Should Libertarians Root for the Abolition of Police and Prisons?
Libertarians have some common ground with the abolitionists—but if they insist on anti-capitalism as a litmus test, abolitionists will find themselves isolated and marginalized.

Carceral Con: The Deceptive Terrain of Criminal Justice Reform, by Kay Whitlock and Nancy A. Heitzeg, University of California Press, 280 pages, $22.95
We Do This 'Til We Free Us: Abolitionist Organizing and Transforming Justice, by Mariame Kaba, Haymarket Books, 240 pages, $16.95
Becoming Abolitionists: Police, Protests, and the Pursuit of Freedom, by Derecka Purnell, Astra House, 288 pages, $28
In Carceral Con, Kay Whitlock and Nancy A. Heitzeg reject "the popular but erroneous notion that the massive harms and injustices of the criminal legal system can be reformed as a standalone project."
Whitlock, an activist, and Heitzeg, a sociologist, are pushing back from the left against the "bipartisan consensus" on criminal justice reform: the general agreement among many moderate liberals and conservatives that the government should reduce sentences for nonviolent offenders and improve reentry services for people leaving prisons. Whitlock and Heitzeg contend that a network of well-funded nonprofit foundations and advocacy groups manufactured this consensus and that its proposed reforms will only further entrench the current system's injustices.
Carceral Con is the latest of several recent books advocating abolition of police and prisons. Abolitionist Mariame Kaba published a collection of essays, We Do This 'Til We Free Us, and Black Lives Matter activist Derecka Purnell released Becoming Abolitionists, a half-memoir, half-polemic about defunding the police. Although rising crime rates have taken the sheen off "defund the police" rhetoric since George Floyd's murder, it's worth examining these arguments free from the heat of recent political debates.
Part of Whitlock and Heitzeg's argument is uncontroversially true. During the last decade, foundations and advocacy groups have indeed pumped hundreds of millions of dollars into criminal justice platforms that were palatable enough to build bipartisan coalitions in Congress and statehouses. For liberals, there were talking points about the drug war's injustices; for conservatives, there were promises of cost savings from closing prisons and reducing sentences. It all stops well short of abolition.
Even radical libertarian thought traditionally has not had much to say about eliminating prisons. The anarcho-capitalist Murray Rothbard, in a 1973 essay arguing for abolishing courts' subpoena powers and compulsory jury service, still found prison an ideologically acceptable institution. "The libertarian believes that a criminal loses his rights to the extent that he has aggressed upon the rights of another, and therefore that it is permissible to incarcerate the convicted criminal and subject him to involuntary servitude to that degree," he wrote. In 1972, by contrast, Robert LeFevre rejected the entire concept of "retroactive justice" in the pages of Reason. "I do not think we need a government to do the one thing government has always taken as its exclusive domain—retaliation," LeFevre wrote. "It is, in fact, the urge for retaliation, the thirst for vengeance, that ties us to the state."
Libertarians have some common ground with the abolitionists. Abolitionists recognize, at least in their better moments, that every law is ultimately enforced at the end of a gun barrel. "Simply put, policing is violence, deployed by the state," Whitlock and Heitzeg write. But libertarianism and leftist abolitionism have never commingled much, because the leftist abolition movement is steeped in socialism and identity politics.
For Whitlock and Heitzeg, the historical strands of policing and incarceration in the U.S. all flow from what they call "racial capitalism." The general thrust of their argument will be familiar to anyone who followed the debate over The New York Times' contentious 1619 Project: Modern U.S. policing is an outgrowth of slave patrols and urban initiatives created to protect the accumulation of capital and to reinforce racial and economic hierarchies.
The criminal justice reform movement's "strange bedfellows" arrangement, which includes conservative organizations, evangelical groups, and business interests, is therefore unacceptable to Whitlock and Heitzeg. They see the bipartisan bonhomie as a smokescreen that obscures true abolition efforts and protects the carceral system. "The Right's preferred remedies for corporate/white-collar overcriminalization," they write, "are deregulation, evisceration of occupational licensing qualifications and safety standards, and getting rid of corporate and institutional criminal liability for even massive harms to individuals, communities, and entire geographies."
It is unclear how criminalizing interior designers and hair braiders for not being part of a professional cartel reduces state violence.
Since the specter of capital haunts all abolitionist analysis, true abolition requires nothing less than the complete dismantling of the current social order (minus occupational licensing, I suppose). "The occurrence of crime is inevitable in a society in which wealth is unequally distributed," the prominent black radical Angela Davis wrote in 1971.
Abolitionism, then, is only part of a radical transformation. "Our vision insists on the abolition of the prison-industrial complex as a critical pillar of the creation of a new society," Kaba writes. This program seems to have many pillars. For Purnell, abolitionism is "committed to decolonization, disability justice, Earth justice, and socialism." One's receptiveness to abolitionist rhetoric depends largely on one's acceptance of these leftist priors and the revolutionary endgame.
Setting aside the flawed core of leftist abolitionism—the claim that crime will be negligible in a society that eliminates material inequality—its advocates do offer some real insights. Whitlock, Heitzeg, and their fellow travelers are not wrong when they note that police and prison systems have been largely impervious to reform efforts. The history of American prisons is a cycle of reform and stagnation, starting with the first penitentiary in Pennsylvania and extending to the present day. Every 50 years or so, blue-ribbon committees and esteemed experts identify the same problems as their predecessors: overcrowding, filth, idleness, and brutality. "Reforms only make polite managers of inequality," Purnell writes.
Meanwhile, the rise of cellphones and body cameras has brought more visibility to policing, but it has not significantly changed officers' behavior. Derek Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd for nine and a half minutes despite being filmed from multiple angles.
It's also true that many of the reforms pushed by technocratic foundations and advocacy groups—such as specialty drug courts, mandatory "treatment," home confinement, and monitoring—do little to reduce the size of the carceral state, merely offering less sadistic methods of surveillance and control. And while red states like Texas, Georgia, and Mississippi liked to crow that they downsized their prison systems before the blue states did, the actual impact of those reforms is debatable. The bipartisan reforms that Mississippi passed in 2014 were projected to save the state hundreds of millions of dollars in prison spending. Spending did go down, as did the inmate population, but in 2019 the number of prisoners began to rise again. In the last two years, Mississippi's prison system has devolved into a full-blown crisis of inhumane conditions and horrific violence.
Abolitionists also are right to remind us that prisons were not always a fact of life. Imprisonment has existed since antiquity, of course. Ancient Thebes had the hnrt wr ("great prison"), while Athens had the desmoterion ("place of chains"). The Bible says Paul and Silas sang and prayed in shackles. Boethius wrote The Consolation of Philosophy in a cell. But until the development of the modern penitentiary in the late 18th century, such cells were mostly used to house debtors, heretics, and political malcontents. Criminals were typically banished, publicly tortured, or executed rather than incarcerated.
The abolitionist critique of reform is easier to accept on paper than in practice, however. I covered criminal justice reform efforts on Capitol Hill for years, and I found that many of the advocates who stalk the House and Senate office buildings and stand in sweltering midsummer rallies are themselves formerly incarcerated. I also interviewed people who were freed from life sentences because of the compromised, milquetoast reforms those activists pushed for more than a decade. While the newly liberated uniformly grieve for the friends they left behind in prison, there is little doubt for them—or for, say, the roughly 3,000 federal crack cocaine offenders released early because of the First Step Act—about whether small-ball reforms are worth pursuing.
Abolitionists are on firmer ground when they focus on developing alternatives to the criminal justice system, venturing beyond the narrow possibilities of state-approved reality. Purnell discusses violence disruptors and other interesting experiments in de-policing. Last year, Denver started sending mental health teams instead of police for certain calls. For years a similar program in Eugene, Oregon, called CAHOOTS, has responded to mental health emergencies. These small-scale experiments should be encouraged, studied, and improved. There is no reason, other than habit and entrenched political power, for police and prisons to hold a monopoly on how communities respond to crime, homelessness, drug addiction, and mental health crises.
Competition, as libertarians like to say, gives consumers better products. But if abolitionists insist on anti-capitalism as a litmus test, they will find themselves, as they were prior to Floyd's death and are yet again, isolated and marginalized in America's debates over policing and incarceration.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "Who Controls Criminal Justice Reform?."
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How about, no.
C.J. Carmelo needs to watch this:
Richard Prior on Prison (As well as some great prescience on Identity Politics and Islam)https://youtu.be/Txp8B4ek_kk
By the bye, folks, don’t give the hairy eyeball to me when discussing problems with prisons:
In 2022, Atheists make up only 0.09% of the federal prison population Atheists and Humanists are all-but-absent in federal prison, according to new data obtained exclusively by OnlySky by Hemant Mehta
https://onlysky.media/hemant-mehta/in-2022-atheists-make-up-only-0-09-of-the-federal-prison-population/
Only if you want libertarianism to be less relevant.
Making up government…what’s less than “a snowball’s chance in hell”?
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It probably has something to do with exterminating the Jews, but the Holocaust never really happened.
Better solutions? Banishment to Greenland? The Aleutians? Monthly dropoff of food and supplies from the air. They could all be very libertarian there. It would give the military something to do- Air drops and no fly/float zone.
I've proposed something simular to this on another thread:
If some people can only live by predating upon others, then the best punishment that also keeps the rest of us safe is to remove predators from their prey: via a modern, high-tech form of Exile.
Build man-made islands for one out of genetically-modified coral, complete with mini-ecosystems. Patrol their periphery with satellites, drones, and gun-ships. Have monthly visits from legal counsel with an online archive and law library in case the Exilee wants to try and get exonorated. Otherwise, no human contact and "Root, Hog, or Die" against the forces of Nature.
No death penalty, no torture, no prison gangs, no blanket parties, no Maytagging, no soap-retrieval, just leave the condemned to their own devices.
Sounds economically feasible.
So....... Australia?
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But much smaller and for one person only.
Natch, this means no indigenous people to mistreat and no immigrants to offer labor or ideas to make life easier.
The Exilee is all alone and has to forage, fish, trap, hunt, grow, domesticate, and otherwise make everything needed to survive. "Root, Hog, Or Die!"
Without many cruelties of prisons, yet subject to merciless Mother Nature and the punishment is par with the deprivation, isolation, and shame criminals inflict on their victims.
One island per person?
Or just construct the Phantom Zone.
But then Greenland might turn out like Australia.
Except without shrimp on the barbi.
"every law is ultimately enforced at the end of a gun barrel."
This is true, but removing state power won't eliminate gun barrels. We'll just have vigilantes.
"Criminals were typically banished, publicly tortured, or executed rather than incarcerated."
So abolitionists want to return to public torture and execution? Sounds like we're headed for The Purge (which also had anti-capitalism overtones).
So abolitionists want to return to public torture and execution? Sounds like we’re headed for The Purge (which also had anti-capitalism overtones).
That's the inevitable result, but the abolitionists are marxists, and therefore utopian idiots.
Like, prison's horrible - I don't think lynching is a better alternative though.
Too long to read this am, but there are a lot of other pro-liberty changes to our society that would need to happen first, and would probably take at least a generation for the changes to take effect.
The welfare state, the federalization of education, the war on drugs and unconstitutional gun laws have created an underclass of people completely dependent on government that would be fodder for criminals.
A community like mine could probably transition to a society without government police pretty easily, because most people own their homes, most own guns, and there is very little crime.
Something like what the prison abolitionists want only works in small-scale, high-trust, culturally and ethnically homogenous communities. It will never work in large-scale, diverse urban areas, and anyone arguing otherwise is delusional or lying. People like that are actually dangerous to social stability because they'd let criminals go unpunished in the name of "equity," which would erode that stability even further.
What is all this with "high-trust" vs. "low-trust"?
Doesn't "high-trust" equal "sucker" in common parlance?
And weren't The Founding Fathers very "low-trust" when it came to power and who held power?
And what does ethnic homogeneity have to do with any of this? Ever hear of the saying "The Devil you know"?
Maybe try reading books that aren't about the adventures of teenage wizards, and you might understand it. It might also help you avoid that desperate rhetorical handwaving.
Who besides you says I read just teen wizard books?
And if you read my posts, you'd see I'm against Prison Abolition and Police Abolition, whether the community is "high-trust," "low-trust," "looks like me," "looks like America," or "looks like the World."
Some people are just "Too Mean For The Peoples" and as long as humans have Volition, that will always be the case, even in some people's precious Benedictine Hobbit-Holes or Wet-Dream EthnoStates.
Learn the difference between society and government.
I know government is a part of society, so whatever is said about trust within a society applies to government.
Doubling down on the handwaving doesn't make your statements any more illuminating.
What if it needs handwaving? So far, this "High-Trust" vs. "Low-Trust" paradigm hasn't panned out as an accurate descriptor of societies, nor does it jibe with this strangely recurring theme of ethnic homogeneity.
“What is all this with “high-trust” vs. “low-trust”?”
I clearly described the difference in my post.
Here's what I've found about "High-Trust" vs. "Low-Trust" societies:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_societies
According to this, "Low-Trust" societies are the ones based on kinship and thus homogeneity and "High-Trust" societies don't require such homogeneity and would tend to be against homogeneity if cultures within it were open to studying or creating new ideas and practices.
Also, trust is not an all-or-nothing thing with either of the examples of societies you gave. The first society is "Low-Trust" of the Individual and "High-Trust" of Government and the second society is "High-Trust" of the Individual and "Low-Trust" of the Government.
And in fact, doesn't a society with home ownership, gun ownership, and low crime require a system of laws that uphold and enforce Individual Rights, as well as uphold the sanctity of written contracts to transfer homes and guns?
All of The Bill of Rights and The Reconstruction Amendments came about because at some point in our history, Government violated Individual Rights or neglected to uphold them and the Amendment proponents and authors didn't trust Government anymore with such power. Again, the Founders and the Anti-Slavery Abolitionists/Reconstructionists had "Low-Trust" in Government but "High-Trust" in newly freed people.
Trust is undeniably part of having a society, but to have a free society, it's just like Ronnie said: "Trust, But Verify! Whoa! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!". 😉
Another, one of the author's cited in the Wiki article is Francis Fukuyama, whose book The End of History and The Last Man isn't even good enough to prop up a wobbly table leg in the cut-out book section of the Dollar Store. He has a lot of 'splaining to do about actual modern society and history before he can abstract out to "High-Trust" vs. "Low-Trust."
'Since the specter of capital haunts all abolitionist analysis, true abolition requires nothing less than the complete dismantling of the current social order (minus occupational licensing, I suppose). "The occurrence of crime is inevitable in a society in which wealth is unequally distributed," the prominent black radical Angela Davis wrote in 1971.'
But a totality of state control is required for equal distribution of wealth. Choose wisely.
Angela Davis supported a lot of “redistributing” all right, namely redistributing lives from above-ground to below ground:
Angela Davis–Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis
Oh, and addendum: Fuck that Commie bitch!
She should have been executed 50 years ago.
As if criminals wouldn't commit crime just because everyone was equal. Some people would still want to get ahead.
It's not just that. Even if you abolished ownership, so theft would be nothing, you'd still have hotheads. Most crime isn't stealing, it's against the person.
If you abolish ownership, that includes ownership of the most fundamental property: your mind and body, from the labors of which comes all other forms of property.
Socialism in all it's forms is the Living Death of Slavery pushed to it's most logical conclusion!
No, no totality of state control is required for equal distribution of wealth. You just have to abolish ownership.
But if you abolish ownership, whoever can leverage enough machinery and weaponry to confiscate the most from others would become the new State power. This is why the State "withering away" could never happen under Marxism or indeed any other flavor of Socialism.
The New York Times' contentious 1619 Project: Modern U.S. policing is an outgrowth of slave patrols and urban initiatives created to protect the accumulation of capital and to reinforce racial and economic hierarchies.
That WAS the historical origin of policing. To assert that that is or is not 'modern policing' should simply be a matter of going through the changes to policing over time and not merely generic changes to anything over time (eg slavery was abolished but not as an outgrowth of police reform).
For very different reasons, neither the left nor the right really even want to look at either history accurately nor the present day accurately nor the changes that got us where we are now.
"That WAS the historical origin of policing."
Proofs?
about 90 proof
That WAS the historical origin of policing. To assert that that is or is not ‘modern policing’ should simply be a matter of going through the changes to policing over time and not merely generic changes to anything over time (eg slavery was abolished but not as an outgrowth of police reform).
No it wasn’t. Policing itself goes back centuries beyond that, and emerged in the US as part of night watch patrols in the Puritan colonies. That the same concept was applied to enforcing slavery practices was incidental, not the origin.
Weren't city guards in bustling markets a thing in ancient cities? Police are a non military incarnation of that idea.
Yeah, like I said, the concept goes back centuries. Even in the US, cities were using constables to maintain order as early as the mid-1600s.
The assertion that modern policing is rooted in slave patrols is, to be blunt, revisionist nonsense proffered by neo-marxists that in no way resembles the actual history of the practice, especially in America.
Even the American Bar Association desperately tries to assert this: "Though history books may say otherwise, policing in the United States has its roots in the slave patrols in the South."--while admitting that the practice predates American slavery by centuries.
Anyone claiming that modern policing is rooted in slave patrols is either being disingenuous, is specifically ignorant, or is lazy and can't do basic research beyond a two-page Google search.
My impression was not that law enforcement began in slave patrols. Rather that what we think of today as policing, as in gangs of kidnappers roaming around looking for victims, originated with slave patrols.
If it's arguing that it began with slave patrols, it's wrong.
Rather that what we think of today as policing, as in gangs of kidnappers roaming around looking for victims, originated with slave patrols.
No society in history had any regular or semi-regular groups of gendarmes who patrolled towns or villages looking for malcontents, thieves and footpads until slavery came to the US?
There was no law enforcement until slavery, apparently.
Nope.
Policing in the US comea from the UK and Robert Peele.
Uhm, heard of Robert Peele?
That WAS the historical origin of policing.
No it wasn't.
Beyond ignorant to the point of inciting ignorance possibly leading to inciting violence for reasons others have stated. Also, '.....we can note that Augustus Caesar, born in 27 B.C., created the cohortes urbanae near the end of his reign, to police Ancient Rome. Policing in England takes rudimentary form with Henry II’s proclamation of the Assize of Arms of 1181. In the 1600s England established constables and justices of the peace to oversee them. The Metropolitan Police Act created the first recognizable police force in the U.K. in 1829....'
"Setting aside the flawed core of leftist abolitionism—the claim that crime will be negligible in a society that eliminates material inequality."
It's flawed both that crime would be negligible and that eliminating material inequality is possible. Both are facets of human nature. It doesn't matter if the farmer or the pigs are running the farm, there is always an elite and inequality.
''Only old Benjamin professed to remember every detail of his long life and to know that things never had been, nor ever could be much better or much worse - hunger, hardship, and disappointment being, so he said, the unalterable law of life. ''
Material equity would just mean criminals will take stuff from other people in order to have more than them.
Doubly so on an equal society where all are equally starving to death.
No. Don't criminalize victimless actions but lock up people who commit violent acts, destruction, fraud, etc. Maintain the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Amendments.
This isn't a black-and-white choice between "no law enforcement whatsoever" and "totalitarian police state." Stop acting like retards.
Exactly! Mend it, don't end it!
Judging from this article, C.J. Carmelo doesn't get out at all!
Caramello that is. As in "Stretch It Out, Caramello" which is what the street denizens would do to C.J. if they had their way:
Caramello Commercial Ad 1989
https://youtu.be/M2U9dqwlPxs
Not black and white? Racist
If Libertarians go this path they will become more irrelevant in national politics than they are now. This idiotic theoretical purity is the death of real impact.
How about defending the bill of rights, rampant spying by government, attacks on free speech by government, illegal search and seizure by government. Core issues that can actually attract support for a more Libertarian society. The purity test ensures nothing will move in the Libertarian direction.
This is why the Mises Causus was able to seize power within the national LP - these people and their social utopianism.
I think there is a place for the pure theoretical type of libertarian. But you are right that if you want to do politics, you need to try to do things that are somewhat practical. That said, the Mises Caucus dominated LP isn't likely to go any further than whatever it was before.
I think there is a place for the pure theoretical type of libertarian.
Yes, their grandmother's basement.
That is exactly what I was thinking. Just like the Marxists. Their place in our society holding furtive meetings in basements, printing pamphlets, and perhaps making absurd arguments on speaker's corners.
As soon as they find themselves in actual positions of power, able to try to implement their utopian ideas, everyone's standard of living tanks.
And the comic store.
Nope all the major publishers pushed out the libritarians, along with anybody not in the cult of woke
Yes. This is why Superman has a teenage bisexual son now. Because comic books are about being a platform for the writer ‘s personal virtue signaling agenda.
ciaramella belongs in prison for this horrible article.
Don't make laws that aren't worth killing people over.
That would solve most of the police and prison problems.
A fair standard, IMO. Because any crime, no matter how minor, if done repeatedly, will eventually lead to it.
Not so much that as the act of enforcement requires kidnapping people and ultimately killing them if they put up too much of a fight.
You’re seeing the results of that thinking in many large democrat thinking where people can shoplift and commit vandalism at will.
Think harder.
We should always be ready to consider alternatives - the current system has a lot of problems - including just straight abolishment.
But, what is the alternative on offer? Because I've already considered straight abolishment.
And rejected it as an option.
It's utopian at its core. And I don't need to do 12 paragraphs on why utopian philosophies always fail, and usually with a lot of bodies in their wake.
Is the NAP a utopian philosophy that would fail?
NAP is an entirely personal philosophy. You can pursue it at your leisure, to whatever degree you see fit. How you deal with people in the community that reject the NAP is where things get sticky.
No.
NAP is not pacifism. It's don't start shit. Nothing prevents you from finishing shit other's start.
This. Self defense is not aggression.
I'm a firm believer in self offence
Is that anything like *Ahem!* self-abuse? 🙂
I know that adherants to the NAP/NIFF Principle would have sympathy with the victims of initiated force and fraud, something you do not have with Holocaust victims enslaved and forced to do labor for the Nazi war machine.
Before you can say the NAP/NIFF is Utopian, you might want to actually want to try it first.
>>palatable enough to build bipartisan coalitions in Congress and statehouses
if bipartisan, then built to maintain status quo.
That moment when the left-libertarian realizes the people with the firing-squad list is talking about them.
Setting aside the flawed core of leftist abolitionism
Just a note here, when you "set aside the flawed core" of an ideology, that usually means you're setting it aside.
Not if SF and NY are any indication. The revolving door system for dangerous criminals seems to be the main reason for spiking crime rates the past 3 years.
In a libertarian justice system, all trials would be civil cases, with victims (or their surviving families) suing to collect damages from perpetrators. Those unable to pay could be subject to a court order for forced labor with some percentage going to the victims. In rare cases a judge could issue a confinement order for people who pose an ongoing danger, and remand those individuals to competing private prisons/rehab centers/mental health clinics/mining colonies. And it would be much easier to dismiss cases involving self defense.
What damages do you collect when your 6 year old daughter has been raped and murdered?
More importantly, what damages does your daughter collect?
Look to what societies did before our incarceral state existed.
Here’s a hint: I don’t bring a civil case.
Bring a pelican case... Filled with cement
Was she the daughter of a slave? A churl? Or a thane? This will determine her man price to be paid to the family. Or if you have more big harry tough guys in your clan or family, then you can blood feud. And piss off to Greenland if it doesn’t go your way.
Enough to make it lucrative to keep having children to get killed. Ka-ching!
Abolitionists are on firmer ground when they focus on developing alternatives to the criminal justice system, venturing beyond the narrow possibilities of state-approved reality. Purnell discusses violence disruptors and other interesting experiments in de-policing. Last year, Denver started sending mental health teams instead of police for certain calls.
So did Seattle.
This, too, is a utopian ideal. "don't send police, send a social worker" has not resulted in any real results, except a bunch of raped and a few murdered social workers.
Whenever you come up with what... um, seems like "a good idea on paper" (The abolitionist critique of reform is easier to accept on paper than in practice,) think long and hard about how that will play out in reality, when the rubber meets the road, if you will.
It's certainly easy to note that there's a troubled man, screaming on the street corner. You don't know if he's screaming at passers-by because he's on meth, mentally ill or both. It's understandable that one might want to reduce the possibility that this troubled person could get killed if an officer responds and the subject attacks or lunges. It's understandable to want to reduce the possibility of that. The problem with the far-left 'reformers' is they believe that once we eliminate the structural issues plaguing our society, everyone will behave within a narrow set of predictable parameters. See my comment about utopianism above.
Even the social worker or shrink would need men with guns to back them up if the crazy street person got violent.
Start again, Utopians.
“don’t send police, send a social worker” has not resulted in any real results, except a bunch of raped and a few murdered social workers.
So you're saying it hasn't been all bad?
FYI, here's noted conservative, Peter Hitchens discussing his proposal for massive police reforms that, in a saner world should excite libertarians (and Libertarians). What Hitchens proposes is EXTREMELY libertarian. And no, it's not a 'get tough on crime' approach that most conservatives are accused of (and rightly so most of the time).
He proposes a complete scrapping and rebuilding of the way we police the streets and to the uninitiated, comes off as very liberal.
(4 minute video)
If Peter Hitchens is going to get all faint-y over the mere sight of a Heckler & Koch, I don't know if anything he proposes would be any good.
His late brother, Christopher "The Hitch" Hitchens would pull no punches:
Ol' Hitch would say:. "Criminals need to be given enemas and buried in matchboxes, right next to Rev. Jerry Falwell!"
🙂
Hitchslap 13: hannity is a cock smith
https://youtu.be/kSZZ4tAg5Bk
Oh, and hat tip to Agammamon, Hitchens mentions Robert Peele
For those who find this brief clip intriguing, here's the full 52 minute talk. This is the kind of person and ideas that Nick Gillespie should be discussing and interviewing.
The summary here is, this is an unapologetic conservative (British) providing a very intellectual and evidence based critique of the militarization of police, and how it has become a reaction force, not a prevention force.
But then that would take time away from Washington post writers telling libritarians what they should think
He proposes a complete scrapping and rebuilding of the way we police the streets
Gee, sounds utopian and not very realistic. Perhaps his ideas belong in his grandmother's basement instead.
By utopian, he submits scrapping and rebuild it in its original form, before the 1960s. He's not suggesting eliminating the police along with global capitalism.
Perhaps you should get out of your mother's basement.
Really touched a nerve with Fat Jeffy on that one.
Govern his padding, this is not easily done.
He can’t. He no longer fits through the door, and even modern egress base,ent windows weren’t specced with his…. dimensions….. in mind. I suspect his grandparents just arrange for delivery of industrial sized barrels of ‘Ben and Jerry’s’. Then roll the barrels down the stairs to him.
Um, yeah, prisons weren't always a part of human life because in large numbers of societies, any serious crime was a capital offense. Why waste money taking care of somebody for the rest of their life when you could just execute them?
Put simply: small-l libertarians believe in the rule of law, anarchists do not.
Without police and without government, it is impossible to have rule of law, thus abolition of the police (with or without government, but gov't can't do much without lethal enforcers) is essentially a transition to anarchy (I am not using the word 'anarchy' in the typical alarmist or derogatory sense that statists use).
Small-l libertarians have quite a lot of overlap with anarchists, but they cannot remain small-l libertarian if they abolish the police.
Again, I am not being derogatory towards anarchists, just pointing out one of the few stark contrasts between the two political philosophies.
No idea what the big-L Libertarians believe about cops nowadays, nor do I care.
in a society that eliminated material inequality
I thought the millions of dead bodies would've dispelled the myth that this was possible or desirable, but I guess the "libertarian" disagrees.
TReason.com will print any BS story to keep from talking about Biden's cognitive decline, his failures, and his corruption. This story pretty much proves that.