New York's Message to Gun Owners: You Can Have a Carry Permit. Good Luck Using It.
A New York Times story about the state's location-specific gun bans glosses over the vast territory they cover.

"New York's Gun Laws Sow Confusion As Nation Rethinks Regulation," says the headline over this morning's lead story in The New York Times. But after implicitly (and correctly) blaming state legislators for the "confusion," the Times identifies a different culprit in the subhead: the Supreme Court's June 23 decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen, which "overturn[ed] century-old New York gun regulations" and "produced scores of new lawsuits," leaving "jurists and citizens" to "sort out what's legal."
In Bruen, the Court held that the right to bear arms guaranteed by the Second Amendment precludes states from requiring that residents "demonstrate a special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community" before they are allowed to carry handguns outside their homes. The New York State Legislature responded with a law that eliminated the state's "proper cause" requirement for carry permits but simultaneously imposed new restrictions on public possession of firearms.
"Anticipating more gun-toting," Times reporter Jonah E. Bromwich says, the legislature "made certain areas off-limits to firearms." That gloss makes the new restrictions sound prudent and modest. In reality, they are so sweeping that they create a risk of felony charges for anyone who tries to exercise the right recognized in Bruen while engaging in quotidian activities. The Times barely hints at the breadth of New York's location-specific gun bans, which is crucial in understanding why federal judges have deemed many of them unconstitutional.
Next month, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit will hear several of those cases. The plaintiffs argue that New York has defied Bruen by making it very difficult for permit holders to legally carry guns for self-protection. It is impossible to assess that claim without recognizing the vast territory covered by what the Times describes as "certain areas" that are "off-limits to firearms."
Under New York's law, possessing a gun in one of those "sensitive places" is a felony punishable by up to four years in prison. Gun owners therefore have a strong incentive to figure out where exactly they are allowed to use their carry permits. As Bromwich concedes, that is "harder than it sounds." But he does not clearly explain why.
The "sensitive places" include "private property," which covers most of the state. The law establishes a presumption that guns are not allowed on private property unless the owner has indicated otherwise with "clear and conspicuous signage" or "has otherwise given express consent." That rule poses obvious challenges for business owners and permit holders.
A business owner might be happy to serve customers carrying concealed handguns but reluctant to announce that policy with "clear and conspicuous signage" that could alienate other customers. To ascertain whether a business has posted such a notice, a carry permit holder probably will have to get close enough that he is committing a felony should it be absent. To avoid that, he has the burden of ascertaining in advance whether the owner of, say, a gas station, supermarket, or hardware store he intends to visit has "given express consent" to guns on his property.
A permit holder who is carrying a gun cannot simply ask if that's OK when he arrives at the destination, because if the answer is no he has already broken the law. He cannot park at the business and leave his gun in the car pending "express consent," because the parking lot of the business is also "private property." And even if he parks on public property, New York's law requires him to unholster his gun, unload it, and store it in "an appropriate safe storage depository out of sight from outside of the vehicle."
While doing that, the permit holder runs the risk that his actions will be misinterpreted. He will necessarily be holding a loaded firearm, however briefly, to comply with New York's storage requirements. Depending on whether bystanders happen to see the gun and how they react, that could invite police attention.
In addition to the general rule about guns on private property, New York prohibits gun possession in a long list of privately owned locations where the owner is not allowed to opt out. These include bars, restaurants with liquor licenses, cannabis shops, theaters, museums, stadiums, amusement parks, zoos, "performance venues," conference centers, banquet halls, gaming facilities, summer camps, places of worship, "educational institutions," and medical or mental health facilities. The law also bans guns on various kinds of public property, including government buildings, public transportation stations and vehicles, libraries, parks, playgrounds, schools, colleges and universities, the sites of street fairs, and "the area commonly known as Times Square."
The 15th paragraph of the Times story acknowledges that New York's definition of "sensitive places" includes "Times Square, public transit, sports venues, houses of worship and many others." But Bromwich does not mention the presumption against guns on "private property"—the broadest category—or explain the cumulative impact of these restrictions, which make it legally perilous for gun owners to use their carry permits.
The Times does mention that even permit holders who took a class in which they learned where they were allowed to have concealed handguns "inadvertently carried their weapons" in places that were "off-limits to firearms." But Bromwich attributes those mistakes to the legal challenges that produced court orders blocking enforcement of certain location-specific gun bans. Since the 2nd Circuit stayed those orders pending the state's appeals, he says, the rules changed repeatedly, forcing the instructor who teaches the class to "change his curriculum each time."
That explanation makes it seem as if the problem is the litigation provoked by New York's restrictions rather than the restrictions themselves. But New York legislators could have avoided the "confusion" described by the Times if they had simply complied with Bruen instead of attempting an end run by discovering myriad "sensitive places" they had not previously identified.
Under Bruen, gun control laws can pass constitutional muster only if they are "consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation." After reviewing the relevant history, U.S. District Judge Glenn T. Suddaby concluded that many of New York's "sensitive places," including bars and restaurants, entertainment venues, public transportation, and Times Square, did not meet that test based on the evidence that the state had been able to muster.
Suddaby was especially skeptical of the "private property" rule, noting that it covered "not only people's homes but all privately owned property that is not open for business to the public," along with "all privately owned property that is open for business to the public." Regarding that last category, he found "little historical precedent" for New York's anti-gun presumption. Regarding the other categories of private property, Suddaby saw merit in the plaintiffs' argument that the "express consent" requirement amounted to compelled speech in violation of the First Amendment.
U.S. District Judge John L. Sinatra Jr. reached similar conclusions about the ban on guns in houses of worship and the "private property" rule. New York "argues that private property owners have always had the right to exclude others from their property and [therefore] may exclude those carrying concealed handguns," Sinatra wrote. "But that right has always been one belonging to the private property owner—not to the State….Property owners indeed have the right to exclude. But the state may not unilaterally exercise that right and, thereby, interfere with the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens who seek to carry for self-defense outside of their own homes."
The 2nd Circuit may see things differently. But is hard to deny that New York's response to Bruen is defiance disguised as compliance. You can have a carry permit, the state says, but good luck using it.
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New York! It's a helluva town!
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Yup, with a lower homicide rate than almost any large city in a state with lax gun laws. I kind of like being able to walk every block in every neighborhood safely 24/7.
When most red state cities have homicide rates that are multiples of the rate in Mexico City, you know that something is wrong.
Actually it is the exact opposite, the democrat run cities are far more dangerous than conservative cities and states. The danger is more than just gun play. In states and cities that attempt to defy the 2A we find robbery, assault, battery, public mayhem in general much higher. We also find that those same cities and states generally do not make arrests and convictions of violent crimes a priority. Before you make a statement it is better to go to the federal crime reports and verify your statement.
Never underestimate the government's ability to ban or regulate something through sheer force of will.
"sort out what's legal."
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.
That's what's legal.
Any weapon, anytime, anywhere is what the Constitution says.
(and yes, at the time, that included cannon)
Private property should be able to exclude.
Yes, but that should be the property owner's own decision to exclude, not the government's to mandate that owners affirmatively include.
Opt in is not a burden.
Opt in is a violation of law as described in this article. It is clear that the government is imposing an unlawful ban of civil rights against even the property owner, forcing them to make public comment in order to uphold their rights and the rights of others. Especially for businesses having to place a "guns allowed" sign can cause harm to that business.
I personally do not do business with small businesses that place a no guns allowed sign in the window. Part of the reason is that particular business becomes a killing field if anyone wants to they can kill with impunity. The other reason is that there is there are plenty of places that allow guns and I can spend my money there.
The biggest issue is that corporate employees of the city are REQUIRED to carry at all times. You know them as police, but they are nothing but corporate employees that have guns and are immune from prosecution for using them. In other words they have a social sovereign immunity, unlawful in the USA however it exists in every state and city. Not only that but every government employee is exempt from suit or prosecution for any violation of law or civil rights.
At that time, it didn't include breach loading rifles. They didn't exist in America then. So carry your muzzle loader.
The internet also did not exist. So your comments on this message board are not protected speech.
Charlie believes there is a "right to medical care". Unfortunately for Charlie, though, he doesn't believe you have a "right to Anesthesia" as it didn't exist in 1790 medicine practices. The best you can hope for under Charlie's concept of "rights" is to get rip-roaring drunk and hope for the best in pain relief.
Yes, it included breech-loading rifles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_rifle
Gun rights? Did someone mention gun rights?
Hey conservatives!!! How about a “Grand Compromise”? Y’all give up your “abortion boners”, in exchange for lib-tards giving up their “gun boners”?
This looks like a prime opportunity for me to explain a few things I’ve learned on this planet, while becoming a geezer. A few things, that is, about human nature, and excessive self-righteousness, tribalism, the “rush to judge” others, and the urge to punish.
“Team R” politician: “The debt is too large, and government is too powerful. If you elect ME, I will FIX that budget-balance problem SOON! But, first things first! THOSE PEOPLE OVER THERE ARE GETTING ABORTIONS!!! We must make the liberals CRY for their sins! AFTER we fix that RIGHT AWAY, we’ll get you your budget balanced and low taxes!”
“Team D” politician: “The debt is too large, and I’ll get that fixed soon, I promise you, if you elect ME! First, the more important stuff, though: THOSE PEOPLE OVER THERE ARE OWNING GUNS!!! We must PROTECT the American People from guns and gun-nuts!!! AFTER we fix that RIGHT AWAY, we’ll get our budgets balanced!”
And then we gripe and gripe as Government Almighty grows and grows, and our freedoms shrink and shrink. And somehow, the budget never DOES get balanced!
Now LISTEN UP for the summary: Parasites and politicians (but I repeat myself) PUSSY GRAB US ALL by grabbing us by… Guess what… by our excessive self-righteousness, tribalism, the “rush to judge” others, and the urge to PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH those “wrong” others! Let’s all STOP being such fools, and STOP allowing the politicians OF BOTH SIDES from constantly pussy-grabbing us all, right in our urge to… Pussy-grab the “enemies”, which is actually ALL OF US (and our freedoms and our independence, our ability to do what we want, without getting micro-managed by parasites)!!!
Shorter and sweeter: The pussy-grabbers are actually pussy-grabber-grabbers, grabbing us all in our pussy-grabbers. Let us all (as best as we can) AMPUTATE our OWN nearly-useless-anyways pussy-grabbers, and the pussy-grabber-grabbers will NOT be able to abuse us all NEARLY ass much ass these assholes are doing right now!
You are not even in the same state as the ballpark of rational argument.
It's the Squirrel. Of course it isn't.
SQRLSY One 9 hours ago Flag Comment Mute User Gun rights? Did someone mention gun rights?
Hey conservatives!!! How about a “Grand Compromise”? Y’all give up your “abortion boners”, in exchange for lib-tards giving up their “gun boners”?
So…. you're obviously not a libertarian. Why do you hang out here????
Below not meant in reply.
Hey conservatives!!! How about a “Grand Compromise”? Y’all give up your “abortion boners”, in exchange for lib-tards giving up their “gun boners”?
You don’t want a compromise. You just want someone to jump in bed with you, you can plausibly blame them because you shit the bed. And there is no compromising with people too juvenile and stupid to avoid shitting the bed.
Abortions 2019 (CDC): 625,346
Gun Violence Deaths 2019 (excluding suicide, Gun Violence Archives): 15,510
When the first number approaches the second, even just within a couple fold, then we can start to pretend that you’re a rational adult without an obnoxious teen obsession with boners of either/any kind.
"...we can start to pretend that you’re a rational adult..."
NEVER confuse the spastic asshole with either rationality or adulthood.
15,000 abortions annually nationwide = NEVER(?)
That was a pretty solid Squirrel parody. 😀 Sounds exactly like how it would misread that comment.
In addition to the general rule about guns on private property, New York prohibits gun possession in a long list of privately owned locations where the owner is not allowed to opt out. These include bars, restaurants with liquor licenses, cannabis shops, theaters, museums, stadiums, amusement parks, zoos, "performance venues," conference centers, banquet halls, gaming facilities, summer camps, places of worship, "educational institutions," and medical or mental health facilities. The law also bans guns on various kinds of public property, including government buildings, public transportation stations and vehicles, libraries, parks, playgrounds, schools, colleges and universities, the sites of street fairs, and "the area commonly known as Times Square."
Ah, yes, I remember Scott's original and repeated series of "NY's Gun Ownership Moral Panic" articles quite well. Made his position the NC Bathroom Panic look rightly libertarian in comparison, especially given the complete lack of any constitutional right to use someone else's restroom.
That's a helluva list.
I am reminded why I will never spend a dollar in NYC. Not even in the airports.
Fuck that tyrannical state. Just keep leaving people til that shithole runs out of taxes to exist. I left in 79’ and never looked back.
Fine. Most of New York City's problems stem from too many people wanting to live or visit here.
You can suppress a right, by banning the places that would infringe on those rights. Especially public spaces. This is idiocy. They know it will be challenged and they know how long it will take. If you still live in high-crime NYC, you only have yourself to blame. Decrease your crime risk and go elsewhere safer and not afraid of having you exercise your 2A rights.
> But is hard to deny that New York's response to Bruen is defiance disguised as compliance.
Shocking.
The law establishes a presumption that guns are not allowed on private property unless the owner has indicated otherwise with "clear and conspicuous signage" or "has otherwise given express consent."
Obviously the solution is to establish a presumption that guns *are* allowed on private property unless the owner has indicated otherwise with "clear and conspicuous signage" or "has otherwise given express denial."
New York City is, and always has been, totally corrupt. If you need something you "gotta knows a guy what knows a guy" that can get it for you. No mob bodyguard ever had a problem getting a gun permit. No celebrity ever had this problem so long as they knew someone.
Try to get a liquor license without a fixer, or any kind of business license for that matter. It is a city of permissions, not rights.
New York must be allowed to perish from its own corruption. Until grass grows in the middle of Time Square and the only predators on the streets are the four four legged variety, the abomination that is New York will continue.
They're still pikers when compared to the corruption that poses as Chicago. Where else is jail time a mere job hazard for being an alderman? Where else have four governors gone to prison? Where else does a teachers union break election law to give a candidate a "loan" and get away with it?
Or a building permit.
"Anticipating more gun-toting," Times reporter Jonah E. Bromwich says, the legislature "made certain areas off-limits to firearms."
No, it didn't. I made it punishable if you are caught in one of these GFZ's.
GFZs are only "off limits to firearms" for persons who want to be law abiding and who do not want to have their lives overturned by an arbitrary law.
Meanwhile, the persons you supposedly do not want to carry guns only see GFZs as a guaranteed hunting preserve where they can inflict maximum damage with limited risk to themselves.
Meanwhile, any non-law abiding citizen carrying in a GFZ will be door revolved from booking strait to the streets if that.
So NY is telling SCOTUS, in essence, to go pound sand. They just hate guns so much that there is no way in hell they are going to allow anything resembling freedom, albeit for law abiding people.
Meanwhile it has proven impossible, for anything short of airport or federal building levels of security, to actually produce a gun free zone [that is, for anyone who is not a generally law abiding citizen with something to lose].
Meanwhile other States [along with 90% of the counties in IL] are telling the overreaching government to go pound sand.
Sounds like mass nullification to me. If we don't like it, we don't gotta do it. That would look good as an epitaph for the United States.
Haven’t the Dems done this all before?
How’d that work out?
Given that the TSA fails to detect weapons, drugs and explosives somewhere between 80 and 95% of the time, I challenge your implication that even "airport or federal building levels of security" can actually produce a gun-free zone. We can't even keep them out of prisons, for God's sake.
But the state may not unilaterally exercise that right and, thereby, interfere with the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens who seek to carry for self-defense outside of their own homes.
AND YET
And actual violent criminals, even those prohibited by State and Federal law from possessing firearms or ammunition at all will, of course, carry firearms wherever they want to.
Would not this law ake it easier for cops to arrest them?
I guess if you change the definition of “criminal” to anybody carrying a gun, then criminal arrests will go up. There is a certain logic to it.
free men dont ask.
There are only 2 things anyone needs to know about the NY law.
1. It bans guns in "sensitive areas".
2. It declares the state of NY a sensitive area.
all laws are invalid. all
Never forget.
Never forget this.
The same side that accused cops of habitually hunting down and gunning down unarmed Black men, the same side that the criminal justice system is systemically racist…
…is the same side that wants stricter gun control laws to be enforced by these very same cops in this very same system.
I posted an answer on Quora.
https://www.quora.com/Some-gun-control-supporters-seem-to-have-animus-against-all-non-cop-gun-owners-instead-of-just-muggers-and-carjackers-and-gang-members-Why-It-doesnt-make-sense/answer/Michael-Ejercito
The rank-and-file fear muggers and carjackers and gang members, just like you wrote. Sadly and tragically, for too many of these people, these fears have a compelling basis in reality.
But for these spokesholes you write about, it is about their political identity.
And their political identity tells them that the White male conservative is the enemy.
What does this have to do with gun control laws?
These people associate private gun ownership with the White male conservative. As such, gun control, to them, is a tool to hurt the White male conservative.
This is why they have far more animus against Kyle Rittenhouse than the McMichaels, or Nikolas Cruz, or Tookie Williams, or Brian Mitchell, or Bernie Madoff. That is why they support decarceration and defunding the police. that is why they accuse cops of hunting down and gunning down unarmed Black men. That is why they accuse the criminal justice system of being systermically racist. Adn this is why they support gun control laws even though they would be enforced by these very same police in this very same system.
"That is why they support decarceration and defunding the police."
This life-long libertarian supports both of these things, and more. End the WoD, de-militarize the police, amnesty for weed offenders.
This life-long libertarian supports both of these things, and more.
^This life-long libertarian is either a disingenuous asshat, a retard who can’t read, or both. “Defund” is not the same thing as “de-militarize” (or End the WoD, or weed amnesty*).
Given that you say “weed amnesty” and not “non-violent drug user” I’m inclined towards retard.
Maybe, but “Defund” is a wide net, and I would argue that de-militarization of the police easily falls under “de-funding.”
Sure, let’s throw in “non-violent drug” user too, that also widens that particular net.
I appreciate your dramatically florid ad-homs though, they almost made me smile.
Gun ownership and carrying while out and about in public is a civil right based on self defense and defense of ones community.
It is a right that predates the invention of not only gun powder but the smelting of ore.
If a business cannot discriminate against customers based on sex, religion, race, etc. it cannot do so based on legitimate gun possession.
As is the case with any business that would discriminate based on the aforementioned issues I would not patronize a business that prohibits legitimate gun possession, especially concealed carry. I understand the concern over open carry.
i always wonder who picks the photos on gun articles (here and elsewhere)
i mean, who doesn't love carrying their makarov in a nylon holster?