Debate: It's Time for a National Divorce
Are political breakups really as American as apple pie?
A National Divorce Is an Opportunity for Peaceful Coexistence
Affirmative: Angela McArdle
The largest, most obvious divorce-worthy incidents in this country were the COVID-19 lockdowns and vaccine mandates. Those of us who opposed these measures were dehumanized and effectively shut out of society. The proverbial line was finally drawn in the sand, but setting those grievances aside, we are still too culturally far apart to peacefully coexist. Our country has become an ideological war zone, with battles being fought over Black Lives Matter, abortion, school curriculums, and child gender reassignments. Everything has been politicized, from entertainment to diet to the FBI. While a large group of libertarians refuse to fit perfectly into the left or right paradigm, there are two culturally and politically dominant factions in this country, and they are not living peacefully together.
We are in an abusive relationship. I want a divorce.
Instead of letting one party twist in the wind as their rights are further eroded until nothing is left, we should call it quits before worse rights violations and violence erupts. One of the most infuriating experiences over the last three years has been watching emotional reactions supersede basic constitutional rights and civil liberties.
Much like a traditional divorce, a national divorce is an emotional topic. People long for the good ol' days, remembering when things weren't so bad. But those days are gone and we just don't get along anymore.
We've gone through a terrible national trauma and most of us are not willing to let bygones be bygones. Emily Oster infamously called for "pandemic amnesty." Those of us who suffered at the hands of mandates angrily shot back, "No amnesty!" We would not discuss divorce if we were trying to work out a minor disagreement. This fight is existential: We want the right to live our lives peacefully, without the threat of everything we hold dear being arbitrarily stripped away at the whim of nanny state bureaucrats.
For libertarians, this should be a simple issue: Do human beings have the right to self-determination? Yes, we should have the absolute right to choose how we live our lives, so long as we do not aggress upon others. But a large chunk of the population does not believe in this concept. How can we coexist in a country with people who seek to subjugate us?
Even faced with these obvious arguments, some libertarians feel squeamish. National divorce? That's unpopular. It could make us look bad. It could remind people of the Civil War.
We should worry less about "looking bad" to a group of people that dehumanized us so recently. Regardless, divorce is a fairly normalized and acceptable practice in the United States (after all, 40–50 percent of marriages end in divorce).
Surely, we're not worried about losing our constitutional rights when so many of them are already gone. Progressives view the overturning of Roe v. Wade as a constitutional violation. To libertarians, the First Amendment, Second Amendment, and Fourth Amendment have been diminished beyond recognition. We've all but lost our federal system of checks and balances between the three branches of government, and the balance of powers between state and federal governments hardly exists, either. There is effectively no check when the same party holds power on the federal and state level.
But what if states break away and do bad things? In the eyes of many people, that is happening right now. Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) sometimes refers to California as a nation-state, and just recently, California passed a trans kids refugee bill. In 2021, members of the Texas Legislature proposed a secession bill, and the following year Texas outlawed abortion. Both of these bills were seen as an affront to liberty by people with different values. It's unlikely that any secessionist government could do worse without the backing of federal military power, and residents would be able to move to another state much more easily than the average U.S. resident can move to another country.
The national divorce argument is always framed through fear, uncertainty, and doubt. What about the incredible opportunities that we stand to gain? A national divorce provides an opportunity for peace, a culling of America's global hegemony, a diversity in currency and return to sound money, an economic boon for states that deregulate, economic and technological competition, happiness from cultural cohesion, and the avoidance of a massive violent conflict.
The American experiment in representative democracy started out gloriously. I have tremendous appreciation for the Founding Fathers and our Constitution, but they were only able to get us so far. Our once-great Republic is barely recognizable. The America of the past is becoming a distant memory.
As Michael Malice, author and podcast host, said in 2016, why should two monolithic cultures with opposite worldviews continue attempting to move forward as one unit when they are ideologically moving further apart? American progressives view everyone else as something they can "own" and force into compliance. It's long past time for conservatives and libertarians to live as they see fit. And who's to say we could only split apart into two governments? There is potential for us to split into many different governments, maybe even a libertarian state.
The libertarian call for divorce doesn't have to fall along a strict red/blue boundary. It could look like any number of things: from a radical return to strict federalism, a confederation of smaller state-countries, or any other number of voluntary arrangements spanning political, cultural, or geographic boundaries. The United States already has territories and states spread across the world. A national divorce doesn't need a single, geographic dividing line to split the country neatly down the middle.
There's no guarantee you won't have conflict with a national divorce, but there's no guarantee you won't have civil war or fighting without a national divorce either. We face many of the same risks regardless, so why shut ourselves off from a last chance for happiness?
Libertarians should be thoughtful but fearless in the representation of our ideas. Moderate positions never move the needle in the directions of liberty. We should advocate for national divorce as the emotionally intelligent choice in this conflict. The compassionate, empathetic thing to do in a volatile relationship is for one party to let the other go.
Do I want to be forcibly subjected to a government that may further strip me of my rights, lock me in my home, declare my livelihood nonessential, and unperson me because I refuse to get a shot? No, I do not. No sane libertarian would willingly choose this fate for himself or his family. Let's turn this opportunity for dissolution into something positive and negotiate a peaceful divorce.
Ideological Differences Don't Necessitate Divorce
Negative: Zach Weissmueller
Calls for national divorce imply that Americans are too different to share a country. Better to retreat to enclaves. Better to cluster with those who share your political affinity and religious beliefs. Let's stick to our own kind.
This crude tribalism is the most disturbing feature of national divorce discourse. It's self-reinforcing: Insist Americans' differences are irreconcilable, cherry-pick extreme but rare examples to exaggerate those differences, and presto, the increased hostility bolsters the case for national divorce!
National divorce is not devolving policy from the federal government down to the state and local levels. That's federalism. It's not governors challenging federal authority through the courts. That's also federalism. It's not citizens banding together to flout immoral laws. That's civil disobedience. And it's not engaging in off-grid, hard-to-trace activity. That's agorism. All are viable and laudable libertarian strategies for resisting tyranny; none are national divorce.
National divorce fans might say political breakups are as American as apple pie. After all, the Declaration of Independence says sometimes it's "necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another." No argument there. Divorce, though often brutal and traumatizing, is sometimes necessary. But America's revolutionaries also understood the profound cost they'd pay for independence. "Prudence," they declared, "indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes."
The revolutionaries' cause was neither light nor transient. More than eight years of bloody and disease-ridden guerrilla warfare dissolved those ties to a distant and despotic king. The victory paved the way for the world's most libertarian governing political document: the U.S. Constitution. Unfortunately, a national divorce today would trash the fruits of that astounding outcome. Unshackling state and local governments is exactly what today's would-be national divorcees hope to do.
After the Mises Caucus allies of my debate opponent took over the Libertarian Party in May 2022, the party's Twitter account called the Supreme Court "an illegitimate institution" that "should not be empowered to make sweeping decisions for 330 million people." This might bewilder libertarians who notice that the court has been more friendly to government critics lately on issues like COVID-19 lockdowns and mandates, student loan forgiveness, and religious freedom.
But delegitimizing the Supreme Court is a crucial step along the path to national divorce. The short-term goal is to discredit the modern interpretation of the 14th Amendment's due process clause. Then the Bill of Rights would no longer restrain state or local governments. In post-divorce America, California would have freer rein to confiscate guns. Florida lawmakers could shrug off the First Amendment and ban "offensive" speech. Cops everywhere wouldn't need to concern themselves about violating citizens' constitutional rights.
Does that sound like a more libertarian America?
My opponent has tweeted that "we should peacefully separate as much as possible." The party account has asked, "Pro-lifers, why share a country with those who support the dismemberment of babies in the womb? Pro-choicers, why share a country with those who would take a woman's right to abort away?"
In other words, national divorce would involve extreme ideological self-segregation.
Balkanizing heavily armed Americans into highly polarized partisan tribes who couldn't possibly "share a country" isn't a promising formula for a peaceful separation. Look at the war-torn history of the actual Balkans. Yet this is a rhetorical strategy of the new Libertarian Party: Exaggerate political divides (for example, most Americans are actually moderates on abortion) to further escalate the culture war. If you persuade enough people that living among the "other" is intolerable, divorce and migration into distinct cultural enclaves looks more viable.
Even more disturbing, a national divorce likely means the end of free movement between states. Ryan McMaken of the Mises Institute spells this out in a February 2020 article, arguing that, "By ending legal and physical separations between culturally and legally diverse political jurisdictions, opposing sides end up fighting bitterly over who controls the central government."
The centralization of power in the federal government is a problem that all libertarians should be working to reverse. But erecting patrolled borders between the states would shred a vital personal liberty: the right of exit. Americans would find themselves far less free to "vote with their feet." Millions did this during the pandemic, escaping "lockdown" states for less restrictive jurisdictions. I was one of them.
Trade barriers between the states would also cripple America's global economic advantage. Since free trade makes war less likely, this would also increase the odds of violent interstate conflict. Sure, states could work out their own trade agreements, but who knows when or if that would happen? This all paints a rather dark picture of a future that's quite the opposite of the promised peaceful separation.
A national divorce would bring an end to the American experiment. No longer would a written constitution promise every citizen the "blessings of liberty" because of his or her inherent value as an individual. In its place, local "community" concerns would triumph. Who defines the community and its concerns? Look around the world for your answer: whichever group claims sovereignty over the land and has the violent means to back up that claim.
National divorce thus implies a reversion to a kind of pre-Enlightenment politics. It jettisons the equal protection of individual rights for a political order based around a reductive question: Are you friend or foe? The role of these new states is to protect friends and punish enemies. The personal, political, and cultural must merge with this sort of state to form an all-encompassing tribal identity. You're either in the tribe or out.
I propose a more pragmatic and palatable means of political decentralization: Embrace and leverage the federalism that the Constitution guarantees. When practical, engage in outright disobedience to advance and secure human liberty.
Call it a national renegotiation.
The cannabis legalization movement traversed this path for decades. Some local sheriffs have disregarded state firearm regulations, declaring "gun sanctuaries." So-called progressive prosecutors ignore "victimless crimes" such as sex work or drug possession. "Sanctuary cities" refuse to work with federal immigration agencies. There's very little the federal government can do about much of this.
A little disobedience goes a long way. This is a proven nonviolent method for decentralizing government power. The consequence for local disobedience is rarely an armed federal invasion. It's a closing of the checkbook. That is the truly hard political task: Refuse federal money, and cut the strings that come attached.
Unlike a national divorce, this path is peaceful, achievable, and quintessentially American.
Subscribers have access to Reason's whole May 2023 issue now. These debates and the rest of the issue will be released throughout the month for everyone else. Consider subscribing today!
- Debate: It's Time for a National Divorce
- Debate: Artificial Intelligence Should Be Regulated
- Debate: Democracy Is the Worst Form of Government Except for All the Others
- Debate: To Preserve Individual Liberty, Government Must Affirmatively Intervene in the Culture War
- Debate: The E.U. Was a Mistake
- Debate: The U.S. Should Increase Funding for the Defense of Ukraine
- Debate: Mentally Ill Homeless People Must Be Locked Up for Public Safety
- Debate: Despite the Welfare State, the U.S. Should Open Its Borders
- Debate: Cats Are More Libertarian Than Dogs
- Debate: Make Housing Affordable by Abolishing Growth Boundaries, Not Ending Density Restrictions
- Debate: Bitcoin Is the Future of Free Exchange
- Debate: Be Optimistic About the World
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So, mom and dad are both bat-shit crazy, and spend all their waking time figuring out how to fuck each other over, goaded by their attorneys and equally split groups of friends. Should they divorce? Reconcile and get counseling? Split and get joint custody of the kids?
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I am in favor of partitioning the country between the big cities and the rural and smaller cities.
We normal people cannot live with the crazies who Not only can’t tell a man for woman but demand that we bake the cakes and let our daughters be trounced in sports.
If a national peaceful divorce is not done then the totalitarianism of the left will surely cause American civil war version 2.0
Yes but given that the feds have the national military, I’d imagine it”d look more like Iraq of Afghanistan – asymmetrical “tribal” violence.
The left is willing to target officials who they don’t like, or even their families. They have used threats and violence for DECADES. The right will almost inevitably follow after what Alvin Bragg did (because sitting on their thumbs for decades hasn’t worked). And the sane people will be caught in the crossfire.
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Why should we allow the left to have anything?
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No, mom is an abusive psychotic who routinely murders her children, punishes them for trying to defend themselves, and encourages them to inflict violence upon dad if he actually attempts to protect them.
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Hell no!
Criminal behaviour doesn’t warrant talking about a national divorce. Those dregs end up where they belong, out of society, in prison.
If you want to live in a society that values the inalienable right to life, you’re just going to have to accept some minor inconveniences.
I favor getting rid of the socialists. Including national socialists.
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Of course! Divorce or anything that deviates from loving Der Führer and “The Common Good Over The Individual Good” is verboten according to Herr Misek!
Himmler’s Bridal Bootcamp: School For Nazi Brides
ARTICLES
Mar 10, 2014 Ian Harvey, Guest Author
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/himmlers-bridal-bootcamp-school-nazi-brides.html
Well, you and your ilk of any sex wouldn’t even get a first date out of me, much less a chance to divorce!
Fuck Off, Nazi!
“Fuck Off, Nazi!”
^This.
Hahaha
Sheeple trolls bleating naaazi.
I couldn’t be more pleased with the optics.
Yeah, well as the Transformers jingle puts it, there’s more to reality than just optics.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
“I couldn’t be more pleased with the optics.”
We kinda figured.
Well, we call it as we see it, Heinrich.
I’m sure you do.
The fact that you can’t prove what you claim or refute what you deny demonstrates your bigoted myopia.
That’s because you’re vocal anti semitic Nazi. By your own admission.
Prove your claim that I’m a Nazi or unless you agree with everything I’ve said refute that which you deny.
You’re lying again Kol Nidre boy.
I’ve told you! Nazi is as Nazi does! You don’t need the Blazer Badge and brown uniform to share the ideology!
Now Fuck Off, Nazi!
You’re a Jew hating Nazi. You say so all the time here. Then pretend you’re not. Were you raised to hate Jews? Or were you an envious loser who fell in with anti Semite?
Hahaha
Every time I challenge you or anyone else to prove your claims that I either “hate” Jews or am a “Nazi”, you can’t. That’s not me denying anything. That’s you not being able to prove your claims. Lying.
I do hate lying and corruption. Whoever does it. Identifying those who lie and are corrupt isn’t hatred it’s the beginning of justice.
Nobody has refuted anything I’ve said that identifies the overwhelming magnitude of lying, corruption and crimes against humanity committed by and for Jews. Even though you can’t refute it, not only do you simply deny it, you claim that the mere identification of wrongdoing done by Jews is hateful, antisemitism is your popular term. You use it like a phoney shield of some kind of “diplomatic immunity”
Well, I DON’T RECOGNIZE THAT PHONY SHIELD!
I’ll keep stating the facts that you can’t refute, identifying lies and liars and defying your repeated failed attempts to coerce me or anyone else to be silent.
I recognize that you have only two choices when I make statements that offend you, refute them or observe in impotent outrage while I do.
I’m pleased with these optics.
You demonstrate your choice.
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No divorce needed. Democrats are traitors and get nothing. Kick them out and eliminate the ones who won’t leave willingly.
The end.
Hates Nazis, loves mass murder…
The left has made it clear what they want to do. Like cancer cells, they will never stop. Therefore the transplantation, or destruction of the left becomes necessary.
If the left wishes to survive, they need only abandon their bullshit beliefs, and live in peace with those around them. We owe them nothing. Not even one square inch of this country. Which belongs to Americans, not leftists.
“Well, Sis, pack your Bug-Out Bag. We’re going feral! Watch out for Sher Khan over there in the woods!”
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Divorce has a negative finality to it that I don’t think America wants.
Maybe make the Federal government less important? Isn’t that the crux of the issue, that the Federal government simply became a behemoth (by assuming unenumerated powers) never contemplated by the Founders? Start there, the rest of it will sort out in 20-40 years or so.
That’s just crazy talk!
Unfortunately, to a great extent, one side does not only not agree the size and centralization of the federal government is a bad thing, they want even larger and more powerful centralized government. They applaud a government that monitors social media posts, who uses extrajudicial means to force their desires outcomes on others, who uses the threat of force to force compliance. The openly deride the Constitution as a dead document written by “Rich white men who owned slaves”. They see the Bill of Rights not as a check on federal government but as suggestions and rights granted by the state and thus they can be arbitrarily circumvented by the state. Yes, I would say this once applied to both sides, in equal amounts, but over the past couple decades we’ve seen this become the Hallmark of one side, while the other has increasingly embraced a more historical view of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
No, the right isn’t perfect, but they have a far better grasp of the importance and meaning of the enumerated powers in the Constitution and the natural rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Yes, you can cherry pick examples of the Right ignoring or circumventing these ideals, but how many examples can you point to the left embracing these ideals? Even those examples I will argue they do so only for their own, while arguing others should not have the same rights. My favorite is freedom of religion. How often does the left use freedom of religion to push for exclusion of religion? Or push freedom of religion for minority religious while also arguing for the restriction of the majority religion? How many times have you heard recently leftists argue that you can practice your religion in private but not in public?
Yes neither side is perfect, but, in the end one side is definitely far worse. I think the right is far more persuadable to a more classical liberal direction than the current left. Not the entire right, to be sure, but a far larger percentage than what I see on the left. Even in the case where you can point out the Rights imperfections (drugs, sex, transgenderism, abortion etc) I would argue it’s far more nuanced. The right on abortion truly believes that abortion is the killing of a defenseless individual and that they’re protecting that individuals rights. On transgenderism, LGBTQ etc, most in the right argue more from a stance of whatever adults choose to do is their prerogative but that doesn’t mean I have to participate nor that it should be taught to kids without parental consent, nor does it mean the elimination of females. On drugs, I think it’s a much more mixed bag (as seen by some deeply red states who have approved recreational marijuana). Even on religion, the right tends to be more fighting against those who have rather successfully forced religion into a private, taboo worship not to be expressed in public. I could go on, but I think this post is long enough.
Both sides want massive intrusive government. It’s the reason they are so unwilling to ever let go of power themselves. The hyperpartisans have ratcheted tensions up and demonized the other BECAUSE they each want to throttle everyone who looks different and they want to use govt to do so.
The Paleo caucus was never about tolerance of someone else’s liberty. And it was certainly never about classical liberalism.
“Both sides want massive intrusive government.”
Citation needed. As an outsider it looks like one side wants to be left the fuck alone, while the other wants to place pederasts in schools.
“The Paleo caucus was never about tolerance of someone else’s liberty.”
1. Do you even know what the The Paleo caucus was? Hint: It’s not the Neocons.
2. Sexualizing children isn’t “liberty”.
3. And even if the Paleo’s were the bogeyman you’re pretending, most of the country grossed out by your antics aren’t Paleos anyway. They’re classical liberals. What would have been moderate centrists 20 years ago.
4. As someone who wanted to mandate mRNA jabs, fire those who refused, and enforce lockdowns, you’ve got no fucking business talking about liberty.
> “Both sides want massive intrusive government.”
> Citation needed. As an outsider it looks like one side wants to be left the fuck alone, while the other wants to place pederasts in schools.
To some extent, the Right wants to be left alone, and certainly more that the Left often appears to want to leave others alone.
But undoubtedly the left would say that they want to be left alone to have gay marriages, and the right often does not want to let them have them. Obviously, when the left starts conscripting unwilling participants into those marriages, a’la wedding cakes, they’ve gone way too far. But there’s no arguing that quite a few on the right don’t want to prohibit gay marriage.
The right (depending on how one defines them, I suppose, a lot of people might say “Those are just RINOs”, but they’re still who we’d end up with on the libertarian half of the country) are quite fond of the MIC and the defense industry and going and sticking their dicks in all over the world. Just look at how little support there is from *anyone* over pulling out of Ukraine.
I’m not trying to say it’s an even split, but, ugh. Jfree actually does have somewhat of a case for “both sides” on this one. **Libertarians** want to be left the fuck alone **and leave others alone in turn**. Republicans are often quite happy to meddle in the affairs of others they dislike for various reasons. See also: Utah liquor laws. As my friend Larry (who is LDS) once said about those: “Why do we even care? We’re not supposed to be drinking anyway!”
All that said, I agree with soldiermedic, and generally am “pro” national divorce.
“But undoubtedly the left would say that they want to be left alone to have gay marriages, and the right often does not want to let them have them.”
No. The right doesn’t want to be forced to recognize them, but instead they’re being compelled to bake gay wedding cakes.
Ideally government would have gotten out of marriage entirely.
The left has moved on from gay wedding cakes.
Oregon denies Christian mother’s adoption request over stance on gender
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-denies-christian-mothers-adoption-request-over-stance-on-gender/ar-AA19vYdM
https://twitter.com/pepesgrandma/status/1644732946622955525?t=Gva0y2luLdbvZAIBN_x11A&s=19
Walter Reed issues a “cease and desist order” to Holy Name College, a community of Franciscan Catholic priests and brothers, who have provided pastoral care to service members and veterans at Walter Reed for nearly two decades.
The Franciscans’ contract for Catholic Pastoral Care was terminated on March 31, 2023, and awarded to a secular defense contracting firm that cannot fulfill the statement of work in the contract. As a result, there will be no catholic services thru Holy Week.
[Link]
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False. Typical leftist propaganda, “they’re just as totalitarian as we are!” Rubbish.
In this national divorce debate, I feel like a child who doesn’t want to live with either parent. It would be much nicer if both the hardcore Team Red and Team Blue enthusiasts went off somewhere and left the vast majority of us who are independents alone.
Actually you’re the demanding but officious child that neither parent actually can stand, let alone love.
“Wouldn’t you be happier with being with your Mother/Dad, Mikey? Im just going to be working a lot, and we can see each other at Christmas… maybe.”
You would be more at home living under the oppressive Marxist Trudeau
Regime. You already defend his evil bullshit, so you must be comfortable living that way, right?
It was a good post, we see things similarly.
Just get rid of the left. It isn’t complicated.
One of the insane things going on, under the radar, is (most of ) the U.S. Mainstream Media support of Pedro Castillo in Peru. Castillo, a leftist, who abolished congress and a started rewrite of Perus constitution. It’s hard to find anything with all the scrubbed articles. It’s silly to talk about a divorce in a constitution republic when one side wants to abolish the constitutional republic.
Spot on. National divorce is still the best answer, however. It should be on a county by county basis.
Do you foresee any practical problems with having a quiltwork country?
It might present some challenges, but it’s not without precedent. I note that the Catholic church provides many of the functions of a government, such as a court system, without regard to geographic location.
If you really want to try something extreme, perhaps allowing residents to “subscribe” to the government of their choice on an individual basis could get interesting. Although providing territorial defense might be a bit of a challenge.
The Vatican is an actual Nation-State recognized (sadly) by the U.S. and the U.N.
Given The Vatican’s long history of murdering heretics and unbelievers and it’s present use of Sovereign and Diplomatic Immunity to avoid prosecution for child sexual abuse and the cover-up and harboring of perpetrators, I’ll fucking pass on The Vatican setting up shop, especially anywhere near children!
And sorry, Nemo! The Witch-Burning you want might harsh quite a few neighbors’ barbecues of beef brisket, pork butt, and beer can chicken!
Fuck Off, Witch-Burning Nazi!
Nope. The left leaves, period. We keep everything. It belongs to us.
True. I almost agreed that a national divorce was the wrong idea, but the argument assumes that the left does not continue to centralize power and oppress those who speak out against them. I would bet it is only going to get worse (and completely crash) before it gets better.
So, the options are:
1. Divorce now. And feel the pain now related to losing the benefits of a larger nation. Assuming the agreement of a separate government utilizes the same US Constitution as it was written (constitutionalist understanding of the federal government). This options hurts now but allows for long term growth and prosperity.
2. Do not divorce. Devolve into a one-party state essentially run by an oligarchy…that transforms into a socialist or communist state. And oppresses dissenters by removing them from their property and jobs at best or place them in concentration camps to die at worst. Then that communist party will grow mad and end up getting a huge swath of their supporters dead long run, and shrink into a husk of a nation. The remaining people alive would have no choice but to suffer worse than the divorce and build from an even worse spot than before.
This could very well be the decision of cutting off a cancer that will require recovery or letting the cancer grow until it kills you. AKA the decision between growing a setback nation and building another genocidal communist government.
This makes the decision easy. Just like a spouse who will not reconcile and are destructive, they already divorced from the marriage. The sane spouse just has to let go and move on.
Wow, you’re saying that a slight majority of Americans wants to continue to oppress a slight minority of Americans, and that’s why such oppression should continue!
About 55% of Americans don’t want that. Rather, they want they exact opposite, because they have become dependent on redistribution and regulations by the federal government.
The genie is out of the bottle. The federal government now has those powers because of a century of SCOTUS doctrine on incorporation, interstate commerce, etc. That is the legal basis of the US now. You can’t undo that by wishful thinking, in particular given that large parts of society have become dependent on it for their wealth or their survival. IOW, neither billionaires, nor government employees, nor welfare recipients, nor most retirees want this to change, they want to double down on it.
“Wow, you’re saying that a slight majority of Americans wants to continue to oppress a slight minority of Americans, and that’s why such oppression should continue!”
It’s like finding out your crazy, abusive, controlling husband has been trying to fuck your daughter, but you decide to stay and try to make things work.
I’d say it’s more like finding out they *have* been fucking your daughter, and deciding to stay and try to work things out.
Unfortunately, the motherfucker *is* controlling and abusive, and he’s not going to let go easily.
“ Wow, you’re saying that a slight majority of Americans wants to continue to oppress a slight minority of Americans, and that’s why such oppression should continue!”
That is EXACTLY what they are saying. “Might makes right, you will submit!!!!”
NOYB2….I read the thread, and your response.
We are not at the outright oppression stage. You emigrated here, no? Then you know what true oppression is and we are not there…yet. Today perhaps 55% of Americans want more federal government. Attitudes and perceptions change; the pendulum swings. Your last point: the law changes also. We may see Chevron overturned soon, knocking out a means for the influence of the bureaucratic state to grow unchecked.
My biggest point: It is not too late. We must have a way to talk to each other. A national divorce destroys the American Experiment.
But I have seen radical changes over the last two generations, a complete transformation of what US society is. I would not immigrate to the US again.
It’s not looking good:
– more than 90% of high school kids graduate from schools that indoctrinated them into radical leftism and progressivism while having no understanding of economics or history
– more than 40% of Americans depend on the government for income, either as employees or as recipient of government programs
– the majority of high school graduates have a favorable view of socialism
– only about 1/3rd of all Americans regularly attend church
– the national debt greatly exceeds 100% of GDP and where government controls the majority of the economic activity in the country
How exactly is the pendulum going to swing the other way?
The US will become an authoritarian illiberal welfare state run by elites, like Europe. It will still do better than much of the rest of the world because of geography and resources, but that’s little consolation.
Nonsense. Divorce by county. Build a wall around the blue zones. Worth a few billion dollars for Liberty. Allow people one year of free travel (to move tot he zone they prefer), then lock it down.
That solution doesn’t sound very authoritarian at all.
It’s unlikely that any secessionist government could do worse without the backing of federal military power, and residents would be able to move to another state much more easily than the average U.S. resident can move to another country…
Sure. Until the Fugitive Abortion Act gets introduced.
Because killing kids is the same thing as abolishing slavery.
Don’t tell him why Margaret Stanger started planned parenthood
The nation is suppose to be divorced into 50 States….
Per the very *ignored* definition of the USA.
But totalitarian leftard Nazi’s just can’t leave their neighbors alone.
That problem has been going on for hundreds of years.
The conquer and consume criminals versus worthwhile earn and trade people. The ‘Union’ was only created to have a strong national defense.
…needless to point out every example in this article is left totalitarian induced. YES; Even abortion wasn’t federally banned it was resorted to the States. And the State judiciary should by their own copy-cat constitution uphold the premise of Roe v Wade.
Cleanse the left. Problem solved.
The Union was also created to ensure free trade between the states, as well as ensure that the Bill of Rights isn’t violated.
Of course, the federal government is overreaching a lot.
No.
This is a lie. The commies want total control and won’t let anyone live in peace.
This is our land. There is but one solution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfuAJcWl6DE
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Who gets stuck with the kids and the dog?
The cops will shoot the dogs.
my goodness, what a whiny, emo “affirmative” piece. get over yourself. grow up & learn to work together.
Working together isn’t packing Gov-Guns against those ‘icky’ people.
Government is nothing but a monopoly of Gun-Force.
Yet another thing the left proud-fully ignores for their theft benefits.
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Not when “getting along” means “submit to the leftist totalitarian agenda.” Pound sand.
You cannot negotiate with your executioner.
Leftists are welcome to unconditionally surrender and ‘learn to work together p’ with Americans.
“…get over yourself. grow up & learn to work together.” = Let’s be reasonable and do it my way.
Alternative für Deutchland infiltrators from Alabama rant that it’s great anytime a law is nullified… UNLESS it’s a law protecting the individual right of a woman to end a pregnancy. The anarco-communist agenda pushed by Rothbard et alii since 1974, aka Balkanization and Surrender Is Peace, is the anarchist credo. Women and objectivists will have to oust these impostors the same way Asians and Europeans got them in.
Comstock co-conspirators enraged by McMurrian sentimentality will observe that the god’s own garden won’t illuminate the backdrop of supercilious obfuscation. If the Elephant Party gets their Publican Pomegranates the way that the Corn Laws intended, we’ll have gooseberry goosing in the sundown state.
+1
LOL! I gotta say, that was funny!
🙂
You got the cadence down perfect and hit on many of Hank’s usual bullet points!
Since ChatGPT is presently stuck in extemporaneous but metered verse, it looks like you’ve got still got a great side-hustle in coffee-house free-form! Two thumbs up!
🙂
We should all have an Imitate Hank competition. With a prize for the weirdest portmanteau.
Weird Twist: One of the spambots wins after its owners mistake Hank’s ramblings as ideal training material.
Whenever I read Hank’s posts, it’s always in the voice of Inspector Frank Luger from Barney Miller, only Hank’s waxing nostalgic about The Libertarian Good Ol’ Days with Phillips & McBride & Hospers & Nation!
Me, Foster, Kliener and Brownie….
https://youtu.be/tc2zBQMjD3U
Really, it’s damn sad. There are many points I can agree on with Hank when I can decipher them. I’m looking for a brain formula on the supplement shelf so I don’t get that way when I’m older!
Luger was always entertaining. My favorite was an episode where the detectives were supposed to spend one day a month in uniform, and go out on patrol. Luger goes out with Harris, and upon their return, Harris complains to Barney that the old guy beat the living shit out of some mugger.
This guy gets it.
+1
Love it.
Nice. 🙂
The split is urban vs rural.
And the solution imo is to allow states to split up and join the US. That way the Senate could increase exactly as the House should have been allowed to increase a century ago.
One of our national failures was to pretend that the frontier ceased to be a remedy for individual exit. And so we ignored the need for a post-frontier means of delivering that sort of remedy.
But most states are themselves a purple mixture of urban and rural, left and right. Even the most “red” or “blue” states have sizable dissenting minorities.
But for the most part, they don’t live next to each other. Brian is right that the split is mainly urban/rural (or more accurately, big city/rural and small city). It’s easy to picture a People’s Republic of America made up of a constellation of urban shitholes, divorced from a USA for the rest of us.
I’m all for the idea of city states.
Trying to govern a megapolis with 11,000 people per km2 in the same manner as suburbs and towns isn’t practical, and governing suburbs and towns in the manner of population dense urban areas is oppressive.
The problem is for many states, it already is a city-state situation. The Greek city-states included the rural areas that the city-states controlled. The same with Northern Italy during the Renaissance. In fact, most of the wars were about who controlled the hinterland. States like Oregon and Washington, are in all practices far more like the city-states of the past, where a urban elite dictated the course of surrounding rural enclaves that they controlled to support the urbanites who wielded power but didn’t share it.
The big difference between then and now being that the government had rather little impact on the lives of those exurbanites back in the day, mostly restricted to war.
Today the urbanites have much greater reach, and a desire to dictate the lives of all.
“where a urban elite dictated the course of surrounding rural enclaves”
This is the problem we currently have under the central government system, the city state’s power needs to end at its outskirts and vice versa.
The best candidates for this right now would be London, the Northeast megalopolis, the Yangtze Delta Megalopolis, the Kanto-Keihanshin region and the Northern California Megalopolis.
Five different (national) states with their own laws, borders and trade agreements.
Might be worthwhile to test a city-territory on Chicago. Cut them out of Illinois and bounce them back to territorial status until they get their shit together.
Build the Wall.
“Escape from New York” [Kurt Russel, 1981] comes to mind
That’s why they should be allowed to split up and seek their own representation AS A STATE in the Senate.
I constantly hear why CA should become three states.
To the degree that the EPA came into existence because of a burning river in Cleveland, it happened because the state of Ohio refused to give a shit and under the legal doctrine where munis only exist at the sufferance of states they could force the muni to do what the state wanted. But hey – some fucking libertarian believes that states should have the right to secede from the US but oh no a muni doesn’t have the right to secede from a state and use the provisions f the US Constitution to deal with their fellow states via an interstate compact rather than via one-way coercion.
This whole trannie bathroom bullshit was a consequence of a NC CITY wanting to change their muni bathroom law and the NC STATE coercing them that they weren’t allowed to do that because munis don’t have the right to self-govern.
And of course the big-L Libertarian is totally fucking clueless here. Pretending that the ‘state’ state is righteously self-governing itself while the ‘federal’ state is illegitimate and the ‘muni’ state has no rights at all. Because the Paleo narrative is ALWAYS to resurrect the Lost Cause myth and refight the Civil War (without slavery this time). So the state state is the pinnacle of self-governing liberty. And there can be no disagreement with that principle.
“And of course the big-L Libertarian is totally fucking clueless here.”
Which person is that?
Mccardle
Thanks. I thought that’s who you were referring to but wasn’t absolutely sure.
So, we’d have a lot do states with city-states embedded within them?
Not rejecting the idea outright, but for the example you gave, would the city-state then control its own entire watershed? Would they negotiate control of the watershed with the surrounding state?
(It’s not like we don’t already have lots of watersheds in the US that span multiple jurisdictions. And I’m not focusing on questions about water management randomly; watershed rights and management and ownership are actually one of the most inherently political and messy areas of human culture.)
Well I certainly do think there would need to be some pre-determined level at which Congress would consider statehood for sub-state splits. Used to be 50,000 peeps back in the days of federal territories. Maybe 500,000 or more now.
But yeah that would likely mean some states would be entirely urban – others entirely rural – and some mixed. As for what to do with something like watersheds – the Constitution has an answer – interstate compacts.
Which in fact exist currently for watersheds – eg the Colorado River Compact which was, constitutionally, authorized by Congress.
Which could in fact be the exact same governance mechanism for all issues for which states need to (or are coerced to) cooperate with others on issues where they still want to retain legal authority.
“US. That way the Senate could increase exactly as the House”
It’s a Union of states. Not a Union of people.
Stuffing the US Senate just gives more [WE] mobsters power.
Course you already know that. That’s why members of the [WE] mobsters RULE party keep pitching it.
There’s pretty much nobody in the US who advocates letting states split up into more cohesive units so that the flag might have 100+ stars. Even though that’s specifically accounted for in the Constitution.
Likewise, you can count the number of people in the US who think the House should be increased. And WE obviously have no power at all to get that done since it ain’t been done for over a century. Even though the ACTUAL 1st amendment specifically included a provision for the House increasing in size forever
Right; The house should represent population and the Senate represents the States. Pretty sure they are on top of that as it wasn’t that long ago it was announced CA was loosing two seats due to lost population.
1912 – The House is 435 critters. Population – 95 million. Voters in that 1912 election – 14.8 million with maybe 25 million voting eligible.
1920 – The House is 435 critters. Population – 331 million. Voters in that 1920 election – 155 million with maybe 235 million voting eligible.
It is obvious to everyone but you that the House does not represent population. It is a zero sum game with a significant population increase. Which means it is entirely about how elites/parties/incumbents can control representation/elections.
I don’t think adding more Congress critters is the answer considering the level of poor representation the 435 seem to be able to muster for us now. Do we really need to support more people with government taxes?
You are currently supporting 20,000+ staffers in Congress alone. The difference is those 20,000+ are accountable solely to Congresscritters (individually or in committee or in Congress assembled) not to we the people.
Plus one purpose of representation by the people is for them to be able to audit, oversee, etc the budgets that the House is called on to authorize.
In 1912, Federal spending was $3 billion – or $6.9 million per critter.
In 2020, Federal spending is actually unknown but is at least $6 trillion – or $130+ BILLION per critter.
Do you think more – or fewer – accountable critters are needed to perform that function now?
Penny wise pound foolish.
The more members you have the less accountable they are. As it is, most members can’t do much except vote yes or no on a huge omnibus bill. Triple the size of the House and that only gets worse.
Accountability resides with the power of those who can kick out incumbents in an election. Not with the number of critters in the legislature. And the more critters, the smaller the district size, and the more power an individual has over an election outcome
See the Apportionment Act of 1911.
I find it funny we are focusing on the House when you clearly stated stuffing the Senate. Either way; what’s broken in this nation is it’s lack of ability to obey the US Constitution. It’s been well demonstrated that voters (either by fraud) or just ignorance keep electing law-breakers to represent them.
In 2020, Federal spending is actually unknown but is at least $6 trillion – or $130+ BILLION per critter.
Less critters. Less spending. Not more critters to oversee the bloated spending cycle. Do you really think the new folks won’t add to the budget but work within the current budget more efficiently? Ha!
Why not just one critter then?
And if you are looking for an answer, give the state’s congressional body the representative power based on population. Reduce the size of the Federal congress and let each State’s body have to negotiate its need with a limited amount of Federal employees at the Federal level.
1920? I think you mean 2020.
To do as you propose, increase the size of the House; I would require pairing it to repeal of the 17th amendment.
If you want to repeal the 17th, then argue honestly for its repeal.
Article 1 is not an amendment, as it was part of the original Constitution. The 1A is an amendment because it was passed after the Constitution was approved. If you don’t understand the difference I can’t help you. But it does explain a lot about your political views, mainly that they are uninformed.
Or are you referring to a proposed amendment that was never approved but was proposed that would have set automatic increases in representatives as the population increased? Again this can’t be referred to as the actual 1A as it was never ratified, unfortunately. The argument that it’s bad for the number of representatives to increase is in my opinion a faulty one, as the very purpose of representatives is to represent the people, however, because of the artificial cap on the number of districts, representatives now can no longer represent the people, as their districts are much to large (either in population or in land).
Yes that’s the one I’m referring to. And I will call it the 1st since it was sent to the state as Article the First among the 12 amendments – 10 of which became the Bill of Rights (in the order in which their articles were numbered). Article the Second was ratified in 1992 and is now called the 27nd amendment. When Article the First is ratified I will call it whatever you want to call it. Until then I will call it the First.
The point really being that the objections to the Constitution that were raised by the Anti-Federalists included the notion that Congress would set its own rules re representation by the people. They understood that that would be corrupted. Which is exactly what has happened. To the point now where the House of Representatives is now the second LEAST representative legislature on Earth. And they proposed an amendment that would be formula driven not Congress driven. And it fell one state short of ratification – but only because there was a freaking TYPO in that verbal rendering of the formula.
The specific objection by the Anti-Federalists (probably NY Gov George Clinton writing as ‘Cato’) was
It is a very important objection to this government, that the representation consists of so few; too few to resist the influence of corruption, and the temptation to treachery, against which all governments ought to take precautions — how guarded you have been on this head, in your own state constitution, and yet the number of senators and representatives proposed for this vast continent, does not equal those of your own state; how great the disparity, if you compare them with the aggregate numbers in the United States. The history of representation in England, from which we have taken our model of legislation, is briefly this: before the institution of legislating by deputies, the whole free part of the community usually met for that purpose; when this became impossible by the increase of numbers the community was divided into districts, from each of which was sent such a number of deputies as was a complete representation of the various numbers and orders of citizens within them; but can it be asserted with truth, that six men can be a complete and full representation of the numbers and various orders of the people in this state? Another thing [that] may be suggested against the small number of representatives is, that but few of you will have the chance of sharing even in this branch of the legislature; and that the choice will be confined to a very few; the more complete it is, the better will your interests be preserved, and the greater the opportunity you will have to participate in government, one of the principal securities of a free people; but this subject has been so ably and fully treated by a writer under the signature of Brutus, that I shall content myself with referring you to him thereon, reserving further observations on the other objections I have mentioned, for my future numbers
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That has nothing to do with the house increasing in size.
Nope. Split by county. Red keeps the Constitution, build a wall around the blue to contain them.
SCOTUS was suppose to do that … Contain the Power-mad [WE] mobsters “democracy”. But every-time the left elects a judiciary majority (hint hint; FDR) the Constitution is no longer important at all. The left has made no secret of their desire to conquer the USA for a [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire. Even today their answer to everything is the US Constitution is failing and must be conquered more for more Socialism.
And the solution imo is to allow states to split up and join the US. That way the Senate could increase exactly as the House should have been allowed to increase a century ago.
I’d agree that a big part of what we’re looking at here is a failure of the states and US government to be realistic about population migration and its socio-political impact, and being more proactive about changing and adding states as necessary to reflect that evolution. We haven’t had any new states since 1959, which is 64 years at this point. And there’s no way Senators or House reps are going to vote to water down their own influence by adding more seats.
Now, I don’t think making these changes will preserve the US in LONG-TERM. All empires fall apart eventually. But I do think it will in the short-term–say, give us another 40 or 50 years, maybe even longer. Ancient Rome went through several decades of civil war before Augustus, and went through other ones off and on for over 400 years after that even while it controlled the Mediterranean world and southern England during that time.
So what would ultimately be good for the nation in that short-term period will never be done, because it will interfere with the sinecures and influence of those already in charge.
The largest, most obvious divorce-worthy incidents in this country were the COVID-19 lockdowns and vaccine mandates.
From the first fucking line, she chose something that was handled very different from state to state. Surely you can build your argument on something better, like federal bailouts for state pension funds, or people being forced to subsidize healthcare costs in other states.
Svb bailout is a big one too
Californians have always believed the Galaxy revolves around them
I don’t think that is true. When I was a kid, growing up in California, the closest thing to today’s split was a feeing that people in the western United States were more individualist and self-reliant than East Coasters. We viewed the entire West as an undifferentiated place.
(There was also hippies and the counterculture vs squares and the establishment, but that wasn’t as big a thing as media and current nostalgia makes it out to be.)
This whole red state vs blue state thing only goes back to around the Reagan era.
So you’re saying that Californians believed the the entire western United States was California!
LOL
Reagan era electoral map 1980
https://www.270towin.com/1980_Election/interactive_map
Reagan era electoral map 1984
https://www.270towin.com/1984_Election/interactive_map
Come on, all of us true libertarians know that everything bad was caused by Reagan, Bush or Trump.
Didn’t say that or mean to imply that.
Honored by your tribute parody of me, by the way.
Nobody said it had anything to do with you.
His name is literally Mike Tiresome.
That would be like saying Rev. Arthur L. Kuckland has nothing to do with Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland.
Well, you are rather tiresome.
I was kinda referring to the original comment by McCardle (from LA i think) where the covid response (by California) is deemed to be the basis for a ‘national divorce’ (where McCardle would be on the wrong side of that line and would presumably be ethnically cleansed out of existence (which is how actual secessions work)).
But my sentiment re California hubris/arrogance goes back much longer – to at least Grapes of Wrath. Possibly to Californicus who rewrote Copernicus
“But my sentiment re California hubris/arrogance goes back much longer – to at least Grapes of Wrath. Possibly to Californicus who rewrote Copernicus”
I’m not seeing it. There is a sense that California was a nice place to move to going back to Gold Rush days, then enhanced by images of orange groves, movie studios, and surfing and beaches. But it genuinely was nice to live in California up until at least the 1970s, and I don’t recall much arrogance.
See the year CA went from a Red State to a Blue State.
More to the point, the cancerous tumors popped up in the mid-late 60s, and metastasized from there. However, the main cause of that was extremely left-wing east coasters migrating out to the state during and after that time. Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi were both from New York and Baltimore, respectively, for instance. Current attention whore state rep and bug chaser Scott Weiner is from Philadelphia.
The lockdowns were handled by the states. But Biden absolutely did do a vaccine mandate. It was struck down by the courts, but so close to the deadline that lots of people ended up getting it for fear of losing their jobs.
Yes, that wasn’t exactly a strong start…
Ideologically, I have no problem with a “national divorce”, but if it’s anything like Brexit was in the UK, the problems will arise from the lies necessary to get people to vote for it. Thus, an impractical and disadvantageous “divorce” was popularly chosen (barely), with the details kept purposely vague and potential difficulties papered over with obfuscation, lies and squirrel-sightings elsewhere.
Show me a US split would work, and I’d probably vote for it. But it looks like the proponents can’t even agree whether the split should be on a state or a county level.
“… are viable and laudable libertarian strategies for resisting tyranny; none are national divorce.”
This. No compromise. No f’ing “divorce.” Pure silliness.
i’m totally in favor of the divorce. half the country is mentally retarded and i’m tired of living with retards. the left & the right are completely different species and there is no way to reconcile. the worldviews are 180 degrees from one another. the only way forward is to split. it will either be peaceful or not but it will eventually happen.
The problem with divorce is, without the other party to keep them in check, both parties will become more and more radical and tyrranical.
Democrats will ban conversion therapy for all ages.
Republicans will ban gender-affirming care for all ages.
Democrats will censor social media platforms.
Republicans will make it illegal for social media platforms to moderate content.
Democrats will eliminate freedom of speech entirely.
Both parties will continue most existing healthcare regulations and the FDA, although Republicans will get rid of the ACA and hopefully also CON laws, but they definitely won’t get rid of occupational licensing.
Democrats will expand healthcare regulations and will implement universal healthcare.
There will be no libertarian country in a national divorce. Both sides will be authoritarian.
Although the Democrats are definitely worse.
Come to think of it, this doesn’t sound that bad. And it will eliminate the authoritarian policies which exist solely because the other side supports the libertarian policy in this instance.
In more than fifty years, the modern libertarian movement has convinced less than 5% of the population that “Liberty Works and Liberty is Right.” What makes anyone think libertarians wouldn’t be destroyed in the cross-fire of “national divorce?
Libertarianism is already crumbling from within because of the rise of populist conservatives in libertarian clothing. The most blatant example being the Mises Caucus destruction of the Libertarian Party.
Caw Caw
There was/is nothing to “crumble” or “destroy”. Members of the LP were always an uneasy alliance of libertine leftists and small government conservatives. The libertine leftists (who you represent) never were libertarian to begin with; you are just useful idiots for progressives.
The majority of Americans who lean libertarian likely register as independents and mostly vote Republican anyway. The LP is a worthless side-show.
^This; Throw the RINO’S out of the Republican party and they’d be the Libertarians.
Tell me you know nothing about the lp without telling me you know nothing about the lp
This “crude tribalism” is also what libertarianism is all about. It is how America used to function.
Restoring the original kind of federalist form of government is effectively a national divorce: common defense, freedom of movement, free trade, and little else.
Progressives are not willing to co-exist under those conditions. They have become “national socialists”, i.e., socialists who want to impose their will at the national level.
If you look at the graduates of our top law schools, the court system is becoming a strong tool for imposing progressive ideology on the nation. It’s a historical accident that we don’t currently have a 6-3 progressive majority on SCOTUS, a court composed of “wise minorities” handing down judgments not based on law but based on their “lived experiences”.
Civil disobedience and agorism will land you in jail for years without a trial these days.
Civil disobedience and agorism will land you in jail for years without a trial these days.
If you’re on the wrong side, yes. Even talking about such things from the wrong side can destroy your life.
+10000000; best post yet.
“This crude tribalism is the most disturbing feature of national divorce discourse.”
This “crude tribalism” is also what libertarianism is all about
—–
Anarchists, not believing governments are sensible, will have no sensible *government policy* on offer. “Governments bad, m’kay?” It’s useless to discuss basic government sovereignty issues with them.
Reason writers all the more so, as they’re also intellectually dishonest Shills for Hire to the ruling class.
People with fundamentally different values *on the justified use of force* should not be in the same legal polity. It’s not “crude tribalism”. Calling it such is Not An Argument, it’s an emotional trigger to shut off the minds of anyone similarly indoctrinated.
That people who believe in moral rules that would have them shooting at each other should not try to live under the same legal regime is just common sense. Not so common among anarchists, but anarchists gonna anarchist. It is what it is.
If you think you have a right and a duty to shoot me for blasphemy against your god, and I think I have a right to blaspheme against your god, and a duty to *shoot back* when you try to shoot me for such blasphemy, we should not be neighbors.
This is not complicated. Anyone not blinded by dogma such as “borders are bad, m’kay?” can see this.
Federalism is a way out. Again, grown-ups without a rule to dominate all can see this. You know, libertarians.
But totalitarians gonna total, and the American Left simply can’t stand the idea that someone, somewhere, is not bound by the laws that they think are just and proper. At least when that someone is a White American. They must rule the evil White Americans, and force them to live by Social Justice.
They will *always* crush freedom and separate rules when Evil White Americans want to live in ways they disapprove of.
They have no principles to discuss. Only rhetoric for power.
There’s no deontology. No rule consequentialism. Only consequentialism. Getting their way is Right. *Always*. That’s their “Social Justice”.
Well said. Yet a consequence of [WE] mob RULES democracy without any Supreme Law recognition. The left still haven’t figured out that [WE] mob RULES ideology doesn’t guarantee any Rights or Justice.
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It’s simplistic to think that there is just a “single polity”, that liberty is either atomized at the individual level or doesn’t exist.
We all live in many polities. In principle, it’s fine to have a federal level that guarantees freedom of movement and trade, while having a local level that imposes strict rules on neighborliness and day-to-day life. People who have diametrically opposed and incompatible views with their neighbors can still live in such arrangements. That’s how the US was founded. That’s how the EU was intended to work.
But you can’t live in such a federation with people whose objective is world domination and using any means available to impose their ideology on you, whether those people are Chinese communist or American progressives/democratic socialists.
“Progressives are not willing to co-exist under those conditions. They have become “national socialists”, i.e., socialists who want to impose their will at the national level.”
That is the source of the problem. The only way forward, short of a “national divorce” and possible armed conflicts, is the adhere to a truly federalist system; this will necessitate the elimination of much of the federal bureaucracy, such as the ATF, the Department of Education, the IRS, …to name a few. If a government can take money from you at the point of a gun, you are not even marginally free.
The national divorce idea is weak. Probably far more trouble than it is worth. Better to choose a better place to live and/or elect more libertarian minded representatives. I feel fortunate to live in NH. Most people don’t pay any attention to politics and governance. Most of the ones that do are pretty cooperative and polite.
I feel fortunate to not be literally surrounded by statists on all sides.
Federal taxes, social security, EPA, DOE, the IRS, Title IX, and lots of other issues still infringe on your liberties. And hiding in NH won’t save you.
Yes, as I commented above, all of those will have to go.
And given all the oxen that will have to be gored, I foresee having to literally fight for this.
“National divorce thus implies a reversion to a kind of pre-Enlightenment politics. It jettisons the equal protection of individual rights for a political order based around a reductive question: Are you friend or foe? “
No dipshit, that’s exactly what we have now, thanks to the Fascists in charge. We don’t just have a two-tiered justice system, and two standards of justice for politicos, we now even have murderous aggressors as victims and victims who deserve whatever happens to them
https://twitter.com/laralogan/status/1644547444884094977?t=VM-Xt71Ju8W8rp5IFHCY5Q&s=19
Political prisoner, Jake Lang, was arrested on charges related to January 6th when he was 25-years-old. He has now had his 26th, 27th and (today) his 28th birthday behind bars WITHOUT TRIAL. He has spent much of that time in solitary confinement, the most extreme punishment.
This should upset every American. It violates the constitution & is a shame on all of us. It could also happen to any of us – and it will if we do not stop it now. To Jake I can only say, I am sorry. Stay strong & know that millions are on your side. Vaya con dios,
Then he shouldn’t have stormed the Capitol. Interesting that you have no such sympathies for transpersons expressing their first amendment rights at the SF university disturbance.
So those who stormed the TN capitol should be held in jail for 3 years without trial?
Also, you have no 1A right to assult people.
Die.
I think he is parodying liarson.
Passing on the sentence is acceptable then.
It’s interesting watching you try to parody me. You are saying things that are similar to what I would say, but off. And off in a way that reveals how your own ideological bent keeps you from comprehending the points I have been making. You are like me but reflected in a funhouse mirror that tells us a lot about the shape of the mirror.
So, for example, I would not characterize the people protesting at the San Francisco event as merely exercising their first amendment rights. It sounds like at least one person at the event committed an assault, and that’s not cool.
I would call Nardz out of if he were inconsistent between his statements about January 6th protestors and the protestors at the SF speech. You got that right, except for the part that I would never unmute Nardz.
Muted. Buh Bye.
That’s a shame, but it’s your prerogative. It’s not going to help you be the best parodist you can be.
Lol, doesn’t get it. So obtuse.
If he wasn’t, he wouldn’t be a leftist shitsack.
Laursen, only one word describes this: “WHOOOOSH!”
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Reason is totally cool with this. And they speak for libertarians.
How is this different than how other people held without bail who have been accused of violent criminal activity are treated? Lang certainly seems to have access to the media and outside world, so incommunicado he is not. Is he still in solitary confinement?
He should be treated the same as any other person held in pre-trial detention, in my view. Treating him worse would serve no purpose but to feed the popular martyrdom narrative.
Yes, he should receive a speedy trial, and three years is too long. There’s something going wrong, though it’s hard to pinpoint the cause. It seems to be that both sides are constantly filing motions about all sorts of things. Maybe there should just be a limit on that.
But there are pictures of Lang carrying a baseball bat, a riot shield, a gas mask, and a heavy leather jacket. Based on the pictures, it seems like he should serve jail time.
https://twitter.com/Oilfield_Rando/status/1644477891806126082?t=orBQUcXcTxx253EBYnfgCA&s=19
Shoot a Trump supporter who has mace, leftist DA’s won’t even prosecute you.
Shoot a left wing rioter with an AK pointed at you, a leftist DA will put you away with a leftist jury.
Bad, bad, BAD times ahead. There’s no happy ending to this.
Set up a CHAZ/CHOP zone where you rape, rob, and muder people is A-Ok. Take over an unoccupied ranger station, get shot in the back.
I don’t think you’re even going to have to go as far as taking a ranger station to get shot in the back now…
Nobody was raped, robbed or murdered at the CHAZ jamboree.
Summer of love.
Just get rid of the left. Then good times will ensue.
https://twitter.com/DissidentSoaps/status/1644519797177339906?t=bqGybvL40ePDDEtjlVfKCA&s=19
In case you haven’t paid attention to high profile trials lately, (Chauvin, McMichaels, Mackey) the juries are comprised of people who lie about being impartial during selection, then brag about being partial after the conviction.
Conservatives sympathetic to the defendants say as much during jury selection and get struck by the prosecutor.
https://twitter.com/wayofftheres/status/1644500411485757442?t=Gm9RLst8-C8_AZKe_74K6w&s=19
This is an intentional chilling effect, them telling you tax cattle that you will not defend yourself. You will take abuse or death at the hands of your masters.
[Link]
https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1644163253868609538?t=UQnJrJQHq7b38X5yztmPMQ&s=19
This nation was built on peaceful protest. No elected official should lose their job simply for raising their voice – especially when they’re doing it on behalf of our children.
What happened in Tennessee is the latest example of a broader erosion of civility and democratic norms. Silencing those who disagree with us is a sign of weakness, not strength, and it won’t lead to progress.
Leading a mob storming the legislature is “peaceful protest” and “simply…raising [your] voice.” Punishing it, on the other hand, is “erosion of civility and democratic norms.”
Pretty fucking Orwellian…
https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1644539175994105856?t=eYS5PQqB9y3iloArPE6gJA&s=19
“I believe that the Biden administration should ignore this ruling”: Rep. @AOC reacts to Texas judge’s abortion pill ruling
[Link]
https://twitter.com/aimeeterese/status/1644658728334147585?t=1pUJ1b_Mui_wQzP4t8NOmw&s=19
Daniel Perry shot Antifa/BLM rioter who pointed an [AK47] at him while at least 24 rioters surrounded his vehicle (that’s how many sets of fingerprints were lifted from it). The prosecutors said he should have “driven away”, which he couldn’t & besides he had no duty to retreat.
I guess Perry should have allowed them to drag him out of his vehicle & beat him unconscious… as happened to Adam Haner in Portland.
Hey remember when libtards insisted that Kyle Rittenhouse was doing something wrong by being present at a riot with an AR 15? Garrett Foster (who Perry shot), ignored police warnings re how he carried his AK 47, wore a neoprene vest under his T-shirt & carried a club & a knife.
It’s different for Foster, a fat libtard “ally”, an unemployed antifa boogaloo boy with a black disabled girlfriend who cried in media & court, whereas Perry was Uber driver working overtime & a full time Army sergeant stationed at Fort Hood, so he’s the bad guy, obviously.
Oh by the way Austin police determined it was a justifiable homicide, but it was brought to grand jury by progressive prosecutor, against the wishes of the lead detective, who testified that the DA was engaged in both witness tampering and suppression of exculpatory evidence.
That’s right, the “decarceration” people literally overruled the determination of detectives, crime scene investigators, forensics etc. because they were so keen to prosecute Perry & make an example of him. Really makes you think. Maybe they not so into equity re “decarceration”?
Actually they are. This is what “equity” means. Punishing anyone who believes in the old system. The one where you had a right to self-defence & didn’t have to worship black people, let rioters attack you, or be self-flagellating/self hating if you’re white, in order to survive.
[Links]
This is what drives me nuts about these DAs and pretty much any Reasonista who would defend their office.
These guys are not decriminalizing shit. They are ideologically criminalizing people of the wrong tribe. They make it impossible for the police to defend a city, and then punish people who dare defend themselves when caught in the thick of it.
This is the path to revolution. I was in Mexico this week, and a bunch of people (likely drug dealers) were found washed up at the resort next door. Every Mexican there knows that the government is inept and corrupt, but they also know that if they play their cards right, they will be relatively safe- don’t do drugs, don’t fuck with the cartels, and if you are in government, take your fat bribes.
But when the anarchy and punishment is clearly ideological, people don’t keep their heads down. They have their own ideology and your attempts to enforce it are seen as unjust. They will eventually fight back.
Didn’t Reason post an article bemoaning the dead antifa goon’s death?
Yes.
Yes, it was pretty bad. And for what it is worth, my view then really doesn’t change much. This episode (and the Rittenhouse episode) is the completely predictable consequence of a government abdicating its responsibility to enforce the rule of law. When the government decides it won’t stop lawless behavior, you find behavioral norms enforced in duels and shootouts.
https://reason.com/2020/07/27/the-libertarian-party-mourns-garrett-foster-activist-killed-at-a-black-lives-matter-protest/?comments=true#comment-8372671
As a libertarian, I appreciate that there are tradeoffs between “Heavy handed police force” and “everyone fend for themselves”. I actually prefer to go closer to the latter. But this isn’t what happened here. The government is sending the message that it won’t defend the rights of certain people, and will punish them for doing it themself. That is a horrible place to be.
“Antifa/BLM rioter”
Cite?
Just give California back to Mexico and out of our hair.
We’re too dependent on the Port at Long Beach to do that.
Not as much anymore. People are starting to make the trip to Texas because Long Beach is so fucked up.
The fact that this seriously impedes Chinese imports is an additional benefit!
If we could survive without East Asian imports, that might be true.
We can easily survive without Chinese imports.
I don’t favor a hostile Marxist state on our border. Besides, why should we give them anything?
You mean both borders.
https://twitter.com/aimeeterese/status/1644697874893242369?t=OF9C3A1gLy9G2cC8Gr5jBQ&s=19
Jose Garza, DA from Travis County, Texas, received about $600,000 from the Soros-backed Texas Justice and Safety PAC.
Here he is giving a shout out to a dead antifa Boogaloo boy who pointed an AK 47 at Daniel Perry during BLM riots, and was subsequently shot in self-defence.
But oh look, here he is giving lenient sentences to violent murderers who vote democrat. . .
“ Anthony John Diaz, 39, was dragged under the bus over 100 feet and pronounced dead at the scene.”
But Garza intervened with a plea deal lowering charges for the intoxicated bus driver, so that they didn’t even spend a single day in jail.
“ Garza had no experience as a prosecutor when he was elected last year in the aftermath of George Floyd’s death in Minneapolis police custody and nationwide protests against police. He promised to end the over-prosecution of people of color.”
Skills? ❌
Merit? ❌
Ideology ✅
What matters is that he criminalises the police, creates chaos, destroys evidence, and does nothing about the rising homicide rate, while going easy on criminals and criminalising those who defend themselves. This is the progressive agenda in action.
“ Garza’s office placed further pressure on her, including a credible threat, at which point the A.D.A alleges she felt she had no choice but to resign.
Others working in the DA’s office have anonymously shared that, since Garza’s election, a “culture of fear” has developed…”
A “culture of fear” will always develop when you let militant ideologues run a system they DON’T BELIEVE IN & ACTIVELY SEEK TO DESTROY. They don’t aim for fairness, justice, rules, order, or punishing criminals & keeping people safe. They stoke fear & create chaos on purpose.
[Links]
1. Gay
2. POC
3. Womanx
Those are the top three criteria, especially with millennials and younger, when electing someone to office. Experience and competence don’t even compute.
Give libertarians there own country and within 20 years, you would have a left vs right and with 50 years, the same thing we have going on in the USA now. It might look different but it would split into multiple parties.
Basically what Reason libertarians push is in effect in California’s big cities.
1. Illegals, check and heavily subsidized
2. decriminalized drugs, check
3. police on a leash , check, you can help yourself to $900 worth of merchandising anywhere. It’s like a coupon.
4. Ass sex, check, they even parade it about.
5. No zoning, check. you can pitch a tent or anchor your shopping cart anywhere.
6. Guaranteed income, check about to explode with reparations
7. Abortions, check
8. Gender mutilation on children, check
9. No icky republicans, check. check, check and mate.
If that’s how you want to live, just vote Democrat. Not only do they offer all the degeneracy the Libertarians do, they throw in a free lunch and a healthcare plan to boot.
Financial collapse is emotional. Two of the largest cities in the country should be in bankruptcy and U.S. is on the path. A lifelong constitutional and civil libertarian, Democrat, Alan Deshowitz quote “it’s an extremely dangerous time in America”. The brutality and moral depravity of Fascism and Socialism should be thrown into the dustbin of history.
https://www.truthinaccounting.org/news/detail/financial-state-of-the-cities-2023
The point here is that not only is a divorce impossible in this context, something similar to a divorce would NOT result in more freedom for the two parties. It would result in red cities, states and regions; and blue cities, states and regions. Unless you can figure out how to end up with at least half a dozen “states” (christian republican, social democrat, libertarian, communist, anarchist, fascist, colored, etc.) there would still be no place after such a division where free-marketers and MYOBs could live in freedom. An additional point is that there are still some things better done by a large central government, such as national defense. Right now there is no other military in the world that would dare to attack the United States of America. How much security would a deeply divided North America have in the future?
“It would result in red cities, states and regions; and blue cities, states and regions.”
Why would this necessarily be less free? If people were free to chose whether to live in the blue city or the red city, wouldn’t they be free?
“An additional point is that there are still some things better done by a large central government, such as national defense.”
Joint alliances do not require you to have a single national defense force.
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Nor do we have nearly as much to fear from a foreign adversary as we do from our domestic enemy who happens to hold all power in this country
We can – and should! – have fear of both. It’s not mutually exclusive.
Some of us have an IQ in the triple digits.
Unfortunately, some make your life possible.
If you think you can be free in a Red Zone or a Blue Zone I think you’re kidding yourself. If you think the Blue Zone and the Red Zone could agree on a joint alliance, I also think you’re kidding yourself.
We already know that red zones and blue zones are not monolithic, so you seem to be pretty simplistic. The red zones of, say, South Dakota, Wyoming, and Alabama have different priorities and flavors. The only reason we classify them as one group is our two party system.
And you can easily band together between red zones and purple zones for mutual defense. The fucking United States and France have been part of a mutual defense pact for over 50 years. If we can get along with frogs, some south dakotans and indianans can get along with Floridians.
Where would Zack move to if there were no red states?
Oh Zach, Zach.
“Balkanizing heavily armed Americans into highly polarized partisan tribes who couldn’t possibly “share a country” isn’t a promising formula for a peaceful separation.”
This is, of course silly. The Balkanization has already happened. Go look at a red-blue map, and you will see that by and large the country is split.
This is largely the problem with Weissmueller’s whole argument. He suggests that a divorce will suddenly create problems that already exist. He thinks that a divorce will result in groups of people of one political stripe forcing others to do their bidding. How is that different than our current situation where large groups of Americans are forced to suffer the whims of a majority in Capital City thousands of miles away?
Weissmueller says that he could pick up and move to another state to escape some lockdowns, but he couldn’t escape federal vaccine mandates. He doesn’t mention that, probably because he doesn’t care that the Federal Government was in the process of forcing people to stick needles in their arms based on bad data and corrupt cronyism. But note that this simple fact undermines his basic argument.
Weissmueller then goes on to argue that SCotUS is an important check on state tyranny, without noting that the current leaders of our Federal government are working to undermine that check with court packing and other intimidation.
And here we see what is, frankly, the root of Weissmueller’s problem:
” Who defines the community and its concerns? Look around the world for your answer: whichever group claims sovereignty over the land and has the violent means to back up that claim.”
This is the telling bit of his argument. This is always the case- whether we are talking about the Status Quo, or we are talking about a divorce. Whether you are talking about a fully independent Nation-State or a giant Nation like the US, it is exactly the same that sovereign group is in control. So why does Weissmueller think that this is an argument against divorce?
That’s the trick. You see, in his quest for freedom, Zach had to move in with rednecks. He moved from California to Florida to get freedom from the Team Blue that locked him down. But he doesn’t like those freedom-loving Floridians. He fears them, and wants the same team blue tribe he fled to protect him.
All the problems that Weissmueller has with divorce are problems we live with today. He fears Team Red oppressing him unconstitutionally in a divorce (even though Florida has its own Constitution). So he instead wants the Status Quo where his tribe is in control and can kick team Red around. He wails about the Mises Caucus saying mean things about SCotUS while he supports a status quo where Tribe Blue is actively working to undermine that SCotUS.
The only difference I can see between Weissmueller’s words and McCardles is that Weissmueller is afraid of what happens when the Blues can’t tell Florida what to do, and McCardle thinks the blues need to stop telling Florida what to do.
Nobody was forced to take the vaccine.
That is mostly true. Thanks, Brother Mike, although if you are going to parody me accurately you should understand that I don’t usually make unqualified, categorical statements that use words like “nobody”.
If they wanted to do your usual routine, here is what would happen:
In order to deflect from the fact that people were coerced into sticking needles in their arms by forcing choices on them like “lose your job or get the jab” or “give your kid the jab, or home school them” or “force your kids to be berated by agents of the state in front of their peers or give them the jab” you will try to argue a very, very, very narrow definition of force. Basically, if little johnny does not have a gun to his head, it isn’t force-force.
It is absurd of course. The government wouldn’t be able to do these things if it didn’t have monopolies on force that allowed it to bully schools, businesses and others. And very few people would object to saying “That boss forced his secretary to give him sex” when in fact the secretary always had the option to quit her job.
But the semantic nitpicking is disingenuous. You aren’t looking for clarity. By trying to make this argument about whether or not a guy with a gun is “using force”, you distract from the reprehensible, anti-freedom behaviors that your tribe is engaged in. Your entire purpose is to discredit people by saying that they are technically wrong on some very specific point, without acknowledging that the problem is much bigger than that.
It’s all a rhetorical tactic to refute “the message” with “a technicality” (and hoping that no one notices what is unsaid).
Nah, way off. Not how I would comment on vaccine mandates at all.
It’s interesting that you made up a whole fictional scenario of how I would argue about something which doesn’t match what I would do at all, AND THEN went on to argue against the fictional argument.
It’s hilarious that you think this is somehow not an example of how you would do things. Let’s take a stroll through time and see how this tactic works:
Narrative: The greater issue with Mike and his tribe.
Technicality: Some smaller, debatable point.
Mike: Ackshewally, here is a very narrow technicality I will argue. See? No one should listen to you guys.
Left unsaid: Even if that debatable technicality were as Mike says, the narrative is still true.
Example One: Mike and Rolling Stone
https://reason.com/2022/10/02/a-belated-vindication-for-school-reopeners-2/?comments=true#comment-9729187
Narrative: Mike is a disingenuous poster who will lie to distract from the thread.
Technicality: For example, there was the time you lied about ever reading Rolling Stone.
Mike: You are all liars, I NEVER said I never read Rolling Stone. Your entire narrative is proven wrong.
Left Unsaid: Mike did in fact lie, but the poster misremembered his lie. That technicality doesn’t change the fact that Mike still lied, and was caught being a disingenuous liar.
You accuse me of focusing on “some smaller, debatable point.” And then you dredge up some stupid thread about whether I have ever read Rolling Stone magazine or not. That’s about as petty and small as one can get.
Very interesting tactic, Mike. “I don’t ever do this, and if you supply evidence that I do this, it is petty.”
Please. Just pretend I’m muted again, ffs.
Really sad. I was enjoying chatting with you on another thread about AI, but I guess it is important for you to be the cataloguer of my supposed trolling. That’s cool, hope it makes you popular with the likes of JesseAz and Mother’s Lament.
“but I guess it is important for you to be the cataloguer of my supposed trolling.”
Translation: “I came to Overt’s thread talking shit and got caught, so now I have to play the victim.”
Here is a hint: It is more important for me to not waste my time dealing with gaslighting bullshit. YOU claimed that you didn’t engage in this behavior. And now you are acting like it is some sin that I provide proof that you do so. Who do you think you are kidding? Certainly not anyone reading this thread.
Yes, I have a doc with links to other comment threads. I find it is better than re-writing the same arguments over and over again. For example, rather than re-write my views on the morality of forced vaccination, it is easier for me to refer to or quote from my summarized views here:
https://reason.com/2021/08/19/you-staying-at-home-is-the-future-unvaccinated-punishers-want/?comments=true&#comment-9056503
And I realized after about my 5th conversation with you that this was the only way to deal with you. Be honest with yourself, Mike (we already know the truth)- you’d still be here crying foul if I hadn’t provided proof. And that’s why I have an archive- to save my time.
TL;DR: If you didn’t make conversations so tiresome with disingenuous bullshit, I wouldn’t have links of you serving up disingenuous bullshit. *shrug*
You have a creepy archive, too?
For someone who prides himself on keeping track of my activities, seems like you would put more effort into making sure you comprehend my points and recap accurately.
But you obviously don’t care about that part. Like JesseAz, you say I said things I didn’t, misstate and mischaracterize what I have said, and just make up stuff.
For example, your claim that I at some point claimed that transgender ideology isn’t happening. I have never said such a thing. It is interesting that you tried to slip that claim in, by the way, providing no saved links to my past comments from your dossier on me. Because there are no comments where I said any such thing.
“You have a creepy archive, too?”
You can insist that it is creepy all you want, Mike. That doesn’t make it so. There is nothing wrong with keeping a list of citations, especially for people like yourself who always demand a cite.
Your transparent squirming is delicious, though. You have abandoned debating whether you play these games, and have moved on to non sequitur. “Don’t listen to Overt, guys! I know I always try to gaslight you people by demanding cites for my previous behavior, but anyone who provides these cites is creepy!”
“For example, your claim that I at some point claimed that transgender ideology isn’t happening”
Keep waiving those hands and people may be distracted, but probably not. As I said in my response below, this is just another attempt to pick on a tiny detail and distract from the message.
Let’s be clear: The exact sentence started with “Set aside the fact that…”. So I was actually saying that your evolving views on the matter AREN’T GERMANE to the argument. And so what do you do? Insist that we argue about that unrelated point.
But to clarify, I was flippantly summarizing the sentence directly before that- that you have gone from “No doctor in the US will perform genital surgery on a minor” (i.e. “those things”) to, “No doctor recently will perform genital surgery on someone under 17”.
But it doesn’t matter. My point still stands because what you are arguing is a tangent that is not fucking important to the point: that you argue unrelated tangents in an attempt to derail debates away from the message at hand.
Lol. Way to reinforce my points, Mike.
Anyway, fuck off.
Maybe I’ll unmute you next time you make comments on an apolitical topic line the AI recipe blog post. You had interesting things to say and you didn’t act like an asshole.
Mike thinks this is some sort of threat. Like he was actually worth conversing with or something.
And maybe I’ll stop replying to your disingenuous gaslighting when you stop being a disingenuous gaslighter. *shrug*
“That’s cool, hope it makes you popular with the likes of JesseAz and Mother’s Lament”
Overt’s always been my hero, even when he’s not mocking your pettifogging and habitual dishonesty, Mike.
It must be hard to imagine a poster that garners admiration from others, when everyone here absolutely loathes you, Mike.
If you’d spend less time indulging in cheap sophistry and pushing narratives and you might find less disdain aimed your way.
I’ll be honest. I wish we had the level of conversation we used to have prior to 2016. I don’t like the flame wars. When the more caustic people on the right and left showed up, I regularly bemoaned them until I realized that I was never going to make things better again. And so I decided to just try and write the posts, and have the debates I want to have. This often means writing my thoughts in a monologue and hoping someone replies. I even tried to cultivate conversations with people like Soldier or Chemjeff who don’t align with me, but were willing to discuss things. And even though I am certain that neither will agree with me in the end, I find our conversations to be meaningful explorations of where conservative- and liberal- libertarian(esque) people remain divided.
Now I admit that I am only human, and that I sometime slip. But overall, this is the philosophy I follow and that philosophy has three major limits:
1) SPB – because he trafficked in kiddy porn on this site, and I believe that calls to shun him are the appropriate response to that behavior.
2) I will also respond in kind to people trying to turn one of my threads into a flame war.
3) I will always call Mike out on his bullshit, because he suckered me into thinking he was interested in real conversations several years ago. And after engaging with him several times in good faith, I realized that he plays the bullshit games that I referenced above.
I find Mike to be worse than the shit-flingers on this site. I can recognize shit-flinging easily and skip past it. But Mike feigns conversation, when in fact he is just trolling. And I think this disingenuous rhetorical style is worse to good conversation than your standard trolling. It is forum fraud- posing as a reasonable collaborative conversationalist when in fact you are there to create chaos.
Example #2: Mike and the Gender Transition Smoke Screen.
https://reason.com/2022/11/22/alabama-jails-woman-for-endangering-her-fetus-she-wasnt-pregnant/?comments=true#comment-9804877
Narrative: Transgender advocates are on a long term campaign to push children into life-altering, permanent, often unproven, and possibly dangerous gender transitions.
Technicality: Minors are having their genitals mutilated for this cause.
Mike: Ackshewally, no person under the age of 18…I mean 17 has gotten bottom surgery done….I mean, well, maybe sometime a year or two ago…but there were changes made and you can’t prove to me that people have had bottom surgery done in the last 5…I mean 2….I mean 1.5 years.
See? No one should listen to you guys.
Left unsaid: Set aside that over the past months Mike has gone from “None of this is happening” to “These very specific things have not happened in X amount of time”. Even *IF* bottom surgery was not happening, it doesn’t invalidate the narrative. We have the emails from high up officials like Biden’s Assistant Health Secretary pushing for more leniency*. We have multiple examples of minors getting top surgery, and getting hormone treatments that are permanent, life-altering, unproven, possibly dangerous medical procedures. But Mike wants to shout about that one technicality, because if he can somehow get the comments swirling about that one point, he can keep the focus off the overall narrative (which is still true).
*= It is noteworthy that in that email where Levine is pushing for advocacy and more leniency, the conversation ADMITS that bottom surgery is happening at least on 17 year olds.
I have never ever taken the “none of this is happening” position.
Oh Mike, don’t ever change.
This is example 3 of Mike doing EXACTLY the same thing.
Notice that he has picked one, very specific semantic debate to focus on. He wants to argue about whether or not he ever said, “None of this is happening.”
Even if I were to agree that in fact he said something more nuanced, it doesn’t change the rest of the narrative. Mike has been saying very nuanced, carefully chosen verbiage and trying to pick fights about that to distract from the narrative. And that is exactly what he just tried doing to distract from the narrative AGAIN.
His lawyerly niggling is so pervasive that I don’t think even he gets it.
So, my actual response when I saw the comment (which I only just now saw was made by you) is I skipped over it because it didn’t catch my interest.
I certainly wouldn’t have replied “Nobody was forced to take the vaccine” because (a) your comment barely mentioned vaccines, (b) it isn’t true that nobody was forced to take the vaccine.
Basically, if little johnny does not have a gun to his head, it isn’t force-force.
YES. THAT’S RIGHT. THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.
That is the only libertarian definition of force that could possibly work, that is consistent with a broad understanding of property rights and a correct understanding of liberty.
It is impermissible force if all choice is taken away from the victim. Because that places the discussion squarely on the initiator of the force, where it belongs.
Once you start broadening the definition of “impermissible force” to include not just what the aggressor is doing, but also on the FEELINGS of the victim – when the victim really does have choice, but the choices are uncomfortable – then it all breaks down and you wind up with the left-wing excuse of “society made me do it”.
For example: What is the difference *in principle* between a private employer saying “get vaccinated or lose your job”, and “wear a tie to work or lose your job”? Or “show up at 8am or lose your job”? OR “don’t smoke pot or lose your job, and we’ll make you prove it by making you pee into a cup”? OR “get vaccinated for mumps, measles, polio, everything EXCEPT covid, or lose your job” (like in many health care settings)? The only difference is the feelings of the ‘victim’. In all cases it’s the employer putting a potentially difficult choice in front of the employee. The difference is how the employee perceives that threat, how difficult it really is or not to that particular person. Wearing a tie? No big deal. Making me not smoke pot? THE OUTRAGE! Right?
Your whole argument is just special pleading. You don’t like how the vaccine was forced onto people. And to the extent that the vaccine was forced BY THE GOVERNMENT, then I am right there with you. But when it comes to private individuals and private companies making that choice, then the correct libertarian position is to protect their property rights to make that choice if they wish; and to protect the rights of employees to freely accept or refuse that choice when presented to them.
The problem was that it wasn’t *really* the private employer saying it. It was the federal government saying it. The difference being that even if you quit and went somewhere else – even in a totally different field – you’d be guaranteed to run into the same thing. Even if you had your own business solely owned by you, it’s not like business owners were exempt. It wasn’t “get vaccinated or lose your job”, it was “get vaccinated or lose ALL jobs”.
But one obvious difference is that you can take the tie off when you get home. Even for the pot smoking, you can at least start again if you get a different job. You can’t get unvaccinated when you go home, or when you quit. It’s permanent.
“The problem was that it wasn’t *really* the private employer saying it. It was the federal government saying it.”
Depends on the specific case. Federal contractor: it’s being imposed by Federal policy. Cruise ship or hospital: the company has inherent reasons to want all employees vaccinated. Other cases: hard to determine because there was a government mandate but the employer would have voluntarily imposed a vaccination policy on their employees, anyway, even in the absence of the government mandate.
That last case is the most interesting. Because sometimes the actual way it goes down is that the business wants to impose a mandate, and they want a government mandate declared to give them cover when any of their employees and customers complain.
I saw a dynamic like that with local small businesses where I live when it came to mask mandates. When a customer complained, they could point to the city-imposed rule and tell the customer, “Hey, it’s not us saying this!”
“Depends on the specific case. Federal contractor: it’s being imposed by Federal policy. Cruise ship or hospital: the company has inherent reasons to want all employees vaccinated”
Notice Mike using hair splitting to weasel around again. His original argument was to insist that it was “mostly true” that no one was forced to vaccinate. And so he tries to get us arguing about “hard to determine” cases.
To be clear: We don’t need to argue about the “hard to determine” cases. The very clear cases of *every corporation that has government contractors* prove that Mike was not honest when he said it’s “mostly true” that people weren’t being forced. But by declaring what is a “more interesting” discussion, he is trying to distract from his perfidy until the thread dies.
This is why I keep records of Mike’s tactics. Because without those links, he will have everyone running off on distractions and quests for citations. He isn’t here to discuss anything. He is here to sow chaos.
The problem was that it wasn’t *really* the private employer saying it. It was the federal government saying it.
Sometimes it was the government, and sometimes it wasn’t. But I also recall plenty of people around here praising red state governors for dictating to private businesses that they COULDN’T require vaccines even if they freely wanted to.
So your government bogeyman here does not work.
It was always the government. If not directly then through threats and suggestions.
Quit lying, Jeff.
“That is the only libertarian definition of force that could possibly work, that is consistent with a broad understanding of property rights and a correct understanding of liberty.”
No this is wrong, and I explained why in the next paragraph when I said, “The government wouldn’t be able to do these things if it didn’t have monopolies on force.”
Let’s say the government nationalizes your industry, and tells your boss to enforce a vaccine mandate. The government is not holding a gun to your head- you could quit and be jobless because no one in your (nationalized) industry will hire you. You could say that the government isn’t even holding a gun to your bosses head because he too could quit, and be unemployed until he could find a different industry that would hire him.
So there is our technicality- our semantic squabble. Technically, the government isn’t forcing vaccinations. But the government IS using force to coerce you into getting a vaccination, and (I’m sorry I have to explain this to you again) that violates the non-aggression principle.
Aggression doesn’t just mean punching you in the face. It could mean threatening to punch you. It could mean destroying your property. It could mean threatening to destroy your property.
In the case of vaccinations the government used its monopoly on force to threaten other’s freedom of association. “We will not allow you to operate as a business if you do not require that person to get a jab.”
So you are playing the same game that Mike is playing, except you are playing it worse. Mike knows that the above scenarios are not libertarian. So he leaves them unsaid and will be silent when I explain the above, only commenting on whether Johny has a gun to his head. You, sadly are arguing the unsaid part, and it has walked you into defending government use of force.
I appreciate that you are willing to debate honestly about it, at least.
Woah, woah, woah. How am I involved in your and chemjeff’s conversation?
I’m literally standing here cooking Easter Sunday breakfast for my kids, trying to catch up with your guys‘ debate, considering your points. And with no particular motivation to enter your conversation.
“Woah, woah, woah. How am I involved in your and chemjeff’s conversation?”
You poor victim. I’m so sorry that your name had to be dragged into this.
Rent free. Your head.
Literally a dozen posts up. Who do you think you’re tricking, Mike.
Let’s say the government nationalizes your industry,
Stop right there. THAT’S THE IMPERMISSIBLE FORCE right there. So everything else that flows from that first part is a result of that impermissible force. So the rest of your silly argument falls apart.
And I’m sorry to break this to you, but plenty of companies decided to require vaccines of their employees without being mandated by the government to do so.
So if your position is that it is wrong for the government to coerce people to get vaccinated, but it is perfectly acceptable for a private employer to require vaccination as a condition of employment, then we are in agreement.
Is that your position?
“So everything else that flows from that first part is a result of that impermissible force.”
Yes this was my point. The government’s force has “flowed” (in your words) down to the employee. And so it is perfectly legitimate for people like myself to refer to corporations acting under the threat of force from the government as “force” on the employees.
“And I’m sorry to break this to you, but plenty of companies decided to require vaccines of their employees without being mandated by the government to do so.”
That doesn’t matter, and you know it. The fact is many companies DID require it, and therefore many employees DID get forced to vaccinate. And therefore it was wrong for Mike to insist that it is “mostly true” that “nobody was forced to vaccinate”.
“Is that your position?”
No, my position is that when a government uses its monopoly on force to coerce an employer to require vaccination, then it is perfectly fine (as a term of language) to say that the employee was forced to vaccinate.
In a completely free world where the government was not flat out requiring corporations to demand vaccination, and was not behind the scenes twisting other levers (only available due to its monopoly on force), we could argue about what private entities should be allowed to do. But that isn’t the world we live in. The world we live in is one where people were being forced to vaccinate.
Oh fucking fuck the fuck off with this fucking shit. The federal government instituting a vaccine mandate and then flippantly claiming that you can quit your job and go to another company that doesn’t have any business with the federal government is prima facie proof that no one is being “forced into anything” is such a bullshit arguing-in-the-cracks position that anyone that claims to be the TRUE libertarian while making this argument deserves all the scorn and derision that comes xer way.
Fuck you. There were plenty of companies that instituted their own vaccine mandates without any requirement from the government. What of the employees who were fired for refusing these PRIVATE mandates? Were they the victims of impermissible aggression? Was it wrong for their employers to fire them?
I suspect that you are going to invoke the Great And All Powerful Government Bogeyman to explain away private businesses making private decisions. Granted, the government is too powerful, but it does not control every single decision and it’s dishonest to try to claim it does.
There were plenty of companies that instituted their own vaccine mandates without any requirement from the government.
Name one that wasn’t advised either directly or via their industry trade group or business association, by the government.
“There were plenty of companies that instituted their own vaccine mandates without any requirement from the government. ”
So what? We aren’t talking about those. You keep digressing to something irrelevant. This entire thread started because Mike insisted that it was “Mostly true” that “Nobody was forced to vaccinate”.
So whatever was happening to the purely private sector is irrelevant. The government has nationalized around 20% of the economy (govt spending, military, medicare, etc). And it heavily regulates to the point of near nationalization another 40% (federal contractors, banking and finance, public education, and health care).
That ~60% of the economy was being forced by the government to vaccinate. Saying that some of them want it doesn’t matter. Some people don’t want to do drugs, but we have no problem saying that government laws against drugs are still government force.
My point stands: It is flatly wrong to insist that “Nobody was forced to vaccinate”. Many, many people were. They had to vaccinate to keep their jobs because of government force. They had to vaccinate to keep their kids in school, because of government mandates. And to argue about what purely private actors were doing is a dodge, plain and simple.
Goddamn, you are clueless.
you’re either stupid or a troll. every government employee, including military, was told to get the covid shot or lose their job/career. this was defacto force. when people have to choose between feeding their family and talking an experimental drug many chose the later. but make no mistake about it this was forced.
Those same employees were free to no longer work for that particular employer.
Just because a choice is difficult doesn’t mean the choice is impermissible.
Right. And if that’s the typical job they did, and every employer is mandating the jab due to federal pressure, the person is out of a livelihood. Doesn’t that seem a bit wrong to you?
Lots of things “seem a bit wrong” to me.
But look at the position that you are staking out. Are you trying to claim that there is some right to a job? That an employer has an obligation to continue to hire a qualified employee forever and ever?
So, if a boss told an employee, “from now on, you’re having sex with me every Friday after work”, you would be OK with that? There’s no “right to a job”, right? The employee can accept the terms or leave.
That would be changing the job description the parties had already agreed in their employment contract…
Most jobs are at will- there is no contract of what duties you will perform. The contract you sign will almost ALWAYS say “perform the duties assigned to you”, and that assumes that the duties may change. Even when there is specific contracts, no arrangement generally goes on in perpetuity, so at the next contract negotiation, the terms of employment could still be rewritten.
In a libertarian world, employers would be free to make demands for sex in return for the job. I mean, ENB writes articles several times a month calling for legalized prostitution. That is literally a man going to a woman and saying “I have a job for you- suck my dick and I’ll give you a paycheck.” That isn’t substantially different from, “Suck my dick and file these papers and I’ll give you a paycheck.” Which is morally no different from “I want you to start sucking my dick if you want to keep receiving a paycheck.”
So yes- in Libertopia, we understand that an employer may change the terms of employment. And potentially (due to representations made at the time of hire) you could take them to arbitration where you get a settlement like, “I get to work here another 3 months (or they have to pay me 3 months severance) because of the costs I incurred accepting this job under pretenses that are changing.” You would also be allowed to publish your experience far and wide.
But that doesn’t change two simple facts relevant to this specific conversation. 1) We aren’t talking about purely private transactions here. The government *is* using force behind the scenes to bully and threaten 3rd parties into pushing their policies. Force is being used. And 2) we don’t live in a libertarian world. Many things have been codified as “force” in law, and that includes an employer exercising their leverage as your boss to hold your job hostage to some unrelated requirement (like sex or vaccination). So when you argue semantics like “The boss really didn’t “force-force” that woman into having sex with him” it is the type of hair splitting that is only good as a distraction (especially when, as explained in #1, the government is definitely involved).
“But look at the position that you are staking out.”
Look at the position you are staking out. Based on your logic, no regulation is force unless the immediate punishment is death.
The government is using its monopoly on force to interfere with the company’s right to free association. While it is true that the company could always choose to dissolve rather than comply, that is still an application of force. To argue otherwise is to insist that no law is an application of force if you could comply. It’s absurd.
Chemjeff is going into my bookmark file. This is the most laughable “libertarian” line of reasoning I’ve ever seen.
You keep a bookmark file on people? That’s creepy.
They’re great for eliminating deniability whenever you’re caught lying, Mike.
Maybe if you didn’t always act like such a fucking con artist all the time, they wouldn’t be needed.
Jeffie is a fascist, in the true Mussolini sense.
I’ll bet chemjeff doesn’t keep a file of bookmarks to other people’s comments. That shit is straight out of the fascist playbook.
“That shit is straight out of the fascist playbook.”
You heard that right, guys! If you keep an index of important information so that you can respond to (Mike’s) incessant demands for citations, you are following the fascist playbook.
I guess the entire scientific publishing industry is a fascist nightmare. After all, they have entire online databases of the stuff other people published- and they make it available so that other people can reference and critique those posts.
Give me a break. Mike is butt-hurt that his words are being used against him, and so all he can do is make process complaints. Sure, it is regrettable that he has been repeatedly caught lying and arguing disingenuously but the real problem is that these people are keeping records. NAZIS KEPT RECORDS, PEOPLE!! WAKE UP!
smdh.
“If you keep an index of important information”
Are you always this disingenuous? Diane/Paul clearly referred to keeping a dossier on chemjeff, not simply keeping a file of citations that chemjeff might ask for.
” Diane/Paul clearly referred to keeping a dossier on chemjeff”
No. He clearly stated that he has a “bookmark file” and that chemjeff is going into it.
So it isn’t a dossier, and you are the one being disingenuous.
Reason’s comments are no longer indexed on search engines, so if we want to cite previous comments, we need a bookmarks file. I have a similar notes document where I can keep important threads, links to data that I have used in those discussions. And I also have links to your bouts of perfidy because you will do shit just like this to send conversations sideways.
If Reason had a decent forum interface, or allowed their comments to be indexed by search engines, it would not be necessary. And if you didn’t constantly try to derail threads with exactly this type of nonsense, it would not be necessary.
wow.
lol I’m not the fascist around here. look in the mirror, you are the one who continually argues against egalitarianism
You’re a fucking Nazi in the literal sense.
In the last year alone you’ve argued for censorship, Aktion T4, bookburning, corporatism, Kirchenkampf and racist instruction in schools.
All that’s missing is the little toothbrush moustache.
“All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.
Straight from Benitos mouth.
And we’ve been over this, there is no requirement that freedom be inclusive.
None. In fact, that’s the main reason why you oppose divorce, because people’s right to associate would lead to non-inclusive outcomes.
Based on your logic, no regulation is force unless the immediate punishment is death.
Not what I wrote, don’t be dishonest.
I wrote:
“It is impermissible force if all choice is taken away from the victim”
Glad I could clear that up for you.
How do you take ALL choice away from a victim without threat of unlimited reprisal? If you leave them any path for disengagement, then they still have SOME choice, however awful.
The government is using its monopoly on force to interfere with the company’s right to free association.
In some cases it is. In other cases it isn’t. But you and Diane and the rest of the paranoid fringe around here likes to claim that it’s ALWAYS the government’s fault.
“In some cases it is”
Then stop arguing with me. Because we are talking about those cases. In those cases, people were forced to vaccinate. Full stop.
so you’re against all labor laws, right? because that is the position you just took. you said that an employer can demand anything and it’s ok because “you can just get a job somewhere else”. no employer has the right to force an employee to take a drug as terms of employment — never, for any reason. especially an experimental, unknown, untested drug. what a dumbass.
Those same employees were free to no longer work for that particular employer.
You’re a real disingenuous cunt.
I’ve got your friend/loved one with a knife to his/her neck. You can give me what I want and I’ll spare his/her life.
Just because a choice is difficult doesn’t mean the choice is impermissible.
And Diane/Paul drops out of the adult debate by resorting to name calling.
Better write up chemjeff in your enemies file.
And Liarson drops into a conversation that doesn’t involve him to throw insults.
Threatening death falls into the impermissible category.
And who knew you’d go full left-wing on the matter. Suddenly any workplace condition in which the employee feels uncomfortable becomes “use of force!” and must be regulated by the state.
“My boss made me show up to work at 8am. That’s so totally not fair! There oughta be a law!”
Threatening death falls into the impermissible category.
Why? No one has been killed yet. And if you simply obey, no one will be. You have a choice.
I’m afraid that it’s even worse than what you pointed out. Although we could trade socialist mandates for christian mandates by moving from a red zone into a blue zone (and vice versa) there are some hints that the red zone and the blue zone would try to stop you from escaping mandates that way (e.g. abortion for the reds and taxes for the blues) and most people would not like moving back and forth between the zones depending on what they want to do that day anyway (snowbirds notwithstanding). And the mandates keep changing unpredictably, at least at the national level, as the team in power keeps swinging back and forth like the pit and the pendulum.
And that assumes there would only be two “zones”. Why would they have to choose one or the other?
It would be fun to watch (from where I live), but probably not so much fun to be part of.
Mises had a semi-related article just yesterday (https://mises.org/wire/if-first-you-dont-secede), reviewing a book on Abraham Lincoln and the Confederate secession. I have several thoughts on that secession, somewhat relevant.
* Complaining that Confederate secession was illegal is especially hypocritical considering how the Constitution illegally replaced the Articles of Confederation, which expressly forbade secession.
* Symmetry requires that if joining the Union was voluntary, so must be leaving; like marriage and divorce.
* Secession requires as much negotiation and coordination as divorce. There are debts and assets, borders, contracts, the army and navy, lighthouses, post offices, and who knows what else.
* If you participate in an election, you expect the other side to abide by the results if you win. So must you abide by the results if you lose.
* The Confederate states claimed they seceded because of Lincoln’s policies. But he hadn’t even been inaugurated yet, let alone instituted any policies, and their representatives kept voting in Congress.
* The secessions were nothing but sour grapes of the sourest sort.
* Lincoln’s military response was predictable, and the Confederate pretense of being surprised was just more hypocrisy.
At any rate, the book claims Lincoln made some claims about why he thought secession illegal and/or immoral.
If this is what Lincoln thought, it’s a pretty lame justification of might makes right, and goes against the Revolutionary War and the Declaration of Independence. Secession is not some simple affair undertaken lightly, like voting where to go for lunch and eating by yourself rather than accept the majority decision. As hypocritical as their reasons were, as oligarchical and rushed as their decisions were, they had public debates and votes. And then Lincoln showed his own hypocrisy by going to war with less forethought and public discussion than the secessions, and no vote.
As others have commented, this “national divorce” concept is silly. Everything stems from having too much government. As I and many others have said, the more government intrudes into our personal lives, the more profitable it becomes for us to sic government on others before they sic government on us.
“As I and many others have said, the more government intrudes into our personal lives, the more profitable it becomes for us to sic government on others before they sic government on us.”
I am skeptical of National Divorce, but I increasingly see it as the only mechanism by which you decrease the size of the government. This is essentially what it took in the Roman Empire, and I think it will take the same for us- eventually.
Unless national divorce is followed by regional divorce, so that rural areas can separate from urban wokism, the only real progress could come from competing governments, and that requires not just Red and Blue, but preferably a dozen separate national governments.
I don’t have any realistic practical hopes. I do have some unrealistic ideas for how government can evolve as they get too big to survive.
Virtual governments: have a skeletal national government, and I mean skeletal: no taxes, no laws, no real power. Let people form contractual associations, virtual not territorial, for taxes, laws, foreign policy, morality, etc. Switching associations has to be easy, such as expiring within a year if not renewed.
Technology: I have some hope that just as the Catholic Church has faded from absolute control over everybody from peasants to kings, so might dark webs and mesh networks provide an escape route for people as more and more of daily life is handled by networks. Video and audio entertainment, work from home, family connections — that’s a start. If, say, 90% of people’s lives take place online, physical location won’t matter as much, and government revenue will drop. Would meatspace government eventually be reduced so much that no one really cares any more what it says about drinking on Sunday or medical approvals? Not now, not with any currently foreseeable technology, but 100 years is a long ways away. 1869 was four years after the Civil War, Reconstruction was still strong, and no one predicted airplanes, electric appliances, or radio, and Jules Verne had written about men on the moon just four years before.
Unless national divorce is followed by regional divorce, so that rural areas can separate from urban wokism…
Separating the warring factions in this country would require regional divorce INSTEAD OF whole states seceding.
There are 3, and only 3, possibilities for the future.
1. Status quo into leftist/globalist totalitarianism
2. Violent revolution
3. Divorce
None of these options are peaceful. No peaceful options exist. No options to avoid a civil war exist, because a civil war is already being waged.
You either let the left inflict atrocities upon you, fight for power, or fight to separate.
There is no live-and-let-live scenario. The left/establishment makes it impossible. There is only kill-or-be-killed.
This is the reality we live in, whether you like it or not.
Cite for “leftist totalitarian” status quo?
https://twitter.com/OliLondonTV/status/1644890070543941632?t=wFnymAngFt1lYohNH_cK3A&s=19
Breaking????????: San Francisco State University has just released a statement to students after @Riley_Gaines_ was assaulted and held hostage by them.
The University VP commended the trans activists for their “tremendous bravery’’ and described them as behaving “peacefully”.
They then offer support to the violent mob who assaulted Riley with Campus Resources to help them “process” and “begin to heal”.
#WokeCulture #rileygaines #transgender #trans
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Which is exactly what TPUSA wanted to happen.
(You know that, right?)
Actually getting people to agree with you would be “too hard”.
Perhaps it is, but it is of course, still an option. But you obviously believe the ideas of liberty and justice are not powerful enough to sway the people anymore. Sad.
But you obviously believe the ideas of liberty and justice are not powerful enough to sway the people anymore. Sad.
You did just observe the behavior of the general populace over the last three years, right?
As James Lindsay said: If there’s one thing this pandemic has taught me, it’s who would have hidden Anne Frank and who would have turned her in.
“As others have commented, this “national divorce” concept is silly. Everything stems from having too much government. As I and many others have said, the more government intrudes into our personal lives, the more profitable it becomes for us to sic government on others before they sic government on us.”
Ok.
Who the fuck cares?
Apparently it pissed you off enough to care.
You think your masturbatory observation pisses me off?
Lol
I was just wondering how you think your statement matters in the slightest.
“these include constitutional checks and limitations” Yes and no. Until recently, most people would not or could not divorce just because they were tired of each other – one or both parties had to violate the marriage contract. Lincoln was right that secession could not be excused because the South lost an election; I suggest that the Federal government has violated the Constitutional limits on Federal authority many times over the decades since the end of the Civil War and if a “divorce” in this context were possible, repeated and egregious violation of the Constitution over many decades would certainly justify it. Unfortunately, neither divorce nor secession would solve this problem for the ten to twenty percent of us who object to being violated, as both the Red Team and the Blue Team are guilty.
Naturally the tribe that is on top now wouldn’t want to see their slaves escape.
I can imagine a highly entertaining discussion on how Federal government liabilities such as issued debt and social security would be apportioned. I suspect that blue states and Democrats, on average, would want apportionment by population (however defined) while red states, and Republicans, on average would want apportionment by gross state product.
It is disappointing that both sides of this debate assume a collectivist position, in which there is a (geographically definable) ‘we’ who will go one way or the other. Rather than arguing about whether the ‘we’ in one jurisdiction should go ‘our’ separate ways, how about remembering that any geography is home to individuals, each of whom has a unique set of values. Some values may align with a given ‘we,’ other values may align with a different ‘we.’ The grouping of individuals into distinct ‘we’ categories is at best intellectually unjustified and at worst blatantly authoritarian. The ‘we’ that forms a separate geographic polity will necessarily contain contrarian individuals.
I would have preferred the debate to focus on the consequences of political separation. Both short-term and long-term consequences need to be covered, arguably with emphasis on short-term, the consequences that directly affect individuals caught up in the change.
For example, the American revolution led to immense long-term benefits, and the victors who write history have helped us forget that individuals who were not on board with the revolution suffered substantial costs. The cost-benefit tradeoff looks different 200 years later than it would have to a contemporary, whether pro or con.
Other political separations can hardly be said to have resulted in either short- or long-term beneficial outcomes. A few examples:
– Partition of India into three countries, at immense cost to millions of individual, and with arguably little obvious benefit even many decades later.
– The dissolution of the USSR and its satellite empire, whose short-term consequences were manifest in optimism everywhere. In the longer term, this has clearly had beneficial outcomes for some of the polities. As to some of the other polities, the jury is still out.
– Brexit, which could have yielded unilateral free-trade prosperity, but has evolved into something regarded as a mistake across a wide range of opinions.
Overall, I’m disappointed by the debates in this issue of Reason. In the introductory essay, Katherine says both sides were offered the opportunity to make their best possible case. The resulting essays mostly ignore the individual, and some of them shift the question away from the central topic. If these are the best arguments the libertarians can make, we have further to go than any of us might hope.
It’s unreasonable to complain that Brexit has been a failure before it’s even actually occurred. Once Brexit actually happens and GB is completely split from the EU (including in Northern Ireland) then we can debate about how effective it was or not.
Oh, it’s going to get better than this? A loss of 4-5% of GDP was just the beginning?
Although I agree with your assessment of political divorces, it’s unfair to criticize this “debate” as too simplistic. That’s the nature of debates – the organizer has to come up with as simple a proposition as possible so that “pro” and “con” can be easily identified and discussed. Your desire for a more complete discussion in this case would result in a large tome of dense verbiage (possibly several volumes) without addressing the “I want a divorce!” narrative. Both sides addressed the “why a divorce is possible/not possible” to my satisfaction except for a few points that I think both of them missed (posted above).
https://twitter.com/OversightPR/status/1642983655470407682?t=oO7Ie3XU-ikoe4lsz_r4_w&s=19
NEW: Docs we obtained show how @FBI equates protected online speech to violence.
According to @FBI using the terms “based” or “red pilled” are signs of “Racially or Ethnically Motivated Violent Extremism”
Using terms like “looksmaxxing”, “Chad”, and “Stacy” will get you on an @FBI list for “Involuntary Celibate Violent Extremism.”
Makes you wonder if there are any FBI materials on BLM or violent transgender extremists. Likely not.
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And those damn Catholics who like Latin mass….don’t forgot about them. And the folks pushing this crap.
I don’t see the problem with this. You obviously are fine with deadnaming the transperson who was killed while wandering around the Nashville Christian school, but not everybody is a bigot.
This is an amusing schtick, at least for one day.
I find it tiresome.
But the butthurt it inspires in the original is amazing.
And don’t even mention “Hanging Chads”.
When objective reality is rejected by the Federal govt and most institutions like academia and the media, it is time to think about moving on. No men cannot be women. No “whiteness” is not to blame for disparities in occupations, test scores, and even criminal acts. Math is not racist. America became wealthy via the industrial revolution which was powered by primarily European Immigrants not former African Slaves. Central banks and keynsian economics don’t work other than enriching the well connected public sector elites. Going abroad to find monsters to destroy is not Ameican. Countries are defined by borders. I could go on but we are at the point where the public sector has destroyed the idea of liberty. Look at Chicago. A bolshie mayor is elected based on govt sector union greed and race baiting. How do you fight that? Sel- defense is not allowed in Blue Cities if you are the “wrong” ethnicity. The Federal Govt believes Catholics are domestic terrorists. Where does it stop?
We could separate at the county level. As long as counties can touch contiguously, they can join either a Red or Blue America. Red America would renounce the current Federal Debt, as Fort Knox is in Kentucky (a Red state), Red America can issue its own currency backed by gold and so on…Nukes can go to where they are stationed as would all military assets.
The only other alternative is for the States to intervene and clean up the Federal Govt, radically downsizing in line with the Constitution. Or perhaps just go back to the Articles of Confederation with a sane commerce clause and bill of rights.
Many countries split up w/o violence for those doomsayers.
go away, bigot
He might be a bigot, but you also failed to refute his points in any way.
Just got here and haven’t read Zach yet but Kudos to McCardle. This is the full throated libertarianism that we never see at Reason.
Ideally we would reach the point where government is not geographically defined. People living in the same geographic region use different banks, different insurance companies, different cell phone service, etc. Why not different security and dispute resolution and social insurance services? Let all the Repubs set up their own government, setting taxes and benefits and crimes and penalties for themselves. Let the Dems and the Libertarians and the Greens do the same thing.
The only areas where this might not work is when someone from Govt A commits a crime against someone from Govt B. In that case, the victim’s Govt would judge the case. If there’s no victim, there’s no crime. In non-criminal disputes (torts), a neutral third Govt C could try the case.
THIS THIS 100x THIS
There is no logical reason in this day and age where citizenship and government have to be defined by geography.
THIS is the type of out-of-the-box thinking that we need to be considering here.
Won’t happen and shouldn’t happen. You think things are bad now, wait until you have twelve different sets of laws you have to keep track of, lest you insult someone only to find out that their laws consider that hate speech punishable by 10 years in prison. And to make things worse, none of the politicians or prosecutors are one bit accountable to you, since they’re from a different system you don’t get to vote for.
It gets worse when you consider the Greens. Their main thing is anti-pollution, right? Well, it doesn’t do much good for *them* to have strict anti-pollution laws while the people next door vote for the party which lets them dump raw sewage into the water. And hey, how do we decide how many lanes the freeway should be? We can’t have 2 sets of mutually exclusive roads, let alone 4 or more. We can’t really have two sets of traffic laws, either; if the Greens have a limit of 55 on the freeway and the Libertarians have no speed limit, you’ll just get the worst of both worlds and a bunch of dead people. Four sets of police who have to figure out which party people are from before they even know whether what they just witnessed is a crime or not.
For many aspects of life, but there are areas where government is inextricably tied to geography.
For example, as I brought up elsewhere on this page, watershed management, and water rights. And water law is inherently messy, imperfect, and pre-loaded with conflict and politics.
Separate but equal-ish!
Civil War II coming soon to your neighborhood. Newsflash! Democrats lose *AGAIN*!
California is my home. I don’t want to move and I should not have to surrender it to the foul, misdirected, inept and morally bankrupt leaders like Newsom. The Democratic Party is destroying our nation from the inside (as Lincoln predicted) and needs to be crippled to the point it cannot be rebuilt. If the nation must take up arms (again) to do it, so be it.
The Republican Party is doing the same thing. Both legacy parties need to be destroyed.
dude, it’s already been surrendered, long ago. you just need to recognize it. i left ca 35 years ago because i saw the shit-hole-ness writing on the wall. i still have family there who are all very conservative, but i cannot fathom why they stay. in fact i can’t fathom why anyone but a fully retarded leftist would live there, hell i won’t even go visit.
No numerous expressions of distaste for Angela McCardle like there were for Taylor Lorenz?
I guess the misogynists must have taken a day off.
Yes, that’s probably it.
No comparison. One is ethical and intelligent. The other is immoral, and well Hobert and William Smith sending their best…(bring your freesbee and bong because you won’t be doing my studying there corn pop).
Did McCardle dox people while trying to remain anonymous herself? Did she treat people like a total asshole? Was she a major fucking hypocrite? If not, then why would there be an expression of distaste?
Lorenz has earned the vitriol. McCardle has not.
I don’t know much about Lorenz, but McCardle has turned the Libertarian Party’s social media feeds into pure right-wing edgelord-ism, signed up the LP to participate in a pro-Kremlin propaganda rally, and managed to drive away LP members and donors at an unprecedented rate.
So, yeah, she’s pretty bad.
We found our misogynist.
I don’t know much about Lorenz
Well, you surely learned a lot about her by reading the comments in that thread, as there were multiple links and cites posted referencing her odious, narcissistic behavior.
There were not. Go back and look. There was just comment after comment saying how awful she is, with no specifics.
So, I went out and looked into it, and found accusations against her and also arguments that those accusations were questionable.
“We found our misogynist.”
How so? What have I said against women?
Where does one stop “divorcing”? If Texas secedes from the Union, do Austin, Houston, San Antonio and Dallas secede from Texas? Do the West Hills secede from Austin? “Divorce” is absolutely impossible; Libertarians proved it with the failed FSP, because nutballs like “Ian Freeman” then seceded from the FSP to form even nuttier splinter groups which are opposed to the FSP (which is opposed to the government of NH).
The solution is to let counties chose if they are continguous. Say a county in western PA can join Ohio if the counties touching it and those touching those get you to Ohio. Western NY would go to Ohio as well as Western PA (or to WVA). Most of Michigan could join Indiana and so on. Western WA and Oregon would join Idaho. If your county can’t move to a different country then you are stuck. But give five years for people to move around then lock the new borders down. As for Austin and Blue Cities…well you can move to Chicago or NYC or DC or LA. If you are stuck in bolshie blue counties..you move to free red counties. Works fine….
Or you do a kind of Snow Crash thing across the US, with individual cities or districts deciding and so you get a mosaic or fractal US. It’s probably not that efficient, but who cares? And modern GPS makes virtual boundaries easy.
“Lock the new borders down”??? Are you insane? We saw how well that worked for East Germany.
Bof Sidez!
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Very often so.
A rare Trump comment these “libertarians” apparently don’t agree with.
https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1644801508645404673?t=vuvEoazyngGhGNuasl3FWg&s=19
“All kids are queer.” They are trying to recruit ALL children into Queer Theory. They say it themselves. It’s a cult. It was never about “LGBT rights” for the Qs.
[Pic]
https://twitter.com/remnantposting/status/1644438209030684672?t=1JyyVyPViVKXIWZqr5p9UA&s=19
It should be absolutely crystal clear after the Trump indictment: leftists and liberals will rationalize literally anything. There is always some excuse for why everything is okay when they do it.
If you’re not on board with agenda, they don’t see you as human. It’s that simple.
Why do you think they want to ban everything that allows you even the slightest bit of independence from their domesticated social systems? Because they want you totally dependent on centralized techno-bureaucratic structures, even more than we already are.
If you wanted to micromanage every aspect of people’s lives, why would you want to allow them to homeschool their children, keep firearms and other weapons, raise and slaughter their own animals, etc?
You wouldn’t. Which is why they hate all of these things.
They can’t brainwash your kids if you’re allowed to teach them your own values at home.
They can’t terrorize you if you have lethal means of self-defense.
They can’t feed you garbage if you can produce or procure your own food locally.
[Link]
https://twitter.com/MysteryGrove/status/1644794822610362368?t=LmKdKgYxgu013yeZbET5FQ&s=19
The best part of this statement is that he explicitly blames the jury. It’s good for people to say out loud that the issue isn’t *just* scheming liberal elites or the criminal underclass, but also complicit “normal” liberals who enable this kind of outlandish overreach.
No, you’re not just following the law even though you’re nominally participating in the normal process. You’re part of a kangaroo court. You’re helping them try to jail an innocent man.
[Link]
You have the right to be tried by people who have the same political beliefs….a jury of your peers.
https://twitter.com/FischerKing64/status/1644796872530464768?t=fqYLz1T0wKgOIca-Lf0Fow&s=19
As matter of principle, federal district judges issuing nationwide injunctions based on 1 person’s interpretation of a law is a breathtaking power grab. Shouldn’t happen. Any ruling shouldn’t extend beyond district itself. This was main weapon in judicial arsenal to derail Trump.
Their existence also encourages forum shopping, also a tool in the war against Trump. Everyone knows where to look to find pliant judges – Hawaii, Washington State, Oregon, etc. If judges had their wings clipped on the reach of their rulings, this wouldn’t be possible.
Also – if you’re ever had the misfortune of attending any sort of bar association or judicial conference where such judges are invited to speak, it’s nauseating beyond belief. They are constantly lauded for their “bravery” for issuing these injunctions by ACLU types and the like.
It would be nice to take away from them this opportunity of displaying fake “courage” when all they are doing is what their friends want them to do, and which never has any consequences for them personally. They just get celebrated by like minded people while harming institutions
Good thread on how the Bolsheviks took power
https://twitter.com/ModernHeretic9/status/1640771440126439425?t=yCvmg4aGz-Z2jKLpTsHreA&s=19
The Oldest Trick in the Book.
Every tyrant needs a pretext to seize power. Usually they exaggerate or entirely invent a threat if necessary in order to justify their own seizure of power. They fake victimization in order to justify their victimization of others.
[Thread, links]
This is what I was talking about when I said we have to be extremely careful right now about being goaded into a physical response.
They’re trying to bait us into doing something so they can crackdown like they did within hours of the J6 protest.
Because they own the microphone they can be as violent and vicious as they want with the full knowledge that only their targets will hear of their outrages.
Before we react we have to wait until they get frustrated and fuck up. Then we can react. But it takes a wise man to recognize that fuckup when it happens.
And if there is no physical response?
They just keep marching forward and continue consolidating power.
Knowing when is the difference between winning and losing.
True.
https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1644798539938103297?t=MNRifwb2NRZ9_LHQVqbP9w&s=19
Biden hasn’t bothered to reach out to the families who lost their loved ones at the hands of the transgender killer. Instead he’s reaching out to three insurrectionists inciting more trans violence.
[Link]
Why would Biden bother to talk to a bunch of bigoted Christifascist trash?
(Sarc, because I know it’s not clear on the internet these days.)
That’s Shrike on a good day.
A good day would involve Shrike’s cremation.
White students get points taken off math tests for being white? Seriously is this really occuring in Cali and Chicago? JC..this has to stop.
Anti-math = anti-racism
How does a divorce work when one of the spouses refuse to accept the authority of the court?
It seems to me the Commonwealth of Virginia flag pictures the only choice left.
Libertarians, come get your soys
https://twitter.com/LPTexas/status/1644795063254368256?t=8ySA6aQkjGdkB9dcHICTMA&s=19
Garrett Foster’s passing is a tragic loss. He’ll always be remembered for his dedication to volunteering, activism, kindness, and advocacy for others. His contributions made a positive impact on @LPTravisTX , and his absence is deeply felt. Don’t make this worse @GregAbbott_TX
[Pic of memo from Abbot announcing intent to pardon Perry and uphold right of self defense]
You point an AK47 in a car window after your bolshie thugs attack an uber driver don’t be surprised if you get blown away. Now Reason writers will of course blast Abott if he gives a pardon. Bake the cake, support Ukraine, love the Fed and sexually mutilate children right Nick? If your white don’t go into a blue city and expect you will be allowed to defend yourself.
The democrat party should be dissolved and ‘blue cities’ placed under martial law.
The national LP needs an intervention to kick out these Bolshevik little Gen Z idiots.
Sorry climate change is bs, systematic racism doesn’t exist in America, Inflation is caused by central banks/govts printing money, trans kids don’t exist, JC…why do these fing losers decide to hang out in the LP.
At worst, it is not as bad as Clinton pardoning Marc Rich.
I presume criminal convictions are correct as a matter of law and ethics.
I also point out that a pardon does not negate a wriongful death lawsuit.
ah yes Marc Rich..where did that advocacy come from?
Perry did nothing wrong.
I am npt sold yet on the claim that tbe conviction was unjust.
You should be
Yeah, I saw that. The LP of TX is useless.
All we have to do is enforce the NAP.
OK. How?
We currently have the government allowing criminals and, occasionally, domestic terrorists (Antifa, BLM, etc.) to aggress against us, while punishing us when we defend ourselves.
(Not to mention taxing us to death while handing $ to those it finds more deserving.)
How do we check this aggression? How do we “enforce the NAP”?
28th amendment, “Government shall not initiate force.”
And if government violates that amendment?
What then?
You hope that the military cares.
Fortunately, service members are not left leaning.
Sue.
The entire “national divorce” concept is only about one thing. Not being able to impose their political will over the whole country. It is therefore a reflection of those people’s inability to accept that there are people that want government to do different things than they want it to do. Instead of working harder to persuade people to their way of thinking via rational argument, fear, anger and hatred win out and control their behavior.
Seriously? The Federal Govt has declared war on the bill of rights. the push for DIE cultural marxism to trump liberty by DC, most institutions, the media is worrisome enough. Add on neocon/neolib foreign policy, debt, and sexual mutilation of kids for some mental illness called “transgenderism.” No the left controls the power now and they are sick as f.
But you obviously think most people agree with this, that you would lose that vote.
Do you think the majority of folks in East Germany really supported the Stasi and bolshie ideology and economics? No they didn’t but they knew they had to obey publicly or leave. One can’t push back on the DIE ideology or be called a racist and doxed and lose your job. You cannot push back on the neocons/neolibs obsession with regime change in the middle east and russia (wow interesting they are so focused on those areas but I digress).
Unless you are a govt elite or a member of the MIC, Educational Complex, Healthcare Complex and Media Complex you can’t push back. A DeFacto social credit system (for the “common good”) is now in effect in America.
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Seems to me the problem has been mostly with state and local governments violating their citizens rights. Until recently, hardly anyone paid much attention to city or county council or state elections, but the national parties have taken them over as testing grounds for their worst ideas. How do you avoid this? One way would be To randomly select citizens for local or state governing bodies, like jurors have been, and there would be no political parties for these offices. This would immediately take the wind out of the sails for those who want bigger government, local or federal, since there would be very little chance you would have many professional politicians selected.
1. There’s not going to be a national divorce, as long as China is the close-second global economic power. Because the moment the US splits up, guess who automatically becomes #1? Hope you like the yuan as your global reserve currency.
2. If you look at all of the other “national divorces” that have taken place, they have all resolved around a very deep, fundamental difference between the various people. Generally concerning religion, but in our case it was slavery. That very deep issue simply does not exist in the US today. There are American Christians who are pro-life and American Christians who are pro-choice.
3. A “national divorce” will mean that North America will wind up looking a lot like Africa, with petty warlords and dictators ruling over particular fiefdoms. That doesn’t sound very libertarian to me.
Government is all about abortion?
I would think treasonous [Na]tional So[zi]alists conquering the very foundation of the USA on every corner would be a much bigger issue.
Details, details…
What we need is to delegitimize details. That will solve these problems.
“1. There’s not going to be a national divorce, as long as China is the close-second global economic power. Because the moment the US splits up, guess who automatically becomes #1? Hope you like the yuan as your global reserve currency.”
That process has already started. If we had a competent administration, that might be dealt with. But we do not and it will not.
“3. A “national divorce” will mean that North America will wind up looking a lot like Africa, with petty warlords and dictators ruling over particular fiefdoms. That doesn’t sound very libertarian to me.”
We have that now. Exceptionally targeted prosecutions v extreme leniency (see Soros prosecutors) are dictators ruling over fiefdoms.
Way to trivialize what it is like to live under warlords and dictators.
Way to trivialize what it is like to live under warlords and dictators.
Sounds like a pretty good description of blue-city politics and gangs.
1. There’s not going to be a national divorce, as long as China is the close-second global economic power. Because the moment the US splits up, guess who automatically becomes #1? Hope you like the yuan as your global reserve currency.
You must not be keeping up with current events, because that’s full-speed-ahead with the current administration’s foreign policy decisions. We don’t need a national divorce to bring this to fruition. We just need *checks reason writers* an “enfeebled president” to do that.
Or perhaps you missed Marco Rubio’s comments (which Reason hasn’t made a peep about to the best of my knowledge).
You must not be keeping up with current events, because that’s full-speed-ahead with the current administration’s foreign policy decisions.
Let me guess, Biden is giving away the economy to China? Is that what your Youtube feed tells you?
And no I don’t give a fuck what Rubio has to say about pretty much anything.
3. A “national divorce” will mean that North America will wind up looking a lot like Africa, with petty warlords and dictators ruling over particular fiefdoms. That doesn’t sound very libertarian to me.
Or perhaps more like pre-EU Europe?
Borders are oppressive!
And changing currency uses math, and you know what that is.
Or perhaps more like pre-EU Europe?
How pre-EU do you want to go?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
The dollar is losing its reserve status…the rest of the world is moving on from the American Empire and its degeneracy.
Until we get rid of the cultural marxism which has hijacked our republic the conflict is only going to get worse. As the bolshies are no ingrained in powerful institutions the only peaceful path is a national divorce or perhaps the States intervening and making the Feds return to their constitutional powers. Or maybe going back to the Articles of Confederation with a Bill of Rights.
This is why it will be necessary to obliterate you leftists. There is no other option. It’s just a matter of when Americans wake up and accept that the democrats are their existential enemy.
https://twitter.com/JackPen22/status/1644861208606982147?t=T4-J8n2_ExgTRRvrI4XCAw&s=19
Two frames of comic destroyed the party forever. This is all I think about when someone says they’re a libertarian @stone_toss
[Political cartoon]
I’d be in favor of a national divorce, if one of the new countries were libertarian, but that’s not going to happen. Instead we’d end up with a socialist People’s Republic and a Christian nationalist theocracy.
Roe v Wade *is* supported by Republican voters with a slim majority in fact it was written by a Republican Supreme Court.
A cultural marxist state is where we are heading. The left has created the “christian nationalist state” as a boggy man.
^This
I think a lot of people overestimate how much support there actually is for radical policies. Really, radicals are much more politically active, and spend much more time online.
I think a more moderate politician would be quite likely to win the election if he/she was backed by a major political party. The problem is, moderates don’t vote in primaries, so they are stuck with the candidates the far left (and far right) vote for.
The sad thing is the ‘moderate’ of today’s politics is a soft-core Nazi.
If one considers Trump, Rand Paul, Thomas Massee as being far-right they barely meet the definition of a ‘moderate’ within the very definition of the USA (US Constitution). The USA has been conquered by Nazi’s. It’s a matter of restoring the USA not ‘moderating’ the Nazism.
What? Rand Paul and Tom Massie far right? that is an insane comment.
That’s the point
If one considers Trump, Rand Paul, Thomas Massee as being far-right
The only reason you WOULDN’T consider them ‘far right’ is that you’ve allowed the left to define ‘far right’, and every other kind of ‘right’ to their benefit.
As we’ve seen from the modern culture, the general public doesn’t HAVE to be on board with radical policies, to find that you’re suddenly living under radical policies. You ought to spend some time in a West Coast Blue city and understand just how quickly you’re drowning in Radical policies, despite there being no “broad public support” for such policies.
I mean, a pop-culture example of a “radical policy” that’s has little to no constituent support, is Bud Light’s new spokesperson.
Think about the average Bud Light customer… yeah, I think you know what I mean.
I think a lot of people with a conservative or classic liberal bent UNDERestimate how much support there actually is for radical policies. Authoritarian collectivism is the dominant political view in the USA and the West in general now.
Of course. Most Americans don’t even belong to the Democratic or Republican Party.
Look at the trending list on Twitter: it’s dominated by sports, not politics.
I think a lot of people overestimate how much support there actually is for radical policies. Really, radicals are much more politically active, and spend much more time online.
I’ve heard this “oh, this is just a loud minority” statement a lot over the last generation. First, it was about radical left college students, egged on by radical left professors, who were jawboning administrators into implementing radical left policies at universities. “Oh, don’t worry,” people said, “these are just the loudest voices in a small pond, most college students don’t care about this stuff!” Now it’s the current cope–“Oh, these are just radical fringes driving this drama, they don’t represent the vast middle!”
All it did was allow the people stating it to shirk any effort to actually rein these people in at the start. It’s a passive- conflict-averse approach that NEVER works out for the people practicing it.
The loudest voices are the ones who drive these changes, and the middle goes along with whomever they think is stronger, irrespective of the politics. That’s why most establishment institutions are supportive of child genital mutilation, anti-white policies that promote non-white ethno-nationalism, and lenient criminal prosecution now.
Marxist Nazis?
The reality is that they differ mostly in who nominally holds title to the means of production.
And who there enemies are, and the importance of nationalism, and the importance of values – and ultimately, who is “us” and who is “them”.
True, the major differences between German Nazis and German Marxists was wetter power would be concentrated in Berlin, or Moscow. And the use of corporations as proxy for state control. Beyond that, there was little difference between them.
The Nazis did have better looking uniforms.
AKA “National Socialists”
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The main difference between a Fascist and a Communist is which books are on the coffee table.
It would be much better to try a Constitutional Convention or Convention of States (or whatever it’s called) first. I don’t see why there is so much resistance to this.
We can’t even pass amendments through Congress anymore. The last one was passed through Congress in 1789 and was only pushed through the states because a college sophomore got a C on an essay. Before that is 1971 and reducing voting age to 18.
50 years without even an amendment.
Who needs amendments when you have a Supreme Court making up new ‘Amendments’ every term?
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My fear is. If they won’t obey it now then what good will changing it do?
Frankly; It’s well written now. It’s just a matter of being followed without all the blatant manipulation, deceit and flat out re-writing it.
For Angela McArdle to lump Libertarians in with conservatives is deeply offensive to those of us who believe the right-wing is just as bad as the left-wing at interfering in our lives and our livelihoods.
It’s very consistent with her m.o., though.
I don’t think any non-biased person could legitimately play “just as bad” after the last two [D] terms and Covid.
Yeah, the only GOP governor who was all-in for COVID fascism was Dewine in Ohio.
The neocons were fully on-board with Branch Covidianism, so it’s not a surprise that he was their favorite governor during that time. Some of those dingdongs were talking about him possibly running as a centrist Presidential candidate because of it, even though the party itself has left 90s-era conservatism way in the rear-view mirror.
Yes it’s time for a divorce but first let’s submit it to ‘arbitration’ and appoint ‘Abraham Lincoln’ as the arbitrator.
Just take a vote by county. Wall off the blue ones, we keep the Constitution, they take the debt they created.
I’m fine walling off red ones – just to get away from the blue. Just a wall.
When one party doesn’t believe in the rule of law, when one party cheats at elections, when one party decided that you had to stay inside, when one party has the media in their pocket, when one party turns the government into a weapon – you really think it can be worked out? You really think in a country that the media covers/excuses/or ignores one sides abuses is fine?
This is like having a mistress and beating your other. It doesn’t last. The other leaves.
Just like the 2020 fires right? The new busy words. They just sprung up.
Just take a vote by county.
Why bother with separation by geographic area. We have computers. Allow anyone and everyone to “subscribe” to the government they want. Should they choose to interact with an entity with a different choice either there can be a scheme in place to adjudicate differences (to which they implicitly agree) or for those entities that have very different choices they can mutually select buffet style from a set of predetermined possibilities. Freedom!
I must agree with Angela. We have reached the point of utterly irreconcilable differences, which is worsening by the day. There is no way that libertarians or others who support the Constitution can live under the same government and with leftists that are actively trying to destroy it.
Creating 2 separate nations does not necessarily prohibit moving from one to another, and, in fact, there would be millions of citizens who would do so. The EU is composed of multiple separate states, but citizens can rather easily move from one to another.
Like a marital divorce, legal separation would likely decrease tension. Leftists and globalists can create their own authoritarian government, keep printing their fiat currency and keep increasing their debt and deficit spending until they go bankrupt. They can continue to enjoy repeated bouts of inflation and recession/depression by allowing the Federal Reserve to to control their currency and interest rates for the benefit of the wealthy banksters. They can keep their “Patriot” Act and militaristic NDAA. They can continue to indoctrinate their children with Marxist ideology, including CRT and the lie of “White Supremacy. They can keep minorities on their government plantation by promoting total reliance on government rather than self-reliance. They can treat citizens differently based upon their skin color, gender preference, religious beliefs, ESG scores, etc. They can force their citizens to take experimental injections, wear masks which do not work and be subjugated by lockdowns. They can endure incessant government surveillance and be told what they can and cannot buy with their central bank digital currencies. They can continue to start incessant wars to benefit the wealthy neocons and their comrades in the military-industrial-intel complex. And all of the other crap that leftists seem to love.
Those who cherish freedom, the rule of law and our Constitution can form a new constitutional democratic republic based upon the ideas of our Founders with limited federal power. Create a gold/silver-backed currency issued by the new government and not a privately owned central bank which parasitizes taxpayers. We can treat citizens based upon the content of their character and apply the law equally to all. We can have term limits for politicians and eliminate all campaign contributions so that the wealthy corporations and individuals no longer control our government, allowing us to return to free-market capitalism rather than the current oligarchical state pseudo-capitalism. We can ensure fair and free elections. We can reduce our military spending and stop initiating war after war. We can stop interfering in other nations’ governments and orchestrating coups. We can promote better trade relations with all nations who want to participate in fair trading practices, including China and Russia. We can promote self-reliance, strong work ethic and proper non-ideological education. And so much more that libertarians and moderate conservatives love.
The alternative is progressive authoritarian subjugation by leftists, fascists and globalists. Anyone paying attention knows there is no way to reach a satisfactory compromise with them.
If walking away is off the table, you’ve already lost the negotiation.
It was the MC types making a laughing stock of libertarian principles, not the “libertarian” politicians endorsing Hillary Clinton, embracing marxist organizations like BLM and telling you to STFU and bake the cake.
Example of a libertarian policitician who did any of those things?
He should’ve called the parody, “Mike Clueless”.
No, Mike goes on his merry way muting everyone and commenting while totally fucking clueless.
Sarc has no family. They’re a drunken delusion.
Jo Jorgensen said we need to be actively anti-racist.
Did I hear a bell, ’cause someone just got schooled.
Jorgensen literally embraced racism. Fuck her.
What is wrong with being against racism?
Let’s see. She opined that racism is bad and black people’s lives are important.
Yeah, that’s pretty awful.
I am going to hope that you are not this wrong.
1) Libertarians are not supposed to be about you having to do anything.
2) Anti-racism is not opposition to racism. Far from it.
“Libertarians are not supposed to be about you having to do anything.”
Maybe so, but the Libertarian Party is supposed to be about actively doing stuff, and that is the context in which she made the tweet.
Besides, you are being pedantic. She wasn’t making some philosophical statement about the nature of libertarianism, she was expressing her opinion about what libertarians should value.
“Anti-racism is not opposition to racism. Far from it.”
OMG, we’ve had this debate a million times and I’m not going to do it again. The left does have their own definition of “anti-racism”, but “anti-racism” also has its plain, literal meaning.
Anti-racism is not opposition to racism.
It’s what we used to call “reverse racism”—racism directed at “white” people (whoever the left thinks that is these days).
Stuff that Jeffy didn’t like. Everyone who disagrees with him is literally Hitler, y’know?
Or “Mike Marxist Traitor”.
Only the left uses the term “anti-racism”, so their definition is the definition.
Sometimes Mike tells a lie so brazen it almost takes your breath away.