Drag Is Protected Speech, Federal Judge Rules
It should be obvious that drag performances are protected by the First Amendment, but that hasn't kept government officials from trying to ban them.

Last month, a Utah town tried to block a local group from hosting a drag show in a public park. Last week, A federal judge ruled that the town's actions violated the First Amendment, arguing that in denying the group a permit, town officials have prohibited "plaintiffs from expressing protected speech on traditional public forums," causing "irreparable harm."
In March, Southern Utah Drag Stars, a Utah-based drag group, filed an application for a permit to host a drag show in a public park in St. George, Utah. According to legal documents, while the group was given verbal permission to begin advertising for its event, it was nonetheless denied a permit following a spate of complaints from residents who objected to the group's "family-friendly" drag performance.
This denial was discriminatory, according to Judge David Nuffer, the federal judge who granted a preliminary injunction against the town. City officials "denied the Permit based on never-previously-enforced ordinances that prohibit special event advertising until a final event permit is issued…. The City also enacted a moratorium barring all new special event permit applications for six months." All this to stop the drag show from going forward.
Nuffer ruled that these actions violated Drag Stars' First Amendment rights. "Public spaces are public spaces. Public spaces are not private spaces. Public spaces are not majority spaces. The First Amendment of the United States Constitution ensures that all citizens, popular or not, majority or minority, conventional or unconventional, have access to public spaces for public expression."
Nuffer also wrote that, contrary to the city's insistence, drag shows are clearly protected speech. "There is no question that governments have a legitimate interest in protecting children from genuine obscenity. But the City has not provided a shred of evidence that would implicate that legitimate interest. Moreover, that legitimate interest 'does not include a free-floating power to restrict the ideas to which children may be exposed. Speech that is neither obscene as to youths nor subject to some other legitimate proscription cannot be suppressed solely to protect the young from ideas or images that a legislative body thinks unsuitable for them.'"
Attempts at banning drag shows have become increasingly popular across the country, often with public officials citing the apparent "obscenity" of the performances, especially those that allow children to attend. However, this latest injunction shows yet again that drag performances are protected speech and that local governments, public colleges, and other state actors have no legal basis for attempting to restrict them.
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The judge drones on and on and on for 60 pages vs simply quoting the one (speech and assembly) sentence from the 1st Amendment, finding no issues of e.g. obscenity, and then issuing the injunction saving 59 pages in the process.
Judges don't generally write their own opinions. That's usually done by clerks fresh out of law school who are still in impress-the-professor mode.
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They may not write them (though some do) but they sign them, and any judge who doesn't edit a draft opinion to fit his ideas and style is responsible for the result. I agree the the OP -- pages and pages of needless blather.
A good point, and one I didn't realize. At what point does that stop? This was simply a District Court judge (which oddly is not specifically mentioned in the article). This will presumably be appealed. Do Circuit Court judges write their own opinions? Surely the Justices of the Supreme Court do, don't they? If not, then a lot of the discussion about them has been misplaced.
Surely the Justices of the Supreme Court do, don’t they?
Nope. Scalia did, and he was unusual in that regard.
It would be unusual for a higher court to hand down a decision that doesn’t recap the history of the case, discuss legal precedents, etc.
The “droning” is normal. And thank god we still have one branch of government, the judicial, which requires erudition. Legislatures and executive branches these days are dominated by dumbshittery.
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself."
--Mark Twain
Some things never change.
Reminder. You have said Trump incited J6 and even non violent protestors deserved up to 20 years for protesting and speech.
Continue.
January 6th was not ‘protesting and speech’.
January 6th was an attempt to steal a presidential election through *intimidation* of the Vice President and Members-of-Congress…
Mere presence as part of the mob, was contributing to that implicit threat (that if Republicans did not tamper with the election-results – which they had no constitutional authority to do – they would be attacked by said mob).
By contributing to the size of said mob, a person enhanced the threat it posed to the government & thus participated in making said threat....
Most governors, presidents, and legislators are lawyers themselves. So how are they dumber than the judiciary branch?
I’m not sure that is true anymore. Didn’t MTG own a bar, and AOC was a waitress and bartender, Trump was a TV game show host, etc.
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Wait. I was wrong. Only 36.6% of the house and 53% of the Senate have law degrees. But law degrees are still more common in Congress than in the rest of the country.
Because 'obscenity' is no longer an excuse to violate people's free-expression rights, save for *extremely* explicit and unique cases (child porn)...
Judge got it right. The states have no authority to regulate the availability of theatrical performances (drag or otherwise) to minors, unless alchohol is being served...
And before you say 'but what about R-rated movies'... That is a voluntary action by private businesses (the MPAA and it's members), not a matter of state or local law.
Exposing children to public sex is child porn. This is not theater.
What is their definition of obscenity? Is sex a public thing or a private thing?
You / They / We can’t have it both ways.
Consenting adults in private does not include children in public.
sex =/= drag.
https://twitter.com/iamlisalogan/status/1671867724669100032?t=K2gpASZQmTFyxNnz2ruk0g&s=19
LGBTQI+ student panel hosted by the Department of Education yesterday.
Not using preferred pronouns,
"dead-naming,” not affirming gender identity, etc. will be treated as harassment & civil rights violations in public ed schools under Title IX by the Federal Government.
[Link]
No potential 1st Amendment violations there. It will be fine.
It’s only a 1A violation of cisheteronormative bigots do it.
Hey, if the Constitution does not justify selective enforcement of desired ideologies, why both with it?
University speech codes get struck down as unconstitutional all the time. That could easily happen here. So don't change the subject.
The matter of anti-discrimination law vs the 1st-Ammendment has already been litigated (over racial issues).
People attempting to use 'free speech' or 'free exercise of religion' as excuses to practice racial discrimination sued... And lost....
Given Bostock, the federal government is going to treat orientation/identity discrimination as identical to racial.
Also, according to current precedent, the 1st Amendment has diminished force inside K-12 schools.
Not sure how the government has the authority to demand I play along with somebody's delusion.
I need to go take another degree. Not that I need another degree. I just want a valid pretext to sue these asshole universities for fun and profit.
Why did the Drag Show organizers ask for a permit?
Go on. Were you about to make some brilliant legal argument about permits being unconstitutional or something?
I think he was asking a question.
Mike doesn't like people questioning things. Particularly narratives.
Not really.
If Diane/Paul were just “asking a question” why did she/he take a position and then challenge me to make a counter argument? What would I be making a counter argument against if she/he were simply asking a question?
https://reason.com/2023/06/22/drag-is-protected-speech-federal-judge-rules/?comments=true#comment-10122308
Isn’t Diane/Paul a “they”?
If it's a free speech issue, why would they bother with the permit?
Go on, explain to us how the first amendment makes references to "as long as the people have acquired the appropriate permits".
You’re the one proposing the constitutional right to bypass a quite normal way of going about holding an event in a public park.
Burden is on you. Go ahead…
Congress shall make no law is pretty explicit.
The idea you need a permission slip from the government to exercise your 1A rights is patently absurd.
Having said that, if we’re going to accept that you need permission to peaceably assemble on the public’s land, the government telling someone “no” doesn’t really violate civil rights.
https://twitter.com/seanmdav/status/1671936215950524422?t=j1HoiSJ_rdHBdOtpeUiMrw&s=19
The FBI verified that Hunter Biden's laptop was authentic in December 2019, nearly a year before the CIA and FBI told social media companies to censor coverage of it, claiming it was a Russian hoax. Federal investigators reviewed the laptop and believed it contained evidence of tax crimes.
[Link]
Here's the thing, though: I can take your laptop, and then download all sorts of things, modify the contents, etc. The fact that it can be proven that it's authentically your laptop doesn't prove that all its contents are authentically yours as well. Much or all of what's on there might be authentic, but it seems that the people pointing to the laptop of evidence of some of the most egregious claims are never discussing the pedigree of the data, just the physical object of the laptop.
The emails on the laptop from/to Hunter were authentic. References to the big guy were confirmed to Joe Biden.
You seem to be agreeing with the letter from the dirty 51. That seems to me to be evidence of you condoning the treasonous actions of our demented president.
That laptop belonged to Hunter. The evidence from that laptop was authentic.
And major alterations additions, etc. are detectable.
Clearly this judge is a radical woke leftist who wants to indoctrinate kids and turn them gay while personally cutting off their genitals.
Poor Lying Jeffy is broken like sarc now.
Poor Lying Jeffy is broken
likesarcnow.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nuffer
Educated at Brigham Young’s law school and a former professor there: BYU, a hotbed of transgender ideology and progressivism if there ever was one.
But he was appointed by.... BARACK OBAMA, who as we all know is a Kenyan Marxist Muslim Socialist, so yeah he probably does cut off kids' genitals in his spare time.
But I thought we couldn’t have free speech until we all agree on First Principles, [as drawn up by Anthony Fauci]? Do you now reverse those previous claims of yours?
Yes, I totally believe that Barack Obama is totally a socialist Kenyan Muslim Marxist and David Nuffer cuts off kids’ genitals in his basement in his spare time. That was not sarcasm at all, that was my serious argument.
Obama was president while his VP was demanding bribes from America's adversaries.
Where does the buck stop?
His job is to apply precedents without protest. That’s what a “responsible conservative” does.
Public parks are supposed to be free-speech forums. They’re not classrooms and speakers have traditionally been allowed to say stuff unsuitable for children. Like praising [Godwin edit].
And the town here tried to play games with the permit process, reducing possible judicial sympathy.
It’s possible now that they might pass a specific ordinance against obscene performances, and include “racy” drag shows in the definition. Then if the judge says a drag performance is OK, we will have something to criticize.
Locals should just get together and mostly peacefully beat the shit out of them
It’s legal and encouraged as long as it’s ‘mostly peaceful’. So just make sure that the not peaceful part is capped at 49.99999%.
"indoctrinate kids and turn them gay while personally cutting off their genitals."
Professional jealously.
Gee, that sounds like some wild conspiracy theory. So, we can expect it will be officially recognized as true in about 12 months.
That does seem to be how things currently work.
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So the question will be: Is this show going to be "family friendly" by any reasonable person's definition of family friendly? There is the rub. These kind of performances are always discussed as if there were low adult content. Even the ones that included grade school kids stuffing dollar bills into garters. There are limitations on what can be done in an open venue.
Is this a limit that should be pushed, and that makes the people pushing it look good or even sane?
It’s not like we have evidence from every Pride Parade of public lewd and lascivious conduct or every Drag Show for Kids posted online of simulated lewd contact with the minors
You may have a good case for “sometimes” or even “often” (which would require some actual research beyond reading culture-war dispatches from the left or right), but “always”?
Liarson Maneuver. Mike wants us to argue over the difference between Often and Always- even when he admits that Often or Sometimes would be sufficient an adverb to carry the argument.
Why does Laursen do this? Because he is a troll. He would rather nitpick and argue tangents than actually discuss the point that the poster was making.
pettifog
verb
pet·ti·fog ˈpetēˌfäg, -etē-, -fȯg
pettifogged; pettifogged; pettifogging; pettifogs
intransitive verb
1: to engage in legal chicanery
2: to quibble over insignificant details
Oh man, thanks for that! It's so appropriate here, and such an underused word.
The attorney in the Wizard of ID cartoons was called Larsen E. Pettifogger.
LOL
What is the libertarian rationale for a government authority accepting or rejecting a permit for an event in a public space based on whether or not it is 'family friendly'? Shouldn't the decision on whether or not an event is acceptable for kids be made by the parents, and not by the government?
What is the libertarian rationale for accepting permits as a pretext for first amendment activity in a public park?
The only real rationale that I can see is for purely technical reasons - to avoid double-booking and to make sure the space is appropriate for the event in question. Also for any fees associated with cleanup and maintenance of the space associated with the event. Not for judging the event based on content.
I could just as easily see such a task devolved to some type of scheduling app as well. That would be fine with me.
Right, so what I'm wondering is, if the permit is really about... technical stuff, like "building a stage, putting out seating, running an amplifier system" I'm wondering what would have happened had the Drag show kicked off anyway, without "the stage, the seating and the amplifier systems"?
Well, it would likely be illegal.
And if they had gone ahead with the event anyway, then you would have LibsOfTikTok and Brendan O'Neill running stories about those law-breaking drag queen criminals as one more reason why they should be kept away from kids.
"Shouldn’t the decision on whether or not an event is acceptable for kids be made by the parents, and not by the government?"
In the case of a private venue, I would tend to agree with you.
This is a public venue, and therefore we are not talking about the state's power for policing speech, we are talking about the state's responsibility as a landlord renting a facility in trust for its voting public. The First Amendment is not absolute in the latter case, and as we have noted with schools, the entire controversy would be eliminated if we just privatized all these public spaces (and schools). Since we are not doing that, there are tests that the speaker can fail (such as obscenity) that would disqualify them from using the public space. As the judge noted in his opinion, the government has not adequately shown that the speaker would fail those tests, and therefore they cannot be denied. Nevertheless, the "it's between parents and the drag queens" point is incorrect.
I am talking about the libertarian rationale, not the rationale based on the status quo. I am capable of reading the opinion too.
Even under a libertarian order, there would still be some public spaces. From a libertarian point of view, why should there be any content restrictions on who gets to use that public space?
Assumes fact not in evidence.
Here, try something. Define "public space", it usually involves government owning said "public space". Now think why a libertarian government should own anything, let alone roads, sidewalks, plazas, parks, beaches, or other "public spaces".
Well, if *everything* is privately owned, then you have anarchism, not libertarianism.
Only by your definition.
Government doesn’t need to own buildings. They can lease them, like most businesses.
If you think government needs to own roads, sidewalks, plazas, and parks, you are not a libertarian.
If the government does not own its own property, then the government is not the supreme authority in the area, and is instead subject to the real supreme authority, the property owner for the land.
How is that a problem?
Are you a libertarian or a statist?
Asked and answered.
I am a libertarian who believes in having a minimal state.
Are you?
If so, then I guess that makes both of us "statists" by your standard, no?
No you’re not Jeffy. You’re a statist who pretends to be a libertarian. The only ‘freedoms’ you push involve breaking down the status quo to advance more statists. This is why you homogeneously boost and support the democrat party, and a,ways denigrat Republican activities.
You should be embarrassed.
Why should chemjeff be embarrassed?
Because words matter. A lack of restriction on public space is more accurately described as mandated speech. If you can't restrict anything, that means you have enabled everything. You're not going to convince anyone that unironic pedophiles, communists, nazis, and all the other beyond the pale ideologies should receive public resources. I'm well aware of the dangers of pejoratives, but you need to realize that the function and discriminatory right that once belonged to private spaces has been co-opted by public spaces. Until we fully privatize and private discrimination becomes legal again, you're going to have public restrictions.
A lack of restriction on speech is "mandated speech"? That's the most Orwellian thing I've heard all century. And it's been a hell of a century.
Given their violating other standards isn't a guarantee and no history to say otherwise, give them the space but have security arrest them should they violate those other standards. It's not like lewd behavior or assault in public are not crimes.
This. Give them the rope to hang themselves with.
The proposed venue is a public park, which suggests an open space outdoors. There are many things you cannot do in a public park whether you have a permit or not.
See above
Politeness and courtesy, the basic social lubricants.
From a libertarian perspective, who should decide what is appropriately "polite" and "courteous" for a public space? The government?
Normal people, not you fucking perverts
Lol. The very argument you use to define WPATH and AMA as the experts on medical treatments. Appeals to nom elected authorities.
Amazing how you switch your stances and beliefs to however best covers for leftist beliefs.
But he’s totes not a leftist!
If the government does not own its own property, then the government is not the supreme authority in the area, and is instead subject to the real supreme authority, the property owner for the land.
What would you know about the libertarian perspective?
Jeffy’s lubrication concerns require the children be part of it.
We know your libertarian stance is the government could shoot them for trespass on public property. Need the cite again?
" Shouldn’t the decision on whether or not an event is acceptable for kids be made by the parents, and not by the government?"
Parents can't decide it is OK for children to watch an "R" rated movie, let alone an "X" rated one, in a theater showing such.
There are limits to what parents can allow their children to observe. Exceeding those would be legally considered abusive.
These "drag" shows are on a par with pornography; allowed by the SCOTUS, under the 1A (though it shouldn't, the 1A was for political speech), but it is still allowed to be restricted to adults, only, which is what the laws being passed are doing.
This judge is an idiot.
You do know, don’t you, that film ratings are just a voluntary system established by the film industry. It’s not a legal thing.
Drag shows are not "pornography." That's just silly.
Is this a limit that should be pushed, and that makes the people pushing it look good or even sane?
I see this type of criticism a lot from your team. And I always ask, why is it their job to appease you?
Then social progressives should not be fretting about a loss of support for the LGBT movement over the past year, if they do not have to keep it clean to some extent.
What you are implying, is that the support for LGBT rights is conditional and dependent on appeasing the non-LGBT majority. That they don't really have "rights" as the term is properly understood, they have conditional permission to act how they want, but they should know that they are on a leash that the majority holds that can be yanked back if they stray too far out of line.
Is that what you meant to say?
If this is the hill they want to die on defending their lunatic fringe, then so be it, the polling does not matter.
They have the same rights and the same restrictions on behavior as everyone else. Presumably a group of non-lgbt drag performers would face the same objections.
In this case, I think the decision is correct.
They have rights. Not special privileges, you disingenuous shitsack.
So the question will be: Is this show going to be “family friendly” by any reasonable person’s definition of family friendly?
The use of scare?… actual?… quotes made me guffaw. We aren’t even sure what it means, or if it’s in any way recognizable as speech, but we’re damn sure it’s protected!
Come one! Come all! To the Jim Jones family-friendly mass homicide! Bring your friends! Bring your neighbors! Bring somebody else’s kid that Harvey Milk helped you kidnap! Fun for the whole family! Drinks will be served!
Fucking clown world.
Exactly
I don't know. But the government failed to provide any evidence of obscenity. So either the government's attorneys fucked up, or its family friendly as far as the judge is concerned.
In the 1970’s there was a push for public nudity. It didn’t make it. There’s nothing wrong with nudity. It’s just not appropriate public behavior. If everything is public, then nothing is private.
I don't know. But the real question is: Are there any shows that would have not been obscene, but for the inclusion of drag? Because we are not assessing a ban on obscene public performances. We are assessing a ban on drag performances in public.
It is a fairly easy call given the Skokie case.
The problem is not guys dressing like women. The problem is parading them before kindergartners, having kids stuff their shorts with dollar bills.
Drag shows almost by definition are sexual in nature, because that is what the drag queens want, it is what they glorify in. More power to them -- as adults.
A dude who cross-dresses so well that no one knows it is a dude is not the problem. A couple of dudes on the run cross-dressing in Some Like It Hot is not the problem.
Drag shows which are too risque for parades or are the problem.
Here's a nice simple rule: if you wouldn't allow a strip show, don't allow the drag show.
OK, but what if it is a drag show with not salacious and has no kids stuffing dollar bills anywhere? Should those be preemptively banned on the assumption that they will have those qualities?
And what does “almost by definition” mean? Are you committing to the categorical accusations against drag shows or not?
Have you ever seen drag queens? Their whole persona is wrapped up in their fake sexuality.
This is not Sherlock Holmes in disguise. This is men looking as outrageously sexual as possible. It is as central to their shows as to strip shows.
What planet do you live on?
They typically dress up as absurd caricatures of women. With outrageous hair and outrageous costumes. They typically aren't dressing up as sluts.
Here are some drag queens for you:
https://www.ocregister.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/0427_nws_csf_l-drag3.jpg?w=637
I would not call them "slutty".
"They typically dress up as absurd caricatures of women."
So you're calling them 'sexist' then.
And public mockery of woman should be acceptable and endorsed by the state, right?
Again: "not banning" is not the same as "endorsement" or "acceptable"
Providing taxpayer funded resources and spaces most certainly is endorsement and acceptance.
Also, I'll see your cherrypicked drag queens and raise you these ones...
And these ones.
most of those aren't even drag queens.
Oh, how clever. Only the ones YOU approve of are drag queens. The others are ... slut queens?
Here's a clue: which of those pictures were taken outside with kids?
gee I don't know, the guy wearing purple pajamas with the giant dick, not a drag queen because he's not even pretending to dress up as a woman? that's not a hard one.
ML as usual is trying to conflate real drag queens with obnoxious and obscene people from some Pride parade. He is deliberately doing what others have claimed that Team Red doesn't want to do: use the anti-trans backlash as a vehicle to undermine gay rights generally. Why try to conflate the two otherwise?
I was using this definition:
"They typically dress up as absurd caricatures of women. With outrageous hair and outrageous costumes."
Take it up with him.
the guy with the giant penis is clearly not dressing up as a caricature of a woman. try again. you are, as I said, deliberately trying to conflate drag queens with offensive and obnoxious public displays. because you want to propagate the narrative that drag queens are no different than the guy in the purple pajamas with the giant dick. that's the end goal here, label them ALL as perverts who should be kept away from children. it is guilt by association and it is shameful.
Are you denying that some women have giant penises, Jeff? That's not very woke.
I mean look at the picture. The... thing... is wearing eyeshadow and mascara and it's penis is purple sequined and carried by small girls. Are eyeshadow, mascara and sequins 'butch'?
So are you OK with a minstrel show then, with people (like Justin Trudeau) prancing around in blackface?
Do you understand the difference between "not banning" an event, and "being okay" with an event?
I am "not okay" with Justin Trudeau or anyone running around in blackface, but I also don't think Justin Trudeau or anyone should be thrown in jail over it.
Wow. Were they going to put the drag queens in jail?
Also, I don't recall InsaneTrollLogic mentioning jail.
Good point
And I wonder about what is going on, sexual attraction-wise, in the minds of conservatives who keep describing all drag queens as highly sexual.
“Have you ever seen drag queens? Their whole persona is wrapped up in their fake sexuality.”
Of course. I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area for thirty years. First drag queen I saw was the one with the enormous San Francisco panorama hat at the end of the long-running cabaret show, “Beach Blanket Babylon”. Not even the slightest bit sexual. Just a giant prop gag done for a laugh.
Have you any personal experiences like that?
The Beach Blanket Babylon performer who ended the show wearing a gigantic hat containing the panorama of San Francisco's skyline was a woman named Val Diamond. Although a married woman who now lives in the suburbs, I don't think she would object much to being misidentified as a drag queen.
That was a real woman?!
Yes. She is. Look her up. She was in that show for years.
Mike, you'd confuse Victor and Victoria.
Wonderful. Let’s just keep the kids out of it and everything is cool.
OK, but what if it is a drag show with not salacious and has no kids stuffing dollar bills anywhere?
We call this "Halloween".
Or Fantasy Fest in Key West.
OK, and we’re not for banning Halloween, are we?
Is it a pandemic/election year again?
So Halloween would have been illegal in Utah if the judge had upheld this law.
What should happen is for people to have the good sense to see that shit like this is stupid and most people don't like it and the decency not to rub it in everyone's face.
Drag performance is sexual. That's always been the point, that's why people like it.
"A couple of dudes on the run cross-dressing in Some Like It Hot is not the problem."
https://youtu.be/KqUaQ7s4BG0?t=64
Jeffy defends the rights of perverts to sexualize small children to the death.
Progs have a First Amendment right to have 8 year old rub their crotches. Got it.
Nobody really cared what adults did when they left the kids out of it.
Yes, that's another thing. I have never heard of any stripper wanting to perform in front of kids. I have never heard anyone even mentioning that, pro or con. It is just not a thing.
But from the LGBTQWERTY outrage, you get the impression that what upsets them the most is that they are not allowed to perform for kids.
They are perverts. I say throw them in the men's jail and be done with them.
I have never heard of any stripper wanting to perform in front of kids.
Well, just wait a year or so and we'll be hearing about how it's literally genocide to prevent transrhinocerous from stripping in front of 3rd graders.
"Progs have a First Amendment right to have 8 year old rub their crotches. Got it." Drag doesn't mean getting other people to rub your crotches. The person who the kid rubbed their crotch in the mermaid costume wasn't a drag queen at all. She was a regular cis woman.
Here's what you can apparently expect if you invite Planned Parenthood into a 9th-grade classroom
https://twitchy.com/sarahd/2023/06/22/saskatchewan-sex-cards-n2384748
JUST WOW --> IRS whistleblower transcripts look bad for Hunter, even WORSE for Joe Biden (watch)
https://twitchy.com/samj/2023/06/22/irs-whistleblower-transcripts-n2384752
Nothing to see here. Nope. Just text messages from Hunter Biden demanding money from China while he was sitting next to HIS DAD. Oh, and it looks like he was threatening them with his dad as well.
Hrm.
Nope.
Nothing.
Trump Trump Trump. That's how this works, right?
This and Obamagate sure make Watergate look quaint.
OK, sometimes I'm slow, but it just struck me (as funny) how both poorly designed and 50-yr.-old-white-guy-averse naming your company OceanGate is.
So considering yesterday's interview, I wonder how Brendan O'Neill would come down on this issue - drag show performances in public places.
Here is one clue: he would probably be opposed to it. He was opposed to drag queen story hour in public schools in the UK after all.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/06/22/a-school-is-no-place-for-a-drag-queen/
And this is one of my many problems with the union of social conservatism and libertarianism. In instance after instance, when the two come into conflict, the social conservatism inevitably wins out. I suspect that it is because their libertarian views come from a place of intellect and reason, but their social conservative views come from a much deeper place of morality and values and (possibly) faith and religion. So when the two come into conflict, of course the more deeply-held values of morality and faith are going to win out over the more cerebral, intellectual values of liberty, and then the challenge is to find the libertarian-sounding rationalization for why that is an acceptable tradeoff to make.
You don’t need faith or religion to know that hurting children is wrong.
You just need to be a normal human being.
Who decides what is "hurting children"?
The libertarian answer is simple: that which violates the NAP.
But that is not the social conservative answer: it is much more restrictive. Taking kids to drag queen story hour is "hurting children". Giving kids a sip of wine at dinner is "hurting children". Letting them see an R-rated movie is "hurting children". Which they would typically see as permissible use of state power to prohibit.
And that's the problem here. The social conservative-libertarians here will take something like drag queen story hour, which does not hurt children by a libertarian standard because it does not violate the NAP, and instead of relying on their libertarian reasoning and concluding "well, even though my socially conservative values find drag queens to be morally wrong, I don't think the state should prohibit it", instead, they will try to shoe-horn their socially conservative values into NAP violations. "The drag queens are 'harming children' by 'indoctrinating' them or 'spoiling their innocence' or something else, therefore violation of the NAP, therefore, all good libertarians must oppose it and I win!"
That is how it always inevitably turns out.
Who decides what is “hurting children”?
Fucking children and chopping off their genitalia is “hurting children”, Jeff.
No surprises that this needs to be explained to you though.
We've been through this many times.
It's not about "chopping off genitalia". It is about your refusal to believe that gender affirming therapy is a valid medical procedure. Because you and me and most everyone else would be completely fine with *not banning* medical procedures on children, with proper consent, that resulted in their disfigurement, if it was according to a proper standard of care to treat a diagnosed disease.
You just don't think these kids are actually sick. That is your opinion, fine. But your opinion is not the same as fact, and your opinion should not be law.
Dude, “gender affirming therapy” is not a valid medical procedure. You are chemically neutering these kids with puberty blockers (which are irreversible) and then cutting off bits and pieces of them to try to remake them as something they are not, never have been, and never will be.
That's an accurate description of child mutilation.
Dude, “gender affirming therapy” is not a valid medical procedure.
See, this is the difference between you and me. You have the arrogance to readily impose moral views onto everyone, and I just don’t.
Yes there must be SOME moral framework, and I go with as minimal of a moral framework as I can find: the NAP. Beyond that, I am not so arrogant to be imposing my moral values onto everyone USING STATE COERCION to do so.
I just don’t understand where this arrogance comes from, that you think you know what is best for all of the millions of children out there. I cannot possibly know what is best for all of them. How can you confidently state that you do?
I think there are some kids out there – probably not very many, but probably a few – who could benefit from such a therapy. I think it should be used cautiously and only after much deliberation and following a strict standard of care, and I would support government regulations to impose those restrictions. But banning it entirely just goes too far. That would be imposing my will onto everyone. I can’t do that because I cannot peer into the souls of everyone on the planet and know what is best for them. And you can’t either.
Did you oppose African female genital mutilation when opposition was the proper talking point for just about everybody?
Do you oppose child genital mutilation now?
Was African female genital mutilation a valid medical treatment to treat a diagnosed disease state? No it wasn't. So it's not a comparable situation.
If some child wanted gender reassignment surgery, without any diagnosis of a disease, even with parental consent, I would be opposed to that.
The diseased state is a mental illness that thinking your biological reality is wrong. Not the biological reality itself.
You're just so incredibly evil.
Who are you to choose validity? What about gay conversion therapy? What about cutting off limbs for trans ableism.
This is your problem jeff. You think your stance is the moral one. There is no health benefit in any measure for GAC. There are health issues seen by the estimated 1.5M lifetime medical costs for GAC recipients. Fuck off pedophile.
The diseased state is a mental illness
So yes, it is a disease state.
So you agree that the kids are sick, you just don't approve of the treatment so you want to use state force to ban it. That is what this boils down to entirely.
"you just don’t approve of the treatment so you want to use state force to ban it."
Chopping off gay kids balls and poisoning them with toxins to suppress development isn't treating anything you demonic fuck. It's actually the opposite. Just like cigarettes aren't treatment for lung cancer.
"you want to use state force to ban it."
State force, angry dad with a shotgun, fire from heaven, violent mob... I'm open to all sorts of solutions.
Chopping off gay kids balls and poisoning them with toxins to suppress development isn’t treating anything
Because you know what's best for every child everywhere. Got it.
How do you catch the Gender Identity Disease? Other than Social Contagion
"See, this is the difference between you and me. You have the arrogance to readily impose moral views onto everyone, and I just don’t."
Just like I said, no surprises that 'fucking children and chopping off their dicks is wrong', needs to be explained to you.
So, ML, why don't you explain to us what moral views you wish the government to impose upon everyone, that go beyond the NAP, and why you think libertarians should support your perspective on the matter.
I don’t think you will answer this question directly or honesty, because in these discussions all you seem to do is throw out epithets and insults and prattle around on your supposed moral high horse bravely declaring that you are ‘against child mutilation’. Well bravo to you. That’s like saying you are ‘against hunger’. Is there anyone who is really ‘pro-hunger’?
And yet the reality of the world is more complicated. While we are all ‘against hunger’, are we in favor of, say, a wealth redistribution scheme by the government purportedly with the goal to feed the hungry? Most of us here would answer no, that it’s not a proper job of the state, that private charity can do a better job, etc., the standard libertarian arguments against the welfare state. But that doesn’t stop the pro-welfare crowd from crowing on THEIR moral high horses about how we libertarians are cruel heartless assholes who want poor people to starve, does it?
They’re doing the same thing that you are doing in these discussions. They take the cheap and easy position that requires no thought and no intellect and only makes them feel good about themselves, how they can bravely tell their friends that they are ‘against hunger’. But in doing so they support a scheme that deprives people of their liberty and, often, makes people WORSE off in the end.
So it is SO BRAVE to declare you are ‘against child mutilation’, but in wanting the state to ban gender affirming care, you are supporting a scheme that reduces liberty and makes the children who actually NEED that care worse off in the end. That never enters into your little brain because, just like the welfare crusaders above, you really don’t give a shit about the victims. The welfare crowd doesn’t REALLY care about the poor starving people, they just want to look virtuous. That is you. You don’t REALLY give a shit about suicidal kids and their parents who face difficult times. All you want to do is appear BRAVE and VIRTUOUS in being ‘against child mutilation’. Those kids just need to snap out of it or something. Who cares.
You're so utterly fucking evil, Jeff. You think like a demon.
Gender-Affirming Care is YOUR euphemism for castration, mastectomies, sterilization and toxic chemical soups that arrest development, but there's zero affirmation of their biological gender and zero care in that malign lie. It's in fact the exact fucking opposite of the each and every word used.
You know this, and the deception is your intention because you're an anti-human monster.
Only a malevolent ogre would say that gouging a hole in their crotch and making a fake vagina out of a bisected penis and bits of colon, that will never heal and necessitate a lifetime of antibiotics, followed by a toxic drug regime that damages cardiovascular health, bone density, and what's left of any reproductive functions, was care.
Wow, I'm actually impressed. You responded exactly as I expected you to. 100% performative outrage, 0% substance. We get it, you are outrageously outraged by 'child mutilation'. You are 100% against child mutilation! Just like all of us are 100% against hunger, and poverty, and disease, and famine! Congratulations! The virtue has been thoroughly signaled! Well done!
You’re literally imposing YOUR moral views by insisting that people who think genital mutilation, top surgery, and puberty blockers (all of which do irreversible harm) is immoral are bigots/hateful/etc.
I'm not imposing any judgment of bigotry BY STATE FORCE. Yes I do think a lot of the anti-trans crowd are frankly bigots. But I do not want bigots thrown in jail by the state simply for being bigots. See the difference now?
You should have the absolute right to denounce whatever you believe is immoral by whatever rationale you wish.
Not that alphabet needs me to defend him, but he didn’t mention government or force, only that it’s not “affirming care”.
It’s an objective declarative statement. You obviously disagree with it, but that doesn’t make his statement a moral imposition.
(FWIW, adults should be free to alter their bodies however they see fit, but I don’t see how you can objectively affirm any kind of body dysmorphia by denying reality. It’s not like the medical profession makes a habit of doing gastric bypass on anorexics or amputations for people who think they shouldn’t have certain limbs.)
State force, local force, vigilante justice or wild animal attacks are all acceptable if it will stop you guys from maiming kids.
Okay, so he doesn't think it's affirming care. That's fine. I still don't think he should be punished by the state for his belief.
Trans kids can choose to mutilate themselves as adults if they please. They cannot choose to restore their reproductive capabilities. Your obsession with having ANYONE involved with that decision shows you're either permanently fucked in the head or just trolling.
Every long term study that has proper controls shows either no benefit for mental health or a worsening one. This is why Europe is pulling back on it sea lion.
They are sick. Generally with various mental illnesses. The problem is that there isn't any good evidence that the currently popular treatments are effective. The "always affirm" standard is insane. The last thing you should do for a troubled teenager is to give them everything they want without question. A lot of other countries have been through this earlier than the US and have realized that the aggressive, affirming treatments were doing great harm to a lot of people. It's insane that the US is still continuing down that path.
Are you trying out some new slogans for your next NAMBLA a marketing campaign? Are you focus testing it on us?
So would you be opposed to stripper story hour in a public school?
If it serves a valid educational outcome, and if it is optional and parents have the option to choose not to send their kids to it - sure, why not?
At the end of the day, I ask myself, who am I to be deciding *for everyone* what is or is not a valid educational experience? I feel confident deciding for myself and my family, but I cannot speak for everyone.
Whether or not it would be a wise use of scarce public funds is another matter entirely.
"If it serves a valid educational outcome"
Explain how stripper story hour could possibly serve a valid educational outcome.
That would be up to the school district to decide.
So you do support community standards after all. Then you'll agree that the judge was wrong here.
This wasn't an educational event.
That's irrelevant. You've said in the past that you do not recognize collective rights. Now here you are defending them.
What is the collective right that I am supposedly defending?
The right of school districts (neither of which is individual in nature) to police themselves in their money.
Then, as it didn't serve "a valid educational outcome", it should not be put on by the school, do you agree?
That is not up to you or me to decide.
Oh, but as taxpayers, it most certainly is for us to decide.
No, your tax bill is not a magic wand that permits you to impose your preferences onto everyone.
Your taxes only means that you get one voice among many. Not that you get to veto the choices that you don't like.
And if a majority decide it should not go on, Jeffy? If a majority of their representatives decide it shouldn't go on, Jeffy?
I don't think educational standards or educational curriculum should be individually put up to a majoritarian yes/no vote. That just leads to "education by mob rule", not a genuine education.
So I would not put the specific item of "stripper story hour" up to a vote of the people, for the same reason I would not put the specific curricular item of "trigonometry" up to a vote of the people.
I think individual leaders in the school district should make decisions on what they think is best for the curricula in the schools which they serve. When the school board members stand for election they can defend their decisions as they see fit.
Jeff. You literally raged because a school board in Florida pulled books. You again show inconsistent principles and just mold your bullshit arguments to get the results you choose. Entirely dishonest.
“Your taxes only means that you get one voice among many. Not that you get to veto the choices that you don’t like.”
Is contradicted by this
“I think individual leaders in the school district should make decisions on what they think is best for the curricula…”
“That just leads to “education by mob rule”, not a genuine education.”
If public school is to exist (you’ve said in the past that it shouldn’t so we’re in agreement there), I think it would behoove the stalwart bureaucratic heroes of the school districts to focus more attention on Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic then any kind of gimmicky story hours or any of the other host of ridiculous crap they do instead of actually teaching. Just sayin
I disagree - if there is going to be public education, then it should be a real education, and not just "the basics".
In other words, you can’t.
I would have a hard time coming up with one. But again it is not my call to make. If I had to make a choice, I would say it is not a wise use of scarce educational funds.
No, that is up to parents to decide.
Fuck off, collectivist pedo.
For a *public* school? No it really isn't. It is up to the school board and the school district leaders. That is how things *are*.
Individual parents do not have the right to veto the educational choices for ALL students in a PUBLIC school.
Individual parents have the right to decide FOR THEIR OWN CHILDREN what type of education they will receive. Get it?
Those children belong to the parents, not the school district.
Children don't "belong" to anyone. They are not property.
If parents choose to send their kids to public school, they are simultaneously releasing some measure of control over their children's curriculum, and handing it over to the collective. "Because I pay taxes" is not a magic incantation that permits individual parents to veto the decisions for ALL children.
If parents choose to homeschool, or send their kids to private school, then they make different choices about their kids' curriculum.
Government and society gives parents guardianship you retarded fat pedophile.
"That would be up to the school district to decide."
Not the parents, not the community?
Career day demonstration for the cheer squad?
Only if the cheer squad are all of legal age.
Have you noticed how in this thread Jeffy uses the same arguments that NAMBLA and their cohorts try to advance?
I'd support strippers in a public school as long as no children are present and admission is free. OK, I'm a dirty old man.
What if we make the children's attendance mandatory and tell them not to talk to their parents about it?
If any children were present, parental consent or not, I would never attend. Forcing children to attend is worse still. I have no problem with nudity nor would most children, but sexually slanted nudity is something that children are not prepared for.
Jeff and Mike don't understand this point.
You couldn't be more disingenuous, jeffy.
Here is the unanswered question: Why do the libraries insist on calling it "Drag Queen Story Hour"? Why not just call it "Story Hour"?
Here is the honest answer: Because is isn't about exposing kids to a story, it is about exposing kids to a drag queen. If they were to let just anyone who volunteered come in and read, parents could exert control just by signing up for all the slots.
Before you opine wildly on my moral authoritarianism, I think this judge made the correct decision in this case and responded with sensitivity towards both parties:
It does not go unnoticed when you conflate issues, jeffy. Like how you are conflating the freedom of speech issues of a permit for a show put on in a public park that people can ignore or even protest with an event taking place inside a school where attendance in mandatory and protest is not allowed. Your tactics are not original.
So when the two come into conflict, of course the more deeply-held values of morality and faith are going to win out over the more cerebral, intellectual values of liberty
You. Are. Full. Of. Shit. Conservatives honor both the language and the spirit of the Constitution.
Here is the honest answer: Because is isn’t about exposing kids to a story, it is about exposing kids to a drag queen.
Yes, you're right! And neither one is a bad thing! It is only you and your tribe who thinks that there is something inherently perverted or obscene about drag queens. Your tribe wants drag queens back in the closet, to be trotted out only as the punch line of jokes or on Halloween as a costume. And we've moved beyond that now.
And conservatives honor the Constitution that is in their head, not the actual one. Conservatives sure are fine with ignoring the Constitution when it comes to prayer in schools or the War on Drugs/War on Illegal Labor, or any host of other issues.
"War on Illegal Labor"? That's a new one to me. Are you saying that people without proper documentation to be here should be exploited?
His whole screed about the "the Constitution that is in their head" is completely divorced from reality. I just said that I agreed with the judge and here is jeffy trying to gaslight people into believing the opposite.
I appreciate that you and I both agree with the judge here. But you made a blanket statement about conservatives that they "honor both the language and the spirit of the Constitution". That is flatly false, as pointed out to you in a number of examples. For starters, look at the ones who denied this group's permit. I'm pretty sure they were conservatives.
Yes, you’re right! And neither one is a bad thing!
I accept that you are being honest. But you are still wrong. Offending others is part of the kink for the freaks. The non-freaks don't dress up in public because they understand it makes people uncomfortable.
The human brain relies on classification. The very first thing it classifies when you meet a new person is male-female. Nobody has control over this. When the brain gets stuck at the first thing because it detects indications that the person is not what they are presenting as, it generates anxiety. This is a well understood phenomena.
You are rooting against evolution.
The very first thing it classifies when you meet a new person is male-female. Nobody has control over this.
Exactly. And it's not just sight, but also smell, and to a lesser extent, sound. Men and women have distinct smells (even if we as humans deny we can smell pheromones).
It is why so many boys think their sisters are gross. Our senses are evolutionarily tuned to turn us off from close relatives and quickly identify our competition for procreative opportunities.
Ironically, the it is basically the same argument being used to justify giving puberty blockers to kids.
Offending others is part of the kink for the freaks.
There you go. Deriding them as "freaks".
And I accept that they offend you. Okay. You are offended. Now what? Do you think you have a right not to be offended?
And you seem awfully concerned that the drag queens might get a measure of enjoyment out of their reading to kids - even perhaps sexual enjoyment. I doubt that is the case for most of them, but even if it were true - SO WHAT? Who is harmed? Are the kids molested or something? Sure it is a little creepy. But if no one is harmed, so what?
Do you really want to set a standard that drag queens should be *prevented by law* from being around kids because they *might* be sexually aroused by the prospect of being with kids? Isn't that like punishing thoughtcrime here? More like "feelcrime" I suppose.
The human brain relies on classification. The very first thing it classifies when you meet a new person is male-female. Nobody has control over this. When the brain gets stuck at the first thing because it detects indications that the person is not what they are presenting as, it generates anxiety. This is a well understood phenomena.
I don't understand the point of this paragraph. Are you arguing that individuals have some sort of obligation to dress in public according to their biological sex, lest they cause harm to others via anxiety?
"Are you arguing that individuals have some sort of obligation to dress in public according to their biological sex, lest they cause harm to others via anxiety?"
Heck, that would have negated darned near the entire careers of Milton Berle, Flip Wilson, RuPaul, Barry Humphries (Dame Edna), Glenn Milstead (Divine), plus many others.
I always love how jeff brings out this argument then can't explain why GAC is unnecessary if the features produced by biological features doesn't matter.
I know, right? I think this is another one of Chucky's lame attempts at trying to shoe-horn his social conservative beliefs into the NAP, by rationalizing and inventing these harms that are caused by drag queens just existing and being around kids.
Previously it was "drag queens reading books to kids was a violation of the NAP because it robbed kids of their innocence".
Now it is "drag queens in public violate the NAP because they cause anxiety in people who initially judge them to be the 'wrong' sex."
The human brain relies on classification. The very first thing it classifies when you meet a new person is male-female. Nobody has control over this. When the brain gets stuck at the first thing because it detects indications that the person is not what they are presenting as, it generates anxiety. This is a well understood phenomena.
A well understood phenomenon that actually has nothing to do with the human brain or biological sex. Fundamental to all information theory is the ability to distinguish signal from noise. If you can't do that and do it between well and relatively infallibly, all the rest of the house of cards topples down.
I agree that Libertarianism and social conservatism are incompatible. But, I think that social conservatism is at its base rooted in disgust and Libertarianism is I think rooted in anger at proscriptions and obligations. All political persuasions are really just rationalizations for some emotional disposition.
Libertarianism is I think rooted in anger at proscriptions and obligations
That is the basis for a fragile, shallow libertarianism that is really rebellion. A deeper libertarianism is built on grokking that spontaneous order is the only and best way to create a thriving society and economy.
It's always fascinating to see what subjects really trigger certain people and they feel the need to reply to nearly all comment threads.
I feel attacked by this comment.
https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1671942487185952768?t=FuqsZWK9wLQ399WUIkrfCQ&s=19
BREAKING: The DOJ allegedly tipped off Hunter Biden before a search was conducted on his storage unit & stopped an investigation into "a WhatsApp message in which Hunter Biden demands payment from Chinese officials, noting that his father is in the room."
Holy s***!!
"Whistleblowers claim the Biden DOJ is intervening and overstepping when it comes to the investigation of the presidents son."
"Whistleblowers say reoccurring unjustified delays pervaded the investigation. Including a WhatsApp message in which Hunter Biden demands payment from Chinese officials, noting that his father is in the room."
"The whistleblowers revealed IRS investigators were told by US attorney Leslie Wolf that because the evidence would be found in the guest house of former VP Biden, 'there is no way' a search warrant for evidence would ever get approved."
"Investigators had probable cause to search a Northern Virginia storage unit in which Hunter Biden had stored files."
"Attorneys for Biden were made aware prior to any search, providing them valuable time to remove any materials that could be useful evidence."
You are witnessing the biggest cover up in American history.
Whistleblowers claim
Whistleblowers say
The whistleblowers revealed
Okay, so we're back to uncritically believing anonymous sources again. Got it.
I’m sure this is all as fake as Russiagate you goddamn liar.
And others are back to not believing them. Funny how that works.
Whistleblower are not anonymous. If they're federal, they have to declare to get whistleblower protections.
^ this.
I would think it would be obvious that nobody can be granted whistleblower status for an anonymous claim.
And we already know it was the investigator at the IRS who made the claim. Jeff is a fucking moron.
How are whistleblowers anonymous, Jeff?
jeffy's mom got his doctor to write a note to get out of PE. It's not his fault he doesn't understand that the purpose of blowing a whistle is to get attention focused on the person blowing so that they can then give instructions or point out a problem.
You are witnessing the biggest cover up in American history.
Somehow, "biggest cover up in American history" doesn't quite cut it.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
I spent some time trying to google the news story, but it's very, VERY old (mid 90s) and probably long-archived.
back in the 90s, the Seattle City Council voted to ban gun shows at the Seattle Center-- a politically neutral, city-owned venue (where the Space Needle is for those not familiar) which would allow any law-abiding interest group to have an 'expo' or event-- because, and I quote, 'The Seattle Center is meant for "family friendly" activities, and therefore we will deny the venue its permit'. Surprisingly, some gay groups stood up and said, "This isn't a good metric for denying a law-abiding group a right to have an event at the Center, because that could be used against the LGBTQI2MAP+ community.
The gun shows moved to Snohomish county and subsequently died out around 2012 because of a law requiring all firearms transfers to be witnessed and recorded by a licensed gun dealer.
The Seattle ban was a first step towards the elimination of private firearms ownership in the state of Washington. AR15's have been effectively outlawed in WA since beginning of June.
Soft censorship is always a first step. Then more and more until all rights are gone.
Suppose a Nazi group requested to stage a family friendly Holocaust Celebration in a local park which would include simulated gas chambers and the burning of a replica of a synagogue.
Or how about a Shakespeare Festival with a production "Romeo and Julius" where a transgendered Julius calls out to his love "Romeo, oh Romeo, Whatfor art thou Oh Romeo. Deny thy testicles and Bequeer Thyself".
I expect that low attendance for these productions would preclude any repeat performances. As despicable as the first, and as insulting as the last, they would pose no problem for the 1st Amendment. Using the government to censor awful things only results in greater censorship. This should be a do-it-yourself project and do it yourself by first ignoring and then boycotting these productions because they are attempts to provoke censorship.
Or a gun show? Much chin-scratching to be done here.
The gun shows were legal, existed for years and were most likely the safest places in Seattle. By comparison, public drag shows were almost non-existent. Staging drag shows now has a very different effect and will provoke some to want censorship. It doesn’t matter if it is intentional or not, some actions have inevitable consequences.
I remember when Drag shows you went to as a fun night out in a club where alcohol was served and there were no children present. Children weren't present for several reasons, primarily:
1. It was a chance for Adults to be around other adults, enjoying alcohol without children present.
2. The shows were baudy, often comically lude and full of child-inappropriate humor. No one was even THINKING "Hey, you know, I should bring my kids next time..."
What's also interesting about "drag" shows is you'll notice it's always men dressed as women. Why is that? Because men dressed as women, acting catty and throwing out hilarious one-liners are funny. Something something Hitchens something women aren't funny something.
Men pretending to be women is funny and always has been. It's been used by everyone from Shakespeare to Milton Berle and Bob Hope. Men believing that they are women is not funny, it's evidence of a problem.
Children are easily fooled by preposterous things. Ask a 5 year old to "go into the bedroom and see if I'm there" will often get a child to go to the bedroom, come back and dutifully tell you that you're not in the bedroom. Exposing them to "she's a man but he's really a woman, but they are really both..." will not help a child to develop the idea of male and female.
A fun night out for adults is great but most adults don't come back wondering about masculinity and femininity.
Drag Is Protected Speech
Until Shirley Muldowney shows up with a top fuel dragster.
I hadn't heard that name in years. I checked and found out that the First Lady of Drag Racing just turned 83.
I remember her from back in the 80s.
And the radio ads from the time: Rrrrrrrracewaaaaayy Park!
Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!
https://twitter.com/WallStreetSilv/status/1671973134772084757?s=19
JUST IN: California Democrats on Tuesday advanced legislation to let mental health professionals remove children from their homes and place them in state custody without parental consent.
[Link]
Let's hope the SCOTUS puts a swift end to that one. Problem - the right to raise your child is not in the Constitution. Cases like Pierce v Society of Sisters that acknowledged the right of parents to educate their children was based on the Substantive Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment. So was Roe v Wade.
No matter what Alito said about this, the contradiction is there. Hopefully, conservatives will not have traded protecting the life of fetuses for control of the lives of their children.
Hopefully, conservatives will not have traded protecting the life of fetuses for control of the lives of their children.
Yeah, it really is a shame that we forced Conservatives to choose between murdering babies and enslaving children and they choose poorly.
As usual, do you wicked retarded fucks not hear yourselves?
In an ideal world, the proposition of such a choice would be unconscionable to everyday people, let alone libertarians but, in the real world. we get depraved morons like ENB LARPing by wearing upstanding libertarian human values like a skin suit.
I was only describing the law. If it were up to me, Roe would have been upheld but on much different grounds, and the state kidnapping of children would have the governors face the death penalty.
I'm sure that both conservatives and progressives would chip in to have me whacked.
“murdering babies” BS propaganda…
A pre-viable fetus/egg/pregnancy has no inherent right to life.
No one in their right mind should remain in that God awful state. They should pack up and leave immediately. Let the Dems rule over the ashes.
https://twitter.com/julie_kelly2/status/1671983304063459364?t=K96-6lhw8st9mYHYizI4GQ&s=19
DC US Attorney Matthew Graves personally quashed a criminal investigation into Hunter Biden's tax crimes that occurred in DC in 2014 and 2015.
Can a federal prosecutor be charged with obstruction of justice?
Holy sh*t: DC US Attorney Matthew Graves buried the evidence of Hunter Biden's Burisma payments in 2014 and 2015 and FARA violations.
This is a major scandal.
[Links]
"and nothing else happened."
Hey, is this on the fake news--didn't happen much--good that it did--last year, who cares spectrum, on a conspiracy that will become true next year?
https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1671967608889810956?t=SU9qseEPK_rB2N5G4P5zLw&s=19
Ukraine warned about this same exact scenario last fall and were subsequently revealed to have been covering up their own failed assault on the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant
[Link]
I have said this before. Unless people are equally supportive and happy to see actual female strippers doing the same exact routines with the same costumes, and with the same audiences, they are full of shit.
drag queen =/= stripper
I will count you as full of shit.
I've been 100% opposed to these drag queen story hours on pretty much the *exact* same grounds. Schedule an honest, no shit, female stripper story hour before or after and my opposition drops to virtually zero (even female stripper story hour should probably still happen at your local strip club but, again, female stripper story hour club next door to the library, drag queen story hour next door on the other side of the library and, as long as there's not the same redundant retardation like the female stripper story hour building has to have everyone inside with the windows blacked out and the drag queens get to stand on the curb and hoot and holler at passersby, fair's fair).
Not gonna slog through almost 200 comments at this point. All I’m gonna say is: just because something is “protected speech” doesn’t make it OK to do in front of children.
Pr0n is protected speech. Still doesn’t mean you should be allowed to show it to 8 year olds.
There are a lot of big assumptions around here about what the performers are going to do during this drag show.
I understand not wanting 8 year olds to see pornography. But, nobody had a problem with drag in front of children when Robin Williams or Bog Sagat or Bugs Bunny did it. So why do so many people have a problem with it now? What changed?
The Culture War. Team Blue and Red partisans spending too much time on the Internet and not enough time touching grass.
This is the battlefield, you nit.
With the exception of maybe Bugs Bunny, most of the skits and such that people always reference weren’t drag performances, they were cross dressing which, and this might shock you, aren’t the same thing.
In the pictures I’ve seen, these shows are obviously biological men dressing like strippers halfway through their act. I’m no prude, but like a striptease, it’s inappropriate for children, it’s inappropriate for a public park, and it’s inappropriate for any venue that is unable to control entry and inform those entering what they’re going to see.
Calling the performances “dressing like women” is akin to calling a guy dressed like Hitler “dressed like a European leader”.
Time for Utah to start hosting Christian skits at CA city parks. ????
I’m all in favor of open-venue at public parks; but sure don’t support a double standard.
I almost laughed my *ss off when Seattle wrote MAGA on the streets after the CHAZ insurrection.
BLM did a big street mural in one California town. MAGA types tried to complain but the city council said it was free speech. So MAGA did their own street mural. And then street murals were banned.
Yep; That's the one I'm referring too 🙂 I laughed so hard...
Nothing spoke double standard like that one.
https://twitter.com/EndWokeness/status/1672052386783801345?t=xlytT5qyeZX_u4ONpPQdLw&s=19
Sunday: US Navy detects implosion of the Titan, doesn’t inform public
Monday: “TITAN IS MISSING!!”
Tuesday: “BANGING IS HEARD!!”
Wednesday: “RUNNING OUT OF AIR!!”
Thursday: “WRECKAGE FOUND!!”
They knew the outcome 4 days ago, yet they kept the drama going for the entire week
[Link]
The sound was suggestive but not definite proof of an implosion. To get definite proof, you send an ROV down to find a debris field with identifiable parts of the missing craft. They did that as soon as possible. Deep-diving ROV's are not deployed from aircraft, but from a ship with special equipment, so it takes time to get them to a location in mid-ocean.
Nobody had a problem with doing drag in front of children when Bog Sagat did it on Full House or Robin Williams did it in Mrs. Douptfire. So why did everyone decide to make it illegal now? What changed?
Legislated Butt-poking entitlements....
The left is just blowing away any humanitarian standards to get some attention. Next thing you know it'll be open beastiality shows for children. Cause poking your wanker in animals is *special*.
This line of argumentation is particularly annoying because you absolutely know you are pushing a false equivalence. Drag shows are a specific stylistic form of drag and are typically sexual in nature. Men dressing in women's clothing for comedy is not the same thing even if the term "drag" can be used for both.
Heck, go back a couple more decades. Nobody had a problem with it when Milton Berle did it. Nobody had a problem with it when Flip Wilson did it.
Two questions.
1. Why is it so important for caricatures of women to parade themselves to children?
2. I get Let's Go Brandon, but what do the rest of the initials in LGBTQ WHATEVER stand for?
1. Why is it so important for Miley Cyrus or Julie Andrews or Placido Domingo or RuPaul to "parade themselves"? Because they are performers. Entertainers. Drag queens are the same. Performers perform for audiences. Audiences choose to be there. If there are children present, it's because their parents chose to bring them. So, no issue here. Your types scream "parental choice" when it comes to schools and not allowing gender reassignment therapy, so why is parental choice not allowed here?
2. Google is your friend. Use it and learn something.
1. Thank you for sharing your feelings about why drag queens parrade themselves to children.
2. I have found google to have zero credibility, thus it is not a friend of people who want to learn.
3. You know nothing about what my type is and I question your motive for bringing it up. Since you mentioned it, of course, parental authority and resppnsibility is of paramount importance. Transgenderism is a social construct; gender disphoria is a mental condition (and as such should not be shamed any more than schizophrenia.) Whther gender disphoria should be addressed by treating the mind or changing the body should be explored by the patient with medical proffesionals, and their parents if they have not reached the age of consent. This is not a decision for government, school boards or teachers. I say the same thing about sending children to drag shows. You want to send your kids, have a nut. It is not acceptable under any circumstances to make children go. I support the right of leftists like national socialists and worse, communists to perform publicly. So, can you flag any comment I made that lead you to feel that I would use government to stifle free speech?
So are strip shows and porn, yet we don’t allow those in public parks or schools. So your point is what?
The question with drag is not men dressing up as women, but where do they cross the line. Much like many local ordinances for strippers. Many say nipples must be covered or the woman’s vagina covered. They often have undercover cops in the crowd enforcing the ordinance and arresting violators.
If you want to take your kids to that crap it is your right, but stupid in my opinion.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fdailycaller.com%2F2023%2F06%2F20%2Fpolice-find-four-children-and-a-dead-body-at-boston-apartment-filled-with-drugs-sex-toys-and-men-in-drag%2F
I'm OK if Drag Shows are speech and cannot be regulated to any extent. What would be more effective, more efficient and more to the point would be to prosecute any parent who allows his or her child to attend a sexually explicit Drag Show on charges of "Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor" or "Reckless endangerment". If the parents are willing to allow this stuff, they are clearly incapable of being parents.
^^^ Excellent Point ^^^. No need to babysit the scenario (banning).
It should also be obvious that a corporation criticizing a law passed by a state legislature is protected by the 1st Amendment
But that didn't stop 'Florida Man' from retaliating against Disney...
Similarly, it is clearly settled precedent that 'when children are present' is NOT a valid reason for governments to regulate speech/expression...
There is a serious problem among 'conservatives' to day, in that people are more and more willing to chuck the Constitution in the trash can if it lets them do something that will piss off 'liberals'.
Which is not what we are supposed to be about....
A valid point. Turnabout is fair play and all that, but I hoped the conservatives would be the adults in the room.
It's (still somewhat) a free country. People should be free to dress how they want, and put on shows with artistic license, and people should be free to attend or not attend them.
But any school district should be able to ban any adult entertainment deemed not suitable for children. That doesn't impinge on the freedom of adults to engage in whatever comedy and/or debauchery they choose.
But it is not legal for an employer to bring in a comedy troupe to mock the religion of some of its employees -- the employees don't have the option to not show up for work.
The many ?blessings? of having a *Commie*-Education system?
Funny; I was told the USA wasn't suppose to be a Communist system.
Yeah, pretty sure exposing yourself to and grooming children for pedophilia isn't legal. Let a drag queen try the "but your honor, my penis was making a statement" argument.
Since pornography has also been recognized as a free speech right, then by extension there should be no impediments to using a public park to film a pornographic movie.
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