Satan Clubs Should Be Allowed in Schools
“After School Satan Clubs” cause no direct harm—they merely challenge the relationship between religious institutions and public schools.

On March 31, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed suit against Pennsylvania's Saucon Valley School District after it dismantled the "After School Satan Club," an after-school program sponsored by the Satanic Temple with chapters across the country, allegeding the club failed to communicate that it was not formally sponsored by the district. The ACLU argues that the removal was actually motivated by the hundreds of angry messages the district received from local parents and the general public.
Saucon Valley is not the only American community bedeviled by Satan clubs. Similar clubs in Colorado, Ohio, Virginia, California, and New York have all generated controversy. The primary concern, as one Pennsylvania parent put it, is that "Satan is here to kill and destroy." Other parents have asserted that the United States is "one nation under God" and that to deny Satan a place in public schools is therefore a necessary and prudent measure. The Napa Legal Institute's Frank DeVito even used Satan clubs to justify restoring the pre-World War II tradition of blasphemy laws.
After School Satan Clubs (and most modern Satanists) do not literally worship Satan. Satan clubs espouse "free inquiry and rationalism," and "[do] not believe in introducing religion into public schools and will only open a club if other religious groups are operating on campus." The Satanic Temple openly rejects the supernatural, using Satan's name and image for shock value.
But even if Satan Clubs were actually worshiping Satan, there's little that can (or should) be done about them. A defense of American pluralism requires a defense of, or at least apathy toward, Satanism.
After School Satan Clubs embrace religious competition. Being secular humanists, they have taken on the role that Thomas Paine and the deists played in the late 1790s—they challenge religious orthodoxy and attempt to goad both public and ecclesiastical institutions into responding to them. This role was also played by the transcendentalists of the mid-19th century and the radical atheists of the 1920s. If public institutions respond to their challenges with the force of law, the Satanists will rightly cry foul.
When Satan clubs are banned or otherwise restricted, communities give the clubs' organizers exactly what they want—a framework for removing all religious organizations and institutions from public schools. In 2004, the Supreme Court ruled in Good News Club vs. Milford Central School that public schools, acting as a "limited public forum[s]" outside of school hours, cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.
Religion, in this context, applies not only to belief, but to non-belief as well. The Supreme Court has repeatedly treated atheism as a religion for legal purposes, meaning that atheists are still protected by the Free Exercise Clause. In other words, public schools can't approve a Christian organization without approving a Satan club too. However, school districts don't have the best track record of pluralism. Instead of allowing controversial student organizations to use school facilities, many districts choose to end all student organizations.
For instance, back in 2011, a school district in Texas chose to shut down all student organizations instead of allowing a Gay-Straight Alliance club. School districts in Georgia and Utah attempted to do the same. Religious groups may suffer a similar fate. Public schools can either be public forums for everyone or they can be forums for no one.
Rather than removing Satan clubs from public schools, some Christians are using alternative, pluralism-friendly methods to respond to Satanists. A collection of churches in eastern Texas hosted a prayer circle in front of a Satanic Temple event. Child Evangelism Fellowship, which operates nearly 3,500 "Good News Club" chapters in schools around the United States, has adopted a nonaggression policy toward after school Satan Clubs—it neither engages nor opposes them. A few parents in California even recanted their opposition toward Satan clubs after finding out the organizations did not literally worship Satan.
In any case, the American pluralist tradition has always left the door open for dissidents and provocateurs, provided that they do not violate any constitutional laws or cause great harm. If we value pluralism at all, we cannot simply throw organizations that merely offend us out of the public square—even if we consider them the personification of evil itself.
After School Satan Clubs cause no direct harm—they merely challenge the relationship between religious (especially Christian) institutions and public schools. Instead of trying to throw Satan clubs off campus, and therefore falling into a legal trap, school districts should leave the Satan clubs alone and defend their right to exist when offended parties demand their removal. The mere mention of Satan should not be enough to cause us to abandon all pluralistic ideals—the devil is in the details.
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So should Nazi and KKK clubs.
In principle I agree, but as we both know that would result in outrage over racism and "white supremacy" and such "clubs" would never see the light of day.
Satanism however is inherently anti Christian, so points for opposing those horrible oppressors.
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Just a matter of time before the wheel of time again lands on Jews are bad.
There never has been or ever will be a civilized satanic culture.
I say let all groups exist and speak freely about everything as long as everything can be discussed and lying is criminalized.
There’s no rational reason to communicate a lie.
How about magic, which a magician once defined to me as “the art of letting people see only what you want them to see”?
Would magic be considered lying?
Would Penn Jillette & Teller have to wear magic wands with glittery stars on them in the death camp?
Would Teller also have to wear a black and yellow star, since he’s half-Jewish and “asocial” during the magic show?
Would you force them to do their act in front of inmates about to be sent to the gas chambers?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Is that what the government is doing, magic tricks?
Having difficulty with the concept of entertainment are you?
So who decides which lies are entertainment and which lies are verboten? You? Perhaps with the help of Herr Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi Propaganda Minister of The Wickedly Great One, the Joseph Goebbels who evangelized about "The Big Lie"?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
The concept of recognizing entertainment really has you struggling.
Fuck you’re stupid.
Nazism is as entertaining as a syringe full of meth. Not my kind of fun.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
I'm pretty sure that Penn & Teller have never made any claim to supernatural powers. They tell you right up front that they're going to trick you; the fun is watching them do so skillfully. The same is true for most stage magicians. There's even a tradition of performers such as Harry Houdini and the Great Randi actively working to expose and debunk supernatural hoaxers.
You are correct about magic including Penn & Teller's only being about entertainment.
You were also correct about Harry Houdini and James "The Amazing" Randi. (I say "were" because they are sadly both dead. Randi died in 2020.). Penn & Teller's fantastic Showtime series Penn &Teller: Bullshit also debunks woo and flim-flammery.
But Herr Misek has stated in categorical terms that he wants to ban all lying (which he thinks includes asserting that The Holocaust was real) and punish people for doing so!
And when I point to things like swapping lies in a fishing boat, acting on stage and screen, liar's contests, and magic shows, he moves the goal-posts and tries to weasel away from his position. Talk about lying!
I would say anywhere there is rational thought and independence is civilized...which clearly leaves out your Aryan Pure Superman Volkischstaadt which chased out, imprisoned and murdered every great author, artist, and scientist in Germany and every land it touched.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Hahaha. You don’t demonstrate rational thought.
Every time I challenge you or anyone else to prove your claims that I either “hate” Jews or am a “Nazi”, you can’t. That’s not me denying anything. That’s you not being able to prove your claims. Lying.
I do hate lying and corruption. Whoever does it. Identifying those who lie and are corrupt isn’t hatred it’s the beginning of justice.
Nobody has refuted anything I’ve said that identifies the overwhelming magnitude of lying, corruption and crimes against humanity committed by and for Jews. Even though you can’t refute it, not only do you simply deny it, you claim that the mere identification of wrongdoing done by Jews is hateful, antisemitism is your popular term. You use it like a phoney shield of some kind of “diplomatic immunity”
I DON’T RECOGNIZE THAT PHONEY SHIELD!
I’ll keep stating the facts that you can’t refute, identifying lies and liars and defying your repeated failed attempts to coerce me or anyone else to be silent.
I recognize that you have only two choices when I make statements that offend you, refute them or observe in impotent outrage.
I’m pleased with these optics. You always demonstrate your choice.
Your tired lies have been exposed over and over. Your claims to the contrary merely demonstrate your tenuous contact with reality.
Prove your claim or join your ilk of liars.
Every time I challenge you or anyone else to prove your claims that I either “hate” Jews or am a “Nazi”, you can’t.
Followed by:
Nobody has refuted anything I’ve said that identifies the overwhelming magnitude of lying, corruption and crimes against humanity committed by and for Jews.
So first you deny hating Jews, then you assert that "lying, corruption, and crimes against humanity" are done "by and for Jews.". Not individual Jews, but Jews as a whole, collectively, for all time, past, present, and future.
Sooooo...since you don't hate Jews, does that mean you condone and love "lies, corruption, and crimes against humanity"? Which is it, Herr Misek? Does Aryan Pure Superman "Poly-Logic" allow both?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
You really are struggling with the concept of hating the behaviour, not the person.
Fuck you’re stupid.
I've seen how "hate the sin, love the sinner" actually works regarding Christianity's and Christendom's historic treatment of LGBTQ individuals.
I seriously doubt that hating the imputed behavior of Jews and yet supposedly not hating Jews works any differently.
I'm also not so stupid that I go without a raincoat while you drop trow in the Comments either.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
If that’s your sincere perspective, that “hate the sin, love the sinner” is bullshit, then you have demonstrated for everyone to recognize that YOU, not me, hate people, not just their behaviour.
But we all knew that already.
Your dysfunctional feelings are your responsibility alone and have nothing to do with logic, science or anyone else.
That wheel just landed below you.
Satan is part of Christianity.
That's why actual Devil worship has never really been a thing, aside from the occasional wackjob. Worshiping a literal Satan means that you first have to accept Christian theology, and then deliberately pick the losing side.
As the article points out the modern Satan clubs promote "free inquiry and rationalism" something that is still in-line with many Christian sects. It not the idea it's the name.
> After School Satan Clubs (and most modern Satanists) do not literally worship Satan. Satan clubs espouse "free inquiry and rationalism," and "[do] not believe in introducing religion into public schools and will only open a club if other religious groups are operating on campus."
Like pro-trans orgs. Right?
Maybe they just want to wear ASS CLUB T-shirts at school.
Ooh! How about ‘Pro Ana’ clubs that encourage the anorexic lifestyle?
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There is a world of difference between "allowing" something and sponsoring it.
If people want to have a club the administration disagrees with then they should be free to do so. That doesn't mean the institution is required to recognize it, provide space, or fund it.
That's lovely if it's a private school. A "public" (aka "government") school funded with tax dollars? They have to allow all comers, or none at all.
None at all sounds like a good plan.
No chess club! Gotta love what people are willing to shoot in the name of spite.
No spite. But if the (false/mandated) choice is everything goes or nothing goes, I side with no clubs.
Can someone start an after school Puritan's club that hangs people who consort with the devil?
Sure. And the first time they actually hang someone, they can be arrested and prosecuted for murder.
Would be way less gay than a Satan club
How so? It's kinda hard to have a club of any sexual orientation if everyone's exhausted or dead from hunger... as your buddy Putin can attest from knowledge of Joseph Stalin, a cult club making a comeback under his regime.
The lack of cross-burnings and pogroms by Satanists does make the analogy somewhat break down.
It's well known that the US was founded on Satanic principles.
It’s well known that the US was founded on
Satanicracist principles.See the 11SEP1876 Meridien Daily Republican front-page exposé of Tilden's Dishonesty and Perjury, Campaign Lies and Slanders, His Satanic Majesty! This is viewable free on Google News Archives. Today's looter parties are exactly the same as they were in 1876!
The actual Western definition of Satanism is far older than the teenage-style rebellion invented by Anton La Vey and his gang of mad-at-dad Larpers, or by Aleister Crowley's sex cult.
It's got zero to do with a libertine "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" maxim, and everything to do with doing actual evil.
The popular cultural idea that Satan is a rebel angel, isn't actually found in the bible or older church doctrine. It gained the most traction in the 1660's with the release of John Milton's popular epic, Paradise Lost.
The popular cultural idea that Satan is a rebel angel, isn’t actually found in the bible or older church doctrine. It gained the most traction in the 1660’s with the release of John Milton’s popular epic, Paradise Lost.
Well, there is this in Revelations Ch 12:
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
But even here, as you say, he was not described as a rebel, and further, Revelations in inconsistent with Zechariah and Job, where Satan appears as a kind of prosecuting angel with a sideline in entrapment.
I note that there's no textual evidence at all to support the idea that Satan and the Serpent in Eden were the same, and good reason to suppose otherwise (understanding that this is like arguing canon in Tolkien...)
The Satanic Temple is atheistic and doesn't believe Satan or any other deity exists.
Can you point to any "actual Western...Satanism" being practiced outside of the two goth cults you named?
All the instances I'm familiar with are related to the Salem Witch fiasco or similar where the Church used accusations of Satan-worship as a cudgel against people it didn't like rather than any real, organized faith.
Don't you have child porn to jerk off to?
He must multitask.
These people take themselves as seriously as Flat Earthers.
I think there has to be a school that won't allow the creation of a flat earth club.
It would be more inclusive if Schools taught flat-earth theory.
Other ways of knowing.
*drops microphone*
Sure. Why not. At least in philosophy class.
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That looks like something a wokie would devour as voraciously as Groomer Jeffy chokes down a score of Krispy Kreme donuts.
We're already being told that 2+2=4 is racist, so flat-earth doesn't seem so crazy.
“After School Satan Clubs” cause no direct harm—"
How do you know this?
Until it is time for the priestess to get pregnant, so you can perform the sacramental abortion.
It's a fair question. Any faith-based club could potentially be harmful if one considers the faith innately problematic. That goes just as well for Christian clubs as any other. The Satan Clubs are atheistic in nature. I'm sure some parent have an issue with children learning atheism as a philosophy. Regardless participating in a voluntary school club with your peers is unlikely to cause "direct harm" just as a general rule. How many news articles have you read about chess club massacres?
The libertarian assumption is that no harm is done unless it can be shown. So in the absence of proof there is not harm.
When a Church of Satan candidate wanted to run on the LP ticket I was shocked. Now, after seeing the party dragged through the mud my alternating hordes of anarco-commies and anarco-fascists I see the difference between mildly shocking and suicidally asinine. In Austin the Church of the Sub-Genius served as a healthy release valve reducing danger from mystical hysteria.
This post was almost legible. Good job, Hank.
Can ChatGPT translate gibberish?
From your mouth to ChatGPT's cyber-ear:
At first, I was surprised when a Church of Satan member wanted to run for office under the Libertarian Party. But now, I've witnessed the party being attacked by both extreme leftist and extreme rightist groups, and it's clear to me that allowing a Church of Satan member to run would have been a terrible decision. In contrast, in Austin, the Church of the Sub-Genius has actually helped to relieve tension and prevent any irrational, mystical beliefs from taking hold.
This much I understood. "Praise Bob!"
🙂
The devil is in the details.
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The mere mention of Needle Exchange Clubs, Drag Dancing, Groomer Clubs, Pedophile Clubs, BDSM Club, Unwed Mothers Club, should not be enough to cause us to abandon all pluralistic ideals — the perversion is in the details.
They do not actually worship Satan, they are just anti-religious bigots with a penchant for trolling.
Mad at dad and mom and really want to stick it to them? Have we got a solution for you.
I thought the kids just cut their own dicks off or had hysterectomies to piss off their parents now.
The hot chicks typically just follow the time honored tradition of fucking guys their parents will hate.
good times.
I was actually just thinking this really gives new meaning/conception to Ken White's notion of "Goat Fucking".
No! No! I'm not actually evil! I just go to Satan Club... and Abortion Club... and Drag Queen Story Club, ironically! I mean, I oppose Judeo-Christian values as well as broad swaths of western, and other, mores about gender roles, jurisprudence, fair play and good faith, and even relatively agnostic epistemological concepts like science, but I only do it to be edgy! I only actively disinform people in order to trick them into murdering babies so that I can collect the blood for Satan Club in order to be popular!
One second they're atheists and the next they're a walking parade of horribles working at a pizza joint with no basement (::wink::wink::)
"penchant for trolling" - absolutely correct.
"anti-religious bigots" - not in my experience. Some are but most just want to be left alone - and react badly when they're not left alone.
The first sentence of your three-sentence post doesn't agree with your last sentence, Tony.
"Penchant for trolling" as the means of "react[ing] badly when they're not left alone." That would be in agreement.
The Satanic Temple operates as the nations best advocate for separation of church and state in the country. They do it by using the same legal loopholes that Christians create for themselves. So in that sense, trolling is an apt descriptor. However, they aren't that in-your-face when it comes to their trolling; their general response is to engage a lawyer and have them request equal access to the public sphere...for a giant statue of Baphomet.
I run into the type who thinks seeing a church in the distance is not "being left alone".
Just want to be left alone - to file lawsuits forcing people to accept them.
You have to explain how this is bigotry. They are atheists. Atheists laughing at the religious is similar to scientists laughing at flat earthers or economists laughing at socialists.
Pretty sure atheists, scientists, and economists don't need someone to white knight for them. Even if they did, it obviously didn't occur to you that "You're going to have to explain bigotry to me!" would be embarrassing to them.
Serious question…. Is it bigotry to ridicule someone for their unsubstantiated beliefs? It seems you're opening the term up to be applied to anyone.
That’s what you’re claiming that it’s bigotry to ridicule Christians for believing in something. You guys ridicule leftists 24/7 in these very forums and nobody claims you’re a bigot.
I wouldn't say "nobody."
Still think you're doing atheists, scientists, and economists favors by demonstrating your inability to use a dictionary?
Basically, anyone who isn't a silent cypher who lets brazen mystical bullshit fly about unopposed is a bigot to the likes of mad.casual.
You were beaten nearly enough, and I bet you were beat up a lot.
And fucking assholes like you were and are of the ilk who would do that.
Forgetting all the classics not allowed in schools. Pot smoking club. Whiskey tasting club. Sex club.
In my day those were known as “extra curricular” activities; part of your education, but you learn by doing them and learning from trial and error. Such important lessons as “liquor then beer, everything clear” and “don’t stick it in crazy,” etc. And of course if you want to avoid the mother of all hangover headaches, don’t get high and drunk. Man that hurt!
Sex club.
In this day and age, that's called K-12
K-3, que no?
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definitely.
As I principle I totally agree with this. I think that it should be a standard applied to all sorts of expression at a school.
However, this is not the way things are. The supreme court has specifically ruled that schools have wide latitude in permitting or forbidding all sorts of association and speech if they are “disruptive” to the schools mission to educate kids.
This has included content-based discrimination, such as banning tshirts that say stuff like “fuck the police”. The justification is that schools must have the power to suppress freedom to associate and speak in order to prevent disruption of their core mission (education). Given that satan clubs often thrive on disruption, by posting provocative content with similar disruptive intent as “Fuck the Police”, allowing the satan clubs seems to be selectively applying the law.
Again, as a principle, I agree that the satan clubs are fine. But as practiced, if satan clubs are allowed, then a lot of existing court precedent probably should be revisited. If it were revisited, that would be a good thing. If not, then it is a bad thing as we are not applying the law equally.
1) The atheistic Satanic Temple doesn't open Satan Clubs in schools that do not already have other religious clubs. (source: the OP)
2) What would make an atheist club more disruptive than any other religious club?
I don't think you can argue that one faith is "disruptive" and students cannot access it without implicating the other faiths at the same school and without specific evidence of disruption.
I didn't argue that one faith is disruptive while another isn't. I said that often times the Satan Club (and church of satan) deliberately posts provocative content. This isn't a surprise, because the whole purpose of the Satan Club is to create shock value to try and illustrate the lines of religious and state separation.
I have no problem with disruptive speech when trying to make a point in public. "Fuck the Police" is an intentionally provocative statement trying to generate reactions and movement. Having a "religious organization named after satan" is a deliberately provocative statement trying to generate reactions and movement.
My point was that courts have long ruled that you do not have a right to be provocative and disruptive in school, because public schools are places to educate. I don't necessarily agree with that, but this is the problem when you ask the government to do something that should be left to the private sector where things like property rights easily solve these problems. And my point further is that if we are going to allow disruptive speech, then we should be using these court cases to push much more than religious freedom.
Ultimately, these questions just need to be handled on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn’t be in favor of a state of federal rule that explicitly banned Satanism club, but I don’t think there’s any need to ever actually approve one.
If the kids actually want to be serious, they could start up an Atheism club, whose mission is to actually provide community and discussion. It can be productive for their education and mental well-being. The school also has no duty to approve that club, but again, it doesn’t need to be banned on principle.
"After School Satan Clubs (and most modern Satanists) do not literally worship Satan."
Or maybe they do, unintentionally.
"Satan Clubs Should Be Allowed in Schools"
Perhaps, but more importantly, each school board should be allowed to govern their own affairs and decide for themselves. To have 9 judges decide for everyone at the federal level is oligarchy.
+1
You're basically arguing that it should be up to states and school districts to interpret the Constitution the way that suits their people. I don't think that this is a good argument.
Someone needs to tell that to Ron DeSantis.
Ron DeSantis doesn't give a flying fuck about the schools. He's just looking forward to the primaries and cares deeply what the bottom third of the American voter pool care about. Anyone he can stick it to and get away with, even if unconstitutional, is fine by him.
No, he's not arguing it. It's settled. Just because you want to be a retard and act like education is covered in The Constitution and the 9 and 10A don't exist doesn't make your lack of thought a good argument for or against The Constitution or any particular state action. It just makes you look like a moron.
Education per se isn't covered but government promotion of religion is covered and hence government-provided education is likewise covered - and in any event, it's up to the courts to decide how to interpret the Constitution.
Great argument. "We need the courts to say what is in the constitution because the courts have said what is in the constitution."
Would it surprise you at all to find out that long ago legislators and executives cared about what was constitutional, and didn't just outsource it to 9 guys with robes?
This alleged outsourcing took place in the Constitution itself, when the judicial power was delegated to the Supreme Court and inferior courts, because part of judicial power is legal interpretation.
Legislators and executives have often ignored the Constitution or attempted to impose their own interpretation. And Marbury v Madison was not a recent decision.
The 9th and 10th Amendkents apply to Satanists too, right?
I can see where they should be allowed in schools. And I can see where I wouldn't bat an eye or lift a finger if the membership was treated like absolute human garbage by the rest of the student body.
I didn't know American schools allowed Christian clubs at public schools. I thought it wasn't allowed.
Or are these Satan clubs just an exception?
The greatest trick which should be the lamest trick The Devil ever pulled, "I'm a Satanist who doesn't worship Satan."
Yet another card-carrying member of the "I'm so dishonest and retarded I should be beaten to death out of hand but modern civility prevents that." Club accidentally walking around without his membership card again. Whether Antifa, BLM, glowie... who knows.
But enough of your suicidal ideations.
I didn’t know American schools allowed Christian clubs at public schools. I thought it wasn’t allowed.
They must, actually.
The narrative say that American white heterosexual Christian cis males are the most oppressed people in the history of mankind. Don't start fucking it up with facts. Nobody cares.
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You may have missed the memo. Yesterday it was declared that nobody is allowed to use the terminology, "cis", in the Reason commentariat. Add it to the list of verboten things: talking about DeSantis, Trump, abortion, January 6th, etc.
I never really gave a shit about memos.
Who let you out of your refrigerator box?
And here goes the dumbest of all the Reason conservatives.
Next thing you know, they'll be listening to Ozzy and Black Sabbath!
Which would be an improvement.
my mother lit my ozzy cassettes on fire on the weber grill
Well done.
this was funny.
Mine wrote a letter to the Courier Post because she thought a Far Side cartoon was too edgy.
hilarious. I delivered the Post
I delivered the Shopper's Guide.
Sucks to be you guys. Dad wrote a letter excusing my absence from school to the effect of:
Also, when a jail was being built in town, he sent a letter to the editor to the local paper complaining about how the styrofoam in the windows was completely insufficient to keep inmates detained and signed it with the name of one of the more well-humored, but still very "Karen", Moms.
Same God-fearing guy who still attends church every Sunday, and a decade before, was washing my mouth out with soap for saying the word "butt" and making me pick out my switch for misbehaving.
my parents believe I went to at least 50 fewer concerts than I did from 1983-1990
So that explains it.
Actual conversation I had as a teenager:
My dad saw my Santana album and exclaimed, “Does that say, Satan?!”
“Umm, no, dad, it is Spanish for ‘saint’.”
(And, yes, I know that my answer was not technically correct. It means, Saint Anne.)
Good thing Google didn't exist so your father could check the meaning of "Abraxas" 🙂
nice. mine grounded me because I left my Boingo cassette in his deck & he heard the song "Nothing Bad Ever Happens" and failed to understand the ironic bent
grounded. because Danny Elfman is fucking hilarious.
What a sin to make good meat taste like burnt plastic forever!
🙂
Does the Satan club meet at the Pascal's Bet casino?
Betting on something logically self-contradictory is a sure way to lose.
Get rid of public schools. All of these "controversies" go away.
This isn't a controversy because people that join "Satan clubs" aren't really people, they're mutated abortions
Sooooo...as sacred as sperm and ovum? Or even the mere thought of them by married heterosexual couples?
🙂
After School Satan Clubs cause no direct harm
now do after-school National Socialist clubs.
The argument seems to be... as best as I can tell... that it's not about freedom of expression but if the expression 'causes any harm', that harm being ill-defined. So if a club causes 'harm' then any interference in that club activity from school officials is justified.
It's my understanding that the harm of a KKK or Nazi club is that its (presumed) racist attitudes would be hurtful to the Students of Color (Jews, I think would have to be included). And this hurt would be derived merely from the expression of ideas-- as everyone agrees that any physical interference such as assaults would *checks notes* violate the NAP.
So, if I take a less shocking and eye-opening extreme, perhaps a Humor club akin to National Lampoon would also be disallowed because as we recall, National Lampoon... lampooned public figures and ideas via the vector of humor and satire. Mocking people and ideas could therefore be defined as "harmful". They would be sort of on the same level as Charlie Hebdo. So that club wouldn't be allowed... if I have all my Agrippa in order here.
Wouldn't a Satan Club and its anti-Christian attitudes be hurtful to the Students of Christian persuasion?
Yes.
Just in case you're not clueing to what I'm ultimately saying is, Reason has accidentally made an argument which supports the school in not allowing the Satan Club.
Had Reason stopped swiveling their hips for a nano-second and not added the "Hey man, like, it's not causing harm and shit man...", then they could have stuck to purely dispassionate arguments about free expression. But THEY added the 'harm' component to the argument... so there you have it.
Wait. Are you saying Reason ceded the ground and proceeded to quibble over the details? Not Reason!
Hoist on their own retard
lol
What's with you and hip-swiveling? Fan of Elvis?
🙂
Not any more than a Christian club would be hurtful to the students of any other religious persuasion. Why is one protected over the other?
Would you feel better if the atheists pretended to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster instead of Satan?
It's absolutely hilarious that you're forever stuck in the "I'm edgy because I believe there's no god" 12-year-old phase.
Feel free to continue practicing your blind faith and letting people know you've got nothing interesting to say though.
LOL. Atheism isn't about rebellion or even belief. It's the lack of belief. I wouldn't call you A-santa because you presumably don't believe in Santa Claus or A-unicorn because you don't believe in unicorns.
Sic 'em, Leo! His perpetual 12-year old phase is idolizing Vladamir Putin, Alexandr Dugin, and Patriarch Kirill.
Chef Boyardee is one of the Icons.
🙂
Wouldn’t a Christian Club and its anti-Satan attitudes be hurtful to students of Satanic persuasion?
Sauce for the goose…
Meanwhile, look at the Satanic Temple’s actual tenets:https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/about-us
You may not agree with all of them but they are not evidently dangerously hostile to any non-Satanic group.
So it's all about "harm". Thank you for agreeing with my point.
It depends on the nature of the harm, obviously. And there is always a balancing act even wrt religious groups. But the Satanic Temple clearly is on the harmless side of things in a way that, e.g., a John Chrysostom Fan Club or a Thugee club might not be.
Similarly, a Christian club with it's anti-atheist values would be harmful to the Satan club. Or maybe, in a pluralistic society with constitutional protections for freedom of religion, we cannot declare a minority religion "harmful" out of hand but have to prove the harm in a secular (one hopes) court of law.
Nah. We're good.
It is hilarious though, watching these pathetic edgelords cry for government recognition. Way to show you're strong, independent, and free from them mindshackle, guys.
It really loses a lot of caché when you stop sacrificing animals in the night and drinking each other's blood.
Speak for yourself. I only use Forums such as this to express my Atheism and Pro-Rationality views.
Satan clubs should be allowed if the people who pay for the school want to allow them, period. If they don't like them, they should be prohibited.
How about off campus and unsanctioned clubs? Should they be allowed/tolerated regardless of the institution's beliefs?
I have zero problem with a school not allowing a KKK club on campus. What they do off campus is their business.
People are free to do whatever they want on their private property.
Satan clubs should be allowed if the people who pay for the school want to allow them, period. If they don’t like them, they should be prohibited.
I prefer the freedoms of speech and association.
Then you're probably not going to find a sympathetic audience in the Satan club soys
I don't see how "You should get as much or as little speech as you paid for." has anything to do with free speech or free association to the point that he may as well have just said, "I prefer rainbows and chocolate-vanilla swirl ice cream!" like a retard.
Does your Mom know you're on the internet? If so, go tell her. We don't give out gold stars here.
So do I... as long as I'm not forced to pay for your exercise of free speech and association.
So, don't do it on school grounds.
So no after-school religious clubs, then, which is not an unreasonable nor inconsistent position, though I prefer to allow them - after all, we pay for the school grounds already and your taxes aren't hypothecated..
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. Whether there should be Christian clubs, Satan clubs, or polka dancing clubs, or any other clubs, should be left entirely up to the votes of the local tax payers. If they want Christian clubs and no Satan clubs, that’s fine. If they want Satan clubs and no Christian clubs, that’s fine too. This is something that should be determined by local voters, not SCOTUS or the federal government. Applying the 1A via incorporation to how local public schools are run is currently the law, but it is not libertarian and it is morally wrong.
You're arguing for direct democracy on everything, in effect - and alsothat goes to the hypothecation point. Quaker taxes shouldn't go to military spending, nor Jewish taxes to inspection of pig farms, and so on.(FWIW there is an idea, mentioned in, amongst other places, the Fred Pohl short story "the Problem Pit", that each taxpayer should be able to allocate a certain percentage of their taxes directly)
Also, 1A is not a granting of rights but a recognition of them. If individuals within a community do not want another religion to have the same rights of assembly as their own religion, to use your phrase, that is not libertarian and is morally wrong.
No, I'm not. I'm arguing for subsidiarity.
It is neither a grant of rights nor a recognition of rights. The 1A is an explicit prohibition on Congress.
To the contrary, under libertarianism, there is freedom of association. That means that communities can decide to include or exclude whoever they want.
"Applying the 1A via incorporation to how local public schools are run is currently the law, but it is not libertarian and it is morally wrong."
Neither is, you know, taxing the voters to create a public school system. There is nothing libertarian about the 51% of the voters in a city deciding what clubs 100% of the kids get to enjoy. If you are going to argue that somehow contracts, democracy, blah blah, then whatever logic you use to say a majority's preference wins the day allows for a constitution that limits their power to impose their preferences.
And of course this is the problem when government departs controlled flight and tries doing shit best left to the private sector. The appropriate response is to let people "vote" with their money. If you don't like the clubs at a school, enroll your kid somewhere else. You don't have to argue with the childless karens in your town because they aren't paying for the service- you are. Once everything is private transactions, we don't have to make legalistic gymnastic moves to determine who gets a club and who doesn't.
Well, that's partially correct. In a libertarian society, it would be 51% of property owners (not residents) in a private community who would decide what clubs 100% of the kids get to enjoy on community grounds and in community schools.
(Of course, there might also be many private communities that are organized differently and don't have community schools.)
When Satan clubs are banned or otherwise restricted, communities give the clubs' organizers exactly what they want—a framework for removing all religious organizations and institutions from public schools. In 2004, the Supreme Court ruled in Good News Club vs. Milford Central School that public schools, acting as a "limited public forum[s]" outside of school hours, cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.
Goose, meet Gander.
Democrats need to learn about their lord and master!
Even Satan thinks the Ds are fucked up these days
The Accountant: Satan is simply the warden of a very large prison. Quiet man actually, thoughtful and he’s well read. And I happen to know the idea of sacrificing children in his honour annoys him greatly.
George Spiggot is a very witty and urbane gentleman.
That was a mediocre movie that I couldn't take my eyes off of.
I once read a book called "And The Devil Will Drag You Under", which portrayed heaven as a university, and Satan as head of the philosophy department until he lost his tenure and started a competing school.
That was a mediocre movie that I couldn’t take my eyes off of.
Yup.
I thought this article was going to be about DeSantis.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."
And once you get onto the broad way that leads unto destruction, as one of your own poets has said, there are no stop signs or speed limits.
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Uh, I would've thought the libertarian position is: there shouldn't be any public schools in the first place!
(But it's Reason Magazine, so I should've known better than to expect to see the libertarian position stated.)