Bari Weiss Twitter Files Reveal Systematic 'Blacklisting' of Disfavored Content
Twitter employees have indicated that shadow banning—at least by some definitions—is both real and common.

The second installment of the Twitter Files—disclosures about politically motivated content suppression on the platform—has been released, this time from independent journalist Bari Weiss.
"A new #TwitterFiles investigation reveals that teams of Twitter employees build blacklists, prevent disfavored tweets from trending, and actively limit the visibility of entire accounts or even trending topics—all in secret, without informing users," writes Weiss.
1. A new #TwitterFiles investigation reveals that teams of Twitter employees build blacklists, prevent disfavored tweets from trending, and actively limit the visibility of entire accounts or even trending topics—all in secret, without informing users.
— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) December 9, 2022
The previous installment, released by independent journalist Matt Taibbi, focused on the confused and chaotic decision on the part of Twitter executives to offer a "hacked materials" rationale for suppressing the New York Post's Hunter Biden laptop story; as such, the files mostly provided more evidence of what was already fairly well-known.
The Weiss installment, on the other hand, offers significant evidence of something that many people merely suspected was taking place: wholesale blacklisting of Twitter accounts that were perceived to be causing harm.
Weiss provides several examples of ways in which the platform limited the reach of various high-profile users: Jay Bhattacharya, a Stanford University professor of medicine who opposed various COVID-19 mandates and lockdowns, was on a "trends blacklist," which meant that his tweets would not appear in the trending topics section; right-wing radio host Dan Bongino landed on a "search blacklist," which meant that he did not show up in searches; and conservative activist and media personality Charlie Kirk was slapped with a "do not amplify" label. At no point did anyone at Twitter communicate to these individuals that their content was being limited in such a manner.
These actions, of course, sound a lot like "shadow banning," which is the theory that Twitter surreptitiously restricts users' content, even in cases where the platform has not formally issued a ban or suspension. For years, various figures on the right and contrarian left have complained that the reach of their tweets had substantially and artificially diminished for nonobvious reasons, contrary to the stated claims of top-level Twitter staffers who steadfastly asserted: "We do not shadow ban."
This claim depends upon how the term is defined. To be clear, Twitter has publicly admitted that it suppresses tweets that "detract from the conversation," though the platform's plan was to eventually move toward a policy of informing users about suppression efforts—a move that never took place.
If shadow banning is defined as secretly making a user's content utterly undiscoverable, even by visiting his own page, then it's technically true that there is no shadow banning. (Twitter seems to have defined the term that way.) But when most people complain about shadow banning, they are objecting to a secretive process of restricting, hiding, and limiting content in general, without informing users about why these decisions have been made. Under this definition, it's crystal clear that Twitter engages in shadow banning.
As a private company, Twitter was obviously within its rights to do this, but users also have the right to be furious. The lack of transparency is startling, and the rationale behind the policy is wholly contrary to a culture of free speech. According to Weiss, previous Twitter Head of Trust and Safety Yoel Roth admitted in internal Slack conversations that "the hypothesis underlying much of what we've implemented is that if exposure to, e.g., misinformation directly causes harm, we should use remediations that reduce exposure, and limiting the spread/virality of content is a good way to do that."
That's a very fraught proposition that would appear to justify an extreme amount of censorship. As always, it's important to keep in mind that social media moderators, misinformation beat reporters, federal health advisers, and national intelligence officials have all failed to correctly distinguish actual misinformation from true information—the New York Post laptop story being just one prominent example.
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So, totes no government involvement? Whew!
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"Disfavored content is a nice, neutral way of putting it.
As if the people making the decisions at twitter could be held responsible for the coincidence that almost all of the content that was "disfavored" also happened to be content that would have been "politically inconvenient" for the only one of the two "viable" political parties with which it's socially acceptable to publicly agree for anyone looking to make a living in the "tech" field; that is, unless they happen to work for Peter Thiel, and maybe now Elon Musk who the rest of tech is now expected to refer to as "repugnant" and spit on in public if they happen to find themselves physically close enough to do so.
"As always, it's important to keep in mind that social media moderators, misinformation beat reporters, federal health advisers, and national intelligence officials have all failed to correctly distinguish actual misinformation from true information—the New York Post laptop story being just one prominent example."
Again, "misinformation" as it has been defined is not necessarily untrue, it is information that has been deemed contrary to the public interest. It is a concept which directly contradicts the notion of free speech as a societal good.
Right- even look at the weasel words Twitter was giving. "We will suppress content that distracts from the conversation."
Well hoo boy. Nothing distracts more from a conversation than inconvenient facts people can't agree upon. Because they think conversation means "Everyone agrees with me."
Nothing ends a conversation faster than turning everything into a monolog. They letterally suppressed conversation itself.
Yeah, deeming this as some sort of failure of neutral actors due to misunderstandings of the subjective value of content is incredibly obtuse.
This is blatant collusion by government and political entities, consultants who migrate back and forth between public and private offices to act as go-betweens in the interest of those entities, and the mass media to establish deliberately crafted narratives and punish those who don't parrot those narratives.
This isn't the sort of thing that spouting "we need a free market!" will fix, because the people who actually hold the power are putting their thumb on the scale for their side. In a republican system, if these people aren't going to be held accountable for these actions, then dissolution is the only real solution, because there's no way that any real compromise can be had.
Weiss provides several examples of ways in which the platform limited the reach of various high-profile users: Jay Bhattacharya, a Stanford University professor of medicine who opposed various COVID-19 mandates and lockdowns, was on a "trends blacklist," which meant that his tweets would not appear in the trending topics section;
Algorithms are good for democracy.
Especially Al-Gore-ithms!
Committees in the back room deciding what gets promoted and what does not is NOT an algorithm.
Yes, it is. It is added as the [relevance] + (filter).
The algorithm is literally designed to change weights on pages and results, tweaking the weights of those things is in fact, part of the algorithm. The fact that it's planted in there by human hands doesn't change that. Because the algorithm is written by human hands.
That is really stretching what “algorithm” typically means in discussions of this type. Kind of curious that you insist on stretching the meaning of this particular word when you also insist on strict adherence to the historical meaning of “fascist” even though everyone knows “fascist” is commonly used as a synonym for “authoritarian”.
You literally stated in the roundup thread 2 days ago that a chronological posting of tweets was an algorithm...
True. But they sure as hell got results for Republican child-molester Warren Gamaliel Harding. H.L. Mencken was the whistleblower who called attention to "The President's Daughter" while The Kleptocracy struggled to block its publication and, failing that, to evade it.
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3) Yada
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Just as Russian ads on Facebook got Trump elected, the Twitter coverup got Biden elected. Voters are so stupid that they vote based upon social media.
Even if they did both swing the election (which cant be said with certainty, though both were close elections) one of the things is substantially worse than the other.
I think both claims are nothing but sour grapes.
One claim involves relatively unknown trolls from another country posting facebook memes...
The other involves active coordination from a major political party in OUR country, current (and we know now) former feds working hand-in-glove with said party to do what is in effect an in kind campaign contribution at the 11th hour for their candidate.
But totes, bowf sides
That whooshing noise was my point flying over your head.
You knew about the story, didn't you? It was all over the place. Yes certain media outlets pretended it didn't happen, but it was available for anyone who went looking for it. The people who cared knew. The people who didn't know about it likely cared about it as much as you care about any Trump scandal, and would have been influenced as much as you would by some story about Trump on MSLSD. As in not at all.
It has been funny watching people on the left make this argument of no big deal. It’s definitely a change from the “it’s not happening” position, at least.
It does impress me, though, how so many can discount the truly awful situation the twitter banning and censorship was in order to cover for their political team.
It's pretty gutsy: Basing "everyone knew" on their own denials and obstruction not being 100% effective.
Excuse me! I believe we have moved passed the "it's no big deal" mantra, and have landed squarely on the "every one knew about this two years ago. This is old news" narrative.
Please do better to keep up. If you are unsure of the current narrative, please refer to corporate legacy media for your up-to-date talking points. You can find them on Twitter as they continue to promise they are leaving the dying platform.
It was a close election and I think a lot of people went for Biden because they wanted something more "dignified" than what Trump was offering. This story could have changed that calculus for some people. Or not. Who knows? But it is at least plausible.
Outside of Twitter, that story was well known. Hell, all Facebook seemed to talking about is how no one was allowed to talk about it. So the story WAS there. Just no on Twitter, and not on old print rags that no one reads anyway. The idea that voters didn't know is silly. Even sillier is the idea that dedicated dyed-in-the-wool progressives would have switched to Trump if only they had known that his son was a total cad.
Even sillier is the idea that dedicated dyed-in-the-wool progressives would have switched to Trump if only they had known that his son was a total cad.
Who claimed that?
Biden didn't just get the votes of "dedicated dyed-in-the-wool progressives." He won because he was able to hoodwink a significant number of normal people, people who might have been outraged to discover that Biden and his team weren't actually "restoring norms" to American politics. He didn't fortify the election enough that he could do without those votes.
Even Reason pushed the Biden is a moderate narrative despite his campaign platform.
So, what MAGA sore losers really are upset about is that they didn’t get free amplification of the Hunter Biden story to make sure it reached independents who don’t follow the daily news.
Notice how Laursen tries to portray fair treatment as "sore loser"-ism. A rational person expects the truth to be treated the same as other truths, but because he wants and expects the rules to favor Team Blue he derides the expectation of impartial rules.
Revealing.
See, this line of logic is so bizarre to me. Media and socials worked tirelessly to remove, dismiss, and ignore the story, yet you claim everyone knew, and assert that means it's no big deal.
Can't you see the illogic of that position at all? We should be cool with censoring because at the end of the day, we can falsely claim that everyone knew anyway, so no big deal?
The idea that what mattered from the contents of the laptop were the nude/drug use pics and other vulgarity is the new excuse being put forward by the "dyed in the wool progressives".
What would have reportedly changed the votes of enough moderates in "swing" states to potentially alter the electoral college outcome is the documentation of influence-selling by Hunter in making lucrative deals with foreign companies (would a Ukranian NatGas company run by a Russian Oligarch have given a $1Million/year paying seat on their board to an inexperienced drug addict whose last name wasn't Biden?), and the barely coded references to "ten percent being held for The Big Guy" implying (and later potentially confirmed by statements from insiders) that Joe Biden himself would eventually wet his beak from those deals.
Another distraction that the "dyed in the wool progressives" love to throw around is the overall popular vote margin as if it actually matters in the electoral voting or that many votes would need to have been swayed to change the outcome; more than 100% of the popular vote margin held by HRC in the 2016 popular vote was attributable to California, a state where Presidential candidates from both parties don't waste resources trying to advertise or campaign because at least 45% of the voters here might not even be able to name the person they voted for, they just pull for the Dem (I continue to believe that trump could have won the state if there were errors on the ballots in L.A. and SF Counties listing him as the Democrat), regardless of whether the candidate is Barack Obama (easily the most charismatic President of the last 50 years) or literally a bundle of asparagus. More than 25% of Biden's popular vote margin in 2020 is attributable to Los Angeles County alone (almost 2 million of the 7 million margin), but in the "rust belt" states, if maybe 100k votes had been cast differently we'd be in the 2nd term of the trump administration now, and the Dems in Congress would be working on a 4th or 5th set of doomed impeachment charges instead of borrowing additional $Trillions and calling it somehow a means of reducing inflation.
The effect on the election is tangential to the actual issue though, which is Twitter working hand-in-hand with the DNC and their mass media allies to influence said election by blocking discussion of a perfectly legitimate news story from Twitter, or well-poisoning by glow-in-the-dark scumbags who claimed it was "Russian hacking."
And they were able too see the danger when they were talking about what MUSK might do:
https://simulationcommander.substack.com/p/the-twitter-files-part-2-hits-the
Seriously, the impact on the election is becoming the strawman red herring that the left is relying on at this point.
“We can do anything bad we want, but unless you can prove it changed the election, it’s ok.”
That's basically how it's being framed. I mean, it's right there with the argument that almost all of the media is censoring information, but since everyone knew about it anyway, it's no big deal.
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1601381413642964992?t=Dn9EsryIuq5gayBo8yEa6w&s=19
This project was preposterous yet its leaders were unable to see this, having become infected with groupthing, coming to believe – sincerely – that it was Twitter's responsibility to control, as much as possible, what people could talk about, how often, and with whom.
The same take Mike L always takes. And it's true to some degree but what is left off is 'what if I care about it and want to try to convince others of the validity of my arguments?'
I have a strong Twitter account. Lots of friends and Randos come to it every day. We explore both sides of the aisle, I do mine, they do theirs, we argue, we engage, sometimes one of us learns something that changes our perspective on the other side, may even affect our voting.
So I post the Hunter Biden story. My account gets shut down or shadow banned, or that post is not available to my followers. They don't see it, others in their feeds don't see any reaction to it. Maybe my account is trended down altogether. I'm wondering what happened or fighting with Twitter to get my feed back.
Now do that times a hundred thousand accounts similar to mine. No influence on the outcome? Everyone has the ability to find that info if they want to? What if the only way they might have seen it is through my account. Again, multiply that by 100,000 and make it uni-directional.
It's a little more than care/don't care.
Twitter owes you nothing. They were and are free to have a political bias.
At the behest of your government? You're good with that.
Yes he is. Because it favors liberals.
He has now gone from conspiracy of conservative victimization to it is happening but it is fine.
I wouldn’t be good with that, but it hasn’t been shown. So far, the worst we’ve seen is possibly liberal elements in the FBI suggesting actions to Twitter execs who were glad to take action voluntarily because they had liberal bias themselves.
That’s concerning if you are a highly conservative Twitter user or advertiser, but within Twitter’s first amendment rights and not concerning for Twitter users who themselves have a liberal or non-political attitude.
It clear that you don’t give a shit about this. What isn’t clear is:
1. Why I should give a shit that you don’t give a shit?
2. Why I shouldn’t give a shit about this?
3. Why I should stop giving a shit because you don’t give a shit?
Not giving a shit about Twitter suppressing the Hunter Biden story or the Russian ads is a sensible position. Neither made a significant difference in election outcomes.
Neither made a significant difference in election outcomes
One was blatantly false. The other, how do you determine it would not have played a role if the information was suppressed?
I know that Twitter’s suppression of the story didn’t matter because the story was widely known and discussed.
To make this whole Twitter matter into a big deal one has to buy into the pretense that Twitter somehow controlled Americans’ access to news and information. That just isn’t so.
Claiming that the suppression of a story is a non-event because the suppressed story didn't affect the election is the definition of circular logic.
The suppression made the story that did get out about the suppression of the story itself and not about the content of the emails on the laptop; that content is what could potentially have altered the election outcome, but very few people heard much about it, and there was no public exploration of the veracity/importance of that content until after the votes were counted because the MSM didn't bother to call out Biden and others for the misrepresentation of what the letter from "51 former intelligence and counterintelligence officials" actually said. The letter itself stated that the story "had the hallmarks" of a disinformation campaign (and entirely subjective statement) but that there was no concrete evidence suggesting that to be the case, Biden and others were allowed to go unchallenged by the MSM, Social Media platoforms (and their cadre of political activists turned "fact check" experts) with the assertion that those "experts" had determined conclusively that the laptop was a Russian fabrication.
Ironically in 2016 (and the 2-3 years which followed), there was nothing like any similar level of skepticism regarding the "Steele Dossier" which turned out to have been largely fabricated by PR experts on the HRC/DNC payroll and fed via a Russian National back to Steele who was being paid by the lawyers for the DNC to compile that information.
I bet you also think it's purely a coincidence that so many of Musk's other operations are suddenly coming under such intense (and strategically leaked) scrutiny now that Elon has a copy of all the unredacted communications between the Feds and twitter execs, and the willingness to make them public.
I don't think you have to be a Trump supporter to find it disturbing that a number of media companies colluded to bury a news story that made one candidate look bad right before an election. Or that they manipulated content to make sure people were not exposed to certain viewpoints regarding covid and many other topics. Yes, the real information was out there for those willing to look for it. But a depressing number of people get their news from social media feeds and late night comedians.
"Yes, the real information was out there for those willing to look for it. "
And let's not forget, the MSM made sure that while that info was technically out there, it had big fat (*) on it.
They did everything they could to not only silence it, but label any sources that ran the story as far-right cranks pushing Russian Disinformation (TM)...
Same as they did with lab leak. Same as they did with any concerns about the vaccines effectiveness or possible side effects. To look the other way when the trend is this overwhelmingly bad is to whistle past the graveyard.
So, what? Every time I see complaints like this it really translates to “I think my fellow Americans are too dumb to judge things on their own so I want to control what news they consume.”
…… but enough about twitters mission statement.
There's a difference between wanting to control where the general public gets their "news" and not wanting to allow virtually all of those channels to be controlled by people who have aggressively and deliberately chosen to carry water for one particular political party.
If the TV Networks, NYT, WaPo, and all the tech companies with enough power to have an essential monopoly on online discourse (when Parler got too big for the liking of the tech establishment, Apple and Amazon had it destroyed in under 72 hours based on the lie that most of the coordination ahead of 1/6/21 had happened on that platform) were all glowing about trump instead of sponsoring the daily "two minutes of hate", would you be as dismissive about the dangers of such partisan control over the "fourth estate"? Maybe you'd be tromping around in a MAGA hat buying that party line because it's the one they were pushing?
If you can't see the danger inherent in the ranks of the organizations who are supposed to "hold government accountable" being filled out uniformly with sycophants for either side, regardless of which one it is, why should anyone give any credence to your take on it anyway?
But a depressing number of people get their news from social media feeds
ENB sheepishly raises hand.
Honestly, social media is now a better source than corporate media.
There's a chance truth might slip through the former.
Complaining for a friend, I suppose?
Of course you do. The fact that one was true and the otter invented is irrelevant to you.
Just 16%
https://thepostmillennial.com/flashback-16-of-biden-voters
I'm sure that poll was as accurate as the ones predicting the outcome of the last election.
Yeah? But whutabout the one before that?
sarcasmic
"Just as Russian ads on Facebook got Trump elected, the Twitter coverup got Biden elected..."
Can you say "false equivalence"?
If you're a slimy pile of lefty shit, you can.
Funny how people thought Facebook was “the end of democracy as we know it”, while Twitter is a “nothing burger”
Can’t have anything to do with political allegiances, now can it?!
No, certainly not!
Obviously they’re highly concerned about social media’s effect on democracy in which treating these situations differently is completely warranted by the circumstances in a manner that is totally unclear.
sarcasmic, at least, wasn’t advocating for treating them differently. He was saying neither mattered.
I’m sure there are “people” who think that. None of them hang out in this commentariat.
If you think this is just about the election, you are cray cray.
While Marxists and extreme trans activists were bragging about putting their content in schools, people saying "this is wrong" were being silenced. And suddenly we have a world where JK Rowling (!!!) is considered an intolerant transphobe.
This didn't happen coincidentally. People didn't wake up one day worried that objecting to boys changing in their daughter's locker room could be career-limiting speech. That only happened because these Tech companies were deliberately amplifying one signal while suppressing any pushback.
It would be one thing if this language were limited to places known for their bias- like WaPo or NYT. But this was happening in platforms that ostensibly were passing information freely, and only suppressed VIOLENT speech- Taliban and al Qaeda notwithstanding.
Not to mention vax hesitant people who were convinced to get the jab through only one side of the argument being presented. A side that notably dismissed or ignored or covered up any potential side effects/risks…
Edit: I understand overt is talking about long term formation, which is more important imo. Both short and long term consequences/instances are happening simultaneously.
Maybe. But look who wrote the article. Robby has actually turned the tables by infiltrating The Kleptocracy as an opposition talking head. Nazis have infiltrated Reason since Ron Paul's Girl Bulliers began cross-dressing as men. Stossel was excommunicated as soon as he noticed the media lizards surrounding him. Ours is the turning tide that lifts all boats, and we should expect no less than for rats on their hulks to swim hitherwards in the tradition of all looters since time began.
No, everyone knows what the definition of 'shadow ban' is. It's the dramatic reduction or complete stopping of a user's content from being recommended or ever trending and/OR showing up in searches while keeping the account in 'good standing' from the perspective of the account holder. You're allowed to post content, you've received no strikes, no warnings, everything is working as normal, but mysteriously, no one is engaging with or viewing your content... in this case, tweets.
Yes, there may be different ways that different platforms achieve this goal, as different platforms handle content different ways, but the result is essentially the same.
This 'shadow banning' can include, but not be limited to:
content not being recommended to followers.
notifications not being sent or being restricted
content not showing up in searches
content stopped from trending or its 'relevance' rating downranked
Now, sure, the social media companies might do any other number of things to that content-- stripping 'likes' (if 'likes' are part of the algorithm which determine 'trending' status) for instance.
These actions, of course, sound a lot like "shadow banning," which is the theory that Twitter surreptitiously restricts users' content, even in cases where the platform has not formally issued a ban or suspension.
It was a theory until...
This is the definition that Twitter used:
https://twitter.com/KitschCollector/status/1601025765382160384/photo/1
So they defined it very narrowly, meaning, completely stopping the transmission of the content entirely without the author's knowledge.
And they lied, because they do shadowban– even using their “narrow definition”-- by political ideology. That is known and no longer in dispute.
How is this known? Nothing in Bari Weiss' twitter thread showed this.
The reasons for the shadow bans was that these individuals had not violated their terms of service. I know a lot about Bhattacharyia, a little about Dan Bongino and nothing really about Charlie Kirk.
In the case of the first two, they were shadowbanned by virtue of their ideology.
"Do not amplify" basically means that the person's tweets are prevented from showing up on trending lists, which drives engagement.
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1601378939209134081?t=rVjUamyCmBoBSMX1zH4Tcg&s=19
49. In Twitter docs execs frequently refer to “bots,” e.g. “let’s put a bot on that.” A bot is just any automated heuristic moderation rule. It can be anything: every time a person in Brazil uses “green” and “blob” in the same sentence, action might be taken.
[Thread]
“We may suspend or terminate your account or cease providing you with all or part of the Services at any time for any or no reason…”
It a lie because of the context in which they used their definition. The public meaning of "shadow banning" was far wider than the definition that Twitter used. By using a non-public meaning and doing so deliberately, Twitter was, in fact, lying.
If you produce a product saying it was "fat free" and people objected saying that it contains fat and you said "No it doesn't" because your definition of fat was chicken fat only, you would be successfully sued for misrepresentation.
Just like "gain-of-function." If I define it differently than you, then I'm not doing it.
And, again, everything in the files is "viewpoint filtering" and "blacklist" and "do not amplify".
It's like saying, "We didn't 'disappear' anybody! We just chopped up their body and buried it in a ditch."
That would be true, but Twitter stated their definition.
Sorry, but you don't get to define the common meaning of words.
That’s not what I’m trying to do.
What I’m saying is that Twitter told everyone what _they_ meant by the word. You don’t have to agree with their definition.
The fact that Twitter’s euphemism is more on-the-nose than the accusatory lingo couldn’t be more Millennial.
“We weren’t shadow-banning! We were viewpoint filtering!”
Yeah I am comfortable calling Twitter's actions a lie.
Essentially, people accused Twitter of being "at the scene of the crime" and Twitter said "We weren't *near* the scene of the crime"- Now they know that people would assume "near" to mean "at or around" the scene of the crime. But they also knew that they could *technically* claim that "near" *could* be exclusive of "at". To do this is intentionally misleading.
People were talking about shadow banning as surreptitiously limiting the spread of tweets (As Diane documents above). Twitter said shadow banning wasn't happening. They chose a very specific, disingenuous definition that was difficult to discern. Technically, if you knew my exact account name @Overt, you could go to the URL twitter dot com /overt and find my tweets. You couldn't search for that profile. You couldn't discover it. You couldn't follow that profile and be notified of its tweets. No, you wouldn't get to see ANY tweets of @Overt unless you bookmarked that profile, or knew to manually type the user name into the URL.
It was a completely, lawyerly attempt to dissemble from what they were doing. It was a non-denial that any politician would be proud of.
I was going to say 'very reminiscent of',
Trump: "The FBI wiretapped me!"
FBI: "Phbbt! Nobody taps copper wire phones anymore!"
but it's not reminiscent, it's the same dishonest, bad faith shit.
No govt involvement at all:
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1600243756074049537
Tuesday, Twitter Deputy General Counsel (and former FBI General Counsel) Jim Baker was fired. Among the reasons? Vetting the first batch of “Twitter Files” – without knowledge of new management.
it's unbelievable that this happened.
and it shows so much.
I am curious to know what "Vetting" meant.
Did he select which emails would get sent? Did he have the ability to delete certain emails? Or did he just get enough information to pass onto Democrat Party operatives so they could develop preemptive responses?
Yeah, the real question here is, what exactly did he let through and was anything redacted or wiped before Taibbi got the materials?
I'm guessing the answer to all of your questions is "yes".
Musk has strongly hinted that files were deleted but would be recovered.
Cite? (Not asshole Mike question. I am genuinely curious)
"Most important data was hidden (from you too) and some may have been deleted, but everything we find will be released," Musk replied.
Quote from this article:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/elon-musk-tells-jack-dorsey-important-twitter-files-hidden-bosses-suggests-deleted
"Twitter employees have indicated that shadow banning—at least by some definitions—is both real and common."
So Humpty Dumpty was right all along? Words have no meaning.
There WAS shadow banning, by any definition with a rational basis.
The really scary part of 1984 was never the cameras, it was newspeak.
Welcome to the revolution.
"something that many people merely suspected was taking place"
No, not even close. When you observe something time and again, it rises beyond mere suspicion. The Babylon Bee banned? Trump banned? Yet BLM inciting actual Burn Loot Murder riots is of no consequence, and Marxist academics were promoted like nobody's business.
It didn't take a political scientist to know what was going on.
Bari Weiss Twitter Files Reveal Systematic 'Blacklisting' of Disfavored Content
Fine it is happening but it is a good thing.
wholesale blacklisting of Twitter accounts that were perceived to be causing harm.
Perceived by whom? An important part of the story.
As a private company, Twitter was obviously within its rights to do this, but users also have the right to be furious.
If done at the behest or coercion of government this is not necessarily true.
Private individuals and groups still often engage in censorship. As long as government entities are not involved, this type of censorship technically presents no First Amendment implications.
https://www.carnegielibrary.org/the-first-amendment-and-censorship/
And yes. Prof Volokh has discussed this.
Twitter is CA based, and CA law says not so much to "muh private companize!!" A mall owner was told he had to let the left pass out leaflets despite the mall being privately owned, because he was saying 'no' to the left, and one just cannot do that.
He had to let the left speak on his private property.
Yes. The fifth circuit discussion delves heavily into the 5 applicable laws.
Wonder why reason trashed the decision instead of reading it.
Should say USSC rulings. Not laws.
The left owns every institution by a wide margin. They totally dominate.
So all the institutions cater to the left. We are doomed if this doesnt get reversed.
Slow march through the institutions. Then you see people blindly using appeals to authority once the march completes.
The lack of transparency is startling, and the rationale behind the policy is wholly contrary to a culture of free speech.
Yes, Robby, Yes. Thank you, Robby. This has been my numero uno complaint around these parts. Thank you for at least saying this. We desperately need more of this kind of commentary around Reason and we need it five years ago. But I'll take anything I can get. You don't have to support a federal intervention into algorithm design but you can still criticize the utterly creepy way in which these platforms do business. You can criticize their corporatism, their lying and... their hiring of deep state hacks to we know are acting as liaisons to the federal government who have pushed these policies onto the tech companies, all of whom fell all over themselves to comply.
This article heavily downplays the issue.
Fuck that.
Reason, and Robby, have been complicit in this shit for years. They delivered lockdowns and forced medical procedures and all the rest of the totalitarianism.
Never forget.
I would say "must", rather than "can still".
But of course, I understand how zero knowledge algorithms work and this is Teen Reason, the government *just* telling everyone they aren't allowed to discuss the FBI violates freedom of speech, but a network of random groups of people going around stealing the "F", "B", and "I" off of every keyboard in existence and punching people in the face for saying "FBI" is, you know, just a group of random people whom we can't be sure if they're organized or not. Who cares that they're far more effective at suppressing speech about the FBI than the government or the FBI? We can't prove, only suspect, that they're the FBI or the government so there's no free speech issue.
Yes. And what is even worse is that the whole 'Thick Libertarian' thing really OUGHT to cover this, even though it doesn't.
Thick Libertarians argue that things like "sex work" should not only be legal, but that a good libertarian society should at least not stigmatize it if not celebrate it. That's not my words, that's from Stephanie Slade earlier.
https://reason.com/2022/03/19/two-libertarianisms/
But how can thick libertarians believe we should celebrate sex work, and ostracize "bigots" that dislike sex work as destructive, but be silent on "Private Companies" interfering with freedom of expression? It makes no god damn sense.
Dunno. I've been reading that this is a nothingburger. And, as Robby patiently explained a day or two ago, old news. I've reached the conclusion that there is nothing to see here. But Trump had dinner with some guy who Reason has labeled a fascist. Now that's what I call cutting edge libertarian journolism.
Nick Gillespie for one, has repeatedly criticized how social media was moderated, and he has been criticizing them for a long time.
NO! Twitter was violating its own terms of service, and was acting in direct contradiction to all the marketing as being the world's communication platform.
In a just world, users could have sued for this hypocrisy and inconsistency. But he US judicial system is way too slow and expensive for mere users to get any justice in cases like this.
1. Twitter (and the others) should have been able to defend their actions immediately, with the only acceptable delays being for working hours and holidays. If they were not, it means they did not justify their actions before taking them; they just acted willy nilly with no thought.
2. Loser pays would make it feasible for ordinary users to sue, and would make Twitter pay for their actions.
S230 has been applied to contract law. So apparently it doesn't matter.
As a private company, Twitter was obviously within its rights to do this
Let's be clear, no leftist actually believes this. Its like when they try to tell you jesus would love drag queen story hour, they are co-opting your own values to use against you in argument only.
No leftist believe a private company should be allowed to do anything outside of their control, ESPECIALLY deciding who gets to speak or not. They are hiding behing YOUR values of freedom when they say this, at the time when it's good for them and they will abandon that line as soon as it's good for them.
^bingo
Right out of Alinsky—use their own standards against them.
Absolutely, look at the snit fit ENB has when some whore gets banned from social media.
BOAF SIDEZ stalking horse.
Yep.
Of course government officials can hire others to violate your First Amendment rights, as long as they do not do it themselves.
Of course, government officials can hire a private company to come seize your firearms without cause, as long as they do not do it themselves.
Of course, government officials can hire a private company to quarter military officers in your home, as long as they do not do it themselves.
Of course, government officials can direct a private company to search your home, as long as they do not do it themselves.
The above is certainly not violations against your Constitutional rights.
Private companies, I SAID! Meh, pay attention!
Social media users would have no standing. Users of social media are not customers, they are the product. It's free to users for a reason because they use your data to make money. If Burger King gave away burgers they stated were half-pound patties and they didn't turn out to be that size, you couldn't sue them.
If they violate their own terms of service, the government could get involved but regular people who voluntarily choose a free service can't get in on the action.
Is your claim a ToS doesn’t exist? That it is not in any way a contract?
Things like this don’t exist:
https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/15/facebook-2018-breaches-dpc-decision/
Yes, they are liable for company failures or violations.
Another example:
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/facebook-to-pay-90-million-to-settle-data-privacy-lawsuit
I want to see him go to Harlem, the South Side of Chicago, South Central LA... and explain to the Twitter users there how they are Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg's property. The content those users generate, the fruits of their labors, belong to Elon and Mark not them because that's how the law is written.
Wrong. When you sign up, you agree to a TOS, and in exchange for using the service, they sell your information to marketers. It isn’t a free service.
I pay for subscriptions and ads, and donate to reason. Compared to any other publication they are miles ahead of the slavering pack, and have been 1968. I wouldn't piss on the rest of those tangled webs if they were on fire. I only wish their mindless minions would respond in kind.
Twitter services are NOT free, you pay for it with your data. Were Twitter to buy that data, it would have to pay for it, so it "pays" for it with a service, not cash. This is a straight contractual relationship one in which services and data are exchanged.
Users definitely have standing and could sue Twitter out of existence if they chose to.
Go look at the Twitter ToU or the ToU for any major free platform. It is written so you have no real say, and why would they offer anything more? If the ToU did, the social media company should fire its lawyers.
Yes, they sell data but they sell massive collections of data — any single user’s account is insignificant.
Wait til the lawyers get their hands on it.
Significance is not the point. The point is that they failed to keep up their end of the contract. If they take your data in trade for a service it doesn't matter what they do with it. If you trade services for a car it doesn't matter if the car ends up sold individually or a package deal for 1000 cars. If the service received is not what was offered, there is a case against the service provider. Check any airline or cable company for how much they pay when they fail to provide.
What contract are you talking about?
The Terms of Use _is_ the contract. And there’s no way a site that gives you a free account is going to offer a ToU that is not stacked in their favor.
“We may suspend or terminate your account or cease providing you with all or part of the Services at any time for any or no reason…”
Read it yourself:
https://twitter.com/en/tos
>>This claim depends upon how the term is defined.
there is a definition. some refuse to acknowledge it and write fence-sitting articles.
When Reason wasn't on the fence shadow banning was right wing crankery.
true. if I have to accept a simple shift in the breeze then okay. I prefer exclamation points.
It depends on what the definition of “is” is.
nice. good timing.
First Tulsi and now Kyrsten. How does Reason feel about this declaration of independence? Will Reason abandon the Democratic party as well? Only time will tell.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/tired-partisanship-senator-kyrsten-sinema-abandons-dems-goes-independent
She's gonna have to reconcile with her flirtations with Marxism. Or who knows, maybe not. FYI, I would not put Sinema anywhere near the category of Tulsi. For instance, don't expect a duet between Jocko Willink and Sinema any time soon.
That's presidential material right there.
She's not like Tulsi at the moment, but she's definitely a lot different in attitude and perspective from where she was as a state legislator. Her primary issue is that she has a lot better future-time orientation than her colleagues, and it frustrates them to no end that she wasn't ignoring that for short-term gains.
Huge difference. Tulsi gave up her congressional seat and later left the Democrat party. Kyrsten left the party to keep her seat.
We don't know for sure what she'll do as an "independent" but I'm reasonably sure we'll be soon saying "Meet the new Sinema, same as the old Sinema".
>>Will Reason abandon the Democratic party as well?
lol read it in the voice Batman narrator William Dozier
The bigger question is what now for Manchin.
Tester is another wild card. He is probably going run again, Manchin I'm not so certain of. Tester hasn't won a majority in the last two elections, winning with a plurality. Montana is more red than his last election run. I'm pretty sure that our Attorney General, Knudsen, is setting himself up for the Senate run in 24. His family has been prepping him for larger offices his whole life. I know him, not a huge fan of his family (his dad is a complete asshat) and there's been some legal trouble over land access issues for a legion park that could hurt him in a contested primary, but I generally agree with Austin's policies. Governor probably isn't open, as it's currently held by a Republican who can serve one more term, so Senate is probably his best option.
Austin is also a former speaker of the state house, won AG in a landslide and from an established political family (his mom has long served in the state house). He also has the ranching and agriculture background to play up.
Tester may conclude that to head off Knudsen, he should switch parties and hope to beat Knudsen in a primary because I think his chances in a general against Knudsen are not great.
Tester is a total party hack at this point, so the question of whether the Montana GOP can take him out will be dependent on getting someone who's also from Montana, like Tester is, and making the point that he votes the same as the California yuppie scumbags that are polluting Bozeman and Helena.
He'll fake independence just like he has for years. His job is for the Democratic party to pretend that not all of it's members are robots who vote as they're told to vote.
Just for fun I looked up both Manchin and Sanders on the Freedomworks website to see their voting record on issue related to liberty. Manchin's score was 9.1 %. Sanders was 16.7 %.
That's right, your liberty is in better hands with Sanders than with Manchin because Manchin is absolutely unprincipled. If I were McConnell, I would make it my life's work to destroy Manchin instead of inviting him to the Republican party.
She really is BI-partisan.
I'm guessing the journalists/censors would be less blasé about the slippery slope of shadowbanning if Musk were to turn their former toy against them.
I think the bigger sub-story here is the reaction from the media sphere (and yes, looking at you Reason alumnus Radley Balko). There are so many layers here it’s hard to know where to begin. But one that hit me today was how most journalists probably cast themselves as inheritors of the Woodward & Bernstein legacy, speaking truth to power, 1960s journalism, skeptical of CIA/FBI power, left-of-center, anti-war etc.
I’m trying to imagine a journalist from that actual period shrugging off, let alone cheering on the involvement in deep state former FBI/CIA/NSA hacks working at media companies in their shadowbanning/censorship/redaction departments. And yet this is exactly where we are. A couple of independent reports have done little more than report on a trove of released corporate documents with FBI/CIA fingerprints all over them, and the reaction from the so-called Gatekeepers of the First Amendment as been at minimum to call it all “nothing” and at maximum attack these reporters with vitriol and bile.
Sure, in the precision-of-language game, it might be stealing a base to say that just because the former FBI/CIA hack worked at Twitter doesn’t mean there’s anything untoward going on.
The problem, though is that every time we get close to this evidence, there’s a strong stench of government collusion coming off of it, and when we follow that stench, there seems to always be a former FBI/CIA hack standing upwind with his hands in his pockets, smiling obsequiously.
Those people are gone. The journalism class is now completely composed of little stalinists who would proudly work for pravda if they could.
attack these reporters with vitriol and bile
Vitriol is just impossible to clean off of suede
Balko since Trump has been a disappointment. As I've said, hating Trump is a fine thing to do but making him Hitler makes you justified in any lunacy you come up with to defeat him. That's Balko and journalists today.
Someone pointed out that a decade ago journalists putting out left-of-center content found larger audiences on Facebook than did anything center or right, and that kind of started crowding out any work that wasn't that left leaning. They were rewarded for writing things from the left's perspective as though it was the mainstream perspective. And then they graduated from Facebook to corporate media and here we are.
And, yes, you are a conspiracy theorist for noticing alphabet agency slash social media revolving doors.
With everything that's come out regarding Ukraine, it becomes clearer why they went after Trump so vehemently when he asked about Biden's involvement there. It explains all that Russia, Russia nonsense too.
They were rewarded for writing things from the left’s perspective as though it was the mainstream perspective. And then they graduated from Facebook to corporate media and here we are.
What really fucked up modern journalism was the Gawkerization of the industry and the rapid evolution of journalism schools into marxist recruitment centers starting in the early-mid 00s.
"there seems to always be a former FBI/CIA hack standing upwind with his hands in his pockets, smiling obsequiously."
That's because they are untouchable due to their "helpful" former colleagues. They come from a government culture in which they have "absolute immunity" from civil actions and that seems to continue when they leave the agencies. It's nice to have friends in high places.
The reaction from the media is predictable because the media is bought. That's the major story.
https://simulationcommander.substack.com/p/its-no-surprise-medias-ignoring-the
Know what my initial reaction was, and what I would think would be the initial reaction of all journalists?
“LET ME SEE THE FILES, TAIBBI!”
The very little of that I saw was from people who were banned from social media or part of a major news story. Crickets from the ‘media’.
But that’s no surprise at all. The story is about government directing its preferred narrative via controlled media outlets. The media isn’t going to cover it because — you should already know this one! — government is directing its preferred narrative via controlled media outlets!
Only those OTHER altruists are dangerous.
As a private company Twitter has the right to censor but if they do they become a publisher and should lose their Section 230 libel protection.
As a private company Twitter has the right to censor but if they do they become a publisher and should lose their Section 230 libel protection.
I think one could argue they've already been engaged in publishing, especially since that story came out about them being informed about child porn on Twitter but taking no action, while they were focused with pretty laser-like intensity on censoring posts because of their political content. Pretty much the opposite of the Section 230 concept.
The logical premises of this little sockpuppet go a long way toward explaining how the puppet is able to mistake Reason magazine for a confessional for frustrated, impotent, hate-ridden, tear-streaked Trumpanzees.
though the platform's plan was to eventually move toward a policy of informing users about suppression efforts
No it wasn't. It was a PR statement and not an actual plan.
Hindsight?
"Nuh-uh!!! It's all just right-wing conspiracy theories!", the leftard parrot brain.
I honesty think my conspiracy theory queue is literally empty. This was like one the things floating around the bottom that was still being called "conspiracy theory/fox news host fever dream". Everything else has been proven true either in whole or part, but this was kind of the last few bullet items on my list that hadn't been slid into the 'confirmed' column. Kind of fitting for the end of 2022. It lets me start 2023 with a pretty much clean slate.
When everything is a conspiracy, nothing is a conspiracy.
It'll soon get filled up again: 'Did you hear what TRUMP said?!!!!!'
This is tongue in cheek, before someone gets all excited, but at this point I wouldn't be completely surprised if it did turn out the moon landing was faked (again, I don't believe this, is sarcasm).
Given the recent performance of the legacy media, you'd be excused for suspecting the earth *IS* flat (sarc)
I'm starting to have my doubts, and it has nothing to do with the space program or the moon themselves
"Conspiracy theories" are know and henceforth to be known as "spoiler alerts".
https://twitter.com/SethDillon/status/1601212290241826817?t=0Ec-RAiuZP3m3PdNxHSS6A&s=19
When they say @libsoftiktok "indirectly" violated the Rules by "indirectly" inciting violence, what they're really saying is that Libs of TikTok neither violated the Rules nor incited violence.
Try it this way:
As a private company, Twitter has the right to remove posts from blacks and/or Muslims.
Still the same? Why or why not? (5,000 word limit)
Sarc will do so in 10-12 abysmally stupid word choices; see above for the asshole's attempt to equate the Russki collusion bullshit to this.
They have the right to get blamed by the public for doing it. They do however retain the legal right to do it (it’s their property). It is wrong for the LAW to dictate property in this religious way.
The confusion lies in what GUNS (Gov-Guns) ‘tools’ can possibly accomplish. They either accomplish [WE] gang RULES or Individual Liberty and Justice for all. Pulling out one’s 9’s and demanding *entitlement* to other people’s things (what leftards do compulsively) isn’t Justice and certainly isn’t Liberty.
But, can they do it without being charged with "hate crimes" by Merrick Garland? And, can they avoid being found "guilty" by a D.C. jury?
And this, by the way, is the current owner's policy.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593673339826212864
Gee, sure sounds like "shadowbanning" to me, at least according to the loose way that this term is used here.
So imagine you are Elon Musk.
1. You genuinely and sincerely want a 'culture of free speech' at Twitter.
2. At the same time, you can't let the Nazi sewer speech overwhelm the platform, otherwise you will lose advertisers and customers, and be out of business.
So what do you do? You do this "shadowbanning" that both Old Twitter and now New Twitter are doing.
What is the alternative?
This post has been flagged for violating the terms of service.
Ha!
Not shocked jeff is in full defense mode.
I have him muted but I can render a guess as to what he posted. He's given up any pretense at not being a leftist, as has ML. Sarc is pretty damn close.
Sarc is past the line. He still claims he criticizes democrats but can't provide a single post he wasn't badgered into.
Elon's policy is "freedom of speech, not freedom of reach". Meaning he may allow "hate speech" to stay, but won't give the user default tools to amplify it, and won't allow Twitter to make ad revenues off it. You can still search for it and find it on the platform. And he stated that he will actually inform the user on why he's being shadow banned.
"Fuck the police" could be considered as hate speech. But if that was a rap lyric, Elon may decide that it's performative and not an outright incitement, so it may stay. It might not be allowed to trend or make revenue. The user would be notified of these decisions.
The old twitter simply operated behind a curtain to ban or "deboost" whoever they didn't like. Whether the user or tweet violated "hate speech" or TOS did not matter to them. They denied shadow banning EVER took place. And the first twitter file revealed that they banned the Biden story first and then came up with a reason later.
So yes, you're engaging in false equivalency. Elon is promising transparency and fair treatment, which the former regime so openly eschewed. Twitter is obviously never going to be 4chan for practical reasons, we don't need it to be.
Oh good we have an Elon Musk fanboi here.
So Elon Musk's censorship is okay, but Old Twitter's censorship is bad? Got it!
"So Elon Musk’s censorship is okay, but Old Twitter’s censorship is bad? Got it!"
Elon Musk - says he'll be transparent about shadow banning process, will inform users affected by that decision, will allow hate speech to remain but won't amplify it.
Old Twitter - went behind user's back and shadow banned them de to their own political bias regardless of whether they violated TOS, even going far as to disable looking for accounts using search engine.
Chemjeff - Elon and old Twitter are the same thing!
Old Twitter engaged in censorship, and New Twitter is also engaging in censorship. True or False?
Old Twitter's "censorship" was arbitrary, secretive, and based largely on politics of the moderation team. Users (many of them were right leaning an thorn on the side of leftists) were censored despite not violating any TOS. This is what the twitter files have revealed.
New Twitter's "censorship" is merely following up on TOS. Elon resurrected a ton of banned accounts, which is an admission on his part that none of them violated Twitter TOS. They were victims of the moderation team's bias.
Elon can have TOS. Private companies can have standards on dress code, code of conduct, etc. You keep on asking whether they can, and that's not the point. The question is, did old Twitter enforce their TOS fairly and consistently.
I haven't figured out whether you're just pretending not to be able to distinguish between "Nazi sewer speech" and LibsofTikTok or Jay Bhattacharya, or whether you actually don't see any difference.
Here is the point.
Any large platform trying to operate as a successful business is going to engage in some level of content moderation, aka censorship.
This censorship by necessity will have to go beyond simply banning outright illegal speech. It will have to go to into the realm of banning offensive speech that is nonetheless legal. Because the goal is to operate a business, and you can't run a business if customers and advertisers are turned off by the offensive crap at your business.
What constitutes "offensive" is in the eye of the beholder. Old Twitter made its judgment call. Elon Musk is making his judgment call. But there IS going to be a judgment call. It cannot be purely objective or algorithmic.
The people around here screaming about CENSORSHIP!!! are just dishonest virtue signalers. They want to strike a pose as being "pro-free-speech" while intentionally failing to comprehend that censorship is going to be necessary.
And once again no one wants to seriously deal with the fact that censorship is *necessary* for any large business trying to operate a large platform. They would rather just strike a pose and virtue signal about how horrible they think it is.
Can you say that a few more times?
“As a private company, Twitter was obviously within its rights to do this, but users also have the right to be furious.”
Unless it’s part of their service agreement, the fuck it is. Being a private company doesn’t give you the right to violate contracts with your users.
The outrage will be selective. This is a challenge for libertarians. Do you demand Elon Musk continue to be transparent with his leaking of internal emails? How do we know he isn't shadow banning now? How about all media companies and their editorial decision-making?
Of course that demand will not occur. This is selective outrage. We all know FOX and Breitbart and MSNBC and all media companies selectively curate the information for us to see. So that is not really a problem for the right. They are mad because what? They can't "flood the zone with sh&T?" Because that's what this is. They are also mad that someone on the left is as good at propaganda as they are.
Maybe the media will figure out that Twitter is not the only information source and that most people do not really get their news from Facebook. They get their news from news aggregators that are full of crap from right-wing bot dumps pretending to be journalism. Twitter is just a machine for cranking out soundbites that give journalists a cheap excuse for meeting a deadline and sowing division.
They are mad because what? They can’t “flood the zone with sh&T?” Because that’s what this is.
Yeah, that's what this has all been about. Dr. Jay Battacharya flooding the zone with Nazi messaging and KKK racism.
You just keep pretending that everything that was banned, shadowbanned or de-ranked was just Nazis being all Heil Hitler and burning crosses and stuff.
It has been about Dr. Jay, AND about abhorrent Twitter users like (fictional) @ILoveHitler1488.
I keep pointing this out, but no one here is interested in addressing REALITY. The reality is, there is no example of a totally free speech platform run as a successful large-scale business. Every tech platform censors to one degree or another. EVEN REASON censors, albeit very little. And the reason is simple. It is fundamentally not because of ideological bias. It is because of business. You can't let the @ILoveHitler1488's run loose otherwise your entire platform becomes a Nazi gathering ground and your entire company image becomes one of "a platform for Nazis". You lose customers and advertisers and you are run out of business. Even Elon Musk is shadowbanning *right now*.
Sure it's possible to have small-scale, tiny free speech platforms. Like if you and your buddies got together and were totally uninhibited in your speech and someone told an edgy joke and no one was offended because you were all friends. But the moment you start scaling that up to a large enterprise, then some sort of content moderation becomes necessary if you want the business to survive.
So what are you going to do? What is your solution for having a free speech platform, run as a successful large-scale business, that doesn't censor or shadowban?
Censorship is fine with jeff because there is no perfect platform. Especially if it targets the people he dislikes.
The trolling technique used to demand a perfect solution as a defense to admitting something is bad is duly noted.
Jesse, you too are also in favor of censorship, you're just too cowardly to admit it.
And I'm not asking for a perfect platform. I'm asking for your preferred solution, not just mindless bitching.
Are you about to make the child porn argument again? Because I’d really appreciate you making the child porn argument again. Thanks in advance.
Cite? I have been against censorship such as this morning. I dont give a fick what people say.
Just because you're pro censorship doesn't mean others are.
Find one instance of me asking for it.
Then you think the possession of child porn should be legal? I don't. What kind of sicko are you?
Haha! Awesome.
Do you think it should be legal? If not, then you are in favor of censorship.
I find it hard to believe that you’re too stupid to see the difference between child porn and speech, and must conclude this is you being a dishonest piece of shit.
Images are a type of speech.
Did you think the First Amendment literally only meant "the spoken word"?
You know that "free speech" includes not just the literal spoken word.
If you are in favor of making possession of child porn illegal, then you are in favor of censorship.
It is a type of censorship that I favor. It is ALSO a type of censorship that YOU favor. But you are too dishonest to admit it. You want to have it both ways: to strike a pose of being "against censorship" while you support censorship, calling it something else.
I stand corrected. You are that stupid.
What about this guy? He is on your tribe. Is he a "groomer"?
https://reason.com/2022/12/09/this-principal-investigated-a-sexting-incident-so-the-police-charged-him-with-possessing-child-porn/?comments=true#comment-9829803
How did I know you would go straight to child porn.
1a speech has never covered illegal acts. From threats to production of child porn.
You truly are a pedophile.
Posted at 2:46:
And I’m not asking for a perfect platform.
And just below at 2:48:
Give us your solution for how to run a pure free speech platform as a viable large-scale business enterprise. Go ahead, I’ll wait.
The fat fuck can't even maintain a consistent narrative over two minutes.
I don’t call him Lying Jeffy for nothing.
Give us your solution for how to run a pure free speech platform as a viable large-scale business enterprise. Go ahead, I'll wait.
This isn't any more of a serious question than someone claiming that real marxism has never been tried. It's a fallacious position and should be rejected out of hand.
It doesn't exist. THAT IS MY POINT. Bitching about censorship is just bitching. Every real large-scale platform is going to have censorship.
This is stupidly wrong. It's trivial to devise and enforce viewpoint neutral rules, we know this because government is required to do so. For many decades business and other institutions also pursued this goal. But one by one leftists corrupted all of these institutions setting themselves up as the enforcers. Then they trained their acolytes on "magic words", the series of phrases which enable the enforces to take severe action. These include "unsafe" and "transphobic". The advantage of collusion between the enforcers and complainants is that the process presumes verification of these claims, but because the process is purely a subterfuge this never occurs. So the absurd mischaracterizations of "unsafe" are simply treated as fact.
Viewpoint neutral rules are entirely possible, and losing the ability to discriminate against those he hates is what scares Jeffey and the left. So he claims any deviation from 100% free speech is "censorship" and frames all censorship as the same. A reasonable person would recognize viewpoint neutral rules are censorship but not nearly the same as politically biased censorship.
Then that means your lefty boos need to be censored as much as possible.
Nirvana fallacy is still a fallacy even after you use it again after I call you out on it.
A pure free speech platform cannot exist at large scales. Good, we both agree on that.
Therefore, your cries about CENSORSHIP!!!! are just dishonest posturing.
That's my point.
It’s a stupid, dishonest, point.
Yes, we know that you value honesty so much that you run cover for your dishonest Team Red tribalists.
Cite?
Cute strawman. Do you carry him every where you go?
Reason already has the best solution I care to bother with.
I don't think many people are complaining about censoring real no-shit neo-Nazis. But there are very few of them plus some shit head kids who think it's funny to do for laughs. The problem is Twitter misrepresenting what it does and lying about it. If Twitter had been up front about it and said "our mission is to get Democrats elected", then fine. But they claimed to be a neutral communication platform that wouldn't censor for purely partisan or political reasons.
Correct answer to vile speech is more speech. You can always mute someone you dont like. Why force your choice on others?
If Twitter had been up front about it and said “our mission is to get Democrats elected”, then fine.
This is bullshit and you know it.
They made rules like "no deadnaming" that right-wingers would break all the time, and get banned, because they don't think deadnaming is even a thing. That is not "getting Democrats elected". That is right-wingers being assholes, and then retreating to a victimhood narrative when they face the consequences of their assholery.
As usual, it is right-wingers upset that they are not the ones who get to set the rules all the time.
And BY THE WAY, Twitter banned plenty of left-wingers too. But you will not find those in the Bari Weiss twitter thread.
"I don’t think many people are complaining about censoring real no-shit neo-Nazis."
I will.
"Hate" speech and bigots shouldn't be censored, but at least if you're going to censor real no-shit neo-nazis you need to censor CRT proponents as well...
“Hate” speech and bigots shouldn’t be censored
because then Nardz wouldn't have any platform at all
Thank you. I'm also willing to complain. Back in the day even the ACLU was willing to complain. In the 70s I was told that National Socialism was the worst idea ever. Being that I'm a contrarian asshole I picked up a copy of Mein Kampf and attempted to wade through it. Incredibly nobody tried to stop me. In fact anybody with five bucks could walk into any bookstore and immerse themselves in hate speech. Go figure. Pretty much decided the theory probably wasn't the best way to manage an economy. You can say what you want about it, but at least it's an ethos. Just not a successful one. Picked up a copy of Marx's manifesto. never finished it but pretty much reached the same conclusion. Checked out this chick Ayn Rand. Now these were actual novels with good guys and bad guys and femme fatales. My mother was a self described communist so I had a hard time reconciling Rand's heroes with the egalitarian state envisioned by the family matriarch. But I kinda liked those guys. In the end there were always competing ideas and people were free to consider the pros and cons. Neo Nazis have been selling their brand for a very long time but haven't made many sales. I say let them have at it.
Me and my very Jewish best friend once spent an hour on the phone reading random passages out of Mein Kampf. It's so poorly written its objectively hilarious.
Ideas in and of themselves aren't a problem.
It's the groupthink, demanded conformity, obedience, and totalitarian self-righteousness that creates atrocities. It's the characters like chemjeff and the rest of the leftist drones who give monsters the necessary support.
I’m against censoring no shit neo Nazis.
Even in your own house?
There isn’t any Nazis in my house.
You are against censoring, in your own house, a Nazi?
How about unwanted guests? Are you opposed to censoring them in your house?
Depends--do you lefty boos support it, or not?
Jeff has to appeal to pedantry here because this makes his lefty boos look bad.
The cope is strong.
"The reality is, there is no example of a totally free speech platform run as a successful large-scale business. Every tech platform censors to one degree or another."
And again, you miss the point entirely. Private companies can have TOS. The question here is whether enforcement was fair, consistent, and transparent. Twitter struck out on all three.
Twitter banned the hunter laptop story first and rationalized it by saying it violated "hacked material" policy. But then they apparently let hacked info on freedom convoy protesters circulate on their platform. Users say their account for restricted for saying things like "Kyle Rittenhouse is innocent" which cannot be considered as anything remotely hateful.
You realize that if I went into a restaurant fully clothed, they can't throw me out for not wearing a T shirt? But that's what Twitter did. Look at the amount of banned accounts Elon reactivated. By his own admission, Twitter TOS barely changed. The mod team from the old regime basically punished users on their personal whim, not for breaking company policy.
You realize that if I went into a restaurant fully clothed, they can’t throw me out for not wearing a T shirt?
Why not?
"Why not?
OK Chemjeff, if every Mcdonalds in your area throws you out for not wearing shoes and Tshirt even though you are, you can smile like an idiot and say "oh well they're private company". A big winner is you, chemjeff!!!!
(Rolls eyes)
No one is saying that it would be a good idea. But it is *their* property. Why not?
"But it is *their* property. Why not?"
That's against the law, dude. Public accommodation laws. The constitution.
If I ever enter a Mcdonald fully clothed and management threw me out of not wearing shoes, every single patron who got service inside the establishment is a witness in my discrimination lawsuit.
If I entered with a plain white shirt and the manager said "Your shirt has hate symbols in it, get out", and the footage of that went viral, I could sue the place for defamation. This is what we call lying.
One of the changes musk is making is to let users see what restrictions they are under and appeal, instead of doing it blindly in the shadows.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh! That was one pissy snit.
Of course it's selective.
Note that every single one of Bari Weiss' examples were of right-wingers being "shadow-banned". Where were the examples of left-wingers being silenced? Hmm?
Altruists have this knack for sniffing out heretical altruists that only differ from themselves 3 or 4 places to the right of the decimal point. It's eerily disgusting.
chemfat's trying to demand that Weiss prove a negative, I see.
The doctor isn't a right winger you dishonest shit.
"Where were the examples of left-wingers being silenced? Hmm?"
LOL, this guy. The point of everything just sailed right over his head. Unbelievable.
I will even give him one. Berenson. Who was banned by government pressuring Twitter. Jeff is fine with this.
"Where were the examples of left-wingers being silenced? Hmm?"
JFC
Going with the not real journalism, especially if they're from the right, defense I see.
I wouldn't know. Twits and Faecepukes evidently include nobody able to define government, understand a right, read a platform or grasp how spoiler votes leverage change in the platforms of competing parties and the laws those platforms foist on us at gunpoint. The amount of time I allocate to them is proportional to that zero number.
TL;DR: Hos mad.
"The outrage will be selective. This is a challenge for libertarians. Do you demand Elon Musk continue to be transparent with his leaking of internal emails?..."
HERACLITUS lefty bullshit won't be 'selective'.
Hint, lefty pile of shit, Musk owns the company, and he owns the "internal" emails.
Fuck off and die.
The left is fine and dandy with the suppression of truth and opposing or inconvenient voices.
And, it only begins there.
Meanwhile the Rico Soaves of the world stand ready to tell you it is really no biggie and that there are other 'real' stories deserving of more attention.
Elon Musk has said that his policy will be "freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach". Will that be different from the shadowbanning he revealed here? He claims to be a free speech absolutist, but banned Kanye for an antisemitic post which while offensive fell far short of promoting violence. I hope he walks the walk instead of just talking the talk. Failing that, I hope his content moderation policy is transparent and consistent.
meant to post this as a top level comment
At this point we're all just waiting for the shooting to start.
The misleading and dangerous trope that "private companies" can do what they want is played out, everyone in America knows that is complete bullshit.
I don't know anyone serious who says that private companies "can do whatever they want" and most libertarians believe that corporate shareholders should be liable for the same damages that private persons could be held liable for without legal corporate liability limitations. Most libertarians don't even believe that corporations or commercial companies should be licensed or regulated in the first place. I can't even imagine someone who believes that companies should be allowed to violate criminal laws. So maybe you should be a bit more specific about what harm companies do to society by "doing whatever they want."
"...most libertarians believe that corporate shareholders should be liable for the same damages that private persons could be held liable for without legal corporate liability limitations."
Gonna need a cite for that claim.
So in Twitter's case it's NOT the algorithm, it's hand on back-end moderation of user content.
It is at FB, too. They say it's the algorithm, but they have a complex system of white and black lists modifying the output of that algorithm, and teaching it what it's really supposed to be doing.
Likewise for Google.
All the large left-wing platforms do this.
The algorithm thing, being nothing more than a euphemism for a human authored instruction set, is a total red herrng.
Algorithm or no algorithm the suppression of speech was and will always be people all the way down.
Speaking of Twitter:
https://twitter.com/ENBrown/status/1601256561086988289
ENB claiming to be more a representative of libertarian thought than the comments section. Man, thats great, I needed a good laugh.
The only thing she represents is leaning so far into 'left libertarianism' she is going to land in a chair at the daily beast. And sammiches.
Alright, which one of you is Amy Alkon?
My favorite tweet of hers was the one where she imitated the Smug Athist wojack and claimed that Christians shouldn't be happy about Soleimani getting killed because Christians should be all about peace and non-violence.
Has she praised dark brandon? If so it explains why jeff follows her.
She probably thought that George Washington wasn't playing fair when he crossed the Delaware on Christmas and attacked the Hessians at Trenton the next morning.
LOL I guess my comment on her insipid "Canceling is Funsies" article hit home.
I understand her frustration at getting slagged in the comments all the time. I don't indulge in it myself because the commentariat does fine finding topics of discussion on our own, and at least the stuff she posts is a good jump-off for further engagement.
But she's definitely had some nuclear-level takes in her time here, and that was one of them.
Reason must be that rare online publication in which the active readership totally avoids the comment section, allowing the haters to take over.
This is strange, since at places like Breitbart, someone like John Nolte going after woke Disney might get around 2,000 comments singing Hallelujah. But Breitbart uses Disqus, you say. The Daily Wire doesn't use disqus and requires registration to comment, and their comment section is full of like minded center right sentiment.
they are also using the very standard, daily defense lefties use:
"Its just online trolls!"
Seriously, just look at ANY woke hollywood project they love. The second there is a whiff of criticism its "REVIEW BOMBING!" and "TROLL INCELS!"
They think the baseline is that everyone sings their praises. So when they have to step into the free market of ideas they have to blame "the trolls!"
So why are you here? Seriously, if Reason is such a terrible publication in your view, why bother? It is like commenting at MSNBC or Salon, right?
Why do movie fans bother to express anger and dismay at the decline of certain franchises, sometimes so incessantly? Why don't they just stop watching them? Because they're passionate about the subjects they discuss.
Reason's muddled coverage of big tech perfectly illustrates why commentators are frustrated with them. They spent years dismissing conservative outcry over tech bias as whining. While right leaning sites discussed new evidence and trends that seemed to prove their point, Reason paid them little attention. Why? From I could see, they engaged in a bit of tribalism of their own. They detest populists, and populists are often the loudest voice against big tech. On a subconscious level, they didn't want someone like Hawley to be proven right.
ENB is apparently a bit salty that she is not getting her arse kissed here in the comments, and that people might be put off by lazily researched, poorly reasoned articles. Most of that Twitter thread is an extended ad hominem attack on the denizens of the comments section. I realize Twitter is not a place for deep nuanced thought, but this is rather shabby, and full of projection.
hahaha! Fucking Sloopy commented!! miss that dude 🙁
Reason magazine has hosted comments and letters since before Ronald Ray-Gun threatened pregnant women. But Gary's 4 million votes drew the boiling wrath of every bigot who hates women, Jews, Blacks, music, plant leaves, Evolution and individualism. Allowing individual subscribers to Mute Losers mooted and derailed collectivized ordure-flinging without blocking anyone with anything intelligent to say.
If I understand your weird gibberish well enough, I think I agree. Let people mute those they find offensive, only delete actual illegal posts, and get on with life.
Zeb is the translator for Libertariantranslator.
Thank god he stepped up to the plate. It all makes sense now.
I think you mean “the used” and not users. People that Tweet are not Twitter users, they’re what’s for sale. Twitter users are government and corporations that are in the midst of a vast campaign to shift culture in their image.
"all in secret, without informing users"
Um, isn't that what the "shadow" in "shadow ban" MEANS?
See above.
Conservatives: They're disappearing people!
Censorship Advocates: Don't be ridiculous! They weren't [scare quotes]disappearing[/scare quotes] anyone they were *checks notes* "chopping up their bodies" and, uh, *flips pages* "distributing the pieces among a number of shallow graves".
The accusatory lingo is 'shadowban', but when you look at what Twitter was doing they literally called it "do not amplify", "blacklist", and "viewpoint filtering" among themselves.
This story is especially hilarious given the media hysteria over what Musk might do before an election: (video in link)
https://simulationcommander.substack.com/p/the-twitter-files-part-2-hits-the
Even a private company is not "within its rights" to shadow ban if it specifically informs its customers that they do NOT shadow ban! Every time I have joined a new platform, I have been required to sign that I have read that company's policies and that I agree to the terms - sometimes periodically afterwards from time to time when the company updates the terms of use. So, as a private company they may not be violating my Constitutional rights to free speech by shadow banning, but if they violate their own expressly documented terms of use agreement with their customers they may still be violating some law somewhere.
In addition their head of legal affairs lied under oath to congress. Perjury is a crime.
There is nothing about shadow banning in Twitter’s ToS.
Twitter’s censorship program has always been explicitly left wing and highly politicized. They announced their community standards board in response to Gamergate and hired the left wing activist who inserted herself into GG for self promotion, Anita Sarkissian. Because they hired explicitly left wing activists they adopted the far left’s tendentious definitions and standards such as that exposure to speech left wingers disagree with makes them unsafe. Tellingly this only applies to left wingers.
We can’t pretend Twitter just naturally evolved into this. They explicitly chose a political censorship program. The left benefits from unbalanced politicization because they’ve normalized activism in their acolytes personal lives, which is the basis for the manatee the personal is political. The resulting effect is that leftists pursue politics at all times while others mostly think it is inappropriate but do nothing. Because of this even if the staff started 50-50 in a few years the left completely dominates. This is the lesson of the lefts march through our institutions. So Twitter ends up with hundreds of left wing activist employees who sincerely believe anything which contradicts the left wing narrative should be suppressed and is willing to act to make that happen.
We can’t pretend Twitter just naturally evolved into this. They explicitly chose a political censorship program.
Yeah, hiring Sarkissian was a deliberate effort to implement a left-wing censorship regime. It took a while to kick off, but they started it up when they nuked a bunch of alt-right accounts about a week or so after Trump won the 2016 election, because a lot of those accounts had been able to drive Twitter trends.
Bari Weiss Twitter Files Reveal Systematic 'Blacklisting' of Truthful Content in Favor of Government Lies
https://twitter.com/elizableu/status/1601049933078880256?t=92UV4_oSgLAajtzTsJgQYw&s=19
Twitter prioritized the censorship of non-illegal speech over the removal of child sexual abuse material at scale.
Let that sink in.
All of this was going on as minor survivors begged the platform to remove their child sexual abuse material.
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1601352083617505281?t=zO7mkV9mXidShAbeLXNHKw&s=19
1. THREAD: The Twitter Files
THE REMOVAL OF DONALD TRUMP
Part One: October 2020-January 6th
[Thread]
So, Elon Musk is sharing confidential internal documents only with a few select reporters.
Would this be considered "collusion"?
What are you so afraid of Jeffy? Afraid you might show up on there as well?
Dang Jeffy. That's a pretty wild take. Stay off the chems and pay attention. Musk owns the damn company! There are HIS files!
Well, maybe they are 'classified', right, steaming-pile of lefty shit jeffy?
Twitter files - part III. Musk is doing this one.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1601352083617505281.html
sarc, white mike, jeffy, turd, herc and the rest will be with you in just a bit, as soon as they search Vox, CNN and other such unbiased sources for the talking points which apply here.
Jeffy's already been here. My best guess is that he either worked for Twitter at that time or is closely associated with Twitter and the bans/shadow bans. He's way too sensitive on the topic.
All left wingers are super touchy over ensuring the rules favor them because they know they can't win the debate with balanced rules and analysis. He didn't have to work there to be unreasonable sensitive, their media control is being threatened and they can't help but react.
Jeff is back to if you're against child porn you're pro censorship. Ignore it is distribution of a crime with a victim. He can't understand allowing someone to advocate for child porn is one thing while pushing child porn is another.
My guess his issue with Musk is going after child porn more than anything.
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https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1601370231620136962?t=GT0fSYHtq4-LyJdrEg2mjA&s=19
34. In the docs, execs often expand criteria to subjective issues like intent (yes, a video is authentic, but why was it shown?), orientation (was a banned tweet shown to condemn, or support?), or reception (did a joke cause “confusion”?). This reflex will become key in J6.
The thing though is that they only extend the criteria in this way for conservative things and the occasional leftist who strays off the reservation.
Otherwise its 'a joke is a joke and you can't fact check a joke'.
If shadow banning is defined as secretly making a user’s content utterly undiscoverable, even by visiting his own page, then it’s technically true that there is no shadow banning. (
Uh, bro, that’s not shadowbanning – that’s just banning.
Of course they were - in secret. Because that's how you do it. Use an extremely restrictive definition (restrictive to the point that its now describing something completely different) while pretending to be talking about the same thing everyone else is - and you just let them get away with it.
Wow. Just wow, Soave. You have to get halfway down the article before you see the contortions Soave put himself through to be able to include the ‘to be sure’ in the subhead. Sad.
https://twitter.com/LibertyLockPod/status/1601399473837834240?t=VAxaKtoKX9gAbcirOkzieQ&s=19
Extrapolate the fuckery within Twitter to every other big tech platform, then extend it to every corporate news outlet, then extend is to Hollywood, then every college kid gets the same propaganda reinforced at school
Add in mail-in ballots
It's incredible Republicans ever win
It’s incredible Republicans ever win
They will be permitted to win occasionally as long as the illusion that there are two parties serves the interests of the power elite.
Yes. This is the actual story here.
Reason is bottling this up as a Twitter issue because otherwise they'd have to address that they are also part of it. It's such a shame that Reason decided to be just another left-wing elite establishment propaganda outlet
Twitter drop 3.
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1601352083617505281
Twitter was actually suppressing Conservative tweets prior to the 2020 election.
"10. As the election approached, senior executives – perhaps under pressure from federal agencies, with whom they met more as time progressed – increasingly struggled with rules, and began to speak of “vios” as pretexts to do what they’d likely have done anyway."
Twitter had a right to do it.
They lied about doing it.
Conservatives absolutely have a right to be pissed off.
All the asshole commenters who insisted that conservatives were paranoid conspiracy theorists should hang their heads in shame.
They will do no such thing because they have zero shame.
Instead they will hem and haw. "Perhaps there was government intervention." (Note that this will be a retreat from the misquoting of Taibbi, insisting that he denied government involvement.)
Or they will insist that this was the same as some random Russians buying a few thousand ads.
This is egregious manipulation from a "respected" 3rd party. It was unethical. They should be punished for it by the market. But because certain people liked the outcome, they will insist that nothing bad really happened. This will make the likelihood of government intervention more likely, not less.
If lefties were smart, they would be throwing the old Twitter administration under the bus. They would say "See the private market works!" (and it did here). Instead, they will deny that anything was wrong, and ensure that no one ever trusts their lying pie holes again.
Seriously, how flagrant can you get? These people thought they could get away with absurdly unethical actions, because they were the rich elite. The only thing they didn't count on was another rich elite who grew up in a country of malfeasance where the attempt at healing began with disclosing EVERYTHING.
Yoel Roth
Ehh, it happens. I'm a big believer in calendar transparency. But I reached a certain point where my meetings became...very interesting...to people and there weren't meeting names generic enough to cover [...] DEFINITELY NOT meeting with the FBI I SWEAR.
"...DEFINITELY NOT meeting with the FBI I SWEAR."
Ha, ha. Very funny. Do not pass Go; go to jail.
They were throttling Trump long before 1/6 gave them the official excuse to kick him off the platform!
They were looking for an excuse the whole time. However, the call for peace seems to have caught them off guard.
Reading the thread it's interesting to note the dishonesty of all the left wingers claiming the censorship is no big deal. The left treated "misinformation" like it was the end of the republic. But now that their censorship plan is uncovered we're supposed to pretend it doesn't matter?
Absurd!
1) "It's a right-wing conspiracy theory!"
------------------------------------------------
2) "It hasn't been proven!"
------------------------------------------------
3) "It really doesn't matter; ignore it!" <- We are here.
Let's be clear; there is no way either Musk or Trump are 'agreeable' people, but Trump's policies and actions made him the most libertarian POTUS we had in the last 100 years. I care about results, TDS-addled shit-piles Sullum, Tuccille, Brandyshit, ENB and the rest of you assholes, and I can only hope that Musk has and is contributing to giving the swamp dwellers a reason to be concerned about, oh, making a living. Yes, you, you steaming piles of shit.
Fuck each and every one of you with a running, rusty chainsaw! Every one of you assholes owns droolin' Joe and the grief we now have. Fuck off and die.
----------------------------------------------------
4) "It's old news!"
+10000 I was waiting for 'the list' on this. Well done 🙂
+1. Just remember, there’s one more on the list:
5) “Fuck you, racist.”
Really less interested in the list than the steaming piles of TDS-addled shits who gave us what we now have and are washing their hands of it:
'Ya know, he's really not a likable guy'. Yeah, asshole, we know, as an adolescent whiner, you're terrified of a POTUS who says things which make you uncomfortable, and let's focus on the TDS-addled asshole Tuccille.
Hey, steaming pile of shit, care to tell us where Trump touched you, or simply admit to TDS-addled idiocy?
Or, get fucked with the running, rusty chainsaw, scumbag?
BTW, anybody know how to contact Tuccille directly to inquire regarding his TDS-addled idiocy and responsibility for what we have now?
Hey, Tuccille, you own this, steaming pile of shit!
Not sure. I know Robby's on Twitter for a DM, but not too sure about Tuccille.
No, there won't. We've lost. Welcome to Hell.
Yep. Nothing will ever be done and no one will ever be held accountable.
Oh people will be held accountable alright. Those that exposed Twitter and the government officials collusion to suppress information will certainly be held accountable. I wonder how many Twitter employees (former or current) that the FBI fear might be disclosing information, are under investigation right at this moment. Probably several. Elon Musk, Matt Tabbi and Bari Weiss probably all need to make sure their Wills are up-to-date. And, I hope Elon Musk also stays close to his security and has his vehicles checked on a regular basis. I've heard those electric vehicles have a tendency to
spontaneously combust.
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