Republicans Contemplate a Post-Trump World
With his luster dimmed, former President Donald Trump is no longer the unchallenged party leader.

Surprising exactly nobody, former President Donald Trump this week revealed that he'll seek to return to the White House in 2024. While anticipated, the announcement was somewhat muted given the underwhelming midterm performance of Republicans who gained no ground in the Senate and barely took the House despite high inflation and the unpopularity of Democratic President Joe Biden.
What must have been especially painful for Trump was that GOP candidates most closely aligned with him performed the worst, while many who campaigned on policies and achievements and distanced themselves from the businessman-turned-celebrity-turned-politician made significant gains. Trump's star seems to be waning as the Republican Party starts to move on.
Chief among those charting their own course is Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis. From a libertarian perspective, DeSantis is a mixed bag, mixing heavy-handed culture war with support for tax cuts and resistance to public-health authoritarianism. But whatever his ambiguous appeal to advocates of freedom, the combination is proving popular among Floridians and Republicans alike. Voters in his state handed him a huge win over his Democratic rival, while the GOP faithful eye him as a new standard-bearer for their party.
"More Republicans and Republican-leaning Independents now say they'd prefer DeSantis (42 percent) as their 2024 presidential nominee over Trump than say they'd prefer Trump to DeSantis (35 percent)," YouGov America reported of polling conducted in the wake of the midterm election. "That's a reversal from nearly a month ago, when—according to a Yahoo News/YouGov poll of U.S. adults—just 35 percent preferred DeSantis and 45 percent said they preferred Trump."
YouGov isn't alone. Post-midterm polling for the conservative Club for Growth by WPA Intelligence finds DeSantis leading Trump among likely Republican caucus and primary voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, Florida, and Georgia. In all cases DeSantis leads by double-digit percentages, with support growing since earlier polling in August, while Trump's numbers decline.
Not everybody gives DeSantis the edge; a poll released this week by Politico/Morning Consult put Trump at 47 percent to 33 percent for Florida's governor. But "while Trump's standing has not dropped significantly since pre-election (he stood at 48 percent in the most recent Morning Consult poll), DeSantis' star has risen," notes Politico's Meridith McGraw and Christopher Cadelago. "The Florida governor was at 26 percent in that last poll."
And while DeSantis is the most-discussed alternative to Trump among Republicans, he's not entirely alone. Pre-midterm polling by South Carolina's Winthrop University put that state's former governor Nikki Haley at 37 percent against Trump's 45 percent support.
"Haley has a strong showing against the former president, who is popular within his party," commented Winthrop Poll Director, Dr. Scott Huffmon. "Since this was conducted before the disappointing midterm results, for which many Republicans blame Trump, her star may have risen even further."
By no means have Republicans broken up with Donald Trump, but they're no longer exclusive with him as his attraction fades for the party faithful.
"Republicans in the United States continue to have generally positive views of Donald Trump, but the share expressing warm feelings toward the former president in Pew Research Center surveys had fallen off by the run up to this month's midterm elections," Pew noted this week. Sixty percent of Republicans reported feeling "warmly" towards the former president in October, down from 67 percent in July 2021 and 70 percent in April 2020.
It's unlikely that the midterms added any luster to the former president's image, especially with prominent Republicans fingering Trump as the culprit for the GOP's poor performance.
"It's basically the third election in a row that Donald Trump has cost us the race, and it's like, three strikes, you're out," Maryland's term-limited GOP Gov. Larry Hogan, who will be succeeded by a Democrat, commented.
"The voters have spoken and they have said that they want a different leader," Virginia's Republican Lt. Gov. Winsome Sears told Fox Business. "And a true leader understands when they have become a liability. A true leader understands that it's time to step off the stage."
"It would be a bad mistake for the Republicans to have Donald Trump as their nominee in 2024," agreed retiring Rep. Mo Brooks (R-Ala.), once a strong supporter of the former president's fantasies of a stolen 2020 election.
None of this means that Donald Trump won't be the presidential nominee of the Republican Party in 2024. Fading support isn't the same as no support. By any measure, the former president is still a leading contender for the party's nod in the next election. He still has a sizeable fan base and he demonstrated in 2016 that counting him out is dangerous.
What has changed, though, is that Trump is no longer the unchallenged leader of the Republican Party. The rejection by voters of many of his endorsed candidates demonstrated his vulnerability and leaves an opening for challengers who don't feel obligated to seek his favor or defer to his style of politics. When Trump campaigns for the nomination, he'll have rivals with their own brands and different visions.
What those visions will be is anybody's guess. The old GOP deference, however nominal it was, to free markets and limited government blew up when Trump was elected. He champions trade protectionism and the execution of drug dealers, along with lower taxes and reduced regulation. Current chief rival Ron DeSantis offers some elements of economic liberty along with socially conservative warfare against woke school boards and corporations. Other contenders for the nomination will offer competing programs, with a reshaped political party as the prize for the victor.
But there will be new leaders with rebooted visions for both major political parties, one way or the other, even if only because the march of time gets its own vote. Donald Trump was born in 1946 and will be 78 years old the day voters cast ballots in 2024. President Joe Biden, who hints he'll run for re-election, is four years older. Neither is exactly the picture of good health. Assuming a (please spare us) Trump-Biden rematch, there's a real chance the debates will need to be held via Ouija board.
So, a post-Trump GOP is coming, and Republicans have to decide what that will mean.
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Tuccille fantasizes about a Post-Trump World.
He's running again JD, so sorry that this is happening to you.
Of course he won't be running, he'll be in jail. Why this total denial about the upcoming treason indictment? He staged a coup. A shitty, useless, incompetent coup, but a coup nonetheless. Trump will have to 'make a deal' to avoid the electric chair, and you can be sure he will, because he's a coward.
Hey! Stop y’all’s fighting!
HERE is an uplifting message that may help out!
A Trumpsmas Message of Hope, Peace, and Joy
In these times of divisive troubles, we all need a little unifying Lift, yes? So I present to you, a Timeless, Empowering Story of Trumpsmas Joy!
And it came to pass, that The Lord Trump descended from the penthouse of The Trump Hotel at Mar-a-Lago. He ascended the flag-draped speaker’s podium, and had an acolyte apply some touch-up bronzer. He ascended the Mount of Olives, and of Pineapples, and of Anchovies. Then He spake unto the assembled mass of 5 million:
“I come unto ye to bring messages of Joy and Peace! Do NOT be confused by the lamestream media, nor by the Demon-craps, who speak of many strange wonders! They speak of many YUUGE lies, and of half-truths! Some say that I am the Son of God! Some say that I am the Son of Man! Some say that I am the Great White Father! Or the Great Pumpkin! Or the Great Whitish-Orangish Pumpkin-Father! But I am none of those things! I come to be before you, as an Humble Man, with MUCH bigness to my humbleness… You may simply call me the Chosen One! Even the lamestream media knows this! https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-49429661 The American voters, the REAL, legitimate voters… The NON-Demon-rat ones, have overwhelmingly chosen MEEE! THAT is why I am the Chosen One!”
He paused, momentarily, there on the top of the Mount of Olives, and of Pineapples, and of Anchovies, as thunderous applause deafened everyone for miles around. He tried to wave down the crowd, for silence. But in their jubilation, the crowd spontaneously broke out into a chant! “Dominos Pizza-Pie REEEquiem, Dominos Pizza-Pie REEEquiem, Dominos Pizza-Pie REEEquiem”, they chanted, over and over, and yet over, again! Sensing their spiritual and bodily hungers, The Lord Trump discreetly ordered a single, solitary pizza and a basket full of anchovies, which arrived nearly instantly. Then The Lord Trump broke off pieces of pizza, and dished out the anchovies, which somehow managed to feed the crowd of five million!
With their hunger now sated, The Lord Trump was finally able to calm the masses, and silence their cheering, so that He could, once again, be heard. The Lord Trump spake once again, saying unto them, “Behold, now begins a time of troubles! The Dark Lord has bin bidin’ his time, which has now come! I will be swallowed up by the Penthouse of The Trump Hotel at Mar-a-Lago, for 4 years of dark nights and troubled days, and I know, you will miss Me terribly! But then the Boulder of Voter Fraud will mysteriously be shoved aside, and I will emerge once more! Trust bigly in Me, but bigly JUST in Me!!!”
The Lord Trump waited for a long time, for the applause to die down, and then continued, “While I am gone, the Faithful shall honor Me on the last Thursday of each November, giving Thanks that I have shown Good Americans The Truth and The Way. You shall slay the Great Pumpkin, and eat of the Pumpkin Pie, saying, ‘This is the Body of The Lord Trump. Eat it with Joy and Gladness’. Then ye shall drink of the cranberry juice, saying. ‘This is the Blood of The Lord Trump. Drink it with Anticipation of the Defeat of the Forces of Evil, and of the Demon-rats’. This, do in honor of MEEE!”
The applause was overwhelming and unstoppable, so The Lord Trump escaped in His Helicopter, to the Penthouse of The Trump Hotel at Mar-a-Lago, leaving the crowd to festering in the gathering stormy weather. There were no busses provided for the crowds, but that was OK by them, for they were full of Great Trumpsmas Joy!
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I got a rock.
Is that a rock in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
also why the fuck can't I watch Happy Thanksgiving Charlie Brown without paying Paramount? they rob me of the Woodstock Song
I’ve got it on VHS. That’s right, I still have one of those VCR/DVD combos.
And Snoopy fighting with the lawn chair is epic.
#metoo. and a ton of 8-hour tapes w/Simpsons, SeaLab, SpaceGhost, and everything else I can't remember ... we'd throw them in when we dropped
and yes Snoopy & the Chair make me roflol every time.
I gotta ask; did psychedelics help your conversion to libertarianism? If you consider yourself to be one, that is. I honestly don't think I ever would have found my way without doing tons of acid at a young age. And punk rock.
To wrap a piece of string around?
Butt don't forget, Spock beats Lizard!
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+1 TMBG
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Are you Dee Snyder? Oh wait…That’s “I Wanna Rock.” 😉
Not even trying to hide your socks shrike.
Enjoy the $0.50.
BTW, You need to get a better schtick.
OBL's successor, he's not.
Well, he is as TDS-addled as Sandra turns out to be, so there's that.
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Sad!
A bunch of unarmed yahoos is not an insurrection. It's not even an erection. It's just limp and sad.
"Davedave
Of course he won’t be running, he’ll be in jail."
For what JoeFridayJoeFriday?
If January 6th FBI op was a coup, then what the fuck was Pelosi's attempt to incite a military coup earlier that day?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/us/politics/trump-impeachment-pelosi.html
"Ms. Pelosi said she had spoken with Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, about “preventing an unstable president from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch codes...
A spokesman for General Milley, Col. Dave Butler, confirmed that the two had spoken...
...Defense Department officials have privately expressed anger that political leaders seemed to be trying to get the Pentagon to do the work of Congress...
Mr. Trump, they noted, is still the commander in chief, and unless he is removed, the military is bound to follow his lawful orders. While military officials can refuse to carry out orders they view as illegal, they cannot proactively remove the president from the chain of command. That would be a military coup...”
He’s not the one who needs to worry about prison Shreek. As I understand it, they don’t like pedophiles there too much.
https://twitter.com/alexbruesewitz/status/1593656967452663808?t=ASIlBoXZvTLoeAVAM_5htw&s=19
Never forget when Trump went into the WEF aka the globalist lions den and called them out straight to their faces.
“To embrace the possibilities of tomorrow, we must reject the perennial prophets of doom.”
The media was so enraged after this speech.
[Video]
Republicans Contemplate a Post-Trump World
Not nearly as much as the concern trolls are. You know every other Republican candidate is ten times worse than Trump, don't you?
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You know every other Republican candidate is ten times worse than Trump, don’t you?
Well, the media will certainly portray whoever gets the nomination that way...
If DeSantis gets the nomination, then the media will say that he is infinitely worse than Trump, infinitely worse than Hitler and the Reason staff will vote for Biden or Harris or AOC because they are all better than Hitler who is better than Trump who is better than DeSantis
This is why DeSantis needs Trump to run as media cover. They will be forced to portray DeSantis as the reasonable one for two years, then suddenly flip after he wins the nomination.
Not sure if people will buy the pivot.
The media isn’t journalists anymore. They’re just propaganda organizations. Time for them to go.
Yes, they are almost all propaganda sheets when it comes to anything political. The WSJ and a few others are much less into the extremism of the NYT, WaPo, NPR, NBC, etc.
The difference is that DeSantis, unlike Trump, probably won't be saying and doing a lot of really stupid things that make the general public think that the media might be right about him.
You know who else was ten times worse than Trump?
"Donald Trump was born in 1946 and will be 78 years old the day voters cast ballots in 2024."
Careful! Some geniuses here will diagnose you with TDS for stating that fact.
#SorryToAnyoneWhoAssumedOBLWasReallyATrumpFan
Hey Sandra I'm going to write down a sentence and I want you to tell me if it's correct, incorrect, or if you think I or anyone else who would say it has some sort of crazy cult-of-personality political insanity, OK?
OK, here's the sentence:
"From a libertarian perspective, Trump is a mixed bag, mixing heavy-handed culture war with support for tax cuts and resistance to public-health authoritarianism."
Remember, "correct", "incorrect", or "I'm not the one with TDS... your the one with a drinking problem!".
#NotSorryOBLIsntATrumpFan
#SorrySandraSoundsSoMuchLikeDavedaveJFreeAndChemjeff
#SorrySandraSoundsSoMuchLikeDavedaveJFreeAndChemjeffI rescind the above (after the edit window), it was a bit harsh and given the names, could be construed in unintended ways.
#SorryThatOBLdoesntSoundLikeReasonSatirically
#SorryThatSandraInEarnestSoundsLikeReason
Correct.
Now what? We've established Trump's term accomplished something any major party President would find it difficult not to accomplish. Try to imagine a President who's all bad, all the time from a libertarian POV:
Raise taxes on everyone.
Expand the War on Drugs.
Enact comprehensive federal gun control.
Start a major new war overseas.
Even President Bernie Sanders wouldn't be that bad.
I don't know why this is relevant anyway. My opposition to Trump 2024 isn't mainly about how 2017 to 2020 went. It's about the fact that Democrats want to run against him because they know he'd be easy to beat (again).
Abraham accords were not accomplished prior. Many ME states actually working agreements with Israel. Those conversations had been going on for 60 years.
Correct.
Now what?
Really? The two sentences are right there together in the story and you really don’t see where this is going?
OK, pick the correct sentence: “Chief among those charting their own course away from anything Trump is Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis. From a libertarian perspective, DeSantis is, 100% interchangeably a mixed bag, mixing heavy-handed culture war with support for tax cuts and resistance to public-health authoritarianism.”
Sentence 1, sentence 2, or “Wait, I didn’t know what I was doing when you did nothing but directly swap Trump and DeSantis and I agreed!”
Try to imagine a President who’s all bad, all the time from a libertarian POV
Oh, wow. Forget letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, we’re going to go with letting the definitively terrible be the enemy of the slightly above average. How gracious of you to acknowledge that Trump wasn’t, in fact, Hitler.
Even President Bernie Sanders wouldn’t be that bad.
No #LibertariansForAvowedSocialists ?
#SorryThatSandraInEarnestSoundsLikeReason
Edit: Note that my reference to "OBL" in the comments of that article refer to Osama Bin Laden, not OpenBordersLibertarian.
You should’ve left the satirical mask on. It narrowed your focus to being the opposite of SPB2, biasing you towards being correct by default, and allowed people to believe your hyperbole and oxymorons really belonged to Reason and/or were for comedic effect.
"Try to imagine a President who’s all bad, all the time from a libertarian POV"
Biden.
I'm sorry, but president Ron Klain's administration is probably the worst on issues like free speech, censorship, deregulation, politicized law enforcement, etc. we've seen since Woodrow Wilson.
"Careful! Some geniuses here will diagnose you with TDS for stating that fact."
Could be, but TDS-addled shit piles tend to make such ridiculous claims constantly
Just curious. What is the opposite of TDS?
Just curious. Do you wonder what the opposite of cognitive dissonance is too or not? If not, why not?
It’s actually just another form of TDS. But this form has people believing that Trump is all knowing, perfect, is the reason for good things and never the cause of bad things, and always both a successful fighter and a constant victim.
That's the DNC narrative, but nobody actually does that, except for some poor hillbillies who were thrilled to have a politician who didn't use them as objects of scorn and hatred.
Most will acknowledge he's an arrogant asshole with all the class of a used car salesman. But that he still accomplished more towards libertarian ideals than any president in almost 100 years.
Apart from Overt's legitimate criticism of Trump's poor handling of Covid, I've yet to see any complaints here that don't boil down to style over substance.
“(W)ith all the class of a used car salesman.”
SHEESH!! Even in death Rodney Dangerfield gets no respect!
+1
My experience is when arguing Trump with other people you’re usually arguing QAnon or “can you believe he said that”. When actual corporatist fascism we were all warned about looms.
I’d like to see what DeSantis has to say on foreign policy stuff.
Agreed. I find it a bit odd that people so freely use the term "hillbilly", which is very nearly equivalent to the word which must never be uttered. Not criticizing you, Mother, just an observation.
>>What is the opposite of TDS?
a positive form of TDS?
And Biden was born in 1942 and will turn 80 next week.
And Biden will be 80 this Sunday. So?
I am an old guy myself, and I have to say that I am utterly fed up with all of the senile fools in government. I would much prefer to see somebody in the 40 to mid 50s run in 24. DeSantis seems to be the heir apparent. I think Trump is not addled like Biden is, nor is he anywhere near as corrupt but it's time to stand aside and let the youngsters have their turn. I think Biden will be dead or a drooling mess by 2024 so the Dems will find a replacement.
Trump obsession from these writers is getting absurd.
Not really. The country needs a second party and before the Republican can again step into the role of a second party, they need to get rid of the dead weight. I see this as part of Reason's goal. The other in case you missed it is article on how a new Republican Party could be more effective. You know like the article on getting an economic plan.
I see this as part of Reason’s goal.
I know you either don't realize or don't care how authoritarian and disingenuous AF that sounds. It's the other, more intelligent and libertarian commentators around here that agree with the strategy that blows my mind.
Reason, for the last 15 yrs. has had a leftward slant. In 2016, it caught fire, cracked in half, toppled over, and sank into the swamp. Now, after a narrow mid-term, they suddenly value the GOP, personal responsibility, and anything even slightly right-leaning? Fuck no. They want a gaggle of more moderate candidates that they can put people they portray as moderate against so that they can build bipartisan support for the various pieces of BBB. They want a Ron DeSantis. They want a JD Vance. They want somebody who's been run through the ringer of "You could run for higher office, you could vote your principles, or you could do so much more for your constituency for so much longer..." for a couple of years.
I love the liberal mantra that society needs 2 parties but only parties acceptable to democrats.
Youre a living parody.
I would like a party that would eliminate the democrats. Seriously. This country isn’t going to survive them.
"I see this as part of Reason’s goal"
Rank dishonesty is a piss poor way to achieve that.
The Harlem Globe Trotters need a second team. As long as the Washington Generals know it's their job to lose.
Ding ding ding ding!!!
So if Trump gets the nomination, who's his VP? Maybe that woman who couldn't win as a Republican candidate for governor in Arizona?
Maybe that woman who....
Are ewe a biologist? ewe come across as a sheep.
Better candidate would be Stacey Abrams who is a mere 2 out of 2 losses. Give her a third run to catch up with Charlie Crist, Beto Β ORourke, Val Demings (failed police chief, failed Biden VP candidate, failed FL Senator candidate) and Hillary (twice failed presidential candidate, failed human being)
Arizona is a fucking mess for elections. Elections have been run by democrats largely or big state actors for the last decade here, and voting continues to get worse and worse. From illegal ballot harvesting, to broken down machines, etc.
Lake was far better than Hobbs. Even my woman's March in laws voted for Lake over Hobbs.
Arizona has a shit ton of useless liberals from California moving to areas like tucson and Scottsdale, the dumb ones that can not get into UC schools, so they have a large effect.
But Arizona has always been a big party big state on both sides of the aisle. They tend to vote for those who support larger state building.
You expect Sandra to recognize that and ve honest? She was better as a parody but I'm starting to think it all wasn't parody.
So, uh, don’t even consider Trump, not because of Trump, but because no matter whom he picks for VP they won’t be as good as Kammie H.?
Christ almighty! 330M Americans and none, *none* of them would be better than Harri, Kamaltoe…. because Trump. Hole E. Shit!
Aren’t you the one above, arguing that the GOP has way better candidates than Trump? If Trump can’t possibly pick anyone in (or out of) the GOP, who’s DeSantis going to pick?
And the Dem nominee (likely Whitmer or Newsome) will pick some woman who couldn't win as governor of Georgia for their VP selection.
You mean Arizona, where Lake’s opponent is the sitting SoS and in charge of her own election? Arizona, where the elections are historically crooked? That Arizona?
If this is where elections are going, then let’s move past them and just fight it out for control. I favor our chances versus a bunch of soyboy beta male pussies.
American rights > democrat lives
I doubt DeSantis will run this cycle. He's young enough to wait until 28 when Trump will be out of the picture. Why run now and risk alienating Trump supporters he may need later?
Are you suggesting he be like Chris Christie, step back. And risk the loss of his chance. Ron DeSantis is on an upward trend, and this is always good. That trend will not be there in 2028.
Chris McFattyfat didn't step back. He got stomped in the primary, and never had a realistic chance.
No one knows for sure that Chris Christie could have won in 2012, but many speculate that that was his best chance. He waited for 2016 and lost, as you noted, in the primaries.
The same could be true for Ron DeSantis. Right now, he is peaking as his chief rival is in decline. A Trump nomination is 2024 will lose the Presidency and will likely be the end of Trump. That means 2028 will be a very open primary and DeSantis will have a far bigger field of opponents. Best chance is 2024.
Bullshit. Christie couldn't have even carried his own state at that point.
A debate in Christie is pointless. My point is Ron DeSantis's star is rising as his potential rival is falling and it would make no sense to give up the chance in 2024.
Someone's actually using their brain...
That's frowned upon by the anti-Trump cult of personality hivemind around here.
Or, and I know this might be retardedly controversial and grossly advertising my over-the-top rabid Trumpism: We have a primary and the loser begrudgingly backs the winner like every. other. fucking. election.
What's the alternative? We set up the GOP primary so that a (relative) political outsider/deviant/malcontent can't win the nomination over someone who's next in line?
I'd prefer the brawl between DeSantis and Trump not occur because I can't see any gain from it, but do see some clear risks.
Ideally Trump would just mow down the establishment candidates while DeSantis continues shining as Florida's governor, then DeSantis inherits Trump's base in 2028.
There's a real risk that DeSantis gets sullied by association via the anti-Trump and establishment forces who push him to cause strife/schism. It's already starting to happen to an extent.
If DeSantis stays out of the primary and says he's got work left to do in Florida or something, he stays the golden boy and presumptive rising champion. He's only 48. Just don't see the upside of getting in the mud prematurely.
Have to imagine that's something DeSantis is aware of.
Further: my contention is that the fed is rotten beyond repair. I don't think DeSantis can fix that if elected in 2024. I think he can trim around the edges some, but the corrupt core will remain.
Trump has nothing holding him back from blowing it all up, like Musk's doing at Twitter, if he runs and gets elected.
I see Trump as force of annihilation to be a necessary step to DeSantis having a great presidency.
I agree with the sentiment but, per my point, I'm not in charge of Ronnie D. or Donnie T., and there are established mechanisms for deciding fairly between them that I don't think blowing them up, in this instance, serves anyone.
True
It is not unreasonable ask if Twitter will survive Musk, so it might not be a good example.
The question is will the loser back the winner? One of Hillary Clinton's problems was Bernie Bros who were not going to vote for her under any circumstances. That was even when Bernie has conceded and back the party nominee.
I think DeSantis will back a Trump nomination, but will the reverse happen?
If they are smart, they will run a primary with transparent and open rules, hand-counted ballots, and have all results within hours. And the entire primary, they should talk about the importance of knowing that your vote counts. Then, at the end, the loser should gracefully concede.
This would prove you don't need machines or week-long ballot counts, would hurt the 'election denier' narrative, get the country talking about ballot security, AND put the onus on Biden and crew to defend the ridiculous integrity holes in our election process.
Just a comment on hand counting ballots. My ballot had four statewide races, a legislative seat, three local officials and three referendum questions or eleven entries to be counted. When I left my shift at the polling station we had over 1000 ballots or 11,000 entries. Madison had about 145,550 ballots submitted and taking my ballot as an example that is 1,601,050 entries to count. Remember they have to counted by at least two people and be in agreement.
Now let me suggest an experiment for you and a buddy. First take a pint mason jar and fill it with jelly beans. You each count the jar and see how long it takes to get the same count of jelly beans. When you done repeat the experiment with a gallon mason jar.
There is a reason we use counting devices.
Bad analogy. You think you’re smart. You’re not.
How so?
First, you don't 'both count the jar', each person inspects the ballot and agree what it says. You don't have to restart as soon as there's a disagreement and 'count the jar' all over.
I would envision a scenario where a first person would count a group of ballots say one hundred turn in their results and then a second person would recount the group and turn in their results. The results would then be examined for agreement. If they agree the next batch are counted, if they disagree the results are rechecked. Of course, there would be multiple counters to complete this task.
I think you are suggesting first person counts a ballot, hands it to a second person to counts. Even in this scenario counts would have to be periodically cross checked and reconciled. Either way it is a massive task and would take a long time to complete.
Do you think that in Madison, there are also more people who could count, or no?
Clearly it would be a massive task and require many people. A dull repetitive task like this is very fatiguing and would require multiple breaks. All suggesting this would take a long time.
As I have noted there is good reason we use counting machines for tasks like this.
Who's going to run in 2028? DeSantis? JD Vance? (Trump's a has-been and is probably back on TV)
What will the policy be? Culture war 24/7? End all foreign trade? Death to drug dealers? Castrate the Deep State? Castrate Hunter Biden? Lock up Joe Biden? Lock up Jill Biden? Send the Woke to Re-education Camps? Bring back conscription and make real men out of trans men?
They don't dare run on cutting spending. No one will believe that pitch ever again.
Medicare will be broke by then. A super crisis, nay a super duper crisis, one that will require immediate, firm, mindless action or else everyone over 65 will die horribly by next Thursday! More taxes, more spending and free healthcare for all!!!
What Republican will touch Medicare? Or worse yet, Social Security which goes bankrupt in 2032?
Republicans were born without spines so they will whine interminably and then run some Romney clone as their candidate and he will do the same thing the Democrats would do but insist that he did it cheaper.
It is funny how "culture war" to you is Democrats do what they want and any response is your culture war.
Politics can't solve a cultural problem, it only manifests it. America's screwed up "Woke" culture can't be fought politically, it needs to be fought on the level of culture, which means by withdrawing from Woke institutions like public schools, mainstream media and left dominated movies.
Create our own schools, media and movies. That requires effort and talent. Both are out there, they only need to see their own potential.
Does it really matter who replaces Trump as Chief Thief? Under Trump the GOP squandered its legacy of trust; they won’t win the next time out. Probably still unelectable the time after that too unless a genuine mea culpa and house-cleaning goes on.
The reality is that the voters outside the Trump-nut bubble are well aware that the GOP gave them a traitor as POTUS*, and won’t make the mistake of trusting that party again until real changes have been made.
*Of course, they couldn't have done it without the Democrats putting up the worst candidate they have ever chosen - but the Democrats have acknowledged their mistake and shown they can, and are willing to, change the way they do things.
Some Democrats have acknowledged that. Some still have their heads stuck in the sand blaming misogyny or whatever else.
Im curious if there isn't one false story from the left you haven't fallen for.
"...Does it really matter who replaces Trump as Chief Thief?..."
TDS-addled shit-piles think stuff like this is 'clever'; they're stupid that way. And many others.
The Democrats have only acknowledged that Biden is a disaster, a rare case where reality triumphed. But they have never acknowledged that their policies, that Biden set in motion, were worse than Biden’s cognitive faculties.
The Democrats blame Biden, the messenger, not because he failed to communicate the message, but because the senile old fart made the message unmistakable: only the brain damaged will try to advance a no oil, no-energy, high taxes, more spending plan.
You're trying to get a negative bandwagon going, convincing people Trump's washed up because...people are saying he's washed up.
I've never thought Trump had some messianic magic, but I have cold-blooded reasons for thinking he's still our best shot. Sure, other people could conceivably rally the troops just as well, but he's the one who's proven he actually can. I see no reason to think that the same people whom he motivated in 2016 aren't just as motivated now, and it looks like he picked up additional support based on his performance in office. A lot of voters who'd been scared off him had their fears dispelled. Plus we've seen who his enemies are, including the ones here called "regime libertarians", and realize we're going to have to get thru them, some time or other, one way or another, to advance on individual liberty in the USA; it's not like we're going to be able to placate them profitably.
DeSantis shows great promise, but if he's smart he'll wait his turn — and I think he is smart.
^
"You’re trying to get a negative bandwagon going, convincing people Trump’s washed up because…people are saying he’s washed up."
Tuccille's a TDS-addled pile of shit, trying to justify his idiocy.
TDS goes both ways. The more prolonged and severe TDS may now be revealing itself to be the pro-Trump TDS.
TDS goes both ways.
Huh? So if you catch herpes or suffer a TBI everyone who points out that you have herpes or suggests you might have a concussion must have herpes or is suffering from TBI themselves too? I don’t think you understand how diseases work.
You realize you aren’t actually contradicting his or any point, right? Just shouting, “I’m not the one who’s crazy, everyone who doesn’t believe me or doesn’t agree with me is crazy!”, right?
The "bOaF sIdEz!" faith is so easy though...
That's hilarious coming from you.
No, I'm pretty fucking clear about which side is an existential threat to western civilization.
And just because I'm not a simpering eunuch who hates Trump like everyone is supposed to, doesn't mean I'm part of some midwit hivemind.
Everybody can read my posts and draw their own conclusions, but they'll hit either way.
Fair enough. I didn't realize the "bOaF sIdEz! faith" jab was a criticism of examining the argument more than one viewpoint. I'm really a nO SiDeZ kinda person though.
You don't understand what "boaf sidez!" means?
Really?
It's when someone condemns X and you interject to say that Y is equivalent to X, usually without showing your work or any kind of thought beyond the most superficial, in order to virtue signal that you're "a nO SiDeZ kinda person"
I've seen the phrase most commonly used to criticize someone that is hypercritical of one side and hypocritical of the other.
What you're describing is "whataboutism."
You're taking the disease analogy way too literally, but I'll play. TDS is a mental disease where one cannot think logically about Trump.
In some in manifests itself by being incapable of comprehending that Trump can do anything good and the belief that anyone that supports trump is evil. The primary symptom of Type I TDS is shouting "racist" or "bigot."
In others TDS manifests itself by being incapable of accepting any criticism or lack of support for trump, and the assumption that anyone that does so must have a mental illness or lack of intelligence to see the true grace of Trump. The primary symptom of Type II TDS is shouting "TDS-addled xxz"
Also note: I'm not defending an accusation where I was called TDS. Personally, I think Trump was the best president in my life-time, but now he is a gift to dems. I certainly don't think that anyone that supports Trump has TDS.
I'm not sure if Tuccille has TDS or not, but the article is reasonable enough. I was mostly considering the recent turn on the comments here on Sandra/OBL.
You’re taking the disease analogy way too literally, but I’ll play.
So, playing along: If you develop Type I diabetes, everybody who says, “Uh, I think you might have Type I diabetes.” has Type II diabetes? If you get hit on the head or have a bad acid trip or whatever and develop arachnophobia, everybody who says, “Uh, I think you have arachnophobia.” is an arachnophile?
Maybe this wasn’t clear. I took your analogy literally because I think it’s wrong, and because you think I made a mistake taking it too literally, you think it’s wrong too. It’s the same stupid ‘both sides’ argument. No, arachnophobia doesn’t go both ways. Just because you point out someone is irrationally afraid of spiders doesn’t mean you irrationally love spiders. The choices are not homophilia or homophobia. The opposite of racism is not anti-racism. Anybody who honestly understood or believed or “lived as truth” ‘the opposite of racism is not anti-racism’ or ‘the choices aren’t *only* left and right’ wouldn’t find this notion to be so alien.
Yes, you're right. I did say that EVERYONE who says someone has ANY disease actually has that disease. And I also said that EVERYONE who criticizes ANYTHING must love the opposite of that thing.
That's exactly what I said.
Whether it's your fault or my fault, you've completely missed my point. Then found another point. Then, soundly refuted that point.
Whether it’s your fault or my fault, you’ve completely missed my point. Then found another point. Then, soundly refuted that point.
So, are you going to address the point that it's not racism and anti-racism, that there are degrees of racism, degrees of coherence, and that the two may have nothing to do with each other, just like a doctor's medical condition has nothing to do with a patient's medical condition, or are you going to focus on the straw man of "everybody"?
You're analogy was terrible, you aren't convincing anyone of your mental soundness by defending it.
"So, are you going to address the point that it’s not racism and anti-racism, that there are degrees of racism, degrees of coherence, and that the two may have nothing to do with each other, just like a doctor’s medical condition has nothing to do with a patient’s medical condition, or are you going to focus on the straw man of “everybody”?
Oh my God, No. You've won the argument that you made up. No need to include me in it anymore.
Fine. You made an insanely stupid analogy, I pointed out it was insanely stupid and, therefore, my argument is rationally brilliant, happy?
If you didn't want an argument about your shitty analogy, don't make a shitty analogy.
Sure. Fine. You're brilliant. You win.
TDS goes both ways. The more prolonged and severe TDS may now be revealing itself to be the pro-Trump TDS.
Actually it doesn't.
The TDS that goes the other way, the one that has Trump as a messianic figure who can do no wrong is itself a creation of TDS sufferers because they simply cannot believe that anyone does not think like them.
Of course. I get it now. If you believe that it can go both ways, you suffer from limited "left vs. right" thinking. If you think it can only go a single way, you're an open-minded, free thinker.
"TDS goes both ways. The more prolonged and severe TDS may now be revealing itself to be the pro-Trump TDS."
Theoretically, that is possible. Unfortunately, in practice, we have only TDS-addled shits like you as examples.
Cool. Thanks.
No, he's just paid off. It really sucks to read these people who years ago I at least trusted to be sincere, many of whom I've met personally, such as Jerry Tuccille, Jr and Jacob Sullum, just writing as commanded by whoever's in charge there.
I've been a paid shill in writing, but at least I did that stuff anonymously.
lol amen
Was he a paid shill then or is he one now? Either way they've lost all credibility for everything across their career.
You’re trying to get a negative bandwagon going, convincing people Trump’s washed up because…people are saying he’s washed up.
Not just trying to. Have to. This is the closing of the Overton Window. Facts on the ground Trump can't be more incompetent, unConstitutional, or anti-libertarian than Biden. Even if he strokes out in the middle of his term, his cabinet/handlers are more divided and liberty-minded/adjacent than Biden's. The only way he's worse than Biden is if people believe he's worse than Biden. This achieves two main points: Trump weaker than Biden makes Biden (or whomever) v. DeSantis seems like a natural outcome or choice. The natural choice, one way or the other, closes out the books on a lot of Biden's transgressions. That's not to say Trump will (e.g.) prosecute Fauci or that DeSantis won't, it's specifically to make you believe that (again e.g.) prosecuting Fauci is not something the American Government or people would even consider.
DeSantis shows great promise, but if he’s smart he’ll wait his turn — and I think he is smart.
As affirmation above, I don't see it as terrible one way or the other that Trump and DeSantis go to a/the primary and either one wins over the other or becomes the other's VP. But lots of people have a very vested interest in making it clear that Trump shouldn't be in the primary and able to win pretty much the same way the DNC denied Bernie.
DeSantis is 44. He’s got time.
So bullying and enslaving women and shooting and robbing potheads is "individual liberty"?
OK, let me state the obvious.
We Floridians are going to keep DeSantis as our governor until he runs out of terms.
Only then can the rest of you guys have him to fix your world.
+1
Damn right
I guess he will have strong momentum going into 2028 after the country is finally completely exhausted from the stagflation and endless proxy war in Ukraine after Biden's 2nd term. Maybe that is his best calculation, he wouldn't have to have a slugfest with Trump or piss off Trump's base, and the country will be so sick of the democrats by then itll be a sure win for Desantis.
BTW, YouGov polls are a piece of shit, respondents being self-selecting. And whatever polls say now — especially to be discounted because of the psychologic effect of the recent election — are too early to judge by, considering how Trump came from behind in the polls in 2015-6.
Republicans? Or the masters of Republicans?
This all feels like some business led turn to someone who isn't as unsavory as Trump but more than willing to still sign whatever bullshit helps business and the wealthy.
The grassroots still seems very much pro Trump.
Is it businesses or grassroots? Both?
Charles Koch paying Reason Editors to seed and fertilize the lawn.
Whatever choice you make for a replacement for Trump, I will bet it's a career politician who will continue the same old same old. Notice many of these Trump-backed candidates were political neophytes, they weren't the same old bullshitters we've been listening to for 40 fucking years to no avail. Notice too that they won the Republican primaries, didn't they. Yes, they lost in the general but that's a reflection on the electorate, not on Trump in general. You say you want something different? No, you don't. You want the same old political class that's been fucking you over for 40 years.
And they will be called worse than trump. How people forget the attacks on McCain and Romney is mind boggling.
The other stories not being told about the election is the GOP recieved 5 million more votes than dems in the election. In the major races crowed about Trump losing candidates on the left outset the right by 5 to 1. Think Mark Kelly spent 70 million to blake masters 10 million. The big institutions pushed the elections. Nobody wants to talk about reality. They are stuck focusing on narratives.
Well the popular vote is irrelevant, it's only the electoral that counts.
I agree. But the narrative is nobody would vote for election deniers or against abortion. That just isn't true. My complaints are regarding the narratives, not the system.
Yet, taking such a position is a losing strategy. You always shoot for the most votes. Relying on constantly threading the needle where the majority doesn't vote for you but you still win because of the EC is a terrible political plan.
Well the popular vote is irrelevant, it’s only the electoral that counts.
In the presidential election, yes.
Not in the elections that just occurred.
In those wherein the biggest leftist states voted, one would expect that 'democrats take the popular vote' thing to prevail
But it didn't.
The attacks on McCain and Romney were, quite frankly, their own fault. When you choose to run against the Messiah, who else can you possibly be but the Anti-Christ?
I appreciate some of the things Trump did, and he was possibly the most transparent of all politicians I have ever heard of. You always knew what he wanted.
But he ignores things he doesn't care about, which is how Fauci and Brix got and kept so much power, how bump stocks got banned, and why he signed so many big spending bills instead of standing up to the Dems and vetoing them.
Most of my respect for what he did do evaporated this election when he focused so much of his efforts on bashing Republicans who could have beat Democrats with just a little less fratricide. All he cared about was pushing Trumpistas instead of getting rid of Democrats.
I'm hoping the Dems do indict him, tie him up in knots. His ego gave the Dems these midterms which traditionally go against the President, and should have been a piece of cake. His selfishness makes me doubt he'd be any good in a second term.
Trump stands for one thing and only one thing: himself.
Sure he did some libertarian-ish things while in office, but it was all incidental.
I definitely give him big credit for being the president who killed the fewest people in the last several decades. Didn't start any new conflicts. That was refreshing.
Elected Republicans just reappointed McConnell and Mccarthy by big margins.
They're fairly worthless.
Masters would've been good. But McConnell blocked funding to him, while spent $9m AGAINST the R candidate in Alaska, and he had to go up against illegitimate election shenanigans.
To be quite frank, the Republicans actually have quite a few people who could become the nominee. Whatever happens, it will be a competitive primary.
On the other hand, and no one seems to talk much about this, the Democrats really have almost no one out there who appeals to as many people as say, Trump or DeSantis. Who do they really have? A current President with dementia? A VP who makes Dan Quayle look smart? A rich socialist bartender? Governors with little appeal outside their home states?
Whatever happens, it will be a competitive primary.
And generate something approximating the best of both worlds outcome. Trump isn't so stupid as to assume he can beat DeSantis and chase off his voters, and then beat Biden. Even if you thought he was, the premise of the argument that DeSantis is better is that DeSantis sees that and, as we saw with Rand Paul, if DeSantis is that smart, he can make Trump see that.
Really, the tearing down of Trump by some (as usual, lots are useful idiots) is to avoid the cementing of an anti-Progressive legacy. Just a 4 yr. blip of anti-Progressivism. Not something GOP candidates can wear as a mantle and pass on for 20 yrs. As I indicated above, they don't really care if it's Trump or DeSantis or someone else as long as they fit the conception of a Presidential, adult-in-the room, candidate and not some anti-MSM Propaganda, anti-PC kook that all the deplorables elected.
You forgot the small town mayor who fixed the supply chain mess as Transportation Secretary.
Everyone forgets...what's his name.
Michele Obama.
What those visions will be is anybody's guess. If anybody has to guess then anybody isn't too bright and should ask nobody to tell them what those visions will be. (Hint: Mitch Romney, Jeb Bush).
“It’s basically the third election in a row that Donald Trump has cost us the race, and it’s like, three strikes, you’re out,” Maryland’s term-limited GOP Gov. Larry Hogan, —- who will be succeeded by a Democrat
Apparently TDS Republicans aren’t a big win either.
But don’t let that taint the new indoctrinated ‘woke’ narrative that Trump is an evil disease the world must avoid to stay healthy.
Consequences of attempting to De-Regulate the ever growing Nazi(National Socialist)-Regime taking over the USA and preventing a USA invasion.
“It’s basically the third election in a row that Donald Trump has cost us the race, and it’s like, three strikes, you’re out,” Maryland’s term-limited GOP Gov. Larry Hogan, —- who will be succeeded by a Democrat
Apparently TDS Republicans aren’t a big win either.
Hogan termed out. The R candidate in MD, Dan Cox, was endorsed by Trump and lost 33-64%
Sixty percent of Republicans reported feeling "warmly" towards the former president in October
Either that or they forgot to change their Depends.
Hoping to find some edibles, chicken little?
Fuck off and die.
Another Trump presidency has the added benefit of causing people like you such exquisite agony.
One advantage to having The Kleptocracy gag on two geezers is the possibility that hope, desire and expectation might vouchsafe us the boon of at least one of the looters dropping dead on camera. The resulting gifs and memes could give the people no end of nostalgic remembrances.
Been interesting watching Trump's star really begin to fade. Everyone will be so much better off when he's finally gone.
Y'all just wait until the LP throws their game-changing nominee into the mix!!!
Gary? Hell yes! We've seen how voters react to hoboes, straddlers and commie anarchists.
You guys still don't understand Trump. There's nothing appealing about him as an individual. The reason we pushed him in the 2016 primaries is because he called out all the BS from the other 20+ candidates and more accurately reflected the viewpoints of voters. Whether or not this has changed remains to be seen, but I doubt it is the case as the Cheney types are still being pushed out of the party and our newer, more moderate ideology continues to gain traction.
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stop the fussin' and the feudin'. tag-team for the 12-year plan.
Rather objectively, that’s Trump ’24, DeSantis ’28-’32. I’m confident that Trump is more cromulent today than Biden was 2 yrs. ago and will be more cromulent 2 yrs. from now. I’m less convinced 6 and 10 yrs. down the line and especially relative to DeSantis or whomever else. Things happen fast and unpredictably to people in their 80s (or in their 50s, just use the teleprompter to ask John Fetterman).
Of note: If Trump were truly stupid or veinglorious to the point of stupidity or an &uber; mega-MAGA career politician or whatever, he’d be DeSantis’ VP in ’24 and run again in ’28, maximizing his time in the WH. Winning in ’24 pretty much guarantees he won’t be in the WH, or, debatably, anywhere in the line of succession ever again.
ya let T have his four remaining years & sunset out ... things will be going so swimmingly the People will have no choice but to elect DeSatan for the next 8 ...
~~ducks
I confess, I had to look up cromulent. Great gag.
The most telling Trump line was, "They're coming for you. I just happen to be in the way."
People talk about support for Trump as if it were some sort of cult of personality. That is, when they're not ascribing it to racism/sexism/homophobia/xenophobia. I'm not so sure. I think a lot of his supporters knew he was a flawed blowhard. They supported him because he was the only candidate his supporters saw as not actively hostile to them. In effect, much of our political system has been captured by the New Class and the bureaucratic managerial state and society. For huge swaths of the country, the interests of this class and complex is wildly at odds with their own. And they're not entirely out of line seeing those elements as fundamentally hostile to them.
There was a lot in the situation that a libertarian movement, a libertarian movement more fundamentally committed to liberty than to acceptance and approval by the New Class and bureaucratic managerial state, could have worked with them on. There is, or at least should be, if you're fundamentally committed to liberty, at least one broad area of agreement on the problem - the cooption of nearly all areas of life by this New Class and managerial state that has little more than contempt for any views outside its own. Whether that power should be dispersed out to the individual or returned to the popular will is a separate question. Sadly, regime libertarians proved themselves all to happy to keep that power vested in that New Class and managerial state.
Although I agree with your sentiment, you have the order of developments backwards. The "Tea Party" movement was the opportunity for libertarians to work with the abandoned base on their issues and it failed miserably before Trump appeared on the scene. In fact, I suspect that the disappearance of the Tea Party contributed to Trump's success.
The Tea Party mostly ended up getting successfully co-opted by the GOP establishment. So, I guess I'm saying that I agree with your last statement, because it was those people who were pissed off at the nothingburger the Tea Party thing became that Trump looked real good.
"...They supported him because he was the only candidate his supporters saw as not actively hostile to them. In effect, much of our political system has been captured by the New Class and the bureaucratic managerial state and society. For huge swaths of the country, the interests of this class and complex is wildly at odds with their own. And they’re not entirely out of line seeing those elements as fundamentally hostile to them..."
As shown in the Covid lockdowns.
Translation: blowhard baaad, New Class baaad, managerial state baaad, regime libertarians baaad, definitions and clarity baaad! Garble goood.
DeSantis is a mixed bag, mixing heavy-handed culture war
He's the one who proposed a Ministry of Truth, right?
Saying that Trump’s announcement had to be subdued by the failure of his picked candidates in the mid-terms assumes that he has any connection with reality outside his own oversized, self-enamored ego. Of course, it’s possible that he announced anyway in order to retain some influence over the process for the next election, but – again – narcissism runs deep in the Orange Man and I doubt it seriously.
Fuck off and die TDS-addled asshole.
And in non BS news...
Trumps endorsement success rate is at an all time high of 82%.
https://ballotpedia.org/Endorsements_by_Donald_Trump
Good grief what happened to Reason Magazine.
It's gone 90% leftard.
If only we could contemplate a non-TDS-addled shit world...
What "fantasies of a stolen 2020 election"? It takes time to develop the proof, and "2000 Mules" is a major part of the necessary proof. Republicans endorsed by Trump in 2022 did well in states where the election fraud of 2020 had been addressed.
Good article, thanks. I LIKE the prospect of girl-bullying Trumpanzees driving a froe into the Old party to split off the Grabbers of Pussy from the Geezers of Prohibitionism. At last the LP could get to duke it out toe-to-toe with the East German Democrats, offering voters a clear choice between looting and laissez-faire.
Trump is up in the polls by 8 points. Only someone powerful and effective could strike such fear in the hearts of the globalist elites.
Trump lives in a gold penthouse and a beach castle. His brand for half a century has been "elite."
Do you just mean he's a fucking moron, and that's why he's common?
Yeah.... "Because he didn't build that!"?
the media would bash him? The non-use of land in farm lands is the first source of information to which agrarian experts are guided, satellite bus. The main possible problems are determined by the scanning of the Earth, which will protect the crop from threats in processing.
Democrats do not have Republicans best interests in mind. It would be a mistake for Republicans to worry themselves for ONE SECOND about what the democrats think of their candidate. Trump is a proven asset to the party. Now he knows what he's dealing with. DeSantis also seems like a good candidate but I don't think he is the powerhouse that Trump is. Can he deal with leaders of the world like Trump did? Is he really the conservative he claims to be or is he just another Rhino. Personally I just want what's best for the country. http://www.dentontxfence.com
Does anyone other than me find it amazing with all the Reason coverage of every lie about Trump they refuse to cover any negative stories on Joe Biden’s corruption and Hunter Biden’s laptop? Also the Twitter files showing the government colluding to cover up negative stories about the Bidens, the Democrats, Fauci and stifle all dissenting opinions and censor anyone they don’t approve off politically? That would not only be conservatives, but also libertarians, real scientists, and other experts that point out their lies. You really have to ask yourself if Reason part of the corrupt media coverups and censorship? Were people at Reason on the Twitter censorship board? If they are not actively covering up and censoring, they are certainly complicit by their silence.
Desantis just won a governorship. Like a week ago. So he may not even be running. Trump might be all the party has.
Even if DeSantis wants to get in and win, he needs Trump as cover during the primary. If he were to run without Trump, the media would bash him for the next two years.
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Excellent point; Trump is a distraction on other fronts, too.I'll bet a dolars to donuts, the Dems pour millions into Trump's campaign; but they will fail. And the millions spend now, won't b available in the fall. 😉
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Any Republican running for president will immediately be targeted by the DOJ.