Do Social Media Algorithms Polarize Us? Maybe Not.
A series of studies suggest it's not algorithms that are driving political polarization, ignorance, or toxicity online.

A safer, saner social media world is possible, former Facebook product manager Frances Haugen told members of Congress in 2021. Instead, she said, leaders at the social media company chose engagement over democracy, using algorithms that kept people glued to the site but also angry, anxious, and ill-informed.
Haugen's diagnosis of the cause of our current political dysfunction (social media algorithms) and cure ("get rid of the engagement-based ranking" of content and return to displaying posts in simple chronological order) has become dogma for many politicians, members of the press, and would-be change-makers. Doing away with algorithms would also halt hate speech and misinformation, these groups insist.
But more and more research is casting doubt on such claims. The latest comes from a collaboration between academics and Facebook parent company Meta, who set out to explore the impact of algorithms in the lead-up to the 2020 election.
The first results from this project were published in four papers in July. Michael W. Wagner, the project's independent rapporteur, called the studies works of "independent," "rigorous," and "ethical" research.
With users' consent, researchers tweaked various elements of their Facebook feeds to see what effect it would have on things like political outlooks and media diet. The interventions differed by study, but all revolved around assessing how Facebook algorithms affected user experiences.
What they found cuts to the heart of the idea that Facebook could produce kinder, better informed citizens by simply relying less on engagement metrics and algorithms to determine what content gets seen. "Both altering what individuals saw in their news feeds on Facebook and Instagram and altering whether individuals encountered reshared content affects what people saw on the platforms," reported Wagner in the July 28 issue of Science. But "these changes did not reduce polarization or improve political knowledge during the 2020 US election. Indeed, removing reshared content reduced political knowledge."
In one study, led by Princeton University's Andy Guess and published in Science, select users were switched from algorithm-driven Facebook and Instagram feeds to feeds that showed posts from friends and pages they followed in reverse chronological order—just the sort of tweak social media critics like Haugen have pushed for. The shift "substantially decreased the time they spent on the platforms and their activity" and led to users seeing less "content classified as uncivil or containing slur words," concludes the study (titled "How do social media feed algorithms affect attitudes and behavior in an election campaign?").
But "the amount of political and untrustworthy content they saw increased on both platforms." Despite shifting the types of content users saw and their time spent on Facebook, the switch "did not cause detectable changes in downstream political attitudes, knowledge, or offline behavior" during the three-month study period.
Despite some limitations, "our findings rule out even modest effects, tempering expectations that social media feed-ranking algorithms directly cause affective or issue polarization in individuals or otherwise affect knowledge about political campaigns or offline political participation," the team concludes. They suggest more research focus on offline factors "such as long-term demographic changes, partisan media, rising inequality, or geographic sorting."
In another study—also led by Guess—researchers excluded re-shared content from some users' news feeds. These users wound up seeing substantially less political news ("including content from untrustworthy sources"), clicking on less partisan news, and reacting less overall. Yet "contrary to expectations," the shift didn't significantly alter "political polarization or any measure of individual-level political attitudes." Those in the experimental group also ended up less informed about the news.
"We conclude that though re-shares may have been a powerful mechanism for directing users' attention and behavior on Facebook during the 2020 election campaign, they had limited impact on politically relevant attitudes and offline behaviors," write Guess and colleagues in "Reshares on social media amplify political news but do not detectably affect beliefs or opinions," also published in Science.
In another experiment, researchers tweaked some Facebook feeds to reduce exposure to "like-minded sources" by about a third. As a result, these users indeed saw content from a more "cross-cutting" range of sources and less "uncivil" content. But this failed to alter their political attitudes or belief in misinformation.
Ultimately, the results "challenge popular narratives blaming social media echo chambers for the problems of contemporary American democracy," writes a research team led by Brendan Nyhan, Jaime Settle, Emily Thorson, Magdalena Wojcieszak, and Pablo Barberá in "Like-minded sources on Facebook are prevalent but not polarizing," published in Nature. "Algorithmic changes…do not seem to offer a simple solution for those problems."
For years, politicians have been proposing new regulations based on simple technological "solutions" to issues that stem from much more complex phenomena. But making Meta change its algorithms or shifting what people see in their Twitter feeds can't overcome deeper issues in American politics—including parties animated more by hate and fear of the other side than ideas of their own. This new set of studies should serve as a reminder that expecting tech companies to somehow fix our dysfunctional political culture won't work.
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Smacks of misinformation.
Social scientists, an oxymoron itself, study misinformation and disinformation. There's a recipe for success. I guess if it convinces people to write articles about them and make everything look hunky dory, that's success of a sort.
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yes
No. It's not. It's driven by [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] where the almighty Power-Mad government has no LIMITS and becomes a threat to everyone's livelihood. As-if the nation isn't just repeating well known history yet again.
Important caveats on these studies limit their utility.
1. The timing was such that opinions might have already been entrenched, with little impact of the manipulated algorithms reflecting such entrenchment.
2. Pew finds most Facebook posts are driven by the more extreme left & right influencers.
3. As many or more use YouTube as Facebook, minimizing the impact of manipulating only Facebook algorithms.
The jury remains out on the contribution of media algorithms in creating, enhancing or reinforcing polarization.
Don't forget Russia buying up all those ads so we elected literal Hitler. That had to have had an impact.
Faecepuke is the scrapings of unemployable influenzers of BOTH looter persuasions. What it needs is a Guyana Kool-Ade-cum-Reichstag-downfall app offering them a way out of life.
Also the users in the study consented to let the researchers alter their feeds. So they knew they were altering what they would see. Maybe that's why they didn't induce polarization or improve political knowledge. Shouldn't the study subjects been "blind" that something was going on? Granted you can't do that to unsuspecting customers, but then what can we really conclude from the study?
As a result, these users indeed saw content from a more "cross-cutting" range of sources and less "uncivil" content. But this failed to alter their political attitudes or belief in misinformation."
Labeling something misinformation is opinion, not fact. The study is flawed in its premise.
If someone posts that the moon landing was fake, is describing it as misinformation opinion or fact?
If someone says that COVID-19 likely escaped from the COVID research lab in Wuhan, rather than from an ethnic food market that coincidentally was also in Wuhan, is describing it as misinformation opinion or fact?
Deflecting from the point of my question. MoLa stated that describing something as misinformation is opinion, not fact. I provided an instance - after all the claim that the moon landings were faked is not new - to find out what he thinks of as opinion, or how he defines "misinformation" and whether that applies to things that simply aren't true.
No. You tried to deflect with an appeal to ridicule when you knew the point he was making. You did a terrible job too.
"You tried to deflect "
I don't see it as a deflection, but pointing out that misinformation is mis-stating a fact, usually with the purpose to deceive or persuade. Labelling something disinformation or not comes down to the facts of the matter, not one's opinion.
You don’t get it. Any time anyone disagrees with ML, JA or the any other Trumpista, or agrees with SPB or anyone the Trumpistas have labeled as “leftist,” the response is to attack the person with accusations of deflection, defending, white knighting, supporting leftist narratives, and whatever else. It is always in bad faith. Always. So don't read posts like that assuming they're making a good faith argument. They're not.
Pour sarc.
Step away for the computer and the retards flood in.
Alright Diet Shrike, metooman, and Sarckles, listen up:
"If someone posts that the moon landing was fake, is describing it as misinformation opinion or fact?"
My opinion is that the moon landing occurred. Although I have done zero investigation myself, such as visiting the moon landing site to check it out, I have decided to place my faith in others who were actually alive at the time and claimed to have participated in the program.
However, my belief that the landings happened is based solely on the testimony of those who I hope are trustworthy.
Because I did not witness the moon landings or seen physical evidence with my own eyes, my belief in them is just as much a matter of faith as the hoaxers.
I can say I disagree with them, but to censor and silence them like you three fascist chucklefucks want to do would be the height of hubris.
So I ask you three authoritarian fucks. Will you censor someone who posts that the moon landing was fake?
Is describing it as misinformation opinion or fact?
Pieces of Nazi shit.
Nice summary.
Not proposing to censor Moonshot Deniers, of course, but there is more than just faith and belief in mere testimony to establish that men went to the Moon.
After all, the Astronauts did bring back dust and rocks from the Moon. Wouldn't data about the rocks' and dusts' composition and their structure and their differences from rocks and dust on Earth confirm that men went to the Moon?
Also, couldn't radar have tracked the speed of the Saturn V rocket and the Command and Lunar Modules to confirm that they were traveling beyond Orbital Velocity of 18,000 Miles Per Hour and approaching Escape Velocity of 25,000 Miles Per Hour?
Moreover, the bottom of the Command Module was scorched as it descended through the atmosphere to Earth. Wouldn't the pattern of the scorching confirm that the Command Module was where it was in the atmosphere and descended at a speed sufficient to create the scorching?
Myself, I'm just a Citizen Dabbler and Perpetual Scholar, but judging from what I know about the facts, it makes sense to me that it wasn't "Only A Paper Moon."
.
Is that a "yes" or a "no"?
To Truthfulness, I ask: "Yes" or "no" to what?
Shrike isn't going to fuck you sarc. Youre way too old for him.
In the same post sarc labels others trumpistas (despite those he listed having criticized trump more than he has criticized Biden) he cried about being called a leftist. Lol.
"So don’t read posts like that assuming they’re making a good faith argument. "
Whether good faith or bad, it was a stupid comment. Anyone who disagrees is a white knight or a sea cucumber.
You and sarc are definitely on the same level of intelligence.
And that level is the sub basement.
Am I supposed to be offended? Offend harder, or find a new shtick.
I answered your question, now answer my question, you censorious piece of shit.
Will you censor someone who posts that the moon landing was fake?
Since you haven't been to Tranquility base yourself, is describing it as misinformation opinion or fact?
Trumpanzee schaißposts are the raison d'être désigne of the Flag Comment and Moot Lewser buttons. (Trumpanzees can look it up later.) I never see their screed. It's only purpose is to convince the casual visitor that Reason is a coven of mystical, girl-bullying, right-wing, road-banning anarchists.
I don't think he put much thought into the post. A simplistic generalization hastily written to debunk the article. The fact that he declines to defend it is telling.
I think you put zero thought in your white knight pile on.
Unless you were at Cape Canaveral or Tranquility Base your belief is faith based opinion. It may have come to you from sources you consider authoritative, but it's a belief none the less.
It certainly doesn't give you the authority to silence other opinions you fascist fuck.
Why you gotta harsh on mtumor's dreams of fascism, ML?
In the name of Herr Hitler, I order you to be silent.
Who cares what that liberal thinks.
"In the name of Herr Hitler, I order you to be silent."
He's only pretending to be sarcastic, folks.
I'm only pretending to respond to your comments.
Reminder: mtueman spouts nonsense as an end to itself.
Is that a “pose,” just like you claim that Hitler’s Anti-Semitism was a “pose?”
Tell us all about it, Watermelon Rickshaw Boy.
How’s that “Steele dossier” doing these days?
What a terrible example to use while defending the admitted bias of pushing mainstream media, the same entity to win awards for their false Russian collusion stories and buried true stories like the laptop.
#DefendDemocratsAtAllCost
Still deflecting away from the point.
If you or MoLa had had the intellectual honesty to say that much misinformation is opinion not fact, I wouldn't have taken issue - indeed, the problem with the term misinformation is that it is often used to describe things which truly are matters of opinion. But it is not invariably so, and as both you and he lack both intellect and honesty, little wonder he gets it wrong and you can't address the point.
It seems that you lot go all post-modernist on misinformation.
Your entire post was an attempt to deflect with an appeal to ridicule shrike.
Fucking projecting buddy.
Me: "Labeling something misinformation is opinion, not fact."
Diet Shrike: "If you or MoLa had had the intellectual honesty to say that much misinformation is opinion not fact"
Utterly fucking retarded.
To drive home the point, in the last three years Diet Shrike and pals used the words "misinformation" and "disinformation" to push actual misinformation and disinformation about Covid's provenance, remedies and the safety and efficacy of mRNA injections, about Trump's ties to Russia, Brian Sicknick's death, the purported residential school mass graves and Hunter Biden's laptop.
All turned out to be garbage, but people lost their speech, social media accounts and some even their jobs.
And yet this budding Nazi has the balls to talk about "facts".
Fuck him.
And when the misinformation or disinformation is shown to come from the left they start calling the people who were right the entire time conspiracy theorists.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Almost everything that Team Blue's megaphone has said in the last eight years has been shown to be bullshit, but they still want to censor Joe Schmoe for doubting them.
With sarc pretending to be the one true libertarian cheering it on to help the left.
"" the problem with the term misinformation is that it is often used to describe things which truly are matters of opinion."'
This.
And it doesn't matter if it's call dis or mis. People's posts on social media are largely opinions. It is opinions being moderated as if opinions are required to be facts. It's an attempt to control what you are allowed to express.
The lab leak theory is in the realm of possibility. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant. It's an opinion and it should not have been treated the way it was.
As a result, these users indeed saw content from a more "cross-cutting" range of sources and less "uncivil" content. But this failed to alter their political attitudes or belief in misinformation.
I haven't read the linked "study" but this article certainly didn't seem to enumerate what and which pieces of "misinformation" people continued to "believe in" things that both the article and the study seem to have identified falsehoods.
I'm guessing, given the rise of the misinformation industrial complex, and how that industry essentially spews misinformation on an industrial scale, I'm guessing the things the study authors breezily brush off as "misinformation" is nothing of the sort, or at least as point of fact, don't have a clear, binary true/false condition.
If someone posts that the moon landing was fake, is describing it as misinformation opinion or fact?
Neither. Just by describing it as misinformation you are attaching the information to a new category that is neither opinion or fact. To those that witnessed the moon landing, it would be arguably fact. But to those that came years later, and were presented another view of the moon landing - it was a movie studio filmed in Hollywood for example - there might be some sense that the moon landing itself is now 'misinformation'. The term misinformation now has no roots in either opinion or fact. In fact, it is often now associated with lies that are revealed at a later time.
Yeah. And I'd like a definition of "untrustworthy websites".
Wasn't Reason on some similar list because they let us talk down here?
Wrongthink is scary, dude.
The algorithms were asked to investigate themselves and they discovered that they were not guilty.
The misinformation is coming from.... inside the code!
LOL
Exactly. ENB is a loyal serf.
"The latest comes from a collaboration between academics and Facebook parent company Meta . . . "
Now there's a group I would trust completely.
For a happy and more free life, drop all social media.
And stop watching the news on TV.
My observation is that there is no news on TV - - - - - - -
But yeah, those propaganda shows are also a waste of electrons.
That's already happening.
total news viewers
ABC 8,098,000
NBC 6,742,000
CBS 4,829,000
PBS 900,000
total 20,569,000
age 25 - 54
ABC 1,288,000
NBC 1,113,000
CBS 752,000
PBS N/A
total 3,153,000
The late night comedy shows, Colbert etc, have supplanted traditional TV news shows to some extent. They cover much of the same ground with style and humor.
Get real, even less are watching late night talk shows.
They were more popular a few years back. And they mined the news for its comic potential.
A decade isn’t a few, grandpa.
And they didn’t mine the news for comic potential. They put on a clown nose and read Media Matters talking points to canned laughter.
Mostly it was just applause from the trained seals in the audience.
"They put on a clown nose and read Media Matters talking points to canned laughter."
You seem to have watched more than I have. So I defer to your expertise. But reading media matters with a clown nose was enough to siphon viewers from the other traditional news shows that you prefer.
Which news shows?
MSNBC?
"reading media matters with a clown nose was enough to siphon viewers"
As several others here have pointed out the ratings say otherwise. Traditional newscasts and your late night shows both lost to the internet together.
"As several others here have pointed out the ratings say otherwise."
Do yourself a favor. Put those morons on mute.
Take it from a graveyard worker with big screens usually on the networks, “They put on a clown nose and read Media Matters talking points to canned laughter” describes late night shows perfectly.
Seth Meyers is the worst.
Colbert is the most talented. If you can bring yourself to watch him, you might enjoy. Funny and he takes politics seriously.
Ratings are way down for the shows you mention dumdum.
They were quite popular for a while and unlike Johnny Carson, Letterman and others, they took the news seriously, but comically. Personally, I found Colbert and others more informative and entertaining when doing the news than the more traditional parade of Hollywood celebrities showing their latest clips and trotting out tired anecdotes.
Explains the inanity of your views.
I'm glad you learned something. I promise you for a while, starting with John Stewart late night comedy turned political in a big way, and young viewers turned on. I understand you disapprove of this turn of events. You've made that very clear. Repeatedly.
Except Colbert's views were tedious and predictable. Carson would, bare minimum, make fun of both sides. Not one only.
Makes it dull as all hell.
"Carson would, bare minimum, make fun of both sides. Not one only."
Shows that Carson never took politics seriously. Colbert is serious about politics, much as you may not like to admit it.
Colbert wasn’t fit to clean Carson’s ash tray.
He’s just a stupid hack you agree with.
Carson never took politics seriously. Sure, he made jokes about the foibles of politicians, but that doesn't make him political. Colbert, on the other hand, is serious about politics. Some comedians are. Lenny Bruce, George Carlin and lots more took politics as seriously as they took their comedy. Carson was not one of them.
How un-serious was Carson?
""Shows that Carson never took politics seriously.""
Then perhaps Colbert should run for office and leave comedy to people like Carson.
If you take politics seriously you probably are not a comic.
"If you take politics seriously you probably are not a comic."
You wouldn't siphon off viewers from the traditional news shows in that case. Colbert, Stewart and others were explicitly political and drew material from the issues of the day. Carson didn't. I think Mike Douglas, a daytime host and Carson contemporary, was more political, giving the show over to John and Yoko for a week during their 'bed peace' campaign. I suppose you disapprove of this move as much as you do Colbert's efforts.
Carson and Letterman were not new shows, moron. They were entertainment.
Colbert, John Stewart et al tried to make the news funny, like a late night show. Colbert was originally a parody on Stewart's show. None of it is news.
Trevor Noah was the epitome of bad political shtick pretending to be comedy.
"Carson and Letterman were not new shows, moron. They were entertainment.
Colbert, John Stewart et al tried to make the news funny, like a late night show. "
Thanks for your support. I agree except for the moron part.
“Comedy” shows. Lol.
The joke's on you. You'd know that if you paid attention.
Less than 0.1% of the nation pays attention to late night shows.
"Less than 0.1% of the nation pays attention to late night shows."
About the same number pay attention to my comments here. The difference is Colbert is a rich man thanks to the show you despise so much.
Yes. The left loves funding their narratives. Big deal.
He got rich because there are millions of commie half-wits like you.
Doubt he even understands the party loyalists are generally the wealthiest in authoritarian communist countries.
"He got rich because there are millions of commie half-wits like you."
Jealous?
Does not mean he is watched heavily (less than Greg Gutfeld) or is profitable (James Corden was LOSING $20M a year).
"Does not mean he is watched heavily"
He attracted viewers from regular tv news shows. There were quite a few others, too, though Colbert was the most talented.
The only jokes on those shows are the hosts.
"The late night comedy shows, Colbert etc, have supplanted traditional TV news shows to some extent. They cover much of the same ground with style and humor."
Their ratings are in the toilet and they do not make money much.
Gutfeld was beating all of the late night shows for a reason. And that was without celebrities regularly and on a cable news network.
"Their ratings are in the toilet and they do not make money much."
For a while they did well. They also covered much the same stories as the news programs. They attracted a young viewership.
"Gutfeld was beating all of the late night shows for a reason."
Different demographics. He goes for the boner pills and adult diaper crowd. But the point stands. Late night comedy has made inroads into the traditional news shows. You can't deny it.
And left wing “humor “ is losing.
Trying to disguise hatred as comedy wasn't a winning plan.
The latest comes from a collaboration between academics and Facebook parent company Meta
This comes from the same people who dismiss any climate studies that disagree with the narrative as "paid for by big oil".
Polarization is only a problem if politics is a noble pursuit.
I thought libertarians knew better.
It's only a problem if people with th he wrong views push back. Leftists like ENB are all fine with any lie that serves the marxist narrative.
^^^ THIS ^^^^. The left and their polarization complaints is exactly, "If you won't bow down and worship [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] then you are the problem and are biased, racist, sexist" ... and any other 1st-grade bully name they can dream up. It doesn't really matter what bad name they give. Because the very foundation of their unrestricted "democracy" is [WE] mob RULES you 'icky' ones. They are a gang of 'gov-gun' usage that has no respect for Individualism - Individual Liberty or Justice. It's all about [WE] gang building for them.
I contacted facebook and they say they aren't evil, and they are not working with the gov, and Hunter bidens laptop is Russian dis info.
I ENB the great libertine journalist have deemed it so by checking my sources at mother Jones and Jacobian and doing no other research or thought. Now I'm off to make a sandwhich, and convince girls to kill their babies
You had me going there until the bit about the sandwich.
The Algorithm is the Devil. And by that, I mean it is a fiction we tell ourselves to deny our own part in perpetuating Very Bad Things.
Humanity has split into polarized tribes ever since Ogg beat Grog with a stick and stole his cave. Our brains are very good at taking incomplete, contradictory information and using that to model our complex world. But this makes us prone to confirmation bias- where we select evidence to reinforce our internal model and disregard evidence against that model.
Our every day experiences tend to limit confirmation bias for the stuff that matters. No matter what you read or saw on a hollywood movie, when you are trying to do something for yourself, reality is the only evidence that matters. But when we try to theorize and explain things beyond our local scope of influence, confirmation bias run's rampant. The Internet means never having to change your model- never having to integrate contradictory information. You can believe that the Earth is flat and there are millions of people searching for and churning out information and analyses that agrees with that worldview. Since you will never be in a position to test this worldview, all you have to do is choose to believe them, instead of all the other information that disagrees with you.
When you sift through all the bullshit that polarizes us, you realize that it isn’t the Internet or The Algorithm behind it. It is instead our ability to create a bullshit model in our heads about shit that we don’t even experience. Whether we are talking about the economy, climate change, or the J6 protests, we are usually debating “evidence” and conclusions that none of us will ever experience. When we each settle on our individual Truth, that internal model is excessively vulnerable to confirmation bias, because these large, complex chains of cause and effect are built on shit we haven’t personally seen, and are never tested personally by any of us.
The Algorithm didn’t build that model in our heads. We did it ourselves. We found the information we wanted. And we choose to use that model, as untestable and unfalsifiable as it is.
It is a bit amusing that ENB’s milquetoast foray into this subject is…nothing more than her seeking a bit of The Science!(tm) that agrees with her worldview. There are dozens of other studies out there that contradict with this one. Why should we believe her chosen evidence instead of those other ones? This is yet another example of Reason’s failure to embrace subjects at their foundation. Because, like most of the rest of the Blue Bubble elites out there, Reasonistas tend to believe that they can Science! their way out of any problem. They did this during COVID, and ENB is doing it now.
But in fact, Science will never answer these deep questions. Whether or not there is an actual Algorithm, the real questions are internal. Do we choose to behave based on the testable world in front of us, or the “facts” we curate from the internet? Do we hate people we’ve never met? Do we pine for a Global community that we will never experience, or try to build a local community that actually has a testable, controllable impact on our lives? Do we cooperate with our neighbor, or demonize millions of faceless people based on the reporting of our preferred pundit?
+1
ENB engages in a lot of selection bias, as noted every time she did the daily Roundup. There are those here who fail to comprehend it, including one who drunk posts here far too often to engage in fights. She did selection bias, choosing those reports and papers that reinforce her worldview, and ignored any that contradict her worldview. It's her narrative, and she doesn't seem to be able to critically look at the narrative she's pushing.
"ENB engages in a lot of selection bias"
That's the job of the editor, sorting and selecting from the many stories that come to her attention.
" It’s her narrative, and she doesn’t seem to be able to critically look at the narrative she’s pushing."
It's the job. Pleasing her employer. If anything, it's the employer's narrative, not necessarily hers.
So you agree she shows bias.
Please tell sarc and Mike
"So you agree she shows bias."
You mean she doesn't choose her stories at random? We all know that. If your point is there's something evil behind the choices she makes, just say so. Otherwise accept the fact the choices she makes may differ from yours. ie Grow up.
So you agree she shows bias. Please tell sarc and Mike.
JesseAz pays more attention to what is not said than to what is said. If someone fails to report on something, he will explain why. If someone doesn’t say anything about a subject, he will explain what they think. If someone doesn’t answer a question, he will tell them what they think. In all cases he will call that person a liar if they disagree with the voices in his head. He’s a bad faith operator and a liar. Nothing more.
So if you engage with him, know what to expect. He's going to make stuff up about what you said, did, and think, and call you a liar when you defend yourself from his lies.
It's pointless.
Youre struggling today buddy. I get it. It was a hard and embarrassing week.
Project much from the inside of the bottle, Sarc?
He’ll be projectile vomiting later.
Sarc’s obviously still in the peevish, lying, name-calling stage. Full on liquor-pig crazy in 3… 2… 1…
""You mean she doesn’t choose her stories at random?""
No one is suggesting that.
"No one is suggesting that."
I would hope so. She chooses the stories according to the tastes and interests of herself and her employers. If you want to denigrate that as bias, it tells us more about you than anything else.
The shift "substantially decreased the time they spent on the platforms and their activity"
So:
a)this ain't even remotely what those platforms will do going forward as long as their business model is advertising-based.
b)it kind of makes me think that the problem may be that the polarization is more a personality trait of those who seek to waste a bunch of time on a social media platform rather than say spend time talking to people face-to-face.
c) it makes me wonder what the effect was in the past before we had social media tech to track every tidbit of activity/opinion. When radio/TV motivated us to look at a box inside our house box rather than sit on the front porch talking/listening. Or when print media starts declining so precipitously that a local source of confirm-my-bias opinion ceased to exist
Why does Reason treat algorithms like they are an impartial creation capable of no wrong? They reflect the will of those who program them. On Facebook specifically, I'd say the algorithms push content I don't want. Nearly every other post is an advertisement or video I didn't ask for and have no interest in. At least half of my feed is garbage that doesn't come from friends or pages I follow. It certainly doesn't drive extremism to the right because I only ever see right-leaning stuff from friends while it pushes left-leaning stuff from sources I have no interaction with. Even if it did feed me such content it would be severely limited by censorship. Factual posts are taken down by provably incorrect fact checks. Moderately uncivil posts are removed or hidden if they reflect right wing attitudes. All the while I am fed grossly incorrect and illogical government propaganda.
I want to see what friends share in reverse chronological order. This shuffling feed that prioritizes stuff seemingly at random or guided by advertising and political motivations feeds garbage and ruins the usefulness of it.
These studies are bs and only reflect the biases of those running and reporting them. From a political angle they do not drive extremism to both the left and right, but intentionally shift the overton window left
Reason doesn't understand how computers work at a fundamental level, thinking they are neutral in all acts. But algorithms are designed by people with biases. When I design an algorithm i have a purpose im attempting to design. Algorithms don't just magically appear. There is intention in every line of code. The editors are Reason should understand that it is largely akin to the stories they write and release. They have an intention of the story, what they want to say, and how they want to frame it. Algorithms are no different from the point of view of the code writer.
Then again, Reason writers don't think they have bias towards the two major parties either.
You insert personal biases and personal points of view into the code you write? Man. It must be absolute shit.
I know your community College degree to get A+ certification for windows administration makes you think you’re a programmer, but it doesn’t.
Every algorithm is developed in order to accomplish a purpose. The algorithm designer has an idea how to best account for that purpose. They don’t have perfect knowledge so they design algorithm based on their knowledge as to the best way to accomplish that purpose. They also have an expectation for the outcomes of their models. This is all bias you retarded fuck. One of the reasons you try to separate unit test development from algorithm development is to account for a coders bias and understanding of the issue.
Code and algorithns don’t magically appear from monkey on a typewriters. This is why code is constantly updated on modified as more sources of information come in. This is why peer reviews are a key aspect of coding.
Thank you for proving you dont understand coding.
In fairness, he’s also a hopeless alcoholic.
So you write shitty code. Got it.
Please. Keep showing everyone you dont know shit about programming. Lol.
Triple down again.
He’d be fun to play poker with.
He'd pull the fire alarm after losing the first hand.
The only reason I signed up with Facebook was to stay in touch with relatives who have mostly moved on to other platforms. I recognize none of the friend requests. The recommended articles have nothing of interest. It's a wasteland I check once or twice a month, and it's amazing that every other notification is for stranger requests.
Even with that I like it for marketplace and events. Marketplace is flooded with misleading ads from shady businesses. My events page is completely broken. It used to be good for loading my calender with a bunch of shows and family events to potentially go to throughout the month. Now it doesn't even work when I search for an event I know is listed on FB. The platform is destroying its own usefulness even on the mechanisms that have the most revenue potential
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Facebook is a shitty medium. I signed on because I needed to find a few people. Couldn't find them with it's crappy internal search, had to find them on a different user's friends list. You can't search for content either.
I would say the book of faces is telling you to quit bothering them.
Our current political dysfunction is because government is coercive. Enforce the NAP and prohibit government from initiating force and the problem is solved.
Enforce the US Constitution - which decided centuries ago the government should have LIMITS/prohibited.
Algorithms aren't why some people watch MSNBC while others watch FOX, each claiming the other does nothing but lie. That was going on long before Facebook became a big thing. People like echo chambers. They like to be validated. They like to scream and yell at people who disagree with them. That's political tribalism and treating politics like a team sport, not algorithms.
Polarization is not some constant across generations even if I suspect it ‘freezes’ very early.
The WW2 generation was not polarized imo except for issues of race. And in large part, that was because that war mobilization early on was a very anti-tribal event that everyone had in common. They remained less tribal than younger generations even as they got older (when tribalism tends to increase as people get more set in their ways). Manifested by voters splitting tickets, candidates tending to appeal to ‘the middle’ rather than the primary base, and elected pols crossing party lines to do ‘bipartisan’ things without a career-damaging consequence.
Very different from the Vietnam-era boomers who early on came into conflict among themselves on many ‘culture’ issues (though not in the long run war/peace issues). Those camps set up early and they still define the two tribes of their generation 60 years on. That generation of voters ticket-splits about 4-6% of the time (down from 15-30% overall on voting age population in the mid 1970’s). Which results in more negative red meat to the base rather than appeals to the middle – and less working across the aisle among the elected.
The younger generation Z and millennial SEEM to be more inclined to ticket split (be a bit less tribal) – but I’m not sure they really are voting that way. Rather ticket splitting is now viewed as ‘an idea’ among those who just aren’t paying much attention and hence aren’t voting – and the entire top-down emphasis of both parties/donors/consultants/etc is geared entirely to increasing polarization in order to nail down an active base. IOW – now that the parties/institutions are deemed ‘successful’ by increasing polarization, it is much less likely that individual voters can have any effect by splitting tickets and they will learn helplessness.
"Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right."
H.L. Mencken
1880-1956
I don't think that's new, at all.
And somehow you’re on the losing side regardless.
HL Mencken is good for quotes - but:
During his era, there were six constitutional amendments passed in Congress - and ratified by the states - in a 20 year period (1913-1933). That requires bipartisanship and supermajorities. There were 5 in the 20 years from 1950-1972 (boomers were not relevant in congress then). There hasn't been one passed by Congress since 1971 (the 27th was passed by Congress in 1789 and ratified in 1992 - even that latter is more a transition from WW2/silent/boomer) which is 50 years now. There is not the remotest possibility that any amendment could pass now.
And the fact is that voters did used to split tickets - quite deliberately to ensure gridlock
And candidates (and parties overall) tried to appeal to the middle
And critters now rarely cross the aisle to even talk - two really neat charts showing the changes since WW2.
Amendments to the constitution are no longer necessary as we interpret our way to new meanings that emanate from those interpretations. If we actually stuck to a closer reading of the text, we'd be amending it probably every 10 - 20 years.
Or in plain language; lawless politicians don't care what the Supreme Law over them says. They just make-up sh*t and pretend [WE] mob RULES is what the USA is about. As-if the state of our politics doesn't reflect that 100%.
Requiring the Amendment process would require 75% agreement across congress and every single State's representatives. It is much harder and rightfully so. So lawless criminals for politicians apparently can't be expected to follow any principle above their own Power-Madness.
Your side doesn't even accept existing post civil war amendments.
“Under democracy” <<<<<<<<<<<<<<—— THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
The USA is a *Constitutional* Union of Republican States.
""The younger generation Z and millennial SEEM to be more inclined to ticket split""
Not the ones I interact with. They are scorch level partisans that will throw a tantrum if you say republican.
Disclaimer, I live in NYC.
Example. You just yesterday choosing the lefts narrative about Trump's statements on mail in ballots while ignoring the primary evidence from his own campaign statements.
Another. You think Joe Biden respects the constitution.
Another. You think libertarians have more in common with the left despite censorship, political prosecutions, covid mandates, higher taxes, more regulation, etc.
Another. How you complain about every cop except the heros who shot a woman on J6.
Another. Unmarked vans to arrest violent BLM protestors was the worst thing in the world while FBI and cops embedded at J6 no issue, DoJ threatening 20 years for non violent J6 protestors, 22 years for a guy not even at the protests all no problem.
Youre a walking example of cognitive bias and ignorance.
JesseAz’s lies.
Number one – Trump did sow seeds of doubt about mail-in ballots, urging his follows not to trust them and to vote in person. Spent months doing it. Only at the run up to the election did he change his tune, but he seeds of doubt were sown.
Lie number two is based upon one single statement by Biden where he said the Constitution wouldn’t allow him to do something. I don’t remember what it was. Doesn’t mean I think he followed it. Just that he gave lip service which is more than Trump ever did.
Lie number three calls out a bunch of red herrings when he knows my point is based upon economic liberty. As far as taxes go, JesseAz fully supports hiking taxes on consumers who buy imports.
Lie number four I never called the capitol policeman a hero.
Lie number five I never said anything about anything in that comment. Every word is a lie.
So in summary, the entire post is a lie.
In other news, water is wet.
Fuck off you disingenuous, dishonest, malicious, mendacious, bad-faith arguing sack of shit.
You're still denying reality based on a narrative when given primary evidence showing youre pushing a lie lol.
How do you so easily lie about everything?
Sarc, everyone sees what you write. I link to your past statements all the fucking time. You've been caught lying a single thread multiple times. It is utterly pathetic how big of a piece of shit you are.
Everything I stated is true. You've had your past statements given to you time and time again. You are so delusional you just lie instead of admitting youre ever wrong. It is a pathetic trait.
You can't help it though. You lie to yourself as well. You're just an invariate liar. Constant lies. It is your primary ethos. Just sad and pathetic.
"Fuck off you disingenuous, dishonest, malicious, mendacious, bad-faith arguing sack of shit."
That's literally you, not Jesse, you trolly piece of garbage. Have you ever wondered why almost everyone here hates you and are always telling you to fuck off?
If you had an ounce of introspection you'd know the answer.
"Lie number two is based upon one single statement by Biden where he said the Constitution wouldn’t allow him to do something. I don’t remember what it was. Doesn’t mean I think he followed it. Just that he gave lip service which is more than Trump ever did.
Lie number three calls out a bunch of red herrings when he knows my point is based upon economic liberty. As far as taxes go, JesseAz fully supports hiking taxes on consumers who buy imports.
Lie number four I never called the capitol policeman a hero."
See, this is why we save your quotes, you lying sack of shit. Because you lie about the trollish shit you say when it becomes inconvenient.
Also, learn to use "red herring" correctly, FFS.
This post is insane.
Much if what you claim to be false is well documented... and has been shown to you. Why would you make such dishonest claims? It makes no sense.
Thank you for putting into words how I and many others feel about you, sarcasmic.
Prosecutors considering chaging Trump with violating firearms laws by holding a pistol in a gun shop for a few seconds.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/09/29/trump-gun-special-counsel-gag-order/
See, this is why I say that these Democratic Party agents need to stop fucking around and charge Trump with everything. Every law ever. From shopping on Sunday and buying tobacco for minors to murder and rape.
Something will eventually stick.
My own hypothesis is that increased polarization and toxicity is due to the fact that so much of our social interactions are online and not in person. Before ~2000, people still spent most of their time talking about politics with people in person that they were at least acquainted with. We were therefore much less likely to look at people with different political views as 'dangerous' or as 'enemies'.
Although, talk radio and cable news had already started to change our politics for the worse as opinion and commentary was taking an ever larger share of the political content people consumed. (There's a very good reason why the editorial and opinion pages are at the back of the news section of a traditional newspaper.)
To summarize, I see two factors driving polarization and toxic discourse:
1) Spending most of our time arguing with anonymous people online rather than friends, acquaintances, and family in person.
2) Consuming mostly opinion and commentary rather than straight news.
You could've just summed that whole thing up to be ignorance is bliss until tax season or a desire to create comes around. At that point ignorance doesn't work anymore.
You forgot:
3) Having a much wider range of news sources, many of them not part of the elite, news sources that are willing to expose the horrific abuses of power and corruption among our elites.
And 1-3 are all good and healthy for democracy and governance.
"We" do not use Chicom or Trumpanzee algos.
the issue is the way everyone seems to think that everything has "one thing" you can point to as the cause.
the algorithms are definitely part of the problem, but they really just feed the underlying human nature. we interact with strangers on line, so it becomes easier to dehumanize the "other." the internet is full of so much garbage that whatever you want to believe, you can find the confirmation bias to boost that belief. almost all social media is set up in a way that creates a biased experience..... (who is on your friends list, who you follow) the algorithm just makes it easier.... but the big problem is that it is what our lizard brains want.
getting rid of the algorithm does not change the human nature that drives it. the problem is the general lack of self awareness. people seek out what they want to hear. they seek to insult and attack those inhuman members of the other tribe. they seek popularity and acceptance. and most people have no idea how that all leads to them believing outrageous bullshit.
Pretending that the issue is "algorithms" is so incredibly quaint. Don't you know Bari Weiss, Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald, and company personally? At least on a casual level?
The CIA running their disinformation gambit here in the US is fairly well documented by them and others.
So why pretend that the issue is some innocuous algorithm that is innocently optimized for a comfortable feedback loop? That ship has clearly sailed... probably long before 2015.
Let us know when you have a set of independently conducted, peer-reviewed studies with broad sample sets and a meaningful consensus to write about. You are basing an opinion on a single Industry-funded study? Tobacco companies and others, also fund "rigorous empirical studies," all of which need to be taken with a giant spoonful of salt. You missed your own headline. The study you referenced merely suggests that the algorithms don't polarize people (with more research being needed), but clearly concluded that the algorithms kept people on the site (wasting their valuable time) longer, which is terribly convenient for Meta, who cares more about ad revenue than political biases or the lack thereof. Again, INDEPENDENT studies not INDUSTRY studies.
It's not Americans who are divided, it's the politicians and propagandists who control the debate and public life.
Furthermore, it doesn't take "social media algorithms" to be thoroughly disgusted by the journalist class, it just takes not being blind. I'm looking at you, Elizabeth.
I get different results on DuckDuckGo if it's a political or social issue, way different. Now maybe DuckDuckGo is doing the interference - but my point is the same: If I can't depend on honest search results then someone is trying to force lies on me. Go try "climate change is debunked" and report back to me.
Studies conducted by the very people that write to algorithms conclude the algorithms are not the problem. Can you see the conflict here?
But "maybe' is enough to disallow them.
Why do you play with "maybe this will be an evil ugly thing, but maybe not?" You just don't do it.
And all those studies are certified not affected by algorithms, right. Why not use the same certification process? Why? Because there is no such thing. So toss that argument in the corner.
nice article
This article provides a refreshing and nuanced perspective on the role of social media algorithms in driving political polarization and toxicity online. It's heartening to learn that a series of studies indicates that algorithms might not be the primary culprit as often assumed. This offers a more balanced view of the complex dynamics at play on social media platforms. https://rentacarkhi.pk/
IT'S A TRAP! They get people to download an app that turns half into mystical girl-bullying looter Trumpanzee prohibitionists and the other half into Sharknado-shrieking, energy-banning Chicom anarco-communists.