Federal Court Upholds Cruel, Unconstitutional St. Louis Ban on Sharing Food with Homeless
The ordinance governing how food can be shared is designed to make it next to impossible to share food.

Earlier this month, a federal appeals court upheld a St. Louis ban on sharing "potentially hazardous" foods with the homeless and less fortunate, Courthouse News reports. The ban was challenged by Pastor Raymond Redlich and a colleague, who believe they have both a duty and a right to provide food to people in need.
The suit grew out of a Halloween 2018 incident in which police ticketed Redlich and Christopher Ohnimus, both employees of New Life Evangelical Center in St. Louis, and ordered them to appear in court for handing out bologna sandwiches to homeless people. The citation alleged the pair was "'operating [without a] permit,' and that probable cause for arrest existed for 'operating prepared food [without] proper permits.'"
While the city later agreed not to prosecute the pair, Redlich and Ohnimus sued anyways to protect their right to continue sharing food with those in need. They allege the city ban violates their rights under the First and Fourteenth Amendments—including their freedom of religion, expression, and association.
Last year, the U.S. District Court in St. Louis ruled in favor of the city. This month, the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the lower court ruling, holding "government regulation of 'inherently expressive' conduct—such as distributing sandwiches to the homeless—does not necessarily violate the First Amendment if the regulation furthers 'an important or substantial government interest' unrelated to the suppression of free expression."
"Some might think that the suit is a lot of baloney, but it… raises interesting issues," St. Louis city attorney Julian Bush told St. Louis Today in 2019, shortly after the lawsuit was filed against the city.
The lawsuit is not baloney at all. But the St. Louis ordinance—and the courts' deference to it and those enforcing it—are pure hogwash.
The ordinance contains several absurd requirements that do not pertain to and should not apply to people donating food to needy people. For example, as the ruling details, the ordinance (which has been amended since 2018) requires a person to provide a 48-hour notice to the city related to their "event;" mandates the purchase of a $50 temporary food-service permit to distribute potentially hazardous foods; and requires the presence of a handwashing station, potable water, and "food-grade washtubs." All this to hand out some sandwiches?
Alas, the ordinance also hates sandwiches. Most of them, at least. It prohibits the serving of any sandwiches that contain meat, poultry, eggs, or fish, citing food-safety justifications. But the same ordinance allows the serving of potentially hazardous foods "requiring limited preparation, such as hamburgers and frankfurters," apparently because those foods "only require seasoning and cooking." (Note: a bologna sandwich requires neither cooking nor seasoning.) Apparently, St. Louis and the Eighth Circuit believe "sandwiches containing MEAT, POULTRY, EGGS, or FISH" are less likely to cause foodborne illness than hamburgers and hot dogs, which are, after all, "sandwiches containing MEAT."
If that makes little or no sense, then chew on this excerpt from the Eighth Circuit's ruling:
It is an imminently reasonable proposition that a municipality has a substantial interest in preventing the spread of illness or disease among its citizens, including its homeless population. And the evidence before the district court belies Appellants' claim that the City failed to make an adequate showing with respect to the interest served by the Ordinance. The City introduced evidence that it has traced incidents of illness among its homeless population to illegally distributed food dating back to 2012.
Beyond taking liberties with the English language (using "imminently" in place of "eminently"), it appears the Eighth Circuit did nothing more than take the government and its "evidence" at their word. (That's particularly maddening for many reasons, not the least of which is that an appellate court hearing a case brought to it after a lower court grants summary judgment is required to do much the opposite.)
Now, about that "evidence." The Eighth Circuit relied on reports of purported cases of foodborne illness among the homeless in St. Louis that the city says it traced to "illegally distributed food dating back to 2012." But exhibits in the case show those "cases" involve a former police officer who appears to have a preternatural ability to diagnose cases and causes of foodborne illness among St. Louis's homeless population.
In an August 2012 email titled "Parking Problems in Downtown West," which focuses mainly on parking and noise complaints, former St. Louis police officer Kenneth Kegel referenced the existence of "complaints" from unnamed "residents that on weekends, groups are coming downtown and providing food to the homeless." Kegel also referred in the email to "occasions where individuals have gotten sick as a result of the provided food."
That's it. That's the relevant evidence the court relied on. In his email, Kegel does not declare nor imply firsthand knowledge of such foodborne illness cases. Neither does he cite the name of any person or persons who may have such knowledge. Nor does he claim he or any medical professional diagnosed any symptom(s) of foodborne illness—or distinguished any potential sources or causes of such illnesses—something even experts find increasingly challenging.
In other words, the evidence provided to the courts by Kegel is at best, pure speculation that is entirely irrelevant to the immediate case. Even if everything Kegel wrote is 100 percent true, for a court to rely on it isn't just laughable. It's eminently unreasonable and unfair.
When it comes to sharing food with the homeless, such unreasonableness and unfairness aren't confined to St. Louis, as I've detailed many times (including here and here). Even as the ranks of homeless and others in need swell today, senseless bans on sharing food with them persist. Such bans are maddeningly common, as I detail in my book, Biting the Hands that Feed Us: How Fewer, Smarter Laws Would Make Our Food System More Sustainable, citing examples in New York City, Philadelphia, Las Vegas, Birmingham, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, and elsewhere.
"Sharing food with people who are hungry is one of the most pro-social things imaginable," Freedom Center of Missouri attorney David Roland, who represents Redlich and Ohnimus, told me this week. "Maybe the Eighth Circuit didn't see it that way in this case, but we will continue the fight to make sure that people can freely provide food for the needy."
Continuing the fight, Roland says, means his clients are seeking a re-hearing. Given the righteousness of their case and cause and the courts' shoddy treatment of the plaintiffs, they sure deserve one. And that ain't no bologna.
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The people will eat the free food, but what they really want is free drugs. Beer and cigarettes are probably second best.
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And you know this because you're a homeless druggie? Thanks for sharing your personal experiences.
Or has eyeballs... but calling him a "homeless druggie" is funner.
it shouldn't be illegal but we really should discourage people from doing things like this. if you feed the pigeons you will get more pigeons.
Just give all the poor people college loans.
Can we forgive the debt in advance?
Those are for middle class people.
Whoosh! (Again)
Mike's being deliberately retarded.
I don’t think much effort is necessary.
https://twitter.com/DailyLoud/status/1586159128145121280?t=wWONG9zLVro5FN84yDmHPA&s=19
Goodwill is rejecting Yeezy’s and will not sell them at any of their locations
No, "imminently" was correct; it will be reasonable any day now. I mean, c'mon man, it only took four years to get this far, cut 'em slack, it's not like these things can happen any faster. It's imminent, man, imminent!
Poor sarc.
Lol.
sarcasmic
January.17.2022 at 10:11 am
I was homeless for a half a year.
https://reason.com/2022/01/17/you-cant-solve-homelessness-by-making-it-a-crime/?comments=true#comment-9308808
So was Musk, so good company, right?
Yes, sarc also went on to own an electric car company, and shoots rockets into space.
I heard Sarcasmic just bought himself some social media sort of thing.
He’s probably rich enough. He’s such a high roller he rents half million dollar houses for vacation.
And hangs out with COOL DUDES!
He's not the only one. I was homeless at the end of 2020 for a while between running out of money and getting a job as a long haul truck driver. I suppose I was technically homeless while I was a truck driver too, since I was just living in the sleeper cab.
Do you know what a Cuban sandwich is?
Omg. Just looked it up. Sounds delightful. Why have Cubans been holding out on this??
They’re quite good, and a place like Key West has a few great places for them. If I recall correctly, the Cuban sandwich was invented either in Havana or Tampa.
I know. Making fun of sarc. I've had them plenty of times.
And you still have no idea why I compare you to a girl in middle school.
You’re flirting with him?
I thought it was St. Augustine, one of the oldest cities in Florida. The cigar factories. But I guess Miami and Tampa both lay claim to it. Reading the history is interesting. Actually started with fish and bird but later with Pork products as the Europeans came to the Caribbean. St. Augustine has some good ones too!
We’ve made a Cuban pizza.
Like it.
Fidel and Che simultaneously giving it to a Havana whore?
Che? Argentina on line 2. No wait, they hung up.
Don't cry for Ché, Argentina.
Even fewer Cubans would cry for the Butcher of La Cabana Prison!
Agreed. I normally avoid politics at work (besides economic lessons on inflation to customers) and I told a man in my store with a Ché tattoo: "Lea usted á Ché. El es no bueno hombre!" ("Read about Ché. He is not a good guy!")
Well done!
Two slices of government bread and a chit to stand in line for a slice of "meat"?
Like a Wish Sandwich! Ba! Ba! Ba! Ba! 🙂
The Blues Brothers--Rubber Biscuit (Live Version) (Official Audio)
https://youtu.be/YyZRg0v4x4I
Do you claim to be a victim of circumstances or did you simply overcome it without a victim mentality?
I mean, I guess I was a "victim of circumstances" insofar as Covid lockdown shit kinda fucked up my job plans, but... it just was what it was, and fortunately I did manage to get one eventually.
Ad hominem for the win!
I miss the days when conservatives left fallacies for the left, instead of competing over who can use them the most.
It's not really an ad hom so much, it's an insult. Even though I try to refrain from both, for similar reasons, they are different.
It's not even an insult. It's an actual direct quote. Sarcasmic really said that.
Sorry, I thought he was referring to the first post and not your direct quote.
Should have scrolled up.
It's always used as evidence that I'm wrong about something, which makes it an ad hominem.
"Ad hominem"
FFS retard, posting a direct, relevant, in-context quote from you with no commentary is not ad hominem.
How many times are you going to misuse the phrase before getting it right?
It sounds fancy.
Probably many, many more times.
It is a supreme badge of honor of mine that it's the complete assholes around here are the ones who despise me the most.
I don't want to be liked by assholes who mock people for being homeless.
“It is a supreme badge of honor of mine”
Your chest must look like Brezhnev’s at a May Day parade by now, given that absolutely everybody hates you.
Shrike might not totally hate him. So he’s got THAT going for him.
I don’t despise you. I’m glad you’re here. I’m a firm believer in keeping all positions in the open And in this thread perlmonger admitted he was homeless, and nobody mocked him. It’s as if you’re still missing something. On purpose?
While you’re a good mix of dishonest and stupid, and I love to call you Lying Jeffy, I think it’s your stupidity at play here.
Maybe another rant about “tribal hatred” of Boy Scouts or whatever the fuck you were talking about? Bears in trunks? Did I mention I’m glad you’re here? Keep it up Lying Jeffy, you’re doing great.
You and others mocked sarcasmic for being homeless. Because your hatred for him knows no bounds, you go completely scorched earth on the people you hate. That is you being an asshole. When are you going to dox and swat him? Is that next?
And you are a completely dishonest troll. You claim to be vociferous in your denunciation of dishonesty, yet you continually let blatantly dishonest crap slide from your tribal allies while you will endlessly criticize me or others for ticky-tack garbage like using quotation marks incorrectly or naming the wrong logical fallacy. You are just a tribalist troll. Your criticism of dishonesty only extends to the people you don't like. That is itself dishonest.
Laughing at someone who brought up that they were homeless unsolicited is just like doxing and swatting them. Fucking idiot.
Thanks for keeping it up like I asked, though. Gave me a chuckle.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programing of evil church ladies and bears in trucks!
I would be embarassed to use that sentence that appears thousands of times on the Net
"Now back to our regularly scheduled programing of evil church ladies and bears in trucks!"
You should trot off to someplace where you'll get the respect you deserve, Nambla.org or CPUSA.com. But you're obviously a masochistic troll who loves the opprobrium hurled at you for your obvious respect for pedophiles and far left progressive positions. Why else would you be here?
When are you going to dox and swat him? Is that next?
Most of the people in the comments would do that if they could. You, me and Mike. They’d get together and have a party after. “Look how cool we are! We got those guys killed!”
Because they can't compete in the arena of ideas, they attack, attack, and attack some more. These are the same people who beat up the smart kids in high school.
Not sure what’s worse: You actually believing this, or not believing it and saying it anyway.
Yikes! What does he want to do to Boy Scouts now? Chop their dicks off? Sodomize them?
It's the internet. They'd never contemplate saying any of the things they say here to a person's face. They know they would be beaten to a pulp and the cops would laugh at them and tell them they deserved it. So they do it here. Internet tough guys. Pathetic.
Please, we all know you would beg like the wino you are if you ever met any of us in person.
I just mentioned this case yesterday (same source, even!)
Obviously these guys should still be allowed to hand out food without having a commercial kitchen and all of that. But I'm a little bit biased, perhaps. A good friend of mine used to go out with these guys to hand out these sandwiches. And socks. (There is still no regulation on handing out unlicensed socks to the hobos)
In 2014, after the (2nd) Ferguson riots, when I was volunteering to help clean up the place, board up buildings and paint, there were a couple of community groups who showed up to provide us with lunch. Ham sandwiches, chips and soda. It wasn't fancy and it wasn't much, but it also wasn't expected, so it was really appreciated and we felt that it was very thoughtful. Should those folks have been chastised? I guarantee you these meals were not prepared in a commercial kitchen. Then again, I didn't have to eat them if I didn't want to. My choice, my risk.
My sandwich-delivering buddy eventually fell out with the group in the above article. The New Life Evangelistic Center has some history of being a thorn in the side of the STL City government. This is probably one of the more benign examples of them flouting or skirting the rules. They ran an unauthorized homeless shelter for a long time that was basically just a drugged-out hobo hangout. They used to provide camping materials for the tent cities under the bridges downtown, until they got banned from doing that.
"Should those folks have been chastised?"
Don't you understand how a totalitarian state works? Only badge-wearing officials, or their licensed minions, have the authority to distribute food.
On one hand, harassing people who are feeding the hungry is a dick move. On the other hand, I don't want them setting up their handouts across the street from my house and attracting a bunch of two-legged rats to the area either.
There is never a discussion around these events regarding costs, maintenance, or security.
If I want to have a family cookout at a park abd use a Ramada, I have to get a permit and pay a fee. I am also expected to clean up afterwards.
Yet these groups often use a public resource over and over encouraging people who don't have to follow the same procedures, leave trash all over including needles and drugs, and will get into fights and cause violence.
Society is about balance. If these groups want to hand out free food, they should also be paying for cleanup and security if needed. Have a liability for any crimes that happen from those they encourage to come and hang out for long periods. But this part of the discussion never happens.
This is why food kitchens to exists. They account for these costs. They provide other helpful services. They take responsibility for any costs associated with their charity. It isnt just hand out food and then let the local residents take care of the rest.
It is a fine balance. It is not costless as these stories portend.
Society is about balance.
Fuck that. Liberty is what is important here, not some mythical "social balance".
You literally spent the last 2 years saying that going out unknowingly with a cold was a violation of the NAP.
I don’t call him Lying Jeffy for nothing
No, I spent the last 2 years arguing in favor of the concept of negligence, which actually exists. You all pretend it doesn't exist because it doesn't fit nicely into your simplistic worldview.
Do you even know what the NAP is? Those who violate the NAP are guilty of depriving individuals of their LIBERTY. Not because "society is out of balance" or somesuch.
But please, continue to attack me while your tribal allies utter collectivist whoppers like "society is about balance", or that people who hand out free food should be held legally responsible for crimes that other people commit. This is a ridiculous unlibertarian standard. When are you going to get around to criticizing that one?
What if I told you the CEO of Phizer admitted that they didn’t even test to see if the vax stopped people from spreading it?
This is a ridiculous unlibertarian standard
In case you haven't figured it out yet, the majority of people on this board are hostile to libertarianism.
Lying Jeffy’s position is that it’s un-libertarian to not get an experimental “vaccine” that doesn’t actually stop people from spreading an airborne virus. Sarc agrees.
And liberty is about the right of the majority of the public to enjoy a park that's not overrun with an infestation of bums. Not the alleged right of the bums to be there.
But given the left's fanatical idiocy on the whole topic, I recommend that the city achieve this end by privatizing the park, selling it off to the nearby home-owning and renting residents so they can padlock it and reserve it for their own use.
The market will do a much better job of this than government would ever do. And I'm sure the market will also find the bums a place they can eat where they won't be ruining life for their unconsenting neighbors. Inside the church that is now serving food outdoors is the most obvious good answer, but not the only one.
In a free society, citizens would be forced to pay for city parks; parks and roads would be private and their owners could prohibit you from handing out food.
Your “liberty” consists of being able to do what you want with money forcibly extracted from others, and that’s not liberty at all.
Smartest thing you’ve said here.
Depends on the tribal status of the people involved.
If they are church ladies feeding lunch to boy scouts, then no, and it should be totally legal and a government that would restrain the church ladies is a totalitarian fascist nightmare.
If they are a RADICAL CHURCH giving food to HOMELESS BUMS then yes, and the government is right to shut it all down, after all what about food borne illnesses and if restaurants have to comply with food service regulations then why shouldn't churches, and just think of the incentives and enabling of immoral behavior like being homeless, and if you even mention things like defending liberty for its own sake it means you're a leftist who voted for Biden and all the homeless bums should be deposited on your front yard.
So it's complicated.
That's true. Who always matters more than what.
What if they are radical church ladies feeding homeless boy scouts who are only in that particular park because they failed orienteering and lost their compasses?
Asking for a friend.
You know who likes to take lost Boy Scouts camping?
Alec Baldwin?
https://youtu.be/izcEMhWACSg?t=130
Sara Palin’s Buttplug?
Drag Queens? They love camping it up.
What if it was a church group feeding a pack of bears that lived in the trunks of cars?
So now it’s cub scouts?
I see what you did there.
Then it depends on who the radical church ladies voted for.
If they voted for Democrats, then the government is right, the church ladies are evil and must be condemned.
If they voted for Republicans, then the government is evil and fascist and horrible and the church ladies are heroes for fighting against it.
Yet he swears he's not a Democratic Party shill, folks.
I think we broke him like sarc. Unless I missed a bunch of “church ladies” commentating recently? WTF is Lying Jeffy talking about?
Given mounting food shortages, he could be in sugar withdrawal. Perhaps his next industrial sized barrel of Ben & Jerry’s is currently on back order.
Who are you talking about, Lying Jeffy? Church ladies? You and Encog sucking each others cocks?
Remember this as election day approaches: Total Democratic control in Washington DC will not only guarantee Biden's proxy war with Russia continues indefinitely. It will also guarantee Reason.com's benefactor Charles Koch keeps getting richer.
In 2022 Democrats have raised the minimum wage by: $0.00 / hour
In 2022 Reason.com benefactor Charles Koch's net worth has increased by: $4.9 billion
#VoteDemocratToHelpCharlesKoch
#VoteDemocratToHelpDefenseContractors
#BlueWave2022
Don't forget gifting high income young Democrats with 10K each so they can donate to candidates.
W/ luck, biden can go from mush-mouthed sabre-rattling against China and Russia, and add N Korea. Proxy war on 3 fronts for the win, OBL.
Which Koch companies produce arms and war materiel? Asking for my financial advisor.
Our pamphlet, good sir. (hint: all of them)
No self respecting libertarian votes.
If any of us were self-respecting, we wouldn’t be posting here.
"requires a person to provide a 48-hour notice to the city related to their "event;" mandates the purchase of a $50 temporary food-service permit to distribute potentially hazardous foods; and requires the presence of a handwashing station, potable water, and "food-grade washtubs." All this to hand out some sandwiches?"
This is the ordinance that governs our BBQ competitions when we're downtown. We actually have city health inspectors come by and check our coolers of meat for temperature, make sure we have separate waste bins for food waste, recycling, and ash. We need to have a wash station with at least 3 bins for wash, sanitize, and rinse. When I'm doing pulled pork overnight, I need a special permit to 'camp' because I'm sleeping in our booth (off and on) while the pork butt is cooking. (I don't know which genius decided that pork butts should be turned in at 9AM)
See: stationary bandit.
"requires a person to provide a 48-hour notice to the city related to their “event;” mandates the purchase of a $50 temporary food-service permit to distribute potentially hazardous foods; and requires the presence of a handwashing station, potable water, and “food-grade washtubs.” All this to hand out some sandwiches?”
None of this seems unreasonable...
We comply every time we do the BBQ fest - but should the same rules apply to people giving out ham sandwiches?
See, I was thinking the opposite.
Maybe I’m more of an anarchist than I thought….
Reason Rundown
This is “a day in the life of a Twitter employee.” No wonder @elonmusk is firing 75% of them
What is this thing called "work"?
Did you not see she had a couple meetings?
Is that like "influencing"?
Safe assumption.
Maybe Musk wasn't so dumb to buy it after all. Twitter could be run by robots. It accepts short messages and posts them, then keeps track of who likes them. Nothing there needs 8,000 employees making a median total comp of 250K (2 billion a year in total). Cut expenses by 1.5 billion without impacting revenues and his investment makes a lot more sense.
It’s a little more complicated than that: software internationalization, IT, ad sales, accounting, tax and regulatory compliance for a long list of countries, lobbying all those countries (many of which want to control what you are posting), HR.
Still if they haven’t had any layoffs in years, they are probably bloated.
No need for hr if automated.
Or in China.
Even better. Promote this guy!
No need for HR ever anywhere
HR has destroyed more companies...
It probably needs a few devs, still, but I'd think they mostly need sysadmins. Though I've heard that Musk is miserable to work for.
Media goes for the cheese, again.
https://nypost.com/2022/10/28/pranksters-posing-as-laid-off-twitter-employees-trick-media-outlets/
Hey, remember how we were told it was totally racist to suggest that Covid might have come from an incompetent weapons lab, because it obviously came from bats for sale at a fish market??
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33360216
"Based on the analysis of the publicly available information, it appears reasonable to conclude that the COVID-19 pandemic was, more likely than not, the result of a research-related incident."
Remember how many serious researchers got temporary Twitter and Facebook bans because saying so conflicted with political narratives?
This is why the "muh private company" lie was so obvious and dangerous.
Good times.
Good Times?! Personally I feel hassled and hustled!
In the last few days we've gotten "OK, yeah, Covid is probably man-made" and "OK, yeah, man-made global warming probably isn't going to actually destroy the world". I wonder what the third big reveal is going to be.
"OK, yeah, we stole the 2020 election", perhaps? Well, probably not. 😉
Hmm, how about "The vaccine will turn you all into eager WEF serfs with a craving for bugs"?
Oh! That's right, I'd forgotten about "The Jab doesn't actually stop transmission"
Yeah that was the first one. But there’s no reason it has to stop at three.
JFree is still right. Just ask him.
The only guy who could tell the truth was Jon Stewart.
Isn't it more racist to blame Chinese people for the weird food they eat and how they serve it?
And did people really believe it was a total coincidence that the worst viral outbreak in 100 years originated in a city with a lab that studies that virus?
They studied “that virus”, literally? Or do you mean they studied somewhat related viruses?
Oh for fuck's sake, Mike. Being willfully obtuse is no different than trolling.
Not factually accurate.
Sometimes trolls are entertaining.
Mike makes laughing at retards cool again.
Laughing at democrats has always been cool.
One of the best articles on the Wuhan lab. Well worth reading.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/02/09/1044985/shi-zhengli-covid-lab-leak-wuhan/
It’s curious, if the lab already had samples of SARS-CoV-2, they had to get a sample from an infected person after the pandemic had started. I guess that was for show to cover up their having unleashed the virus in the first place?
How is a 7 month old article the best resource on this? Nothing else has happened?
Any lab working on corona viruses would have wanted to obtain samples from infected humans for research.
Additionally…
If it was an accidental release, they would have wanted it to determine whether they were actually responsible.
If it was a deliberate release, they would have wanted to determine how the virus was mutations in the wild.
Does that answer your question?
Please, tell us you don't understand how academic science works.
I never realized censoring public discourse and lying about research was supposed to be a part of it.
Amazing.
Reason Rundown
The cathedral mobilizes against a threat.
Tesla is under federal investigation over autopilot claims
I still hope that Dr. Evil has a secret scheme where his Starlink satellites start shooting lasers if the government gets uppity.
Tesla does need to fix its shit regarding identifying motorcycles. There is evidence they fail completely and cause many accidents to riders.
So do human drivers.
Very true. Got side swiped first year of riding. Had to dump the bike.
Reason Rundown
Black Voters Are Shifting Right and the Left Is Losing It
Racism becomes okay again in 3, 2, 1...
Don't be silly. They've always been racist.
When the slaves revolt, you do what you gotta do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0iAcQVIokg
No way. Black bodies will continue to do what rich white Democrats command — line up and vote (D) 90% of the time.
I thought that was 110% of the time, at least in Chicago.
Are they still slaves after they die?
The dead do vote in Chicago. It is known.
"If we get this through we'll have those niggers voting Democrat for the next 100 years"
Lbj 1964
We are 40 years from 100 years, and already the tide is turning
Reason Rundown
Elon Musk Sent Tesla Engineers to Review Twitter Code
Just like the Nazis marching into Paris.
But with more whine.
Reason Rundown
The Pelosi attack is getting weirder.
What the hell? The guy in the underwear with a hammer was a friend?
Friends dropping by in their underwear? Just another day in a progressive neighborhood.
He also has BLM and pride flags at his home. Voted and campaigned for far left people like Bernie and Boudin.
The left is claiming he is a qanon member despite all their evidence having been "removed" from websites.
Also the speaker residence has full time security including cameras even when she is not there. They have staff. The whole story makes no sense.
The Capitol Police provide constant security for all the House Speakers residences. Even when they aren't there.
I'm calling it now, this was some sort of sex or drug interaction between Paul and his attacker, gone awry.
Paul's quickly becoming Nancy's version of Hunter.
You'd have to be cooked up to be with her even just on weekends.
Threadwinner.
How long before there's a laptop that's Russian disinformation.
Let's not forget Mr. Nancy's DWI excursion that wrecked his new Porsche. Can Hunter do that?
I think Hunter may say one day, "hold my crack pipe".
*sex AND drug
To quote the exploited lyric it was "sex and violence"... Dang I can't remember the rest of the lyrics to that song...
But I read that he was a MAGA nut.
Last night the AP reported that this guy had posted racist and QAnon content on his social media accounts. Has that gone away already?
It is currently being air-brushed out by the wingnut media. They cover for their own.
Remember, if someone mentions the hundreds of right wing murders always counter with JAMES HODGKINSON !!!! who almost killed a GOP Congressman.
The story is currently being air-brushed out by the establishment media. They cover for their own.
A week from now Shrike and White Mike will be complaining that the Pelosi's deserve privacy, and that we're all being salacious.
No, I was just reading a story with all that stuff this morning. He was also a nudism activist and macrame artist, which scores him hippy dippy liberal points.
Yeah, this one has the nudist stuff, but still has the racist/pro-Trump/QAnon stuff too…
https://ktla.com/news/california/ap-suspect-in-assault-at-pelosi-home-had-posted-about-qanon/
It also seems to suggest that the fellow has a tendency to ramble in his comments. THAT one I can definitely believe…
I still don't know what Qanon is, other than the media will do 7000 word articles on them when *checks notes* five of them show up to see of John F Kennedy returns to a spot in Dallas and that it's somehow associated with Trump.
I really don’t know what it is either. From what I gather, nothing’s really been heard from anyone purported to represent QAnon since late 2020. I’ve never even seen an actual quote from them (if I’m not misgendering).
The last article I saw had a guy on a dark street corner in Dallas standing in what I believe was a circle of tea lights and, according to the headline was "waiting for John F. Kennedy to make an appearance". I scanned the subhed and I think there were like 5 or 10 of them that showed up. Oh, this was a front page, above the fold article if I recall correctly.
Check out Queen Romana Didulo, The Queen of Canada and tomorrow The World (just ask her.)
https://queenromanadidulo.ca/
The last name vaguely sounds like Dildolo, so I'm sure that will stoke much pruient interest to the unitiated (though goodness knows, she does nothing for me.)
I still don’t know what Qanon is
You, who is so wise in the ways of lesbians don’t know who QAnon is?
Quit bullshitting
QAnon = Trump loving nutjobs who believe liberals are “globalist baby-eating NWO pedophiles”.
IOW – about 1/2 the H&R posters.
You, who is so wise in the ways of lesbians don’t know who QAnon is?
I don't know how these are related, but I have to admit I'm intrigued.
“globalist baby-eating NWO pedophiles”.
So it's about the World Economic Forum and Jeffrey Epstein and the Clintons? Kay. Where's the conspiracy theory in that?
It’s no coincidence that SPB repeatedly demonizes the group that claims there’s a bunch of pedos among the elite.
I get it. It's funny because sbp links to child porn. O wait that's not funny at all
I guess a good place to start if you are still not sure what some thing is is to read the Wikipedia page on it, then go from there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon
Hahahahahahahaha
There is no such thing as Wikipedia being a good source on anything that is remotely political.
OK, fine. Then Diane/Paul might try accessing the “compendium of human knowledge in a 2.7 ounce phone that replaces 57 pounds of items from just 10 years ago.” (see comment below)
I’m sure she/he can do this!
I still don’t know what Qanon is
You mean, your extensive list of Youtube "truth tellers" haven't been honest with you about what Qanon is? Really? I find that shocking.
C’mon, Man! You’re only one of the billions of human beings who can access the compendium of human knowledge in a 2.7 ounce phone that replaces 57 pounds of items from just 10 years ago. I know you can do this.
that the fellow has a tendency to ramble in his comments.
So, sqrlsy is the guy?
You calling sqrlsy a nut job?
Don’t think he’d be offended by that.
With a shit-eating grin, perhaps?
Shellenberger did a pretty complete profile on his Substack today. DePape seems more retard and addict, but certainly found his habitat in a freak home in Berkeley, with lots of hippie and leftist crap. Nothing even near MAGA.
It can’t be. Not because of what I’m reading, but because of what I’m not reading. My local bluer-than-blue-found-in-nature blue newspaper had a quiet story headline way down in the sidebar, mentioning nothing about ideology. If there was a whiff of ‘trump’ about him, it would be front page news.
I’m waiting for Sevo to tell us about the SD Chronicle
Ah, but here’s MY local bluer than blue, the San Jose Mercury News:
“Any journalist who says there’s no evidence of election fraud, he (the attacker)wrote in September, “should be dragged straight out into the street and shot.”
https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/10/28/wheres-nancy-how-the-chilling-attack-on-pelosis-husband-echoed-jan-6-insurrection-on-capitol-hill
And this nugget:
In October, he called the Holocaust “this iddy biddy little genocide.”
HERR MISEK, JE T’ACCUSE!
Whenever a journalist says "this has echoes of ________________" they're to be aggressively ignored.
What if it’s echos of dog whistles?
There’s a much higher than non-zero possibility that Sevo _is_ Pelosi’s attacker.
Cite?
Pro trump? One of his posts was the drink bleach shit to attack trump.
This one just now popped up as a news alert on my phone
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/california/story/2022-10-28/suspect-in-assault-at-pelosi-home-had-posted-about-qanon
Soviet Union Tribune is owned by the LA Times these days. So, yeah, of course they're going to try that. The same but ran in the AP too.
Still don't know why the dude posting about qanon means regarding .. well, anything. But I did just do a quick scan and he lived with a nudist activist who ran a 9/11 conspiracy talk show in the '00s. Somehow I'm not thinking his whackadoodle tendencies came from Trump.
Re: San Diego Union…REALLY gone downhill since my college days down there! Enough to make me actually miss Helen Copley!
Progressives “post about qanon” all the time. Just look upthread.
All the sites they were citing removed the content before the reporting went out to verify.
What means "verify"?
A lot of the postings they are currently posting are no longer available along with other posts he made. It seems selective posts were grabbed then the sites deleted.
"Voted and campaigned for far left people like Bernie and Boudin."
Which is a pretty god trick. When you are a Canadian citizen.
If he had been in jail for DWI, like he should have been, this never would have happened.
Jail? In San Francisco? That's only for crimes of oppression and sedition.
Psssst! In California it’s a DUI.
Then totes OK, right? (At least for the privileged classes)
Drink-Wink-Nudge Judge?
You make it sound like we’re living in a Banana Republic here in California…Hey wait…oh DAMN!!
There are three things that bother me about this:
A) It's a disgusting, and bizarre, attack. I might not like Pelosi, but a physical assault of a family member is not warranted and never should be.
B) It's gone full partisan instantly, which is odd since the attacker seems like a full-bore nutjob with nutjob politics.
C) People seem more upset about this than they did about Republican's being shot at a baseball game.
Or zeldin being assaulted. Or an 18byear old kid getting run over. So on and so on.
Since it's so close to the mid-terms it's also probably the perfect time to use a tragedy to drive elections, which is both disgusting and sadly predictable.
Yeah, I don't get trying to diagnose this guy politically. He claimed he spoke with angels on a daily basis. Complete nudist weirdo who participated in gay nude weddings, couldn't talk to people, couldn't make eye contact. Seems like he might have been a functioning schizophrenic who slipped off his meds.
Claiming that this violence is representative of anything when it's clearly a person with abnormal functionality is pointless. Insane people aren't the rank-and-file, and the rank-and-file members of any political movement aren't responsible for which people get attacked by actual schizoids.
Indeed, most of the people who seem to commit this type of violence are crazy. Normal sane people don't attack family members of politicians or shoot up a baseball game.
He sounds like a senate candidate for PA.
C) It just happened. The baseball attack was over five years ago.
Kennedy was shot in the 60’s, nobody cares anymore.
Well he was crazy and said he was a friend. I don't know if you should take the crazy man at his word.
I, for one, am very concerned that left wing extremists will use this attack to recruit terrorists.
I guess they might be able to recruit radical leftists using a rich white guy’s getting attacked.
Reason Rundown
The freshest, juiciest Elon Twitter memes
Try them with the schadenfreude. Delicious.
On Friday night, he tweeted, “Comedy is now legal on Twitter.”
Zealots and puritans have a sad.
Funny photoshop of Trump and Musk laughing in a car in a drive thru getting served drinks by the former ceo of Twitter.
Comedy gold. The progressive tears are so delicious. Let's hope this is just the first course. The main course will be coming very soon!
Any of you could invite homeless people to live with you. Why haven’t you? Why aren’t you inviting homeless people to hang out by your front door? You must be cruel, cruel people.
Or you just want them fed and housed near someone else’s home. Because you know it would become your problem if it was near your house.
—-
Unemployment is very low and lots of businesses are looking for workers. An able-bodied homeless person who wants back into society can get a job and stop being a burden on everyone. Stop enabling them to stay as they are.
How dare you! Demanding that people act to control and support themselves? Fascist!
Sounds terrible, but it’s the same reason we discourage people from feeding wild animals.
What if we feed homeless people to wild animals?
Now here is guy who can think out of the box!
Will be curious to see if the case from Bullhead City posted yesterday goes to the 9th circuit. Will we see a circuit split there? If so, these cases seem awfully similar and maybe it would push it to the SC.
Reason Rundown
Pranksters posing as laid-off Twitter employees trick media outlets
That sounds like 4Chan work... 😀
Good thing reporters have advanced investigation skills and are skeptical of information that seems too good to be true.
Yep.
They always cite two or more named, verifiable, sources, and confirm all quotes.
"....potentially hazardous foods...."
What kind of food is NOT "potentially" hazardous? Asking for a friend who ate at Chipotle.
Food contains chemical compounds, which are known to the State of California to cause cancer.
Back when I was a tobacco user I didn't worry so much about cancer because the warning said I'd only get it if I was in California.
And everything that exists is chemicals, so, as Joe Jackson observes, "Everything Gives You Cancer":
https://youtu.be/1oDAkmfoAgA
Ugh, Mexican food for yuppies.
I’m not sure Chipotle qualifies as Mexican. It’s like an upscale Taco Bell.
Unsurprised.
Any food is hazardous if stuck in the windpipe, is hot enough, is going at sufficient velocity, or all of the above.
Well, a government that bans sharing food with people is inherently evil. But I don't see how a local ordinance governing things that a local government has the power to govern could be unconstitutional, so the ruling seems correct (but not for the reasons given). A balogna sandwich doesn't talk, so it's hard to see how the First Amendment applies, or how it would be a federal case. Maybe if they had written bible verses on the sandwiches they would have won.
The first amendment only applies depending on if money changes hands.
What if my toaster prints "BLM" on the bread?
Sevo hasn't posted here since some QAnon MAGA weirdo attacked the Pelosi home and was arrested.
Sevo = Daivid DePape?
Was this guy on the radar of your highly-placed intel sources? You know, the ones who tipped you off days in advance of the SECOND INSURRECTION BY RIGHTWING EXTREMISTS on 9 / 18 / 21?
#9/18WasWorseThan9/11
Does Sevo make anti-Semitic rants? I've had him on mute so long I don't remember.
Some of these far-right anti-Semites are part Jewish like Michael Savage (who changed his name). Hitler was purportedly 1/4 Jewish.
Most of Sevo's posting was just cut'and'paste bullshit so it is hard to discern. But he did claim to live in SF.
San Fran Sicko...
Yeah, but, as we discussed the other day, Michael Savage is really a performance artist. He must be.
Unlike the other conservative crazies, Savage (Weiner) is highly educated - a Ph.D from Berkeley.
I found him entertaining. He didn't drip with the base level stupidity of Fat Rush or Hannity.
Now that Savage, Rush, Bill-O, and Glenn Beck are off the major airwaves are we seeing the demise of wingnut radio?
I mean, they won't get a black Democratic president again.
Maybe the GOP will nominate Herschel but Dems don't have a black guy with any appeal.
1990-COVID - the Golden Age of Wingnut Radio.
"I mean, they won’t get a black Democratic president again."
Writing off Kamala Harris' chances? Don't tell me you buy that wingnut.com narrative that she's a blatant affirmative action hire unworthy of the top of the ticket.
#Harris2028
What? Kam-Kam was so unpopular among Democrats she couldn't crack the top five before the Low Country SC pre-primary polls.
Democrats won't nominate a "progressive" anyway. Bernie hit the high-water mark at 35% in both the last cycles.
A Bill Clinton clone would mop the floor against any wingnut - but Dem primary voters can't find the best centrist in a crowded primary.
Democrats probably lost a Senate seat in PA by not going with Conor Lamb.
SPB doesn’t like blacks.
Herschel Walker 2024!
Anyone else notice how all the gray boxes cluster together? Coincidence I'm sure.
Awesome post.
Looks to me that right-wing punditry has moved to Internet videos, and more and more AM stations are switching to Spanish language formats.
Cite?
It is amazing how much right wing content he says he knows about yet can only create strawman arguments of their content.
Big accusations from a guy who gets his paycheck from one of the world's last living Nazi party members.
Do you think Soros stays alive with some elixir invented by Mengele?
For whatever his faults might be, Sevo does not make anti-semitic rants.
He also goes after Herr Misek, who does!
I've never seen Chemjeff, White Mike, Buttplug or sarcasmic call out Misek like Sevo does.
In fact the only lefty I've seen get into it with the actual Nazi here is Sqrlsy.
I’ll give Sqrlsy credit for that, even if the rant can be a bit incoherent. He does call Misek out on his shit.
"So-and-so didn't do this-or-that! That means whatever I make up is true!"
This is what passes for a persuasive and logical argument among the conservatives on this board.
Pathetic.
I was wondering about that…
The fact that this guy was Paul Pelosi's rent boy/dealer and was invited in would make you a more likely suspect, Mike.
It’s funny how quickly they all go into “somebody posts things I don’t like on a website so they could possibly be this crazy asshole” when somebody attacks a Democrat.
This analysis somewhat misses the point between a public policy dispute and a constitutional one.
As a matter of policy, I might support a more liberal/libertarian attitude towards handing out food and allowing the homeless to simply take their chances on getting sick. Although I note that, as always, the homeless are imposing their costs on the rest of us and will receive world class medical care for free then walk out on the tab. The distinctions in the statute seem ill-founded for the reasons described. These are all great points to make to officials and local voters.
But the Constitution is silent on this topic. The notion that the First Amendment is a license to ignore local regulation on food distribution is absurd. If taken seriously, then the era of food regulation is over; my religion says I'm serving this room temperature meat and the city can't do a thing about it. Not every dispute is a constitutional dispute, nor is questionable public policy ipso facto unconstitutional. Would-be do-gooders are just going to have to win the old fashioned way, at the ballot box.
Indeed, since in US constitutional law the general police power of the states is the same power whether it is used to ban handing out sandwiches or to ban murder, any First Amendment "expression" or "religious" exemption allowing these people to hand out sandwiches would apply, mutatis mutandis to letting people commit homicides in the name of expression or religion.
Oh, and by the way, this article fits neatly into mainline libertarianism's increasingly vocal desire to apply laws arbitrarily.
If this particular law or set of regulatory strictures are not enforced, then I would argue that every restaurant currently operating has a good case to have permits and food inspections and all related regulations overturned immediately.
“mainline libertarianism” is who? Reason? The Mises Caucus? Cato?
Seeing as how the MC has the majority of seats...
It's strange how fringe left-wing extremists like Mike think that they're somehow middle-of-the-road libertarian, and that the party and people have been hijacked by the right.
When you’re a left-libertarian, it’s easy to see boogeymen in every right angle.
If taken seriously, then the era of food regulation is over
This is exactly the right analysis here. As I intimate below... we're either going to regulate the distribution and/or sale of prepared food to the public, or we're not. Pick your poison... figuratively and literally.
And why should religion be the only one to get a pass on regulation?
If you’re going to repeal a regulation, do it for every citizen, not for “sincerely-held religious belief.”
If you think about it it's practically illegal to be poor unless you're 100% dependent upon the government. If you can't afford a home that's up to code, you can't have a home. If you can only afford a room at a boarding house, good luck finding one they've been zoned out of existence. If your car can't pass inspection you can't have a car. If someone offers charity they need to look over their shoulder because they're committing a crime.
However if you completely submit to some government social worker, get rid of all your assets, refuse employment, and give them total control over your life, then you can live somewhat comfortably. But only on the government dime.
There’s a bit of irony here too. People can’t legally feed the homeless unless they comply with rules intended to help the homeless. These are the same rules that prevent people from starting businesses, which is funny because many businesses that exist today would never have started if those rules were in place at the time. There’s a hugely successful restaurant down the way that started as a literal wooden shack on the side of the road. Good luck doing that today. My point is that many of these homeless people could probably lift themselves up by their bootstraps, but they’re being stopped by the same government busybodies that won’t allow people to share food.
Truth
It is not illegal to be poor. But if we pass laws against sleeping in parks and bus stations, the laws apply to everyone. And I question the constitutional challenges to laws against panhandling and other forms of public nuisance.
Of course, one solution to dealing with "undesirable" behavior in public places is to live entirely on private property, with homes, stores, offices, streets, parks, etc.
You want to feed hobos? Do it at home.
But if we pass laws against sleeping in parks and bus stations, the laws apply to everyone.
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”
Copy/pasting that quote is very popular, but what's the alternative? If you let anybody steal bread and just say "I'm poor" by way of justification, then you've destroyed the incentive to create bread because every last loaf will be stolen by someone claiming poverty. Soon we all starve.
I’m not sure how showing mercy to those so poor they are starving inevitably leads to “every last loaf” being stolen.
That's not what the quote is about, it's a complaint about criminalizing the stealing of bread by "the poor." We're already far past the point where starvation is obsolete in the USA, the "poor" are as overweight and obese as everybody else. So of course prohibitions of general applicability, such as stealing food, apply to them too. So we already did the mercy part and have an incredibly generous social safety net. We should also do the justice part. If we don't, then grifters take it all and cry poverty.
“criminalizing the stealing of bread by ‘the poor.’”
The flip side of which would be showing those who are so poor they are starving some mercy.
Then you're down the regime of no bread. Your actions have consequences, if there's a class that can steal bread with no repercussion on account of your mercy, all the bread is gone. There's no longer a reason for anybody to make more bread for sale, it will just be stolen, so therefore nobody makes bread except for their own personal use. Everybody not in the bread making business now has no bread. What you call mercy is nothing more than condemning millions to starve, ultimately including the bread thieves you were trying to protect in the first place. We don't criminalize stealing bread out of spite, we do it because if we don't there's no bread to steal in the first place.
There are no people on the US who are so poor that they are starving.
Enabling a drug addict’s life style is not “showing mercy”.
“For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.“
Okay but it's nearly impossible to be this poor unless you're severely defective or just not trying. If we lived in a libertarian society then I'd be amenable to letting them do whatever we want.
We don't, these people are a burden on the government and we pay all their bills. Given that reality, we have a serious interest in at minimum keeping the tab down. I might disagree with this or that legislation, but the principle that those are 100% dependent on the government are subject to its regulation is solid. If they don't want the government bothering them, then what are they even doing in a city? Go to the woods and be self-sufficient. It's a big, largely empty country realistically nobody will bother you.
Oh, for fuck's sake, just because a law is stupid does not magically make it unconstitutional. Is Reason really unable to find non-nitwits to write for it?
Never mind. Comment withdrawn. Thank goodness for the new edit button.
Demanding skills is racist!
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Sevo gone, bro.
Yeah, that comment’s going to age well.
10 days baby. Just 10 days until all the Welchie Boys, the Woppos, the MacAdoodles, the lipstick lesbians, and the Mingo-Mango-Mongoes are all going to be crying like the little bitches that they are.
You're so right, Mickey.
The Red Wave is a comin' in, boys.
Then a Blue Wave a few years later.
It's almost like BOTH PARTIES SUCK, dude. They just keep waving back and forth.
But remember 2016 when Republicans won everything? Before your Fatass Donnie lost it all? Sweet times!
Yeah but right now the Democrats are on point trying to bullshit the country, ruin the economy, and control our lives. Anything that impedes them and causes them grief is to be savored.
Man the democrats must be doing a really shit job if the demfag is trying to pull a “both sides!”.
Sweet times when the LP's Gary flipped 13 states. Didn't take long for Kleptocracy infiltrators posing as shellshocked fodder, street people, communist anarchists and morons to add planks to make sure THAT doesn't happen again.
I'll bet there are a lot of restaurants operating in St. Louis that would like to have the serving of food to the public declared "expressive activity" and therefore be covered under the first amendment.
Well, if they are giving it away - - - - - - - -
You’re right. If restaurants are regulated, all those church potlucks should be regulated, too.
Stupid take.
In fact, church potlucks are regulated. And that’s despite being on private property.
Wikipedia does a nice job summarizing QAnon:
Followers of the conspiracy theory say that the Trump administration secretly fought the cabal of pedophiles, and would conduct mass arrests and executions of thousands of cabal members on a day known as "the Storm" or "the Event".[11] QAnon supporters have named Democratic politicians, Hollywood actors, high-ranking government officials, business tycoons, and medical experts as members of the cabal.[12] QAnon has also claimed that Trump stimulated the conspiracy of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election to enlist Robert Mueller to join him in exposing the sex trafficking ring, and to prevent a coup d'état by Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and George Soros.[13][14] QAnon is described as antisemitic or rooted in antisemitic tropes, due to its fixation on Jewish financier George Soros and conspiracy theories about the Rothschild family, a frequent target of antisemites.[15][16] Many also consider it antisemitic due to its strong resemblance to the antisemitic blood libel, the myth that Jews harvest the blood of children for ritual purposes.
Obviously the crazy is thick here. Look at all the code words.
People believe this shit. By "people" I mean wingnuts.
The only for certain pedophile around here in these parts is you.
So QAnon is all about opposing SPB2? Maybe I'm the king of QAnon then.
Eh, better than communists.
QAnon is a 4chan meme adopted by the New York Times and WaPo to frighten Blue Checks and Wine Moms. Shrike may as well be quoting the wiki article on unicorns.
You’re the only known pedophile here, fucktard.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-29/musk-s-twitter-roils-with-hate-speech-as-trolls-test-new-limits
Not many examples of hate, mostly Covid
“You’re either a boy or a girl”: HATE SPEEXH FLOODZ TWITTER1!1!1!1!1!1!!1
I seen a lot of variations on "Men can't give birth" today.
False flags by progressives.
Nice post
OT: Anyone in these comments watch any of the trial of the Waukesha Parade driver? I caught a good bit of it-the dude went full-on sovereign citizen. It was an utter shitshow.
And Jesus Christ, he's such a horrible waste of oxygen. It's shocking someone so useless and harmful to society in general has somehow managed to live this long. It's a sign of just how accepting our world is that we tolerate people like him continuing to exist.
He's Guilty! I've been trying to tell everyone for 4 damn days!
Great! for once, the SUV is Not Guilty! ??
Darrell Brooks found guilty in Waukesha Christmas Parade attacks
https://www.jsonline.com/story/communities/waukesha/news/waukesha/2022/10/26/darrell-brooks-found-guilty-in-waukesha-christmas-parade-attacks/69580247007/
‘My conscience is clear’: Waukesha killer Darrell Brooks says it was ‘God’s will’ that massacre happened
During the closing argument, Darrell Brooks, 40, said that he never asked himself if ‘this’ was intentional because he knows it wasn’t
https://meaww.com/waukesha-parade-killer-darrell-brooks-says-it-was-gods-will-massacre-happened-closing-argument
Fuck Darrell Brooks! With a rusted gear shift!
Great! for once, the SUV is Not Guilty! ??
It was a Ford Escape. That fucker was guilty of something, even if it wasn't responsible for killing parade goers. Pretty sure that vehicle is getting the death penalty anyway, and well deserved.
Fords are already Found On Road Dead. They come back to Living Dead when they are Fixed Or Repaired Daily. 🙂
Unfortunately, right wing extremists will be emboldened by this “victory”.
the dude went full-on sovereign citizen. It was an utter shitshow.
So he's a radical libertarian then? What exactly is wrong about 'sovereign citizen'?
It’s a sign of just how accepting our world is that we tolerate people like him continuing to exist.
Absolutely. People with radical ideas should be shot on sight lest they waste too much oxygen. Isn't that right?
Do you even know what a sovereign citizen is? Did you watch the trial to get a slight glimpse of what this looks like?
And I’m not saying he should be killed for his weird legal views, but because he’s a miserable piece of shit human being. He’s abusive, beats up his ex-girlfriends (the first of which is the mother of his child, and he’s basically her former pimp who has been abusive to her since he impregnated her at age 15 or 16). Plus he has never held a job at all and has lived off of government entitlement all his life, which he’s used to assault people, mostly women, but also shooting at his own family. And then, yes, running over 68 people at a parade, killing six, one of whom was an 8 year old boy.
I don’t think it’s even remotely unreasonable for me to say that this is a person who deserves death.
So what exactly is wrong about being a 'sovereign citizen'? Go ahead, spell it out for us libertarians what is so horrible about it.
"It's people who don't want to pay taxes"? Well no shit. Have you heard of the phrase "taxation is theft"?
Sovereign citizens believe states don't exist, and that all law functional like civil court, where there has to be a plaintiff to bring charges. That means, in his weirded out mind, you could never prosecute a murder because the injured party can't appear in court to bring charges.
The very reason we have a state and allow them to enforce laws is to protect individuals. The whole system is in place to prevent mobs from forming to kill people they don't like in an extrajudicial manner. And it has to be open, clear, and follow certain procedures in order to be fair to individuals. Does it always work? Of course not, there's an enormous amount of power the state can bring to bear against individuals. But that's why we have courts of appeal, that's why we have a ton of evidentiary rules and procedures. Plus, you WANT the state to be able to functionally prosecute criminals because if people think there's no accountability for criminal activity, they take the law into their own hands. You want murderers to actually go away or even face the death penalty in cases where the evidence is clear or overwhelming, so that people respect the process. If not, they take the law into their own hands and stop respecting rights.
He thinks he can lie and claim he doesn't understand in an attempt to interminably stall out proceedings by being annoying. Unfortunately, one person cannot bring the whole system to a halt by himself because the court system does not have unlimited resources. There's definitely a balance that needs to be struck. He thinks he can just say, "I do not consent," and somehow that moots the whole process of prosecution. But that doesn't make sense-nobody would consent to being prosecuted for their crimes. Consent doesn't matter when you've actually violated other people's rights, you end up forfeiting your own rights.
Sovereign citizens have weird ideas that, because your name appears in all capital letters on many government documents, that's some type of weird government entity that doesn't actually represent you. It's done for clarity and is a meaningless distinction. I am who I am whether my name is spelled with proper capitalization, all caps, or all lower case. I can even change my name or my gender, but that doesn't mean I'm no longer the person who had that name. It's meaningless attempts to be obstinate and annoying for the sake of pissing everyone off. He even went so far as to claim his name wasn't a person but was a Trust. He claimed he was a third-party intervener for his client, the Defendant, when he was the defendant. He claimed that the court's law was invalid because it goes against God's laws. He claimed he wasn't able to face his accusers, even though the state brought every single witness against him necessary to prove his case and he was allowed to cross-examine every single one of them. He wanted to call the judge to the stand and also the state of Wisconsin, despite neither of those being relevant elements to the fact that he fucking plowed over 68 people.
You clearly don't understand what sovereign citizens are because they're anarchists who still want to claim they're protected by the constitution but aren't held accountable to the legal system. That's bullshit, of course-by being in a jurisdiction over the age of 18, you're implicitly consenting to be held to that system of laws. If you do not consent to those laws, you can and should leave and go somewhere else where you find the laws more agreeable. You can argue a law is unjust or unconstitutional, but I don't think you're going to find many localities where you can just commit murder on a Sunday whim.
Also, Jeff, eat a bag of 68 dicks.
That means, in his weirded out mind, you could never prosecute a murder because the injured party can’t appear in court to bring charges.
Oh fuck you. Darrell Brooks doesn't define what a 'sovereign citizen' is. A sovereign citizen is basically the anarcho-capitalist ideal: the family members/heirs of a victim of murder would have standing to sue the murderer in court to recover damages. There are absolutely weirdos and nutcases among sovereign citizens. That doesn't mean the weirdos and nutcases define the entirety of the ideal. Unless you want to claim that Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert define all Republicans, do you?
You cherry pick stupid examples such as capitalization on forms to slander the entire idea. That is dishonest on your part.
If you were an actual libertarian and not just another right-winger you would be sympathetic to the idea that citizens are sovereign and are in control of their own destiny. And you would not let a mass murderer define the movement for everyone.
Sovereign citizens are anarchists, yes. They are anarchists with the right idea - it is the individual that matters more than the collective. That you want to mock and condemn them rather than to understand them says more about you than it does about them.
You didn't know what "sovereign citizen" meant, did you. You obviously just looked it up right now, and still don't quite get it.
The funniest part is, sovereign citizens are about as far away from your "Top Men" philosophy as is possible.
Basically, "The Sovereign Citizen Movement" is different from Libertarianism because the Libertarian idea of Individual Sovereignty means the equal responsibility to respect the equal Individual Sovereignty of others.
By contrast, "The Sovereign Citizen Movement" is "The Divine Right Of Kings" for trailer trash and hood-rat thugs.
Look, I don't want to get deeply into your folie-a-deux, and I have nothing to say about "sovereign citizens". I don't care.
But your particular point about the state existing so that there is a plaintiff because a murder victim can't bring civil charges is utter bullshit. Not only are there perfectly good libertarian answers to this issue, for most of human history, legal systems operated that way and did so perfectly well.
Yes, in our system, and in many systems, the estate and family members can bring civil claims against the accused murderer. The estate of Nicole Simpson sued OJ successfully. The problem is that Sov-Cits only seem to acknowledge a Civil system. Which brings into question who is adjudicating the trial or hearing if there is not stat to serve as an arbiter. Perhaps there's some interesting questions we can have about how to create a system without a state, but you're still left with the issue that some people will not recognize that authority.
Moreover, there's the inadequacy of only having Civil remedies. Someone like Darrell Brooks would be basically immune from accountability because he has no assets. He couldn't afford a lawyer, he couldn't even afford to post the $1000 bail he was out on at the time, he had to borrow that from his mother. His mother owned the vehicle he used. He has nothing, so there's no way for his victim's families to be made whole. Murderers should never be judgment-proof.
The point of having a criminal justice system is that people do want something punitive to happen to bad people. The punishment is incentive not to do that, to know that society is going to visit consequences upon you for violating the rights of others. For the vast majority of human history, we have NOT had a legal system that was equitable in dealing with this. It was eye-for-an-eye. People took justice in their own hands and the accused had no rights, so a lot of people were unjustly killed for the crimes of others. The status of the accused and accuser often played a huge role because a peasant had much less credibility in the court compared to a noble, and nobles had rights that peasants didn't have anyway. And the way to get justice was to appeal to your lord directly anyway, so if he's the one committing the assault, there's no means of relief. It took thousands of years of advances to get to the legal system we have, and it's still not solved, but it's far better than what the vast majority of human history had.
Purely libertarian societies are based on voluntary association. If you don't recognize the rules or authority of a community you are part of, that community will simply respond in kind. The consequence is that you lose your property interests and the protection of that community. Purely voluntary on both sides.
If found guilty by his peers, the voluntary associations Darrell Brooks was part of would kick him out, a purely private and libertarian solution. Traditionally, that status was called "outlaw". As a result, anybody who wanted to could kill him without consequences, effectively amounting to a death penalty. That seems like accountability enough to me.
“taxation is theft”
I’ve always hated this.
But feel free to defend Darrell Brooks, I'm sure he was just an innocent lost soul who was completely the victim of a stuck accelerator. Tell me about how he's a poor boy whom the system has always been unfair to and that's why he doesn't care about running over the 12-year-olds in the junior dance team. Tell me about how his girlfriend deserved to get slapped for failing to show up and pay his bail.
You're such a contrarian asshole that me pointing out that a mass murderer is a piece of shit makes you come in here and say, "Well, let's hold on a second here."
I'm not defending Darrell Brooks. I'm attacking you for blithely dismissing the idea that individuals are sovereign. Do you even understand the audience you are addressing? Do you even understand that this is not just an extension of the Breitbart comments?
You're such a dishonest prick.
*I'm* the dishonest one? So go ahead and tell all of us libertarians what is so horrible about the concept of citizens being sovereign, if you can. Please, tell us liberty-minded people why we are all wrong and we should just submit to the collective of social pressure to conform.
Here is what happened.
You don't like Darrell Brooks because he committed a horrible crime. Darrell Brooks tried to use a 'sovereign citizen' defense, unsuccessfully. And because you are mentally incapable of separating the idea of 'sovereign citizen' with your hatred of Darrell Brooks, you condemn both.
Team Blue views liberty in the context of utilitarianism. Liberty is desirable only if the benefits outweigh the costs. So they will defend free speech, but only if it is 'beneficial' speech. They will defend capitalism, but only if it is 'beneficial' capitalism. Etc.
Team Red views liberty in the context of morality. Liberty is a privilege that only the morally worthy deserve to possess. Scumbags don't deserve liberty, and it's borderline sedition to stick up for the liberty of scumbags.
Team Liberty, however, defends liberty for its own sake. Liberty is important even if it has no utilitarian purpose, and liberty is important even if immoral scumbags use it.
That is the difference here.
So which team are you on?
Taxation is theft. So what? I'm a libertarian and not an anarchist, so I believe some minimal amount of theft is necessary. I believe some minimal amount of restrictions on my rights are necessary. My right to swing my fist around is always going to end at someone else's nose. That's an equitable system, the balancing act of rights necessary for human existence.
I want government to be limited, small, and as local as possible, but I still want it to exist. I don't think we need government for roads or for schools or social programs or art museums, but we do need it to have a court system and some manner of military or common defense. We don't need federal reserves and Homeland Security and Park Services and the FCC but we do still need a system of laws that is functional and holding a public trust. We need to have a mechanism to allow people to file suit against individuals or entities with more money and more power than them and still have a fair hearing with an unbiased judge and jury.
Our legal system isn't perfect, but it's constantly changing and is operated by imperfect humans. I'm glad it exists, even if there's a lot of things I might tweak. It's still necessary to have a system if you want people to have rights.
I really didn't expect to get this angry this late on a Saturday but your mendacious sealioning is just off the charts. You talk out of your ass and don't know even what your own principles are because you exist to troll.
I’m a libertarian
no, you're a typical right-winger. I want a limited government as well. I am not an anarchist. But I am not going to condemn the people who think individuals are sovereign.
Fuck off now, Jeff.
1. He gave you a well reasoned, comprehensive response, and you can only sputter "conservative" in response.
2. It's obvious that you still don't understand what the SovCit movement is.
You're just baiting and trolling.
“ no, you’re a typical right-winger.”
This, combined with your previous post: How very collectivist of you.
True. And you are clearly not part of "Team Liberty" and never have been.
“While the city later agreed not to prosecute the pair, Redlich and Ohnimus sued anyways.”
Anyways? Doz any a youze Chief Editors gots an actual editor to do menial chores like proofreading?
It’s a blog post.
It’s a side activity of the print magazine.
Sloppiness is acceptable within normal parameters, except when Mike catches a spelling error.
This happened when they closed all the looney bins.
They used to isolate these nuts from normal society & zap their frontal lobe.
"They," Volksgenosse?
Of course; Cause Nazi's truly believe that the only 'charity' in existence is the 'charity' of Gov-GUNS robbing those icky people.
It's like watching a disappointed armed robber when someone hands over some cash before they can pull their gun out and make threats... "You can't do that!!!" 🙂
Today in libertarian commentary.
Take notes, Reason, take notes. This is how it's done.
Yes, let's note that he has taken great pains to tell the world that Twitter will NOT be a free-for-all where the racists and Nazis get equal say, and that there is going to be this "Council of Censors" or whatever he calls it to review tweets.
Here is what is going to happen:
He will bring Trump back on to Twitter (who may or may not accept the offer, who knows).
He will continue to censor the right-wing trolls who are particularly offensive.
He will censor left-wing trolls more aggressively.
And the entire affair will drop off completely from right-wing media because it will no longer align with their narrative of "Big Tech Libruls Oppressing Ordinary Conservatives in the Heartland".
So there will be exactly the same amount of censorship - if not more - occurring on Twitter, but it will never show up on your Youtube feed because they are lying to you and pushing narratives instead of informing you.
And you will walk away with the mistaken impression that Elon Musk has "restored" free speech to Twitter.
And right-wing politicians will try to take advantage of that somehow to try to get power for themselves.
So you're saying that he is finally going to ban progressives (=racists, Nazis)?
I doubt that. Reprehensible as those people are, they are a big demographic for advertisers.
what the fuck does this mean? progressives are the real racists?
racists are the real racists actually, and most of them are GOP/Conservative/Libertarian.
Let me be more blunt.
Your Youtube feed is lying to you, they lie primarily via omission, and you happily accept it because they are telling you lies that you want to hear.
You cannot trust what you are listening to, but you will continue to listen to it anyway because it makes you happy.
Fuck you're a piece of work.
Rather than address what Paul actually said and quoted, you're going to misrepresent it all as YouTube conspiracy theories.
It's not that you argue in bad faith, Jeff. It's that you are bad faith, arguing in a manner as natural for you as breathing.
Every day you give me new reasons to detest you.
It’s Jeff’s go to when he wants to write off someone. He did the same thing when Rogan was big in the news.
You should detest me. I proudly stand in the way of your collectivist social conservatism.
What an asshole. We can’t trust what we are listening to, but we are supposed to trust a proven liar such as yourself? Fuck off.
Ah! Don't the Donista comes one user closer to getting his wish....
Geeze, you’re a dipshit, chemtard. Did you even bother to read Paul’s link? Pretty good article summing up how the left is crying “fascism” so they themselves can continue to stifle debate and control the conversation. Where the fuck do you get your talking points? Media fucking Matters?
Oh I read the article. It was a dishonest bait-and-switch. Here is an example from the article:
No, the "shorter version" is dishonest. I'm not a fan of Max Boot but I understand the point he is making, and it's not that he is frightened of freedom. The concern here is that if social media is a complete free-for-all, it will make collective decision-making harder when it comes time to hold democratic elections. Because the online garbage, conspiracies and nonsense will overwhelm the truth and you will have large numbers of people believing in outright nonsense because they heard it on social media. And in the most extreme cases, people will act upon false information that they read and potentially harm or kill themselves or others.
Let me remind you that two people actually DID drink bleach because they believed Trump when he claimed that injecting bleach could cure COVID.
https://www.macon.com/news/coronavirus/article242356816.html
This is a real problem, and the authors of this Spiked piece could have decided to discuss the issue honestly, but instead they went for the 'red meat' angle and pander to their audience which just wants to hear people say mean things about their tribal enemies. This article ITSELF is part of the problem in how they chose to frame this discussion. And people like YOU, and Paul, are part of the problem when you reward the producers of this type of "news" with your attention and your clicks.
Tell us how “two weeks to flatten the curve” and “safe and effective “ wasn’t misinformation.
So you’re afraid of people actually having their ideas out there in the marketplace and not throttled by some censor? How retarded are you, Jeffy?
For the past 100 years, self-serving government propaganda has overwhelmed the truth. The American inventor of propaganda, E. O. Bernays, explained it quite clearly:
The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.
And if you think that the “true ruling power of our country” has your or my best interests at heart, you’re a bloody fool, in particular in light of all the revelations of lies, manipulation, and propaganda over the past several decades, since the Internet has become popular. Propaganda has dragged us into one war after another, perpetuated racial division and economic inequality, transferred trillions into the hands of the financial sector, advocated idiotic and destructive economic policies, made Americans fat and sick, and destroyed our education system, among many other things.
People like Max Boot are well paid for being part of this propaganda machinery, and the reason why he hates free speech and wants censorship is that it will put an end to his gravy train. And boot-licking fools like you will be swept away along with the people whose boots you lick.
If someone says "Aspirin may be good against headaches" and you down a bottle of industrial Aspirin, the problem is with you, not with the person making the statement.
Trump was speculating about the possible use of light or bleach as a component of some kind of antiviral treatment, and that's a perfectly reasonable speculation and there is research in those areas.
Furthermore, dilute bleach itself is used for wound disinfection, as a mouth rinse, and to sterilize drinking water when hiking. At the correct concentration, bleach is a safe and effective medical drug (though probably not useful against COVID in its liquid form).
“ it will make collective decision-making harder”
That’s a weird position to hold as a radical individualist.
“And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?”
That’s the actual thing that trump said. That’s not a claim, that’s a question. Anybody saying he told people to inject bleach is as stupid as that woman who tried to kill her husband with fish bowl cleaner.
Wasn't there some evidence that the story of the 'two people drinking bleach' was actually a case of a woman poisoning her husband intentionally?
The concern here is that if social media is a complete free-for-all, it will make collective decision-making harder when it comes time to hold democratic elections.
Someone wildly misunderstands the value of free information in how it makes collective decision-making better.
Do I need to link to all the old Reason articles on how the wisdom of crowds works? Or have we gone full Libertarianism Plus now?
Didn't Elon join the Positive Christian National Socialist Republican Party recently?
We built our own twitter. Don't be mad.
"Your Youtube feed is lying to you, they lie primarily via omission, and you happily accept it because they are telling you lies that you want to hear.
"You cannot trust what you are listening to, but you will continue to listen to it anyway because it makes you happy."
I think Jeff absolutely has a point here. Too many are brain-dead (not necessarily You!) and listen to what they want to hear. It's just human nature. Society is finding it too difficult to think for themselves, so they rely on what's fed to them.
Umm, the Reason Roundtable panel talk pretty much exactly like this writer. Same snark and everything.
Yeah, so? They aren’t doing journalism, as you say.
Article makes a decent argument that the laws should be more flexible and provide exceptions even if there might be a slight increase in chance of 'food poisoning' but provides no arguments that the law is unconstitutional. '...pro social...'? Really? That's an argument?
What? The National Socialist Anheuser Glucose Trust State that voted to Make Amerika Gestapo Again has chosen new neo-Jews to sacrifice like so many Pidgeons in The Park? What a surprise!
.
For some unknown reason, Reason Magazine gets a lot wrong. We have become a Nation of dumb asses to believe that the US Constitution delegated this authority to the Federal government!
They have no subject matter nor geographical jurisdiction! If they do then show me where in the Constitution this was done!
Yes this is a tyrannical illegitimate law BUT it is up to citizens in St. Louis to either change the law or nullify it through jury decisions.
~MFP
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So, you've given up The Culture War, transitioned, and joined The Global Economy? Wow! Do you still stay in touch with the crew from Crossfire? I hope you've learned a lesson from Ye! 😉
Oh wait, that’s Buchman, not Buchanan. Silly me! ?