Trump Says Taking Presidential Records to Mar-a-Lago Automatically Made Them His Property
According to the former president's lawyers, his decision to retain the documents made them "personal."

Following the Watergate scandal, Congress enacted two laws aimed at preserving presidential records. The Presidential Recordings and Materials Preservation Act of 1974 applied specifically to Richard Nixon, blocking the destruction of his White House tapes. Four years later came the Presidential Records Act (PRA), which applied to future administrations. Under that law, "the United States shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records," which belong with the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA).
According to Donald Trump, that principle is essentially meaningless, because a president can arbitrarily classify any records as "personal" rather than "presidential." In fact, the former president says, no explicit designation is necessary: When he took thousands of documents with him upon leaving the White House in January 2021, that very act transformed them into "personal" records that are not subject to the PRA.
Trump's lawyers, who are wrangling with the Justice Department over the status and disposition of the records that the FBI seized from Mar-a-Lago in August, make that bold claim in a brief that was unsealed this week. U.S. District Judge Raymond Dearie, the special master charged with reviewing those documents, asked both sides to address several issues, including whether Trump "may designate or convert Presidential records to personal ones during or after his term in office."
As Trump's lawyers see it, the answer is obvious. "The Presidential Records Act authorizes a sitting President to designate records as personal records during his term in office," they say. "A President determines whether a document constitutes a Presidential record or a personal record. In this instance, President Trump exercised that authority."
How did he do that? "President Trump was still serving his term in office when the documents at issue were packed, transported, and delivered to his residence in Palm Beach, Florida," the brief says. "Thus, when he made a designation decision, he was President of the United States; his decision to retain certain records as personal is entitled to deference, and the records in question are thus presumptively personal."
According to Trump's lawyers, that "designation decision" was implicit in the fact that he took the records. In a "privilege log" prepared for Dearie, they describe many of those records as "items generated during the presidency that can be possessed post-presidency and effectively deemed personal" (emphasis added).
By this reasoning, it is logically impossible that Trump violated the PRA by retaining the records. It is likewise impossible that he violated 18 USC 2071, one of the statutes that the FBI cited in its search warrant affidavit. That law makes it a felony, punishable by up to three years in prison, to "willfully and unlawfully" conceal, remove, or destroy a U.S. government document. If Trump is right that his removal of records made them personal, they presumably are not covered by that statute either.
The PRA defines presidential records as material "created or received by the President, the President's immediate staff, or a unit or individual of the Executive Office of the President whose function is to advise or assist the President, in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President." Personal records, by contrast, are documents "of a purely private or nonpublic character which do not relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President."
Despite those statutory definitions, Trump's lawyers say, both categories are actually defined by presidential whim. The Justice Department unsurprisingly takes a different view. Trump "may not designate records qualifying as 'Presidential records' under the [PRA] as his personal records simply by saying so," the government's lawyers say in another brief that was unsealed this week. "Such a reading of the PRA would nullify the statute's entire purpose by allowing a President to designate all of his official records as 'personal' records and then to remove them upon departure from the White House. And it would reduce the PRA's detailed definitions of 'Presidential records' and 'personal records' to mere suggestions."
To back up their interpretation of the PRA, Trump's lawyers cite Judicial Watch v. NARA, a 2012 case involving a historian's recorded interviews with former President Bill Clinton. Clinton deemed those recordings personal, and so did NARA. But Judicial Watch, a conservative group that aims to promote transparency in government, argued that the interviews qualified as presidential records.
U.S. District Judge Amy Berman Jackson sided with Clinton and NARA, saying the agency could not be legally compelled to reclassify the recordings. "The only reference in the entire statute to the designation of records as personal versus Presidential also calls for the decision to be made by the executive," she wrote. "The PRA does not confer any mandatory or even discretionary authority on the Archivist to classify records. Under the statute, this responsibility is left solely to the President."
The Justice Department argues that Trump's lawyers are misreading that decision. Berman "held that a third party cannot bring a claim to compel [NARA] to revisit or overrule a categorization of records that the President made during his term in office," it says. "Rather, the court held that NARA's enforcement tools under the PRA are committed to the agency's sole discretion….Although the court opined that the responsibility to classify records as 'personal' or 'Presidential' 'is left solely to the President' during his term in office, the court nowhere suggested that it would be lawful for a President to flatly defy the PRA by designating what are obviously government records as his 'personal' records."
The brief notes that "NARA itself had also concluded that the records at issue [in Judicial Watch] were personal records." In Trump's case, by contrast, NARA repeatedly sought the return of the documents he took, and Trump repeatedly resisted. According to Trump's lawyers, the proper response would have been "civil litigation initiated by NARA challenging the guidelines or process utilized in a given designation decision," since "the PRA does not give either the Archivist or any other official free rein to pursue criminal enforcement."
The statutes cited by the FBI, by contrast, do authorize criminal enforcement. In addition to the laws dealing with improper retention of government records and defense information, they include 18 USC 1519, which makes it a felony, punishable by up to 20 years in prison, to conceal "any record, document, or tangible object" with the intent to "impede, obstruct, or influence" a federal investigation.
The records that Trump took included hundreds of documents marked as classified and mementos such as Trump's pardon for Roger Stone, letters from North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un, and the note that former President Barack Obama left for his successor when Trump took office. Specific information about documents that the Justice Department says Trump improperly deemed "personal" is redacted from the government's brief. But the government's lawyers say those items "plainly constitute 'Presidential records' under the PRA."
The Justice Department notes that Trump's rationale for saying otherwise is the boilerplate claim that certain documents are "items generated during the presidency that can be possessed post-presidency and effectively deemed personal." By contrast, "where a plausible argument can be made that a record is actually a 'personal record' under the PRA, Plaintiff has indicated as much by providing a different basis in the privilege log," such as "newspapers, media summaries/gifts/clothing: inherently personal items, not related to presidential duties."
Trump's PRA argument resembles his claim that every document he took to Mar-a-Lago was automatically declassified, even if it was still marked as secret. His lawyers so far have refrained from making that claim in court, saying only that Trump could have declassified the documents while he was still president. But even if he did that, it is not necessarily relevant under 18 USC 793(e), another statute cited by the FBI.
That law makes it a felony, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, to improperly retain "defense information." As relevant here, the provision applies to anyone who has "unauthorized possession" of "information relating to the national defense" that he "has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation" and who "willfully retains" that information and "fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it." On its face, that law does not hinge on a document's classification.
In both cases, however, Trump is claiming he could not have committed a crime because the underlying conduct (removing the records) excuses itself. As president, he argues, he had the authority to do whatever he wanted with government records, rendering any criminal charges based on those decisions untenable.
That argument seems like an ex post facto rationalization for Trump's instinctive sense that any documents he wanted to keep were his personal property. The Washington Post reports that "federal agents and prosecutors have come to believe [Trump's] motive for allegedly taking and keeping classified documents was largely his ego and a desire to hold on to the materials as trophies or mementos."
The Post says investigators "reviewed the classified documents" to "see if the types of information contained in them pointed to any kind of pattern or similarities." They did not find "any apparent business advantage to the types of classified information in Trump's possession" or evidence of "any nefarious effort by Trump to leverage, sell or use the government secrets." Rather, Trump "seemed motivated by a more basic desire not to give up what he believed was his property." According to his lawyers, it was his property, simply because he said so.
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Give it a rest, dude.
Tom Fitton is an idiot. It's pathetic that Trump's lawyers are actually using his terrible arguments in court.
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Dunka.
I know. WTF. Sullum just can't get enough.
Trump had a standing order that anything he brought to mar-a-lago was declassified. Since he is the president, unfortunately, for all the tear jerkers out there, he could declassify anything he wanted.
It really doesn't matter. He could declassify whatever he wanted.
The USA is not actually a fascist state, despite Trump's claims. That's why he's not POTUS anymore.
Was Trump keeping the documents more or less fascist than the Biden administration calling for an FBI raid on his home over the same said documents?
We are at the point of assigning more or less fascist scores? Think about how pathetic that is for a moment.
Well, you do support all this far left bullshit. You have yourself to blame.
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Since one was an arbitrary (and, as a violation of the PRA, criminal) act and the other was a search warrant signed by a judge based on evidence from the FBI after Trump intentionally lied about having any more documents that he was required to turn over due to a previous warrant (also sogned by a judge), it was much, much worse.
Any time you have a criminal act on one side and an act with checks, balances, and multiple opportunities to do the right thing on the other, one is fascist and the other is not.
"Trump had a standing order that anything he brought to mar-a-lago was declassified."
Funny thing about that. No one seems to recall any sich "standing order". Yet another thing that only happened in Trump's imagination.
"He could declassify whatever he wanted"
Yes, but he couldn't retain them, even if they were declassified, after he left office. By declassifying them he could make a FOIA request for them, but he can't keep the originals.
"Give it a rest"
My thoughts exactly. So Trump took job-papers home during his Job and kept them secure. Now they're back where they belong. What's this about a 2 out-of 10 on the serious crime scale?
This is just as laughable as Clinton pretending Russia running political ads on social media was election fraud to prosecute Trump with.
"Don't mess with intelligence community"... The Nazi's(National Socialists) are armed and dangerous to any USA Patriot.
#TrumpDocuments again?
Even if there was earth-shattering stuff in there, Democrats want Trump available to run in 2024. A lengthy prison sentence isn't in the Establishment's interest.
#OldNews
The best gift the Dems could give to the GOP is put Trump in prison, or at least legally prevent him from running for President. It would remove the albatross around the GOP's neck and energize ALL Republicans, not just the Trumpistas.
Or the death penalty for treason.
The biggest question is, how stupid are the Democrats, and how much fate do they want to tempt? Is their TDS so bad that it will override any common sense regarding Trump, Mar-A-Lago, and the documents (which by all indications are the Crossfire Hurricane documents)?
I'm not so sure about the Pelosi wing of the party, but the progressives sure seem willing to overplay their hand.
Their TDS seems to be pretty advanced.
50/50 chance they try to string him up, but only if he secures the nomination.
Maybe it would be just the extra kick needed to start cleansing the left from the US.
Agree here.
Don't be daft. The rule of law matters. Trump has to face justice even if that doesn't play well with the electorate.
In fact, though, when the charges come in, and Trump shows himself to be utterly craven, it'll be a huge electoral boost. He's going to plead guilty at the first possible opportunity, given the alternative is going to the chair.
It’s laughable that a pedophile Marxist like you bleats on about the rule of law.
Is every principle, and every legal proceeding subject to a politics test in your world? If there is something that should be prosecuted, whether it helps or hurts a political party is irrelevant.
It might also be part of the needed push for people to wake up and see the democrats as an exisntial threat to their lives and freedom. Then nature can take its course.
JACOB! JACOB! WHERE'S THE NOOKULAR SECRETS JACOB? WHERE'S THE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION JACON?!
Turns out this is an argument solely over who owns some copies of documents - like we fucking told you.
But keep up the cope articles. Keep trying to split hairs so you don't have to admit that you have a problem and need help.
Take the L and move on, man.
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"FBI seized from Mar-a-Lago in August, make that bold claim in a brief"
Was the DOJ's claim that they were there to get nuclear secrets bold or not?
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Maybe Donnie is hiding Obama's birth certificate.
You have a strange obsession with Trump. He's taken by the way, and I don't think he'd be interested in going out with a pedo jackass like yourself. You might find Bill Clinton or Bill Gates to be more your speed.
Nah, they're all too old for him Remember he like 'em young, just like Jeffrey Epstein.
Don't forget Roman Polanski. Still a shiny light of the progressive elite. We know he raped and sodomized a 13 year old girl because he filmed it and shared it with his Hollywood friends, who idolize him. He is still at large probably taking even younger girls in Europe. So, I don't wonder why no one has been prosecuted for their pedophilia on Epstein's island. Progressive pedophiles are untouchable.
Biden molested his own daughter and has raped at least one adult woman. So I’m sure Shreek idolizes him.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
TWO
MORE
YEARS
yes
"According to Donald Trump, that principle is essentially meaningless, because a president can arbitrarily classify any records as 'personal' rather than 'presidential.'"
Sure, Donald. As a former King of the United States, you can just retroactively make up legal principles that give you special privileges. Why not!
It's literally true though, even if you don't like it.
Also, any comments on your earlier allegations that Trump stole nuclear secrets to sell to Russia?
I’m sure he’s memory holed that.
I dont get why the leftists here don't get this. It was even adjudicated in Egan vs Navy. Decades ago.
Correct. Currently, the President is the ultimate classifier of government documents. Now, I don’t personally like this unilateral authority and think any President should, at a minimum, be required to document any reclassification in a signed memo (not just verbal only).
Exactly who, using what constitutional power, can make a law creating rules for declassification?
Classification pertains to documents that are created wholly by the Executive Branch. Separation of powers prevents either of the 2 other branches, from demanding the executive branch follow their rules.
The same premise applies to 'Defense information'. Something else that resides only in the executive branch.
For this particular defense documents, the FBI claims Trump posses, do a simple test. While President Trump was still President, could he have given them to the NYT to publish? What law would the Commander and Chief of the Military, have violated? Wh
Except it's not literally true. A law letting the president declare some stuff as personal does not mean he gets to declare anything at all to be personal. Especially those classified documents he took. If it's classified then it's not personal.
Stuff like love letters from foreign dictators might count as personal, but just boxing up everything in the office and taking it home does not.
Especially those classified documents he took. If it’s classified then it’s not personal.
What the President has is copies. Copies that he sent to the controlling agency and ordered all classified markings removed. The agencies either ignored the order, or heavily redacted the document. So since time ran out, he took the marked, but declassified documents. Just as every single President has done.
"Copies that he sent to the controlling agency and ordered all classified markings removed"
Funny, there's no record of him telling anyone else about declassifying anything, nor does anyone remember anything about a standing order. Including his Chief of Staff.
You need to find a more trustworthy source for your news. Wherever you got your information is clueless.
You need to find a more trustworthy source for your news. Wherever you got your information is clueless.
My source of information is the constitution. A document you obviously are not aware explains this kerfuffle.
“My source of information is the constitution.”
Really? Can you point to the part of the Constitution that says, “The President is a king who can say shit and it becomes so”?
Never mind your belief that 1) what Trump had were copies, 2) he “sent to the controlling agency and ordered all classified markings removed”, and 3) declassified (even if Trump’s “mind trick” declassification is legal, a huge if) intelligence documents (especially the compartmentalized ones) are legal for someone outside of the government/Executive/need-to-know group(s) to possess, is either not claimed (#1), not true (#2), or not likely (#3).
Like I said, your source of information is suspect, since it clearly isn’t the Constitution.
<iReally? Can you point to the part of the Constitution that says, “The President is a king who can say shit and it becomes so”?
Sure. Its called plenary power.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
The President has the power to declassify information. There is no review of that power.
The Process to declassify is the President's or those he delegates the power to.
And yet there is nothing about an ex-President holding (and withholding) documents that are only allowed to be held by specific members of the government.
You seem to be confusing the ability to declassify things with the authority to possess them.
Trump isn't part of the government any more, so he cannot possess any documents that cannot be held by civilians, or even "just anyone" in government with sufficient clearance.
Compartmentalized intelligence cannot be held by Trump. Trump held (and withheld, from a lawful request as well as a subpoena) compartmentalized intelligence.
Explain to me again how the Constitution covers that?
I can continue to explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Nor your unclaimed, untrue, and unlikely (respectively) assertions listed in your previous post.
Now do Obama, who took 30 million pages with him, and hasn't returned one page.
Sullum’s responses (pick one): That’s ancient history. Everyone has since moved on. People are only interested in current issues. It’s racist to question anything a person of color does.
You have to be joking. That was debunked weeks ago.
Read a newspaper. Find a new talking point.
The National Archives set up a space in Chicago, where all those document have never left their possession. Everyone, but you, knows this.
No it wasn’t you fucking idiot. It was even linked for you just today. He took 30 million records. Nara stated they had an agreement but he still took them. This included classified records put into a warehouse. This information is from Obama own website. You’ve been given this information multiple times now. You are being intentionally retarded.
The warehouse was never under NARA control. Obama just paid them to let him control it and then classify it as a NARA space. This is the same thing that could have been done with trump, but there was a change in their actions based on who he was.
Obama still remained in control.
Obama's "warehouse" was a boarded-up store at a strip mall with no one guarding it. He was still upheld. Trump is going to win this case.
The National Archives set up a space in Chicago,
No. Obama informed the National archives where he is storing documents, while he was digitizing them. There was no negotiation, because no one has the constitutional power to overrule the President.
Cite?
And how do you see your claims as contradicting what I claimed?
You claimed the NA set up the warehouse. They did not.
The National Archives has no access to the documents, Only by appointment are they allowed in, and not to work with any documents.
That’s backwards.
Jesse is right. Now you’ll s,ink off and pretend you’re not lying. It’s what you always do.
That whack-a-doodle trumpist false equivalency again?
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-obama-records/fact-check-national-archives-and-records-administration-says-they-manage-all-of-obamas-presidential-records-contrary-to-claims-online-idUSL1N3111RO
So?
"Now do Obama, who took 30 million pages with him, and hasn’t returned one page."
WHATABOUT!!! WHATABOUT!!!
Do people actually believe that if "the other guys" did it, that makes it OK? That kind of rampant stupidity is inexcusable in someone who wants to be taken seriously.
The answer, of course, is that it is wrong/illegal/criminal for this to happen.
Did Obama get informed of the requirements, get subpoenaed, fail to fulfill the requirements, legally certify that they had satisfied the subpoena, get caught lying, get subpoenaed again, fail to fulfill again, get raided, and then throw out a bunch of batshit crazy legal theories (including the "declassification mind trick" and the "they're personal if I say they're personal" attempts)?
If so, he is just as guilty as Trump. If not, he is less guilty, but guilty nonetheless.
As I understand it admission of error, contrition and accepting your guilt is significant in criminal matters.
Funny how you leftist faggots scream ‘whataboutism’ yet never ever have a complaint when one of your Marxist masters did the same thing.
That’s because this is bad faith political persecution of the democrat party’s enemies. Just like every goddamn thing to come out of this treasonous administration. And you’re a collaborator for supporting them.
This is an incredibly dishonest take, Jacob.
Instead of admitting you were wrong about Trump stealing nuclear and state secrets, you pull this.
The post-midterm WaPo report is crystal clear regarding the documents provenance:
“That review has not found any apparent business advantage to the types of classified information in Trump’s possession, these people said. FBI interviews with witnesses so far, they said, also do not point to any nefarious effort by Trump to leverage, sell or use the government secrets. Instead, the former president seemed motivated by a more basic desire not to give up what he believed was his property, these people said.”
It’s now beyond obvious that almost every claim that you, the establishment media and DOJ made about the documents Trump took were lies.
Furthermore you’re running cover for a far more frightening authoritarian trend, the use of the FBI and DOJ as tools to attack political opponents.
This is about as low as TeenReason can get.
"This is an incredibly dishonest take, Jacob..."
You're being entirely too kind to the TDS-addled pile of shit.
In Sullum’s defense, he and others were merely quoting what the heroic, patriotic members of federal law enforcement were saying about what they supposedly found in Trump’s home.
Sullum only cares about who is going to legalize drugs for him, and from his perspective, that's probably not republicans. So it's bashing time. Nevermind the fact that republicans are vastly more libertarian than Democrats, and real libertarians have about as much chance at winning elections as a snowball surviving in hell.
Sullum is an evil toady for the totalitarian globalist left who wrote dozens of articles trying to sell the 2020 coup as legitimate. He deserves to be treated as any disciple of Goebbels was.
He’s a collaborator. And one day should be punished as one.
Cronut called this article in the Roundup:
JesseAz 5 hours ago
Sullum was hit pretty hard as well, writing about nuclear secrets not once but twice.
Mother's Lament 4 hours ago
That’s right. I wonder if he’ll correct the record or if he’ll pretend those articles never happened?
Cronut 3 hours ago
Neither. He’ll write another article with a whole bunch of mental gymnastics to justify the raid, even though it’s turned up nothing and will result in nothing.
Props to Cronut. He did indeed call it.
Well played Cro
I guess we'll just have to take their word for it. It's not like the Justice Department has ever lied before...
So, if a Secretary of State were to, I don't know, divert all of her work related emails, including classified ones, to an secured private server in her house would that also be a violation of this law? Not that anyone would ever do anything like that, I'm just throwing it out there as a hypothetical.
"...to an unsecured private server..."
Ran out of time to edit the original comment.
It also wasn't in her house.
That's different, because, uh, reasons. STFU!
No, of course not. She's progressive. Progressives are good. Others are bad!
Yes, as the SoS doesn’t have the same broad classification powers as POTUS.
ffs write about the bad guys
Maybe it's time to revisit the Presidential Records Act. Even well-justified anger toward Richard Nixon does not justify depriving all future presidents of the right to keep their personal correspondence private. When Kim Jong Un sent letters to Trump, I expect he intended them to remain Trump's personal property. But the current law does say otherwise. It's nonsense to say the President can simply decide as he chooses to designate records as not "presidential records". But perhaps the Congress, with a revised PRA, can establish reasonable guidelines for future administrations to determine what are and are not records that must legally be preserved.
Presidential records are the property of the American people and the NARA acts as their agent. Those document, yes even the Kim Jong Um letters are part of our history. There is no reason for the American people to leave the documents in the hands of any President who may wish to eliminate them to improve their legacy.
Now do Obama.
What about Obama?
Of course you would respond that way you goddamn traitor piece of shit.
Court rulings on NARA give the president discretion as to what is a public record. The latest case being the Clinton sock drawer case. This has been told to you many times.
Presidential records are the property of the American people
I dont remember seeing that in the constitution.
It is the law as passed by the Congress and signed by the President, a process that is written into the Constitution. Guess you skipped civics class.
Yes a law is on the books.
What is not in the law is a designation of who exactly can overrule the power of the President, as it pertains to Classified Standing, or determination of Personal vs Presidential records.
And. The law has never been challenged in court. Separation of powers overrules legislation. SCOTUS would need some serious justification to allow the Legislative Branch mandating to the Executive Branch how to conduct its business.
I guess Mod skipped civics class.
By my reading of the law the authority over the records during and after the Trump administration is David S. Ferriero, Archivist of the United States. Mr. Ferriero has the authority under law to overrule the President.
If you're going to play that stupid game, the Constitution delegates powers to the president - but where does it explicitly delegate the power to him to retain or declassify documents?
but where does it explicitly delegate the power to him to retain or declassify documents?
You have the power flow backwards. We know the President has plenary power over the Executive Branch. We know the Executive Branch created the Classification System, and the rules that govern the system.
What you claim, is the Legislative Branch has the constitutional power to dictate to the Executive Branch how to manage the Classification process. The law in place is perched precariously on tacit agreement to adhere to the legislation in an undocumented gentleman's agreement. Knowing full well, the Plenary power of the President rules all of the Classification environment.
You are the one obligated to cite the Constitutional power of any person or agency with the power to overrule the President.
Nope. Power flows from the people to the president. Any power not delegated is retained by the people. This is constitutional jurisprudence 101.
But I guess you authoritarians prefer to look at it the other way around.
Yes power flows from the people. But by a very specific path....dictated by the people as laid out in the Constitution. The People can change the constitution.
Separation of power is a very basic understanding.
Yes but the point is that if you argue that X does not appear in the Constitution, what is omitted is not therefore by default a presidential power. Quite the opposite.
Trump's arguments are obviously shit. He doesn't follow protocol but more importantly, he doesn't listen to his legal advisors. So when they tell him he needs to do x, y, z - and he willfully ignores them and does it anyway...that evidences a mental state (an intent or knowledge) which is usually the hardest element for the prosecution to prove.
Whatever defense Trump's legal team is trying to fabricate for some of these offenses plainly don't apply to the obstruction offense. Regardless of classified or not; personal or presidential records or not... you don' get to defy a federal subpoena and lie in a certification about returning all the documents subject to the subpoena. Which is what did happen.
Whether Trumps announcement of his new presidential candidacy makes any difference in the decision to charge him is unknown but I would suspect it doesn't make a difference given the election is 2yrs out. I think Trump thinks announcing gives him legal protection. It simply doesn't.
Presidents aren’t bound to the ‘protocol’ of their subordinates. Despite the inane bleating of leftist swamp creatures.
You are wrong. We are a nation of laws and rules and even Presidents are expected to follow the rules. Best example is the Secret Service who can make decisions about the Presidents movement even when he may not like the fact. When President Trump assumed the Office he accepted this just as does any President.
Nope. That was all swept away years ago.
Sullum’s responses (pick one): That’s ancient history. Everyone has since moved on. People are only interested in current issues. It’s racist to question anything a person of color does.
Or:
"I'm a TDS-addled shitpile."
The law says that the President can classify/declassify any federal document as he/she chooses. I don’t like this law, in fact, but it is what it is.
a) Declassifying the documents would not make them the President's personal property. It would make them public records that anyone can request through the FOIA.
b) You have to be the acting President. Being a _former_ President doesn't count.
It only matter if he took document AFTER he left office. He didn’t. Everything up to the point where he left office was in his capacity as POTUS.
I k ow your treasonous heart longs to take Trump down, it it isn’t going to happen. Especially not through this.
even Presidents are expected to follow the rules.
President Trump followed the Rules. Because the President is the ONLY person that has the power to make the rules. So the President made, and followed the rules concerning his document classification.
As much as that upsets you, who has the power to prove the President wrong?
The courts have the power as written in the Constitution and the court don't seem to be siding with the former President.
The courts have never delved into a conflict over the Presidents handling of Classified documents,
If the facts are so clear, why have charges not been filed? The simple answer, DoJ wants no part of putting the question in front of a judge. Because the judge is going to ask how the govt is going to prove the documents are still classified.
And in what sense is the federal grand jury subpoena a protocol of a subordinate? The judicial branch, last I checked, is one of the 3 co-equal branches of government. Do you disagree? Defying the subpoena and retaining documents responsive to said subpoena is a classic and easy case of obstruction of justice. Certifying they returned them all (said certification being false) just makes the government's case easier.
"Trump’s arguments are obviously shit..."
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled shitpile.
Crucify him!
Brian, you want him to be deified by crucification?
I’m Brian and so’s my wife!
Basic rule. When you're in a hole stop digging.
I assume that advice was meant for Sullum.
No
That’s never stopped you before.
The Justice Department argues that Trump's lawyers are misreading that decision. Berman "held that a third party cannot bring a claim to compel [NARA] to revisit or overrule a categorization of records that the President made during his term in office," it says. "Rather, the court held that NARA's enforcement tools under the PRA are committed to the agency's sole discretion….Although the court opined that the responsibility to classify records as 'personal' or 'Presidential' 'is left solely to the President' during his term in office, the court nowhere suggested that it would be lawful for a President to flatly defy the PRA by designating what are obviously government records as his 'personal' records."
That sounds like a good legal theory for seizing all documents held by the former President, which should have been made BEFORE launching a raid on his property, instead of months after. There are actual, legitimate legal questions here, and NARA just got tired of waiting for a resolution so they sent the FBI to grab stuff. And the FBI used that as an excuse to use a general warrant to just grab everything instead of narrowly-targeted, specific items.
The fact that the FBI used a targeted warrant as a general warrant should really worry privacy-minded libertarians. It's a huge problem when using the power of the government to target political enemies of the government. But libertarians who hate Trump have this huge blind spot about what it all means for liberty.
Well said. The best thing that could result from this stupid action is for J. Edgar Hoover's FBI be forced to return all the papers to Mar-a-lago. I want information that is classified protected but the material Trumpo collected on the Clinton and democrat Russian conspiracy should not be classified. It should be published for all to read. Trumpo is an authoritarian ass but those who made up the Russia myth are much more dangerous. Now, they are trying to get us into a shooting war with Russia that could go thermonuclear. Trumpo would be too concerned that his property would be damaged than get us into such a war. The gang in charge now is so convinced of their superiority that they think they'll survive a nuclear war.
"Now, they are trying to get us into a shooting war with Russia that could go thermonuclear."
"They" are? And we just _know_ Trump wouldn't?
I mean, if he really was a Putin stooge as you and so many have claimed, then yes, we can be pretty sure he wouldn’t have gotten us into a thermonuclear war.
We had four years of declining warfare under Trump. In less than two years, Biden has let everything fall apart or actively made things worse.
Goddamn you’re a worthless thrall.
"...Trumpo is an authoritarian ass..."
Do TDS-addled shit-piles hope that repeating lies will somehow change them from lies?
Fuck off and die, asshole.
There are actual, legitimate legal questions here, and NARA just got tired of waiting for a resolution so they sent the FBI to grab stuff. And the FBI used that as an excuse to use a general warrant to just grab everything instead of narrowly-targeted, specific items.
It's only an interesting question if you willfully ignore the usurpation of authority and, again willfully, follow along the oxymoronic retcon* and, again willfully, the non-reciprocal/selectively oblivious idiocy. If you want to ignore all of that in order to help the FBI/DOJ/NARA jerk each other off.
Otherwise, you check out a book to read at your local library, the book gets checked out but not stamped with a due date. You never return the book by the due date that isn't stamped on the book. Is it an interesting criminal question as to whether you stole the book? An interesting question that the library should be able to call the cops on you because they failed to stamp the date on the book? Or is it a banal procedural question and the librarian that failed to stamp the book should get better equipment or reprimanded and whomever called the police shitcanned?
*It's pretty clear at this point, the FBI/DOJ didn't know what was in the documents so, how did they get a warrant and, more importantly, vet every agent's clearance for information they didn't know? Not even telepathy explains the oxymoron.
*It’s pretty clear at this point, the FBI/DOJ didn’t know what was in the documents so, how did they get a warrant and, more importantly, vet every agent’s clearance for information they didn’t know? Not even telepathy explains the oxymoron."
Easy facts. After Trump's term ended, NARA and his attorneys/representatives were going back and forth about the return of presidential records Trump took with him to Mar a Lago. Trump's team eventually gave them 15boxes of documents. Included in those boxes and inter-mingled within were many classified documents (or documents bearing classification markings). So NARA contacted DOJ to return those documents to whatever executive branch agencies produced them so they could secure them.
But importantly, they (both DOJ and NARA) also had reason to believe there were more documents at Mar a Lago. Since Trump sloppily intermingles classified documents with random other documents - it had obvious national security implications.
So they continued to be in touch with Trump's representatives asking for any remaining documents (not just classified but also presidential records). Trump's team resisted yet again. A grand jury was convened; the grand jury issues a subpoena. Trump's Team gives them an envelope of classified documents in response along with a certification that they did a diligent search of mar a lago and those were ALL the documents responsive to the subpoena. BUT YET AGAIN the DOJ had reason to believe there were in fact more documents (likely interviewed sources with knowledge). Judge issues search warrant and lo and behold, there are indeed more documents (some classified most not).
Trump couldn't keep his fkn mouth shut and kept on giving shifting explanations on his Truth Social site. 1) There were no documents at mar a lago 2) if there were, he had a standing order to declassify anything he took to mar a lago 3) the FBI planted the documents etc..etc... In all the litigation thus far on this issue; the standing order to declassify anything sent to Mar a Lago is mysteriously missing. Kash Patel was given immunity to testify to the grand jury about that because he claims he was present when Trump issued the standing order. Where is it? Why haven't Trump's team given that to the special master they requested?
Assuming the DOJ had any witnesses that they interviewed who told them what Trump actually had at Mar a Lago and they knew he was lying the whole time... he fell right into their trap despite numerous opportunities to simply hand over the documents PRIOR to the grand jury being assembled. There was about a year where NARA was politely asking for return of documents and all he did was obstruct and bloviate. His sending the original 15boxes of classified documents mixed in with other papers is what put the rest of the government on alert.
Trump quite clearly brought all this bullshit onto himself.
Easy facts.
I didn't ask for facts. My question: How do you clear an agent for the possession of sensitive information if you don't know what that information is? The fact that you address it with facts is like me asking "Should we let a hundred guilty men go free rather than sentencing one innocent man to death?" and you pointing to your record of having let 100 guilty men go free and convicting one innocent man as factual proof of the practice.
But your speech about how Trump is guilty whether anyone hears a dead tree getting declassified in the woods making a sound or not is pretty convincing of your impeccable scruples as a "windycityattorney".
I sure he’s as. Ugh if the real deal as ‘Bo Carra, Esq.’ was.
Sullum, you are so broken man. TDS has really wrecked your brain.
Stick your TDS up your ass, Sullum; your head is begging for company.
And then, make the world a better place: Fuck off and die, asshole.
I have a different take: both the locker her up and lock him up movements are political theater and nothing else. The European monarchs hated the progressive Napoleon with a passion, but they didn't dare kill him after defeating him, because they didn't want to create a really dangerous precedent - they knew at some point the same thing could happen to them. I think the political elites in America have the same thinking - rile up the population for donations and votes, but I don't see them going as far as to imprison someone from within the system (yes, even Trump, he's an insider now whether they like it or not). The political elites are not Bolshevik revolutionaries hell bent on exterminating the native population, they're grifters first and foremost. From this perspective, I wouldn't worry about Trump's legal woes too much.
Trump epitomizes the toddler's rule of possession:
1. If I like it, it's mine.
2. If it's in my hand, it's mine.
3. If I can take it from you, it's mine.
4. If I had it a little while ago, it's mine.
5. If it's mine, it must NEVER appear to be yours in anyway.
6. If I'm doing or building something, all the pieces are mine.
7. If it looks just like mine, it is mine.
8. If I saw it first, it's mine.
9. If you are playing with something and you put it down, it automatically becomes mine.
10. If it's broken, it's yours.
https://www.k-state.edu/wwparent/humor/rules.htm
Gasman epitomizes the TDS-addled pile of lefty shit:
1. I'm focused totally on personality rather than results; I'm a perpetual 13YO.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
He left off what is probably the most singularly iconic of the Toddler's Rules Of Possession. The one rule that pretty much everyone can identify, by name, the creator of the rule and understand that, in context, it supersedes all the other rules:
0. You didn't build that.
What leftist rock did you crawl out form under? WaPo? NYT? Or some other far left faggoty place?
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First, you linked 18 U.S. Code § 1519, and claimed it was about concealing records. The word "conceal" was used in this article, but not put in quotations, because the word is not used in the law. The law is about destruction, alteration, or falsification of records in order to impede federal investigations.
As far as I can tell, Trump preserved documents, particularly those he had ordered declassified and released, but which never were.
He is not even alleged to have destroyed or falsified anything.
POTUS has "plenary" authority to declassify or redesignate documents. There are very few examples in our government of anyone having plenary authority over something. It means that while he was President, that authority was unqualified and absolute.
Great, where’s the record of his having exercised that power with these documents?
Also, you realize that you are arguing that Biden, just by saying so, can reclassify all the documents in Trump's possession.
Great, where’s the record of his having exercised that power with these documents?
It's really your job to explain where you have the power to assume the documents are not classified.
Do a simple test. Can a sitting President be prosecuted for releasing to the public all of the documents in question?
If there is no record of his having declassified the documents in question *while he was President* then there is no reason to think he isn’t just making up the whole story of declassifying them in his present status as a private citizen.
Having the power to declassify documents doesn’t eliminate the necessity of keeping a record of having invoked that power. Only MAGA shills would believe that makes any sense whatsoever.
Having the power to declassify documents doesn’t eliminate the necessity of keeping a record of having invoked that power.
What necessity???? There are rules to follow, which, in all the recent Executive orders dealing with classification, specifically Exempt the President and Vice President.
Th necessity of avoiding the mess he is in right now, where he has no proof he ever declassified the documents.
Now, it might make sense to believe him if that were consistently the only story he has ever given, but it isn’t. He has said all kinds of bullshit, including that the documents were planted.
Th necessity of avoiding the mess he is in right now, where he has no proof he ever declassified the documents.
There is no mess. This is contrived, just like the schoolboard association sending a letter to Garland. But the White House contacted the association and helped them write the letter. Its all political theater.
But you still haven't answered the question. WHO has the constitutional power to overrule the Presidents claim of declassification?
Answer: Perhaps nobody.
Question: Is Trump currently the President?
Your question is. Was Trump President.
Mike is a willfully ignorant shill. After his idiot arguments are crushed he will make them again the future, conveniently ignoring that he has already been discredited militia,e times on the same subject. Jeffy is also a master of that. And probably slithering around here under one of his socks.
The case is literally, “If a dead tree gets declassified in the woods and no one’s around to hear it, can we convict Trump of a crime?”
Did the classified information get disclosed to every agent and judge who signed off and had to search for it? Were they all duly cleared or was the clearance implied as part of the investigation? How? They didn’t even know what was in some/most/all of the documents. Ignorant to the point that they were picking up passports. If they didn’t know what was in the documents, how did they write a warrant that didn’t clearly violate security of persons and effects?
It is an interesting question as to whether a tree falling in the woods without anyone around to hear it makes a noise. The moral/legal/just question as to whether you could harass even average citizens on such unenforceable vague questions was an uninteresting “No”.
Seriously, we’re one step away from the DOJ filing a civil suit against the documents like it were suspected drug money in your average asset forfeiture case. The fact that Reason willfully overlooks the legal oxymoron taking place because Trump is pretty obvious TDS.
He doesn't have authority to steal them.
Stupid take is stupid. The records were his to declassify and keep if he chose to do so. I know how much you lefturds like to deny the outcome of the 2016 election, but he was in fact the president.
-jcr
Tony is an election denier.
Steal them?
This is kind of moving the goal posts. It muddies the subject by changing the circumstances and creates new parameters that have not been established. To debate this, a whole slew of assumptions have to be used.
The reality, all of the "marked classified" (notice even the govt never claimed the documents are classified. The govt fully knows they are powerless to enforce that claim)
documents are copies, not, one of, originals. The reason they are marked classified, is because the originating agency refused to declassify the documents as ordered by the President. So he took them with him when he left, so they would not be buried forever, never to see the light of day. All of RUSSSIA!!!! stuff was to be declassified.
So your "steal" claim is just you changing the subject.
You are conflating two separate sets of classified documents.
Two "sets"? What are you trying to say? The accusation was the President stole documents. But all he has is copies. not the original or singular copy in existence.
He did declassify some documents related to the Russia probe, and there is some (corroborating verbal at least) record he did so. But he had lots of documents at Mar-a-Lago not included in that set of documents.
But he had lots of documents at Mar-a-Lago not included in that set of documents.
He says without evidence. Attempting to continue the lie, the President is bound by some protocol.
He was impeached by the democrats in part for violating ’interagency protocol’. Even though he was their boss and the protocol is whatever he decided as POTUS.
This is the same bunch of bullshit.
Yes, Trump's passports and Melania's underwear, very important to national security.
Just stop being mean to him, gosh! You're obsessed with the fat man. Let him die in peace while you conveniently forget we soiled ourselves in utter humiliation by supporting this demented orange baby man. Hasn't he suffered enough?
Meanwhile, we're off to harass Hunter Biden for two straight years.
The key difference between Trump and Hunter Biden is that Hunter is in fact as corrupt and depraved as the lefturds want us to believe that Trump is.
-jcr
Well, Hunter isn't standing accused of any crimes but only those concocted in the demented minds of right wing loonies.
Meanwhile, you have clear evidence of Trump being a traitor AND giving cushy govt jobs to all his family including Kushner who for some reason got 2 billion from the Saudis. Let's not even mention the nice trademarks Ivanka got in China for her clothing line out of nowhere.
But sure, let's do bullshit committee hearings on Hunter.
How fucking sad must your life be to defend these criminals?
Fuck off and die, shitpile.
Hunter isn’t standing accused of any crimes
What color is the sky on your planet?
-jcr
Hunter Biden is on video admitting to acts that prove him guilty of felonies under federal law. This is at a minimum. There is ample indication that he is guilty of a number of other crimes. Relating to his crooked international dealings, plus he appears to have been serially raping his underage niece Natalie.
So fuck you and your lies Shitlunches.
Hey, shitbag, tell us again how Trump was going to serve out his term behind bars!
Even if Trump did classify all of the documents as personal, which would render inapplicable the prohibition on retaining government records, it seems that he would still be guilty of violating 793 which applies to "national defense information". As far as I can see, it does not matter for this purpose whether the records are personal or governmental.
it seems that he would still be guilty of violating 793 which applies to “national defense information”
Could a sitting President be prosecuted for making public the documents in question?
''National Defense information" is another device use by the gvt to feed public misinformation. It sounds like a whole new category, but is just the same as classified. Wholly controlled be the President.
Imagine still supporting this traitor.
I guaran-fucking-tee that if Biden had top secret docs in his home after his presidential admin there would be calls to hang him high in DC and put on every news network by the same people that will excuse every single fucking thing ever done by Trump.
"Quid pro quo is wrong when it works against Biden or for Trump." - raspberrydinners
You currently support an a regime that is 100% treasonous and corrupt. You should be executed as a traitor yourself.
Let's turn the whole argument around and give it full faith and credit and even, deferentially, take Trump out of it:
"A duly elected President is guilty of no crime other than personally possessing the documents that he couldn't declassify." Is really the official libertarian position? Really? If so, I'm out. I don't give a fuck if it's Carter, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, or Obama. The documents belong to We The People. That may not necessarily mean they can individually be held by every last member of We The People, but it's clear, in spirit and in letter that, at the highest level, they can be held by representatives duly elected by us. Specifically not unelected bureaucrats. And specifically not seized and removed absent some other crime.
His clearance can be revoked and he can be barred from possessing documents going forward (assuming not re-elected), but that him simply possessing these documents is a criminal offense is 100% grafting a new limb onto the byzantine leviathan.
“A duly elected President is guilty of no crime other than personally possessing the documents that he couldn’t declassify.”
You start with a false premise. There are no documents the President cannot declassify.
A. It's not my premise. That was the point of the first sentence.
2. The starting faulty premise, from a lot of perspectives but critically for a libertarian perspective is: A person is guilty of possessing [object].
III. The classification/declassification is immaterial. If the government is entitled to kick in your door and seize your shit, the fact that you're fully vetted and licensed to possess said shit means practically dick. The whole reason for vetting and licensing was to establish a procedure for avoiding having your door kicked in and your shit seized in the first place. If they suffer no consequences for door kicking and shit seizing directly, the license is just a prayer that they do not alter the deal any further.
And in the BIG picture... "Our democracy" is dividing the nation...
Maybe the USA is a *CONSTITUTIONAL* Republic and NOT a Nazi(National Socialist)-Democracy.
We have no democracy, and any attempt to create on is treason under the constitution.
Or for clarity [WE] mobs don't get unlimited democratic Gov-GUN usage and thinking that form of government into existence is treasonous to the *CONSITUTIONAL* USA.
Democracy (i.e. [WE] mob RULES) is *NOT* what grants liberty and freedom.
The USA Constitution is what grants liberty and freedom.
The US Constitution uses representative-democracy as a tool for AND ONLY FOR control of defensive Gov-Guns usage to ensure Liberty and Justice for all.
The Trumpsucker position:
1. Trump is above the law.
2. If you disagree, you must be suffering from TDS.
The TDS-addled pile of shit position:
1. The law is what I say it is since I'm a TDS-addled pile of shit
Hey Josevo, how's it going, bro? Still singing that same old song, "How great Trump art", I see.
Trump is great for being one of very few to DE-REGULATE...
Apparently that really upsets your narcissistic Power-Mad Ego.
We presume people are innocent until proven otherwise. Sometimes we even assume they're innocent even after we've proven them guilty and just assume that no reasonable prosecutor would bring charges.
Go ahead. Call me a partisan hack.
You’re too stupid and dishonest for discussion. You should also be tortured to death for your pedophilia.
“A duly elected President is guilty of no crime other than personally possessing the documents that he couldn’t declassify.”
You start with a false premise. Why would he no be able to declassify?
Trump's motives are so confusing, but let's suppose that he wins this case. Just like Clinton and LBJ before him, he gets to choose what papers go where. Now, does his family (Barron Trump?) get to sell these docs, put them for auction on eBay or at Christie's? Setup a museum? In the bigger picture, I wonder what relative of a dead President has got some juicy items ... including classified docs ... from their grandpappy's estate?
So because someone is let off on speeding charges because they weren't watching their speedometer obviously means everyone can now get wildly drunk, load up on drugs, purposely run over little children?
Yep; That about summarizes your BS.
Seems like the far left WaPo agrees with Trump:
(Via WaPo) – Federal agents and prosecutors have come to believe former president Donald Trump’s motive for allegedly taking and keeping classified documents was largely his ego and a desire to hold on to the materials as trophies or mementos, according to people familiar with the matter.
As part of the investigation, federal authorities reviewed the classified documents that were recovered from Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home and private club, looking to see if the types of information contained in them pointed to any kind of pattern or similarities, according to these people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss an ongoing investigation.
That review has not found any apparent business advantage to the types of classified information in Trump’s possession, these people said. FBI interviews with witnesses so far, they said, also do not point to any nefarious effort by Trump to leverage, sell or use the government secrets. Instead, the former president seemed motivated by a more basic desire not to give up what he believed was his property, these people said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/14/trump-motive-mar-a-lago-documents/
Instead, the former president seemed motivated by a more basic desire not to give up what he believed was his property, these people said.
Some fuckin' libertarian bullshit, is what that is!
I agree with you, they are going to find a way to disparage Trump even when he is correct, but the point of the article is Trump was correct and TDS suffering (T)Reason.com was wrong.
I didn't vote for Trump wither time, but I can't help but notice:
the democrat filled "Justice" Department just can't get off the ass of the closest thing to a "peace candidate" that we've had since Jimmy Carter.
There seems to be a lot of overlap between the Prison Industrial Complex and the Military Industrial Complex.
There seems to be a lot of overlap between the Prison Industrial Complex and the Military Industrial Complex.
The difference between the two and the Medical Industrial Complex 2019-2020 was guns, right? The MedIC was locking people away the way the PIC would, the only difference was that the MedIC and the PIC don't wield guns the same way the MilIC does.
What next from Jacob ? An amicus curia brief outlining the President's right to reti as personal documents any Federal Reserve Notes that strike his fancy as he strolls through the Bureau if Printing and Engraving under the aegis of Executive Privilege?
Your comment is as stupid as you believe it to be clever. As are you.
Hopefully the end result is trial, conviction and then execution by firing squad.
Not for Trump, but for movement Marxists of the democrat party, yes.
Speaking of which: it's been three months. Where are the charges?
In the pages of fevered democrat fan fiction I would imagine.