New Poll Shows Cratering Support for Total Abortion Bans Among Republicans

New data from the Public Religion Research Institute show a dramatic decline in Republican support for making abortion illegal in all cases. How this will effect voter behavior remains to be seen.

Despite the increasing number of near-total abortion bans being enacted across the nation, it seems that support for absolutist anti-abortion policy has been cratering among American voters—and these bans only seem to be becoming more and more unpopular, especially among Republicans.

On Thursday, the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI), a nonprofit research group, released its findings from its 2022 American Values Survey, an opinion poll covering a wide range of topics and political attitudes. The 2022 survey showed a deepening of an already-existing trend—the decline in support for abortion being illegal in all circumstances. The data show the number of Americans who support banning abortion in all cases declined from 13 percent support in September 2020 to just 8 percent support in September 2022.

While the PRRI survey shows that anti-abortion absolutism has declined amongst Independents and Democrats since 2020, the shift pales in comparison to the decline in Republican support for the policy.

Based on a figure released by PRRI, Republican support for total abortion bans appears to have declined approximately 10 percentage points since 2020, with the speed of the decline in support only increasing over polling periods.

While PRRI has not published precise numbers for each year on the support for total abortion bans among different political groups, the figure it published with this year's survey appears to show a precipitous drop in support for total abortion bans among Republicans—especially after Roe v. Wade (1973) was overturned last June. This shift appears to indicate waning support for the kinds of absolutist anti-abortion laws now favored in many red state legislatures. 

We can't know for sure why support for total abortion bans is declining among Americans, but such a dramatic shift may be the result of a kind of buyer's remorse. In past years, many Republicans may have supported absolutist anti-abortion policies without sincerely believing that such policies could ever be enacted because of the protections of Roe v. Wade. But now that Roe is overturned and total abortion bans have become legal, some of their less popular effects have been on full display. Stories of women being denied medically necessary abortions have gained considerable public attention since Roe was overturned. And the story of a 10-year-old rape victim's inability to get an abortion in Ohio sparked national outrage in July.

However, the figure shows that the decline in Republican support for anti-abortion policies began in 2021, not June 2022. Thus, while post-Roe policy changes may account for the most dramatic decline in public opinion, it doesn't account for all of it.

We also don't know the possible impact this will have on voter behavior. According to PRRI, Republicans are less likely than Democrats (21 percent as opposed to 35 percent, respectively) to only vote for candidates that share their views on abortion. So, while this shift in opinion is certainly not good news for staunchly pro-life Republicans, it is likely not a cause for panic for the party as a whole. Though perhaps the dramatic decline in Republican support for total abortion bans may lead to more moderate anti-abortion legislation from the party.

Comments

[Pear Satirical]

"....show a dramatic decline in Republican support for making abortion illegal in all cases."

"....number of near-total abortion bans...."

One of these things is not like the other.

[SQRLSY One]

QUESTIONS THAT THE FANATICS WON’T EVER ANSWER: What do YOU think that the punishment should be for deliberately killing a fertilized human egg cell? Ditto the punishments for likewise killing a fertilized egg of an ape... A monkey... A rat... An insect... If your Righteous Punishments From on High are DIFFERENT in these cases, then WHY? WHERE do the differences come from? And what gives YOU (or the 51% of the voters) the right to punish the rest of us?

Never, ever, have I gotten any serious answers, when I pose these questions, about what the PUNISHMENTS should be! (Could it be that the fanatics don’t want us to focus on THEIR obsession, which is their smug and self-righteous “punishment boners”?). Also, the unwillingness to answer questions is strongly indicative of authoritarianism. At the root here is the unmistakable attitude of “Because I said so, peons! Do NOT question your Rulers!”

So when advanced space aliens come here, you're ready to blast them to smithereens, obliterate them at will... Because they have no human DNA? Are not now, will never be, human? Or at the very least, you're not willing to codify punishment for any alien-murderers?

Murdering a space alien should be placed in the law books as a crime, pro-actively. And also to make a point to the troglodytes, about this "sacred human DNA" crap! WHERE does the sacredness come from, for cryin' out loud to Government Almighty? (Sensible people often believe that it comes from consciousness or sentience, which animals apparently have to varying degrees, but is beyond our ability to precisely measure or quantify.)

From http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/#_Toc107315509

Also see ... THE “LYING LOTHARIO” PROBLEM: Well, a lot of pro-lifers are men, and I would bet that even those pro-lifers who are women? Very few of them have found themselves in the following shoes: Lying Lothario endlessly says “Love ya, babe, Love-ya, Love-ya, Love-ya, NOW can I get down your pants?” After she falls for him and he gets her pregnant, the abuse (from him) begins, and she finds out that he has 7 other “Love-ya, Babe, my One and Only” babes on the side, 4 of them also pregnant by him! So abortion is “veto power” against scumbucket men. If these behavioral genes get passed on and on, humans will evolve into something like elephant seals, where the men most skilled at lying and fighting off the other lying men, get a harem of 40 babes, and the rest of the men get nothing (other than caring for the resulting babies)! So abortion is empowering women to fight off this sort of thing… And reserve their baby-making powers for men who are less lying scum, and will actually make good fathers to the children.

So they want to “capitally punish” the “offenders” (abortion-providing doctors, so as to “dry up” the sources for safe abprtions), while they have never been in the above-described (lied-to female) shoes! Willfully blind self-righteousness, basically…

Or maybe some of the anti-abortion men fantasize and lust after being the elephant-seal-like men who can gather the baby-making powers of a harem of 40 lied-to women, under the new scheme of things?

I am glad that SOME you oppose theft. Theft by deception is also theft; I hope you can see that! When a severely lying Lothario-type dude (as described above) appropriates the baby-making powers of a deceived young woman, that, too, is theft! Abortion is anti-theft, when a deceived woman no longer wants to rent out her womb to a deceptive scumbag, prospective god-awful supposed "father" of a sperm donor!

Those who are anti-abortion unmarried men should be out there desperately courting women who have already been deceived by scumbucket men, and volunteering to raise these unborn children (who are NOT your biological offspring), to fend off a HUGE root cause of abortion, and to put your money where your mouth is! And married anti-abortion men? Check with your wives; see if they mind you donating all of your spare time and money to helping out these future unmarried moms! THESE actions will relieve the pressures towards abortions!

Helping out pregnant women till the give birth, and then abandoning the support of said women (immediately or near-immediately post-birth), scarcely substitutes at ALL, for the loving support of a husband or father for 18 years, by the way!

Yes, there ARE fathers who magnanimously raise not-their-children, and do it well! God, Government Almighty, Allah, Zeus, Buddha, Jesus, etc., all please BLESS them, really and truly! And hopefully these fathers will teach their children NOT to be, or to welcome, “Lying Lothario”! Cultural as well as biological evolution can fend OFF the “Lying Lothario” problem! ALL methods need to be brought to bear; this is a SERIOUS problem here!

Abortions outlawed is a "pro-Lying-Lothario" measure, intended (or effectively intended) to turn humans into harem-fighting elephant seals! He who lies the BEST, and deceives the MOST women, into getting pregnant, WINS the genetic lottery! Meek and mild, honest men who would make good fathers? Well, WHO CARES about THEM?!?! (Or their interests in passing on their genes, which affect the behaviors of future generations?)

Are we not men? We are devolving! Devolving (especially if we ban abortions as “veto power” for lied-to mothers) into elephant-seal-like beasts, trampling the already-born babies underfoot and underfin, while fighting over mating rights, rather than looking to perform our duties as fathers!

[InsaneTrollLogic]

That was wordy and a bit incoherent. Try being a bit more concise next time.

[SQRLSY One]

FANATICS WON’T EVER ANSWER certain questions... Because they have no answers!!!! (Other than emotionally smug self-righteousness.)

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[Pear Satirical]

I was curious so I unmuted him; I'm just as ignorant of what he was saying now as I was before.

[SQRLSY One]

So your lack of reading comprehension, and intellectual capabilities in general, is somehow now MY fault?

AND you want us to evolve towards beasts, like harem-fighting elephant seals? To hell with human fathers as loving care-takers of children... We should all fight over being sperm donors, like ugly elephant seals?

Methinks your soul is ass ugly ass an elephant seal!!!

[Dillinger]

>>What do YOU think that the punishment should be for deliberately killing a fertilized human egg cell?

can't be a punishment for it. can still be wrong.

[SQRLSY One]

Dillinger, you are an enlightened humanoid!!! May Government Almighty Bless you and keep you!!! (Random unjustified divorce, messy housekeeping, bad breath, and Government Almighty knows HOW many other things fall into the same category!!!!)

[Dillinger]

all I can do is shake my head

[SQRLSY One]

You mean that your "punishment boner" is lacking in size?!?!

(Well then GOOD for you, IMHO!!!!)

What have very varied thinkers through the years said about this?
"Beware of all those in whom the urge to punish is strong." - Friedrich Nietzsche
“Mistrust all those in whom the desire to punish is imperative.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"Let he who is without sin, throw the first stone." - Jesus
“How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” - Jesus

[Dillinger]

exactly. punishment not my gig.

[Mother's Lament]

I wonder if Sqrlsy would eat a fetus.

[SQRLSY One]

I wonder if Marxist Mammary-Bahn-Fuhrer The Perfect Necrophiliac Wonder-She-Male will EVER be able to eat Her Own Perfect Pride, enough to admit that supposedly "loving" fartilized Sacred Human Egg Smells is as NOTHING, compared to Her Perfect Death-Lust that COMPELS Her Perfect Self to call other grown humans to commit suicide?

EvilBahnFuhrer, drinking EvilBahnFuhrer Kool-Aid in a spiraling vortex of darkness, cannot or will not see the Light…

[Ted AKA Teddy Salad, CIA/US Ballet Force]

I wonder if we can arrange for SQRLSY to be euthanized?

[DesigNate]

I’m not surprised that you don’t grok the idea of thinking something is morally wrong but anything the state would do as a punishment to try and stop it would be worse.

[SQRLSY One]

I hope that Government Almighty punishes you severely for your bad haircut and your messy housekeeping!!! (If that is what it takes for you to "grok" this concept, that is.)

[DesigNate]

You didn’t posit a concept. You’re baselessly asserting that if you think something is wrong YOU MUST think someone should be punished for it.

[SQRLSY One]

So DesigNate, do you, or do you not, think that those who "murder" Sacred Fartilized Human Egg Smells should be punished, or not? If punished, then HOW severely? It a pretty simple set of questions that I ask... And the ASSorted fascist power pigs will NOT answer! 'Cause they do NOT want to call attention to their highly obscene punishment boners!

[SQRLSY One]

A PLEA FOR MORE TOLERANCE: Some folks “get it” enough (especially when nagged, when called on it) will say, “Well, no, I do NOT advocate punishing, with government force, and laws, those who get or give abortions”, and I say, well, good for YOU! But they insist on continuing to say that abortion is morally-ethically WRONG! If they do so gently and respectfully, once again, I say, good for you! That’s free speech! But now we have to be careful. Shades and degrees, you know…
Analogies: I teach my kid(s) day after day, that “Gays and trans people violate God’s Will, and Mother Nature! They are despicable, unnatural, and EVIL!” Then I am utterly SHOCKED (shocked, I say; SHOCKED!) when reports come home from school, that my kid(s) harass and bully the CRAP out of those that I have called EVIL?!? “Hey, kid, I never told you to BULLY them!!!” Falls kinda flat…
Dark Ages Europe: Pre-Christian WITCHES are EVIL! They cause crop failures, human diseases, drinking the blood of the Christian babies, and stillborn livestock!!! (That’s what I said.) Then I am SHOCKED (shocked, I say; SHOCKED!) when my neighbors burn the accused witches!!! I never said that we should do THAT!!! Once again… Falls kinda flat! Morally, ethically, and (dare we add) spiritually advanced humanoids CAREFULLY watch their words as well as their deeds!

[Fats of Fury]

Left - right x 2 = SQRLSY

[DesigNate]

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[perlmonger]

That's not happening...

[Libertariantranslator]

Orwell would group those under "awkward questions," to which the British Union of Fascists' intelligent response was to attack, bludgeon, beat to a pulp and expel the questioner. (Britain had its own Kristallnacht gun laws in the late 1930s, so unequal yet apposite responses were unavailable).

[Homple]

I wouldn't consider myself a fanatic, but I suggest the penalty should be the same as for shooting a female deer outside of deer season, in the jurisdiction of the incident.

[IdahoMan]

If proven beyond a reasonable doubt, murder (of a HUMAN) should be life without parole or the death penalty. A fertilized human egg is a human being- a human egg and human sperm form to create a new, separate human being and it's wrong to kill innocent humans. This isn't complicated- it's against the law to destroy an eagle egg since you're killing a young eagle. But it's not murder because an eagle isn't a human.

Obviously pregnancy is complicated- a woman doesn't know she's pregnant when a new life is created. Even with the strictest abortion laws, early abortions would be very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt as, sadly, miscarriages (natural death) are common. But if it's known that an abortion occured, the woman should be treated like the someone hiring a hit man. The doctor should be treated like any other murderer. Real world, this won't likely happen. I'd be satisfied with focusing on the doctor just as I think it's better to focus on prosecuting the John rather than the woman selling sex.

Men should be forced to provide for their children...and there's a great institution for that- it's called marriage. End no fault divorce. Bring back the idea that the manly thing to do is marry the woman you impregnated. But even if we don't, I'd rather have a fatherless alive child than dead one.

Certainly men should be encouraged to help and support women with children and marrying her and raising her kids as his own is great. But the world isn't perfect and never will be. That's not an excuse to murder babies. Neither is your strange, misogynistic rant that assumes women are just stupid and don't have agency. Women can say no. Even if they don't say no, there are great ways to prevent a child from being conceived so we don't have to kill them.

[VoteQuimby]

Thank you for the morning chuckle.

[Mike Laursen]

“A fertilized human egg is a human being”

Well, genotypically, at least. It takes a while to be phenotypically human. Why is the former the standard rather than the latter? Because people with religious beliefs that human life is endowed with a soul at birth say so?

[Ted AKA Teddy Salad, CIA/US Ballet Force]

Cite?

[Sansos]

Simple death penalty for the doctors preforming the medically unnecessary abortion like all intentional murderers get and no punishment for aborting an animal fetus, maybe some animal cruelty charge, just like there is no real punishment for killing animals in todays society, next question?

[SQRLSY One]

Next question is WHERE did you get these "answers" from, and WHAT or WHO gives you the right to impose them on the rest of us?

If I can convince 51% of the voters to KILL all those who wear purples ribbons in their hair... You OK with that? Or only if "God told me so?"

[RENATA the rational]

Churchill thought that overlong screeds showed a mindless writer.

“This paper, by its very length, defends itself from ever being read.”
Winston Churchill

[Trutherator]

Exactly when do fertizized eggs and blastocysts magically cross the imaginary line into human beings? When they exit the birth canal? There is already legislation proposed in some states (California) that would legalize it for a time after birth.

Here we have a misogynist pretending to champion women, when the biggest problem is the armies of men refusing to be a father and pressuring and forcing women to kill their babies so they don't have to be real fathers. That is in the real world, not the backwards world painted by the gurus of infant sacrifice.

[SQRLSY One]

"There is already legislation proposed in some states (California) that would legalize it for a time after birth."

Citation please! Proposed by whom... Sevo? The bum under the bridge?! Or a false-flag conservaturncoat nut job?

[Trutherator]

The entire adult human genome is all present in the fertilized egg genome. Just because he/she is so tiny and vulnerable, he's no less a human being. Killing her is against the nature of the parent, especially the mother. The most passionate pro-lifers are women who had the baby killed due to their own decisions.
That misogynist fantasy some guys throw around about bad boys dropping babies everywhere, they actually do it, but the loudest screechers on the subject like Mr. Squirrel there, want to drop their emanations everywhere without consequence.
And stop it with the anti-Christian tirades, you're exposing yourself, avoiding all serious talk about the serious reasons that even pro-life Christians use when discussing this. Go check out godlesspro-lifers.com and other web sites created by atheists who agree that this form of baby-killing is just as evil as the pagan idol sacrifices of infants.

[SQRLSY One]

The entire adult human genome is all present in the unfartilized egg smell PLUS the still-separated-for-now sperm! Thus, since every sperm is sacred, ALL women should be turned into breeding slaves, and fartilized by ***MY*** sacred sperm smells!!! All Hail MEEEE!!!!

[Minadin]

So, it used to be about 1 in 5, now it's closer to 1 in 10, who support total abortion bans without exceptions? Meaning it's always been a fringe minority position, and now it's even more so.

[Not a Fake Name]

This is what I was going comment also. A benefit of returning the issue to the states is that the fringe positions get exposed for what they always have been: fringe positions.

The headline makes it sound like a significant portion of the Republican Party has hypocritically changed their minds when it was always just a small minority of people overall who held these views. The same thing is happening on Democrats where the extreme abortion position is getting exposed... albeit with less media focus because of biases that media outlets also tend to have.

[ThomasD]

"albeit with less media focus because of biases that media outlets also tend to have."

You need to be less subtle when addressing the child writers at Reason. Otherwise Emma will never recognize that you are calling her out on this.

[RENATA the rational]

NO, in reality returning it to the States increases the posturing. And at the American Founding that was the chief worry of the Founders, the utterly incapable hypocritical demagoguery of the State Legislatures. Gordon Wood has several books detailing this.,

[Trutherator]

What he said.

[Trutherator]

For decades, the political candidates who loudly proclaimed support for abortion, were losing much more than getting office. But as so many historical events show, the majority doesn't count for the truth. Ron Paul turned the conversation around and made peace popular again.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

New Poll Shows Cratering Support for Total Abortion Bans Among Republicans

Wait a minute, I have been told by *checks notes* pretty much everyone that Republicans, feeling emboldened by Roe being overturned are on the precipice of demanding all babies clumps of cells be incest babies, to be forcibly brought to term by 10 year olds while a stern looking Christian Imam looks on approvingly.

[JoeJoetheIdiotCircusBoy]

this sounds right to me.

[Moonrocks]

It's almost like the sky isn't falling and people are coming to more nuanced conclusions now that they're actually allowed to debate.

[ThomasD]

Heaven's to Betsy! Abortion laws might actually come to reflect the will of the people?

[TJJ2000]

Why should it. Is it reasonable thought to think every woman's reproductions system be subjected to the 'will of the people'?

Pro-Life fans are 100% inline with leftards.
[WE] mobs RULE! Democratic tyranny for the WIN!/s

[Mike Laursen]

You are not that far off from an accurate description of the conservative extremes on this matter. Wouldn’t be a big deal, but the conservative extremes seem to be in the driver’s seat in several states.

(I tend to overuse the word, actually, in my writing. You may not have noticed that you’ve used “checks notes” at least three times this week.)

[Ted AKA Teddy Salad, CIA/US Ballet Force]

Funny, you never address leftist extremes. But you’re totally neutral, right?

[Dillinger]

ctrl f: total abortion bans = 10

somebody keyed on a term and neglected to describe alternatives

[Moonrocks]

The talking points memo probably emphasized that one.

[Mother's Lament]

The articles are practically prewritten. Sweet gig.

[Nardz]

Funny. Just saw a commercial for the evil totalitarian moron who's running against DeSantis that used the exact same term- "total abortion ban".
Reason really doesn't hide the fact that it's just a DNC organ. No idea why some of yall still insist on living in denial.

[Utkonos]

Well remember that the new second definition of “literal@ is “figurative” so, when they say it’s a “total” ban don’t mean in the literal sense, they’re speaking literally!

[Ted AKA Teddy Salad, CIA/US Ballet Force]

Charlie Crist is an empty vessel ready to be filled with whatever agenda will propel him back into office. He has zero principles. Just like Darth Brandon. If Crist thought he could be governor or senator tomorrow he would comply flip and endorse a ‘total ban on abortion’.

[mad.casual]

We can't know for sure why support for total abortion bans is declining among Americans, but such a dramatic shift may be the result of a kind of buyer's remorse.

It could also be, after nearly a decade of casting anyone who opposed anything prior to post-partum euthanasia was a right-wing abortofreak, it actually turns out that the group of people who don't want to murder children isn't a monolithic political group.

[Dillinger]

dude it's mean to make emma think every girl doesn't lockstep her beliefs

[Social Justice is neither]

You could leave that statement at "it's mean to make Emna think" because the results are pure imbecelic cringe.

[ThomasD]

Based.

(Said totally and unironically for Emma's benefit.)

[MasterThief]

That brings up an interesting point. I saw nothing of the methodology here so I don't have a clue how many people were polled and am unconvinced the slight change can be attributed to anything more than statistical error and sampling standards. I also can't see if the question itself has been worded the same way.
On top of that, the drop in support among Republicans could easily be explained by the MAGA crowd of people who used to be center left democrats now identifying as republican.
All that aside, the article is dishonest in its framing from the beginning. There is not a broad movement to eliminate all abortions regardless of extenuating circumstances. There have been several state laws to reduce or eliminate elective abortion past viability or the first trimester.

[ThomasD]

" the article is dishonest in its framing from the beginning."

Still longer than "free minds and free markets" but it does have the singular merit of being absolutely accurate.

[BestUsedCarSales]

That same poll seems to be showing a 50% increase in Democratic support of abortion bans in all cases since Roe. So, no idea what these results mean.

[SQRLSY One]

These results mean (along with "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the fella behind the tree") that I sincerely bleeve that ***I*** am righteous, and that all who oppose MEEE (in matters of fartilized egg smells having souls, and ALL other such DEEP matters!!!) are inferior, lesser, defective mere mortals!!!

All Bow Low and Hail MEEEEEE!!!! (ALL who bleeve sincerely, MUST be respected, after all!!!!)

[InsaneTrollLogic]

Care to translate into English? I don't speak Crazy.

[SQRLSY One]

In today's political environment, the anti-abortion "right" has a near-monopoly on smug self-righteousness! For further study, in detail, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/#_Toc107315509

[InsaneTrollLogic]

Somehow you missed out on the extremely self-righteous woke left.

[SQRLSY One]

Sad to say, you are correct, generally. WITH RESPECT TO REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, the anti-abortion “right” has a near-monopoly on smug self-righteousness!

[Mother's Lament]

What about a mother's further reproductive rights Sqrlsy. Should they just arbitrarily end post-partum? What if she wants it ripped to shreds 10 months on? Or 12, 21 or 106?

Do you hate a woman's right to continue to choose?

[SQRLSY One]

What, the woman’s right to continue to choose to RECOMMEND THAT PEOPLE SHOULD KILL THEMSELVES? Like YOU do, Perfectly Evil Necrophiliac (Death-Loving) Bitch?

You (Perfectly) LOVE the unborn... Till they are BORN, and THEN, if they disagree with Perfect YOU, you tell them to... KILL themselves!!!!

Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer, Supreme Demonic Director of Decay, Destruction, and Death, will now SPEAK! HARKKK silently and RESPECTFULLY, all ye lowly heathens, as She Directs Death, and announces WHICH few of us MIGHT deserve to live, and WHO all deserves to DIE-DIE-DIE!!!

https://reason.com/2022/01/25/did-these-three-officers-willfully-deprive-george-floyd-of-his-constitutional-rights/?comments=true#comment-9323626
“You should really join ᛋᛋqrlsy, ᛋᛋhrike. You two goosestepping fascists offing yourselves would definitely be a mitzvah.”

-Quote MammaryBahnFuhrer the "Expert Christian Theologian", AKA Mother’s Lament, with a head full of cement

So Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer, Supreme Demonic Director of Decay, Destruction, and Death... WHEN are You going to STOP stealing the IDs of Your victims, and then posting kiddie porn in THEIR names, and then blaming THEM?

Inquiring minds want to KNOW, dammit!

[Ted AKA Teddy Salad, CIA/US Ballet Force]

I support my right to choose open ended abortion of SQRLSY.

[RENATA the rational]

YOu are like the s the greatest hypocrite in all of Shakespeare: Iago . What he says may be true, but he doesn't believe a word of it.

[Trutherator]

Sounds like you don't think much of people who don't think like you.
How about "Let us reason together" like the Lord says. Most pro-aborts just shout anti-Christian slogans and try to tell themselves against all science that the growing baby inside the mother isn't a human being. It is a human being.

[SQRLSY One]

The following links I add w/o any comments from Yours Truly: “The Skeptic's Annotated Bible/Qu'ran/Book of Mormon--What The Bible Says About Abortion” https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html ... Plus https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-05-20/religious-backers-of-abortion-rights-say-gods-on-their-side

[SQRLSY One]

and https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099542962/abortion-ben-franklin-roe-wade-supreme-court-leak

OK, yet another link: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/05/27/1099739656/do-restrictive-abortion-laws-actually-reduce-abortion-a-global-map-offers-insigh “Do restrictive abortion laws actually reduce abortion? A global map offers insights” Answer: No, tighter laws do NOT reduce the number of abortions… They just make them harder to get, and more dangerous!

[SQRLSY One]

THE SOCIOBIOLOGY OF “LYING LOTHARIO”: “Lying Lothario”, in full, is AKA “Leisure Suit Larry the Lying Lothario in the Land of the Lounge Lizards”, just FYI, but here, we’ll simply call him “Lying Lothario” for short.

A few introductory remarks, and then let’s get ON with it! Anti-abortion types often state that “fertilized egg cells have human rights”, as if it is self-evident, or Received Wisdom (from WHOM is often hard to get out of them), and then there is NO arguing with them, past this point! They’ll just state their position (with fancy biology terms at times) over and over again! There are NO “scientific” or data-driven definitions for “rights”, other than, what have I grabbed out of thin air, to justify what I think that moral and ethical behavior is, and why I (or 51% of the voters if I can convince them) I should force it on YOU!

Well, back that up a tad. The only really firm grounds (“data-driven” grounds is a better fit here than “scientific” grounds) that we have here, is as follows: “What are the results of our policies, and what are the most likely results of these here policy changes?” “God told me so” doesn’t deserve much of a public hearing, besides politeness. And the quest for politeness is wasted on many a fanatic, who HAS no politeness! God told you that fertilized egg cells have souls, and God told me that they don’t! Now we’re stuck! Back to policies and their effects, if we have any REAL smarts!

A whole book (And I recommend it highly) has been written by Sam Harris, “The Moral Landscape How Science Can Determine Human Values”.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Landscape#:~:text=The%20Moral%20Landscape%3A%20How%20Science,morality%2C%20facts%2C%20and%20science. Now HERE are firm grounds on which to base discussions! I must add, I am NOT opposed to religion in general… Religion is of GREAT value, so long as the leaders and practitioners act out of humility and BENEVOLENCE (aka “Love”), and NOT out of lust for political power! “Beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing”, said a Fart Smeller, I mean a very Smart Feller, WAY back when! Also, be data-driven… That one and the same Smart Feller also said that “The truth will set you free!”

[TJJ2000]

Set it free (i.e. Fetal Ejection) and prove your B.S. ‘science’.
If you can't prove your 'science' your science is nothing but B.S. imagination.

[SQRLSY One]

Yeah, the below cuts through a LOT of bullshit...

"Is a 6 month old infant able to survive on its own?" No, the parents are supposed to defend it from harm, without Nosenheimers or Buttinskies interfering. If the parents can NOT fully and well do their jobs, the child should be given up for adoption. YOU CAN'T GIVE A FERTILIZED EGG CELL UP FOR ADOPTION RIGHT AFTER IT IS IMPLANTED IN THE WOMB!!! HELLO?!?!!
Nosenheimers and Buttinskies, PLEASE butt OUT of other people's lives!!!

[mad.casual]

Admitted/agreeing/acknowledging that such survey idiocy is idiotic:

See above. Now that you can say "I don't think women should be able to abort after 8 weeks (or whatever now counts as 'total ban')." without getting "Where do you go to Church? I need to know so I can burn it down." in reply, it gets easier to state such an opinion out loud, even if you think we should be nationalizing healthcare or doing more to control gun violence or legalizing drugs...

Again, I get the feeling that, in the background, after the purchase of Twitter or upon recognition of what's going to happen in the midterms or the success of Top Gun after COVID and the collapse of WB, the MCU, The Woman King, and Rings Of Power or whatever, there's a broad "OK, maybe everyone who owns a gun and thinks we shouldn't mutilate children or murder babies isn't a right-wing hellspawn."

[Social Justice is neither]

Democrats freed from their most abortion supporting positions, Republicans freed from their most staunch abortion opposition positions? Nuance is allowed back into the conversation?

[RENATA the rational]

But the baby either dies or lives. To speak centrist nonsense is to be a little Hitler

[Trutherator]

Say it often, say it loud.

[TJJ2000]

Yeah... Obviously the Political Parties should OWN every single individual! /s
Land of the Political Parties to be free to rule tyrannically! /s

[RENATA the rational]

THe rise in Democrat support for restriction in abortion is HUGE. Go to the horse's mouth
DFLA - Pro-Life for the Whole Life - Democrats For Life of ...https://www.democratsforlife.org
We are the preeminent national organization for whole life Democrats, promoting whole-life issues that protect human life at all of its stages.

[InsaneTrollLogic]

OK, Emma, now do the flip side of this: those who believe abortion should be legal up until birth. You might find more Democrats who want them than Republicans who want a total and complete 100% ban on any and all abortions.

[SQRLSY One]

You might find more Democrats who want their votes counted honestly, that one can find admirers of the TrumptatorShit, who bleeve likewise. SOOOO WHAT?!??!! (Does that PROVE that wanting your vote counted honestly is somehow EVIL?!??)

[RENATA the rational]

But that ignores the moral principle of double effect and the medical definition of abortion. You are just playing with words

[TJJ2000]

It's amazing how ignorant things can be when politics (Gov-GUN) force gets involved.

Fetal Ejection. Concerns addressed with common-sense.

Because...
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. fetal ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.

[rev-arthur-l-kuckland]

Perhaps if reason were to pull their heads out of their progressive asses they would realize a few things.
1. Stop conflating some abortion support with total abortion support
2. Stop conflating some abortion limitations with total abortion limitations.
3. Roe v wade being overturned does not end abortion. It kicks it back to the state where it belongs. It is not a war on women, or a war on freedom. It is federalism where most decisions are left to more local levels, you know the position reason use to champion
4. You have devolved into a leftist rag and should slit your wrists

[SQRLSY One]

"You have devolved into a leftist rag and should slit your wrists"

EvilBahnFuhrer, drinking EvilBahnFuhrer Kool-Aid in a spiraling vortex of darkness, cannot or will not see the Light… It’s a VERY sad song! Kinda like this…

He’s a real Kool-Aid Man,
Sitting in his Kool-Aid Land,
Playing with his Kool-Aid Gland,
His Hero is Jimmy Jones,
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jim-Jones
Loves death and the dying moans,
Then he likes to munch their bones!
Has no thoughts that help the people,
He wants to turn them all to sheeple!
On the sheeple, his Master would feast,
Master? A disaster! Just the nastiest Beast!
Kool-Aid man, please listen,
You don’t know, what you’re missin’,
Kool-Aid man, better thoughts are at hand,
The Beast, to LEAVE, you must COMMAND!

A helpful book is to be found here: M. Scott Peck, Glimpses of the Devil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1439167265/reasonmagazinea-20/

Hey EvilBahnFuhrer …
If EVERYONE who makes you look bad, by being smarter and better-looking than you, killed themselves, per your wishes, then there would be NO ONE left!
Who would feed you? Who’s tits would you suck at, to make a living? WHO would change your perpetually-smelly DIAPERS?!!?
You’d better come up with a better plan, Stan!

[Trutherator]

Pot meet kettle. At Jonestown the messages blasting from the loudspeakers around camp were 24/7 readings from the writings of Karl Marx. There's a reason that the things the Jonestown koolaid drinkers didn't reach play in most media. One of them that did sneak out somehow was the mother who was saying she was glad to make this sacrifice for SOCIALISM. Socialism was the Jonestown religion.

[ThomasD]

"4. You have devolved into a leftist rag and should slit your wrists"

A milquetoast leftist rag at that. Not sure I'd advise them to slit their wrists, given how they write they would probably try to do so using a butterknife.

[TJJ2000]

The BIGGEST dumbest lie the Pro-Life movement hold to.

"3. Roe v wade being overturned does not end abortion. It kicks it back to the state where it belongs."

BULLSH*T!!!!!! It overturned Constitutional Protections of Individual Choice and handed them over to State Legislatures.

How stupid does one have to be to believe your lies?

[MWAocdoc]

The only hope for America on this issue is that total abortion bans at the state level are losers for Republicans trying to get elected in red and purple states. If only 22% supported total bans ten years ago and only half that many support them now, only the most zealously partisan Republican candidates would want to fall on their swords by trying to run on that plank. Even if you allow them the proposition that abortion is murder, there isn't even a total ban anywhere in the United States on homicide of adults. Justified homicide and justified abortions are almost completely parallel situations legally speaking.

[SQRLSY One]

Well stated; thank you!!!

[Agammamon]

No, no they are not. JFC.

[RENATA the rational]

Nothing about whether it is wrong to take innocent life.
Nothing about the Founders opposition to abortion.

[MWAocdoc]

Once again you don't seem to understand the difference between "moral" and "legal." If you think abortion is immoral, don't get one. Murder is illegal. Illegal means society can punish you if you violate the law. Whether or not something should be illegal is a completely different question from whether it is immoral. Not everything that YOU think is immoral should be illegal. The Constitution exists, in part, to prevent YOU from imposing YOUR morals on ME.

[Mike Laursen]

“the founders’ opposition to abortion”

Please expound on this assertion.

[SQRLSY One]

Yeah, no shit on THAT one!

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099542962/abortion-ben-franklin-roe-wade-supreme-court-leak

Benjamin Franklin gave instructions on at-home abortions in a book in the 1700s

Hang Mike Pence! And now hang Benjamin Franklin's bones too!!!!

(Cool trick for Halloween!)

[markm23]

In Grand Rapids, Michigan: My mailbox has been full of campaign flyers for a couple of months. The only ones claiming that Republican candidates are for a total abortion ban were from Democrats.

[I have cookies]

Another useless prop piece from Reason. Here's the order of events, with 2 & 3 predictable off 1.
1. Dobbs ruling comes down.
2. States exercise right to sort out for themselves abortion limits.
3. Period of discovery follows before settling into state-by-state variations of abortion laws.

Why is this drop predictable? You have 50 years where abortion can be legal up to the moment of birth. And abortion rates keep increasing. Of course the people who disagree will more likely take the antithetical position in polling. Once the federally-sanctioned murder is found unconstitutional, those who disagreed with it can find their own new position. Completely predictable. If you had a strong light-sensitivity and I put you in a room with bright lights on at 100%, would you want to move them to 50% and see if that's OK for you, or to turn them off where you know the pain stops and then perhaps dial up from there? Emma likely overpays when car-shopping.

Reason should be glad it is at a state level now. I don't get why a liberty-minded organization like Reason is be so eager to run interference for government-funded murder of people, particularly the most innocent ones.

[MWAocdoc]

False! Abortion rates have been dropping almost continuously for that entire period of time! Fewer and fewer women are using abortion as a means of birth control as better and better alternatives become more widely available.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=P6MKy8xT&id=7B35CCC3051ECFBC0045D6B4CE4C313DF03AA508&thid=OIP.P6MKy8xT1NLVex4Yh9xMDwHaEP&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fus-east-1.tchyn.io%2fsnopes-production%2fuploads%2f2016%2f11%2frevisedfig.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.3fa30acbcc53d4d2d57b1e1887dc4c0f%3frik%3dCKU68D0xTM601g%26pid%3dImgRaw%26r%3d0&exph=748&expw=1306&q=Abortion+Rates&simid=608045048963143825&FORM=IRPRST&ck=015C8B0ED09C00EAA201177C1314C010&selectedIndex=0&idpp=overlayview&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

[NoVaNick]

This, and also fewer people who can carry a fetus are (formerly known as women) are having heterosexual relationships, or any relationships at all. Last I heard, something like 1/3 of GenZ identifies as LGBTQ+IAXYZ, so there’s a lot less procreative nookie going on.

[RENATA the rational]

YOu even misread your own evidence !!
Japan is the prime example of what you are trying to say. And ther elderly die alone undiscovered for weeks, Couples have to rent guests for their wedding. And the population is plummeting and despair is everywhere.
"Rent a friend": New boom of increasingly lonely Japanese ...https://www.asianews.it › news-en › Rent-a-friend:-New...
Jul 25, 2016 — Elderly, lonely people, male and female students, can have the company of a middle-aged man for about 1000 yen per hour (about $ 10). The ...

In Japan, the elderly often live, and die, alonehttps://www.seattletimes.com › nation-world › in-japan-th...
Nov 30, 2017 — With no families or visitors to speak of, many older tenants spent weeks or months cocooned in their small apartments, offering little hint of ...

[RENATA the rational]

Actually, birth control is the leading contributor to abortion.
contraception, when generally accepted in a society, helps to bring about a radical change in social perceptions of sexual intercourse, human life, the human person, science, and morality in general. On account of this, contraception helps to ingrain abortion and other anti-life practices into the culture that accepts it and, therefore, in no sense can be considered as a panacea for abortion. Particular attention is given to the thought of John Paul II on this matter who noted that “despite their differences of nature and moral gravity, contraception and abortion are often closely connected, as fruits of the same tree” (Evangelium vitae, n. 13).

[SQRLSY One]

So then let's outlaw abortion and make things WORSE? Is THAT what you WANT to say?

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/05/27/1099739656/do-restrictive-abortion-laws-actually-reduce-abortion-a-global-map-offers-insigh “Do restrictive abortion laws actually reduce abortion? A global map offers insights” Answer: No, tighter laws do NOT reduce the number of abortions… They just make them harder to get, and more dangerous!

[Nardz]

"liberty-minded organization like Reason"

Lol

[Mike Laursen]

There’s a lot to unpack, but let’s take one assertion you made: please cite where Reason has ever, even once, advocated for government funding of abortion.

[TJJ2000]

Kill the U.S. Constitution! It's "federally sanctioned!" /s
F'En Power-Mad retards and their bogus propaganda.

[JoeB]

My first thought: Great, let the voters decide for each state. My second thought: Hmm...PRRI, who's that? A nonprofit think tank founded by liberal Robert P. Jones, who spends his time apologizing for "white Christian America", and which has used source material by Jennifer Rubin. "Nuff said.

[RENATA the rational]

You need data not 'thoughts'
If Hitler said 2+2=4 would you say "no , it can't, this guys hates Jews and his source material is Nietzsche"
Nuff really said

[ckfred]

I look at it this way. I'm staunchly pro-choice, and I have and will continue to vote for pro-life Republicans. A woman's right to chose is outweighed by things like taxes and a pro-business environment.

But, what bugs me are Democrats who say that a total abortion ban is advocated by extremists.

So, the Roman Catholic Church is an extremist organization? I have Catholic friends who think all Protestant churches are extremist organizations, because only extremists would defy Rome.

Whether it's pro-choice, married clergy, or women in the clergy, we Protestants are the extremists who must return to the Catholic Church and its teachings.

[DesigNate]

If that woman’s right to choose applied to everything, I might agree with you. Sadly it only ever applies to killing their fetuses, so I think those other two are more important. But you do you.

[TJJ2000]

Don't kill my unicorn!!!
Set if FREE (i.e. Fetal Ejection) or just shut the F'Up!

[ThomasD]

“Whether it’s pro-choice, married clergy, or women in the clergy, we Protestants are the extremists who must return to the Catholic Church and its teachings.”

Take your time. We are having our own issues right now. While I do know many who would never “defy” Rome, many of those have also adopted the attitude of “we made it past the Borgias, we will make it past this crew.” Because the rot that gave us Francis runs deep.

[RENATA the rational]

No one thinks they are really your friends with you describing them -- behind their backs -- as anti-Protestant. you are obviously anti-any-belief and what devout person couldn't smell that a mile away?
My friends? Really !!!!

[Libertariantranslator]

Belief is what nationalsocialists now call Faith. It is still the determination--not only to believe stuff for which no evidence exists--but to use harmful and deadly force to impose it on others.

[RENATA the rational]

Maybe you just cut your head off by doing the ole unthinking Democrats vs Republicans thing. Here are some groups to help you Secular Pro-Life: Welcomehttps://secularprolife.org We welcome pro-life activists, closeted pro-lifers, people on the fence, and anyone interested in exploring the secular arguments against abortion.

DFLA – Pro-Life for the Whole Life – Democrats For Life of …https://www.democratsforlife.org We are the preeminent national organization for whole life Democrats, promoting whole-life issues that protect human life at all of its stages.

Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians – Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Pro-Life_Alliance_of_… The Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians (PLAGAL) is a United States-based interest group opposed to legalized elective abortion

I have known a ton of people like you. THey will never just say “It is wrong to take an innocent life”

[SQRLSY One]

Chelsea Becker mentioned in The Guardian, “She was jailed for losing her pregnancy.” Happens a LOT, already! Jailed for 12, 16 months, in cases mentioned here. It WILL happen some more, especially if “R” Party gets its way here! Victims are the poor and powerless as usual. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/03/california-stillborn-prosecution-roe-v-wade ... “Say her name”, people!

“If Roe is overturned, the ripples could affect IVF and genetic testing of embryos, experts warn.” https://www.statnews.com/2022/06/06/roe-v-wade-preimplantation-genetic-testing-ivf-clinics/ Anti-abortionists just LOVE the babies SOOO much, that parents with serious genetic defects will now chose NOT to have babies at ALL! Also note that the freezer(s) at IVF clinics sometimes fail, embryos thaw out unexpectedly, and are thereby “killed”! In the new regime of things, prepare for the finger of blame (“murderers!”) to be pointed at the utility companies and manufacturers of freezers and back-up generators! The lawyers will now make YOU, the consumer, pay a LOT more for these things!

The above are worthy reads! SOME late-term pregnancies are GUARANTEED to NOT yield a baby that you can take home! Women WILL die, for lack of late-term abortions! (What is better, a few minutes or hours for a doomed infant (outside of the womb), plus a dead mom, or a living mom, who can live for many more years? Maybe even give birth to HEALTHY babies, later on?).

[TJJ2000]

I have known a ton of people like you. THey will never just say “It is wrong to use Gov-GUNS to enslave/dictate every Womans ***********PERSONAL********** life pregnancy”

[Libertariantranslator]

So, "it is wrong to take the life of a pneumococcus bacillus" is the hard case starting point. Germs are definitely alive, life began millions of years ago, so nevermind the logical steps in between. The "miracle of blind Faith" makes it follow logically that pregnant women must be coerced by deadly force. Q.E.D. The straitjacket of mysticism is looking like a poor method of making inferences.

[Mike Laursen]

Catholics can be extremists. My former best friend turned into a fundamentalist Catholic. Made it hard to stay close friends since he has all truth, you know, and my thoughts on many topics are wrong.

[creech]

I don't know one person who believes an 11 year old raped and impregnated by her brother should be forced to carry the baby until birth. Or one person who believes in "choice" up until the baby is crowning. Probably a Bell Curve of views with most folks willing to go along with 13-20 weeks abortion o.k. and after that only if life of the mother is endangered.

[Libertariantranslator]

Creech never met Linseed Graham Cracker, Marjorie Greene Teeth or Mutha's Regret.

[Mother's Lament]

Yes, but the narrative.

[RENATA the rational]

Just don't say all rape or incest victims should be forced against their will to make you happy
These are the real "experts" on this complex issue: the women who have been there. Just listen to what they have to say:

"After my daughter was born, it was love at first sight . . . I know I made the right decision in having her." —Nancy "Cole"

"Often I cry. Cry because I could not stop the attacks. Cry because my daughter is dead. And I cry because it still hurts." —Edith Young

"I think that rape victims with pregnancies are discriminated against because people seem to think you're nuts to have a baby by a man who raped you. We are looked upon as being liars, or stupid." —Sharon "Bailey"

"They say abortion is the easy way out, the best thing for everyone, but they are wrong. It has been over 15 years, and I still suffer." —"Rebecca Morris"

"I thank God for the strength He gave me to go through the bad times and for all of the joy in the good times. I will never regret that I chose to give life to my daughter." —Mary Murray

"Abortion does not help or solve a problem—it only compounds and creates another trauma for the already grieving victim by taking away the one thing that can bring joy." —Helene Evans

"The effects of the abortion are much more far-reaching than the effects of the rape in my life." —"Patricia Ryan"

"I, having lived through rape, and having raised a child ‘conceived in rape,' feel personally assaulted and insulted every time I hear that abortion should be legal for rape and incest. I feel that we're being used to further the abortion issue, even though we've not been asked to tell our side of the story." —Kathleen DeZeeuw

In Victims and Victors, 20 women like the ones quoted above share what it is like to face a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. They speak bravely and candidly of the pain of sexual assault, of the sadness and trauma of abortion, and of the joy and healing of giving birth.

Victims and Victors answers these important questions—questions every pro-lifer should be asking:

What do women really need when facing a pregnancy resulting from sexual assault, and how can we best meet those needs?

How can pro-lifers hold on to their principles while providing compassionate and understanding support for pregnant sexual assault victims at the same time?

How can legislators best convey a pro-woman, pro-life philosophy when faced with questions regarding sexual assault and abortion?

Why are rape and incest pregnancies the "cornerstone" for abortion on demand, and what can pro-lifers do to counteract this?

How can women who have experienced sexual assault pregnancies share the truth about their experiences in a way that will truly make a difference?

You will find the answers to these questions in Victims and Victors. It lays out a clear argument against abortion in cases of sexual assault and gives pro-lifers the tools they need to combat the argument that abortion is helpful—or even necessary—for women facing a sexual assault pregnancy.

This book is a "must read" for everyone involved in the pro-life movement.

[Mike Laursen]

Don’t doubt these quotes, but I suspect they are cherry picked and there are lots of women out there who would relate negative experiences.

[SQRLSY One]

Say the following (which I regard to be true) and many conservatives will immediately agree: We can be OUTWARDLY “compassionate” while harming people. Minimum wages and rent controls come to mind! Of COURSE we are compassionate when we mandate higher pay and lower rent! Yet if we do these kinds of things to ANY significant degree, we “dry up” many of both the available low-wage jobs and the available apartments! Now go be jobless and homeless, ye victims of our “compassion”! Because businesses and landlords don’t want to lose money! Plain and simple!

Then WHY can’t conservatives see the similar dynamic when trying to be “compassionate” with other peoples’ wombs? Sure, we all love babies! But what happens to the victims, not just of “Lying Lothario”, but also of birth-control failures, and of genetic and developmental (in-the-womb) defects? “The rich will get richer, and the poor will have children”! More non-wage-earning babies and children in a family is a straight, unadulterated input contributing to poverty! It’s not what most people desire or admire, sure, but abortion is backup birth control. Our new USA move towards outlawing more and more abortions, in more states, will aggravate poverty among the poor, Blacks, and Hispanics, who can’t afford to travel for abortions, as easily as richer Whites can. We’ll be thwarting the “demographic transition” (https://populationeducation.org/what-demographic-transition-model/#:~:text=The%20Demographic%20Transition%20Model%20(DTM,as%20that%20country%20develops%20economically ) for poor residents of the USA! The rich yank the ladder out from the grasp of the could-be-climbing poor, with abortion laws, just as they do with minimum wages, rent controls, and excessive job-licensing laws!

Good luck to y’all, Dear Readers, in your millions and billions, in your “battles of the sexes”! The battles WILL go on!

I don’t have much sympathy for (don’t take the side of) “Lying Lothario” here, but, in trying to be more Christ-like, I should at least intend what is best for them (Get better, please; try to develop some empathy for others!). I have more sympathy for lied-to women. (Although, in fairness, in the “battle of the sexes”, some do practice “entrapment”.)

Anyway, w/regards to the sexes abusing each other, I have “been to the mountain top” to see the Guru in the cave, and have learned MUCH wisdom, which I will now pass on to you… Hooray!

Q: What’s the difference between a woman who just can NOT find a man who treats her well, and so, she is constantly shuttling between abusive men? And a man who abuses women, by, for example, among many other things, yanking on her “jugs” too hard?

A: The first is a “jerks juggler”, and the second is a “jugs jerker”!

Can you say, “Jerks-jugglers juggle jugs-jerking jerks”? Really fast now!

[SQRLSY One]

https://reason.com/2022/07/19/idaho-state-gop-says-abortion-should-be-illegal-even-when-used-to-save-a-womans-life/ "The Idaho GOP's platform throws this reasoning out with the bath water. According to the Idaho Reports Blog, an amendment to allow exceptions for "lethal danger" was proposed, with supporting delegates citing ectopic pregnancy concerns. That amendment was defeated 412–164. " Ectopic pregnancies will now be a DEATH SENTENCE in Idaho, 'cause of SINNERS who DARE to suffer random ectopic pregnancies!!! And YOU (extremists), will be there (right, rightist?) cheering ON the death of the "sinning" mother!!!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/02/health/abortion-myths-mental-health-wellness/index.html Myths about abortion and women's mental health are widespread, experts say… from above… Women denied an abortion who carried their babies to term were "much more likely to experience physical health issues at the time of childbirth, as childbirth is much more risky than having an abortion," Biggs said. Two of the women in the study died during childbirth.
A 2012 study found the risk of death associated with childbirth is approximately 14 times higher than the risk from abortion. After five years, the study found women denied an abortion were more likely to "live in poverty and much more likely to suffer economic hardship, including more bankruptcies, debt and challenges meeting basic living needs," Biggs said. Women who were turned away were also more likely to be tethered to a violent and abusive partner, and to have chronic health conditions, Biggs said. "They also lowered their aspirations (for the future), and they were less likely to achieve them," she added.

[Libertariantranslator]

"Nazi Billionaires" is a must read for everyone interested in reducing coercion. Some Jewish individuals joined and supported the National Socialist Party. Jews were about the same fraction of Germany's population as Libertarian voters are of America's. Freedom (as opposed to religious death camps) requires non-coercive Dems and Libertarians, not dumber, harder, angrier Christian National Socialists.

[Mike Laursen]

You are probably right, except for leaving out the effect of Red vs Blue Team culture warring conditioning people to adopt team think and never ask themselves what their personal thoughts are.

[TJJ2000]

Murder of 'others' imaginary unicorns in other people is totes okay?
As long as those other people meet the Pro-Life's morals?

Think about it. Pro-Life is nothing but religion being legislated.

[Libertariantranslator]

Eagerness to coerce others focuses on hard cases, like the crowning baby Body Snatcher cruelly aborted by Donald Sutherland. The general notion that The Political State in America ought to redefine person--as in nationalsocialist Germany and international socialist Russia--and back that with deadly force is not a good one. Enslaving an individual by coercion is what mystical fanatics seek to fasten onto ALL women just as Texas and Alabama plantation owners did to women of fractional African ancestry before the 13th Amendment said no.

[Libertariantranslator]

Emma need only search "2022 Republican Platform" to find this gem from Texas: 217. Pro-Life: Until the abolition of abortion is achieved, we support laws that restrict and regulate abortion, including but not limited to: a. Parental and informed consent, including the elimination of judicial bypass. b. Prohibition of licensing, liability, and malpractice insurance for abortionists and abortion facilities. c. Prohibition of financial kickbacks for abortion referrals. d. Prohibition of late-term abortions. e. Prohibition of abortions after the time an unborn child’s heartbeat is detected. f. Prohibition of the manufacturing and sale of abortifacients. g. Elimination of causes of action for “wrongful birth.” h. Health insurance coverage for abortion services and abortifacients, which under Texas law shall be considered supplemental coverage and billed to the beneficiary. i. Criminal penalties be attached to any entity convicted of selling body parts of aborted children or, excluding the mother, of conducting an illegal abortion. j. Extend the private cause of action used in the Texas Heartbeat Act to all pro-life laws and policies in Texas. 218. Abolish Abortion: Since life begins at fertilization, we urge the Texas Legislature to abolish abortion through enacting legislation that would immediately secure the rights to life and would nullify any and all federal statutes, regulations, orders, and court rulings that would deny these rights. Bear in mind that Texas was the first state (20FEB1861) to raise arms against the Union to preserve the "right" to rape black women and force them to reproduce involuntarily. Now it's out to enslave ALL women. Make a donation to NARAL.

[Brian]

I look forward to having elections where the freedom to kill your babies isn’t an important topic.

[Bender B. Rodriguez]

This. We are in the wild west of sorting out the fallout from the Dobbs decision. I anticipate most states eventually aligning with the European position of a 12 to 15 week ban, which seems like what most Americans are actually comfortable with. Some more, some less, but that's the nature of Federalism.

[Libertariantranslator]

"Most Americans" ain't the Suprema Corte appointed by George Holy War and G. Waffen Bush. Libertarian Founders offered a compromise between Comstock totalitarianism and the Constitution. G.O.P. Grabbers Of Pussy immediately demanded Constitutional Amendments to make pregnant women something akin to Jews in Antebellum Germany or African descendants in Antebellum Confederate states. Males ought to refrain from voting to coerce, and let's watch how female voters handle Televangelist offers of coercion.

[Cronut]

That election is in a couple of weeks. Abortion is not an important issue in this election to anyone but the psycho proggie left. Reason runs 20 abortion articles a day because the Dems have absolutely nothing else to run on, so they’re trying to MAKE it an important issue.

But on Nov. 8, abortion is going to change exactly 0 people’s votes. They’re voting on the economy, which is why Stacey Abrams and Jen Psaki are now trying to tie abortion to the economy.

[RENATA the rational]

Childless Abrams and childless Oprah.
Abortion is the great excuse for why I lived and died and contributed zip zero nada zilch.

[Utkonos]

You oppose midterm abortions? EXTRRREMIST!! (I rolled the Rs and did a ridiculously overwrought Shakespearean accent on the last word)

[TJJ2000]

Me too. Especially since if any murder really is occurring it’s done by a doctor. All along it could’ve been legislated that doctors couldn’t intentionally ‘kill’ a fetus but that I guess wasn’t Power-Mad enough for religious nut-jobs. FORCED reproduction is all they could settle with.

Fetal Ejection - The entire yet purposefully (Power-Mad) ignored solution to such a simple debate.

[TJJ2000]

...And need anyone forget...
WHAT BABY??? You lying propaganda spreading indoctrinated fool.

If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-GUN FORCED reproduction.

[Libertariantranslator]

Elections are not going to help the Brian muppet repeal the 13th Amendment any more than they'll help other collectivists repeal the Second--not until Robert Dear is a "major" candidate for Chancellor.

[Agammamon]

Camp, Camp, Camp. Emma. There was never much support among Republicans for total abortion bans.

Republicans were fine the the old RvW compromise - increasing restrictions after the first trimester.

You have been fighting a straw man this whole time.

[Cronut]

They get their asses kicked pretty squarely if they try to argue on the actual facts.

[RENATA the rational]

Try a diet of TRUTH
DFLA - Pro-Life for the Whole Life - Democrats For Life of ...https://www.democratsforlife.org
We are the preeminent national organization for whole life Democrats, promoting whole-life issues that protect human life at all of its stages.

[TJJ2000]

Gov-GUNS against those icky people for [WE] mob +Life...
Yep; As I've said before 100% inline with leftard mentality.

Problem with you leftards is you don't seem to acknowledge the criminal ways in your mentality. Using Gov-GUNS (via [WE] mob gangs) against the people to STEAL/ENSLAVE is NOT charity. It's every lazy-*ss, self-justifying, psychotic criminals wet dream. To TAKE whatever they want without having to EARN a G.D. thing. (i.e. Fair Play).

U leftards are happy to take everyone's LIBERTY and dismiss JUSTICE for armed-robbery of [WE] gangs-of-the-hood crime-land governing. Simple minded Barbarics is the best term for leftard mentality.

[TJJ2000]

^EXACTLY Agammamon..........
Roe v Wade was wisely written by a Republican Supreme Court.

The Pro-Life movement is all about Gov-GUNS and Power-Mad religious legislation.

[NoVaNick]

The GOP has now caught its roadrunner/white whale of overturning RVW. If they realize that completely banning it is going to cost them, they’ll find out pretty quickly and back down. Democrats very much would like to ban many things too: guns, (which they can’t) gas stoves, nicotine/tobacco, but so far haven’t had to pay much for these because they have been in deep blue enclaves where most already agree with them.

[ThomasD]

“. If they realize that completely banning it is going to cost them, they’ll find out pretty quickly and back down.”

Categorical misunderstanding of who/what you are dealing with.

The sorts of people who believe in absolute or near absolute bans are not the sorts who are going to compromise. Ever.

Which pretty much guarantees they are also NOT the sort who will get into political power in numbers significant enough to matter or be in a position to compromise.

IOW compromise is and always was baked into the Dobbs cake.

That you do not see this is largely due to the machinations and rhetoric from the sort of people who write these sorts of articles.

[JasonT20]

IOW compromise is and always was baked into the Dobbs cake.

That is not what the reality of state actions over the last few months is showing us. We are not seeing "compromise" over abortion even in swing states or states with smaller partisan majorities. Florida's 15-week law may seem like a compromise, but it wasn't, since the state GOP that fully controls the government simply pushed through what it wanted over any and all opposition. DeSantis wouldn't give a straight answer in the recent debate about whether he would support going further than that if re-elected. Ohio's near-total ban is currently being blocked in state courts, but it was passed despite Ohio being a red-leaning state, rather than a solid red one (6 weeks is a near total ban because very few abortions actually take place within that time frame. Most women don't even know that they are pregnant at that point, so few would be able to arrange it by that limit).

[Agammamon]

So you're saying - despite all evidence to the contrary, that all Republicans support total bans?

And no Democrats support total bans on firearms?

[TJJ2000]

The Republican party would be FAR better off to just de-associate itself from the Pro-Life movement (which ironically was founded by Democrats favorite religious entity).

[ThomasD]

Easier to ask him what color the sky is in his world.

(And we all know how deeply invested TJJ2000 is in the success of the GOP.)

[TJJ2000]

It not going to do any good for the GOP to succeed if they can't keep their focus on Individual Liberty and Justice for all. I think it's important that the GOP isn't polluted by leftard's Power-Mad agenda's.

[JasonT20]

According to PRRI, Republicans are less likely than Democrats (21 percent as opposed to 35 percent, respectively) to only vote for candidates that share their views on abortion.

The problem with the way primaries are run in the U.S. is that the voters at the extremes of each party are much more likely to vote in primaries than people closer to the middle. That is why Republican candidates in solid Red states pretty much have to be strongly anti-abortion, even if less than a majority of Republican voters overall in those states have that view. Then, the rest of the Republican voters that are more flexible on abortion will still vote for those candidates in the general election because they share their views on things that are a higher priority to them (or they just really don't like Democrats on anything). And the same thing plays out among Democrats in Blue states and districts and for topics other than abortion where the reliable primary voters are more extreme than the party as a whole.

My suggestion is to do away with closed primaries entirely, and also use some form of ranked choice voting for primaries. Then the general election can be choice between two candidates that each had fairly broad support. It would have its own problems, and voters that currently get an outsized say in who gets nominated for their party wouldn't like it, but I think it would be worth trying (like Alaska is) to see if it does result in fewer "lesser of two evils" races.

[Agammamon]

Except we are seeing compromise.

For every state that is banning abortion one is openly supportive of it and the in-between states are setting in-between policies.

Compromise does not mean 'I get everything I want'.

[SQRLSY One]

Adolf said kill 6 million Jews! Let's compromise and kill only 3 million!

Rethugglicans said let's turn ALL women into womb-slaves! Let's compromise and turn only HALF of women into womb-slaves!

[TJJ2000]

^Exactly. Biggest problem with Pro-Life is it --refuses-- to recognize a Woman (Period) as a person. Instead it resorts to dehumanizing every Woman as just a [WE]-mobs-incubator (i.e. Just an Incubator of the State / personal enslavement)...

Until that Woman and her pregnancy can BOTH be separate **Individuals** (In-Divisible) its just [WE] Gov-GUN packing enslavement. And no amount of wishful thinking/propaganda (i.e. "It is a person"/unicorn) is going to change that.

If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-GUN FORCED reproduction.

The USA wasn't founded on some leftard principle that Gov-GUNS used against that person (Taking Individual Liberty) to save another was Justice. It's the old 'Ends' justifies the 'Means' stance.

[TJJ2000]

Humorously; The very mental defect induced by Democrats themselves. Their inability to recognize Individuals with PERSONAL Liberty/Lives and their compulsive belief that [WE] mobs of lock-step conformance only exists in the world by dictative Gov-GUN packing.

Being Pro-Choice (Pro-Individual-Liberty) does not mean that one has to give up their own beliefs in their PERSONAL life about what is/isn't in existence. It only means they can't KEEP THEIR F'EN NOSES out of other people's PERSONAL life and resist the urge to use MORE Gov-GUNS to FORCE their own beliefs onto others.

[RENATA the rational]

And finish it off: And INCREASING support among Democrats for restrictions on abortion
DFLA - Pro-Life for the Whole Life - Democrats For Life of ...https://www.democratsforlife.org
We are the preeminent national organization for whole life Democrats, promoting whole-life issues that protect human life at all of its stages.

[Roberta]

See, it's not just politicians who change their expressed opinion once what they said before looks feasible.

[Libertariantranslator]

The politicians who wrote the Second Amendment and the 13th Amendment weren't funded by tax-money transfers signed by Tricky Dick from Yorba Linda. Government paying voters to subsidize increasing the initiation of force was not as popular back then.

[NotForNoReason]

If by total you meant "literally" then I have to ask where you've been for... well ever! I don't think I've ever seen someone seriously argue that abortion should be banned in cases where the life of the mother is under serious threat! (which is not a contradiction and falls under basic right to self defense and preservation)

I really wish someone in media or politics loudly and publicly asked why every major national poll done on this issue (even specific ones that go into ridiculous secondary detail) refuse to actually ask anything more than vague "all/many cases or some/none" type questions. Even when the major issue of the moment is specific time/age limits. And then use the phantom huge all/many replies to make headlines like "most americans support a 'right to an abortion'" (which is used pretty much as code for "any time and for any reason")

[Ecoli]

+10^6.

Nobody in either political party is honest about this issue, nor does either want a rational resolution. I consider the media to be the propaganda wing of the Democrat party.

[Ecoli]

Color me surprised.

Now that SCOTUS has revoked the vile Roe decision, the abortion question is back in the hands of state legislators where it belongs.

I guess the state politicians are going to have to do their jobs, which is something they dread.

The Democrat party is joyous that Roe is overturned. Demagoguery today, demagoguery tomorrow, demagoguery foreveruh! Republican party has a sad face.

[TJJ2000]

Yeah; Individual Liberty shouldn't exist in any corner!!!! /s
Gov-GUNS gets to decide! /s

Perhaps Pro-Life indoctrinated and ruined Republicans of today and instead of admitting their mistake resort to State-Tyranny as an excuse.

[Moderation4ever]

I think this article speaks volumes about the wisdom of John Roberts. Justice Roberts would have used an incremental approach to find a point of consensus about laws restricting abortions.

[Libertariantranslator]

So Roberts would have let WOMEN vote on the issue without interference from rapists and girl-bulliers?

[Noorondoor]

Here's a good compromise. Ban abortions for whites and require it for blacks. Then everyone gets something they want!

[Ecoli]

Margaret Sanger approves this message.

[Libertariantranslator]

The assumption is that "everybody" seeks to maximize coercion.

[TJJ2000]

+1000000000000000 Excellent stated to-the-point...
The lost USA principle of *****Individual***** Liberty...

[Bart]

Never have understood the mentality of the "absolutely no abortion" crowd. I've grown up in what could be considered somewhat fundamentalist Christian churches (so far as doctrine is concerned, their practice is what you'd consider to be fairly mainstream) so usually speaking the "understood" line on abortion is that it was wrong no matter the circumstance.

However, outside of the walls of the church, most of the people I know in the church have usually have always had a more pragmatic approach to it. Real people know that a rape or incest victim may be traumatized to the point of where they don't want to have the child. Real people know that someone in their 20s or 30s with a full life ahead of them may not be willing to go to the grave to birth a child. Like many things, real people have a more nuanced opinion in the matter that gets lost amongst all of those people making the most noise on an issue.

[Tony]

It needs to be emphasized that there are not two equal and opposite positions on this issue. One side is libertarian and one side is big government. One side says the government shouldn't generally be involved in decisions about reproduction, and the other says that government knows better than mothers and doctors, and then only when right-wing religious nuts are in control of it.

Roe was never about picking one side over the other. It was about restricting government from picking for us. If you can't nut up and be a libertarian on the most bodily private issues human beings have, then you can shut the fuck up about your damn income tax rate.

[Libertariantranslator]

Tony the looter criticizes well. Trumpanzee-aping Nixon-funded Brazilians elected a girl-bullying MAGA caudillo-for-positive-christianity. That mystic proceeded with coercive policies to make Herbert Hoover, Nixon and the Bush Bozos pee themselves with glee. Brazilians voters, like Americans, soon noticed that mystical fascism hasn't changed since Orwell was shot through the throat. They just now threw the prig out on his ass and are once again dancing in the streets. Someday there will be a Brazilian Libertarian Party.

[TJJ2000]

OMFG.... All the sudden Tony believes in LIMITED government!!!
UR such a cliche of [MY] mob RULES.... 100% Partisan Politics.

[Liberty_Belle]

A fetus forms a parasitic relationship with it's host. It should be 100% up to the Host in question whether to allow or reject that relationship. Government has no place determining in a Host's body autonomy; this is a decision to be made by the Host and only the Host. Anything else is slavery. If the Host decides to reject that relationship, the fetus / embryo / whatever-buzz-word-we're-using will die since it can't survive without a Host ... until our science improves.

[M L]

Same as when you have kids and you are obligated by law to use your body, working tirelessly to care for those children who can't keep themselves alive. If you fail to perform what is required, that is criminal neglect. Happens all the time when Mom and Dad are drug addicts.

"An Iowa woman has been found guilty of murder after she left her dead infant son in a baby swing for two weeks. His diaper was infested with maggots and insects for days while he was still alive." https://www.newsweek.com/iowa-mom-left-dead-maggot-infested-baby-swing-two-weeks-1321597

[Liberty_Belle]

Apple to Oranges comparison. A child that is born is not using the Host's body. It's / his / her survival is not dependent on the body of the host, but upon the actions of a responsible person. Not to mention, the person responsible doesn't have to be the host.

[Libertariantranslator]

Republican prohibitionists have done away with all the drugs that aren't addictive and stupefying. It's as if stupefaction were part of the Grabbers Of Pussy platform...

[TJJ2000]

Humorously; There is no law requiring such as adoption is still legal.
Nice try with all those add-lib hoops you had to jump through.

[Cloudbuster]

The characterization of a child in utero as a parasite is so scientifically and morally bankrupt it doesn't rate a measured response.

[Libertariantranslator]

Here is Brazil's new President, the guy who beat the girl-bullying, queer-baiting, deadly-force Christian National Socialist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4ARHO6QaNw

[Cloudbuster]

Radical, leftist pro-abortion organization that operates under a thin veil of "religion" and "nonpartisan" claims (don't be fooled by the name or PR, just look at what they publish at prri.org ) conducts poll that supports its own position. Shocking!