Josh Hammer's Dangerous Misunderstanding of Liberalism
An interview between President Joe Biden and social media star Dylan Mulvaney offers a lesson in mutual forbearance.

In a recent column for The Spectator World, nationalist conservative Josh Hammer makes a revealing logical blunder. Seeing where his thinking goes wrong can help us understand why the New Right's defense of its own yen for power is so inadequate.
Hammer refers to an interview President Joe Biden recently gave with Dylan Mulvaney, a transgender social media star. In it, Mulvaney asks Biden whether "states should have a right to ban gender-affirming health care." Biden answers in the negative: "I don't think any state or anybody should have the right to do that," he says. "As a moral question and as a legal question. I just think it's wrong."
This, for Hammer, is a five-alarm-fire moment. If a majority of voters in a state want to forcibly prevent citizens from accessing transgender medical interventions (whether surgical or pharmaceutical), he thinks they should have the ability to do so. Biden, in contrast, thinks decisions involving such interventions should be, as Mulvaney put it, "just between me and my doctors." Hammer fumes in response:
In articulating his view that the "moral" (read: immoral) imperative to chemically castrate and hormonally bastardize vulnerable Americans is so great as to require removal of the issue from the realm of democratic politics, Biden paid faithful homage to the tenets of the woke catechism. If cultic wokeism is to be our new public orthodoxy, as the progressive faithful wish, then certain things must be legally mandated and certain things must necessarily be proscribed. Biden was only being candid with Mulvaney — his rejection of the foundational liberal paradigm of values-neutrality is emphatic and explicit.
The idea that Biden is rejecting values-neutrality with his answer gets things precisely backward. This becomes clearer if we learn to think of liberalism in terms not of neutrality but rather of mutual forbearance: In cases where fundamental rights are not at stake, I forgo using government power to force you to live the way I want and, in exchange, you forgo using government power to force me to live the way you want. That's the liberal settlement—and if either of us breaches it, liberal institutions will be there to hold us accountable.
It's fine to note that liberalism is not itself morally neutral, in the sense that it rests on implicit moral claims about, for example, all people deserving equal treatment under the law. (That value, thankfully, continues to be widely shared in our society.) But liberalism does insist that government decline to take sides on many other moral questions where there isn't an overwhelming consensus, such as whether Drag Queen Story Hour is a good or a bad thing.
Asked in the Mulvaney interview about one such contested question, Biden says state governments should stay out of it. Far from being a "mask-off moment," this is perfectly consistent with liberalism-as-forbearance.
Hammer goes wrong because he imputes additional beliefs to the president's answer. He assumes that Biden wants conservatives to forgo the use of state power to oppose the woke agenda—but that Biden would be all too happy for his own allies to use state power to impose woke orthodoxy on everyone else.
It's true that many on the activist left clearly do wish to use state power in this way. Principled liberalism requires that the president be just as opposed to those efforts as he is to efforts from the right. Forbearance for thee and power for me is not liberalism at all, and Biden's record leaves much to be desired on this score.
Nonetheless, when Biden is asked in the same interview what Democratic leaders should do to advance trans rights, he pointedly eschews calling for government action. Instead, he says the most important thing is "to be seen with people like" Mulvaney, to show regular Americans that there's nothing to be "fearful" of. The answer is reminiscent of a lesson learned in the 1990s and early 2000s by same-sex-marriage advocates, who famously discovered that voters became more sympathetic to their cause upon learning they had friends or family members who were gay.
Biden's is a thoroughly liberal response, one that appeals to persuasion rather than coercion—changing hearts and minds, not subjugating enemies through the use of state power. Watch the interview for yourself: You don't have to agree with the substance of Biden's views to recognize that his answer remains squarely within bounds. That Hammer manages to misread it as an "emphatic and explicit" rejection of liberal neutrality shows just how deeply confused he is about the ideas he purports to be an authority on.
But this is the New Right modus operandi. Ultimately, post-liberal conservatives want to seize power and use it against their political foes. Such a desire can be rationalized only if they can convince rational onlookers that the other side is on the brink of doing the same to them. Hammer is so desperate for an excuse to indulge his own authoritarian impulses that he finds existential threats even where they don't exist. Rising illiberalism is indeed a problem in our politics, but fatuous columns like Hammer's only make that problem worse.
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Tolerance is one thing; acceptance is another. You can let someone do something without interference, but you do not have to endorse it.
^This, and the distinction is all the more important when the discussion gets around to institutions, like governments and non-governmental organizations.
Governments enforce their rules at the point of a gun. Hence they should be as fully tolerant as possible-- with any concept of "acceptance" not even in the mix when it comes to matters of law.
NGOs-- religious institutions, environmental groups, hell even fraternities & sororities-- are the ones that should be discussing acceptance, what constitutes appropriate vs inappropriate behavior, and trying to encourage the appropriate with persuasion, shaming, credos or whatever.
Way too many on the far ends of the spectrum, both right and left, completely fail to see the distinction.
“Tolerance is one thing; acceptance is another.”
If it is not impacting anyone else you not only have to tolerate it, you have to accept that it exists in the world and people are doing it. No matter what “it” is. The alternative is illebiralism and government authoritarianism.
“but you do not have to endorse it”
No one is asking you to. If you don’t want to have an abortion, transition, go to a drag queen story hour, or marry someone of the same sex, you don’t have to. Nor do you have to endorse it. You can even speak out against it. You can even just ignore it.
If it is not impacting anyone else you not only have to tolerate it, you have to accept that it exists in the world and people are doing it.
No, societies tend to figure out what they'll both tolerate and accept.
No one is asking you to.
Your side isn't asking, it's demanding.
"No, societies tend to figure out what they’ll both tolerate and accept."
I agree. Our society has figured out that it is willing to tolerate all of the things I mentioned. And society doesn't have the ability to prevent things by refusing to accept they exist. Things that exist, but you don't like, don't just disappear in the face of your disapproval.
"Your side isn’t asking, it’s demanding."
Which "side" are you trying to tie me to? Because my "side" is the one that thinks your morality is your business, but isn't relevant to anyone else's life.
And no one is demanding you endorse anything. Your victim complex is showing.
i think the issue is when our tax dollars are used to fund events like drag queen story hour, or paying for people to get transition surgeries, or when things like this are being taught to our kids in schools.
The idea that Biden is rejecting values-neutrality with his answer gets things precisely backward.
I stopped here. The only way to correctly understand the orientation of the argument is to know Mulvaney’s orientation. Fuck specific ambiguity and your disingenuous support of it.
“states should have a right to ban gender-affirming health care” <- simultaneously and very methodically and overtly includes and does not include “subsidizing gender-affirming healthcare for minors as young as birth at the behest of the state”. You may not think it includes that, you may think it does. But that all relies on the genuine nature of Mulvaney and Biden’s character. And fuck you for asserting it onto others on their behalf.
Yeah, my only real addition here is that one can get to the argument Slade makes by taking a very, very thin slice of a discussion and reading from there. I don't know Mulvaney, but Biden's general movement is more complicated then "government shouldn't have a say."
I don’t know Mulvaney,
Even people who are exceedingly pro-trans are very much "Is this guy a troll or an attention-whore [my words] lost in their own cult of personality?"
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Isn't that the standard question for any social media "influencer"?
Yeah that was mine too. How does Slade square this with say Bidens attempt to mandate experimental vaccines by executive order; one of the most illiberal actions taken by a president in my lifetime (and that says something).
Oh geez - enough already about the "experimental vaccine" trope. You right-wing anti-science types annoy the bejeesus out of me.
You're right. From 'the vaccine stops the virus in its tracks' to 'the vaccine doesn't stop the spread of the virus', the experiment is conclusive; failure.
Fuck off you authoritarian cunt. There was never any science to your beloved mandates unless you consider medical Lysenkoism as legitimate science. Their pronouncements from day 1 flew in the face of established science for political purposes and went downhill from there.
Let me guess, you've never outgrew the tooth fairy.
And you clearly never outgrew diapers.
You would die instead of being told what to do?
Your freedom end where everybody else's starts, you're not the center of the universe, no matter how many times you do the kamehameha crap.
Remain disappointed, bitch.
...except the "vaccine" did not stop transmission at all and didn't really protect against infection to any appreciable degree...
"Bidens attempt to mandate experimental vaccines by executive order"
LOL! Yes, everyone was forced to get a vaccine. they held everyone down and injected them without their consent. That's why the public influence campaigns trying to convince people to get one were necessary. And mRNA vaccine technology that has been around since 1961 is apparently still "experimental".
So if you refused to get the vaccine, what happened? If your answer isn't "They gave it to me anyway", anything Biden did or said was irrelevant. You weren't forced, you had a choice. And millions of people chose not to get the vaccine.
And if 60 years of research and testing isn't enough for you, there are a lot of medical treatments that you would consider "experimental" that are commonly used. Proton therapy, antiretroviral drugs, and the vast majority of psychiatric medications to name just a few. If they are also "experimental", you had better hope you don't get cancer. Most modern treatments were invented after nRNA technologies.
"one of the most illiberal actions taken by a president in my lifetime"
Vaccine requirements for participation are illiberal actions? So your kid's school? Or the US Army? Or medical care facilities? Or Nana's Thanksgiving dinner?
Like the comment said above, you don't have to do it nor like it. But you do have to accept that a wide range of vaccine requirements exist in the world.
LOL! Yes, everyone was forced to get a vaccine.
Did you happen to miss that he did just that for federal workers?
And mRNA vaccine technology that has been around since 1961 is apparently still “experimental”.
Here's where the red herring comes in. These shots weren't anything like what might have been made in "1961," and you fucking know it. But you sure are fucking lying that it's the same thing here.
Proton therapy, antiretroviral drugs, and the vast majority of psychiatric medications to name just a few.
Funny how your side had a shit fit about ivermectin.
Vaccine requirements for participation are illiberal actions? So your kid’s school? Or the US Army? Or medical care facilities? Or Nana’s Thanksgiving dinner?
LOL, guess that's why New York just got its shit pushed in about firing all those sanitation workers, and Pfizer admitted the shot didn't stop transmission.
"Did you happen to miss that he did just that for federal workers?"
No, the vaccine was a requirement for people to work for the federal government. There are many things that are required of workers by their employers. People who don't want to do those things are free to refuse to accept those things. They just have to work for someone else.
Choices have consequences. If you choose not to get it, no one will jab you without your consent. But you'll have to find another job.
"These shots weren’t anything like what might have been made in “1961,"
No, they aren't. Because they have undergone decades of testing and research. They are better now than when they were invented. That's called medical research and the reason why calling them "experimental" or "unproven" is nonsense.
Anti-vax was the only far-left conspiracy theory that could rise to the level of Q-Anon, the Big Lie, and the Lost Cause. And the far right loves batshit crazy things so much they co-opted it.
"Funny how your side had a shit fit about ivermectin."
Ivermectin is different because, unlike the things I listed, it doesn't do anything for Covid. Trying to force doctors to prescribe it is what the problem was.
"LOL, guess that’s why New York just got its shit pushed in about firing all those sanitation workers"
Yeah, they should have just fired them. People who think they aren't subject to the same rules as everyone else aren't worth employing.
Wow, it just doesn’t phase you at all that the vaccine didn’t do at all what the promised. That they knowingly lied about it repeatedly. And That it was a massive over step of the governments authority to even try the mandates. You’re just going to stick with the news and data as it existed mid 2021. Mad respect.
It doesn’t phase me at all that the vaccine didn’t do everything the anti-vaxxers say it claimed to do. I actually learned about what it was actually supposed to do before I got it (plus all the side effects, which are neither as severe or as common as the lunatic fringe claims.
Rage and froth all you want, people who looked into it in detail while making their decision know that making medical decisions based on your politics is a stupid thing to do.
if you are in the military you generally signa 4 year contract, if you did not want the vaccine you were not simply allowed to finish your contract or to even void it, you were administratively separated from the military with all the negative repercussions that comes with. meaning a other than honorable discharge, ineligible for most veterans benefits, and a huge stain on your resume which means no more government jobs and can make it very difficult even in the private sector. it didn't matter if you had served 1 year or 30, or if you were months away from retirement, if you didn't want the vaccine they would keep you in long enough to process you out with all of the negative repercussions.
Wait, choices can be hard? And sometimes you have to do things you'd prefer not to because your job requires it? I am shocked!
Tell me, was this outcome explained in the contract they signed? Does the contract allow the military to discharge service members before the contract is up? Did they receive numerous other fetal-cell-tested vaccines? When they were deployed to a new area with different diseases, were they required to get more vaccines?
The answer to all of those questions is yes. So if they made a choice that lost them the benefits and the advantages of being a veteran with an honorable discharge, the responsibility is theirs. Some personal responsibility would be refreshing, but not likely, from those who make their medical decisions based on their politics, not medicine.
"How does Slade square this with say Bidens attempt to mandate experimental vaccines by executive order; one of the most illiberal actions taken by a president in my lifetime (and that says something)."
She squares it by writing: "Forbearance for thee and power for me is not liberalism at all, and Biden's record leaves much to be desired on this score."
I mean, fuck you. Even if you brought the receipts and Mulvaney were honestly "states should not have a right to ban gender-affirming health care... for adults... with consent... on their own dime... as treatment for a diagnosable and treatable condition" or whatever, the assumption that that's what Biden, even in the clearest of dementia-addled states, is agreeing to is almost certainly a lie and, at best, reluctant approval of his actual 'sic the FBI on the transphobic parents at PTO meetings' *stance*, not statement.
"simultaneously and very methodically and overtly includes and does not include “subsidizing gender-affirming healthcare for minors as young as birth at the behest of the state”."
What is wrong with you? No one is talking about government subsidies. No one is talking about surgically transitioning a baby fresh from the womb. No one is talking about transitioning anyone who hasn't expressed the desire to do so.
How does a sane person even get from what Biden said to government subsidies for unasked-for surgical transitions of newborns?
There's a midterm election coming up. If mandatory surgical transitions for newborns can't get votes, then the election will be a fraud.
Sweet Gaslighting.
You’re suggesting the party that wants all healthcare to be subsidized aren’t including gender transition costs? Are you familiar with equity? You do realize not only will those costs be subsidized they will take precedent over a cis white male getting a heart transplant.
Or what about that bill in Virginia that effectively tries to define NOT helping transition a child as child abuse.
An effective barometer for progressive outcomes is to just look at Britain or Europe. Heck, you’ve already had a person in Belgium who got their subsidized gender reassignment AND subsidized euthanasia when it didn’t work out for them.
in my experience every time I hear the argument from the Left that "no one is trying to do X..." I just wait a couple years and suddenly I'm a bigot once again for even suggesting that X isn't perfectly normal and should be celebrated.
The proof is in the pudding. Biden is paying lip service to proper liberalism in this one regard, and that’s about it. If Biden thought he could possibly use government power to force everyone to get covid vaccines, get christians to put gay porn on cakes, or confiscate all guns, he would try. If someone else tried to use state or local power to do it, he would support it, by any financial or rhetorical means he could. Biden only holds his tongue on this particular “healthcare” issue because he knows the vast majority of people don’t agree with, or would even be angered by the true Democrat position of turning as many kids as possible into blue-haired eunuchs.
While Hammer may be wrong in the sense that two wrongs don’t make a right, he’s on point when it comes to why he’s willing to break bad. We’ve endured over a hundred years of slippery slopes when it comes to capitalism, property rights, and the Bill of Rights. The time is past when we could all just try to maintain the status quo with the silent majority. Simply holding the line will not get the job done anymore. We need push back to previous human norms. Two-parent homes, kids that actually learn in school, neighbors that care for one another, etc. If I have to choke down some Republican blowhards forcing prayer in schools, dry Sundays, and sacremental sperm to make this country strong again, so be it.
How is "choking down some"..."Republican blowhards"..."sacremental sperm" going to make the country strong again?
Has Sevo posted today?
The Pelosi home in SF was the location of some berserk Trumptard looking to attack the Speaker.
We know it wasn't you because the age gap works in the wrong direction.
A few years back you posted kiddy porn to this site, and your initial handle was banned. The link below details all the evidence surrounding that ban. A decent person would honor that ban and stay away from Reason. Instead you keep showing up, acting as if all people should just be ok with a kiddy-porn-posting asshole hanging around. Since I cannot get you to stay away, the only thing I can do is post this boilerplate.
https://reason.com/2022/08/06/biden-comforts-the-comfortable/?comments=true#comment-9635836
So, because it is impossible to actually post any pictures here, what you're referring to must have been a hyperlink. Which you must have clicked in order to have determined the illegal nature of the linked image(s). In so doing, you intentionally downloaded the image(s) onto your own computer. Which is a serious crime in most states and countries.
Maybe you can say you were only doing "research"...
Follow the link, it's reason.com.
Pay attention.
' Which you must have clicked in order to have determined the illegal nature of the linked image(s).' Perhaps if you knew what you were talking about before posting, you would seem less ignorant and less stupid and less biased. Though it's difficult to say.
Kill yourself you pedofile
Where's Nancy? Where's Nancy?
Probably out establishing her alibi.
Except your hours late and it turns out the attacker is a Progressive who's been part of 'nude Castro protests'.
Actually the latest—with strikingly convenient timing—is that he is. J6/QAnon racist! (I posted the link on ENB’s Musk piece.)
The latest is that he's a far left anti-Semitic whackjob - plenty of those are 'election deniers' (Stacey Abrams anyone?) And Qtards.
The latest is that he is an illegal named Maxwell Edison majoring in medicine. When Pelosi 31 said 'We've caught a dirty one', Maxwell stood alone. There's a silver hammer in there somewhere too.
By "Trumptard" do you mean "Nancy Pelosi's lover"?
Oh, you mean the prototypical drugged up deranged SF homeless friend of Paul?
I suggest less Washington Post, and more listening to the 911 call.
This entire article is bullshit. Like Mulvaney, Slade is misrepresenting the right's (and the majority of sane Americans) position on transgender issues.
The right's position is not that "gender affirming care" should be banned. The position is that "gender affirming care" FOR MINORS should be banned. Adults are free to pump themselves full of whatever hormones they want, or chop off or add on whatever body parts they want; you just can't do those things to children. It's a legal and moral argument regarding CHILDREN, because parents have rights, but they also have responsibilities regarding the upbringing and care of their children. These procedures are irreversible and result in irreparable harm to children, and there's no evidence that they are effective at reducing negative outcomes for kids with gender dysphoria- including suicide. There's mounting evidence that most children with gender dysphoria resolve on their own or with therapy, and that "gender affirming care" causes irreversible damage to them, including mutilated bodies and infertility, once they've grown out of their gender dysphoria issues.
Nobody cares what transgender adults do to themselves. The right has no interest in preventing transgendered individuals from realizing their civil rights- they just don't have the right to groom and mutilate children.
These fucking ghouls will do and say anything to avoid having to argue against the evidence.
Thank you for saving me the trouble. It is amazing how they quibble and misrepresent clear statements to pretend to forget they ever abhorred female genital mutilation so they can support its woke counterpart.
The position is that “gender affirming care” FOR MINORS should be banned. Adults are free to pump themselves full of whatever hormones they want, or chop off or add on whatever body parts they want; you just can’t do those things to children.
Better, but even from a libertarian standpoint, I disagree. Even along your own example; if *an adult* comes into the doctor's office, says "My breasts are uncomfortable.", gets a full mastectomy, and turns around says, "My chest is still uncomfortable, your treatment doesn't work and you know it. That's malpractice!" are they wrong? I'd say the state has at least some obligation to punish or remunerate there.
Moreover, the issue is far worse than that. As has been repeatedly demonstrated, Mulvaney's (team's) position isn't just 'live and let live', it's gender science *is* science and, more critically, the opposition, right, left, or center is inhuman for not respecting their science as reality and law construct.
I disagree with your first point because adults are not only capable of informed consent, they have a certain amount of reaponsibility WRT the "informed" part of that. As an adult, your outcomes are largely your own responsibility. If you choose to get the mastectomy without seeking a second opinion or doing any additional research on it, it's partially your responsibility. If the doc acted in bad faith or negligence, then sure, he's liable.
Agree in full to the second part.
If the doc acted in bad faith or negligence, then sure, he’s liable.
“Your breasts make you feel uncomfortable? Here let me refer you to our in-network psychiatrist, they specialize in body dysmorphias.”
My kid was diagnosed with ADHD in the 3rd grade. Mrs. Casual is very pragmatic about ‘go along to get along’ and is/was willing to accept that I would neither facilitate nor participate but I would not obstruct and act as the ‘out’. Even *she* was a bit put off by the fact that, from the school psychologist to the two behavioral psychiatrists and the neurologist, the only person who wasn’t a clear-as-day textbook medicated/ADHD basket case, far worse than our son, was the neurologist, and all he did was pick the drug, calculate the dose, and write the script.
And, by “some obligation to punish or remunerate”, I was trying to make clear I’m not necessarily saying outright ban and police, that the government is obligated to protect the medical community from political activism as much as it is to protect the public from quackery. Buck v. Bell is still the law of the land and several states chemically castrate sex offenders. I don’t think either one is perfectly correct, but would agree that 50 separate experiments is better than one.
I read the article, opened notepad and started typing '...This article is total bullshit....' but didn't need to post after reading yours! Author has to be mentally unbalanced, TDS, etc., to write such nonsense.
What's particularly notable about this particular social gaslighting is the assertion that the only "gender -affirming care" that's appropriate here is to "affirm" that someone is the opposite gender that biology gave them, and pull out all the stops to ensure they permanently alter their bodies to be that new gender. There's NO mention whatsoever about helping people affirm the gender they are actually born as. Nope, only "transformative change" is at play here.
It's not hard to understand why they're doing this--notably, that it ensures white people, and white males in particular, are alienated enough to reject their "privilege" and offer them a chance to secure a place in the marxist stack--but that doesn't mean it should be enabled by society. People need to learn to deal with reality, not craft a new one out of thin air just because a bunch of neurotic leftists think life is unfair, and want as many people as possible to be as miserable and self-absorbed as they are.
And yes, Mulvaney is a fucking nutcase. He actually thinks, assuming he's not pulling some giant troll psyop, that he's not just a transgender female, but a transgender female girl--as in, a female minor. This is modern transhumanism taken to its dumbest extent.
Seriously, tell me why I cant identify as an African American, and assert that I get all of the victim goodies they are entitled to.
I have much more in common genetically, and especially physiologically, to a black guy than Mulvaney has to a female child/teen/tween.
That the fucking POTUS is giving a platform to this insanity really shows we are through the looking glass. Like you have nothing better to do? Sitting down with a unfortunate mentally ill headcase and pandering to the tranny community? This is something that the leader of the free world spends his time doing?
Genetically you are identical to an African American. Whatever percentage of your genome determines your skin color has to be miniscule. You can't identify as a black person. That is RACIST. But you can identify as a woman even though you are genetically much different from one.
Leftists believe in SCIENCE, except for that stuff about genes and chromosomes. That is just bullshit.
Did Biden sniff his hair or not? That's the true test.
"There’s NO mention whatsoever about helping people affirm the gender they are actually born as,"
There is mention of it- they call it "conversion therapy," in order to evoke images of gay conversion therapy.
There is mention of it- they call it “conversion therapy,” in order to evoke images of
gay conversion therapybrainwashing, electroshock therapy, and effective torture, that they can project on what is, effectively, positive affirmation therapy.FIFY
Pulling the same trick ENB and the other leftists do with abortion. Representing the argument as "Republicans all want to 100% ban it and not allow it ever, in any way or form" massively misrepresents the issue.
Especially with this issue, the majority of Americans (including a majority of Dems) find themselves in the "to each his own, but leave the kids alone" camp. Just like in abortion, the majority are actually in the "reasonable restrictions, somewhere around 1st trimester" camp. But they know they are losing the argument, so they have to pretend the counter argument is 100% fully illegal for all adults, an argument that is non-existent in terms of the trans stuff, and in terms of abortion the small minority (13%ish) position.
But its much easier to argue against a strawman.
In the current system, minors are the property of adults who get to make decisions regarding their care. The government doesn't get to ban it.
In a Libertarian system, arbitrary age-of-consent laws would be abolished so parental consent would not be required unless the institution providing care requests it.
Okay, groomer.
LOL, you're not fooling anyone with that sockpuppet, shriek, you hicklib pederast.
Right, so you're pro sexual exploitation and mutilation of children as long as their parents do it for clout. God you leftists are evil.
"The right’s position is not that “gender affirming care” should be banned. The position is that “gender affirming care” FOR MINORS should be banned."
Of course. You don't want to legislate a ban on a procedure. You want to ban that procedure for people you don't know and substitute your personal beliefs (informed by no facts of the case whatsoever) for that of parents, doctors, and patients. No, that isn't authoritarian and illiberal at all.
Acknowledging trans and gay people? Parents (but only the "right" ones) should decide. Books available in schools? Parents (but only the "right" ones) should decide. Abortion decisions by teens? Parents (but only the "right" ones) should decide. Medical treatment for minors? Parents should decide (except for situations that the "right" ones don't like, then parents shouldn't decide).
The kindest assessment is that cultural conservatives are hypocrites. The more accurate one is that cultural conservatives are illiberal.
"because parents have rights, but they also have responsibilities regarding the upbringing and care of their children"
Yes. And they take those responsibilities seriously, which is why medical and psychological professionals are included in the decision. And why social and hormonal transitioning is what minors do, not surgical. And why shrieking busybodies like you with no information have no place in the decision.
"There’s mounting evidence that most children with gender dysphoria resolve on their own or with therapy"
Not true, unless you believe ignorant moralistic ideologues telling each other what they already believe counts as "evidence". That's not how evidence works.
"that “gender affirming care” causes irreversible damage to them, including mutilated bodies and infertility, once they’ve grown out of their gender dysphoria issues"
Almost no one "grows out of it". The stats on that are pretty unambiguous, although it's still early days on this research. 5 year and 10 year satisfaction is well above 90%, but maybe they'll have a sudden change of heart, en masse, in another decade.
Please stop with your fake concern and handwringing about the fate of the children. You don't know them, you don't know their lives, you don't know their minds, and you certainly don't care about their mental or physical health. You're the caricature of the concern troll running around screaming, "Won't someone think of the children! Am I the only one?".
The right wants to ban the things they object to in society. It always has. It always will. As society leaves behind the sad, feeble, restrictions traditionalism of the past, the only way to prevent people from leaving is to force them not to leave through legislation.
If your ideas were good, you wouldn't need to force people to follow them.
And we have certain states looking to ban anything but "gender affirming" care, which means banning trying to find ways to have people with dysphoria live with their bodies unaltered.
Gender dysphoria is still a little understood phenomenon and the science surrounding it is at best controversial, much less how to treat it in sensible manner.
Can you tell me which states? Because I have never heard any such thing.
Unless you are equating conversion therapy, which is, at best, pseudoscientific nonsense and at worst physical and psychological torture, with actial psychological treatment.
I could see you doing something that dishonest.
Now do gun rights for minors.
So, wait, Slade is old enough to actually remember classical liberalism? Boy, did they just wake up out of a coma or something? That school of thought is dead and buried.
It sure is, here.
Everywhere, really, except for a few 'Dinosaur' leftists that are looking more right wing by the day as their own party shoves them out the door.
That school of thought is dead and buried.
I know, right? Dead white slave owners. Can't believe we didn't pull down their statues sooner. Yuck!
Is there any more obvious trannie tell than the adams-apple-obscuring neck accessory? Chokers, scarves, etc. Might as well just wear a sandwich board that says "I have/had a penis" in big red letters.
Is there any more obvious trannie tell than the adams-apple-obscuring neck accessory?
You mean other than months of social media fame for posting "I'm a trannie who hasn't had "Barbie Wallet" [quote not mine] surgery yet!"?
Michael Lind, so maybe he knows this subject just as well as he does libertarianism. The upshot is he predicts the classical liberal response and skewers its inadequacy. I wouldn't have figured him as carrying bricks for the national conservatives, but his love of big govt doesn't fail him.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/new-gatekeepers-woke-michael-lind
In isolation, the transgender controversy might have been viewed as a strange aftershock of the gay rights movement
What an odd statement.
Even more bizarre is the claim that the political right is to blame for the actions of the political left, as if Republicans being for private enterprise is somehow to blame for woke leftists taking over all those private 'gatekeepers' that are 'totally unregulated'.
Seems like a mess of garbage thinking to me.
Seems like a mess of garbage thinking to me.
It is Michael Lind talking. So, yeah that is a pretty sure bet.
The word choices in that article scream 'I want to be taken seriously as an academic, but don't actually understand anything at all'.
Like I said, he basically preps the ground for national conservatives as the most rational response and doesn't seem to quite grasp that. Big govt for goodness!
True. Their 'solution', as near as I can tell, is nationalize everything and put everything under government control because for some unknown reason government is uniquely immune to things like trans-activists...despite clear and obvious evidence to the contrary RE: the Democrat party.
>>social media star Dylan Mulvaney
this knucklehead isn't even the flavor of the week
Ok, this article I have to read... word for word.
Mulvaney asks Biden whether "states should have a right to ban gender-affirming health care." Biden answers in the negative: "I don't think any state or anybody should have the right to do that," he says. "As a moral question and as a legal question. I just think it's wrong."
Well, for starters... while I'm sure you could find someone who's arguing that, I can speak from someone who's kind of "there" when it comes to this cultural phenomenon (in that my youtube feed is absolutely littered with intellectual debates on the transgender issues from both small-c conservative types and classical liberal leftists such as "spiked-online" writers, some of whom are hallowed Reason contributors) and I can tell you with a high degree of certainty, no one is suggesting any such thing.
This is... what I believe to be a reasonable definition of gaslighting here.
I shall add more comments as I can digest.
Why is everyone here conflating classical liberalism with left liberalism? When the hell did THAT happen?!
Usually, it's hard to put a finger on exactly these sort of changes. However, in this case:
When: 4.8.2016 10:49 AM
Who: Jacob Sullum
What:
Where: https://reason.com/2016/04/08/ted-cruz-comes-out-against-liberal-democ/
Why: Because Reason loves Trump, Anthony Weiner, Eliot Spitzer, Chuck Rangel, Women, Old Folks, and Liberal Democracy so much that they would sacrifice all of them in order to keep a demagogic, womanizing, pedophilic lockdown-crazy, Liberal-Democracy-hater like Ted Cruz from getting control of them.
In cases where fundamental rights are not at stake, I forgo using government power to force you to live the way I want and, in exchange, you forgo using government power to force me to live the way you want. That’s the liberal settlement—and if either of us breaches it, liberal institutions will be there to hold us accountable.
Please use this same rationalization for pedophilia. Jeff and shrike need an ally.
What you are ignorantly ignoring is the 3rd person involved. It isnt just the parent and the doctor. But a child who does not have the rationality or understanding of making a life altering decision. One whose brain is malleable, much of the drugs being introduced when they still believe in a fucking Easter bunny.
The fact that you ignore the victim in this case is disturbing. There are historical records of kids willingly sacrificing themselves to the gods in ancient cultures. Is this practice fine if a parent, child, and shaman agree?
What infantile rationalization.
"Is this practice fine if a parent, child, and shaman agree?"
"Did you go to Shaman school, and are you an expert on Shaman things? No? OK cool, maybe lets let the experts (Parents/Shaman) decide if they want to proceed with human sacrifice" - Jeff
also where the fuck are women to put this idiot down?
That is another amazing thing about this article. Slade is a woman and so beholden to leftist culture she praises what amounts to a black face routine. He is not a woman Stephanie. Saying he is an insult to pretty much the entire human race.
It's good to know that men are so great that they can fully understand everything about what it is to be a woman to the extent that they can actually become one and be better at it than a natural born woman.
Turns out women are super uncomplicated and easy to understand, just like men were saying back in the 1940's and 1950's. Who knew that it was so easy to utterly annihilate feminism and salt the earth below it!
makeup + Chanel + crying = chick
And Divine was an impeccable female impersonator. I was shocked when I found out later that Divine wasn't even really a female!
Polyester forever!! (And fret not, Cuddles was a female!)
It’s good to know that men are so great that they can fully understand everything about what it is to be a woman to the extent that they can actually become one and be better at it than a natural born woman.
After a handful of months no less. Mulvaney has been stumbling with the closeted gay/out narrative for years but only gained ‘fame’ in the last several months around the time of transitioning.
There’s a video where he, after two month of being a woman, goes out to buy and opens up a packet of feminine hygeine products ‘for the first time’. Dude, as a guy in his mid-40s who’s lived with/around women for over 2 decades and, as the father of sons, can only imagine what the father of a family full of daughters must go through, grow the fuck up.
It's actually pretty funny. Especially considering Briggs' comment about 'black face'. The feminist vanguard at pretty much every wave has denounced Mulvaney and the visit as insulting in pretty much those terms and Slade, for some reason and in this instance, chooses to avoid the Kultur War BS that actually unites feminists, centrists, and conservatives and go with a near fully synthetic libertarian/classical liberal narrative.
Slightly more nuanced, but about as bad as "Ted Cruz hates Classical Liberalism".
They're not allowed because that would be transphobic and such talismans still work on the more agreeable sex.
It is downright creepy how the reason staff adopts the Orwellian language of the left. Gender affirming care? Are you fucking kidding me? It is not gender affirming care. It is chemical and surgical self mutilation. Call it what it is. It is chemical castration, hormone and puberty blocking, double mastectomies' and the removal and mutilation of the person's genitals.
Also note how Slade accepts the underlying assumptions of the left; that there is such a thing affirming someone's gender. The whole article, in addition to being pure sophistry, is the worst sort of Orwellian doublespeak.
So uhh...what should we call clipping off the clitoris in service of a religious right? Religious Affirming Care?
Asking for a friend.
It's stunning how the some of the same people (rightly) opposed to female genital mutilation (FGM) have somehow become proponents of doing the same to minors in our own country as "gender affirming care".
(rightly) opposed to female genital mutilation (FGM)
I'd even disagree to that. To appease religious convictions/traditions, some of the more progressive but pragmatic Muslims adopted unstudded/obstructed genital piercings (nick the labia with a scalpel removing no tissue). Some even opposed that as mutilation.
I wouldn't guarantee that every last person who's opposed genital piercing supported/supports transgender therapy but the magnitude of illogical swing from 'shall not pierce' to 'wholly amputate and functionally destroy' almost inevitably contains some.
That is done to enforce a morality I disagree with; this other thing is to enforce a morality I agree with.
That seems to be the rationale.
Foreskin too. Circumcision is as much genital mutilation as "bottom surgery". If adults want that, I don't really care. But when you start cutting kids (whether its because your personal skydaddy told you to or because you think cutting off body parts is progressive)... yeah, anyone who supports cutting kids for non-medically necessary reasons is scum.
"Circumcision is as much genital mutilation as “bottom surgery”."
Removing entire genitalia > snipping foreskin. Your atheism is causing your logic to short-circuit.
So its not genital mutilation if you only cut off a little bit?
Next you'll be saying it isn't taxation if the Govt only takes a tiny bit of your income.
No. In this case there is scientific reasoning behind it that helps with all kids. And it isnt solely due to feels.
Your more accurate comparison is castration for castratos for singing and religion.
Oxford Dictionary. Definition of mutilation: the infliction of serious damage on something.
Merriam-Webster.com: The meaning of MUTILATION is an act or instance of destroying, removing, or severely damaging a limb or other body part of a person or animal.
You said, "is as much"; meaning the same or equal. These 2 things are NOT the same. Circumcision is not serious damage. In fact, there are many benefits to circumcision, aside from it being a religious act. Whereas, bottom surgery is the act of COMPLETELY removing a persons genitalia.
Again, step away from your hatred of God and examine the facts. Your statement is completely false.
Your statement is completely false.
Not just false but, celebration parallax and salutory contradiction, a knowingly given negative affirmation, a lie in defense of no good outcomes, evil.
"The state shouldn't be able to ban genital mutilation unless they're banning circumcision, and then I'm all for it." -> "I don't really care about genital mutilation or circumcision as much as I care about destroying the 1A/freedom of religion in defense of returning to virgin sacrifices."
The generous interpretation is that he's just willfully stupid.
Next you’ll be saying it isn’t taxation if the Govt only takes a tiny bit of your income.
I know you really, really want to defend sterilizing little girls, but it turns out that your parents setting aside some of your earnings for college is not, in fact, taxation.
"Circumcision is as much genital mutilation as “bottom surgery”."
Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahaaha
Probably should've just taken an aspirin instead of undergoing a lobotomy there, groomer.
the equivalent being "cutting barbies split ends" = the same as "decapitating barbie"
Really embarrassing that this person thought this was a rational argument
The person in the picture looks like a robot.
Defective output from Stepford?
Not at all coincidentally, he looks like one of the Wayans brothers in 'White Chicks'.
Evolution affirms your gender Reason. You can as an adult deny reality and immitate the other gender and god bless you..as long as I don't have to pay for cheer you on, I don't GAF.
But this is really about kids and you know it. The man dressed and acting like a teen age girl was about having the govt get involved with the pedo community to target confused kids. The whole "trans kid" thing is mostly created by the groomer community. Confused kids who don't fit in (not good at sports, maybe fat or homely, not good at anything) used to be goths, then emos..now the craze is "trans." Most will outgrow it..by no means should puberty blockers (just creating what pedos want) or surgical mutilation be allowed on kids. I get many of the folks at Reason are gay but this has nothing to do with your sexual preference..this is about sick sick people targeting kids.
as long as I don’t have to
pay forcheer you on, I don’t GAFIf you are cheering, by choice or not, whether you pay or not, you are literally GAF.
Now how about the states that ban "gay conversion therapy"?
That's different. Progressive dislike it, so it's okay to ban.
Am I going to have to lose respect for every blogger here? I thought you were good, Ms. Slade, but here you're willfully blind to the real issue of child abuse involved. This is not about the freedom of adults to adopt these poses or even to alter their bodies, it's about parents getting their children to make strange and life-altering decisions while they're still minors.
"it’s about parents getting their children to make strange and life-altering decisions while they’re still minors."
Even worse. It's about allowing minors to make these life-altering decisions AT ALL. Progressives are happy to let children make these decision even while the parents object!
And it's also BS when Progressives say we should have no say, but they clearly want us to pay. You cannot have it both ways.
Many of the libertarians on Reason take that attitude: open borders, legalized drugs, free sex… while tax payers pick up the cost.
And libertarianism doesn’t have a single answer on whether parents should be allowed to mutilate their children or not. In fact, libertarianism tends to leave such decisions to social and political communities that people are voluntarily members of.
"Dylan Mulvaney offer a lesson in mutual forbearance."
If Mulvaney painted his face black you'd be outraged Slade. It's 'woman-face' that he's doing.
How's your 'Barbie pouch'?
Barbie pouching – n. A celebratory dance akin to tea bagging except done explicitly to woman by an anatomical man wearing a dress.
It really would be so fucking epic if Mulvaney turned out to be a troll. A half century of ‘women are, on average, smarter than men’ and ‘anything men can do women can do better’ buried under a huge sloppy deuce and flushed down the toilet.
Slade’s discussion isn’t even wrong, it is laughable, unmoored from any libertarian or rational foundations.
The bee, as always, delivering:
https://babylonbee.com/news/man-pretending-to-be-woman-visits-man-pretending-to-be-president
It’s because of stuff like this that Elon Musk’s takeover of Twitter is a TOTAL APOCALYPSE!!! He’ll let those guys back on! And people will laugh at us!
So now Reason writers are the experts on liberalism? Well we all know they are liberals and not libertarians.
There is also a difference between trying to stop trans operations on children who are to young, inexperienced and not mature enough to make such a life changing decision. When it comes to adults as a libertarian I don’t care, as long as you don’t ask me to pay for it or to support your lunacy with chosen pronouns.
“In it, Mulvaney asks Biden whether “states should have a right to ban gender-affirming health care.””
And the answer, as in so many cases, is “It depends”.
I got no problem with an adult doing whatever to their bodies. On the other hand, if a 10-year-old is going through a phase and wants to physically transition, and the parents agree or encourage, I’d ban that type of "gender-affirming health care".
Biden = authoritarian.
Authoritarianism = Force
Force = Violence.
Okay, but that in no way correctly describes Biden’s view on anything.
There was no mention of the age of the patient. Because of that, the whole article is mute.
You mean it's moo.
Arguendo, let's assume there is no 13th Amendment.
If white citizens of a state wanted to enslave all blacks in the state and if the white citizens of the state had a majority, would it be OK to return the state's black population to slavery?
It is worth noting that Biden like Hammer is an unabashed supporter of Zionist genocide against the native Palestinians in stolen Palestine.
Biden is far more disgusting than Hammer because Biden was lead Senate sponsor of 18 U.S. Code § 1091 - Genocide.
[“This Act [enacting this chapter] may be cited as the ‘Genocide Convention Implementation Act of 1987 (the Proxmire Act)’.” I was still a Zionist at the time and worked for the "Lobby". We did all we could to stop enactment of this law.]
Biden is an attorney and should understand that he supports the ongoing commission by US citizens of a US federal capital crime. He has probably heard of aiding, abetting, and material support but considers a US Zionist to be immune to US federal law.
Slade misses, deliberately or no, in her argument that biden is correctly liberal, that biden ignores individual rights. She also avoids any meaningful discussion of why this answer from the nominal head of the federal government on states' laws is an issue. Other folks have already commented on the lack of detail involved in the question and answer, who, at what age, are funds coming from taxpayers. This piece is not up to Slade's typical standards, but sadly it is what one has come to expect from reasonmag.
I've spend a day or so thinking about this article.
This is Reason's dangerous misunderstanding of what the debate is about.
This is Reason’s dangerous misunderstanding of what the debate is about.
I find it difficult to believe it's a misunderstanding or, potentially, without it being a misunderstanding so egregious as to be insulting to the reader.
Standard issue mad.casual "twist": Reason is found liable of publishing an article self-authored by Mulvaney... in Reason's print magazine... on feminine hygiene that causes several women to develop toxic/septic shock... even though none of the deaths were subscribers. Section 230's protection of 'Good Samaritan' protection of mangling and mutilation of children's offensive material FTW!
In cases where fundamental rights are not at stake, I forgo using government power to force you to live the way I want and, in exchange, you forgo using government power to force me to live the way you want. That's the liberal settlement—and if either of us breaches it, liberal institutions will be there to hold us accountable.
Maybe the right not to be mutilated as a child is in fact a fundamental right. Maybe the right to make life long decisions at 14 is NOT a fundamental right.
But you want the state to force children to go through puberty against their will, surely a lifelong effect.
No, we merely want the state to add certain medical procedures and drugs to the list of those that already can’t be performed.
WTF? Going through puberty is natural. How can you "force children to go through puberty against their will"?
I can imagine having the following dialogue with the author:
me: Wasn't the 1964 Civil Rights Act "use of government power to force [some people] to live the way [other people] wanted"?
Stephanie: Ah, but you see, Blacks' fundamental rights were at stake.
me: And what of the fundamental rights of the subjects of the "fairness-achieving" federal law ("some people" in the above formulation)?
(I imagine Stephanie running away at this point.)
Well, right-wingers are too stupid to understand that not being able to use the government to force other people to live a certain way isn't actually an infringement upon them. Forcing others to live a certain way is their raison d'etre. It's the purpose of religion, and if grown-ass adults are going to embarrass themselves by maintaining a belief in Cosmic Santa, they sure as hell aren't going to do it without the power that comes with it.
It's painful that true libertarians cannot stop assuming that conservatives are closer to them on individual liberty issues. All they have to do is stop elevating Charles Koch's income tax rate as the overshadowing eclipse of all other liberties.
But I wonder where all the true libertarians are gone in this wasteland of authoritarian scavengers, perhaps still claiming the title as zombies cling to clothing, hunting mindlessly for ways they can force the state on other people's genitals.
I don’t know of any right winger who wants to force you to live a certain way; that’s the exclusive realm of left wingers.
Right wingers just want to add certain specific medical procedures and drugs to the list of already prohibited ones.
all people deserving equal treatment under the law. (That value, thankfully, continues to be widely shared in our society.)
Does it? Then why is there so much resistance to the idea, especially in academia, that there is a Supreme Court case about it today?
Uh, we are talking about children here I think. However this dishonest article forgot to mention that. There is real harm being done to children.
The article links to a youtube page where you can watch the interview. As of now it has 57k views and a ratio of 98 to 1.3k against.
Furthermore, during the interview, only about 580 people showed up to watch it. It never broke 600 views of the live interview...
More people have watched ItsAGundam blast the interview than watched the interview...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoyjQsACB9c
Biden is irrelevant.
Well, that’s a relief.
TS Saint Etienne is web place with fine ladies ready for casual contacts with you