Storks Don't Take Orders From the State
Falling birthrates, pro-natalist policies, and the limits of population control

On the left and the right, in Europe and the United States, a consensus is growing: People aren't having enough kids—not enough to support the welfare state, not enough to preserve the culture, not enough to keep advanced economies young, thriving, and entrepreneurial.
The last time the U.S. was at replacement level fertility (the number of kids the average woman must have to stave off population decline, without immigration) was 2007. Replacement level fertility is roughly 2.1 kids per woman. Since then, America's total fertility rate dropped to 1.66. This, in turn, led to a lot of unanswered questions about the fate of federal entitlement programs, innovation, education, politics, and culture in an aging country.
To many, the solution is obvious: Americans should have more children. Yet pro-natalist policies have a weak track record in every country where they've been tried. They're incredibly expensive, they produce few or no gains in fertility, and they can lead to a disturbingly authoritarian form of governance where individual choices about family formation are deprioritized and women are pressured to have babies for the national good. Efforts to control birthrates at the population level inevitably end with efforts to control women at the individual level. Meanwhile, birthrates have declined in tandem with several social upsides as well: better education, greater wealth, longer life spans, and more freedom for women.
The U.S. and other developed countries falling below replacement level fertility needn't simply accept a choice between drastic population decline and despair or a forced-birth regime. But responding to demographic shifts will require both creativity and humility about the limits of public policy to influence birthrates. Fertility, and all the individual choice it entails, may be too big for even the most powerful governments to control.
What Won't Work
Falling birthrates aren't a new phenomenon. America's overall fertility rate has been falling for more than two centuries. There have been periods of rebound as well, both in the middle of the 20th century and from about 1990 through 2007. But since then, America's fertility rate dropped rapidly below replacement levels. The first full year after COVID-19 came to the U.S. bucked the trend—but only slightly.
Nor is the United States alone. In countries with a diverse array of cultures, political systems, values, geographic locations, and degrees of homogeneity, fertility rates are way down. Today, fewer than half the world's countries—largely in Africa and the Middle East—have fertility rates more than a few points above replacement fertility, with many falling far short.
Declining national birthrates pose real challenges. First and foremost, a country with low birthrates will soon face an aging population. While a country with more old people than young may arguably be wiser, it's also less productive, less innovative, and less physically fit. That could mean labor shortages, especially in manual labor and fields related to caring for all those old folks. It will definitely strain pension systems and public resources if the tax base shrinks as expenditures on old-age entitlement programs keep rising. A shrinking tax base also means higher taxes, less money for public services, or both. And the effects of an aging population could reverberate throughout the economy. Colleges and universities will have fewer students. We'll need fewer teachers and more home health aides. Our health care systems and our manufacturers may need to shift gears.
Across the world, efforts to address these issues have focused almost entirely on attempts to reverse the underlying trend. Countries from Russia to Japan to Italy have tried an array of measures—from pressure campaigns to subsidized child care to giving people days off work for making babies—to raise national birthrates. Yet fertility rates remain stable or continue to fall. Over and over again, officials have demonstrated that government-led efforts to induce higher fertility produce weak results at best, and frequently fail entirely, often at high public cost.
South Korea spent more than $200 billion subsidizing child care and parental leave over the past 16 years, President Yoon Suk Yeol said last fall. Yet the fertility rate fell from 1.1 in 2006 to 0.81 in 2021.
The Japanese government almost quadrupled spending on families between 1990 and 2015, expanding child care provisions, paid family leave, parental tax credits, and more. The fertility rate went from 1.54 in 1990 to 1.3 in 2005 before rebounding slightly (1.4 in 2015) and then falling back to around 1.3.
And then there's Singapore, which offers $8,000 for a first or second baby and $10,000 for every child thereafter—up from $6,000 and $8,000 back in 2014. The authorities have also tried offering tax rebates, guaranteeing 16 weeks of government-paid maternity leave for married mothers, giving housing subsidies to parents, matching Child Development Account savings up to thousands of dollars, and other schemes. None of this has stanched Singapore's plunging fertility rate. In 1990, it was 1.83. In recent years, it has hovered between 1.1 and 1.2.
Even if financial constraints are depressing fertility at the margins, government bribes don't seem to make a big difference. "If someone offers you $500 or $5,000—I mean, raising a child costs way more than that," says Phillip Levine, an economist at Wellesley College. "So it's a pretty tough sell, and it's not like we don't have experience with those sorts of policies both in this country and abroad."
Research on "pro-natalist policies designed to facilitate work and childbearing is mixed, but generally does not find evidence of sizable fertility effects," Levine and the University of Maryland economist Melissa Kearney write in a recent paper for the Aspen Economic Strategy Group, "The Causes and Consequences of Declining US Fertility." For example, "policy reforms in Norway in the late 1980s and early 1990s that substantially expanded paid maternity leave had no discernible effect on fertility rates." Meanwhile, "the lengthening of paid parental leave in Sweden led many women to have their subsequent child before the end of the parental leave, fueling a temporary baby boom, that was subsequently offset by a baby bust." Similarly, research from Spain and Alaska has found that cash schemes for parents could change the timing of births but not the total number of births.
A 2021 study for Population and Development Review suggests some positive effects from various pro-natal policies, but these effects were small, often fleeting, and dependent on context. It also notes that "studies that find no effect on fertility are more likely to remain unpublished," and that this publication bias may contribute to an "overestimation of the importance of policy for fertility."
The amount of money required to trigger even these small effects is enormous. In "The Economic Consequences of Family Policies," published in the Journal of Economic Perspectives in 2017, researchers found "one extra percentage point of GDP spending" on early childhood education and child care programs was "associated with 0.2 extra children per woman." In the U.S., where the 2022 GDP was $25.46 trillion, that would mean spending more than $250 billion.*
Americans often suggest our low birthrates may stem from a lack of government benefits for parents and children. But in the social democracies of Europe, where government-managed health care and mandated parental leave are the norm, fertility rates are no higher than in the United States. In many cases, they're lower. The 2020 fertility rate in the U.K. was 1.6. In Germany it was 1.5. Finland hit 1.4. Denmark and Sweden were both at 1.7.
Since 2010, total fertility rates "have declined throughout the Nordic countries, despite little change in family policies," according to a team of Oslo-based researchers in a 2021 paper for Population and Development Review. Meanwhile, "in Anglo-Saxon countries, recuperation happened despite relatively low public support to families."
Clearly, socialized health care and child care aren't a panacea for falling fertility rates. But they are a recipe for further overwhelming our soon-to-be-shrinking working-age population with taxes.
Other evidence casts doubt on economic explanations for people having fewer kids.
In a 2023 survey by the Pew Research Center, low-income parents were more likely to say that parenting was enjoyable or rewarding most of the time. This maps with the ample anecdotal data out there suggesting that the middle and upper classes feel more parenting anxiety. To the extent that financial concerns keep fertility low among the latter, they're focused on elite luxuries such as tuition for private schools and top-tier colleges—concerns that pro-natalist policies are unlikely to address.
Some blame declining fertility on men's lack of a strong breadwinner status, and suggest we focus on jobs programs or increasing educational opportunities for young men. But when Scott Winship, the director of the Center on Opportunity and Social Mobility at the American Enterprise Institute, looked at the "marriageability" of today's young men—as represented by their ability to exceed what a typical sole breadwinner married dad aged 25–29 made in 1979—he found that the share of young men today who are "marriageable" is at or near peak levels. And marriageability is up, especially for black men, if we define it by educational attainment.
"Centering changes in marriage, fertility, and female workforce participation highlights the role of choices in explaining family change," Winship wrote at The Dispatch. "Those choices have reflected affluence, not economic distress."
The fact that fertility rates started their recent slide in 2007 has led many to blame the recession. But while the recession was undoubtedly associated with some drop off—"recessions routinely lead to fewer births for perfectly reasonable reasons"—it can't explain the sustained effect, says Levine. "The decline…was probably larger than you might have expected just because of the recession, and it certainly didn't abate when the recession ended."
Can We Culture Shock Our Way to More Babies?
On the right, one preferred hypothesis blames low fertility on modernity's ravage: sexual permissiveness, the degradation of marriage, and feminists telling women they have callings other than motherhood. On the left, there are frequent complaints about unrealistic expectations for parents and especially mothers, who still do more housework and child care than men while also working jobs that are viewed as demanding more than in eras past.
Pew's 2023 survey did find two-thirds of parents saying raising kids is harder than they expected it to be, and a third of mothers saying it's a lot harder. Burnout almost certainly explains why some people decide to stop at one or two kids.
Meanwhile, modern parenting styles may require more commitment. The average mom in 2012 spent almost twice as much time on child care as the average mother in 1965, according to a 2016 study in the Journal of Marriage and Family. The amount of time dads spent on child care nearly quadrupled in that time. (For both, college education was linked to more child care time.)
And "a rising share of women of childbearing age are unmarried—from 58 percent in 2008 to 63 percent in 2018," according to Levine and Kearney's Aspen paper. Unmarried women tend to have fewer babies than their married counterparts (yes, even today), so "the decline in marriage rates leads to a lower fertility rate overall."
Levine and Kearney also note that "the median age at first marriage has meanwhile risen continuously over the past 50 years, from 22.0 in 1980 to 25.6 in 2007 to 28.1 in 2020." This, too, "contributes to greater numbers of unmarried women among those of childbearing age, and consequently lower birthrates."
With cultural as with economic explanations, pro-natalists are optimistic about the government's capability to intervene. But to attempt a cure via top-down controls would be worse than the disease; nations shouldn't increase birthrates at the expense of individual choice in relationships. And it's hard to imagine how governments could change expectations about parenting.
Nor is it easy to interpret all that heavier parental investment. Are people having fewer kids because each kid is more work? Or are they investing more time and resources into each kid because they have fewer of them? Is more child care time a burden, or is it a choice made possible when technology allows other household tasks to take less time?
There's another reason to doubt the anti-modernity arguments: the wide range of places experiencing low fertility. Hungary is currently under the rule of Viktor Orbán, one of the staunchest social conservatives atop any Western democracy. It is hardly a bastion of liberal wokeness. Yet its fertility rate is on par with America's. France is known for the opposite of helicopter parenting, but its 2020 fertility rate was just 1.8.
There is even some data challenging the idea that the increase in working women is the main cause of lower fertility (and, in turn, that enabling more mothers to stay at home could reverse the trend). The percentage of U.S. women in the work force climbed from 37.7 percent in 1960 to 51.5 percent in 1980, a time period during which the fertility rate fell from 3.7 to 1.8. Case closed, right? Maybe not. The female work force participation rate reached 60.2 percent in 2000. Yet as more American women went to work in the 1980s and '90s, the fertility rate partially rebounded, reaching 2.1 in 2000 instead of plummeting further. Then, as female work force participation started falling again this century, hitting 57.4 percent in 2019, fertility rates fell dramatically.
Around the world, too, the link between more women working and fewer women having babies isn't so straightforward. In a 2000 paper for the Annual Review of Sociology, sociologists Karin Brewster and Ronald Rindfuss looked at women's labor force participation and fertility rates in 21 industrialized countries from 1965 through 1996. Female labor force participation rose in all countries. But the magnitude of this rise in each country did not match neatly to the size of the fertility dips.
Denmark and Iceland had the highest female labor force participation rates (74.1 and 80, respectively) in 1996, yet they maintained higher fertility rates (1.8 and 2) than countries with fewer working women. Female work force participation remained relatively low in Greece (45.9 percent), Italy (43.2), and Spain (46.2), yet these countries had the lowest fertility rates (1.3 for Greece, 1.2 for Italy and Spain). Ireland's female work force rate was also on the lower end (49.4 percent), yet it saw the steepest fertility rate drop (down from 4 to 1.9).
While education is associated with later childbearing (and later childbearing with having fewer kids overall), highly educated women now are more likely to have children than highly educated women were a few generations back. "As of 2014, 82% of women at the end of their childbearing years with a bachelor's degree were mothers, compared with 76% of their counterparts in 1994," Pew reported in 2018. For women in their early 40s with master's degrees, the share with at least one child rose from 71 to 79 percent. For those with a Ph.D. or professional degree, it leaped from 65 to 80 percent.
If anything, countries with developed economies have made education and careers more compatible with having children than for generations of women past.
In certain quarters, the stereotype of the selfishly childless urban professional woman remains the villain of the declining fertility story. But in 2021, the U.S. was essentially on par with historic trends for childlessness, according to a U.S. Census Bureau report.
In the late '80s, the percentage of women ages 40 to 44 in the U.S. who had never had any children was around 15 percent, according to data from Pew Research. Although that figure rose to 20 percent by 2006, by 2015 it was back down to 15 percent. Clearly, childlessness isn't driving the decline. Rather, women who are mothers are having fewer kids than in the past. Since 1976, the percentage of U.S. families with four or more children has shrunk dramatically (from 40 percent in 1976 to 14 percent in 2014), while the percentage of mothers with only one or two children saw a steep rise.
Shifting expectations so that more women can be stay-at-home moms, or so that more couples will split childrearing equally, might help influence some small percentage of fertility decisions. All sorts of minor changes might make some small impact.
We saw a slight uptick of births during the COVID-19 pandemic, which many have attributed to more telecommuting and workplace flexibility. Perhaps remote work could boost birthrates. Then again, the COVID baby boomlet could also just be a matter of people slightly shifting the timing of their pregnancies.
Small cultural changes like these might make parenting, and deciding to have more children, easier for some subset of the population. That's great, but such adjustments are unlikely to significantly impact reproductive decisions at scale or in the long term.
The Mystery of Individual Choice
Ultimately, the massive post-recession drop in births doesn't lend itself to easy or politically convenient explanations. There are "a lot of plausible hypotheses," Levine says: rising child care costs, rising home prices, greater economic opportunities for women, greater access to contraception, increasing student loan debt. But the evidence isn't there for any of those theories. In the U.S., they fall apart when you compare states. "In the states where those factors are rising more, are birthrates falling more?" asks Levine. "The answer to that is no." None of those hypotheses "are consistent with that cross-state variation."
Levine thinks we've been looking at this the wrong way. Instead of trying to pinpoint something that happened in 2007 or sometime during this recent decline, we should be looking further back.
"Perhaps it's not about something that changed in the world at a particular point in time, but…the women who are going through their childbearing years over time are changing their behaviors," he says. For "more recent birth cohorts of women, their entire childbearing pattern is different," which could reflect "a sense of shifting priorities among women and their families."
In 2007, millennial women were entering their mid-20s—peak childbearing years by late-20th-century standards. But instead of following in female forebears' footsteps and having a first child around age 24 or 25, the women of this cohort waited. By 2014, the average age of first-time U.S. mothers was 26.3. Meanwhile, the median age of U.S. mothers, not just first-time mothers, went from 27 in 1990 to 30 in 2019. Clearly, young women today are starting families later in life than their predecessors did.
Initially, it seemed possible that this was merely a transition period—that fertility rates would fall for a brief interval, then bounce back as women caught up at later ages with earlier cohorts. Younger women are indeed playing some catch-up as they age. While birthrates among teenagers, 20- to 24-year-olds, and 25- to 29-year-olds have all decreased over the past three decades, birthrates have increased among women ages 30 to 44.
But women in their 30s and 40s aren't having enough children to fully offset the fewer younger women having children. In 2019, America saw roughly 77 fewer births per 1,000 20-somethings than it did in 1990, with just a little over 46 additional births per 1,000 among women aged 30 and up.
That's not even taking into account the massive drop in births to teens. America's falling fertility rate owes a lot to a decrease in teen pregnancies, which declined nearly 73 percent from 1990 to 2019, and has fallen further since, especially among younger teens.
Lower fertility rates are far from being all bad news. For one thing, they're a sign of rising prosperity. Across high-income countries, the 2020 fertility rate was 1.5. For middle-income countries it was 2.2, and for low-income countries it was 4.7.
As nations become more prosperous, their residents have fewer children. Many reasons for this represent positive developments. In the U.S., people have fewer kids now in part because fewer children are dying young. Moreover, as the economy has developed away from farming, American families no longer need children as field and household labor. Lower fertility is also a product of vast increases in personal choice and opportunity, especially for women. We've loosened the cultural expectation that everyone must marry and have children. Thanks to advances in birth control, people have more control over their reproductive destinies.
In short: People are having fewer kids because they are choosing to have fewer kids.
Some people dispute this, pointing to the fact that ideal fertility doesn't match completed fertility. That is, the number of kids Americans say they want—or at least the number they say is "ideal"—doesn't match the number of kids they actually have.
Ideal family size has shrunk along with actual family size—down from an ideal of around 3.5 kids in the 1930s through 1960s to much closer to two after that. But Ohio State University sociologist Sarah Hayford found the number of children Americans say they want has changed little throughout the past few decades. Gen Xers, millennials, and the oldest Gen Zers have all said, on average, the ideal family size is 2.1 to 2.2 children.
Some look at the discrepancy between these numbers and actual fertility rates and see women's desires being thwarted. But there's another possibility: Priorities change with age and experience. "One of the things we see is that when people are 20, the number of children they plan or the number of children they want is pretty close to two on average in the United States," says Hayford. "That number declines as people get older."
Younger women may romanticize a big family but find that reality changes their calculations, for any number of reasons. (It's also important to note that some surveys about fertility ask about personal wants or plans, while some ask about the "ideal" family size. There's a distinction between "an ideal for a generic person in the world versus my personal ideal for me versus my plan," Hayford points out.) Often these aren't stories of unfulfilled reproductive dreams; they just capture the reality that people change their minds.
And while the disparity between ideal and actual family size looms large in U.S. discourse, this gap also exists in other wealthy nations—including many European countries with expensive benefits programs. So public policy isn't likely to make a difference here, either.
Keep Calm and Start Adapting
So what can be done to address the problems associated with falling birthrates?
One answer is immigration. It might not lead to more American-born babies—though foreign-born women do tend to have more children here than native-born Americans do—but it does provide new residents who can help stave off population decline.
The U.S. attracts immigrants from all over the world, and, since the 1980s, especially from Mexico, the Caribbean, and South America. But many of the countries to the south, including Mexico, Venezuela, and the Dominican Republic, are experiencing significant fertility rate declines too. In a few decades, there may be fewer people looking to get out of these countries because there will be fewer people in them. Migration from the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa could fill the gap, but those areas, too, are expected to see some declining fertility in coming years.
Even if working-age people from these locales want to come here, however, U.S. politics may make it difficult. "The opportunities for lawful migration of Africans are extremely constrained" in the U.S., George Mason University economist Michael Clemens told NPR in January. Considering what a divisive issue immigration is these days, loosening immigration restrictions may be almost as tough as convincing people to have more babies. Still, it's a place to start, and one with a much higher chance of success than your average pro-natalist policy.
A second answer is technology. Over the past few decades, the number of American babies conceived through in vitro fertilization and other assisted reproduction technologies has skyrocketed. To the extent these procedures continue to improve and the costs continue to come down, we might see even more couples who desperately want kids but are struggling to have them find a way.
Egg freezing is another technology that's still prohibitively expensive for most people. But should prices fall and the procedure become more accessible, it could help women who want kids later in life ensure they'll be able to have them.
Then there are the more futuristic visions. Artificial wombs, which could aid with gestation or save the lives of preterm babies. Embryos derived from skin cells. Drugs that help women create new eggs. Eggs created in a lab from ovarian tissues. Sci-fi scenarios aren't likely to make the childless-by-choice suddenly want babies, and we don't have these options yet. But we could have them soon, giving new options to people with fertility struggles and to women for whom pregnancy has proved too risky an option.
We could also start treating population decline more like an opportunity than a crisis.
Stuart Gietel-Basten, a demographer at Khalifa University, believes we should start focusing on the problems associated with population decline rather than staving off the decline itself by trying to increase birthrates.
With fertility rates having fallen for decades already and the existing old living longer, many of those problems are heading our way no matter what. Even if a huge baby boom started tomorrow, it wouldn't fix that.
"Babies don't work, right?" says Gietel-Basten. "They don't pay tax as well. And also babies born today are…not going to enter the labor force until the mid-2040s, by which time the ships that we're worried about have long sailed. The pensions will be beyond salvation and the labor force that these new babies are going to be going into will look completely different to how it is today."
Instead of focusing on fertility rates, Gietel-Basten thinks we should ask ourselves, "What is the actual thing that you're worried about? So if you're worried about the sustainability of the pension system, for example, then you fix the pension system….If it's about [having] a smaller workforce, what can you do to make that workforce more productive?"
In the U.S., addressing Social Security and Medicare shortfalls will soon become necessary regardless of demographic changes. We should also be readying our health care infrastructure and labor force to handle an aging population, and removing regulatory barriers to businesses and technologies that cater to older adults.
None of this is simple. Gietel-Basten thinks that's one reason politicians prefer to focus on fertility. "If you're a politician, you can either say, 'Oh, I'll do all of those things'—most of which are going to be pretty unpopular—or we just have more babies."
In practice, "just have more babies" isn't easy, either, but it has a narrative simplicity that's easy to message and, for conservatives, complements other longstanding priorities or values. You can see why it resonates. It just won't work.
Don't Panic
Panic makes bad policy. It also forgets the simple truth that the future isn't set. Trendlines can change, often for unexpected reasons.
Remember the 20th century freakout about population growth? It prompted China to institute its one-child policy. While other countries weren't quite as drastic as that, there was a ton of political and cultural hand wringing about the catastrophes we were allegedly facing. Then the growth slowed, not because of any central planning efforts but through forces that no one predicted.
"The 20th century, demographically, was wild," says Gietel-Basten. "The demographic change, between 1900 and the year 2000, all around the world—it had never happened before, and it will never, never, never, ever happen again. And yet…the big crises of the 20th century were not because of demographic change."
Human beings, it turns out, aren't great at predicting mass social shifts. We've been surprised by demographic trends before, and we just might be again. Sometimes society changes in unexpected ways, spurred by developments technological, biological, social, cultural, or all of the above.
Whatever happens, we should accept that we are limited in our ability to control human behavior. What we can actually do is adapt our practices to accommodate whatever happens.
"If you want to be hyper positive about this, [demographic changes] can become a stimulus for change," suggests Gietel-Basten. "It forces innovation, it forces countries to change and forces society to adapt."
Making hard moves to address low fertility and an aging population will be easier once we accept that those moves are necessary. "Get people to have a lot more babies" is not possible, and it may not even be desirable. Let's take that off the table for now. If technology or unexpected social forces somehow produce a fertility rate reversal, it will be a bonus, but it won't be our only lifeline.
*CORRECTION: The original version of this piece misstated the projected increase in fertility per percent of GDP in the U.S.
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https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1653217744857321472?t=7wNw5w1teg0o1M-GgmnBow&s=19
Muslim culture has been woven throughout American culture from the very start.
We must always stand against anti-Muslim hate. And stand up for the rights and dignity of all people.
It's essential to who we are: a nation founded on the idea of freedom and justice for all.
Our first real war as an independent nation was against anti-Christian hate through terrorism and piracy by Muslims, so there interaction with Islam has been woven through our earliest history.
Of course, the question is, who is Biden arguing against here?
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An addendum: The Muslim Barbary Pirates were, in part, motivated by hatred for Non-Muslims, but ackshuyally, the peace treaty with the Barbary Pirates stated that the United States "is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion."
So, from our end of things, The Barbary Wars were not religious, just a desire to keep our Citizens and freight from becoming ransom-bait and booty.
That was the treaty signed under duress that was renounced by the war.
Uh, no. We got them off our ass, so we won.
Or, alternatively, we wussed out.
Uh, no. It's the nub of the jist of the U.S.A., as confirmed by no mention of Christianity or any other religion in the U.S. Constitution.
Smaller populations in an age of climate change are hugely beneficial. We won WWII with 130 million people and returning to that population will reduce housing costs for young people and increase their wages as competition for jobs lessens. Robots with AI will wipe our aging asses and we will have to finally fix the Ponzi Scheme nature of our retirement systems. Other species will benefit as well as their habitat is increased by rewilding urban sprawl. Carbon emissions will be much cheaper to reduce as population declines even as our standard of living goes up. All in all a plus plus for humanity and all other life on this limited planet
Ah! An Econazi with a Final Solution all predicted out. How unusual!
WTF are you on about? Reducing population through voluntary choices is hardly what I'd call "Nazi". Pretty much the opposite, actually. The Nazis were rabidly pro-natal, at least for proper Aryan ubermenschen. Their main rationale for invading and conquering other countries was the desire for lebensraum, living space for a larger German population.
Perhaps this is evidence that the sexual revolution, feminisim, queer acceptance, and secularism are cultural anti-survival traits. A culture inculcated with those ideologies fails to thrive, and is, eventually, a self-correcting problem. Of course, one may not like the sort of cultures which do thrive and will replace the dying ones.
culture? you're blaming culture? what are you a republican? /s
Birth rate decline has been going on for over century. Long long before the sixties free love movement, long before queer culture, long before feminism. It's not about queers or feminism. It's about the birth control. Something that has been practiced as long as humans knew where babies came from.
Poor countries need more children because children are both sources of labor and sources of old age investment. But the more affluent and technological a nation, the less it needs massive amounts of labor and so the demand for children lowers. People voluntarily have fewer children (birth control, look it up). And they wait later to start families. This is not a queer conspiracy. This is not ideological.
A culture needs to have fertility rates to maintain itself. And queer ideology is only one aspect of the anti-fertility movement in our culture. And again, the point I am making is that the culture we currently have is not conducive to cultural survival because we are refusing to renew ourselves.
Society is trending towards a population which lives almost forever and rarely reproduces. That’s just as sustainable as a population which dies young and reproduces quickly.
Thanks for letting us know you're an idiot. There is no evidence for further increases in longevity but please, return to whatever den of stupid gave you that talking point.
The U.S. Just Lost 26 Years’ Worth of Progress on Life Expectancy
Thanks Donald Trump.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-u-s-just-lost-26-years-worth-of-progress-on-life-expectancy/
COVID and overdose deaths have sharply cut U.S. life expectancy, with Indigenous peoples experiencing the biggest decline
Wut?
It seems like a fairly straightforward, easily understood sentence to me. Then again, you regularly demonstrate a major lack of reading comprehension.
Last time I checked, American lifespan is plummeting, whether it be blamed on kid hatred, jabs and "died suddenly", open border fentanyl despair and overdose, gender bending hormones in the environment and reduced T...better get that Singularity rollin' STAT! /sarc
If you are looking at births per year, yes, you can compensate with longevity. The births per year needs to roughly be population divided by average lifespan. But the article is looking at lifetime births per woman and for that the threshold is slightly above 2.0 completely independent of longevity.
And we might be approaching a limit on further longevity increases. Assuming we retain human genes and cell structure it looks like there’s a hard limit, even if you do everything perfect with respect to diet, exercise, and avoiding disease and accidents. Roughly 100 average, with a few rare outliers to around 120.
If there was a combination of diet and behavior that would get you past that, someone out of 10+ billion people in the era of modern record keeping would have stumbled on it by chance. No one has.
Poor countries need more children because children are both sources of labor and sources of old age investment. But the more affluent and technological a nation, the less it needs massive amounts of labor and so the demand for children lowers. People voluntarily have fewer children (birth control, look it up). And they wait later to start families. This is not a queer conspiracy. This is not ideological.
It is absolutely ideological. The ideology of the leftist malthusians that infect our planet.
But the more affluent and technological a nation, the less it needs massive amounts of labor and so the demand for children lowers
Breeding isn't connected with a need for workers. Humans aren't ants.
Breeding is connected with evolutionary success. The more healthy children you have, the better off you are.
Many hands makes labor easier--and, being easier, it can provide more.
The malthusians have been fighting this idea for centuries. Not they've metastasized into using 'useless eaters'
They are demonizing human success in the pursuit of the ability to control humans.
I say 'they', but let's be frank, 'you' feels better, doesn't it? That little frisson that happens when you know you're helping destroy it all.
I agree. Leftists are trying to eliminate child labour so they can say “Look how useless and burdensome and difficult children are!” And adoption is also a bad idea because children who have been put up for adoption probably have bad biological parents, and therefore bad genes which we don’t want to proliferate.
Although, longer lives are a fine alternative to higher birth rates.
If we become able to keep the elderly in working condition for longer.
Breeding isn’t connected with a need for workers. Humans aren’t ants.
I don't think that's entirely true (and you sort of contradict yourself with "Many hands makes labor easier–and, being easier, it can provide more."). People can make rational choices about breeding that involve considerations of what labor children can provide.
Breeding is connected with evolutionary success. The more healthy children you have, the better off you are.
The first sentence is certainly true. The more offspring you have the more likely your genes are to survive. However, it does not obviously follow that you as the individual having the children are necessarily better off, particularly in a society where most people don't work on farms.
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Speaking of somebody with a lot of kids.... 🙂
See, folks? This is what lowly state that Pro-Natalism reduced her to, so be warned!
To suggest that nothing in the modern era has had any contribution to declining birthrates is to border on the insane. It may not be a problem per se, but to say that the invention of birth control and the medical advancements and global acceptance of abortion had no effect on birthrates can't be true on its face.
The ability of women to control their birth cycle is a significant change in the sociological landscape which can't be underestimated.
Yes, the breathless remonstrations of a Fox News host on how the sexual revolution is to blame is not something to hang your hat on, but suggesting that abortion and/or birth control were incidental in declining birth rates is wrong.
Did you include the birth rate declines of the millions of people murdered by Communism and Naziism who didn't have children?
If poor countries need more children, why are people from poor countries flocking to rich ones instead of relying on the many children they have in their home countries?
Because as we all know, immigrants create economic positives. They cannot create those staying in their home countries, because then they are not immigrants. By moving from one country to another, they magically attain the ability to become a driving piston in the great engine of economic prosperity; in their home countries they may have been illiterate dirt farmers, but in their new countries, they will never be a burden on the welfare state. No! They will be doctors, nurses, engineers. All through magic of immigration!
For culture warriors, everything is ideological.
Or perhaps that we need to work on preserving and inhancing culture by preserving memory and intelligence, slowing the aging process, and ultimately not dying.
I Am The Very Model of A Singularitarian 🙂
https://youtu.be/6hKG5l_TDU8
Entropy always wins in the long run.
Only in a closed system. Singularitarianism/Transhumanism is trying to increase the inputs of energy into living things. All we can rightly say is that we humans will do it or die trying. 🙂
Did you even read the article? Countries with none of those things are also facing similar declines, which suggests your explanation is bullshit. Unless you can somehow explain how declines in the US are magically different from those in other countries...
Did you read the article? Orban's "ati-woke" Hungary is having the exact same problems as the Nordic countries while they have opposite policies. Your knee-jerk response doesn't make sense when you look at the data.
Good luck making birth control illegal.
When the police/CPS says that letting your kid walk to school or play outside is child neglect, when daycares have strict limits on how many kids can be there and are required to have employees with expensive degrees, when you have to worry about having the exact right type of carseat based on age/weight/height at all times...
When people are told that they can't possibly even think about getting married until they finish college and make some money, when people can just kill their unborn kids with abortion if they think it's inconvenient right now, when increasing numbers of young people are declaring themselves gay/trans/nonbinary/asexual...
Well, it's not a surprise.
Actually, it does seem to be a surprise. not to someone capable of thinking through cause and effect, but the Left does seem to be eternally surprised that artificially increasing the cost and inconvenience of something tends to reduce the frequency of that activity. or at least increase the likelihood of avoiding the cost by hook or by crook.
Hey moron, productivity has steadily increased from the 1950s to now.
Wages have remained flat since the 1980s.
Unions have been decimated since the 1980s.
Those that want cheap, more productive labor, HAVE IT!
But sure blame the Left, for whatever fuckwaddery of a world you think you want.
I think you've replied to the wrong post. Nobody in this thread has mentioned productivity, wages, unions, or labor which is pretty much all you talk about. Ok, maybe the comment about requiring expensive degrees could be distorted to the point of being labor related but it's tenuous at best.
Yup, absolutely no Americans outside the monocle class has a better life than people did in the 50s.
Asshole.
And also child labour laws.
The Left is really determined to make parenting burdensome and opting out easy.
Beat that drum harder. Some child labor laws were a good idea (although, the pushback companies were getting related to well publicized conditions were leading companies to phase child workers out anyhow before the laws were passed). But this day many make it impossible even to have an after school or summer job. Just because something is partially good doesn't make it always good.
the only article from ENB that doesn't mention abortion. color me shocked
But, does she mention sex-workers (and especially those coveted sex-workers below the age of 12 that the left clamors for in the name of inclusion and diversity)?
The trendlines from raw data show that as soon as the Libertaian Party suggestion in the Roe Compromise of 1973 was heard, maternal death rates fell dramatically. They rose again as God’s Own Prohibitionists decided Holy Comstockery needed to be re-legislated. Simple facts: (https://bit.ly/3HqbdFJ)
""Babies don't work, right?" says Gietel-Basten. "They don't pay tax as well. And also babies born today are…not going to enter the labor force until the mid-2040s, by which time the ships that we're worried about have long sailed. The pensions will be beyond salvation and the labor force that these new babies are going to be going into will look completely different to how it is today."
And this is extreme myopia. Increasing fertility is such a long term solution, it is not even worth trying. The problem is, something does have to change, and I suspect Gietel-Basten is not going to love what changes will happen, though maybe he expects to be dead when they do, and why should he care then?
re: "it's not even worth trying" - That's not what that quote said. That's not even close. If you're going to attack someone's arguments, attack what they actually said, not your strawman misinterpretation.
Where does he put forth any indication that raising fertility in our population would be a good thing?
He didn't say it was either good or bad. He observed that the impact was 20 years down the line, so we should look at solutions that have a shorter window.
The entire article presented a shit-ton of data that showed that there is nothing that has been tried in terms of government policy that has made much of a difference.
It also showed that the boogeymen (less marriage, gay acceptance, trans acceptance, abortion, etc.) of the hard right haven't had a negative impact that cultiral conservatives like to claim. The one corrolation seems to be between higher national wealth/education levels and lower birth rates.
Note that the discussion isn't about fetility (the ability to reproduce), it's about birthrate (how many children each woman has in their lifetime).
As the article showed, the cultural elements that the hard right claims are causing the lower birthrates don't have any corrolation to birthrate. But since they don't want to listen, they keep believing what they want instead of what the data shows. Shocking.
What's truly shocking is how many commenters on a libertarian site buy into these same thoroughly discredited arguments.
And if teen labour was legalised, they could enter the workforce much sooner.
Boom boom boom. Beat that one note drum.
So the left wing war on women has been won?
War on Humanity really, and they do seem to be declaring victory.
Population doesn't grow in [Na]tional So[zi]alist conquered nations.
No surprise there.
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RTFA. Population growth is declining all over the globe, in countries with governments all over the political spectrum.
I gave both my children an ultimatum last year. Barely any progress on the grandchildrenstill. Going to put my foot down again but reaching a limit of effectiveness.
Just let the kids know if they don't produce workers to pay social security taxes for your retirement, they get cut out of the will because you will need all the money yourself just to survive.
Oh, they know they are out of the will. And our government is going after my retirement. For the greater good I keep hearing.
The problem isn't individuals choosing not to have kids.
The problem is so many anti-natal policies.
There's all the policies that the free range kids movement is responding to.
There's also the child labour laws.
So many policies designed to make having children burdensome.
Dare I say, like a child stomping from not getting his or her way?
If they have you doing that, why do they need more? 🙂
It doesn’t help when we tell young people we live on a dying planet and only have a few years left, and women don’t need men, because there are no differences among the sexes anyway, except men are worse, and besides it’s too racist and sexist and violent here. And they are kids themselves until 26, no need to grow up and start adulting, and ignore your biological clock- you’ll meet someone perfect 9 months before menopause
Look on the bright side: these panicked catastrophists are not reproducing. Now if we could get their propaganda out of schools and prevent new recruits into their delusions.
So, still no Handmaid’s Tale then?
Let me guess, ENB’s solution is more abortions and sterilizing kids with transition hormones and surgeries.
Do you actually read any of the articles here, or do you just save time by skipping straight to posting dumbass comments?
Storks may not take orders from the state but pregnant women should.
All women should be required to deliver at 21 weeks to ensure that they can't abort that kid after 21 weeks.
All deliveries at 21 weeks should participate in a lottery to require them to pay for the preemie costs via a preemie mortgage on their future earnings. Any preemie that loses that lottery should be given to any voter that supports 'life'.
All pregnancies should be registered by the Fetal Heartbeat Board at 6 weeks. The mothers should be subject to weekly inspections and interviews. If at any time, the mother indicates some form of depression or anxiety about the pregnancy, the Babies Are Our Future Committee should assume ownership of the fetus, rename it a baby, and do all the paperwork to determine personhood status.
There are so many ideas from paleolibertarians here about how the state can make better decisions than 'storks'.
"There are so many ideas from paleolibertarians here about how the state can make better decisions than ‘storks’."
Literally none of them that have been made by JFear.
JFear loves nothing more than to parachute into comment sections and arrogantly declare wrong shit that he "knows" to be true. He has done it on currency theory, healthcare and inflation. Now we see that his arrogance knows no bounds, and he is confidently declaring the thoughts in other peoples' heads.
It must be insufferable to know this guy in real life. He is that dude who torpedos every decent conversation the second he opens his blowhole to declare, "Ackshewellly...." He probably doesn't even realize why people are silent and shaking their head looking at him, or discreetly walking away when he begins his rants- he thinks he is schooling them, and doesn't realize that people can't stand his inaccurate and inane bullshit any more.
Not much of a moral case for freedom in your comment.
Got anything beyond ad hominem?
When you make a credible argument of even basic merit, I'll be sure to argue against it. But the made up fantasies you vommitted out above don't require any effort in logic or data. Just mockery.
Ackshuyally, it’s spelled “A-C-K-S-H-U-Y-A-L-L-Y,” not ““A-C-K-S-H-E-W-E-L-L-Y.”
(Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. ????
It’s arguments like this that definitely make is a bit hard for me to be pro-choice. Ugh.
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I read this when it arrived in my mailbox last week. I give high marks to (*checks byline...oh*) ENB for her survey of the data out there. She brings in A LOT of studies. And while she gets into a lot of statistical hot water, at the least, she presents a decent amount of data.
But, here is the problem: You can't science (or Science! (tm)) your way to a moral society.
First of all, ENB- like most journalists- is clearly shopping for data. She serves numerous statistics up suggesting that Pro-Natalist policies don't work. But she is clearly cherrypicking here in an attempt to prove the point she wants. For example:
"None of this has stanched Singapore's plunging fertility rate. In 1990, it was 1.83. In recent years, it has hovered between 1.1 and 1.2."
Notice how she skips over a lot of time, and doesn't try to correlate anything. Because she is trying to make a moral point with statistics. But let's be very clear: Fertility policy has had a drastic effect on Singapore. It started in the 70's when "Population Bomb" acolytes actually introduced numerous anti-fertility policies into action, leading to plunging fertility rates. This included "birth fees", incentivizing abortion and sterilization and massive PR campaigns that more than 2 kids per family meant "less for everyone to go around". Fertility dropped from 3.07 to 1.43- over half. In 1986, realizing the problems they created, Singapore reversed course and began introducing pro-natalist measures. Since then, it has dipped far less, and in fact, since ~2007 when new measures were introduced, it has been slowly creeping up.
My point isn't to advocate for natalist measures, but to point out the peril Reason staff get into when they make these "data-driven" conclusions. ENB doesn't like population-control policies, so she hunts for data that proves population-control doesn't work. But as I note above, it is easy to counter her data with different data. And I think the record in China and Singapore does much to undermine her pragmatic case.
If you start arguing pragmatism for national (or global) policy, you are going to end up with the Erlich crowd- the climate crazies, COVID Nazis, and like-minded arrogant totalitarians- in charge. Those people inhabit every university and they push whatever policy is in fashion for the decade.
Rather than engage in her own brand of statistical pie-throwing, ENB should be making the moral case for freedom. This article shouldn't be 3/4 data. It should be 3/4 logical polemic explaining why these policies are wrong, not suboptimal.
Boy, it will not let me reply to your comment, huh.
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I have a detailed comment to your post, it gives me a “wordpress security error” when I try to post it, but in essence, I noted that in my opinion, it seems that there is data that shows pro-natalist policies don’t have a lot of effect, but anti-natalist policies do. Ie, it’s easier to cause your fertility rates to decline than it is to cause them to increase.
Oh, and if this subject interests you, check out the link to the documentary I posted below.
it seems that there is data that shows pro-natalist policies don’t have a lot of effect, but anti-natalist policies do.
There is also a lot of “both sides” scope creep and definition fudging as well, just like with climate and international trade. Whereby a domestic policy encouraging women to take out loans, go to school, and have a career isn’t considered anti-natalist despite having the specific effect in spades and to the point of foisting loans off on non-reproductive people but offering career women childcare incentives well less than their student loan debt gets labeled as evil, ineffective, patriarchal, pro-breederism even if it aligns perfectly with the (e.g.) 2% growth projections that the education policies bust massively along several dimensions.
So what are teens doing thhese days?
Playing online games on their androids and iPhones?
Any self-respecting teenage gamer has a PC.
If the graphic (gun pointed at baby-bundle carrying stork) a subtle metaphor for abortion?
On the subject of storks (I assume this is an article about storks), the Shoebill Stork sounds like a machine gun when it vocalizes.
We may have to ban these things.
They certainly have the thing that goes up. 🙂
The substance of the research I've seen is that pro-natal policies absolutely work, but that they're virtually always much too small to have the desired effect. In order to get a country like the US back up to the replacement level you'd have to subsidize child rearing to the point where being a full time mother was actually a viable career option, including retirement benefits.
That's because the existing anti-natal policies are already on that scale, of course.
The paper said that, even at that level of subsidy, it was an economically viable approach. But governments seem to regard high levels of immigration from the third world as a more desirable approach.
"But governments seem to regard high levels of immigration from the third world as a more desirable approach."
Governments can tax immigrants.
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Oh, this fucking racist!
The subsidy, however comes at the expense of both the Childless/Childfree and other childbearing couples. No matter which side you're on, it's a shitty diaper deal.
Well, but my social security payments, realistically, are going to be at the expense of other people, too. The difference between me and childless people on SS is that I actually went and had a kid, who will be paying taxes.
While they're complete freeloaders.
There are essentially two causes of the birth dearth, which other causes are just second order to.
1) Birth control severed the biological link between sex and childbearing, and it turns out that we don't actually have all that strong an instinct to bear children in the first place, as opposed to nurturing them once they're born. Nature was relying on us having sex, and then getting us to take care of them.
2) Old age pensions render children into a commons, everybody benefits in their old age, but only people bearing children bear the cost. Such goods are always under-produced.
But, really, point 1 only got us from rapid growth down to replacement. It was the old age pensions that drove it below replacement.
"While they’re complete freeloaders."
Some people who want kids, cannot have kids. And they already feel pretty miserable about it.
Just sayin'
A lot of people feel sorry for Dylan Mulvaney... just not sorry enough to drink Bud Light. Ever seen the Anheuser-Bush executive's letter demanding harsher penalties for its competitor, marijuana?
Motherhood is the job for which all other jobs exist. Yet young women are told that they need to focus on their careers before even thinking about family, told that having babies is bad for the climate, that children are an expensive burden that will sap them of their freedom. Then I talk to the women in my generation, in the middle of their careers and oftentimes they make the stunning observation: when you're old, you're not going to care how many claims you closed, deals you sealed, or promotions you got. You're not even going to remember them. You're just going to remember the time you spent with your family if you were lucky enough to wake up and make a child before the biological clock ticked to 0.
The entire article by ENB is chock full of materialism. It talks about the costs of children, and using money to encourage more of them and how effective that is. When you examine children through a materialist lens, there's no reason to have them. Ultimately, people don't have children because of how it changes the bottom line. They have children because it is one of the most meaningful things you can do. Having children is the closest we can come to touching eternity this side of the grave. We've forgotten this.
"Having children is the closest we can come to touching eternity this side of the grave. We’ve forgotten this."
We don't want children if we're not happy with our environment and think it unsuitable. This works even for rabbits who will eat their young if conditions are not to their liking.
Michael Stivic said the same thing on All in The Family 40 years ago.
Ah, but Michael and Archie both had only one child. So it's a wash of both sewage and salt water, both undrinkable.
I guess it's "materialistic", but real parents in the real world do need to pay the bills that come from having children.
I'm not saying that people don't have to pay the bills. I'm talking about materialism as a worldview. When looking at children, materialists completely ignore metaphysical benefits like love and legacy, because they can't deposit them in a bank account.
People used to have more kids with less resources and in harder times than we live in now. Yet now suddenly children are unaffordable without handouts? Nonsense. A materialist culture that exalts self and denigrates motherhood (or ignores it at best) is much more likely the culprit.
People used to have more kids with less resources and in harder times than we live in now.
A lot of those kids would end up dead or living in poverty. Modern parents feel an obligation to make sure every one of their offspring lives and thrives as an adult, rather than the old model of hoping a few of the horde will do well in life.
^^ This
Interesting coincidence that Ayn Rand made that very same point in 1976. She also mentioned the word "slavery" and promptly replaced Timothy Leary as the person Republicans most wanted dead.
You can either have looter prohibition laws or an economy. No economy, no new teenagers for the DEA to rob and murder. When Lewis Carroll taught Symbolic Logic in the Victorian Era, even 12-year-olds could grasp the implications of real-life disjunctions. Nowadays kids are taught that Team Red is Orange Jesus and the other is Black Satan and the killer weed.
The two most persuasive causes for decline in fertility. To me, at least.
1) Population density. Increasing density is met with decreasing fertility. Works with plants, animals, and humans alike. Taiwan and South Korea are two of the most densely populated countries (territories) and they're also the most infertile.
2) Endocrine disruptors. Micro and nano particles of plastics are in every breath we take. From our clothing, packaging, tires and many other sources. Low sperm counts, birth defects, erectile dysfunction, cancer, miscarriages etc.
1: While that's always something to look at, populations in various areas have been dense for a long time, and again, this treats the problem as a more localized issue, vs a global issue. In my opinion, population density probably follows other effects of urbanization: industrialization, more women in the workforce, etc. Ie, it's not the density alone, it's all the other stuff that comes with it.
2: yes, this is something to look at. The Pthalates problem. Dr. Shanna Swann has done some very interesting work on this.
" it’s not the density alone"
I wouldn't say it's density alone but it seems to be at least good first attempt at an answer. Beats all this hand wringing and misogenistic women bashing.
"density probably follows other effects of urbanization"
Urbanization is a global phenomenon. It's about concentrating people from low density rural areas into high density towns and cities. Density may be a good candidate for a root cause, rather than industrialization and women in the work force. As I say, it works in the plant kingdom, and with other animal species and they aren't industrialized.
"1) Population density."
The United States (96/mi²) has a very low population density, while Canada (11/mi²) is almost empty, and Europe (UK 725, Germany 617, Italy 516, Grance 306) is very densely populated. Yet all have almost the same fertility rate. There doesn't seem to be any corrolation between population density and fertility rate.
"2) Endocrine disruptors."
Endocrine disruptors may impact the ability of a woman to get pregnant, but that wasn't addressed in this article. I don't know if there has been comprehensive studies done on the ratio of women who can't get pregnant to those who can and if that ratio mirrors the fertility rate. Have you seen anything like that?
"The United States (96/mi²) has a very low population density,"
Americans and Canadians overwhelmingly live in towns and cities which have a higher density than the figures you came up with.
"There doesn’t seem to be any corrolation between population density and fertility rate."
Because you haven't taken into account the fact that people tend to live in urban areas. About 80% of Americans are concentrated in urban areas.
That's true of every developed country. Developing countries as well, to a lesser extent.
Find something that is different in the US vs. other countries who are more dense, but have the same fertility rate, or accept the fact that population density isn't corrolated to fertility rate.
For those interested in this topic of falling birthrates, I strongly recommend this documentary (two parts) on the problem the globe is facing.
This demographer has done some excellent work. ENB is pretty much correct here, pro-natalist policies have had little to no effect (historically). He was also one of the first demographers to look at the problem globally. Up until recently, this problem was always looked at locally. Why is Italy/Spain/Portugal/Germany/Japan having falling birthrates? Then a set of theories would be laid out as to why, based on localized data and phenomenon. But he looked at it from a global perspective because this is a global issue. Birthrates are even falling in Africa-- which currently is above replacement level, but is suffering the same phenomenon as the rest of the globe, it's just slightly behind.
He points out one issue that was of significant interest: Unplanned childnessness.
This relates to the subject of childless urban women who are childless by choice. What he discovered was that women... when they have children are having children at about the same rate, but what he discovered while doing this research project is there was a significant number of women who had always planned to have children (and kept hitting 'snooze' on their uterus) and the next thing they knew, it was too late. He then talks to fertility specialists who say quietly that the technology isn't as reliable as the public perception of it is. You can freeze eggs, you can go through these therapies, but the success rate is pretty low.
Again, strongly recommended.
I have two kids. During covid when school was shut down, they went to a daycare. It was $30per kid per day for M-F. Or $300 week/1200 month. Every month for 9months straight. Married filing jointly we were capped on a child care deduction at like $1100 or some shit. I think we paid 14k total (some of the summer they also used the daycare). I am not sure what pro natal incentives the US has. But the tax code is not keeping up with the actual rates people pay. I realize there is also a child deduction but that is woefully inadequate to keep up with what it actually costs.
I would even go so far as to say that the cost is one of the main reasons people don't want lots of kids. The cost to insure, feed and have someone watch them while you work is simply not in people's budgets if you want to do more than live paycheck to paycheck for the vast majority of working parents (where both parents work full time).
"but that is woefully inadequate to keep up with what it actually costs"
But is it your responsibility to pay for someone else's child? I would say no. I think child credits, deductions for child care, and child education credits, are wrong.
These are all pro-natal policies, which apparently don't make a difference in the fertility rate, but are definitely welfare guven to people with kids.
"I would even go so far as to say that the cost is one of the main reasons people don’t want lots of kids."
I would agree with you, but the article laid out a pretty convincing argument for that not being the case. It may just boil down to the fact that, with birth control, people have a lot more control over pregnancy and they, by and large, don't want a lot of kids.
I did my part.
Why is that though? This is the question that rarely gets any serious attention. And with good reason--answering it reveals far too much.
What natalist programs run into are the far louder, overwhelming malthusian fixations the left trumpets.
There are too many people
Humans destroy the Earth
We must scale back
Over and over. In school, on television, in movies, in media, in games. Everywhere.
Want birthrates to pick up? Shut the malthusians down one and for all.
It'll happen quick. There are thousands of women out there with dressed up 'furbabies' who've been convinced that having actual children is bad.
Shut the malthusians up, keep them from media, from politics, from education, and nature will smile upon us all
Life, as Ian Malcolm says, finds a way.
What is baffling is the Malthusian argument against having your own children is followed up by enthusiasm for importing foreign population to make up for the birth deficit influenced by the Malthusian doom talk. It is amazing cognitive dissonance.
But excellent factory labor cost economics.
"Want birthrates to pick up? Shut the malthusians down one and for all."
That won't work. You have to impregnate the now shut down malthusians, at least the females, if you want the birthrates to go up.
45
All these suggestions of endocrine disruptors, the pill, women with full time jobs --- all a joke, since birth rates have been falling far longer than any of those "problems". The only consistent correlation is with the industrial revolution, and the obvious explanation is that as workers need more education, raising children takes more work; and as life expectancy rises, fewer births are needed to support aged ancestors.
There was an article sometime in the last few months on yet another modern crackpot theory, as sensible as all the ones presented here: baby seats! They are expensive, illegal to resell, and take up so much room that having more than two kids requires having a three row minivan or SUV. Regulations now require them for kids up to 8 years old, and they are supposed to be rear-facing up to some crazy age, I forget now. No one can go shopping with so many kids, since there is too little room left for what has been bought, it takes too long to get kids out of and into the seats, and it's illegal child endangerment to leave the kids in a car while running into a dry cleaner's for five minutes.
It makes as much sense as everything else suggested, and is just as modern and illogical.
Look at this graph</a? of US birth rates since 1800: constant decline except for the post-war baby boom.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033027/fertility-rate-us-1800-2020/
This wikipedia article says:
Which fits in perfectly with the lag in social perception of longer lives and not needing as many children.
All these suggestions of endocrine disruptors, the pill, women with full time jobs — all a joke, since birth rates have been falling far longer than any of those “problems”.
The endocrine disruptors: Ie the Pthalates question is not THE reason for falling birthrates. However, it could be a contributing factor. Expensive day care certainly isn't THE cause of declining birthrates, but it might be a contributing factor, especially in the meta across large populations over time. This is why this problem is so vexing, there aren't simple answers.
I agree with you in general and am very skeptical of anyone, scientist, demographer or internet commenter that points to A thing and says, "There, there's the reason wimmin-folk ain't birthin' no kin!"
But I think that to sweep it all off the table and say, "Nothing to see here" is a mistake.
Look at that chart whose link I botched. The trend began long before any of those modern excuses even existed. All those modern excuses are just noise in the long-term signal. Might as well argue that toenail clippings matter in keeping a house clean when it hasn't been vacuumed or mopped in years.
Uh, this house hasn't been mopped in years isn't a valid argument against "Look at all the toenail clippings piling up.", to say nothing of the fact that, per your own citation, the house got mopped 1940-1970. Especially given that no one is really arguing going back to women having 7 kids, 2 of whom survive to adulthood.
The argument that "Fuck it. I lived through a world war and turned out fine. Kids will be largely OK without a car seat." has been replaced with "Men can sit down and shut up because male reproductive rights are a figment of their imagination." isn't refuted by your data.
"isn’t refuted by your data."
The data, one chart of one country over a limited time, is too sparse to refute anything.
"The only consistent correlation is with the industrial revolution"
'Industrial revolution' is a big vague as a cause. I prefer increased population density, which is a precursor to industrialization.
The irony here is that I am old enough to remember when governments were trying to stop prople from having more children because of Overpopulation: the climate change of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Back then, there were predictions of doom, because there were too many people. Now we are hearing predictions of doom because there are too few people. In either case, isn’t it interesting how the solution always appears to be more government regulation and more government spending?
" we are hearing predictions of doom because there are too few people"
It's worse than doom. It'll be the end of Capitalism.
Hah. I was going to say something similar. But remember you have competing goals here: Capitalism is screaming doom that we won't have enough workers to support the labor system and the olds; while Environmentalism is screaming doom that the planet can't sustain the current population as is, nor the resource drain that adding more people will demand.
The joke is on us ... they are both right.
There is nothing accurate about the proposition that "the planet can’t sustain the current population as is, nor the resource drain that adding more people will demand"
That is wrong. It has been demonstrated wrong constantly for the past 50 years, and will be wrong for the next 50.
50 years in the life of a 4 billion old planet is less than the blink of a planetary eye.
"There is nothing accurate about the proposition that the planet can’t sustain the current population as is, nor the resource drain that adding more people will demand”
You have no basis to know this. The fact is the current population isn't being sustained, that's the result of a falling birthrate - a falling population. Falling and sustaining have two different meanings.
"You have no basis to know this."
I in fact do have a basis to know this. I am standing on this earth right now. It is sustained. It is not wasting away.
"The fact is the current population isn’t being sustained, that’s the result of a falling birthrate – a falling population."
Your fact is not a fact, but that won't stop you from your standard practice of confidently asserting shit that isn't so.
For the record: Our population is not falling.
And further, Ms Belle specifically asserted that the "planet cannot sustain the current population as it is". Unless you have some smoking gun that the planet is causing our falling birthrate, your argument, as usual, is just a tired digression.
"Falling and sustaining have two different meanings."
Growing and Falling *also* have two different meanings. And current population projections indicate that population will *grow*, not fall, over the next 50 years or so until we reach around 10.4 Billion circa 2100. At that point it will likely decline until some equilibrium is reached- and this all assumes some other societal or technological change doesn't emerge.
Even more recent and pessimistic views of population trends put 2100 world population at ~9 Billion- far above our current population.
So before you go name dropping scientists and books of decades past, let's pause to note that you were wrong. You said our current population "isn't being sustained". All evidence and projections suggest that it is not only being sustained, but that it will continue to grow and will be sustained at a higher level than today.
"I am standing on this earth right now. "
We're talking about global population trends which are manifested in decades, if not centuries. Where you are standing right now is irrelevant.
Sustain means to last over time. Like a note on a guitar can be sustained, lengthened. You only know if the note has been sustained with the passage of time, not at the instant the note was struck. Metaphor too abstruse? Not getting it? Don't be shy and ask if so.
"And current population projections indicate that population will *grow*, not fall, over the next 50 years or so until we reach around 10.4 Billion circa 2100."
It will grow in Africa. Elsewhere it will fall or stagnate. That's the projections I'm seeing.
"We’re talking about global population trends which are manifested in decades, if not centuries. Where you are standing right now is irrelevant."
No we are talking about the "Current population as it is." I get it- you want to abstract this out to trends measured over decades. You hope it is so abstracted as to give you the rhetorical room necessary to avoid looking foolish. (Spoiler: It didn't work. And you look quite foolish.)
"Sustain means to last over time."
And over time, there is no indication that our "current population as it is" will decrease. In fact, all projections suggest that it will continue growing. When it finally does top out, and begin modestly declining, many many decades from now, there will still me more earthlings than our "current population as it is" today.
"It will grow in Africa. Elsewhere it will fall or stagnate. That’s the projections I’m seeing."
And so it will still grow. And hot damn, this validates my disagreement with Ms Belle, who claimed that "the planet can’t sustain the current population as is".
And again, to be clear, Ms Belle was clear in stating that the issue at hand was whether the *planet* can sustain our current population. So even if you were correct that our population won't be sustained (which only you seem to be claiming), it is incumbent on you to demonstrate that our falling birthrate and subsequent decline below current levels is caused by our planet being unable to environmentally sustain those levels.
Just take the L, mtm.
"Current population as it is.”
Sustain means extended over time. Not referring to the current moment.
" all projections suggest that it will continue growing"
Many countries are below or set to fall below replacement levels of fertility.
"And so it will still grow. And hot damn, this validates my disagreement with Ms Belle, who claimed that “the planet can’t sustain the current population as is”.
Because of environmental stress and resource demand. Not population, per se.
"it is incumbent on you to demonstrate that our falling birthrate and subsequent decline below current levels is caused by our planet being unable to environmentally sustain those levels"
I've already stated that I suspect density and plastics are behind falling birthrate. I haven't encountered anything more persuasive in the comments here or elsewhere.
"Sustain means extended over time. Not referring to the current moment."
Please, oh please, keep this ridiculous parsing. There is no better way to demonstrate the pure bullshit of your ilk. You say shit you don't know about. When it is exposed for the idiocy it is, you double down and try playing semantics games. But no one is fooled, and if you really do want any poor sot to join you in your philosophical dustbin, I'd recommend you stop digging.
For the record, no matter how long your timeframe, the population as it currently is today is 8 Billion people. And in 10 years, there will be more than 8 Billion people. And in 50 years there will be more than 8 Billion people. And all projections are that it will continue to be above 8 billion people. Perhaps that world cannot sustain 10 billion people. Perhaps it cannot sustain 40 Billion people. But there is zero evidence that it cannot support the 8 billion that exist today.
"Please, oh please, keep this ridiculous parsing."
I'm defining, not parsing. Something exists at the current moment. That doesn't mean that it is sustained.
Population growth can't be sustained if fertility rates drop below replacement levels. Total fertility rate in South Korea is about 1.075 according to my sources. That means that population in South Korea will not grow, but decline, as the replacement rate is 2.1.
There are about 51 million South Koreans today. In 2040, there will be 47 million. That's the projections I'm seeing. Many other countries have posted total fertility rates below 2.1, US included. That doesn't spell the future of growth you imagine.
"I’m defining, not parsing. Something exists at the current moment. That doesn’t mean that it is sustained."
And even by your re-definition of the disagreement I had w/ Ms Belle, I have met the standard. I have stated, repeatedly, that all projections are that our population as it is today will be sustained for the foreseeable future. There is no indication that the population will go below 8 Billion any time in the next century or longer. Perhaps a 10 billion person population is unsustainable, but that would be a future population, not the "current population, as it is".
"Population growth can’t be sustained if fertility rates drop below replacement levels."
No shit sherlock. Interestingly, the "current population, as it is" does not have a fertility rate below replacement levels. So it is likely to be sustained. Perhaps when the population exceeds that of the "current population, as it is" the fertility rate will drop below replacement levels and those *future* population levels of 10 or 11 billion people will be unsustainable. Perhaps. Nevertheless, there is no indication that any time in the future an 8 Billion person population will be unsustainable.
"That’s the projections I’m seeing."
Well that's because you are a fanatic who only sees what he wants to see. I can't cure that.
Nevertheless, as you were so keen to point out below, we live on the earth, and the discussion was whether or not the global population- as it is today- can be sustained. World population levels are projected to increase for the next 50 - 60 years despite the lower birthrates of affluent countries.
" have stated, repeatedly, that all projections are that our population as it is today will be sustained for the foreseeable future. "
Do you understand what fertility rates falling below replacement level means, don't you? It means that as people die off, the population will decline. In some countries fertility rates are above replacement level and their population will increase. Other parts like Asia, Europe and the Americas, rates are below and population will decrease. I gave you an example of South Korea to see a world leader in low fertility.
"Nevertheless, there is no indication that any time in the future an 8 Billion person population will be unsustainable. "
A pandemic could break out tomorrow and wipe out half the human race. It probably won't happen, but this sustainability is not rock solid, but a fragile thing that can turn to chaos very quickly with dire results. Black swans don't typically announce their coming with 'indications.' Things change. It's the cruelest law of the universe.
And tons of people still think overpopulation is a major threat.
It may be that overpopulation is the cause and declining fertility is the result. ie overpopulation is a major threat, and something happening now rather some vague time in the future.
It also may be that you don't know what you are talking about.
I know that what goes up must come down.
Be sure to tell that to Voyager 1 and 2 when they make their way back down.
Experiments with rats revealed so much bad stuff about overpopulation in the sixties and seventies that laws were passed to keep anyone from repeating them. Rats are what Big Pharma tests drugs on while buying laws to ban the competition.
They get ya coming and going. Whether population goes up or down, Governments will try to find ways to use their Citizens as work-horses and pawns for "social engineering" at home or warfare abroad.
Well I'm Childrree By Choice--though I do adore other people's children and talk to them with their parents all the time at the store where I work--and I am on the hook for Gummint Skoolz, daycare subsidies, EBT/SNAP, WIC, and Earned Income Tax Credits that I will never use.
And as a Gen Xer, I am resigned to being a loser in the Social Security "Lockbox" Ponzi Scheme and to never really retiring.
Having children for me would mean more misery for me and another life to experience the same Government-inflicted misery or worse.
If fewer children means the collapse of the Welfare State and especially Social Security, I say let it come!
The faster the collapse comes, the faster we can come up with better private, voluntary ways to fight poverty and the travails of old age.
Folks, hike up your big-girls panties, put on your rubbers, and strap yourself down! It gonna be rough in-between time!
"The faster the collapse comes, the faster we can come up with better private, voluntary ways to fight poverty and the travails of old age. "
Before it comes, you've got some thinking to do. Where are you going to invest your surplus so that it brings a profit? Take that promise of future return away, and you're back in the jungle with the beasts of prey and the humidity. With a shrinking population and a shrinking economy, it's going to be hard to find something with growth potential. Maybe there will be a USB drive with an app that will make us all trillionaires but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
"Where are you going to invest your surplus so that it brings a profit?"
This is exactly the zero sum thinking that has plagued you little commies since the start. You and your lot are always spouting off "common sense", clear "truths" that dissipate like smoke in the slightest breeze of introspection.
"Take that promise of future return away, and you’re back in the jungle with the beasts of prey and the humidity."
What absurd hyperbole. For the record, many things other than a "promise of future return" separates us from nature. Build a house. Plant a crop. Buy some food from your friend. Tell a story. Wear clothes...none requires "profit" and all separate me from the Jungle.
"With a shrinking population and a shrinking economy, it’s going to be hard to find something with growth potential."
Our population is not shrinking and will not be shrinking any time in our lifetimes, unless we unlock the secrets of immortality, at which point your population problems are solved.
And even then, it is not a given that modest decreases in population will include a shrinking economy. The global economy has long grown faster than the population, and there is no reason why gains in productivity will not increase the economic output of our workers in the future to offset modest declines in their numbers.
Indeed, Japan- who is at the tip of the spear for demographic "collapse" has had a shrinking population since 2009. And yet, despite losing around 8 Million (6%) of its population, its GDP had grown by around 23%, or $1 Trillion as of 2021 when it was just coming out of the COVID recession.
While there are definitely societal changes accompanying the aging of our population, the last people we should look to for predictions are mtrueman and their perpetually wrong commie population.
"This is exactly the zero sum thinking that has plagued you little commies since the start. "
A capitalist economy is built on the assumption that investments are rewarded with a return. They call it ROI, return on investment, unsurprisingly enough. That's the engine that drives capitalism. Take that away and you're left with a Tesla with a dead battery.
"What absurd hyperbole."
Very astute of you to notice. I appreciate an attentive audience.
"The global economy has long grown faster than the population, and there is no reason why gains in productivity will not increase the economic output of our workers in the future to offset modest declines in their numbers. "
In other words, we'll all get rich buying and selling artificial wombs to each other. Pull the other one.
"Indeed, Japan- who is at the tip of the spear for demographic “collapse” has had a shrinking population since 2009. And yet, despite losing around 8 Million (6%) of its population, its GDP had grown by around 23%,:
Japan is part of what we call a globalized economy. I thought we all hated globalization. Now it's suddenly a beacon of hope for disappearing species?
"That’s the engine that drives capitalism. Take that away and you’re left with a Tesla with a dead battery."
It really isn't the engine that drives capitalism. The engine that drives capitalism is people choosing to spend their money on the things they want to spend it on.
But besides your incorrect characterization, your initial premise- that falling birthrates will mean no more return on investment- is as incorrect as the rest of your commie claptrap.
"In other words, we’ll all get rich buying and selling artificial wombs to each other. Pull the other one."
What's wrong, mtrueman, can't find some obscure personality of the 80s to namedrop?
But I'm going to throw you a bone, since this is the standard commie tactic of saying something that seems to make sense on its face, but falls apart on just the slightest reflection.
As people become more productive, their free time increases. They do things with this free time- work more to produce stuff; go on vacation; buy little cat figurines; start new businesses. So even in an economy where there are no new customers, the economy grows as those customers grow more productive and demand more stuff to fill their free time.
Even if we were to accept your fantasy world where the population is shrinking AND productivity stays constant, leading to a shrinking economy, your notion that there is no ROI is still inaccurate.
This is because a population is dynamic. People are still being born, they are aging, working, retiring and dying. As farmer john kicks the bucket, little Jenny takes his place, investing her time and money to buy new equipment, and plant new seeds. She is now investing some money, and she is now getting a return as the fruits of her work generate a profit.
"Ah hah!" I hear ol mtrueman say, "But with a decreasing population there are less people to buy the grain!"
Jenny will just invest a little less, because she doesn't need to produce as much. She can get a smaller tractor, or use less land. Or maybe farmer Joe down the street also kicks the bucket, and since there are fewer people around, she consolidates the land and produces a little less with the combined amount. Sure, the market has decreased by 1% over a decade, but HER investment has still returned far more.
But this is all unremarkable stuff. Even when economies contract, there are still people who make a return on their investment. The idea that national/global stats like GDP translate directly to every individual only makes sense to commies, I guess.
"Japan is part of what we call a globalized economy. I thought we all hated globalization. Now it’s suddenly a beacon of hope for disappearing species?"
I never said anything about globalization. You asserted that when populations shrink, their economy also shrinks. There are fewer people to produce stuff. There are fewer people to demand stuff.
Even if we posit external demand (global demand of buyers), it still poses problems to your thesis. Even if there are more people buying externally, how is it possible that a decreasing population produces the extra widgets necessary to sell, thus increasing their economy? As soon as you answer that, you realize my point- that population (while important) is not the sole determinant of economy size.
"The engine that drives capitalism is people choosing to spend their money on the things they want to spend it on. "
That's the engine that drives markets, buying and selling. Markets have existed since the Babylonian times. They were not Capitalists. Capitalism is about accumulation and reinvestment - taking your surplus money and investing in the stock market hoping for a greater return in the future.
"What’s wrong, mtrueman, can’t find some obscure personality of the 80s to namedrop? "
I can always find someone of that description. Have anyone in particular in mind? In the mean time, how about Nathanial Gronewold, there's a link to his paper:
"Don't Call it a Crisis: The Natural Explanation Behind Collapsing Birth Rates"
You might be interested, though it's post covid19 rather than 1980s.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354814291_Don't_Call_it_a_Crisis_The_Natural_Explanation_Behind_Collapsing_Birth_Rates
"For ecologists, population dynamics are driven by a
general rule-of-thumb: population growth tends to be faster
when population density is low, and population growth
tends to be slower when population density is high. That’s
how it works for most animals, insects, and even many
species of plants. For the mammal Homo sapiens,
population density is very high almost everywhere.
Therefore, our rate of population growth is slowing, and it
will go slower still if average human population density
continues to increase via the process we call urbanization"
"As people become more productive,"
Lower fertility means an aging population, not a more productive population.
"In 2019, there were 54.1 million people age 65 and older (up from 39.6 million in 2009). The population is projected to reach 80.8 million by 2040 and 94.7 million by 2060. All but a tiny percentage of them live in non-institutional settings, as do more than 61 million people with disabilities. Both populations are growing, and older Americans are one of the fastest-growing demographics in the country.
Since 1900, the percentage of Americans age 65 and older nearly quadrupled (from 4.1% in 1900 to 16% in 2019), and the number increased more than 17 times (from 3.1 million to 54.1 million). The older population itself became increasingly older. In 2019, the 65-74 age group (31.5 million) was more than 14 times larger than in 1900 (2,19 million); the 75-84 group (16 million) was 20 times larger (771,000), and the 85+ group (6.6 million) was more than 53 times larger (122,000). "
The aged eventually can't even look after their own toilet, yet you're expecting them to become 'more productive' in contributing to the economy? Either you're pulling my leg or you just haven't thought this through.
"I never said anything about globalization. "
Again, because you haven't thought this through. Japan sells what it produces around the world, and don't rely on a shrinking market limited to the 4 main islands.
"That’s the engine that drives markets, buying and selling. Markets have existed since the Babylonian times"
Yes, and the engine of capitalism is people participating in free markets- the marketization of all things. That is all it means to say the owners of capital dictate the means of production- they get to freely determine what will be done with their money.
"Capitalism is about accumulation and reinvestment – taking your surplus money and investing in the stock market hoping for a greater return in the future."
Wait, capitalism is about taking your MONEY and putting it in the stock MARKET, you say? In other words, it is about people using their free choice to spend money on the things they want.
Capitalism is literally the theory that those who own the money decide how it will be deployed. It is unfortunate that Marx didn't understand what he was coining, but it is not the first time he was clueless.
"The aged eventually can’t even look after their own toilet, yet you’re expecting them to become ‘more productive’ in contributing to the economy? Either you’re pulling my leg or you just haven’t thought this through."
I know it is very difficult for you to apply abstract numbers to real life, but try to keep up. Some productivity gains will, no doubt, come from aging populations. Your own statistics prove that out. The 65+ group is 4 times larger than 1900. By your logic of an aging population, we would expect to see a less productive population. But it has continued to grow as our population has continued to age.
Take a breath and understand that just because our population is "older" doesn't mean it is the same old people. The 65+ people continue growing older until they die. Their grand children join the work force, with the benefit of all the productivity gains that previous generations created. And those new workers are more productive and, as they age towards retirement, they bestow the economic and technological advances that will make the generation after them more productive.
"Again, because you haven’t thought this through. Japan sells what it produces around the world, and don’t rely on a shrinking market limited to the 4 main islands."
I have thought this through, which is why I asked the question that you blithely ignored.
"Even if there are more people buying externally, how is it possible that a decreasing population produces the extra widgets necessary to sell, thus increasing their economy?"
Regardless of whether demand is increasing in a growing market, how is Japan supposed to supply that demand? They have fewer laborers. And the laborers they have are getting older.
And yet, despite this shrinking workforce- which you insist must be less productive- Japan has not only continued to produce MORE to meet growing demand, it also CONSUMES more. It's exports have grown from around 5 Trillion yen per month to nearly 9 trillion yen last month since 2010. How is this possible with an aging and shrinking population, mtm?
"In other words, it is about people using their free choice to spend money on the things they want."
No, I disagree. It's not about spending money, as people have been spending money for as long as money has existed without being called capitalists. It's about investing money in the hopes of a greater return in the future. And for that you need a growing economy. This is the main concern of the state, which is why you are seeing all this natalist hand wringing. A shrinking market means a shrinking economy, hence the end of capitalism, robot wombs notwithstanding.
You haven't read the PDF I linked to evidently. There is no need to panic, a shrinking fertility rate is natural consequence of recent demographic trends. Our economic system will take a hit, but we can adapt. We have to adapt or die.
"they bestow the economic and technological advances that will make the generation after them more productive. "
Give me that old time religion!
"“Even if there are more people buying externally, how is it possible that a decreasing population produces the extra widgets necessary to sell, thus increasing their economy?”
It's not sustainable, is it? By sustainable, I mean the usual meaning of the word, capable of being extended over time. A shrinking labor force will sooner or later loose the capacity to care for a growing non producing population of aging and ailing people. They will introduce robots and immigrants into the equation, but these are stop gap measures and may not be enough to do the trick.
"It’s not about spending money, as people have been spending money for as long as money has existed without being called capitalists. "
I see, so capitalism didn't exist until someone named it capitalism? That seems obtuse, even for you.
"It’s about investing money in the hopes of a greater return in the future. And for that you need a growing economy."
There is nothing about capitalism that requires greater return in the future. Merely that people be allowed to allocate their own capital as they see fit.
And as I have demonstrated to you numerous times now, you do not need to have a growing economy for people- for everyone in the population- to continuously see a return on their investment.
I don't know how else I can explain it to you, mtm. This is legit basic math. I know that this is difficult for commies with their inability to understand the theory of marginal value, but you strike me as at least among the most clever of them. You can do this.
When your population isn't static (i.e. people are being born, entering the workforce, and dying) the economy doesn't have to grow for every single person in that workforce to be able to invest and get a return on their investment. Naturally every person is not guaranteed to have positive ROI at all times. And it is more difficult in a stagnant economy. But it is completely, mathematically possible.
"A shrinking market means a shrinking economy, hence the end of capitalism, robot wombs notwithstanding."
Right, keep burning that torch, mtrueman. The commies were sure that the end of capitalism was nigh for a century- for various reasons. Worker revolutions. Growing wealth. Sinking wealth. They were all portents of doom. But now it is a shrinking fertility rate, SURE.
If a sinking fertility rate is bad for capitalism, it is bad for any system by which you allocate the means of production.
"It’s not sustainable, is it? By sustainable, I mean the usual meaning of the word, capable of being extended over time."
Oh, so as long as we accept your premise and ignore actual evidence, we would be in agreement. A pity that reality is a thing.
You cannot explain why fewer, older people TODAY are able to produce more and grow their economy in Japan. So you cannot explain why it is or is not sustainable. Your argument merely comes down to your inability to imagine anything more dynamic than a simple machine. *shrug*.
"You cannot explain why fewer, older people TODAY are able to produce more and grow their economy in Japan."
I'm not sure really, but if I were to bet, I imagine this production of yours exists on paper and has little or no relation to the physical world. Jack's magic beans also grew, on paper in a book. In reality it is just a story.
You should be more skeptical of economists and their tools. The Chinese once were claiming some outlandish rate of growth for their economy. Some scientists, not economists, discovered that changes in urban luminosity, from satellite photos, showed a correlation between economic growth and changes in brightness. Turns out the Chinese figures on paper were twice what the physical evidence revealed.
As a fellow Gen Xer, I am often cynical, but more optimistic than you, I guess. You will get your social security, even if that means waiting a few extra years until you can draw it. Politicians will continue this practice of pushing up the retirement date in order to keep the program solvent- in fact they will very likely soon pass legislation that pegs it to some combo of economic and demographic indicators.
"Having children for me would mean more misery for me and another life to experience the same Government-inflicted misery or worse."
And this is a very sad outlook on life. To each their own, but to me, children have brought unimagined expenditures of money, effort and pain. But they have never brought me misery. Understanding that dichotomy is one of the secrets to overcoming our generational cynicism.
The other side is that, even if solvent, the Social Security will be paid out in worthless currency, as is growing to be the case as we speak.
I would gladly give up everything I’ve paid in if I just never saw the acronym F.I.C.A. on a paystub again. Even an S&P Index Fund would do better than the S.S. “lockbox” and with growth stocks could possibly offset what I’ve lost.
Please don’t misunderstand. It’s not that children as such would give me misery, but seeing them suffer the misery the world can inflict would give me misery. And an irrational, oppressive, war-torn, bankrupt world is full of misery and sadly that misery will take a massive effort to end.
Until things get much better, somebody else can have my biological niche and I’ll chip in my Bachelor’s Mite to make the world better for us all.
"The other side is that, even if solvent, the Social Security will be paid out in worthless currency, as is growing to be the case as we speak."
The pressures that will make SS-dollars worthless will make your S&P Index Fund Dollars just as valuable. SS Payouts are pegged to inflation (more or less), and again the mechanism by which they will keep the program solvent is not inflation (which will happen regardless) but by pushing off the date you can retire.
Again, I don't like SS. While I want it gone, I'd grudgingly settle on a ~5% tax for a "Safety net", means tested program, with the other ~12% mandated to be invested privately. As ENB notes above, the solution to an aging population isn't more population, it is changing these programs.
Making the elderly poorer isn't really the cure for the economy. Making the healthy elderly work longer for their benefits may be. However, there are a lot of unhealthy elderly, mainly due to lifestyle choices that the food industry in developed countries encourage (e.g un-necessary sugar in everything).
Even the least educated can see that the population graph is nearly vertical while the Earth surface remains static. The second derivative only changed sign a decade after Comstockists quit banning The Pill. The drop in steepness is barely visible half a century later, during which total population more than doubled. At 1972 rates, when women voted Libertarian, population would be nearly 11 billion today. Plug 1.02 into an Excel chart as the rate of increase and see the race suicide Goo-Oh-Pee Christianofascists evade.
I couldn't help but remember that old National Lampoon cover (https://theposterdepot.com/products/zsgnnationlampooncovermn7051101) and think "Buy this magazine or we'll shoot this stork."
I thought it was a baby seal they origjnally used. I recall that line from Robin Williams' Used Cars.
Kurt Russell, Hollywood's only Libertarian besides Goldie Hawn, did "Used Cars." Goldie's movie "Dollars" opens with a huge, golden Sign of the Dollar hanging in mid-air--straight out of Atlas Shrugged. It ends with a quart of pure LSD and was segued by the highly successful Libertarian Party Platform of 1972. Robin Williams did Democratic People's State Movies like Jane Fonda and Alan Alda.
My mistake. Robin Williams did Cadillac Man, though I won't claim the LP is apropos of anything related to this.
Just no.
The author, doubtless a favorite on RT, makes the typical totalitarian false assumption that ever increasing population is a GOOD thing. It isn't. Lower population means a higher standard of living.
Supply and demand can't be fooled. We don't need more people, what we need is BETTER people. If people aren't having kids, it's because our society doesn't value kids. Give it a generation of decline, and those who DO have kids will be having lots of kids - because they came from a family that valued their kids and passed those values along.
We are not the world's lifeboat for countries and societies making poor decisions. We don't want their castoffs.
Just say no.
"Lower population means a higher standard of living."
There is no evidence that this is the case. Indeed, the years of continued population growth along with ever increasing standards of living disproves this notion, if not proving the exact opposite.
Good point. But God's Own Prohibitionists have for a century been exporting the policies that caused the Panic of 1907 and Crashes of 1929 and 2008. Countries that elect looter politicians the GOP likes crash and burn just like the ones that elect communists. Either way, waves of starving refugees migrate northward, NOT into Nicaragua, Venezuela or El Salvador. The House is now an asylum for mystical bigots struggling to deny asylum to the victims of the policies they force us to pay for and export.
It's just an end run to say that we need unlimited immigration. Plain and simple.
"we need unlimited immigration."
Unlimited? The world is a big place, but not that big. We'll be lucky to get a fraction of what we need.
Well, that's one way to end gun violence. Make a population that's old and crotchety instead of young, dumb, and full of come. No, really, the median age of countries is a fairly accurate predictor of violence and homicides. A country whose population is closer to the boys stranded in The Lord of the Flies looks more like the book than it does modern day Japan.
Besides, that's what all the policies we've put in place were intended to do. People used to have lots of children so at least one or two would survive long enough to care for their parents should they live so long. With So-so Security and the rest of the welfare state, those children simply aren't needed.
I know, everyone only wants to ensure their kids have it better than they did but that still looks to be as much a cave-man retirement account as anything else.
Read this article or we’ll kill this stork
Good one. I subscribed to N. Lampoon in college, before the LP and Reason shone Onward Through the Fog.
“Other evidence casts doubt on economic explanations for people having fewer kids.”
Your “other evidence” is, shall we say, interesting. The most likely explanation is economics. It generally is. And Reason Magazine has generally avoided the problem of stagnant wages over the past half-century — sometimes doing so by cherry picking a more desirable time frame, along with addressing an inequality gap that has now reached unstable levels. The trend line has been interrupted by some ups and downs but by the half-century mark we’re at where we’re at.
"The most likely explanation is economics."
To quote Thomas Sowell:
"Economics is the study of the use of scarce resources which have alternative uses. "
Children are raised, not used, and they are not scarce resources. We can have as many as we want, and if anything, traditionally at least, having too many is more of a problem than too few.
Economics won't help. Try sociology, anthropology and other economics cousins in the humanities. Try medicine and environmental science too while you're at it.
Granted the state wants population growth for economic reasons, to expand markets, the labor pool, the stock market, you name it. Controlling and guiding this growth - that's the reason for being. Look at the statist techno fixes offered in article. Artificial wombs for god's sake. Just another way for the state to extract wealth from us schlubs, rather than getting down to root causes.
No, I'll stick to economics, which is not divorced from morality. The moral and the monetary are not separate spheres. Financial stability is a moral consideration when deciding to have children. Will your mortgage payment become an iffy proposition? Your home is, after all, where your child will live, or not, if you can't make your payment.
"I’ll stick to economics,"
Good luck with that. Economies differ around the world but lower fertility rates are almost everywhere. Countries like Japan and South Korea are financially stable as anywhere and they lead the way in lower fertility rates.
I tell you economics is about buying and selling things. As a moralists you know you don't buy and sell babies. Try another social science if that's what you feel inclined to, sociology I hear is easy to get into.
And by the way, I never got into storks. Give me herons or even egrets any time. I liked the story in the RFK jr article about the emu, a bird at least as big as an ostrich, that had bonded to R and let him give it tummy rubs etc. It would attack and bite everyone else, including his wife (Cheryl from curb your enthusiasm) who rejoiced when the emu was eaten by the lion. But that's another story.
Economics gets my vote for the major cause.
When the house with the white picket fence costs $900,000, it’s going to put a damper on those Heritage Foundation family values.
That all depends. If they feel anxiety over their ability to pay for shelter, then their fertility rate will feel the pinch. If they are optimistic and confident about their ability to provide for their families, then an expensive home, car, mink coat etc shouldn't be an obstacle to raising a family.
Well, then, maybe you are not talking about anxiety after all.
I would say it's 3 things at least
Decay of the Family
Horror of lousy lousy education
THe fact that Feds are approaching the taking of 50% of GDP
Take education, I KNOW this is true
Technological society leads to increasing numbers of people who cannot adapt to the inhuman rhythm of modern life with its emphasis on specialization. A class of people is growing up who are unexploitable because they are not worth employing even for the minimum wage. Technological progress makes whole categories of people useless without making it possible to support them with the wealth produced by the progress.
Jacques Ellul
Your “other evidence” is, shall we say, interesting. The most likely explanation is economics.
No. It's not.
It's what's taught about the economics of having children.
Two people can live for not much more than one.
And three for not much more than that.
Yet people are taught, right from the get go about the huge expense that children are. To individuals, and to the world.
And it's just not true.
So why is it taught?
You're using upper middle class math. Yes, if you've secured shelter, a means of food acquisition, and are reasonably healthy then yes, I agree, consolidation of resources and division of labor efficiencies largely mean each additional person comes at less than the unit cost of a single individual. That math changes when you don't have those securities and babies are expensive. They get sick more often, they don't help divide labor - in fact they require labor given they can't even take care of themselves, and they are a constant drain on resources until they achieve some sort of ability for self care which can take years.
Historically places had high fertility rates because they also had high death rates with a disproportionate fraction of those being younger people. When a country has a life expectancy of, let's say, under 40 it doesn't mean that people can't live much longer but it may well mean that if you survive to 35 then you greatly increase your odds of reaching 60. In that instance having many children makes sense economically since you'll likely need someone to help you out as your abilities wane whether they be children or grandchildren.
In today's world where government entitlements exist to keep you ticking and economically active the individuals need for kids as a 401k simply doesn't exist. In short the nanny state, in it's attempt to push parents aside "for the children", has done the opposite and made children economically unnecessary for adults.
The Gee Oh Pee needs kids for the Dee Eee Aaa to shoot to justify their Pee Aaa Yyy. A War on Teens needs babies to grow into warm bodies to keep up the numbers.
Today's Hungary, which is mentioned briefly and dismissively in this writing, introduced measures to slow the declining birth-rate. Of course, they can not do much to alter the prevailing Zeitgeist, but the modest economic measures are showing some results. Richer countries could do even more along this line. Voters should consider this at the polls.
Hungary has no obstructionist 13th Amendment either...
Maybe time to start making more arepas, right?
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This is an important topic, but I think this article falls short in addressing it.
First off, very little mention is made of Hungary which is currently the example many pro-natalism folks are looking to the most in how to promote births. I'm not sure if their policies are too new to analyze the effect, or if the evidence just doesn't line up with the author's conclusions (I'm honestly not sure), but it would have been good to address.
Secondly, Elizabeth didn't make any mention of how effective or ineffective anti-natalist policies from the state can be. This great article in First Things discusses all the anti-natalist policies in South Korea that seem to have been devastatingly effective:
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2023/05/anti-natal-engineering
A tried and true libertarian perspective is to show how heavy-handed government policies got us into ____ problem in the first place. That take is sorely missing in this article.
"This great article in First Things discusses all the anti-natalist policies in South Korea that seem to have been devastatingly effective:"
It doesn't focus on all the anti-natalist policies. It gloms onto birth control and women's freedom to control their sexuality and ignores more important factors.
in 1960 South Korean urbanization was 28% according to my sources. In 2021 it was 81%. In terms of population density, South Korea is high up there with Taiwan and Netherlands, with about 500 people per sq km. Outliers like Macau and Monaco have about 20,000 and also low fertility rates. Ecologists call the connection between population size and density "density dependence," As population of living things increases, the ability of diseases, for example, to limit the growth also increases. Works with animals, insects, plants and humans. Today in South Korea, stress and anxiety and plastics pollution seem the limiting factors that are depressing fertility rates. Humans aren't built to thrive in tightly packed cities.
ENB ignores 2007 prohibitionist events the way conservatives struggle to cast doubt on 1929 prohibition detonations--by avoiding graphs. George Waffen Bush gloated as FATF amd MONEYVAL minions exploited terrorist reprisals for more money looting (the antonym of laundering) and asset forfeiture grabs. His May 8 2007 alphabet EO was exactly that. It pushed foreign governments toward suicide the way Hoover and the League did in 1929. Real estate was targeted in June; subprime derivatives popped in June as Red China joined FATF, then Russia. Califonia mortgages tanked as drug agents grabbed homes; the looting spread to South America. England suffered bank runs as a German TV special shed light on Nazi Billionaires in September. Merril Lynch mortgages were strung up in October, followed by Citigroup as Liliana Ayalde packed to exterminate Paraguay's elected government. The spaghetti hit the fan harder all through 2008 and thoughtful women chose not to add starving babies to the problems. So... coincidence? normal business cycle?
nice
hlo
Don't panic is close to the answer. Stop controlling by fear. Fear media. Fear govt. Frankly I'm amazed wherever I hear of anyone having a kid given how much doom and gloom they happily spread because they saw it somewhere.
A great article but reminds me of the wonderful Heather MacDonald, who can’t really see that this is essentially a religious question. Our Founders placed family at the top of all priorities. The protection of marriage, of parental responsibility for education, the government’s necessity of discouraging ALL sexual immorality.
Brandon Dabbling’s 2022 book on the subject puts it this way : ” the American Founders placed marriage as the cornerstone of republican liberty. The Founders’ vision of marriage relied on a liberalized form of marital unity that honored human equality, rights, and the beauty of intimate marital love. This vision of marriage remained largely healthy in the culture until the Progressive Era and persisted in law until the 1960s. ”
Sorry, but it gets down to right and wrong and not ‘policy’
“Sorry, but it gets down to right and wrong and not ‘policy’”
Right and wrong according to who? You believe marriage is a good thing. But it’s actually just a thing, neither inherently good nor inherently bad. You think “government’s necessity of discouraging ALL sexual immorality” is good, but it’s an appeal to authoritarianism (which is a bad thing).
“Sexual immorality” is such a vague phrase it’s meaningless. What is “sexually immoral”? Premarital sex? Gay sex? Married swingers? Casual sex between friends? Sex for pleasure, not procreation?
Outside of the idea that what consenting adults choose to do sexually is, at worst, morally neutral, what comprises “sexual immorality” in your definition?
“The Founders’ vision of marriage relied on a liberalized form of marital unity that honored human equality, rights, and the beauty of intimate marital love.”
Given the acceptability of men (but not women) having sex outside their marriages (especially with slaves, which doesn’t really count because they didn’t count), the widespread exclusion of women from business, commerce, and wage-earning, the legal subordination of a wife to their husband, and many other cultural and legal norms of the Founding age, the guy who said that clearly either didn’t do his homework or had a conclusion he was determined to reach and the facts be damned.
Family is very important. But family isn’t limited to heterosexual people who got married, had biological children, and remained married until death. Trying to pretend that such a marriage is somehow better, more moral, or more valid than the various versions of blended and found families that exist today plainly isn’t justified.
The Founders vision of marriage was a socialist bribe to get people to do it. Get married, avoid the lawyer costs, protect your property from the govt for your heirs. Don't pay bachelor tax. Have kids because it's free labor. And that's the whole of it.
I suppose life is easy when you sweep the problems with the Founders under a rug of religion. As long as it's your religion that is.
are the facts about marriage NOT allowed
“Over a million children experience the divorce of their parents each year in the United States.” (Sullins, 19)
One quarter of today’s young adults are grown children of divorce. (Marquardt, “Shape of Families,” 66)
“Half of all children born into married families today will undergo the divorce of their parents.” (Sullins, 19; from Furstenberg, 660)
“Less than half [of] the children in the United States today will grow up in a household with continuously married parents.” (Wasserman, 56)
More than one divorce: “10 percent of all children born into married households will witness the divorce of their parents two or more times.” (Sullins, 19)
RESULT -- among others
Essentially all of the decline in fertility since 2001 can be explained by changes in the marital composition of the population. Married, single, and divorced women are all about as likely, controlling for age and marital status, to have kids now as they were in 2001. But today, a smaller proportion of women are married during those peak-fertility years.
Since 2008, about half of the decline in fertility can be attributed to changes in marital composition. In other words, even if we’d had the age-and-status-chained changes in birth rates that we have actually experienced if people had just continued to get and stay married at about the rates they did in 2008, American Community Survey-measured 2016 total fertility would have been 2.0 lifetime-births per women, instead of 1.85. That’s a difference of 0.15 births per woman, or, put another way, that’s about equivalent to a very big, expensive, and successful pro-natal policy campaign.
That is to say, a ballpark estimate of the effectiveness of pro-natal policy incentives suggests it would cost about $100 to $500 billion every year for the U.S. government to offset the last 8 years or so of changes in marriage patterns.
On the other hand, this suggests a straightforward way to boost births: find a cheap way to boost marriage.
TAKEAWAY
a straightforward way to boost births: find a cheap way to boost marriage.
"Essentially all of the decline in fertility since 2001 can be explained by changes in the marital composition of the population."
That is a ridiculously broad, sweeping, and unsupportable generalization. The only way you can discount other factors and claim only kne matters is if you want to arrive at that conclusion from the beginning.
Marriage just isn't that important as a societal factor. It's never been found to have such a foundational and fundamental role in demographic changes by anyone who wasn't already looking to reach that conclusion.
As if a broad and sweeping statement can't be true. 2 + 2 = 4, always and in all cases.
Nelson, at any rate you contradict yourself and show your true colors.
Nearly a hundred years of the supposed “legacy of slavery” found most black children [78%] being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent [66%].
You are reversing cause and effect. Marriage doesn't cause children; the desire for children causes people to seek marriage.
Hmmm, and the desire for money causes people to seek jobs? Rather Loooooow-minded to put teachers, police, and nurses in the cash-sniffing category.
So, Elizabeth doesn't care about morality.And thinks abortion is fine but promoting families and children isn't.
I stopped at "at the expense of individual choice in relationships"
Not marriage, relationships. Not babies but already-born individuals.
Choice? Does Elizabeth ----- has Elizabeth --- ever helpded a pregnant woman have the baby that everybody else wants destroyed?
I will move on to another article.
I assume your solution is to make birth control illegal? Good luck with that.
You say that as if this couldn't be about rational matters and right and wrong. I would make it illegal, and the illegality itself would make some people stop and think. Worked with slavery
So the 2026 deomgraphic cliff that all the colleges are scared about had nothing to do with government? The demographers generally say that is the only real cause , the government. So I can't take the article seriously. You are like the arsonist discussing fire safety.
The family was doing much better UNTIL government stepped in.
The Black Family is paradigmatic
Nearly a hundred years of the supposed “legacy of slavery” found most black children [78%] being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent [66%].
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