fuck you for deliberately choosing to interpret my comment in a bad-faith manner.
I am talking about Western nations choosing policies for THEMSELVES that can lead to better conditions in the home countries from which there is a lot of outbound migration. Such as, policies that enable free trade and free movement of capital.
That was clear from the context, but you are just stirring up shit.
...but you are just stirring up shit.
Jeffy, I sincerely hope you were looking in the mirror when you typed that. You stir up a lot of shit here, get pedantic about it, and then accuse others of doing exactly what you've been doing. Honestly, I've never seen someone use so many words to say so little.
Obama?
An Ultimate Warrior promo?
How dare you.
Run to the ring, shake the ropes, no sell, clotheslines, gorilla press, splash. Rinse repeat.
I am talking about Western nations choosing policies for THEMSELVES that can lead to better conditions in the home countries from which there is a lot of outbound migration. Such as, policies that enable free trade and free movement of capital.
The problems in the Middle East are not related to restrictions on "free trade and free movement of capital" by the West; those countries simply have nothing to trade other than oil and they have tons of capital.
The Middle East is a shithole because it's an oil-rich region populated by people with a totalitarian culture and religion; and while those people like the wealth and safety that the West provides, they hate Western culture.
That was clear from the context
I'm sorry, most people just can't fathom the depth of your ignorance.
How about free trade and the free movement of capital, so that companies are free to create opportunities abroad, so that the labor stays put.
The greatest counterpoint already exists on this. It's called China.
China doesn't promote free trade. One of their biggest imports is theft from others. The mob does not support free trade when they steal and resell at lower costs than the producers.
So what is your plan?
If you don't want them migrating here, how do you plan on stopping the migration?
See below: they come for the safe and nice environment and all the free services and social safety net we have created in the West; simply deny them access.
Walls, men with guns, and grit. Lots of grit.
As for foreign policy, just don't do business with those countries as long as their people are ineffective at changing their status.
Let's just be clear: "men with guns and grit" is a euphemism for shooting migrants at the border. How do you plan on generating popular support for this plan?
just don’t do business with those countries
So the government should forbid companies from doing business with those countries?
How do you plan on generating popular support for this plan?
The same way the military commanded support: people accepting that the enforcement of law carries the possibility of death.
You would only need to kill a few (or maybe even one) to send the message. People who are of average intelligence can read the room.
So the government should forbid companies from doing business with those countries?
They could. Alternatively, they could prevent businesses from converting their spoils there into US dollars here. The incentive to bring whatever monies they make would dry up extra quick, and businesses respond very well to incentives.
Your 'solutions' sound rather... authoritarian.
People who are of average intelligence can read the room.
What about the citizens who protest the killing of unarmed migrants?
Your ‘solutions’ sound rather… authoritarian.
Governments are chartered to specific people in specific places. There exists no obligation for any government to treat outsiders as equals to its citizenry (and indeed, this would break and void sovereignty).
What about the citizens who protest the killing of unarmed migrants?
Do they complain when their soldiers kill civilians in combat zones?
Perhaps there is a gray area between 'migrants are completely equal to citizens' and 'migrants are to be shot on sight at the border'. Ya think? Do you think there is room for compromise between these two positions?
Do they complain when their soldiers kill civilians in combat zones?
What combat zone? Is the US at war with Mexico?
So, it’s clear that many of you don’t want “those people” to migrate to the West.
Correct.
To stop them from migrating, you can either put up giant walls […] Or, you can enact policies that lead to better conditions in their home countries so that they no longer wish to migrate.
False dichotomy; there are plenty of other options.
Wouldn’t that be a preferable option?
The conditions in their home countries are not under control; they are the result of the self-destructive culture and social structure these people have, a culture and social structure they bring with them.
As for how to deal with them, that’s pretty simple. Make the West less attractive: provide no government services to them; impose serious criminal penalties on anybody who knowingly does business with them or helps them. When they have any contact with the police, deport them immediately. Without identification, driver’s licenses, schooling, housing, banking, Internet, transportation, medical care, education, etc. the West becomes very unattractive to illegal migrants.
As for how to deal with them, that’s pretty simple. Make the West less attractive: provide no government services to them; impose serious criminal penalties on anybody who knowingly does business with them or helps them. When they have any contact with the police, deport them immediately. Without identification, driver’s licenses, schooling, housing, banking, Internet, transportation, medical care, education, etc. the West becomes very unattractive to illegal migrants.
First, now hopefully everyone can see why I and others compare the War on Migration to the War on Drugs. The police-state measures that would be needed, by the advocates' own estimation, are analogous to those used by the War on Drugs. In particular:
impose serious criminal penalties on anybody who knowingly does business with them or helps them.
This represents a loss of liberty of citizens for choosing to associate with migrants. So all the bullshit surveillance tactics and liberty-destroying tactics that we see with the War on Drugs are in play here too.
Second,
When they have any contact with the police, deport them immediately.
this statement means that not only is it de facto 'open season' on the illegal migrants - they can't report any crimes committed against them to the police for fear of being deported (again, just like with the War on Drugs, and crimes committed against drug users) - but also it means a de facto "papieren, bitte" regime for the rest of us, especially for anyone who looks like they might be from south of the border.
Third,
Without identification, driver’s licenses, schooling, housing, banking, Internet, transportation, medical care, education, etc. the West becomes very unattractive to illegal migrants.
how exactly do you expect to obtain popular support for this? We all saw the freakout with Trump's "family separation" policy, which was not even 1/100th as severe as what is being proposed above. How do you create majority support for the idea that if an illegal immigrant is in need of serious medical care, the 'compassionate' thing to do is to deny that migrant care and to deport him/her instead?
This represents a loss of liberty of citizens for choosing to associate with migrants.
You can associate with migrants in their country; if you do so in this country, you are taking my private property to pay for your choice of association and that represents a loss of liberty for me.
but also it means a de facto “papieren, bitte” regime for the rest of us, especially for anyone who looks like they might be from south of the border.
Nothing changes for citizens. Citizens already have to provide identification in all the circumstances I listed.
how exactly do you expect to obtain popular support for this?
The majority of Americans favor immigration enforcement and a stop to mass migration.
You can associate with migrants in their country; if you do so in this country, you are taking my private property to pay for your choice of association and that represents a loss of liberty for me.
That is not true. If I choose to associate with a non-citizen migrant on public property, that association does not cost you any more liberty than if I choose to associate with a citizen. And if I choose to associate with a non-citizen migrant on MY private property, and you prevent me, then YOU are depriving me of my liberty.
Nothing changes for citizens. Citizens already have to provide identification in all the circumstances I listed.
Also not true. There is no general legal requirement for citizens to carry identification on their person. It would be a violation of the Fourth Amendment for that to be the case. There is only specific legal requirements for ID for specific situations, i.e., for driving a car or flying on an airplane. So if a citizen is in one of these situations where there is no requirement for him/her to carry identification, and he/she has an encounter with the police, and the police thinks that he/she is an illegal immigrant, then, according to you, the police should be able to immediately deport this person, even though this person is a citizen. And note that this contact with the police doesn't even have to be in connection with the commission of a crime, it can be entirely incidental.
So in effect, you would be creating a "papieren, bitte" regime, for everyone who didn't want to be "accidentally" deported.
The majority of Americans favor immigration enforcement and a stop to mass migration.
Do you think the majority of Americans would favor refusing emergency health care to an illegal immigrant?
That is not true. If I choose to associate with a non-citizen migrant on public property, that association does not cost you any more liberty than if I choose to associate with a citizen.
Every person you bring into the country requires government services and coverage and those cost money, about $25000/year. As far as I’m concerned, you’re welcome to bring in as many people as you like if you pay that much on their behalf (you effectively can already do that under current law). What you can’t do is bring in people you like and then expect others to pay for the government services/insurance they receive.
So if a citizen is in one of these situations where there is no requirement for him/her to carry identification, and he/she has an encounter with the police, and the police thinks that he/she is an illegal immigrant, then, according to you, the police should be able to immediately deport this person
No, I’m saying that in all those situations where police or businesses already check identification, they should pay attention to citizen status. Nothing at all changes as to when or how you carry or use identification. All that changes is that if businesses or government agencies know that you are not in the country legally, they are prohibited from doing business with you.
Do you think the majority of Americans would favor refusing emergency health care to an illegal immigrant?
Who is talking about refusing emergency health care to illegals? They should receive emergency care and be deported immediately when the emergency is over. The should also be financially charged for emergency care afterwards and any assets that they may have in the US or abroad that are under US control seized to pay for it.
Every person you bring into the country requires government services and coverage and those cost money, about $25000/year.
I am not talking about any government services that a migrant may consume. I am only referring to the simple act of association between a citizen and a migrant. If a migrant uses public property to walk up to my doorstep at my invitation, how does that cost you any more than what you are already paying for that public property? It doesn't.
All that changes is that if businesses or government agencies know that you are not in the country legally, they are prohibited from doing business with you.
Then this is an infringement on the liberty of those businesses that does not currently exist. Explain why businesses should have to put up with this infringement of their liberty, and further explain why this just won't encourage businesses and customers to just "not ask" for ID when conducting business.
Who is talking about refusing emergency health care to illegals?
YOU ARE. Remember this?
Without identification, driver’s licenses, schooling, housing, banking, Internet, transportation, medical care, education, etc. the West becomes very unattractive to illegal migrants.
They should receive emergency care and be deported immediately when the emergency is over.
So the net result is that if they are sick they won't go to the hospital, because if they do, they will be deported. So the effect is the same - they won't be getting emergency medical care.
If you want them to get the medical care that they need, then you have to promise to them that you won't use their illness as a weapon against them to deport them. That is why we have the system that we have now, where the 'illegals' get 'free health care' (not really, it's just emergency care) and it leaves you all fuming at the mouth at the outrage of it all, but what you fail to realize is that the alternative is that the 'illegals' wouldn't get any care at all.
So there is no realistic world in which the 'illegals' would go to the hospital when they are sick and then realize 'oh no, now I will be deported'. They just wouldn't go in the first place.
So you have to choose: either a health care system that is open to all, no questions asked, because the goal of the health care system is to heal the sick and not to enforce immigration law; or a health care system that is open only to citizens and the non-citizens are shut out entirely and are on their own.
I am only referring to the simple act of association between a citizen and a migrant. If a migrant uses public property to walk up to my doorstep at my invitation, how does that cost you any more than what you are already paying for that public property? It doesn’t.
Yes, it does. I'm not going to explain to you again how.
Then this is an infringement on the liberty of those businesses that does not currently exist. Explain why businesses should have to put up with this infringement of their liberty
Penalizing businesses for aiding and abetting people in the commission of crimes is not an infringement on their liberty; in fact, it is routinely done already.
So the net result is that if they are sick they won’t go to the hospital,
So, same as all known criminals. I don't see the problem.
or a health care system that is open only to citizens and the non-citizens are shut out entirely and are on their own.
The healthcare system is open to anybody legally in the country and able to pay. For emergency treatment, we don't verify legal presence not out of kindness, but to avoid harming people here legally.
Illegals should be arrested, receive any minimal treatment necessary for deportation, and be deported to their home countries.
"The conditions in their home countries are not under control; they are the result of the self-destructive culture and social structure these people have, a culture and social structure they bring with them."
But the progressive dilemma. They can't criticize these disfunctional cultures and they can't abide the shitty outcomes and simply must intervene. What's a delusional progressive to do?
"Or, you can enact policies that lead to better conditions in their home countries so that they no longer wish to migrate. Wouldn’t that be a preferable option?"
Tried that.
Iraq and Afghanistan.
That worked well, obviously.
It is not the US job to fix every country on Earth, nor to take in all of the world's poverty.
Or, you can enact policies that lead to better conditions in their home countries so that they no longer wish to migrate. Wouldn’t that be a preferable option?
What might some of these policies be? How about free trade and the free movement of capital, so that companies are free to create opportunities abroad, so that the labor stays put. But this tends to be disfavored around here as well.
This is a naivete so childlike, I’m not even sure how to respond. How is it my responsibility to improve the conditions in Eritrea so people from Eritrea don’t want to move here for the free healthcare? How is it my responsibility to make Venezuela not be socialist any more? How is it my responsibility to turn North Vietnam into a thriving capitalist democracy? How is it my responsibility to turn Iraq into a thriving, hip-swiveling market economy with a satellite dish so they can get My Two Dads beamed into every home? How is it my responsibility to enact regime change around the world to stop tin-pot, third world dictatorships into something that better fits my view of how their countries should be run?
You’re essentially blabbering neocon warmonger ideas, wrapped up in a cloak of Progressive Compassion.
Reason: Fix your blockquote code. Or fix your italics code. I don't really care which but for the fucking love of god, fix one or the other of them.
How is it my responsibility to improve the conditions in Eritrea so people from Eritrea don’t want to move here for the free healthcare?
Here is the cold, realist answer: Because if you don’t, they will make their problems, your problems.
Note: I am NOT suggesting “regime change”. So we both reject that idea.
I specifically suggested free trade and free movement of capital so that companies can more easily invest in foreign nations and therefore improve the conditions of those places via capitalism. But that idea seems to be on the outs now.
What is your alternative? Build bigger walls?
Here is the cold, realist answer: Because if you don’t, they will make their problems, your problems.
Eritrea is halfway around the world; we can easily keep them out.
What is your alternative? Build bigger walls?
Simply make it impossible for them to live in the US. We already live under a regime that makes it possible to do that to American citizens in the name of "fighting crime" and "collecting taxes". We might as well use it to rid ourselves of these criminals as well.
Here is the cold, realist answer: Because if you don’t, they will make their problems, your problems.
So old worlders bring their old world grudges with them?
I can think of no better argument for shutting off the spigot than that.
https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/1725879244952162614?t=Owm2_8dfRPZahPTTEFdwEg&s=19
Let me get this straight - “Decolonizing” the West by replacing White people with Third World immigrants is considered a good and necessary activity. Any opposition to this replacement is deemed “White supremacy” by Jewish groups. However, advocating for the same mass immigration for Israel, replacing the Jewish majority with Arabs and other Muslims, is considered advocating for genocide and must be censored.
https://twitter.com/Oilfield_Rando/status/1725885419789648036?t=kub_AHQIV7WVSnxVC4KQDQ&s=19
I’m so sorry this is happening to you @RachelFinston.
Send 100,000 more migrants. Turn the public libraries into latrines for them.
When I tell people their public librarians are hardcore communist activists and that the public libraries are communist beachheads in rural communities, they look at me like I just told them the moon is made out of cheese
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Why do we still have physical libraries with books at all?
To provide a location where men can dress up as women and coerce children to seat their bottoms on top of the men’s crotches while they read them a book. That’s why.
Also places for addicts to OD and pass out.
https://twitter.com/FistedFoucault/status/1725864505278697872?t=aDV0Bc0B84yB_Md-we3i3g&s=19
"Philosopher, activist, author" argues that people outside of the EU should be able to get EU citizenship even if never living in the EU itself.
Why not extend it to the entire globe?
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The EU is just a social construct.
https://twitter.com/PYeerk/status/1725587076010156482?t=6mEwcX3i3DSdv90Ar-XKXA&s=19
Laughing at perhaps the funniest image ever created
[Pic]
Really?
Beyond parody
Full range of replies to this one, we'll done.
https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1725560001492578638?t=InBjImhOuiGVX1Oa-hCZwg&s=19
Whatever their views on Gaza people need to understand that many in the Jewish community are frightened and feel attacked right now. They are hurting and hoping that as an act of solidarity many will attend the demonstration against antisemitism on the 26th.
https://twitter.com/TrevorSutcliffe/status/1725863056310460599?t=pVYYQ4zvl4ZKFrLSYsCYFA&s=19
What it looks like when you replace the words white/whites with the words Jewish/Jews in the tweets and headlines over the years from this guy who is now begging white Brits for "solidarity" with Jews.
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https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1725682846113677685?t=KOlsg2VL8U6aFA-tJCXFtQ&s=19
Oh look, Collusion.
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Reason apparently cheers the Islamic conquest of Europe. Apparently, Islam is the most libertarian religion there is! /sarc
Nothing says libertarian like the concept of total submission.
Do the 15 minute libertopia cities have mosques?
Wait. You will have a choice. Utter freedom as an individual.
Convert, pay a crippling tax, or die.
Entirely up to you. Choose.
The squats were hardly mini utopias. The one where Halabi lived grew increasingly violent, especially for women, and Halabi and her children eventually left. But even that one, Sachs argues, was “a rich and vibrant community.” And cooking for others gave Halabi a share of her agency back.
This is an interesting collection of words and syllables. A place which is increasingly violent for women (and presumably children) is described in the next breath as a “rich and vibrant community”, kind of like the way the media described CHAZ in Seattle.
Wow
https://twitter.com/MailOnline/status/1725676359244980618?t=by-CVztUNtk2lxq-2DVFiQ&s=19
Sexual assault center at Canadian university signs onto open letter that DENIES women were raped and sexually assaulted during Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel
[Link]
They were asking for it.
https://twitter.com/RadioGenoa/status/1725945439390773307?t=NT_Wn8vM_oTq270uxV-2RQ&s=19
In Warsaw Muslim immigrants want Islamic Jihad. Some tied Polish and Palestinian flags together. In Poland we would never have imagined this. We are amazed.
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Shorter Fiona: all these people should get US citizenship and free transportation to the bestest sanctuary neighborhood (that has plenty of mass transit to Koch plants).
Odd, I don't see the name Fiona Harrigan on that list.