Holding Protest Leaders Liable for Others' Violence Threatens First Amendment Rights
A lawsuit against a Black Lives Matter activist could have a chilling impact on constitutionally protected activity.

During a 2016 Black Lives Matter (BLM) protest in Baton Rouge, someone picked up a rock or a piece of concrete and hurled it at police, striking an officer in the head. Although the assailant was never identified, we know it was not BLM leader DeRay Mckesson, who nevertheless faces a lawsuit that blames him for creating the circumstances that led to the officer's injuries.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit allowed that lawsuit to proceed, rejecting Mckesson's claim that it was inconsistent with the First Amendment. Mckesson, represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, is now asking the U.S. Supreme Court to intervene, and he makes a compelling case that such litigation threatens the protest rights of Americans across the political spectrum.
The BLM demonstration was prompted by the July 2016 death of Alton Sterling, a 37-year-old black man who was shot six times during a struggle with two Baton Rouge police officers. Although federal and state investigations concluded that criminal charges against the officers were not warranted, a wrongful death lawsuit by Sterling's family led to a $4.5 million settlement in 2021.
The protest at the center of the civil case against Mckesson was staged outside the Baton Rouge Police Department four days after Sterling's death. The injured officer, identified as John Doe in his original complaint and as John Ford in an amended complaint filed last August, suffered jaw, head, and brain injuries.
Ford argues that Mckesson is responsible for those injuries because he negligently organized a protest that he should have known was apt to result in violence based on experience with prior BLM demonstrations. According to the complaint, Mckesson also showed negligence by staging the protest in the street outside police headquarters, attempting to block traffic on a nearby highway, and failing to stop protesters from looting a convenience store, where some of them grabbed water bottles they later threw at police.
In a decision last June, a divided 5th Circuit panel deemed Ford's allegations adequate to support a Louisiana tort claim and within the limits that the Supreme Court has imposed on protest leaders' civil liability. But according to dissenting Judge Don Willett, that ruling misconstrued the Court's 1982 decision in NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware Co., which said the First Amendment demands "precision of regulation" in addressing protests that combine constitutionally protected activity with threats or acts of violence.
The 1982 case involved a largely peaceful but sometimes violent boycott of white merchants in Claiborne County, Mississippi, that the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People launched in 1966. Unlike Mckesson, boycott organizer Charles Evers endorsed violence, saying, "If we catch any of you going in any of them racist stores, we're gonna break your damn neck."
Despite such rhetoric, the Supreme Court—which in 1969 had ruled that even advocacy of criminal behavior is constitutionally protected unless it is both "directed" at "producing imminent lawless action" and "likely" to do so—concluded that holding Evers civilly liable for protest-related violence would violate of the First Amendment. If that was true for Evers, Willett argued, it certainly should be true for Mckesson.
"Under Claiborne, Mckesson cannot be liable for violence unless he encouraged violence," Willett wrote. "It is not enough that he encouraged or committed unlawful-but-nonviolent actions that preceded violence."
Willett noted that Martin Luther King Jr.'s civil rights protests, including the 1965 Selma-to-Montgomery march, sometimes blocked traffic and sometimes were marred by violence. By the 5th Circuit's logic, he suggested, King could have been held liable for that violence, even though, like Mckesson, he did not "direct" it.
Willett warned that "the novel 'negligent protest' theory of liability" endorsed by his colleagues would have a chilling effect on constitutionally protected activities and "reduce First Amendment protections for protest leaders to a phantasm, almost incapable of real-world effect." The Supreme Court has a chance to prevent that outcome by hearing Mckesson's appeal.
© Copyright 2023 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
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I'mma just leave this here:
https://twitter.com/BLMChi/status/1711793142742073573/
Link doesn't work
Jeezum effin Crowe Sullum, you peice of shit, now apply this logic to Jan 6 and Trump.
The Meeting of the Right Rightist Minds will now come to Odor!
Years ago by now, Our Dear Leader announced to us, that He may commit murder in broad daylight, and we shall still support Him! So He Has Commanded, and So Must it be Done!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/24/donald-trump-says-he-could-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters
And now, oh ye Faithful of the Republican Church, It Has Become Known Unto us, that it is also in His Power and Privilege Ass Well, to murder the USA Constitution in broad daylight. Thus He Has Spoken, and Thus Must It Be Done! Thou shalt Render Unto Trump, and simply REND the USA Constitution, and wipe thine wise asses with it! Do NOT render unto some moldering old scrap of bathroom tissue! Lest we be called fools, or worse!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Proud Boys, STAND with TRUMP, and stand by! And if ye don’t agree 110%, then we don’t need you polluting our world, because all who disagree with us in ANY way are LEFTISTS!!!
There, I think that’s a wrap! I’ve covered it ALL! You can take the rest of the day off.
(You’re welcome!)
Apparently, in your view, the constitutional legal principles Sullum says should govern the case against a BLM protest organizer whose protest was marred by criminal acts should not apply to a protest on the right similarly marred? How?
There should be different standards for regular civilians (and prisons and fines) v/s political "leaders" and disqualification for office. Trump should be "punished" by being disqualified from running for office again... I am calling for NO other punishments of Trump, for this, beyond that! No double standards here... I am willing to be "punished" by being disqualified from running for office, if I run around shitting on the USA Constitution, and calling for others to "execute" General Milley, etc. Same standards for BLM protest leaders is OK by me also.
You can't be POTUS unless ye are native-born. This NOT the same as jailing all of the non-native-born! See the difference? Or are the non-native-born being "punished"?
Trump was Commander in Chief of the military at the time. Could He have commanded Captain Sir Dude Sir, Air Force Pilot, to go and bomb Nancy Pelosi’s house, under the rubric of “free speech”? Without being blamed or punished? … I have no giant “punishment boner”. Excluding Trump from EVER running for office again, would be good enough for me.
https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment14/annotation15.html#:~:text=This%20means%2C%20at%20least%20theoretically,Amendment%20has%20never%20been%20clear.
“This means, at least theoretically, that politicians who participate in or encourage a rebellion against the government can not only be removed from office but prevented from holding state and federal offices in the future. However, how disqualification works under the 14th Amendment has never been clear.”
Well then, let’s clarify and enforce it! Else democracy dies!
With great power, comes great responsibility. Trump can no longer be trusted… He is a demonstrated enemy of democracy!
“Trump was Commander in Chief of the military at the time. Could He have commanded Captain Sir Dude Sir, Air Force Pilot, to go and bomb Nancy Pelosi’s house, under the rubric of “free speech”? Without being blamed or punished?”
There is the whole problem of whether a president can face criminal charges while serving without being impeached and removed from office first. However, ordering an military air strike on an American soil against an American citizen is obviously an illegal order on its face. It certainly is not covered under free speech, just as government officials jawboning social media platforms into censoring dissident content is not covered by the principle of free speech.
Also, I presume Trump’s comments on Gen Milley had to do with his calling a Chinese general about his paranoia about Trump ordering a nuclear strike on his way out. Milley’s actions were arguably toeing the line of treasonous behavior.
Miley's actions were nowhere near toeing the line, they were an Olympic running long jump beyond that.
So scaring the living shit outta the Chinese and having had (or seriously risking) mass murder (nuke war) would have been better? How much better, and WHY?
Here was what Bob Woodward alleged.
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1437811421924954118
So scaring the living shit outta the Chinese and having had (or seriously risking) mass murder (nuke war) would have been better? How much better, and WHY?
Questions not even VAGUELY addressed!
"What do you want for breakfast?"
"Food is often considered to be medically necessary, by some doctors."
So, you do not believe Bob Woodward?
I don't know; I wasn't there, and have enough humility to admit it. Whether or not I believe Bob Woodward doesn't matter, especially after most of us are dead from a senseless nuclear war. War-lovers cannot be reasoned with, though, so... Have a good day!
If Milley actually promised to warn China about an attack by the U.S, as Bob Woodward alleged, then it is treason.
All of the American dead in a Trumpistian nuclear war will NOT matter to Trump, 'cause they will all be LOSERS, and Trump respects and treasures ONLY the WINNERS!!! Who has time or respect for LOSERS?
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/02/politics/john-kelly-donald-trump-us-service-members-veterans/index.html
Well, I had to check the name to find out who was fucking stupid enough to make that sort of comparison.
Not surprised; the spastic asshole is 'way down on the IQ numbers. Or 'number'.
Yeah dude, the way to save democracy is to make sure people don't have the opportunity to vote for the most popular candidate.
Seriously, how are attempts to remove Trump from ballots not an attack on democracy?
So democracy is, and must remain, a suicide pact, for those who wish for shit? Supporting a candidate who has announced His opposition to the USA Constitution, who will then swear allegiance to the same USA Constitution, does NOT strike you as a joke? Who are you, the Joker?
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
“Supporting a candidate who has announced His opposition to the USA Constitution…”
Joe Biden is the only candidate running for the Democrat’s nomination, he is quite opposed to the US Constitution, at least where it limits his authority.
Whatabout? Whatabout voting for NOT-Trump in the "Team R" primary, or voting Libertarian? Whatabout NOT ending democracy?
ᴍʏ Fʀɪᴇɴᴅ's ᴍᴏᴍ ᴍᴀᴋᴇs $73 ʜᴏᴜʀʟʏ ᴏɴ ᴛʜᴇ ᴄᴏᴍᴘᴜᴛᴇʀ . Sʜᴇ ʜᴀs ʙᴇᴇɴ ᴏᴜᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ᴊᴏʙ ғᴏʀ 7 ᴍᴏɴᴛʜs ʙᴜᴛ ʟᴀsᴛ ᴍᴏɴᴛʜ ʜᴇʀ ᴄʜᴇᴄᴋ ᴡᴀs $20864 ᴊᴜsᴛ ᴡᴏʀᴋɪɴɢ ᴏɴ ᴛʜᴇ ᴄᴏᴍᴘᴜᴛᴇʀ ғᴏʀ ᴀ ғᴇᴡ ʜᴏᴜʀs.
GO HERE.....workstimedollar.COM
this article is not about voting. It is aboutlegal priciples surrounding freedom of speech. In no way can my comments here be considered an election endorsement of Trump.
You're the one screeching about democracy. Democracy means that if people want to elect Trump, they get to elect Trump.
I'm all for voting for someone other than Biden or Trump, or not voting at all. But Trump isn't some unique threat. Biden explicitly and flagrantly ignores the constitution and wants to get us into war with Russia.
And it would all be a fucking joke if it weren't for the deadly consequences.
So, Trump questioning the legitimacy of the election is not upholding the Constitution? Last time I checked, he still has the constitutional right to question anything.
He should be questioning His own fitness for office! Along with His decency!
(This Emperor-TrumptatorShit has no clothes.)
I can’t upvote this enough.
Second.
You beat me to that!
Count me in as well, but, what did you expect from Sullum?
now apply this logic to Jan 6 and Trump
Why? Trump is an actual enemy to the Democrats, while BLM was created to help Democrats win elections.
The goal is to help Democrats win elections, not Trump. Thus the double standards.
+++++
Basically, what we've got here is the "Organize a crime, be liable for anything that goes wrong during it" principle. He illegally organized a protest in the road, deliberately blocking traffic. That arguably makes him liable for anything that he could have reasonably anticipated might go wrong.
Same principle where you're responsible if anybody gets shot during an armed robbery, even if you didn't pull the trigger.
Oh, and are we pretending that BLM doesn't plan on rioting and looting? It's a key part of their tactics!
Never happen.
My thought, exactly. Sullum sometimes has reasonable articles on libertarian issues - except when it comes to Trump. He’s obviously trying to uphold some sort of reputation amongst libertarians, while likely getting paid to bash Trump at every opportunity.
Hmmmm, I recall something like this being done to KKK leaders.
Don't tell me.
That's different, right?
"Holding Protest Leaders Liable for Others' Violence Threatens First Amendment Rights"
Except if they're orange and tweet mean. Then it doesn't have to be violence, just "parading" will do.
You mean breaking windows and barriers to parade inside the capitol building. Right?
I'm way more sympathetic to election deniers than BLM and I don't think Trump did anything criminal on J6, but minimizing it to "parading" takes away the credibility of your otherwise valid point.
You mean breaking windows and barriers to parade inside the capitol building. Right?
Hey, TDS-addled dumbfuck, he put “parading” in quotes and, in the context of the article, exactly how many windows did Trump break? How many people were physically assaulted by the protestors?
You shit-stupid asshat sea lion, if you’re head weren’t since the beginning, no one has been opposed to (e.g.) 3-6 mos. community service for breaking windows or crashing through obstacles. The whole point even raised by the protesters at the capital is that BLM, Antifa, and the CHAZ bullshit lit fires, looted businesses, and assaulted people in the streets and got, comparatively, zero punishment.
If you’re too shit stupid to clue in on all of that, maybe you should save everyone else your stupidity and, one way or the other, shut your mouth permanently.
You dumb, equivocating on behalf of thugs, looters, and arsonists “I’m just trying to have an honest/valid conversation.” sea lioning fuck.
Hey Trump fans! First, He despises military folks and veterans, and now THIS! Trump thinks that YOU (MAGATs) are pieces of shit, too! THINK about shit, now, willya?!?!
https://news.yahoo.com/ex-pence-aide-recalls-trump-084346754.html Ex-Pence Aide Recalls What Trump Said About MAGA Fans In Private. It's Not Good.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/08/coastal-snob-trump-mocks-sessions-alabama-accent-degree.html
Trump is a Snob Who Secretly Despises His Own Supporters
Then you gotta include the months of violent assaults on capitol buildings as part of BLM as well as the CHAZ seizure of territory from the US. Now BLM is a bit more than a simple protest and he's a leader of a rebellion against the US.
I won't argue for a second that BLM is/was just a simple protest. My point is that if you minimize J6 to a "simple peaceful protest" you lose credibility to call out BLM for what it was.
Die.
No you
There's the difference between BLM and WLM.
How many murders not by Leo's were in J6? How many billions in damages from arson and looting? You hold the lesser to exaggerated account then try to equivalents the two. Crawl back to Jacobin or Salon you marxist apologist.
You hold the lesser to exaggerated account
Where?
then try to equivalents the two.
Where?
I won’t argue for a second that BLM is/was just a simple protest.
Go fuck yourself you blatant, pathological, lying asshat. You're literally arguing that people being beaten in the streets, private businesses across the country being looted and set on fire, the arson of federal buildings and local PDs is as simple as a hopping a few barricades and a few broken windows.
You aren't being reasonable or trying to make a point, you're deliberately trying to equivocate on behalf of violent arson, widespread destruction, and physical violence by pretending that several hundred to several thousand dollars worth of broken glass, that happened after all the looting, arson, and violence, is somehow equivalent or made it all justified.
You're literally playing retarded in a fundamentally underhanded deception to convince people that your retardation makes you a victim and, therefore, morally right.
With morality like that, no one should give a single shit about anything you cay and everyone would be best served by you trying to shove a rusty pitchfork up your ass sideways.
Calm down...It's OK. Have you heard of BetterHelp?
Calm down
Again, classic egomaniacal sociopathic behavior. You aren't a psychiatrist and even if you were, the forums of the internet are a terrible place to attempt to practice because you can't actually know if people are calm or not.
To wit, the only reason you say "Calm Down" is under the unsubstantiated assumption that I'm emotional and, more critically, I'm irrational because I'm emotional. I'm not.
I'm not upset or angry. You just actually are shit stupid, your stupid egomaniacal sympathy ploys are transparent, and everyone else would generally be better off if you tried to shove a rusty pitchfork up your ass sideways.
BetterHelp doesn't change facts.
I was just trying to joke with you.
The sarc excuse..
The dude that broke the windows, and the dude that cut down the barriers were feds
Less than 25% of those charged for J6 committed any violence or vandalism.
There were entries on two sides of the Capitol. One people were simply let in by officers, see Brandon Straka video. The other had some violence.
Youre pushing a narrative.
Less than 25% of those charged for J6 committed any violence or vandalism...The other had some violence.
It seems like we're saying the same thing. It was a protest with some violence, vandalism and trespassing. So why is my statement "pushing a narrative?"
Because even by classical liberal/libertarian precepts, 10 counts of breaking a windows objectively isn't the same thing as 10 counts of arson.
This would be obvious if you weren't a shit-stupid sea lion trying to be stupid, while trying to seem rational and polite, on purpose. Alas, you aren't honest or rational or polite, you're just maliciously stupid.
you aren’t honest or rational or polite,
I attempt to converse online as I would in person. I strive to be honest, rational and polite, but I'm (just about?) human so I don't always succeed.
I attempt to converse online as I would in person.
I never said you didn't. It wouldn't surprise me one iota to learn that you're irrational, passive aggressive, sociopathically egomaniacal, and oxymoronically dishonest in real life.
No, real, honest, rational, genuine person would say "I won’t argue for a second that BLM is/was just a simple protest. My point is that if you minimize J6 to a “simple peaceful protest” you lose credibility to call out BLM for what it was." out loud, off-stage, person to person in real life. Their rationality, introspection, innate sense of morality and objective sense of self would right their thinking, even if only in their own self-interest, about how broken windows in a public building they like to use but don't own in no way excuses or justifies burning down their business or the local police station or court house, let alone all the arsons, looting, and beatings relatively.
You're more subversively and pathologically egomaniacal than Trump and, worse, more broadly socially destructive in method and/or aim.
Casually Mad is projecting! Purely projecting!
OK. I think we're done here.
The sarc exit.
Out of curiosity, how many windows were broken by undercover members of law enforcement or by the CIs so numerous that the FBI literally lost track of how many there were?
Out of curiosity, how many windows were broken by undercover members of law enforcement or by the CIs so numerous that the FBI literally lost track of how many there were?
I don't know. Assuming the feds wouldn't allow one of their own to be criminally charged, few to none?
"Assuming the feds wouldn’t allow one of their own to be criminally charged", the lack of charges against the agent provocateurs does not mean that they weren't doing most if not all of the breaking. There's a pattern here that goes right back to the FBI infiltration of 1960's radical groups - the FBI plants could be identified as the ones who advocated crimes and violence most strongly.
READ the below and hang your tiny brainless, power-lusting shit-head in SHAME for always taking the side of Trumpanzees, power-luster-pig!
https://www.jpost.com/international/kill-him-with-his-own-gun-dc-cop-talks-about-the-riot-655709 also https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/28/michael-fanone-trump-gop-riots/
‘Kill him with his own gun’ – DC cop talks about Capitol riot
DC Police officer Michael Fanone: I had a choice to make: Use deadly force, which would likely result with the mob ending his life, or trying something else.
“Pro-law-and-order” Trumpturds take the side of trumpanzees going apeshit, making cops beg for their lives! For trying to defend democracy against mobocracy! Can you slime-wads sink ANY lower?!?!
Has he got video to back up his story? If not, remember that cops lie frequently and flagrantly.
If he does have video, remember that there are other videos from the other side of the Capitol Building that show perfectly peaceful protestors - but the prosecutors have been charging the peaceful protestors with the actions of those on the other side.
Now do Trump.
Trump was Commander in Chief of the military at the time. Could He have commanded Captain Sir Dude Sir, Air Force Pilot, to go and bomb Nancy Pelosi's house, under the rubric of "free speech"? Without being blamed or punished? ... I have no giant "punishment boner". Excluding Trump from EVER running for office again, would be good enough for me.
https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment14/annotation15.html#:~:text=This%20means%2C%20at%20least%20theoretically,Amendment%20has%20never%20been%20clear.
"This means, at least theoretically, that politicians who participate in or encourage a rebellion against the government can not only be removed from office but prevented from holding state and federal offices in the future. However, how disqualification works under the 14th Amendment has never been clear."
Well then, let's clarify and enforce it! Else democracy dies!
With great power, comes great responsibility. Trump can no longer be trusted... He is a demonstrated enemy of democracy!
Idiot.
Fascist power pig!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Trump has ZERO respect for the document that He wants to swear allegiance to AGAIN! He's a sworn enemy of what he wants to swear allegiance to! And YOU and your fellow Trumpaloo jokers want to replace democracy with a JOKE, a fraud, and a TrumptatorShit!
Again, the alternative is not someone who will respect the constitution. Biden doesn't even pretend to.
Does soros offer benefits as part of his employment package?
None of them can be trusted. It's not like we have a choice between Trump and someone who is honest and principled and trustworthy.
Nikki Haley or Chris Christie would be good places to start out from at least... They have NOT announced their wanting to shit all over the USA Constitution, in search, always, for more POWER and personal GLORY, all else be damned!
People are free to vote for whatever candidate they want. None of them respect the constitution when it doesn't suit their needs.
Own goal, Sullum?
LOL at the comments: Now do Trump.
Hitler never killed any Jews, gays, cripples, and Gypsies… He merely egged on OTHER people to do the killing! And THAT was exercising Hitler’s “free speech rights”! Now “Hang Mike Pence”, with Trump’s blessings!
The Jan. 6 select committee has heard testimony indicating that then-President Donald Trump — after rioters who swarmed the Capitol began chanting “hang Mike Pence” — expressed support for hanging his vice president, according to three people familiar with the matter.May 25, 2022
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/25/trump-expressed-support-hanging-pence-capitol-riot-jan-6-00035117#:~:text=The%20Jan.,people%20familiar%20with%20the%20matter.
INSURRECTION FALLOUT
Trump expressed support for hanging Pence during Capitol riot, Jan. 6 panel told The select panel has heard that, after “hang Mike Pence” chants broke out, the then-president expressed support for the prospect of hanging his No. 2, three people told POLITICO.
Oh, and execute General Milley AND the USA Constitution while you're at shit, too!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
"Hitler never killed any Jews, gays, cripples, and Gypsies… He merely egged on OTHER people to do the killing!"
The killings were the policy of the government Hitler held executive power over. It was a little more than just "egging on". There were directives and orders given. It was not Hitler merely being charismatically persuasive.
Try again.
So Trump floats "trial balloons" about executing General Milley AND the USA Constitution, and hanging Mike Pence, etc. And NO ONE obeys SO FAR... We may NOT be blessed yet again, if we are foolish and power-hungry enough to re-erect Him of the "Stolen Erections" yet again! Next time, the "trial balloons" might NOT get shot down by those smarter and more benevolent than Trump!
Then there is putting babies and children in wire cages, and losing track of which kids belong to whom, under the Trumpster. It's not killing 6 million Jews, but it gravitates in the same general direction... At our peril!
Again, you are comparing the official policies of he Nazi regime to Trump unwisely bloviating. They are not the same thing.
Yes, the policies and facilities used to process people crossing the border illegally which existed under the Obama Administration continued under the Trump Administration.
DELIBERATELY (as a part of repelling and "fencing out" the deplorables) putting babies and children in wire cages, and losing track of which kids belong to whom, under Obama? When?
Besides that, there is the "whatabout" factor!
Butt, whatabout that them thar whatabouts? Whatabout Hillary? Whatabout OJ Simpson?
How many brain cells does it take to run a socio-political simulation on the following:
Judge and Jury: “Murderer, we find you guilty of murder! 20 years in the hoosegow for YOU! Now OFF with ye!”
Murderer: “But OJ Simpson got off for murder, why not me? We’re all equal, and need to be treated likewise-equal!”
Judge and Jury: “Oh, yes, sure, we forgot about that! You’re free to go! Have a good life, and try not to murder too many MORE people, please! Goodbye!”
Now WHERE does this line of thinking and acting lead to? Think REALLY-REALLY HARD now, please! What ABOUT OJ Simpson, now? Can we make progress towards peace & justice in this fashion?
(Ass for me, I think we should have PUT THE SQUEEZE on OJ!)
“DELIBERATELY (as a part of repelling and “fencing out” the deplorables) putting babies and children in wire cages, and losing track of which kids belong to whom, under Obama? When?”
When that story came out during the Trump years, it came out later that the pictures of the “kids in wire cages” were taken during Obama,s time in office. Children were separated from the adults they were found with due to concerns about human trafficking, and these things largely remain in place currently because our immigration system is overwhelmed by the numbers of illegal border crossings.
Which is why the “whataboutism” is such BS. The story was a “gotcha” piece against Trump intended to evoke an emotional reaction. They did not really care about the “kids in cages” under Obama, and they do not care about them now, under Biden. And they certainly do not care much about why the policy exists or what they think would be better solution to an actual problem immigration officials have to address.
"Now WHERE does this line of thinking and acting lead to?"
I am not sure what, if any, legal precedents from the OJ Simpson case one a defendant might invoke, but the concept of legal precedent is rather important to our judicial system and proper application of law.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/kids-in-cages-debate-trump-obama/2020/10/23/8ff96f3c-1532-11eb-82af-864652063d61_story.html
‘Kids in cages’: It’s true that Obama built the cages at the border. But Trump’s ‘zero tolerance’ immigration policy had no precedent.
From there...
Biden responded by stating, correctly, that the Obama administration did not systematically separate parents from their children at the border, a practice that generated such backlash that the first lady and Trump’s daughter Ivanka joined the groundswell of people who pressured him to end it.
Shades and degrees...
My point still stands is you are chucking out the "kids in cages" line for emotional effect hoping that people do not remember that it was a much more complicated and nuanced issue than that bumper sticker level slogan.
My point about whataboutism still stands...
How many brain cells does it take to run a socio-political simulation on the following:
Judge and Jury: “Murderer, we find you guilty of murder! 20 years in the hoosegow for YOU! Now OFF with ye!”
Murderer: “But OJ Simpson got off for murder, why not me? We’re all equal, and need to be treated likewise-equal!”
Judge and Jury: “Oh, yes, sure, we forgot about that! You’re free to go! Have a good life, and try not to murder too many MORE people, please! Goodbye!”
Now WHERE does this line of thinking and acting lead to? Think REALLY-REALLY HARD now, please! What ABOUT OJ Simpson, now? Can we make progress towards peace & justice in this fashion?
I already answered your silly OJ Simpson hypothetical, you have not addressed my response.
"... but the concept of legal precedent is rather important to our judicial system and proper application of law."
Sure, and it gets over-ridden ALL of the time!
But I'm not talking of judges and lawyers, I am talking about political argumentation by us peons. And whataboutism on our part gets us flat-out NOWHERE! ONLY 'fessing up to our OWN sins, and the sins of "Our Team", and then WORKING on said sins, gets us ANY progress!
Help Mom with the Dishes, Please!
Bear with me for a few minutes and this will make more sense.
Sometimes we have several ways of putting things (even though the thing described remains the same). Take some important flavors of hedonism, for example: “Wine, women, and song”. Old-time, cultured, almost poetic. “Sex, drugs, and Rock & Roll.” In your face, but humorous to think it is basically the same as the first. “Beer, the Old Lady, and TV.” Again humorous, low-brow, with a twinge of boredom-humor.
OK, different topic, but again, same thing described in different ways: Old-time high-brow: Ralph Waldo Emerson, “All men plume themselves on the improvement of society, and no man improves.” Modern humorous and ALMOST in-your-face: PJ O’Rourke, “Everybody wants to save the earth; nobody wants to help Mom do the dishes.” Short generic: “Work is love made visible”. Longer version by Khalil Gibran, “Work is love made visible. And if you can't work with love, but only with distaste, it is better that you should leave your work and sit at the gate of the temple and take alms of the people who work with joy”.
Old-old-OLD-time religious: “You’ve observed how godless rulers throw their weight around, how quickly a little power goes to their heads. It’s not going to be that way with you. Whoever wants to be great must become a servant. Whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.” Jesus, Matthew 20
Rampant poo-flinging (about politics) on the internet (forums, chat groups, etc.), does us no good either. This fits right in! And some things never change!
All the wind-bag self-righteous power pigs imagine themselves passing the perfect laws (and school-teaching rules for another example) in THEIR Holy Images, and all would be perfect! Meanwhile, no one (hardly anyone at least sometimes) is “helping Mom with the dishes”… CRT (“Critical Race Theory”) is a popular culture-politics fighting topic sometimes (early summer 2021). In this case, working peacefully with, and making friends with, people of other races (religions, political parties, etc.), and teaching all children (whenever you get a chance, and usually by example) to love all of their fellow humans, the trees, the bunny rabbits, and the Earth, and the human future, yada-yada… This is BORING! Akin to washing dishes!
Well, STOP that self-righteous bickering! Let’s all get off our asses, stop being arrogant know-it-all windbags, and go do some dishes!
That was quite a hefty word salad.
I derived it from the wise and benevolent writings of some strange person's web site located here: http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ ... It is AMAZING how much I agree with this writer, and so, I am glad that I found this web site!
How is 'protest peacfully' bloviating?
"Bloviating" means "talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way".
Bloviating and peaceful protecting are certainly not mutually exclusive. In fact, much peaceful protecting involves bloviating.
Is that all he has ever said? Trump is a bloviator. It's pretty much his whole style.
Christian National Socialist SS (Protective Squads) had pretty good Qualified Immunity and protection from snooping reporters until May 1945. They also got Faith-Based Asset Forfeiture looting rights better than what G Waffen Bush offered Serve and Protect Squads before the 2008 Crash and Depression.
Hi again, Hank!
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What is altruism if not egging suckers on into the initiation of force against innocent third parties?
Is this article about Trump?
"You cannot apply this to Jan 6! This is about the trampling of free speech rights of the radical leftwing protesters of BLM, who I have deep sympathy for! It is a completely different situation!" Sullum, probably.
The funny thing is, inevitably, in the TDS-addled mind, all the “Now do Trump.” will be interpreted as rabid ultra-mega MAGA Trumpism and unbridled support for Trump. Even if the person advocating the “Now do Trump” position never voted for him and never will.
The idea that anyone else anywhere has ever had their 1A rights abused in the *exact* same or even similar fashion and that Trump is jut an extremely visible and conspicuous example will never occur to them. Because either intrinsically, as the result of TDS, or both, whether they will admit to it or not, they don’t believe in Free Speech or equality before the law.
Yep. We'd better watch out. We might get sent to Hilary's re-education camps.
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Look at the positive side. Physicians who lie under oath to help politicians enact sumptuary laws that unleash guys with guns on production, trade and enjoyment may soon be tried as instigators. A step further would drag them into the dock as liable for someone retaliating against Offissa Pupp's initiation of enforcement. This could reverse asset forfeiture and turn it into transfer payments--from those who instigate and enact aggression to the victims who feel it on their hides.
Hi once again, Hank! This is a bit predictable.
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>>A lawsuit against a Black Lives Matter activist could have a chilling impact on constitutionally protected activity.
so where do we go with arresting the leading opposition party candidate and former president?
That question is so obvious, one would think Sullum would at least pre-emptively address it.
In Los Angeles, we have video footage of BLM member Jason Reedy stalking, assaulting and then battering councilmember Kevin DeLeon, but Mayor Karen Bass will not allow the LAPD to arrest Jason Reedy. Kevin DeLeon and two other Mexican councilmembers have been subjected to a year long character assassination by BLM with Mayor Karen Bass's approval. They have threatened the lives of the family members of the city council, stormed city hall, close down city council with violence, but Mayor Karen Bass is steadfast in her interference that none may be held accountable for the behavior. Is it any wonderful that people are no longer safe on the streets?
The reality which we see is outrageous obstruction of justice by the Mayor to protect her political allies. The mayor does not dictate to the LAPD which laws to enforce. Oh excuse me. I guess the mayor does dictate. That's because LA does not run on the rule of law but on the whim of whoever is in power.
So let me see if I have this straight: when someone organizes a protest protected by the First Amendment and someone else does something violent during the protest, the organizer can be sued for damages. But when a police officer personally intentionally violates someone’s rights they cannot be sued for damages? So much for “equal protection under the law!” I think I am beginning to have some doubts about the wisdom of the people who make these laws and the people who vote them into office …
The TDS-addled shit-pile Sullum lacks a bit of self-awareness, don't he? And brain-cells in large numbers.
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