Counting Neurons and the Moral Standing of People vs. Animals
Total human neurons outweigh all farmed animals by a factor of 30–1.

Does comparing the total number of human neurons vs. the total number of neurons among all domesticated animals affect the moral balance between animals and people? Oxford philosopher and Effective Altruism co-founder William MacAskill engages in such neuron counting as he grapples with the issue of the moral standing of animals compared to people in his new book What We Owe The Future. I was unable to include an investigation into his ruminations on this topic in my forthcoming review of his book in Reason's December 2022 issue, so let's take a look here.
First, just how many animals are we talking about? According to MacAskill's count, people slaughter and eat 79 billion vertebrate land animals annually. The amount of biomass in land-based farm animals is 70 percent greater than that amassed in all humans. And domesticated food animals outnumber us substantially. At any one time, some 25 billion chickens, 1.5 billion cows, 1 billion sheep, and 1 billion pigs are alive. And there are 100 billion farmed fish as well. Given the rate at which these animals are bred and raised for slaughter, humans annually eat about 69 billion chickens, 300 million cows, 600 million sheep, and 1.5 billion pigs. MacAskill notes the poor factory-farming conditions under which many of these food animals are raised, resulting in, he argues, a "society-wide production of a monstrous volume of suffering." (He does not count cats and dogs, 600 million and 700 million respectively. Possibly because the lives of Fluffy and Fido are pretty plush compared to those of food animals.)
MacAskill observes that "the question of what weight to give human interests and to nonhuman animal interests is difficult." With respect to these moral difficulties, he points to analyses done at Rethink Priorities by fellow effective altruist philosopher Jason Schukraft. Among other considerations for assigning degrees of moral status to creatures, Schukraft says, is their capacity for welfare, or how good or bad an individual's life can go.
In a rough attempt to "capture the importance of differences in capacity for wellbeing," MacAskill suggests that we weigh "animals' interests by the number of neurons they have." Beetles, with just 50,000 neurons, have little capacity for well-being, whereas chickens, with 200 million neurons, have a considerably greater capacity for welfare. By comparison, humans have 80 billion neurons. When comparing total numbers of neurons, MacAskill calculates that "humans outweigh all farmed animals (including farmed fish) by a factor of thirty to one."
"If we allow neuron count as a rough proxy," observes MacAskill, "we get the conclusion that the total weighted interests of farm land animals are fairly small compared to humans, though their wellbeing is decisively negative." However, the number of neurons in wild fish outweighs that of humans by a factor of 17. On the other hand, MacAskill suggests that it's hard to tell if most wild fish, especially prey fish, experience anything like positive well-being. Ultimately, MacAskill recognizes that nature's "circle of life" is, indeed, "red in tooth and claw," so that it is not at all clear "whether wild animals have positive wellbeing or not."
Counting neurons aside, it is the distinctive agglomeration of human neurons that, as far as we know, makes moral reflection of this sort possible.
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How absurd.
Animals eat other animals. The end.
"Sacred" fartilized human-DNA egg smells have ZERO neurons. The end.
Plants eat animals. THIS is the way that God-Nature-Gaia meant things to work, dammit! https://kristinmoonscience.com/carnivorous-plants/ Bring ON the "Little Shop of Horrors"!!!!
I suppose this is more interesting than arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but it's about as useful.
The relevant moral calculus doesn't show up in the article until the very end. Are these animals better off with humans in the world than without? The life of a farm animal may not be as plush as that of a housepet but it's substantially better than "red in tooth and claw" that is the fate of all wild animals.
And that's before considering that if humans didn't have a use for them, the vast majority of those farm animals wouldn't exist at all. If all humans suddenly decided to go vegan, those 25 billion chickens wouldn't be set free to graze an idyllic landscape. They'd be put down as invasive species destroying the local ecosystem.
"They’d be put down as invasive species destroying the local ecosystem."
Assuming that humans destroying the ecosystem aren't put down first.
"And that’s before considering that if humans didn’t have a use for them, the vast majority of those farm animals wouldn’t exist at all."
Which is why, when I speak to (some) vegans and/or the more whacko animal-rights folks (some who rail against killing domesticated animals for food), I tell them something like: yes, domesticated animals seldom live out their potential life-spans. On the other hand, they did actually have the chance to be alive. (As an aside, I do keep vegan, but I don't have any problems at all with folks that don't.)
>The life of a farm animal may not be as plush as that of a housepet but it’s substantially better than “red in tooth and claw” that is the fate of all wild animals.
That's probably true for most farmed animals. However, there are a few farmed animals, especially chicken and pigs, that are often kept in extremely miserable conditions. Conditions so miserable that you can easily argue that it would be a mercy for them to "be put down as invasive species destroying the local ecosystem."
Release domesticated chickens into the wild and there'd be no point in putting them down. The survival instincts have been bred out of them. Coyotes, foxes, and hawks would be catching them without hardly trying, and getting fat.
Not that there wouldn't be ecological consequences. Coyotes, etc., would be raising large litters, with far more pups surviving to grow up. Next year, there'd be many more coyotes than usual chasing the few remaining chickens and dwindling numbers of their usual prey. The winter after that, many coyotes would starve to death. Next spring, there'd be a huge crop of weeds due to a lack of gophers, rabbits, and other small prey to eat them. But the prey population would come back fast with plentiful food and few predators, until they overpopulated and ate most of the plants, while the predator population shot up again. Populations would oscillate through several more cycles like this, and the chickens would be long gone before the disturbances settle down.
OTOH, such disturbances occur naturally, so the chicken release would only mimic natural events. E.g., bad weather stunts plant growth, starving the rabbits and rodents, which starves the predators and lets the weeds grow, so the prey population overshoots, etc. In a sufficiently complex ecosystem with many plant, predator, and prey species, the ecosystem oscillates a while but eventually stabilizes. There are natural ecosystems that contain too few species so oscillations continue forever, such as the snowshoe hares and canadian lynx in Canada's arctic regions.
but as a figure of speech, we say 'happy as a clam', suggesting a snug contentment such as we'll never experience, despite the low neuron tally.
Happy as a clam at high tide to be precise.
Amoeba are equipped with no neurons, and no brain, neither. Yet they have the capacity to gravitate toward things they like, and flee things they dislike. Neurons are nice things to have but it's only a small part of the whole megillah.
Wow, what a retarded way to
collect a pay checkweigh morality.How many neurons in a cricket?
How many neurons in a “Sacred” fartilized human-DNA egg smell?
"Animal rights" is an oxymoron. If animals have rights, is it criminal for predators to kill prey, to eat them alive? If crime is allowable between species but not within a species, that allows humans to have farm animals and pets; if not, then ants must be punished for enslaving aphids. Why does human involvement change things -- why is it more immoral for humans to kill animals or vice versa? Why is it permissible to raise ducks and geese for slaughter but not feed them all they eagerly eat beforehand for foie gras? Is it equally impermissible to feed cattle more than they would eat in the wild, or feed them what they would not eat in the wild, or not hire wolves to kill them? If children can have pet mice, are laboratories forbidden to experiment on other mice? Is it immoral for some people to eat the same species that others keep as pets?
Is it immoral for some people to unilaterally take over the properties of others (web sites, for example), because the takers-over-controllers know MUCH better about the (lack of) value of "property rights", compared to ALL of the rest of us? MIGHT MAKES RIGHT, right, right-wing wrong-nut?
So what is your view on laws against animal cruelty?
What are your views about victimizing
children?
No need to answer, we all know what you are.
I try not to cause suffering to any living thing. Animals or plants. Life is sacred.
I love these platitudes because they display just how narcissistic these ideologies really are.
The idea that mtrueman thinks life is "sacred" is nonsense on its face. If life were sacred, mtrueman would be obligated to not take it under any circumstance- even to eat. And mtrueman would be obligated to stop all suffering of life, whether he caused it or not.
Nature is full of suffering. Sometime watch how a komodo dragon attacks its prey- chewing venom and bacteria into the wound, before backing off, then trailing the animal for days as the infection successfully weakens it- inflicting more and more bites, until the animal lays down from exhaustion and sickness to be consumed- alive- by the dragon. Watch how orca, or cats "play" with their food, breaking their bones and rendering them incapacitated so that they can be safely consumed.
But that's the whole thing. Mtrueman has used the word "sacred" to describe nothing more than his projection of his own emotions on "life". There is nothing wrong, of course, with being emotionally attached to cats and celery. And there is nothing wrong with deciding you don't want your salad to "suffer". But to declare such emotional eccentricity an act of sacrament- protecting that which is sacred- is hilariously pompous.
"The idea that mtrueman thinks life is “sacred” is nonsense on its face. If life were sacred, mtrueman would be obligated to not take it under any circumstance- even to eat. And mtrueman would be obligated to stop all suffering of life, whether he caused it or not. "
You haven't thought this through. A host is sacred to a Catholic, yet he or she is encouraged to eat it. You can consume the sacred, you're not obliged to avoid it, it's done all the time all over the world.
"Nature is full of suffering. "
That's true, but I try to avoid inflicting suffering on others, whether animal or plant. Don't you? If you seek to inflict suffering on others simply to show how emotionless and uncompassionate you are, you should seek counseling.
"A host is sacred to a Catholic, yet he or she is encouraged to eat it. You can consume the sacred, you’re not obliged to avoid it, it’s done all the time all over the world."
This is a poor analogy. The point of the host is that it is a sacred food. The wheat or grapes used to make it were not sacred. It isn't even a thing to be respected until long after it is manufactured, shipped and purchased. At the point it is blessed, it is blessed as food.
But set that all aside- if you see that a rat is about to eat your "Sacred Host" you are obliged to prevent it. So again, you aren't treating life as sacred at all. Else you would be obliged to keep a wolf from eating an elk.
"That’s true, but I try to avoid inflicting suffering on others, whether animal or plant. Don’t you?"
I don't think you know what suffering is, other than the self-centered emotions you impute on other life forms.
" So again, you aren’t treating life as sacred at all."
Chasing away vermin and bothersome creatures isn't prohibited by those who see life as sacred. I've seen Buddhist monks using mosquito coils. They seal the room and burn the coils. Once the room is filled with the smoke, they open the door and let the smoke and mosquitoes escape. No harm, no foul, as the disappointed duck hunter said.
Notice that mtrueman has changed the subject. Now he is talking about buddists he has seen (surely like his girlfriend in Canada). But it was mtrueman who claimed to think life was sacred. Does HE use smoke to clear rooms of mosquitos? I doubt it. Does he oblige himself to keep wolves from eating elk? I'd like to see him try.
"Does HE use smoke to clear rooms of mosquitos? "
I have done so. Presently I live at a high altitude, over 2000 meters, so mosquitoes aren't much of a problem. Wasps, though...
> There is nothing wrong, of course, with being emotionally attached to cats and celery. And there is nothing wrong with deciding you don’t want your salad to “suffer”.
There is a pretty big difference between cats and celery. Cats actually do suffer, as far as we can tell. Celery doesn't have the neurons for it. So when someone thinks a cat is suffering, they are not projecting their emotions onto an entity which has none. It really is feeling pain. Taking the feelings of others into consideration is the literal opposite of narcissism.
There's nothing hypocritical or narcissistic about wanting to prevent the suffering of living things, as long as you recognize that you are also a living thing, so your needs and suffering matter too. Since human beings need to eat other living things to survive, they need not feel guilt for that. However, farming those living things in conditions where they suffer unduly is doing something wrong. That is the basis of the critique of factory farming in the main article. It isn't that they kill animals for meat, it's that they make the animals suffer horribly before they kill them.
This is a diversion. Mtrueman is the one who insisted it is a virtue to prevent the suffering of plants.
And once again, I note the self-centered arrogance of yet another person who thinks that OBVIOUSLY the capacity for suffering depends on wholly human characteristics (like neurons). We don't know what suffering is. Does a tree with a spike through its trunk suffer, as it struggles to stay alive?
"We don’t know what suffering is."
You are lucky not to know suffering. Life is a struggle for most living beings, and suffering is inevitable.
First, all rights are fictional - it's just that it's convenient to pretend as though some rights exist "out there", endowed by God, the FSM, Cthulhu or whomever.
Second, accepting the fiction, there's no reason to suppose that all animals should have equal rights nor as a consequence humans have equal responsibilities. Most of us are not Jains. I would regard it as morally justified to kill someone in the act of killing a bonobo, but not someone killing a chicken. But as animals are not generally aware of rights - the nearest, AFAIK, is that some non-human mammals have a sense of fairness - we can't expect animals to assert those rights.
"First, all rights are fictional – it’s just that it’s convenient to pretend as though some rights exist “out there”, endowed by God, the FSM, Cthulhu or whomever."
Just because something is an idea or intangible doesn't make it "Fiction", or a thing that doesn't exist. Rights obviously exist- we have entire branches of government, religions, and books of laws defining and clarifying them. This isn't fiction where we know the smiling cheshire cat never actually talked to a spelunking blond with a rabbit fetish.
Rights, like language, geometry, and economics are non-fiction.
You seem to be arguing that rights are subjectively defined. And that since they are subjectively defined, your arbitrary and illogical application of right to life to a bonobo is as good as someone who logically determines that bonobos have no rights. That is a problem with your ability to reason, not with rights in and of themselves.
To say that rights are a fiction doesn't mean that they don't exist. You're using an unnecessarily narrow definition of fiction - possibly unaware of the broader. Note that legal fictions, for example, decidedly do exist.
But of course rights are subjectively defined! It's just convenient to pretend that they are not, by resorting to ideas like "natural rights" or "God-given rights" as if those can be proven to be true.
The term "legal fiction" is also a reference to something that doesn't exist. The common example is "A reasonable man". It is a substitute fact, made up, so that the court doesn't have to deal with other actual laws or facts.
Rights are not legal fictions.
"But of course rights are subjectively defined! It’s just convenient to pretend that they are not, by resorting to ideas like “natural rights” or “God-given rights” as if those can be proven to be true."
They can be arrived at through logic or through emotion. Suggesting that emotionally ascertained rights are the same as those derived via logic fails on many ways.
The "reasonable man" exists as a concept to be used in law. Rights also exist as concepts - to be used in law, politics, etc.
Rights can indeed be derived by logic or emotion, but in the former case, you still have to rely on axioms from which to derive rights and those will be subjective.
As far as emotionally-ascertained rights are concerned, you're undoubtedly correct.
"is it criminal for predators to kill prey"
This was true in the middle ages when dogs were often tried in civil and ecclesiastical courts to decide their fate after killing a sheep or other livestock. Found guilty they would be hanged. An interesting case was that of the donkey charged and tried for bestiality, sex with a human. Character witnesses from the village testified to the donkey's sweet nature and she was found not guilty and spared. Her human 'friend' was found guilty and executed.
This is generally why sane people advocate for "animal welfare" rather than "animal rights."
Animals are too dumb to have rights. Rights come with responsibilities, and animals are not capable of living up to pretty much any of them. However, animals can be harmed, and it is reasonable to care about their welfare. This means that when thinking about animals, you should not focus on "rights" and instead focus on more basic, primal things, like pain and suffering.
What about vegans?
Vegans are morally superior to ALL of the rest of us!!!
All these food-law do-gooders will end up with PETA getting mandatory veganism passed some day.
I recall (but can not find right now) a “Ralph Waldo Emerson” quote, something along the lines of, “In matters of morality, government must follow, not lead”… I can’t find it… Anyone know what it is? The closest I could find is only vaguely related…
Another relevant Emerson quote:
“All men plume themselves on the improvement of society, and no man improves.”
So anyway, suppose that Government Almighty goes too far, and mandates no-meat diets, which many people disagree with, just like the War on Drugs today…
Then there will be underground, makeshift, amateurish animal-killing-and-butchering shops, where the animals will be treated far less humanely than they are today! (Thank You Do-Gooders!!!)
You will not be able to let your cat or dog wander through the bushes in your own back yard, for fear of meat-hungry lawbreaking pet-snatchers!
(But, Meat-Hungry Lawbreaking Pet-Snatchers would make an MOST EXCELLENT name for a garage band!)
OK, here are the closest matches I can find…
When government - in pursuit of good intentions - tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost come in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player. Milton Friedman
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/milton_friedman_851214?src=t_morality
That’s the closest match that I can find… Anyone else?
OK, I found it…
(Short version up top).
Ralph Waldo Emerson, who said, ‘The State must follow, and not lead, the character and progress of the citizen.’
Here is the full-blown quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson:
‘Republics abound in young civilians who believe that the laws make the city, that grave modifications of the policy and modes of living and employments of the population, that commerce, education and religion may be voted in or out; and that any measure, though it were absurd, may be imposed on a people if only you can get sufficient voices to make it a law. But the wise know that foolish legislation is a rope of sand which perishes in the twisting; that the State must follow and not lead the character and progress of the citizen; that the form of government which prevails is the expression of what cultivation exists in the population which permits it. The law is only a memorandum.’
Another relevant Emerson quote:
“All men plume themselves on the improvement of society, and no man improves.”
So anyway, suppose that Government Almighty goes too far, and mandates no-meat diets, which many people disagree with, just like the War on Drugs today…
Then there will be underground, makeshift, amateurish animal-killing-and-butchering shops, where the animals will be treated far less humanely than they are today! (Thank You Do-Gooders!!!)
You will not be able to let Fluffy or Fido wander through the bushes in your own back yard, for fear of meat-hungry lawbreaking pet-snatchers!
(But, Meat-Hungry Lawbreaking Pet-Snatchers would make a MOST EXCELLENT name for a garage band!)
In case anyone doesn’t understand what we are saying here… “We” being me & the Ralph Waldo Emerson in my pocket…
If I passed a law saying that one may no longer burn witches for killing our calves and babies, and making our crops fail, just because they are witches using witchcraft… People would laugh at me. We got over witch-burning a LONG time ago, so those laws aren’t needed any more!
We’ve gotten over totally overt anti-black-people bias, to the point where we might start ditching those laws as well. In their place, enforce “truth in advertising” laws… Do NOT put up a sign in your shop, saying “all races welcome here”, and then act to the contrary to your sign! For lack of a non-discrimination sign, and for bad behavior, MOST people today, would punish such a shop, enough! Boycotts work!
More tolerance for gays is newer than more tolerance for blacks. Give it time… In due time, cake-baking laws will be as un-needed as witch-protection laws are today! Ralph Waldo Emerson was right! Let the state follow the progress of the citizens, and not vice versa! Vice versa causes WAAAY too much fighting, and WAAAY too much stupid!
Vegans eat microscopic animals all the time.
I was more wondering if I could eat them. Due to the lack of neurons.
Drinkers of alcohol and eaters of yoghurt go one better. They consume the feces of these tiny creatures.
The total number of vegan nurons is even smaller than the total number of MEGA neurons.
Non human animals not being sapient are amoral.
Have you evidence that non-human animals are not sapient?
Low numbers of neurons.
That is true for most animals but not all.
Apes and some cetaceans have a comparable number of neurons with humans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons
Dumb.
Poor conditions in factory farms? Really, have you ever visited a pork farm? Climate controlled, cleaned daily, with automatic waterers that deliver clean water, no predators, access to medical care, copious amount of food, fresh bedding daily, etc. Or a poultry farm, which has all the same things as a pork farm. Or a modern dairy which has most of the same things. Or a feed lot for beef, sheep and goats, again very similar accomodations. Fuck for that matter, meat ruminants such as beef, sheep and goats, only spend a very short portion of their time in concentrated feeding operations and most of their life on range. Fuck, these urban writers who have never had cow shit on their boots need to stop writing about shit they know nothing about. Come spend a day on my ranch, and tell me how bad the conditions are for my livestock. I'll gladly put you to work.
"Poor conditions in factory farms?"
Sure. Animals are slaughtered as a matter of course. They are also kept in cages, separated from their young or even denied the opportunity to lead a full and natural life. Just imagine if the shoe were on the other hoof.
What, exactly, is a "full and natural life" for a cow? Or a chicken? Usually the full and natural life is short, difficult, and generally ends in a violent, bloody, and painful death.
Animal welfare people also don't realize, it's in the best interest of farmers to ensure their animals are cared for, because every loss is lost profit. Those animals are money.
"What, exactly, is a “full and natural life” for a cow? Or a chicken? Usually the full and natural life is short, difficult, and generally ends in a violent, bloody, and painful death."
Some people think Mother Nature is a Disney cartoon, when in reality, nature doesn't give a single fuck about anything.
Female in labor? Along comes a predator to tear the half-born from the womb. If the mother is lucky, she may escape, but more likely the rest of the pack will kill her as well. This repeats with almost every species on the planet. Every single living organism is potentially another organism's meal. Humans are not exempt.
"What, exactly, is a “full and natural life” for a cow?"
Walking around, eating grass, meeting a nice bull, raising young, eating more grass. It's not all that different from a human or any other life of a member of the animal kingdom.
They don't raise the young. They nurse them for less than a year and then literally kick them off and often run them off. I've seen it happen when ranchers wean too late. It's kind of violent in fact. Deer and elk do the same thing. It isn't like fucking Disney. Say you know nothing about nature without saying you know nothing about nature. Fuck you're a moron.
"They nurse them for less than a year and then literally kick them off and often run them off. "
Humans also tend to get snippy when it comes to weaning. In Korea mothers spread spicy chili paste (고추장) on their nipple to discourage the whining little brat. What's your point?
Do we actively harm or kill our offspring when we wean them like some in the animal kingdom do?
"Do we actively harm or kill our offspring when we wean them"
I'm sure it happens. More likely we abort offspring before they get sprung. I don't think animals go this far, but my point is that animals and humans share a lot more than some are comfortable acknowledging.
Oh and that bull, he may even kill the young if it's a male.
"he may even kill the young if it’s a male."
Among humans, women are far more likely to kill infants than men are. Again, what's your point?
My point is your idea of natural as happy isn't even close to it. You don't know what you're talking about and it's pretty obvious. I raise cattle. After about a year (I sell my calves later and used to retain heifers) the mother has almost no feelings for their calves. Bulls don't care until they become sexually mature then either they want to breed them or fight them.
"My point is your idea of natural as happy isn’t even close to it. "
I said full and natural life. Happy is your word.
What is a full life? Do cattle breed and raise young? Yes they do, the young are generally weaned around the same time they would be in nature. So what is unnatural about that? I'm weaning my calves in November. If they lived in nature their mothers would have forced weaned them now. My cattle spend all day on the range. Just like their wild relatives. What isn't natural about that. The majority of their offspring will be slaughtered for others to eat them? Just like in nature, among herbivores, even buffalo, the majority are killed and eaten by predators before their first year.
"What is a full life? "
The life that animals in the wild lead. The life that millions of years of adaption have led them to lead. Do you think a full life means confinement in a giant fish tank and being cared and pampered for? If so, make the argument.
That disneyfied view of nature is as disconnected from reality as, well, the rest of your comments. I don't know why we keep trying.
"Usually the full and natural life is short, difficult, and generally ends in a violent, bloody, and painful death."
Isn't that better than the life of a farm animal? How about a salmon? Aquaculture salmon or wild salmon, which would you rather eat?
How is that better than a farm animals life? Fuck, stressed animals don't produce, it's simple biology. They produce less eggs, milk, meat or whatever you want. If a farm animal is stressed it's not earning you money. To produce at the level we get them to produce at, they aren't fucking stressed. So in other words they're pretty fucking happy. When's the last time you had cow shit on your boots? Or taken an animal science or ag science class? Because so far you haven't posted anything approaching actual scientific facts. Dipshit.
You didn't answer the question. Do you think that aquaculture salmon is superior to wild salmon? Apparently you do. All that swimming and leaping about is terribly stressful and salmon can only be truly happy with the relaxed and pampered pace of life on a fish farm. Science tells us so.
I don't know about better, but definitely less impactful as most wild salmon are listed as threatened and without aquaculture providing fresh, nutritious salmon would be even more stressful on depleted wild stock.
"but definitely less impactful as most wild salmon are listed as threatened and without aquaculture providing fresh"
My idea is less impactful still. If you're concerned about depleting the stock, don't eat them. If you're concerned about frivolously inflicting pain and suffering on them, don't eat them.
So instead, kill off millions of animals to plant nutrient poor plants. What about their suffering? There is less suffering globally because we're omnivores than if we were intelligent herbivores (which evolutionary is extremely rare because the energy needed to support large brains is almost impossible to obtain via a plant based diet).
"So instead, kill off millions of animals to plant nutrient poor plants. What about their suffering?"
In this world, suffering is ubiquitous as you've made clear. I believe we should live our lives in such a way as to avoid and minimize it to the extent possible and practical.
As for pain and suffering, domestic livestock don't suffer as I explained above and modern slaughter methods are mostly painless, far less than what happens when a predator preys on them in nature. Look up the humane slaughter act of 1978. You can't use methods that cause pain to slaughter livestock in the US. Hell, even the lambs I slaughter for my own consumption receive a single .22 magnum round behind the ear, basically they are dead before they can feel anything. If they were killed in nature, a coyote or wolf kill is long and very painful.
If you cause an animal to suffer or feel pain it actually decreases the quality of meat. Modern slaughter methods are all about eliminating stress, suffering and pain as much as possible. Anyone who hunts will tell you the meat from an animal that is killed with a single shot is much better than meat from an animal that takes multiple shots and time to kill. When you're in pain you release hormones, that causes the meat to degrade (usually through the release of lactic acid. It's part of the fight or flight response. We go out of our way in animal agriculture to avoid this. Hell, even older traditions like halal and kosher actually are fairly painless (a quick cut with a sharp knife on a major vein or artery, and the animal succumbs quickly to blood loss). Much less pain and suffering than if killed by a wild predator.
You seem to believe that killing animals for food is desirable and necessary. I disagree, and there and many who eschew killing altogether.
Sure. Animals are slaughtered as a matter of course. They are also kept in cages, separated from their young or even denied the opportunity to lead a full and natural life. Just imagine if the shoe were on the other hoof.
The sad thing is that someone with first hand experience just told you what it's actually like and you STILL think you know better.
Farm animals are slaughtered as a matter of course. That's the whole point of a farm. I know that and you know that. You can't deny it.
The sad thing now is that you think that was an answer.
Is slaughter the point of a dairy farm?
An egg farm?
A wool farm?
How about a wheat farm?
There are many types of farm whose purpose is not slaughter.
"There are many types of farm whose purpose is not slaughter."
There are more than a few where it is. The article clearly states that some 79 billion animals are slaughtered each year.
Yes, about half of those are older animals that no longer produce the products we need and would die naturally soon anyhow, or in nature would be killed by predators. Look at the lifespan of domestic and wild cattle. The former is much longer. Hell that holds true for almost all domesticated animals and even non domesticated animals in captivity. Slaughtering an older animal means it doesn't go to waste and we don't have to dispose of the carcass, but utilize it instead. In the US over half of all cattle slaughtered are actually dairy cattle. You get a steak or a hamburger at most chain restaurants and there is a better than even chance your eating a dairy cow. They don't produce quality beef, but they do produce staple beef. The chicken in your chicken noodle soup you buy from Campbell's, likely it's a laying hen who can no longer lay. In nature she wouldn't live very long either. Humans are about the only animals that continue to care for people (especially women as they have a determinate period they can breed for, whereas males are considered indeterminate although age does impact fertility even in men) after they no longer can breed. In nature they are surplus and a drain on resources and nature tends to take them out of the equation very quickly.
"Yes, about half of those are older animals that no longer produce the products we need and would die naturally soon anyhow, or in nature would be killed by predators. Look at the lifespan of domestic and wild cattle. "
It's just more rationalization. Next time you murder someone try telling the judge the victim was old and would have died sooner anyway, or that if I didn't do the deed, someone else surely would have. See what the judge has to say.
The point is there is no compelling reason to kill animals and eat them. People are perfectly capable of living long and productive lives without this.
You don't have to slaughter a chicken to get eggs, nor slaughter a cow to get milk. So no the whole point of a farm isn't to slaughter an animal, that really depends on the what type of farm it is.
"You don’t have to slaughter a chicken to get eggs, nor slaughter a cow to get milk."
What's your point? The article tells us that billions are killed every year. Why not address the matter?
"that really depends on the what type of farm it is."
You mean that animals aren't slaughtered at Google's server farms? I agree, but again, what's your point?
Because billions more wild animals are killed every year to protect crops and to plant enough crops to make up for the loss of nutrients from animals would require almost complete elimination of thousands of wild animals. Meat is far more nutritionally dense (yes even vitamins and minerals) than plants, additionally vitamins and minerals from meat are more biologically compatible and absorbable than vitamins and minerals from plants. Look at a comparison of time spent on acquiring food between carnivores, omnivores and herbivore. Herbivores spend almost all of their time acquiring food, whereas the most carnivorous land animals spend about 20% of their time acquiring food and omnivores about 40%. The more you depend upon plants for survival the more energy you exert and more resources you exert, acquiring enough plant life to keep yourself alive. Yes, cows spend a lot of time laying around but they actually are still working to acquire nutrients when they lay around, as almost all the time they are laying around they are ruminating, i.e. coughing up their food, rechewing it and reswallowing it, rinse and repeat. Wild deer and elk and buffalo follow the same path. That's also why wild herbivores tend to have distinct breeding seasons, because the don't can't devote energy or time to year round breeding, and breeding season is dictated by the need to birth when resources are the most abundant and easily obtained. In the northern hemisphere, grasses are most abundant and nutritious in May and June, when do wild herbivores birth their young? May and June. When do most ranchers, especially in northern states, time their calving, April-June. Look at chick survival for birds that hatch in May vs July or August. We can breed domestic animals (like cattle) when we choose because we can provide the nutrients they need regardless of the season (most choose to breed so that nature provides the nutrients as this is cheaper in meat production). Many of our livestock developed from species that had distinct breeding cycles but we've breed that out of them, because we don't need it.
I understand the need to rationalize practices that are objectionable, such as the infliction of suffering on the animals we eat. It's not necessary though. There are many who live their lives in a conscious effort to avoid it. I also understand the need to dismiss these people as infantile Disney types, leftists and idiots. I don't think it adds up to a persuasive argument.
They're separated from their young after weaning, which is pretty much how it happens in nature too. Deer and elk both kick off (literally) their young after they are weaned. So does a lot of wildlife. Fuck it isn't like Disney dipshit.
"Just imagine if the shoe were on the other hoof."
As noted earlier, this is an example of mtrueman's narcissism. If we truly imagined the "shoe on the other hoof", we would need to imagine ourselves as a dumb cow, incapable of reason, communication or any higher order concept of suffering or morality. Truly, realistically imagined, we realize that if we were the cow, we'd have no awareness of what was going on, or whether it was acceptable that we tortured grass as we tore it from the ground and chewed it for hours on end. We domesticated, farmed humans would live life blissfully unaware of what is going on, until one day our Cow-with-the-food walked us into a room where we took a sledgehammer to the head.
That little flight of imagination did nothing to change my perspective on the plight of a cow.
And that is the problem. Mtrueman cannot ACTUALLY imagine what it is like to be a domesticated cow (or other animal). He can only imagine what it is like to be a rational, thinking human forced to live like a cow. Because he cannot get out of his own self-centered head.
"And that is the problem. "
What problem? Cattle and humans are both living creatures on the planet sharing a common ancestry and many many biological features. The similarities outweigh the differences. Put aside your emotional allegiance to human tribalism and embrace the science.
"Cattle and humans are both living creatures on the planet sharing a common ancestry and many many biological features."
And? That says nothing about what it is like to be a cow. You impute human motivations on a cow when you ask me to imagine what it is like to be a farmed cow. Because biological similarity has nothing to do with concepts like suffering.
"That says nothing about what it is like to be a cow."
I'm not convinced. Cows and humans breathe air to survive. Why is it so inconceivable that both experience breathing in a similar way? Why is it so inconceivable that both suffer in a similar way when deprived of breath? I'm not claiming that cattle are suffocated on farms in order to be eaten, just that we're not as different as you seem to think, and breathing is about as fundamental a similarity as you can get.
Your focus on biological similarity is incoherent. On the one hand, you believe that human morals apply to our entire ecosystem, but on the other, you ignore the fact that all those animals regularly break exactly those moral constraints. If a komodo dragon can inflict suffering upon its prey because it is pragmatically efficient for the komodo dragon, why is it immoral for me to inflict suffering on a cow because it is pragmatically efficient for me?
"On the one hand, you believe that human morals apply to our entire ecosystem"
Read what I write rather than what you would have me write.
"you ignore the fact that all those animals regularly break exactly those moral constraints."
I haven't ignored it. See above.
"why is it immoral for me to inflict suffering on a cow because it is pragmatically efficient for me?"
Because you have no compelling reason to do so. A taste for hamburger isn't enough.
It's only humane if you lock your animals heads in cages and have flies eat them alive
I used to live downwind from an egg farm. Took a year and a half to sell my house. Air was so bad.
And? What's your point? Animals shit, and then we clean the shit out of their housing, it's gotta go someplace. Fuck that's a pretty stupid and pointless story.
You know who else used questionable “scientific” premises to impose moral judgments on humanity?
Rob "The Miserable" Misek?
Fauci?
The Eden gardener?
Woodrow Wilson?
Hugh Hefner?
The claim that there is "a monstrous volume of suffering" involved in farming animals depends on the article of faith that animals have enough consciousness to experience suffering.
I think there's been enough comparative anatomical studies done between the nervous systems of animals and humans that it is more than an "article of faith." There are probably some animals that do not experience suffering, like insects. But pigs, cows, and chickens are likely similar enough to humans that they can experience some amount of suffering.
He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. Immanuel Kant
The question is not, "Can they reason?" nor, "Can they talk?" but "Can they suffer? Jeremy Bentham
A human body in no way resembles those that were born for ravenousness; it hath no hawk’s bill, no sharp talon, no roughness of teeth, no such strength of stomach or heat of digestion, as can be sufficient to convert or alter such heavy and fleshy fare. But if you will contend that you were born to an inclination to such food as you have now a mind to eat, do you then yourself kill what you would eat. But do it yourself, without the help of a chopping-knife, mallet or axe, as wolves, bears, and lions do, who kill and eat at once. Rend an ox with thy teeth, worry a hog with thy mouth, tear a lamb or a hare in pieces, and fall on and eat it alive as they do. But if thou had rather stay until what thou eat is to become dead, and if thou art loath to force a soul out of its body, why then dost thou against nature eat an animate thing? There is nobody that is willing to eat even a lifeless and a dead thing even as it is; so they boil it, and roast it, and alter it by fire and medicines, as it were, changing and quenching the slaughtered gore with thousands of sweet sauces, that the palate being thereby deceived may admit of such uncouth fare. Plutarch
Humanity's true moral test, its fundamental test…consists of its attitude towards those who are at its mercy: animals. Milan Kundera
If we cut up beasts simply because they cannot prevent us and because we are backing our own side in the struggle for existence, it is only logical to cut up imbeciles, criminals, enemies, or capitalists for the same reasons. C.S. Lewis
Human beings are a part of the animal kingdom, not apart from it. The separation of "us" and "them" creates a false picture and is responsible for much suffering. It is part of the in-group/out-group mentality that leads to human oppression of the weak by the strong as in ethic, religious, political, and social conflicts. Marc Bekoff
the idea that we can rid ourselves of animal illusion is the greatest illusion of all. Meditation may give us a fresher view of things, but it cannot uncover them as they are in themselves. The lesson of evolutionary psychology and cognitive science is that we are descendants of a long lineage, only a fraction of which is human. We are far more than the traces that other humans have left in us. Our brains and spinal cords are encrypted with traces of far older worlds. John Gray
More science denying. We developed as omnivores, not herbivores.
"Total human neurons outweigh all farmed animals by a factor of 30–1.
So if I'm reading this correctly, after I eat ~30 farm raised animals, I can morally eat a person?
As with other attempts to shoehorn rights into animal-human relationships this article is full of the problems that occur when you confuse emotional bleating with logic.
1) It is imprecise: The article assumes that the metric for moral status is "capacity for welfare". This is immeasurable and subjective in the first place. What is welfare, if not its own bag of moral assumptions about what is good or bad for an entity? But even worse, rather than admit that capacity for welfare is un-measurable, they steal a base and insert a proxy measurement- number of neurons.
2) The proxy metric (neurons) is arbitrary: No work is done to actually prove that neuron-count is sufficiently relevant to "capacity for welfare". And the world is full of contradicting examples- Pandas have far more neurons than a cockroach, and yet the latter are far more capable of positively effecting their welfare. Outside of a very small region, Pandas die without humans to supply them with very specific food and environments to procreate, while cockroaches thrive despite our best efforts.
3) The proposed metric cannot be deduced from first principles. By that, I mean moral status is assigned based on the research of scientists, not logical deduction. And that research is extremely imprecise. A cockroach's neural count is not some known quantity. Go look on the web and you find numbers anywhere between 100,000 and 1 million. So I cannot look at an animal and say- "This dog has higher moral status than this cat", unless 1) I crack open their heads (how moral!) and start counting, or I believe the commandments of some PHD.
4) The framework leads to conclusions that make zero sense in reality: Speaking of dogs and cats, cats have half the neurons of Dogs. And depending on the science you choose, Raccoons have more neurons than both. This framework would have us giving higher moral status to Raccoons than dogs, and more to dogs than cats.
5) The framework isn't actually a framework at all: Even if we accept that "moral status" is pinned to neural count, that doesn't tell us what to do. Can we still keep dogs as pets? Cats? Can I be more cruel to cats since they have half the neurons? Can I trap raccoons to get them off my property, or must I feed and care for them like a pet?
This moral framework is unworkable, because it is attempting to put quantifiable measures on an emotional projection. People have developed emotional attachment to certain animals, and so they are trying to coerce others into sharing the same emotional attachment and they are dressing it up in a veneer of quantities.
But this entire framework is extremely controversial, because it suggests that our moral rights are scientifically quantifiable. "Thou shalt not murder, unless I am smarter than you (according to this authority), in which case I can murder you under condition A but not B" is bizarre. And, by the way, they never prove why this is so. They never say why we should erode moral rights by reclassifying them in tiers.
As a result, you have what you generally get from a lot of leftists and socialists- an attempt to recast their completely arbitrary emoting as some sort of intellectual rigor, likely just to feel better about their moral confusion.
"This moral framework is unworkable,"
Do you have a moral framework that is workable? One that is not emotional and held by right wingers and reactionaries? I assume you find the ill treatment of humans worse than that of animals. On what grounds?
"I assume you find the ill treatment of humans worse than that of animals."
It depends. If a mountain lion takes your head off while you mountain bike, there is no moral weight to that, any more than if it takes the head of a deer. I don't find the mountain lion evil or good. But if *you* aggress against a human, that is morally wrong.
"On what grounds?"
The moral code is a construction of humans. You could insist it is divinely revealed or some other superstition, but this is not required. It is self evident that our morality is internalized and practiced by humans.
The fact that we are sitting here discussing this is prima facie evidence that you and I have conceded the possibility that we can agree on a common moral code. This is not emotional, it is self evident. The seed of our moral code is that you and I can sit here and work it out between us.
And this gives us the moral foundation from which the rest of our moral framework can be built. If we act consistent with that foundational seed, our framework is consistent. If we act inconsistent with that foundational seed, our moral framework itself becomes incoherent.
Logically speaking, that means the greatest moral outcome is one where we follow this foundation to its fullest extent: a system of mutual consent. From this foundation flows all other moral outcomes, including property rights, freedom of speech, association, etc.
So we have a system of morals built without appeal to emotion our authority. The question remains what to do with an entity who doesn't follow the moral framework. By our actions, we have conceded that our moral foundation is based on mutual consent. Therefore if another party declines to join us in conversation, they are prima facie AMORAL. That means we are not obligated to apply our morals to them.
If some sapient animal COULD sit across from us and enter into a compact of mutual consent, then that animal would equally be contradictory if it tried to apply force, and we would be contradictory if we did the same. But no animal (to our knowledge) can do this. They are outside our moral framework, because they lack the ability to join it. This also squares quite well with reality outside the cloistered ivory towers of intellectuals. It explains why we can view the predation of animals upon one another without worry of the moral implications: those animals are part of nature, an amoral environment.
Note none of this required any emotion. It is just looking at the basic evidence around us.
"The moral code is a construction of humans. "
The moral code as constructed by Jains (a group of vegetarians in India) states that it's wrong to inflict suffering on animals or even eat them. Are they just emotional stupid communists on that account?
"They are outside our moral framework, because they lack the ability to join it."
You must be of Christian heritage, a religion conspicuous for its turning a blind eye to animals and their suffering. Religions of the far east are pretty explicit in their codes for treatment of animals, and Muslims and Jews have strict laws governing the dispatching of livestock. Native American religions give animals a place of pride in their system of clanship... The notion that we are free to inflict suffering on animals because they've failed to enter into some kind of compact with humans is bizarre, and I doubt you'll find many who agree with you.
Mtrueman: "Do you have a moral framework that is workable? One that is not emotional and held by right wingers and reactionaries?"
Overt: "Why yes, here is a logically deduced moral framework that is not based on emotion and held by right wingers and reactionaries."
Mtrueman: "Oh yeah? Well these superstitious fundies in India have a different moral code"
What exactly is your point?
"You must be of Christian heritage, a religion conspicuous for its turning a blind eye to animals and their suffering. "
Holy crap what a bunch of simplistic nonsense. Nothing in that paragraph is accurate to any level of precision. It is so full of inaccurate assertions passed off as uncontroversial fact that one wonders how you don't just die of embarrassment right now.
One of the most basic christian parables is relationship between a shepherd and his flock- and it specifically guides the shepherd AGAINST cruelty to its flock. And let us note that the initial Jewish texts specifically state that animals were created for man. Halal and Kosher strictures are not about suffering of animals, but about practical measures of killing and preparing animals cleanly. And let us not mention the whole fact that the Muslims specifically considers "Dog" an insult, because dogs are freely mistreated and beaten.
And don't get me started on Eastern cultures. News flash for you, mtrueman: When a Rhino steps on a spike trap and bleeds to death suffering, while a poacher cuts his horn off and leaves the rest to bloat in the Serengeti, that powdered horn isn't being shipped to some fucking Christian. It is being consumed by some user of Traditional Eastern Medicine, which is heavily entangled with their religious and moral system.
Likewise, it is hilarious to see you lump all native american cultures into one sentence. How did the Aztecs view the mass slaughter and consumption of strong animals like Jaguars (and also humans)? Is that no different than the Plains Indians who routinely burned forests (and the animals and plants within them) to create more habitat for the buffalo they hunted?
"I doubt you’ll find many who agree with you."
I doubt you find many who agree with your terrible characterizations of their religions, but so what?
Are you changing your metric for a workable moral code to a publicity contest? If so, then how can you possibly bemoan the moral system of Christians, the largest religion in the world?
It is self evident that our morality is internalized and practiced by humans.
Morality, yes, but moral codes are not all the same.
And do you know for sure that no other animals have moral codes?
One does not need to know whether animals have moral codes. If they do and they do not communicate it with you, then there is nothing to discuss. I think it is laudable and correct to consider that other species could be capable of such thinking. But if you cannot collaborate to agree upon a moral code, it doesn't matter.
"Mtrueman: “Oh yeah? Well these superstitious fundies in India have a different moral code”
What exactly is your point?"
Glad you asked. Moral codes are human constructions, as you pointed out. The Jains of India have one that prohibits cruel treatment and eating animals. Why is that superstitious? What makes the Jains superstitious while the Aztecs, who revel in cruelty, are spared the label? It seems you go to great lengths to justify ill treatment of animals, and dismiss those who oppose it as superstitious, leftist idiots. Is there anything beyond an emotional reaction behind your stance?
"Why is that superstitious?"
Because it is a moral code based on the supposed revelatory teachings of higher powers. That's pretty much superstition.
"What makes the Jains superstitious while the Aztecs, who revel in cruelty, are spared the label?"
I didn't spare them any label. The Aztecs were obviously superstitious.
"It seems you go to great lengths to justify ill treatment of animals, and dismiss those who oppose it as superstitious, leftist idiots."
I justify nothing. I merely point out that nature, and reality, is pragmatic and cruel. The orca crushes the bones of its prey to protect themselves from injury when they go to consume their prey. The komodo dragon inflicts unbelievably agonizing torture upon its prey in order to save energy in its hunt. This isn't justifying anything. It is merely acknowledging a fact of life.
For the record, I don't justify needless harming of life. I am merely honest about what is, and is not, needless. The difference between you and me is that I am honest. You will take a life and mouth platitudes about "preventing suffering" as if it is some great virtue that you snuff a life that you want to consume in some manner that you have determined to be the appropriate amount of murderous. I recognize that reality is about tradeoffs- amoral tradeoffs.
"dismiss those who oppose it as superstitious, leftist idiots. Is there anything beyond an emotional reaction behind your stance?"
This is ridiculous. You asked me to provide a moral framework that isn't based on emotion. I did. Then you stomped your feet and called me emotional. The emotional one is you, cappy.
"Because it is a moral code based on the supposed revelatory teachings of higher powers."
No, it's based on the avoidance of inflicting suffering on others. How is that superstitious?
"You asked me to provide a moral framework that isn’t based on emotion. I did. "
It's a silly moral framework you provided. Justifying ill treatment of animals for their failure to enter into a contract with us? Are you serious?
TL;DR: You have misunderstood this paper. It is not making a moral argument that neuron count is a source of moral value. It is making the factual claim that larger or smaller neuron counts show animals have a greater or lesser capacity for happiness and suffering. Then it is combining that with the common-sense moral view most people have that suffering is bad and happiness is good. It then concludes that animals with lots of neurons are of most moral concern, because they likely have the most capacity to suffer and be happy.
Longer version:
I'm going to go over a few issues with your points:
1. I think the fact that it was imprecise is addressed. The point of counting neurons isn't that it leads to a precise and reliable guide to moral worth. It's just a rough estimate that is better than nothing.
2. You are confused as to what "capacity for welfare" means. It doesn't mean ability to survive or find food or something like that. It means the mental capacities to experience pain, pleasure, emotion, and so on. A panda has much more capacity for welfare than a cockroach because it has enough neurons to feel pain and pleasure, while cockroaches likely do not. Pandas also seem able to experience crude forms of the higher forms of welfare, like forming emotional bonds with their children.
3. I think what is deduced from first principles is something along the lines of "suffering is bad, happiness is good." Neuron counting is a crude measure to figure out how much suffering and happiness different creatures experience.
4. It might, if the results hold up, assign higher moral worth to the conscious experiences of raccoons than dogs and cats. But conscious experience isn't the only source of moral worth, just an important one. In the case of dogs and cats, they have significantly friendlier temperament and more positive relationships with humans.
5. Again, it isn't that number of neurons is directly linked to moral status. It's that the capacity to suffer and be happy are things most people agree are morally valuable, even if they are not the only moral value. And neuron count might crudely approximate *how much* and organism suffers and is happy.
>People have developed emotional attachment to certain animals, and so they are trying to coerce others into sharing the same emotional attachment and they are dressing it up in a veneer of quantities.
More accurately, pretty much all people have developed a strong moral conviction that suffering is bad and happiness is good. The purpose of these numbers is to convince people that animals can suffer and feel happy, even if they cannot do so as intensely or intricately as humans.
Life eats life.
If this bothers you, get out of the way. Life is ALWAYS hungry.
Wow. A science article that is also a philosophy article?
Stick to bad takes on politics. Being wrong isn't something you want to branch out on.
I was waiting for someone to make this case.
Killing one whitetail deer (for example) is the same as killing one insect. Only one life lost. If your diet was only bugs, you'd have to end 10's of thousands of lives, compared to only one large vertebrate.
Not of you calculate the total number of all cockroach neurons like the article did. If you do than cockroaches have more moral standing than humans or some such bullshit.
" If you do than cockroaches have more moral standing than humans or some such bullshit."
I doubt it. There are some 20 quadrillion ants on the planet, each sporting about a quarter million neurons. Do the math. It's 'then,' by the way. After doing the math, try doing the English.