Both Left and Right Are Converging on Authoritarianism
The problem with American politics isn't polarization—it's rising illiberalism.

Something is broken in our politics. Just about everyone knows it, but it can be hard to put your finger on what it is.
As the media attempt to grapple with this felt reality, they reach over and over for the same word: polarization. That, we're told, is the shorthand for what has gone wrong. Where once the country had its share of conservative Democrats, liberal Republicans, and mushy moderates, today the two parties are more internally consolidated—and further apart from each other—than ever.
But what if that explanation is missing something? What if there's a sense in which left and right are actually converging, and the nature of that convergence is the real source of the perception that something isn't right?
In 2014, Pew Research Center released a report on the crisis of polarization. "The overall share of Americans who express consistently conservative or consistently liberal opinions has doubled over the past two decades," it explained. "Today, 92% of Republicans are to the right of the median Democrat, and 94% of Democrats are to the left of the median Republican."
According to the report, as the center of gravity within each party shifted out toward the extremes (ideological polarization), dislike and distrust of those on the other side of the aisle increased as well (affective polarization). We disagree on more than ever and like each other less than ever. There you have it: the recipe for toxic politics.
Yet by 2021, Pew had settled on a different framework for understanding the American political landscape. In a major report released last fall, the think tank introduced a political typology that focuses attention on the divisions within the left and right.
Neither of those camps is a monolith, Pew notes. In fact, nine distinct subgroups are observable across the spectrum. You have your business-friendly Republicans and your cultural conservatives, your blue-collar Democrats and your progressive activists. Instead of a mushy middle, there are the "stressed sideliners," less politically engaged than the other groups and, when they do show up, willing to pull the lever for either party.
According to American National Election Studies data, the share of Americans who self-identify as moderates or say they don't know what they are has fallen from 55 percent in 1972 to 39 percent in 2020. In that sense, people really have been moving toward the poles. But if partisan consolidation is the story of the last few decades, the story of the last few years is one of fracturing. More people are calling themselves conservatives, for example, but their preferences and priorities are not necessarily shared.
The future of the parties is now a matter of live debate. But in both cases, the elements that seem to have the most energy behind them have something important in common: a desire to move their side, and the country as a whole, in an illiberal direction.
On the left, a new crop of socialists hope to overthrow the liberal economic order, while the rise of intersectional identity politics has supplanted longstanding commitments to civil liberties. On the right, support for free markets and free trade are more and more often derided as relics of a bygone century, while quasi-theocratic ideas are gathering support.
What has not changed—what may even be getting worse—is the problem of affective polarization. Various studies have found that Americans today have significantly more negative feelings toward members of the other party than they did in decades past.
But partisan animosity suits the authoritarian elements on the left and right just fine. Their goal is power, and they have little patience for procedural niceties that interfere with its exercise. As history teaches, a base whipped up into fear and fury is ready to accept almost anything to ensure its own survival. Perhaps even the destruction of the institutions and ideals that make America distinctively itself.
Free Markets Under the Gun
You've likely seen some version of the statistic: Before Bernie Sanders' surprisingly strong showing in the 2016 Democratic presidential primaries, the average age of a member of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) was in the late 60s. Within a couple of years, it was early 30s and falling fast.
Magazines were soon running articles on figures like 23-year-old Melissa Naschek, an Ivy Leaguer studying neuroscience who, after a few months of attending DSA meetings, had "denounced liberalism and begun identifying as a socialist." Membership rocketed from around 6,000 to nearly 100,000, and the group now boasts four sitting members of the U.S. House of Representatives. The DSA itself has become more extreme as well.
In the last half-decade, this newly energized activist class has been working to push the Democratic Party hard in a leftward direction—and demands such as student loan forgiveness, Medicare for All, and rent control are just the start. "Nationalize All the Oil Companies" reads a recent headline at the socialist magazine Jacobin. "Why not nationalize Amazon?" asked a host of the cult-popular Chapo Trap House podcast in 2017. The same episode declared the need to "decommodify" all "necessary goods," where decommodification means making something free and provided by the government, and where necessary goods—according to the podcast's hosts—include housing, education, health care, elder care, child care, transportation, and food.
Gearing up for his 2020 run, Sanders rolled out a plan that, beyond hiking corporate taxes, would order large companies to hand 45 percent of the seats on their boards and 20 percent of their stock to worker representatives. By using force to appropriate ownership and control of capital, this would be a genuine move toward the democratic socialist goal of abolishing the traditional employer–wage earner relationship and putting the country's productive resources under "democratic control."
Jacobin magazine founder Bhaskar Sunkara emphasized the radical nature of these efforts in The Socialist Manifesto (Verso Books): "Sanders' movement is about creating a 'political revolution' to get what is rightfully ours from 'millionaires and billionaires,'" he wrote. "His program leads to polarization along class lines; indeed, it calls for it."
No socialist himself, President Joe Biden still managed to delight the left wing of his party by unveiling a plan for $4 trillion in infrastructure spending, paid family leave, and various efforts to "secure environmental justice" upon assuming office in 2021. "It is absolutely a bold and transformative and progressive agenda," the chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus told The Washington Post that spring. Only a lack of cooperation from a couple of moderate Senate Democrats has prevented more of it from being enacted.
At a time of polarization, you might expect the right to react by doubling down on support for free markets and private property. Instead, concurrent with democratic socialism's ascendance, many prominent conservatives have taken a leftward turn of their own.
In June 2019, Tucker Carlson spent five full minutes during his prime-time Fox News show praising a plan from Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D–Mass.) to promote "economic patriotism." The proposal, which called for "aggressive" government action to bolster domestic manufacturing and keep American companies from creating jobs abroad, "sounds like Donald Trump at his best," Carlson enthused.
President Donald Trump exhibited a high degree of comfort wielding state power for mercantilist ends, from his imposition of tariffs to his use of subsidies and bailouts to support American companies facing competition. Now a rising cadre of nationalist conservatives (a.k.a. "natcons") are happy to provide the intellectual ammunition for this America First agenda.
In 2019, Republican policy wonk Oren Cass appeared at the inaugural National Conservatism Conference to argue for industrial policy—a robust program of federal interventions meant to resuscitate American manufacturing. He went on to found a think tank, American Compass, that promotes such familiar policies as making corporations give board seats to labor representatives.
In Washington, skirmishes between Republicans are increasingly likely to be over the terms by which the government should support families financially. When Sen. Mitt Romney (R–Utah) last year introduced a plan to provide up to $4,200 a year, in perpetuity, to every American child, Sens. Marco Rubio (R–Fla.) and Mike Lee (R–Utah) balked—but only because they preferred a plan to increase the size of the child tax credit to as much as $4,500 a year. Sen. Josh Hawley (R–Mo.) soon offered a hybrid option, complete with an additional bonus for married parents. So much for rolling back the bloated welfare state.
A bevy of new right-of-center publications paints globally integrated commerce as a threat. Among them are American Affairs (in which one author recently encouraged the U.S. to learn from China's efforts to "subsidi[ze] industry through equity investments") and The American Mind (sample headline: "Make America Autarkic Again"). The Catholic provocateur Sohrab Ahmari, who in March partnered with a Marxist to found yet another new publication, Compact, has for some time been a critic of "warmed-over Reaganism" and is now on the record supporting "a strong social-democratic state."
A common refrain among critics of free markets and global trade is that such institutions, because of their dynamism and reliance on worker mobility, are alienating: They stop people from putting down roots. As one representative malcontent put it, "Nothing highlights libertarianism's cold-blooded disconnection from any notion of human interaction or society better than their penchant for saying, 'We should just have people move around to the jobs,' and create these atomized pinball humans moving from shantytown to shantytown, looking for employment and just sundering all communal bonds along the way."
That sentiment, which might be endorsed by any number of natcons and religious conservatives, was actually voiced on a 2016 episode of Chapo Trap House.
Whether from the left or from the right, such critiques suffer from the same accounting flaw: They see only the upsides of their proposed interventions and only the downsides of the status quo. Missing from the calculus is a recognition that tariffs, by driving up prices, hurt both American consumers and domestic producers who rely on inputs from abroad; that federal "buy American" mandates mean our tax dollars don't go as far; that subsidies insulate incumbent players from competition and lock in old ways of doing things; that wealth expropriation is a death sentence for risk taking and innovation; that someone still needs to produce the goods and provide the services that have been "decommodified"; and that—as the labor market of the last year suggests—people become less willing to work the more they're told that government is responsible for meeting their material needs.
The bipartisan leftward lurch on economics is perhaps most visible in the rejection of any restraint in the response to COVID-19. In 2020, the Trump administration pushed through a $2.2 trillion pandemic bill that dwarfed the Barack Obama administration's historic 2009 stimulus package. It included $1,200 payments to millions of Americans and was followed by a second round of $600 checks that Trump proceeded to denounce as too small. The Biden administration, for its part, was happy to start 2021 with a third round of checks at $1,400 apiece, among other expenditures.
In all, Congress has authorized some $6 trillion in COVID-specific federal spending, more than three times as much as Washington's response over five years to the Great Recession, according to the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. Meanwhile, since early 2020, the Federal Reserve has injected a staggering $4 trillion into the economy, with nary a complaint from either party's leaders.
Economics is the arena in which the left-right convergence is most obviously apparent. But there are other places in which the two movements, though superficially worlds apart, are tracking in the same disturbing direction at a deeper level.
Two Sides Turn on the First Amendment
According to the old American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) mythos, one of the group's finest hours came in 1977 when it successfully defended the First Amendment right of neo-Nazis to demonstrate in Skokie, Illinois. Some 30,000 people reportedly canceled their ACLU memberships to protest the decision, but the group stood by it on the high grounds that speech protections, to mean anything, must extend even to the least popular in society.
That commitment carried the group all the way to Charlottesville, Virginia, four decades later. But in the aftermath of the infamous Unite the Right rally in 2017, ACLU leadership appeared to break. The following June, The Wall Street Journal published a leaked document that had been drafted to help state chapters decide which cases to take a pass on. While insisting the civil liberties organization would "continue our longstanding practice of representing" even repugnant speakers "in appropriate circumstances," the guidelines created an impression that circumstances were highly unlikely to be deemed appropriate when it came to the likes of white supremacists.
As former board member Wendy Kaminer explained in a commentary for the Journal, "The speech-case guidelines reflect a demotion of free speech in the ACLU's hierarchy of values." It's a demotion that is evident across the progressive movement, where "systemic equality," "racial justice," and other manifestations of identity politics that include an ever-more-militant LGBT agenda have sidelined practically all concern for the speech rights of those seen as on the wrong side politically.
"The quest to suppress objectionable reading material in America" was once mostly confined to the right, author Kat Rosenfield argued in a March essay. "But as progressives became increasingly focused on diversity, equity, and inclusion in the arts—and on the potential harm wrought by books that didn't do enough to champion the proper values—they started issuing challenges of their own. By 2020, the [American Library Association's] list included almost as many complaints about racist language, white savior narratives, or alleged sexual misconduct by an author as it did ones about bad language or LGBT themes."
Not that conservatives have abandoned censorship. Cry as they might when their own speech faces adverse consequences, they have few qualms about punishing expression that runs up against right-wing pieties.
J.D. Vance, the GOP nominee for U.S. Senate in Ohio, has called for punitive taxation to "seize the assets" of nonprofits that push a "woke" agenda and of companies like those that dared to oppose voting legislation in Georgia and other states last year. "Harvard University's $120 billion endowment is ammunition for our enemies," he said on one occasion, "and we can't let the enemy have that much ammunition or we're going to lose."
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, a front-runner for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination, has gone beyond lobbing threats. After Walt Disney Co. CEO Bob Chapek criticized a law regulating instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity in Florida public schools, DeSantis pushed through another law stripping Disney World of its self-governing jurisdiction. It was a clear and worrying example of government retaliation against a private actor for political speech displeasing to the party in power.
The law that sparked the brouhaha is one of dozens that seek to clamp down on what can be said in classrooms across the country. Introduced in a mad rush to scrub curricula of what conservatives call critical race theory and progressive sexual politics, these legislative efforts are often sloppily written and open to abuse. Nor do all of them stop with state-run K-12 education. Some claim to apply to private schools; others target higher ed. A different Florida law represents such an egregious violation of the rights of professors and college students to discuss controversial topics that the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression has asked administrators to consider refusing to comply.
These days, prominent voices on left and right alike stand against free speech "absolutism." Michael Knowles, a conservative writer with over 750,000 followers on Twitter and a podcast co-hosted with Sen. Ted Cruz (R–Texas), published a book last year in which he argued that speech in America is too free. Conservatives must "not only articulate a moral and political vision," he wrote, "but also suppress ideologies and organizations that would subvert that vision."
More recently, the Biden administration's erstwhile disinformation czar, Nina Jankowicz—perhaps under the influence of a ubiquitous progressive talking point that hateful words are actually violence—said she "shudder[ed]" to think about "free speech absolutists" running social media platforms such as Twitter. To stop online abuse, she said, "we need the platforms to do more, and we frankly need law enforcement and our legislatures to do more as well."
Note the attention on government action to shut down disfavored speech. Jankowicz's comments represent an emerging consensus among Democratic activists and politicians in favor of an approach more like the one being pursued in the European Union, which has moved to require social media companies to delete user-generated content deemed suspect by the state, from "hate speech" to supposed COVID misinformation. In June, Biden announced a new federal task force (composed of eight cabinet secretaries, among other officials) aimed at stopping "online harassment and abuse"—a category that almost certainly includes some forms of speech protected by law in this country.
Republicans, for their part, have taken up legislation to prohibit social media companies from viewpoint-based moderation of content. While the new Democratic paradigm runs afoul of the Constitution by ordering private companies to engage in censorship, the GOP would violate those same companies' right to control the material that appears on their platforms, forcing them to amplify speech with which they do not wish to be associated. Such laws have already passed in Texas and Florida, though both face preliminary injunctions.
Free expression is not the only First Amendment freedom that has lost its luster in recent years. Religious liberty is also under attack.
In 1993, Bill Clinton signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). The New York Times had editorialized in favor of the bill, and the ACLU had urged its passage. "What this law basically says is that the government should be held to a very high level of proof before it interferes with someone's free exercise of religion," Clinton said at the time. "This judgment is shared by the people of the United States as well as by the Congress. We believe strongly that we can never, we can never be too vigilant in this work."
Today, the idea that people should be protected from government actions that would impinge their religious beliefs is all but anathema on the left.
In 2015—a year after the Supreme Court found that family-owned businesses could not be forced to pay for employees' abortifacient drugs—the ACLU abruptly called on Congress "to amend the RFRA so that it cannot be used as a defense for discrimination." The group has taken numerous Catholic hospitals to court in an effort to make them perform abortions and gender transitions against their will. Christian small business owners have faced human rights investigations and fines for not wanting to be involved in same-sex weddings, and parochial schools have been targeted by the state for making hiring and firing decisions based on would-be employees' adherence to tenets of the faith.
But at least conservatives are solid on religious liberty, right? Alas, a new intolerance toward nonbelievers (or wrong believers) has crept in on the right, with a cohort of "post-liberal" intellectuals trying to build a case for less separation between church and state.
The most radical fringe within this group—people like the Harvard Law School professor Adrian Vermeule and the Cistercian monk Fr. Edmund Waldstein—are the so-called integralists, whose "political Catholicism" calls for a civil government that is subordinate to the Catholic Church and actively privileges the true faith (and its adherents) through the law. A robust understanding of religious liberty that ensures equal rights even for dissenters is a hindrance to the integralist project.
In contrast to social media regulations, these desires seem unlikely to enter public policy anytime soon. Even on the right, there is minimal appetite for enforcing the tenets of Christianity, let alone traditional Catholicism, on a secularizing society. The focus is instead on culturally conservative priorities, such as restricting trans athletes from competing in women's sports, that have little to do with religion per se.
Nonetheless, a number of increasingly influential writers and media personalities have gained a following with calls to reinstate Sabbath laws, ban blasphemy, return school- sponsored prayer to the classroom, and otherwise use the state to root America's "public life" in Christian teachings—all with little concern for whether such policies violate the spirit or letter of the Constitution.
The Rhetoric of Radicalization
In January, The Atlantic published a long article by an Irish writer who had lived through the ethno-nationalist conflict known as the "troubles." Describing a perception of civil war just around the corner, he writes: "Once that idea takes hold, it has a force of its own. The demagogues warn that the other side is mobilizing. They are coming for us. Not only do we have to defend ourselves, but we have to deny them the advantage of making the first move. The logic of the preemptive strike sets in: Do it to them before they do it to you. The other side, of course, is thinking the same thing."
An analogous logic is on display in America today. It is mostly rhetorical so far. But it is happening at both ends of the ideological spectrum.
The tropes come in escalating stages. One is that the other side is irredeemably evil and out to destroy all that is good. A second is that our side is weak and overly beholden to procedural niceties, whereas our opponents are shameless about breaking the rules in their pursuit of power. The third, following from the other two, is that whatever it takes to win is justified; any institution standing in the way can be demolished; and doing any less amounts to cowardice and surrender.
The left insists that conservatives are engaged in an "eliminationist" and "genocidal" struggle against marginalized communities such as trans people, women, and the working class. "Conservatives are animated by a vision of 1950s-style white Christian patriarchal dominance," a Georgetown visiting professor wrote in The Guardian recently. "It is the only order they will accept for America." The Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade is "the culmination of a decades-long conservative assault on the constitutional foundations of our modern civil rights regime," tweeted Slate legal reporter Mark Joseph Stern. It's not just that "abortion bans are class warfare" (per the DSA) but also that "austerity is violence" (per Chapo Trap House). The very idea of reducing government spending now has existential stakes.
The right has its own purveyors of dire warnings about what progressives are up to—which supposedly includes grooming children for sexual assault, using immigration to replace native-born Americans with a Democrat-voting electorate, and eradicating traditional Christian beliefs and practice from the public square. Nothing less than conservatives' survival is on the line, they say. In 2020, Vermeule tweeted that the attendees of an anti-Trump conference would not be spared the gulag when the extremist left takes over; four years earlier, an essay in the Claremont Review of Books implored readers to elect Trump with the memorable words, "2016 is the Flight 93 election: charge the cockpit or you die."
Observe the equal-opportunity demonization and the industrial-scale hyperbole about the threat posed by the other side (stage one). Likewise, left and right seem equally convinced that passive co-partisans are undermining the cause (stage two). "Tea and crumpets fussiness and chickenshit unwillingness to wield power is going to end democracy," tweeted the progressive journalist Ryan Cooper last year, in a pitch-perfect instance of the genre.
Finally, each side frequently declares that desperate measures are now required (stage three). And why wouldn't they be, if the other guys really are as bad as all that?
On the left, this most often takes the form of proposals to radically reform governing institutions seen as impediments to enacting policy. Since 2020, the progressive media have issued calls to pack the Supreme Court, strip states of control over elections, abolish the U.S. Senate (or at least the filibuster), eliminate the Electoral College, and generally engage in what one Jacobin article called "an extremely necessary assault on the undemocratic power of the judiciary." All told, such a program would dramatically weaken America's system of checks and balances, making it easier for a slim majority to impose its will on the rest of the country.
Short of restructuring the entire system, there's always executive action, such as Biden's efforts on behalf of the environmental lobby to hamstring energy producers. The administrative state can also be deputized to prosecute the culture war, as when the Justice Department decided last year to treat parents expressing concern at school board meetings as potential domestic terrorists, or when the Department of Education was tasked with ensuring K-12 schools give students access to locker rooms matching their gender identities. And if all else fails to make the left's policy preferences a reality, the implication goes, there's always violent uprising.
On the right, radical ideas are similarly in vogue. Vance's desire to punish left-wing corporations is just the beginning. Vermeule has promoted an alternative to "originalist" jurisprudence that would empower (presumably friendly) judges to read "substantive moral principles…into the majestic generalities and ambiguities of the written Constitution." Adherence to rule of law seems, at best, like an afterthought. "Among some of my circle," one right-wing podcaster told a Vanity Fair reporter last year, "the phrase 'extra-constitutional' has come up quite a bit." In March, Curtis Yarvin, a wildly popular blogger on the "neoreactionary" right, published a long essay arguing that the "only possible cure for 'wokeness' is a change in the structural form of government." His suggested replacement: dictatorship.
More concretely, the GOP has been working since 2020 to make state voting laws more restrictive and to elect or appoint Trump loyalists to key positions at the state and local levels. The goal, it appears, is to prevent a situation in 2024 like the one in which officials in places like Georgia and Arizona willingly certified a Republican loss that members of the party base consider dubious. It's no exaggeration to say that the expectation for a peaceful transition of power is in doubt in America today.
The point is not that either side is wholly unjustified in its motivating grievances. The left really has trained its guns on traditionalist Christians, for example, as the volley of ACLU lawsuits against religious hospitals makes clear. Social media platforms did, as if in lockstep, block a damning news story about Hunter Biden from being shared in 2020, thus choosing sides in the midst of a contested presidential race. And the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania did step in to unilaterally decree that absentee ballots arriving after Election Day should continue to be processed, piquing conservative suspicion about procedural irregularities surrounding the contest.
Meanwhile, the right really does seem woefully indifferent to, for instance, the lingering effects on black communities of three centuries of legally sanctioned oppression. Trump did begin priming his base to reject the outcome of the last election months before votes were even cast, to say nothing of his encouragement of the January 6 riot. And Senate Republicans did pivot shamelessly from refusing to hold confirmation hearings for Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland to rushing through approval of Amy Coney Barrett, leading many progressives to wonder why they should feel constrained by the norms of congressional process where their opponents manifestly are not.
But each side is using some legitimate complaints to build a permission structure for seizing power by any means necessary and raining down destruction on its foes. One result is a sort of bipartisan apocalypticism: A recent Yahoo News poll found that more than half of each major party believes it's likely that America will "cease to be a democracy in the future." Under these circumstances, extreme medicine can start to seem like the only logical response.
The other side is mobilizing. They're coming for us. Do it to them before they do it to you.
Against Total War
This is what feels most broken in our politics. It's not the ways left and right are further apart than ever; it's the ways they're closer together, with powerful elements on each side having jettisoned the longstanding liberal ideal of respecting the rights of even those with whom you strongly disagree.
The two camps, of course, have different substantive moral visions for the society they wish to construct. But each views a broad conception of individual liberty as a barrier to achieving that vision.
Economic liberty, including international trade and private property rights, stands in the way of progressives' desire for an egalitarian and democratic order in which no one is ever again expected to work for someone else—and in the way of natcons' desire for a revivified American manufacturing sector in which male breadwinners can support a large family on a single income. Speech protections prevent both sides from controlling the conversation as they wish. Religious freedom is seen as either a cover for rank bigotry or a rationalization for excluding God from the public square. And liberal toleration, with its norms of fair play and civility, is at odds with the reigning conception of politics as total war.
As the journalist Sam Adler-Bell (who covers trends on the new right from a perch on the far left) put it in a 2019 essay, both sides "agree that liberal proceduralism, its pretension of neutrality, tends to enervate and disenchant the practice of politics. Both left and right radicals desire—at least affectively—a hot-blooded politics….In this way, both have come to adopt German theorist Carl Schmitt's concept of the political as reducible to the existential distinction between friends and enemies."
But if it's clear that left and right radicals have turned on liberal values and institutions, there is less evidence that the country as a whole has done so. Until now, this article has used the left and the right to stand in mostly for the activist and intellectual class, along with a few politicians here or there. The American people, on the other hand, are instinctual liberals by and large—not in the sense of being left of center but in the sense of believing at a deep level that even one's fiercest opponents have rights.
The American Aspirations Index, a study released last year that used survey research to rank Americans' priorities for the future of the country, tested 55 "national aspirations" to see whether people care more about having a country in which "people receive a high quality education" or "the middle class is thriving"; one that "is the leader of the free world" or one that "has a criminal justice system that operates without bias"; and so on. For all the sense that Americans are further apart than ever, guaranteeing that "people have individual rights" emerged as the No. 1 answer for every demographic group, regardless of age, ethnicity, urbanity, gender, and education level. It was viewed as twice as important overall as the next-most-chosen result.
Individual liberty, equality under the law, protections against the arbitrary exercise of governmental power—these are unmistakably American values. While influential elements on both the left and the right have turned against them in recent years, most Americans are not on board with total-war politics.
Much has been made of rising affective polarization, and there is some evidence to support the concern. People have become more likely over time to say they would be displeased if they had a son or daughter who married someone from the opposite political party, for example. Yet Americans from both parties are still significantly more likely to say they would not be bothered at all. In fact, a 2020 survey commissioned by The Economist found just 16 percent of Democrats and just 13 percent of Republicans saying they would be "very upset" in that situation. Severe affective polarization remains mostly an elite phenomenon.
In a poll commissioned last year by the group More in Common, three in four respondents agreed that "the differences between Americans are not so big that we cannot come together." Demonization of the other is a powerful political weapon, and those inclined toward authoritarianism are particularly comfortable using it. But what is sometimes called the "grand liberal bargain"—a social truce in which each side broadly agrees to respect the other's freedom, even if it doesn't like what the other side will do with it—is a powerful defense, and one in keeping with the natural ethos of America. It's not too late to choose it.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "The Authoritarian Convergence."
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What is this author talking about ‘both sides?’ The establishment right are moving left, the media, big tech, big businesses, and social media are all moving left! Do you see the right pushing for abandoning our constitutional rights, open borders, abusing our bill of rights, seeking the FBI on free citizens, pushing an anti constitutional and anti democratic abortion rights, shoving alternative lifestyles and castrating children? This is why we have division. You can’t tell the truth! You have to blame both sides because you are too cowardice to put the blame on leftist democrats!
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Both sides!!!!! Let's just complain about both when the overton window has shifted far left and even the right has shifted left. I'm not happy with some of the crap Rs are putting out there, but most of the illiberal stuff is coming from those who regularly side with democrat initiatives. You would think that the presence of several aisle crossers from the right and the monolithic radicalism of the left would make this whole article an embarrassing exercise in false equivalence. The right is far more interested in freedom and is willing to adopt a live and let live attitude on many of their social issues. If Reason "libertarians" actually cared about advancing liberty then they would be extending a hand to the right rather than taking every opportunity to attack them
/sarc off
The right is less-authoritarian than the left. Sure. But less-authoritarian is still authoritarian.
What your saying is that libertarians should abandon all of their principles and beliefs, and side with the less-authoritarian right, because the authoritarian left is worse.
It's the same thing Ken was saying before I pointed out his own logic to him and made him crazy: "Join the authoritarian right! They're less-terrible than the totalitarian left!"
You can GFY along with Slade. The Democrats have gone full Stalin. The secret police are visiting the homes of the dissidents, and are seizing the records of anyone espousing Wrongthink. Nothing even remotely close happens on the other side.
You mean Democrats are totalitarians while Republicans are "mere authoritarian" as Ken would say?
Wow. You convinced me. I should vote for Republicans because Democrats are worse. Yeah. Rah rah rah. Go elephants. Yay.
*snore*
Again, GFY
That’s the only way he’d ever get any.
You don’t vote at all. You’ve said that many times. So does it really matter what you think?
The right in the US is "authoritarian" in the usual sense that liberal democracies have historically been: they impose some social, cultural, and moral restrictions on the people. It's not libertarian, but it's a system under which the West thrived.
The left in the US has become semi-fascist, abusing the power of the state for political ends, persecuting political opponents, and attempting a complete takeover of the economy.
These aren't just quantitatively different, they are qualitatively different.
Exactly!
Nope, totally the same.
/s
Or to put it another way, the lesser of two evils is still evil.
So you are supporting evil and saying libertarians are bad people for not supporting evil.
Let me repeat that. According to you libertarians are bad people because they won't support evil.
/sarc on
Or to put it another way, the lesser of two evils is still evil.
At the same time, being the most ideologically pure gets you nailed to the cross and, depending on your religious beliefs and faith in libertarianism makes you either dead and gone or the progenitor of a third slightly lesser evil, maybe, movement.
/sarc off
I'd rather have a clean conscience than vote for either team.
/sarc on
That might mean something to me one way or the other if 'clean conscience', in any way, translated to 'committed sin'.
'The lesser of two evils' dynamic is exactly the source of the authoritarian dynamic quoted in the article As history teaches, a base whipped up into fear and fury is ready to accept almost anything to ensure its own survival..
/sarc off
Ayn Rand said that in any compromise with evil, evil always wins. Because evil creeps in little by little, unnoticed, until it takes over.
Choosing and defending the lesser of two evils is a compromise with evil which allows it to creep in and take over. It may delay the inevitable, but it in the end it's still support for evil.
People need to say no to evil.
/sarc on
I don't believe it is a 'compromise' with evil. I think it is an obsession about 'evil'. About defining political involvement at the lowest level (2 minutes a year spent voting for someone else to be involved) as evil. And limiting one's involvement to mere voting and then disinfecting oneself.
Nothing remains 'normal' and therefore it becomes almost natural for the entire activity to be positioned as 'the worst possible thing that could ever possibly occur leading to extinction and millions of dead' (easy to fear monger that option) or 'who gives a shit about this option - have you seen the other option?' (easy for that option to become worse and worse).
JFree, you have proven yourself to be a narcissistic moron, given to PANIC attacks and lies.
STFU and get lost.
I'm sure you said something that was both pointless and angry. Probably q.e.d.
You just saw what he said.
Honeybuns, that argument makes no sense. We have a choice between moderate conservatism and progressivism. If you consider both choices to be "evil", then there is no question of "creeping in and taking over", it has already taken over.
Of course, your delusion is in believing that moderate conservatism is "evil" just because it isn't libertarianism.
Moderate conservatism isn't "evil": it doesn't end in poverty, political persecutions, economic collapse, or societal collapse.
Progressivism and democratic socialism, on the other hand, are evil, because poverty, political persecutions, economic collapse, or societal collapse are their endpoints.
Ayn Rand was wrong. There was probably an "Ayn Rand" on the side of evil as well, saying that in any compromise with good, good wins.
Compromise is compromise. And no matter what you do in life, the result is always a compromise.
Fun with hypotheticals:
Behind door number one is a guy with a chainsaw who will kill you.
Behind door number two is a guy who's just gonna slap you around some.
You must choose a door, or chainsaw guy will come out and chop you up anyway.
Common sense dictates door two - the "lesser evil".
At this moment in history, the right is simply the better bet.
Far better for libertarians to join with the side likely to produce the less-objectionable result, and then try to influence them to listen to their "better angels" from within the coalition.
Before all that maybe you should ask yourself whether you've already been fear mongered. Maybe it's just two doors
Christian conservative government isn't "evil"; it's the historical norm in the West. It's not what libertarians prefer, but it is largely what defines "liberal democracy".
Progressives and democratic socialists, on the other hand, really do promote evil.
If you think that Christian conservatism is "evil", there's something seriously wrong with you.
Nobody promotes evil unless they're crazy. Everyone has a different idea of good, that's all.
You ever hear anyone say, "Too bad we can't be more evil. Let's see if we can get more evil in this world."?
Can we agree that murdering innocent people, plunging people into poverty, and using the government to persecute them for their beliefs is objectively evil? Because if we can't agree on that, you're a psychopath and we have nothing else to talk about.
Now, people on the left certainly believe that they are promoting equality, liberty, fairness, tolerance, etc. That's why those ideologies are so popular.
That doesn't change the fact that the actual policies the left promotes lead to authoritarianism, oppression, poverty, and mass killings.
So, both sides believe that they are promoting good and fighting evil. But objectively and historically, the left is wrong.
So you're saying every "left" policy is wrong and every "right" policy is good???
Socialism, fascism, and progressivism (i.e. "the left") aren't just wrong, they are evil, both in their motivations (greed and envy) and their outcomes.
The opposite of "the left" is a wide range of moderate, liberal, and conservative ideologies, not just "the right", and while some of them may be wrong, they are usually not actually evil.
Death to the infidels!
Funny, there was no mention of Christianity or any other religion in the U.S. Constitution or The Bill of Rights. A nation supposedly found on Christianity would say so in it's Founding Documents don't you think?
Except "God" is mentioned and that particular God they had in mind was no doubt Jehovah the Christian one.
We atheists get no respect I tell you!
In the Declaration it's "Nature's God".
The only mention of a God in The Constitution isin the dating of the document. But that doesn't make it religious any more than us using days of the week or months of the year makes us Greco-Roman and Norse Pagans.
So why vote for the lesser evil. Support Cthulhu . Because no lives matter Vote best Evil.????????✌
One of my favorite bumper stickers, along with: "CTHULHU SAVES!...In case he gets hungry later!" 😉
This is like the good child/bad child conundrum. When a good kid and bad kid both get in trouble for the same thing, the parent is inevitably more upset with the good kid.
Just as it would be a mistake to let a good child misbehave rationalized by they're not as bad as the other child, it would be a mistake to accept the leftward economic and authoritarian drifts of the right without complaint simply because they're not as bad as dems.
Just as it would be a mistake to let a good child misbehave rationalized by they're not as bad as the other child, it would be a mistake to accept the leftward economic and authoritarian drifts of the right without complaint simply because they're not as bad as dems.
You must be new here.
Nope, I just like the abuse.
But that's not what's going on here, and is precisely why there are so many complaints about "both sides."
In your hypothetical, the good child ate some cookies without asking while the bad child lit a fire in the living room. Reason is condemning both of them equally.
I'll accept your correction to my hypothetical. I'm not trying to say Reason is being fair. I don't think they are. My point is that libertarians should not just vote republican because democrats are worse, just like eating the forbidden cookie is not OK just because the other kid lit a fire inside.
Libertarianism, in practice and practical effect is nothing more than running cover for the left.
We did not see these sorts of dire warnings about "both sides" heading up to the last elections.
I do not "question the timing" of these sorts of articles. The timing is always obvious.
The only way to not run cover for the left is to praise the right and condemn the left. Being critical of both sides is the same as supporting the left.
Trump wants death penalty for drugs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=000BwoY2rDg&lc=UgyDYqN8XgKsImGVxOZ4AaABAg.9dxw4Al1Fyc9fxicxh6mJp
A vote for Trump is a vote for Xi Jinping - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G3lK_Znr4wM
Also, it's really weird that Reason is consistently critical of the party in power, whichever party it is, from a libertarian point of view.
That's so leftist.
They should support Republicans all the time, no matter who is in power.
That would be libertarian.
it's really weird that Reason is consistently critical of the party in power, whichever party it is
Reason is still critical of Trump and Republicans in Congress.
Yeah, Reason is so "critical" of Biden that Boehm is telling us how gas prices have "tumbled" recently.
Even thought they are still double what they were with Trump.
"Critical" Reason being consistent indeed.
Except the Dems (establishment) were still mostly in power from 2016-2020, and the people behind Biden were definitely still in power.
That’s why the IC were running an attempted coup throughout Trumps presidency. Comey admitted in an interview he “sent a couple of guys over” to set up Flynn. They admitted they were discussing using the 25th amendment but decided to go with Russiagate instead. And Reason fell in line like the rest of the corporate press and acted like a mouthpiece of the IC.
And Biden has been part of the Federal government for half a decade and was part of the prior administration. Yet before 2020 Reason acted like Trump had all the power and was uniquely terrible and Biden would be a refreshing return to “norms”. What norms? The normal people in power, at all levels of the federal government.
So no, Reason is not consistent in there criticism of who’s in power, no matter how ignorant you pretend to be.
Cut Sarc a little slack. His brain is likely compromised form his severe alcoholism, and I suspect being homeless, living in an alley, hasn’t don’t him any favors either.
Trump wants death penalty for drugs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=000BwoY2rDg&lc=UgyDYqN8XgKsImGVxOZ4AaABAg.9dxw4Al1Fyc9fxicxh6mJp
Libertarians should extort Republicans. Libertarians should be kingmakers. We should tell Republicans either they or their candidate dump their anti-libertarian policies like the drug war, and/or foreign military intervention, and various conservative social issues, or the Libertarian Party runs a candidate specifically to siphon votes from the Republican so the Democrat wins. If the Republicans accomodate us and run a libertarianish candidate like a Rand Paul, then either we don't run a candidate in that race and the local Libertarian Party endorses the Republican, run a candidate who will draw more from the Democrat (unlikely), or the Libertarian candidate endorses the Republican. Unfortunately, the current Libertarian Party refuses to use this tactic due to an erroneous concept of being "principled".
If the Republicans want libertarian votes, let them earn them. I would say the same goes for Democrats, but Libertarians tend to draw more from Republicans.
Finally, where there is no Libertarian on the ballot, the Libertarian Party should endorse the most libertarian of the established parties' candidates, if there is a reasonably acceptable one. Libertarians need to understand that it is more "principled" to affect the election in a libertarian (or less collectivist) direction than to have no effect at all or affect it in a collectivist direction.
Libertarians need to exercise swing vote clout.
'
Trump wants death penalty for drugs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=000BwoY2rDg&lc=UgyDYqN8XgKsImGVxOZ4AaABAg.9dxw4Al1Fyc9fxicxh6mJp
A vote for Trump is a vote for Xi Jinping - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G3lK_Znr4wM
Reason can't criticize the left on its own - they waited until the right started fighting back, and now BOTH sides are authoritarian.
I see it here, and I see it on Reddit - many so-called Libertarians have a knee-jerk dislike of conservatives. They are culturally the same as Democrats: they find Republicans and conservatives to be disgusting unpersons. That's why they hate the Mises Caucus so much - most of us lean culturally conservative.
Reason-types think that it's equally evil for Republicans to insist that private companies have to give their employees and customers freedom as it is for Progressives to make private companies censor online content and jab their employees. Bad call, Reason.
The power and influence of left-wing radicals dwarfs the power and influence of so-called right-wing radicals, and until that changes or until Reason acknowledges it, Reason is getting it wrong.
Trump wants death penalty for drugs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=000BwoY2rDg&lc=UgyDYqN8XgKsImGVxOZ4AaABAg.9dxw4Al1Fyc9fxicxh6mJp
But they need product differentiation, so spend most of their effort distinguishing from those most like themselves. It's the conflict of interest between leadership (which benefits from leadership per se) and grass roots (which just want to move things in their desired direction). Leadership is threatened most of all by success.
“In June 2019, Tucker Carlson spent five full minutes during his prime-time Fox News show praising a plan from Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D–Mass.) to promote "economic patriotism." The proposal, which called for "aggressive" government action to bolster domestic manufacturing and keep American companies from creating jobs abroad, "sounds like Donald Trump at his best," Carlson enthused.”
In the previous paragraphs when discussing a position put out by Jacobin, Slade cites…Jacobin. In this paragraph discussing a position put out by Tucker Carlson, Slade cites…CNN.
So while Jacobin’s position and the reasoning behind it are presented in their own words, Tucker’s position and his reasoning behind it are presented by his political enemy and rival network.
Which is nice, since it saves me time from reading the rest of the article.
I don’t agree with every single thing Tucker says, but when it comes to actually “speaking truth to power” on major networks, he’s pretty much alone on the field. Maybe Greenwald.
The idea that he’s “authoritarian” only really makes sense if you hold some tenuously “libertarian” positions.
That open borders are a top priority for our individual Liberty.
That equity = civil rights.
That “criminal Justice reform” = not enforcing laws against theft and violence.
That China is not a national security concern so long as we agree to any and all trade deals with them.
Well, this is a libertarian site. I do agree though that Tucker is one of the few prominent media figures who really challenges the powerful and the standard narrative, and that's a good thing that we need more of even if I don't always agree.
I guess what I meant was most of his positions would only be “authoritarian” to full on AnCaps. But I didn’t want to resurrect Ye Olde Inter-Libertarian arguments of Yore.
My criticism doesn’t even require Tucker to be any of the things you point out, though I mostly agree with your statement.
If you’re going to “both sides”, but only present one side honestly, you’re not really even both sidesing. You’re presenting one side, while letting that same side present the other side. It’s dishonest.
For sure. I get your point. I’m just piling on. And the dishonesty feels so prevalent now it actually makes me wonder the mag was always like that when I was subscribing and donating for years.
When I think back to pre-obama reason mag, there wasn't this clear cut tendency to favor one party. Something shifted during the 8 years of gaslighting, and reason started a downward spiral.
There were more anti-Trump articles before 2020 then there was pro-libertarian candidate articles by A LOT. That didn’t used to be the case.
"The [ACLU] has taken numerous Catholic hospitals to court in an effort to make them perform abortions and gender transitions against their will."
The ACLU is a wonderful organization. I'm proud to call myself a donor. Only freedom-hating wingnuts disagree with any aspect of its mission.
#TemporarilyFillingInForButtplug
Stephanie coming out strong for genocidal regimes and fascist repression of civil liberties.
Haven't browsed this site in like 4 years, and it seems to have gotten worse in every way. Still the same pointless 'voth
..."both sides" articles. And the site is completely unusable with all the ads and poor mobile functionality. I didn't mean to post a half-written comment but there we are. No edit or delete button?
Great point.
The only acceptable discourse is disgust for Democrats combined with great praise for Republicans.
Criticism of both sides equals support for Democrats, and anyone who says such things is a leftist.
Criticism of Republicans equals support for Democrats, and anyone who says such things is a leftist.
Criticism of Democrats without praise for Republicans equals support for Democrats, and anyone who says such things is a leftist.
Too bad everyone isn't so open minded.
Articles are allowed to be about one thing. But every single Reason article is "both sidesism." Either that or creating some sweeping narritive, like how hard they were pushing the "Libertarian Moment" years ago. Which completely failed as Libertarians we're not able to capitalize on the historic unpopularity of Trump and Hillary/Biden. So the Libertarian Moment was over before it began, but it's ok because the Reason staff can keep their same smug, above it all attitude.
Better than arguing over how much cyanide to put into the Kool-Aid.
well being that a trace amount of cyanide wont do anything, and a large helping of it will kill you, I would argue that's a pretty fucking important distinction
Go easy on him, he’s doing his best. It’s sad and pathetic, but still his best.
At this point, yes. Democrats have literally become semi-fascists over the past couple of decades.
Reading through this you come to realize "You know, they both have a point. The other side is doing that."
The problem is that they both come to the wrong solution in that they just want to shove their side down everyones' throat.
I want to force people to leave me alone.
I am starting to feel like I am in the middle of the battlefield between the extreme left and the extreme right, with no say or influence how things turn out. Both sides are pushing extremes of change (I do think that the left started it all, and is pushing harder). But I sit in the middle, and do not see a need for any of the changes that either the extreme left or the extreme right wants. I don't want to go back to religious prayers in schools (I remember them), or woke indoctrination. I thought that the original Supreme Court decision about letting women control their own bodies for the first trimester was very reasonable, and don't think that Abortion-Until-Birth should be legalized, except for very extreme situations, but also don't think that the morning after pill or even birth control pills are an extreme abortion. Everyone is entitled to say what they want, and print/disseminate whatever they want, within the limits of fraud, real fighting words, libel, or defamation. There should not be ANY forbidden words, so I would throw out the entire concept of obscenity, whether related to religion, sex, feelings, or politics. And I don't see any problem with an unequal distribution of wealth, or skills or knowledge or wisdom. It might be nice if everyone was equally wise, but it isn't going to happen, ever. True equity is a false concept, born of a desire to cut down all the trees so that they are all "equally tall".
I wonder where the libertarians stand on all of these issues. No one ever talks or prints anything about those of us in the middle who just want to live in a society that works, and have the freedom to behave as we wish, as long as it does not impact others. Whether it is knitting, taking drugs that might kill us, dangerous sports, owning guns, or owning large mutant cats. Doing stuff that the Smart People argue "hurts other people because it is silly or stupid or could result in some sort of calculated societal "cost"" is none of their business. Both sides have taken up that false calculation argument and are beating those of us in the middle with it, to make us take sides.
I say, "A pox on both of your houses!"
Spare us all the both sides-ism, Reason. While I was no fan of the religious right’s control of the culture back when people couldn’t even say, “horny” on the radio, I’m not seeing anything like the Mar-A-Lago raid or holding the Jan 6 protesters in solitary confinement for two years (with no trial) coming from Republicans. Nothing that authoritarian happened when Trump was in office.
Face facts - The Libertarian Party has zero future. No amount of both sides-ing will change that. Even if you get a libertarian elected, they’ll just become a Republican or Democrat by another name…or get thrown out of office.
You should find Libertarian Party people around the country and sing to them "Nanny nanny naa-naa! You'll never wi-in! Why bother try-ing! Nanny nanny naa-naa!"
Trying would be a nice change of pace.
>> Trying would be a nice change of pace.
Then work to shrink the swamp in DC. Very few people will cast an experimental vote when the federal government is ruining their financial lives and threatening imprisonment for disagreeing with their leftist ideology. I certainly won’t.
Nothing that authoritarian happened when Trump was in office.
So the nationalization of the rental housing market by the Executive Branch wasn't "that authoritarian" enough for you?
see: CDC eviction moratorium September 4, 2020
Authoritarian stuff did happen, but it's worse under the Party of the Jackass. An eviction moratorium, yes, but instead of ending it, the next President tried to push it even further until SCOTUS told him to screw off.
As Ken would say "Vote for authoritarians because totalitarians are worse!"
And instead of the R's rising as one in protest of this communist act, they sat quietly hoping that this would just go away. Cowards the lot of them.
But yeah Biden sucks harder, such an accomplishment to be better than Joe Biden. That's the participation trophy of politics.
That's because voters wanted this. Face it: what American voters want first and foremost is handouts from the government.
Well, in our representative democracy, our representatives give voters what they want.
the next President tried to push it even further until SCOTUS told him to screw off
Which he then ignored and continued to push farther anyway.
"Two weeks to slow the spread" - enacted under and encouraged by one Donald J. Trump.
Trump talked a good game, but that's really all he was good for. Like Obama, his entire presidency was devoted to yanking the Overton window in a direction that it probably wouldn't have otherwise gone.
Are you fucking kidding me? The knock on him at the time was that he was reckless with his response to the pandemic and was seen as being dragged into shutting the country down. There is no fucking doubt that if he would have resisted the closure and not shut down the country that the democrats would have impeached him immediately in the name of safety and all the spineless Republicans would have voted to remove him from office.
Every other day was the media (and this shit hole site Reason) lambasting the man for being hopeful that he could lift the shutdown sooner rather than later. This is the same media and political party that took glee in daily death numbers and talked incessantly about how everyday life was irrevocably changed; you bigots were going to have to stay home and mask indefinitely. So please spare me the “bOtH SiDeS” bullshit that certain people on this site go to anytime a modicum of criticism is leveled at leftists and the democrat party. It’s dishonest and insulting to anyone with an IQ over 85.
The knock on him at the time was that he was reckless with his response to the pandemic and was seen as being dragged into shutting the country down.
That knock was stupid.
There is no fucking doubt that if he would have resisted the closure and not shut down the country that the democrats would have impeached him immediately in the name of safety and all the spineless Republicans would have voted to remove him from office.
This is too dumb to merit a proper response. They couldn't get a conviction after Jan. 6th, when he was already the lamest of ducks and it seemed like he just tried to instigate a coup. Nobody will ever be impeached over a policy disagreement, especially not when the policy is unpopular.
please spare me the “bOtH SiDeS” bullshit that certain people on this site go to anytime a modicum of criticism is leveled at leftists and the democrat party.
I'm certainly not a both sides kind of guy - the authoritarian tendencies of the current left are part and parcel with the next stage of the Democratic Party's evolution, while those of the right are mostly a reaction to that evolution. But to say "nothing that authoritarian happened during the Trump administration" blames someone else for the 800 lb gorilla he spent several months leading around.
”This is too dumb to merit a proper response. They couldn't get a conviction after Jan. 6th, when he was already the lamest of ducks and it seemed like he just tried to instigate a coup.”
Who cares about an impeachment and removal when the next president is days away from being sworn in? Of course they didn’t do anything, Trump was already gone. Had something like Jan 6th occurred in 2018 or 2019 he would have been gone in a heartbeat. Either you weren’t in the States during the pandemic, were too insulated to understand the political environment of the time and the mass fear the country was experiencing or you don’t know how to read a room. All the Republicans, who hated him at the time, needed was a good reason to remove him and the mass hysteria over Covid-19 would have been the cover for them to do so. They don’t call the republicans The Party of Stupid for no reason. To lay this squarely at the feet of Trump and not acknowledge the political environment at the time is just pure claptrap.
Getting accreditation just comes naturally.
President Clinton stopped short of calling himself by the libertarian monicker but did say his views were close. I see his libertarian policies as time goes by, besides being aware of those otherly skeletons of the 'almost'. Now if each president did equal time to represent the entire popular political spectrum, then maybe libertarians would have an opportunity to bask in that warm glow of getting a well-deserved or at least honorably fair turn ... ?
What we have lost is moderates from both parties and with it the ability to compromise. Instead, we find each side arguing for its own ideas at the expense of the others. What should be concerning is that are election are not even helping. In the past, the more moderate centrist candidate could be expected to prevail. But the current primary structure now seems to be leaving us with two extreme candidates to choose from. Joe Manchin, Kyrstin Sinema, Mitty Romney, and Larry Hogan are not the problem they are part of the solution.
I'm glad we seem to be losing the ability to compromise with progressives and democratic socialists.
"Joe Manchin, Kyrstin Sinema, Mitty Romney, and Larry Hogan are not the problem they are part of the solution."
Tell me you don't understand how Constitutionally limited government works, without actually saying it. I don't know much about Hogan, but the other 3 are big government elitist. No matter the problem, their solution is always, big daddy government. Despite, you know, the Constitution giving said government no authority to solve said problem(s).
If that is what you see as moderation, you are actually part of the problem.
It was your so-called "moderates" and establishment types that got us in this mess to begin with. Your moderates always compromise toward bigger government, more spending, more debt, and more intrusive government. And Mitt Romney being the solution to anyone's problem beyond answering the question of "why we shouldn't elect anyone from Massachusetts" is laughable (sorry Utah).
I would disagree with your assertion. We have been getting more polarized with the extremist gaining influence and yet government gets larger. That because extremists both left and right want big government, they just want it to be their vision of big government. I cannot guarantee that government will not get bigger, historically they always do, but I believe that if parties need to give and take it can slow the speed of the increase. Joe Manchin and Kyrstin Sinema did not stop legislation, but they made it slower and smaller.
"Demonization of the other is a powerful political weapon, "
Not merely a political weapon. More importantly, it's the way our social media companies exploit our hopes and fears to bring in advertising revenue. They've discovered that demonization, fragmentation and polarization are good for business. They keep people angry and clicking more effectively that pictures of cute kittens. I don't think anyone understood that the Internet would foster and promote our devolution into tribalism.
Yeah, tell me about it. Even the writers at Reason, a formerly libertarian-leaning publication, keep pushing their illiberal, authoritarian policies.
No shit. Immigration and free trade are authoritarian as fuck. Fucking leftists.
You mean the immigration whose healthcare I was explicitly told I had to pay for? That free-wheeling, let-it-all-hang-out kind of liberty?
" the immigration whose healthcare I was explicitly told I had to pay for?"
Reason is against taxation, especially higher taxation, and publishes articles against taxation and socialized medicine routinely. They also, though less frequently, publish articles decrying government efforts to prevent people and institutions who wish to provide comfort and assistance to those in need on a purely voluntary basis. You seem to be as confused as NOYB2 as to what illiberalism is about.
It would be nice if they'd combine the two great flavors in one article.
How nice. But you can't be against taxation and for open borders separately; the two stances must be linked: as long as taxation is high, the borders must remain closed. Unlinking the two positions turns you from a libertarian into a socialist.
You know nothing about "illiberalism".
Unilateral illegal migration and unilateral tariff-free trade are indeed authoritarian as fuck, in particular when the nation into which the illegals and goods flow is a high tax social welfare state.
Yes, you're a fucking leftist.
"Unilateral illegal migration and unilateral tariff-free trade are indeed authoritarian as fuck"
Because actions taken by people without government permission are authoritarian as fuck. Only after getting the government's stamp of approval is an action truly anti-authoritarian. You are just as confused about the meaning of authoritarian as you are about illiberalism. You should embrace your illiberal, authoritarian inner self rather than projecting it on to others, is my advice.
Obviously, the people crossing the borders without government permission, and the foreign manufacturers that are free of US regulations and tariffs are enjoying a great deal of liberty. Are you so dumb that you think that needs pointing out?
The authoritarianism occurs where the US government forces US citizens to pay for all this crap. And the US government is encouraged to do that by "democratic socialists" like you.
You are a fucking socialist. Go to hell.
"Obviously, the people crossing the borders without government permission, and the foreign manufacturers that are free of US regulations and tariffs are enjoying a great deal of liberty. "
And you don't want them to enjoy this liberty. You want them to be regulated and taxed by the government instead. And you think somehow this makes you anti-authoritarian.
So in the world you advocate, citizens like me are enslaved to the US government for half of our working hours, but non-citizens can walk across the border and shouldn't even be regulated or taxed?
Good god, I thought regular open borders people were bad, but you take the cake.
I'm insisting on equality under the law and respect for basic human rights. You are advocating the violation of both of those principles.
I would argue that when left-illiberalism was flourishing (hence my comment below) they either aggressively ignored it or accused the people with defensive knife wounds on their hands as fighting "pointless kultur war".
FFS, where was the 'rising illiberalism' article in 2020?
"FFS, where was the 'rising illiberalism' article in 2020?"
So, Reason is not sufficiently tribal. You seem to have missed the point of the article, which is bemoaning our polarization and fragmentation.
When the flaghship libertarian publication can't get its blood up about rising illiberalism, even refusing to call it and the parties involved out such as other libertarian publications on the other side of the planet, then forgive me if I'm not waving the Reason flag.
Read carefully, this is how you throw a culture war punch.
It's usually much easier to criticize a media publication for what it doesn't publish than what it does. Blame the editors if you are interested in taking cheap shots.
"Even the writers at Reason"
It's actually the editors who decide what gets published or not. They concentrate on promoting free speech, unregulated gun ownership, free movement of goods, people and ideas, the rights of property owners to dispose of their property as they wish, etc. These are hardly illiberal ideas.
While snickering at the vast censorship schemes which were directed by government actors behind the scenes, and even defending them as... what was it... oh yeah: "the rights of property owners to dispose of their property as they wish."
"While snickering at the vast censorship schemes which were directed by government actors behind the scenes,"
Vast schemes directed by unknown actors behind the scenes tend to be ignored by our media as conspiracy theories. I think a careful examination of the articles in Reason reveal they are about actual people doing actual things and moreover, they have a libertarian slant to them. Such as the promotion of free movement of goods, people and ideas and the rights of property owners. Do you have any particular articles in mind to bolster your notion of Reason as illiberal?
I am not in agreement that Reason is particularly illiberal. I consider them ineffective and blind to a certain brand of illiberalism. I also accuse them of cheering on illiberalism if it comes cloaked in left-wing platitudes of freedom. Example: open borders. Who could be against the free movement of people?
What if I'm told by 100% of the major candidates of one political party that when they arrive here, I need to get out my credit card and pay for their healthcare?
RACIST!
Private corporations should be able to do whatever they want with their platforms?
What if 100% of those corporations are strongly aligned with a particular party and a singular ideology, and they're literally on the phone with powerful government officials who also share that party and ideology, and are taking instruction on who to ban and whose speech to limit to minimize their impact on the political landscape?
SECTION 230 IS THE FIRST AMENDMENT OF THE INTERNET!
"What if I'm told by 100% of the major candidates of one political party that when they arrive here, I need to get out my credit card and pay for their healthcare?"
I don't think Reason would support that party. At least not for those Reasons.
"What if 100% of those corporations are strongly aligned with a particular party and a singular ideology"
Again, unless you have the Libertarian Party in mind, you're barking up the wrong tree. The only party Reason consistently supports is that party, and even then we see critical articles from time to time.
The problem with American politics isn't polarization—it's rising illiberalism.
We've been talking about this in the comments since 2015.
Exactly. Now the question: did we really need a novel- length article to say that?
FFS! The problem is too damned much government intruding into too much of our daily lives. People get frustrated at so much meddling and lash out by trying to get more government benefits for themselves or by siccing government on everybody else.
When government was restricted to true community projects, like a military, the only affect on individuals was taxes, and before the income tax, that was mostly tariffs and booze. Did you know that booze taxes were half of federal income before the income tax? Did you know that sales taxes weren't invented until the 1930s?
Too damned much government, that's the fundamental problem.
That and the rent's too damned high.
So let's get on government to fix that, shall we? That is how people think nowadays, because of too much government.
And on that note, what kind of mumbskulls make rules to be in the business of making rules, put there again and again by a broken electorate, an electorate deliberately kept broken by same?
Elected numbskulls!
If they dont have any high standards set by private services, then they would only want more & more from an ineffective government assigned to shut them up =^]
I can recommend this book/site:
https://theauthoritarians.org/
I think that one major difference between the authoritarian left and right in the US atm is that on the left, authoritarianism is distributed, while on the right it's centralised. There is no Trump-like figure on the left around whom the authoritarians of the left rally.
There is no Trump-like figure on the left around whom the authoritarians of the left rally.
They just generally rally around Marx.
Something like half The Old Soviet Union, half Zimbabwe new Utopia
Nah. You need a physical demagogue, not a bookish weirdo beardo mit ein accent.
JB Pritzker is the model
"They just generally rally around Marx."
These are your daddy's leftists. Today's leftists are feminists, environmentalists, anarchists, LGBT activists, vegans etc. They are often just as anti-Marxist as you are. The old school class warriors are a minority found in largely in academia. Also BLM activists seem to draw their intellectual ammo from Marx.
They have enough action figures and comics of their heroes/heroines to more than make up for the lack of a single leader. And their zealotry more than makes up for any shortcomings.
>>Just about everyone knows it, but it can be hard to put your finger on what it is.
we let the ruling class rule. we shouldn't do that.
The Democrat and Republican parties may have become more polarized, but I don't feel that the voters have. The issue is that the voters believe that there are only two choices and both the Democrat and Republican parties present terrible choices. They campaign against their opposition through fear.
What needs to be done to correct the polarization is the rise of viable third parties to break the stranglehold. The Republican party is ineffectual and uninspired, and the Democrat party is unrealistic and irrational. Neither has a solution for pretty much anything other than how to line their pockets.
The issue is that the voters believe that there are only two choices and both the Democrat and Republican parties present terrible choices. They campaign against their opposition through fear.
^
"What needs to be done to correct the polarization is the rise of viable third parties to break the stranglehold. "
More likely one of more parties will split into opposing parties over a particularly contentious issue. If memory serves, it was the Tories who split in the 19th century over the question of free trade, forming the Liberal party.
What we see here is each side trying to use ju-jitsu on their opposite, just slightly redirecting their motion, i.e. letting them go in the direction they want, but arriving at your goal instead of theirs. Great if all you want to do is win, and don't care where you both wind up.
I'm sorry but one side wants to go full Maoist Cultural Revolution and the other side does not.
I'm way more afraid of the Maoists than the church ladies.
Sorry, but this incredibly long-winded article is just a rehash of stuff we've known for years.
I probably could've summarized this bloat in one paragraph. Or maybe one sentence. Or maybe a haiku.
Left is full Maoist
Right still wants Pat Robertson
result is Brandon?
The convergence between "left" and "right" re freedom of communication looks like a convergence only from the libertarian perspective. Our point of view distorts perceptions. All we tend to see is movement away from freedom, i.e. movement away from where we stand, but from other perspectives these movements don't look convergent at all.
Both sides yep. Wake me up when a Republican murders a journalist, or, when a Republican decides to murder D senators at a softball game, or, when Reason admits that a republic cannot have open borders, in a world of eight billion people, into a progressive welfare state.
The movement of people is what's important here. The economic policies of that political district are irrelevant.
The highly paid libertarian academic ideological purists agree!!
Right-wingers have been, by far, the overwhelming perpetrators of political violence in this country for as long as both of us have been alive.
That one baseball game was not the only political violence ever, despite what you may have learned on FOX New.
People stormed the US capitol in order to obstruct the presidential election, in the name of the Republican president. You have no arguments anymore. Your movement is dead.
And looked at reasonably, religious freedom has never been endangered in modern time in the USA. They don't forbid you to be Catholic or whatever. Instead it's all about certain people who happen to be religious and who object to or want to do certain things that might plausibly be connected to their religion, but that most people even of that religion wouldn't say it's a necessary feature of. Laws targeting groups specifically because of their religion are practically unheard of, they're just looking for an excuse to be exempted from some general law.
That is BS. You cannot decide what is important to a person’s religious beliefs based on some half assert of the bulk of cafeteria religiosos.
My faith is more than just where I go on Sunday. It dictates how I invest, what charities I give to, how I spend my days, what work I choose to do, and how I spend my time and energy. That’s the case for most devout people. Some are fine with things others are not. That is supposed to be the beauty of freedom - to EXERCISE our faith as we see fit.
And for what it’s worth, I think the same should apply to conscience.
.In this way, both have come to adopt German theorist Carl Schmitt's concept of the political as reducible to the existential distinction between friends and enemies."
You know which Marvel Comics villian had the last name of Schmitt?
"Both Left and Right Are Converging on Authoritarianism"
A complaint regarding the "Right" embracing authoritarian measures would've made more sense to me during the early 2000s. Not so much now. And trade protectionism had always had a place on both sides, I don't buy that it's evidence of some new convergence toward authoritarianism. Likewise, Knowles's statement was idiotic, but I've heard social conservatives make stupid statements like this before with little power to actually enforce them.
Since at least 2014ish I've seen conservatives partly move away from the destructive neoconservative/drug warrior/crony capitalist impulses that dominated the GOP, particularly during the early 2000s. A Republican President passed criminal justice reform, took a pro-states' rights view on marijuana legalization, broke with the Hawks in his party on further intervention and pulling out of Afghanistan, and appoint a conservative judge who questions qualified immunity among other things.
Are conservatives now libertarian? No of course not. But pretending we haven't seen a change in the right direction is frankly pathetic. I'll take populist conservatives like J.D. Vance and Tucker Carlson any day over most of what GOP and conservatives used to be during the Bush years.
Let's see...from where I sit, it looks a lot like most on the Left are bent on destroying conservatism. There are a few nut jobs on the right, but damned few. So both "movements" are converging on authoritarianism.
Really?
That's like saying that 98% of lawyers make the rest look bad.
This is a somewhat ridiculous word salad that misses the easy explanations.
Republicans are not becoming more authoritarian, and they are not rejecting the principles of capitalism, they are rejecting corporatism and globalism... neither that are part of capitalism as design.
The funny thing is that the emerging socialist and MAGA people have the same driving source of anger... and the establishment cannot survive if they get it and start to work together.
That brings us to the second source... the algorithms. The establishment is exploiting the algorithms to divide the political parties and keep them at each other's throats so that they don't both turn on the political establishment. The MAGA people have already turned on the establishment, but the socialist and their radical wokeist cohort, for some reason, keep supporting the establishment.
Turn off the algorithms today and there would be a great coming together of people to vote out the establishment and break apart the Wall Street corporatist cabal.
"Something is broken in our politics." It broke in 1790 when the "Articles" were dumped for an authoritarian constitution which was tantamount to an anti-American coup.
It took time to develop, about a century, but by the end of the nineteenth century, children were forced to "swear allegiance" to their rulers, the opposite of the American Dream of the officials serving us.
That's our problem, not theirs. Why? We live under their rule, by choice. Every time we vote, we are granting authority to others to run our lives, and the lives of other citizens who don't vote because they dissent, they just want to "live & let live". Freedom to enjoy our rights, to reason for ourselves, to choose, is not allowed anywhere in the world. We are all guilty until we prove to the satisfaction of our masters we should be shown mercy. Obey their chaotic law. Why? Resistance is futile. You have been assimilated.
Tell me you got a better idea.
Billionaire or millionaire, person or corporation, these minorities certainly don't have the difference to offer without reducing consumer benefit as their working funding grinds to an halt before a circus of contestants not directed at serving consumers with any natural interest in appealing on grounds of a favorite.
We could to back to wooden train sets and wooden cars if we follow just any tune that strides in on a socialist mission.
Sure. The opponents of the Jan 6th coup are just as authoritarian as the Confederates.
The reason for the trend toward authoritarianism is that liberal civics is no longer taught in our schools. Instead, civics has focused on activism, with left-wing teachers pushing it so kids push their values. Unfortunately for them, many of their former students turned rightward, and apply the techniques taught to right-leaning causes. You simply cannot have a nuanced political discussion any more - it’s now a bunch of chest-beating. I too am disappointed with the shift away from liberal economics to state-directed economics, be it socialism or a return to mercantilism (which means the GOP is returning to its traditional home).
Everyone is promoting democracy instead of the republic our brilliant founders mandated in Article 4, Section 4 of our constitution. Everyone also knows that de-mob-ocracy allows the best organized mob to force everyone to march in lockstep with it. No one likes to be forced to do anything. So, is it a surprise that everyone is afraid and belligerent?
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Democracy_vs_Republic
That link doesn't do a very good job of distinguishing the terms or of highlighting the commonalities in how they were used in the founding ere or in modern times.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/01/19/the-u-s-is-both-a-republic-and-a-democracy/
There are other articles in other places that say many of the same things that Eugene Volokh did there, but that is just one example here at Reason that covers that ground.
The most important point of the Founding and the Constitution was for the government (federal and state levels) to represent the will of the people, rather than the will of a monarch or other small group of wealthy aristocrats. The terms democracy and republic both capture that principle as used by just about everyone, including the Founders. The Founders skepticism of "democracy" was in the form of "a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person" (Federalist No.10). For them, democracy in the broader sense (that the popular will would be expressed through a majority of representatives elected by a majority of the voters in that jurisdiction) was also inherent in their conception of what a republic would be.
One thing that the Founders definitely did not wish to see occur, would be for representatives to enact government policy when those policies were opposed by a majority of the people. That will happen occasionally, no matter how a representative government is structured. That is because no method of choosing representatives can be finely grained enough that the chosen representatives will exactly match a majority of the people on every issue. But that should definitely not be something that should happen regularly and without the people being able to correct those mistakes at the ballot box in the next election.
This is where the Constitution is failing us. The equal representation of the people in each state in the Senate was viewed as a necessary compromise to get the smaller populated states to go along with the Constitution, but Hamilton and/or Madison in the Federalist Papers gave really half-hearted defenses of that structure. They basically said that other structures in the Constitution, such as the population-based representation in the House would temper any problems it caused. That hasn't been true in recent decades, if it ever was.
The geographic shift of the two party dynamics to being largely a rural vs. urban divide has made the Senate less representative of the majority of the country. Republican politicians and voters like this because it benefits them, but the as bad as the "tyranny of the majority" can be, tyranny of the minority is worse. The Senate, as it exists now, has given those representing a minority of the country the power to block ordinary legislation desired by the majority through the filibuster, even when that minority doesn't end up with a majority of the seats in the Senate with its disproportionate advantage. Supermajorities are only required by the Constitution in three cases: ratifying treaties, amending the Constitution, and removing elected officials from office or those appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. For everything else, a simple majority of both houses of Congress plus the consent of the President was expected to be sufficient to make law. Giving 41 senators a veto on proposed legislation when they could represent well below 41% of the population is neither democratic nor republican.
Add in partisan gerrymandering and partisan Supreme Court rulings protecting that and other anti-majoritarian acts, and we are moving away from a republic that represents the will of a majority of the country to a system where a minority can assert its will instead. Perhaps that is the real desire of those that claim that the U.S. is a republic and not a democracy. They really just don't like the idea that a majority that they disagree with would have power that they want for themselves.
This pile of lefty shit supports murder to prevent someone from putting feet on a desk:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
Eat shit and die, asshole.
Ms (?) Slade, for future reference:
1.Left: a.hyperbolic rhetoric + b.ill intent towards out-group + c.demonstrable action up to and including federal government actors
2.Right: a.hyperbolic rhetoric + b.ill intent towards out-group + c.little to no demonstrable action except*
* (see 1.a. Left hyperbolic rhetoric)
This does not make for a convincing both sides are bad argument, but makes the author and publication seem biased.
"This does not make for a convincing both sides are bad argument,"
ie Slade is not tribal enough. Maybe a discrete ivory tusk through her nose would make you happy.
trueman is certainly stupid enough to hope trolling here will get someone to click on his web site and double the monthly traffic.
Reason writes a lot of partisan garbage, but this has to be the biggest piece of garbage yet. Supporting tariffs against unfair trade with hostile nations is not Authoritarianism. Tariffs have been used since the beginning or our nation. We also found out lack of industry puts us at high risk in times of crisis and war.
What is Authoritarianism? Mandate, censorship, attacks on the Constitution and Bill of Rights, especially the 1st and 2nd amendment. Political legal harassment of opposition party's leaders and members. Keeping opposition party members in jails for years with no charges, bail or trial. After swearing to uphold US law, then picking and choosing some very important laws not to enforce like the border. Trying to nationalize elections while holding power. Spreading lies though government disinformation board. Calling anyone that disagrees with you terrorists and fascists. Threatening opposition governors and finally threatening to F-15 and nuke Citizens of the USA.
Now which party is doing all of the above? That would be the Democratic party. One riot is not Authoritarianism, especially when it was fomented by the FBI. If a riot is Authoritarianism then that is also the Democrats that rioted and burnt Federal buildings in the west.
Don't forget slavery. Forcing slave women to reproduce by involuntary labor was supposed to be abolished by the 13th Amendment. Superstitious republicans and antichoice infiltrators in general demand that that peculiar coercion (Article 4, Section 3) be expanded to enslave women of ALL races.
No women are being enslaved. If a woman doesn't want to have children, she can simply choose not to have sex.
The one thing Wallace was right about is that "there ain't a dime's wuth of difference between republican and democrat parties." As Orwell so aptly remarked, "classifying communism and fascism as much the same thing... and not assuming that either must be violently struggled against--is essentially an American attitude." Euro-altruism has so tainted These States that Americans have lost sight of freedom and The Almighty Dollar that our own Kleptocracy has become commie Dems and sanctimonious fascist Grabbers Of Pussy. See orwelllibrary.files.wordpress
Makes good points, but is excessively wordy, repeating the same arguments over and over.
Exactly. I wonder if the author had someone proofread this before submitting?
Jumped the shark equating tariffs with authoritarianism. Sounds like gaslighting straight out of the state media playbook. The regime gives reason a wink and a nudge.
For the first 100 years of its existence, the American people understood that freedom means people doing what they want to do within the constraints of each person's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But, by the end of the 19th century, so many European immigrants had come over that this understanding was largely lost. Those immigrants brought what is now called "Christian Conservatism". A simplified version of the philosophy they brought withem would be "you can't just let people do whatever theyvwant to", echoing the traditional Christan authority of European culture. They passed laws against "immorality" and this is what weakened our Constitutional rights. It is based on contempt for those who are considered to be "irresponsible". That contempt has permeated all of our society. They're trying to rewrite American history by saying that it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. For 2000 years, "Judeo-Christian principles" were an intercessory priesthood that ordained the absolute monarch who ruled by divine right. That's exactly what our American Revolution overthrew.
Interesting...the Prohibition movement wasn't primarily by European immigrants, but was opposed and defied by them...nativists noted this - the tendency to drink and vote wet - in their antiimmigration arguments.
These "both sides" articles in recent weeks have just been really off the mark. Most commenters here seem to agree with that assessment, but for completely different reasons that mine. They essentially typify the affective polarization that Ms. Slade talks about as they express how they view Democrats as being worse than anything Republicans are doing.
But the real problem is that for all of the different things she brings up as being "authoritarian" tendencies of each side, she does not give much of any space to the biggest threat. That threat is the efforts by Trump and his supporters to undermine the very basis of the American Experiment: that government is chosen by the people, and that leaders voted out of office accept the choices of the people and leave.
A Wayne County, Michigan Republican Party chairwoman was recently recorded during a virtual training session instructing poll watchers and poll workers to take notes during the election, which violates election rules. (Poll watchers and workers are not to write things down or have recording devices as they work or observe election procedures.) When someone pointed that out to the chairwoman on the call, she said, "That's why you've got to do it secretly."
This doesn't seem to be a one-off thing, either. So many Republican politicians and conservative media figures have pushed the fraud narrative, that some Trump-supporting Republican voters are so sure that Democrats have cheated and will cheat, that they will except actually breaking election rules or laws in an effort to prove it or prevent it. That is getting close to the kind of justification you see for cops beating confessions out of suspects, because they just know that they are guilty. It is also the kind of justification you see for the independent legislature theory that suggests that a state legislature could, after the election, decide that there was 'too much uncertainty or fraud' to go with the official results and just vote to award the state's presidential electors how they want.
I'm not defending the things that Democrats or "the left" is doing that deserves criticism. But undermining elections is beyond any policy differences between the parties. Only threats to Free Speech are as dangerous. Wanting to dial back free trade, spend more on social welfare programs, forgive student loans, or even banning abortion are not on the same level. No questions about policy matter if the government is not accountable to the voters. And if those in power at the moment won't run fair elections or accept that they lose an election, then they aren't accountable to the voters.
*To answer the obvious reply, fraud should not be allowed either. But election fraud is a crime. It should require the same level of proof that one uses to convict people of crimes, presented in the same kind of forum, with the same ability to challenge the evidence, and all judged by people with as much neutrality as is humanly possible. You don't just claim that an election was "stolen" by "fraud", present your "evidence" on social media, books, documentaries, cable TV, and then expect partisan legislators to vote to toss the results because your side believes it.
This pile of lefty shit supports murder to prevent someone from putting feet on a desk:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
Eat shit and die, asshole.
What a silly piece. It struggles mightily to equate real, dangerous, leftist authoritarianism with strawmen interpretation of the right.
The right simply means socialist looters who profess to like Jesus, like Adolf Hitler, T. Roosevelt, B. Mussolini, Gen. Franco, Vidkun Quisling, and practically every important member of the National Socialist Workers' Party. Even in Orwell's time fascist collaborators rightly accused communists of chiseling the crucifixes off of gravestones--an act Orwell witnessed. Even today, Christian looters and people's collectivist nonchristian looters are at each others' throats over superstition, not murderous looting approved by both.
Leftists are authoritarian because they advocate being polite to minorities. Rightists are for freedom because they want to overthrow the government and install Trump as dictator, and Trump loves freedom.
“Converging on?” The Uniparty has been there as long as I’ve been alive!
Nixon has been using your income tax form "donations" to have the IRS subsidize "both" halves of The Kleptocracy. This trick is copied elsewhere to subsidize non-libertarian parties until there are a dozen communist and a dozen fascist parties. The subsidies are mandatory and cannot be refused, so allowing a libertarian party would "unduly burden the taxpayer." Besides, once you have 2 dozen looter parties banning everything except taxes, what more could you want?
The title of this reads like typical left-wing Propaganda - attempting to draw a false parallel between left and right. As always, it fails.
All forms of totalitarianism are left wing. Today's Republican party is still, as it was at its inception, principally in line with Classical Liberalism (equal individual rights, small government, objective rule of law) - or in a single word, Liberty. There is no such thing as "extremist Liberty," nor "radical freedom." Only the left are in favor of Fascism (or other varieties of totalitarianism).
The Republican party began as Red Republicans, complete with Jacobin caps and agreeing with Red Terror Frenchmen on most things, including opposition to chattel slavery. They are naked that way in Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin. It was Barbie who noted that "He who is not a republican at twenty compels one to doubt the generosity of his heart; but he who, after thirty, persists, compels one to doubt the soundness of his mind. Looters generous with someone else's money describes both halves of The Kleptocracy.
Pathetic. Fuck off and die, asshole.
Conspicuously absent from your post is the word democracy. Is it pro-freedom for you to have a dictator as long as he supports the right tax policy?
Steph is a mystical antichoice Republican infiltrator like Ron and Randal Paul, so the irony is lost on her. This article echoes Peikoff's 1984 warning that "Germany had conservatives who wanted to control people's minds" and looters bent on controlling their bodies. Then along came Positive Christian Hitler and said "Gentlemen, you're both right--we need total control." They got that in 1933-35.
When you both-sides something, it serves only to give the more radical side license to get more radical.
One side explicitly favors increased democracy, across the board. The other side explicitly favors overruling democracy when it doesn't win, through every means they can get their grubby hands on.
Both sides have always, without pause, favored using the government to do things, so if that's your definition of authoritarian, it's pretty goddamn useless.
"The country is coming apart ideologically: rich elites.. ah er.. that is 'Free Markets' the biggest victim!"
As someone who's sat back and tried to stay out of the ideological and political grouping... This isn't surprising.
This article does do a great job of pointing out the disparity between both sides actual efforts at crushing liberal civility and a free, fair system. Unintentionally of course. Evident by failure to delineate the exact scale, (elite) popularity and likelihood of said efforts. "Both siding" mass media, press, academic, tech, business and others efforts to enact progressive restrictions on speech.. with a handful of instantly blocked at every turn, conservative efforts to make social media actually comply with the nature of the protections they are given. Or comparing popularant-freedom leftist/prog ideological talking points, pushed throughout society, with the musings of a handful of fringe right-wing or conservative thinkers. And other such examples. The level of scale imbalance in most of these is ridiculous. The one time that you are willing to play "both sides" is the one case where you can't just ignore leftist and progressive positions and efforts. Funny how that works.
BREAKING: Fulton County, Pennsylvania Attorneys Sue Dominion Voting
By Brian Lupo
A major lawsuit has been filed by Fulton County, Pennsylvania against Dominion Voting Systems on Wednesday morning.
The lawsuit focuses around violations of their contract, certification issues, connectivity issues, and alleged foreign databases and scripts found on the systems. Some of the claims are on par with the “debunked” rumors associated with the “most secure election ever” claims, including internet connectivity, outdated security protections, remote accessibility, and random USBs inserted.
Much of the evidence disclosed is the result of an analysis and report issued by Erick Speckin, who The Gateway Pundit reported on Speckin’s research in another PA county earlier this week.
From the lawsuit:
46. On or after November 2020, Fulton County became aware of sever anomalies in the Dominion Voting Systems due to the inaccuracy and/or inability to reconcile voter data with votes actually cast and counted, i.e., tabulated, by the System in Fulton County
47. On or after November 2020, Fulton County became aware of certain factors and aspects of the Dominion Voting Systems that did not meet the “conditions” for certification set forth in the January 2019 / February 201 certification report
49. In addition, Fulton County was informed of additional anomalies and problems in Dominion’s “voting” systems via an expert report written by J. Alex Halderman in July 2021. (EXHIBIT C, the Halderman Declaration, September 21, 2021).
50. In his declaration, Halderman described numerous security
vulnerabilities in Dominion’s ICX software, including flaws that would allow attackers to install malicious software on the ICX, either with temporary or physical access (such as that of voters in polling places) or remotely from election management systems. EXHIBIT C
52. At the time of that report, the author described that these
vulnerabilities still existed, and could be mitigated, but that such mitigation would “take months for Dominion to assess the problems, develop responsive software updates, test them, obtain any necessary approvals from the EAC and state-level certification authorities, and distribute the new software….”
54. The report also notes that the ICX is set to be used in 2022 in at leastparts of 16 states, including Pennsylvania, with these vulnerabilities and faults still in place
57.
c. There were non-certified database tools installed on the Dominion
Voting System;
d. There were changes made to EMS three weeks before the 2020 election; and
e. There was a lack of commonwealth L&A inspections of the
Dominion Voting Systems.
66. …on September 15, 2022, a commissioned report revealed several deficiencies and the absence of information and data that directly implicated and contradicted the contractual terms, conditions, promises, and warranties provided to Fulton
County by Dominion in the Agreement and the conditions required for certification in the Dominion Certification Report.
Im reminded of the phrase "diversity is a strength". Sure it is, so long as everyone in said diverse team/society/company has common goals and values.
A team that is made up of fundamentalist christians, muslims, and new wave atheists (you know, the annoying ones that wont shut the fuck up about it) is likely not going to make for a good team running a business. Similarly, if those folks are split 50/50 between being free market capitalists and antifa marxists, that 'diversity' of thought is not going to be great for running a business.
Our country used to have a few cultural undercurrents that united us, but that is essentially gone. There is no longer a dominant religion (at least culturally) other than the new secular climate apocalypticism. Oh also that happens to be a religion that the govt, media, and hollywood actively shove down our throats in a way Christianity never was. And more importantly than that, I would argue liberty and a mindset of individualism was the most important value that represented America.
But on those grounds we cant move forward. This 'diversity' of thought we currently have manifest in half the country wanting less government and to be left alone, and the other half who BEGGED the govt for lockdowns, for mandating emergency untested meds be forced on us, and for indoctrinating kids with THEIR secular nihilistic religion. They are collectivist to the point of basically reinvesting in racial stereotypes in the name of identity politics. Their is no individual, you are actually whatever attributes that come from the collectivist groups you have decided to wear the jersey of. But also, some jerseys get you better status, and others get you shunned.
And these 2 factions essentially line up with the R's favoring market capitalism (although some cronyism is def happening with them) and the D's wanting all out socialism. Also dont forget the city dwellers want everyone to live like them and have restrictions that are specific to their chosen way of life (smaller living spaces, less or no usage of vehicles) placed on the suburban and rural people.
We are at the point where the 'diversity' of ideas has sorted people out into 2 camps at extreme odds. The fundamental principle separating the two are do you want society/govt having all the power/decisionmaking/responsibility or do you want individuals to? The difference in principles here is such that we cant move forward as a country
the experiment is over
Well, we had a good run. Do you see a way to peacefully divide the nation? History makes it pretty clear that this wouldn't go smoothly.
How do you propose the geographical split? Although the coastal states are blue, it is largely driven by populous blue cities. What happens to the conservative rural small town residents that live in blue states or the liberal large city dwellers that live in red states?
"People that cannot stand one another, should not be forced to live together."
The tension and conflict is intentional. The left will continue its push until there's another J6 event (and there will be). This will "justify" the totalitarian reaction by the leftists. They have become zealots, no other opinions are tolerated. This ends in genocide open civil war.
People that cannot stand one another, should not be forced to live together.
You mean like the way Putin and the Putineers are trying to force citizens of Ukraine to live under one roof with Putin's New Eurasian Empire, blessed by Patriarch Kyrill and God?
By the way, in case you missed it earlier, here's a Casey Kasem Long Distance Dedication for all of you Putineers and Dugin Hooligans out there!
It's sung by the hard-rockin' British band called Bad Company, so you know it's no Goddamn Dead Dog Dedication! Here for all you Ponderously Fucking Ponderous Putineers and Duginistas is the wonderful song:
"Silver, Blue, and Gold!"
https://youtu.be/HJV9UauZb5Y
"Give me Silver, Blue, and Gold!
The color of the sky, I'm told!
My Ra-a-a-inbow is overdue!". 🙂
And of course, the back story on Casey Kasem:
Casey Kasem Loses It Over A Death Dedication
https://youtu.be/ndUk6yX3PBo
Agreed. This is why I favor compulsory expatriation of committed leftists. They have no place in a constitutional republic. Which is what we are. Not some totalitarian dystopia that they aspire to.
This ends in genocide or open civil war.
Needs edit button.
The philosophy is fine, it's the ideology which sucks.
Plenty of nations have broken up peacefully. It really isn't that hard to do. The fact that the US had one bloody and failed attempt at a breakup doesn't change that.
We're already moving.
We don't need a divorce. What we need are city-states.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/election-2016-voting-precinct-maps.html
There's no way to neatly divide that up into two nations; I don't think you'd even want to try.
All 3 camps (red, blue, and concentration).
How do you know? Are you one of the camp guards?
"and new wave atheists (you know, the annoying ones that wont shut the fuck up about it)"
Hey, Ecog takes offense at this statement. 😉
"Plenty of nations have broken up peacefully."
Examples? I'm not a history major, but none come to mind.
Plenty of nations have broken up peacefully. It really isn't that hard to do. The fact that the US had one bloody and failed attempt at a breakup doesn't change that.
examples?
So everyone just moves to a new state/country? It's SO simple.
See: all the state AG’s filing suit against the feds for violating 1A by colluding with tech companies as a starting blueprint.
From a Google search...
https://redstatesecession.org/list-of-nations-that-seceded-peacefully/
Putin attacked Ukraine over oil, natural gas, and EU/NATO membership. This did not come out of the blue, he had drawn a line in the sand for two decades. Furthermore, large numbers of US and European experts warned exactly of this happening.
The idea that Putin is some madman driven by a desire to create a "New Eurasian Empire" is something pushed by neocons in order to cover up their foreign policy failures. Putin is driven by rational economic and military factors; any historical references he makes are the usual appeals to sentiment that all politicians make when selling their policies to the people, in Russia just like in the US.
The gullibility of people like you is just astounding. And it's people like you who are responsible for the suffering in Ukraine, because this war was entirely avoidable.
“You mean like the way Putin and the Putineers are trying to force citizens of Ukraine to live under one roof with Putin's New Eurasian Empire, blessed by Patriarch Kyrill and God?”
And what about the people in Donbas that do not want to be part of Ukraine?
I forget just why I taste, oh yeah I guess it makes me smile
I found it hard, It was hard to find...the will, whatever, nevermind
"Umbridge" would perhaps be a better word, JasonAZ. His words are too quaint for flat-out offense.
Jimbojr says:
A team that is made up of fundamentalist christians, muslims, and new wave atheists (you know, the annoying ones that wont shut the fuck up about it) is likely not going to make for a good team running a business. Similarly, if those folks are split 50/50 between being free market capitalists and antifa marxists, that 'diversity' of thought is not going to be great for running a business.
Why is it that Atheists have to "shut the fuck up about it" when Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims sure as fuck don't "shut the fuck up about it" and when Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims do all their talking with laws, guns, and bombs?
And, yes, my store runs fine as a business with people of many worldviews because almost everyone understands that they are there to transact business, get goods and services, and make a Buck, not quarrel over Metaphysics.
Occasionally, with no provocation on my part, some Bible-Thumper customer tries on the Gospel with me at my register and I'll just reply with a citation: "'My own mind is my own church.'--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason."
Most slink away after that, but one asked: "Was Thomas Paine a Christian man?"
I replied: "No, but rallied American troops during The Revolution, so that makes him a good man by me."
"Doin' good won't getcha into Heaven." He piffled.
"Fine by me," I conclude while giving his receipt. "Have a Good Day."
Probably the kindest, gentlest way imaginable that anyone could tell anyone else to "Fuck Off.". 🙂
He’ll be ok. He still has Jesse. Sarc has a man crush on Jesse.
Almost all of those examples are colonies or territories separating from mother nations. Some are called peaceful despite the fact that there were military conflicts (Belgium, albeit settled pretty quickly by a powerful neighbor, France; the USSR...really?...someone needs to update the website). The rest were previously separate nations joined by common monarchy, or forced together by the treaties or more powerful neighbor nations. All of them were separate geographic territories, not intermingled and very unlike the US situation.
Citing the Web Site:
Secession of Lot’s herdsmen from Abraham’s herdsmen
930 BC Ten tribes of Israel split from Judah. Judah survived much longer...
Noah from the world
Abraham from Ur
Lot from Sodom
Israel from Egypt to Canaan
Yeah, right!
None of that is corroborateable and the Noah story is the biggest laugh, since Noah's "secession" from the world allegedly required destroying the world (which JHVH-1 said was a mistake for him to create.)
And if Noah's story was true, a real Global Flood would have destroyed all life on Earth, including Noah, his family, and all the animals on the Ark.
There is so much that isn't correct here, but the biggest mistake here is that what Putin is doing is "rational."
What is "rational" about Putin pouring a big chunk of his military's treasure and the blood of now over 50,000 Russian boys' lives who didn't want to be there into Ukraine, a nation which never had a chance of being admitted into NATO or the EU?
Putin's equipment is broken and stripped bare for parts and ammo, the supply chain is destroyed, men are starving and either in retreat or they're like Spetznaz and the Neo-Nazi Wagner Mercs, fighting each other like wild-cats over "da cut of da mouse take."
And, yes, Putin is doing it for Empire and both he and Alexandr Dugin have clearly expressed those intentions. No Neo-Conservatism is required to see that.
And how are opponents of Putin like myself responsible for all this? Putin is a big-pants person who can do good or bad all by himself! This all could have been avoided by Putin staying the Hell out of Ukraine!
There will be time to break them off a tiny house later. Meanwhile, the whole mansion is getting torched by Putin's arsonists.
I'm doing just that
I'm sending Ukrainian Libertarians and Secularists some books on ballistics so they can make their own diversions and defenses and never have to be beholden to anyone for their freedom and security again. Not Putin, not NATO, not Zelenskyy, not the Azov Battalion, no one!
And since too many U.S. Citizens poo-poo science, maybe some Ukrainian kid will be first on the block to make Electromagnetic Rail Guns into more than two-shot self-destructing Derringers.
As does any good business. I not just shilling for my own employer here.
Let the cities govern themselves but have no say in the rest of the country. Even increasing state power doesn't quite take care of the issue of urban hives being completely out of step with the rest of the region
Yes. Let Seattle ruin Seattle all it wants, but stop it from ruining the rest of the state.
Yes. Because self-governing cities can be brought to their knees quickly once their logistics chains are cut -and once the heads of the dead are lobbed in from a distance. If there is going to be 'civil war,' dibs on Tamurlane's tactics. If the progressives think words and silence are violence, they won't last long.
Still pointing fingers eh?
Left and right are artificial constructs designed to divide the masses.
The farther one leans to one side, the closer they are to the other.
The real rulers in the shadows are neither.
The tree of Liberty......
"Why is it that Atheists have to "shut the fuck up about it" "
I say this as someone who used to identify as an Atheist but now just say 'agnostic' because every Atheist I have met is so insufferably annoying I would rather talk to a fundamentalist religious person than another one of them.
They are like the embodiment of the "Ahkkkshually..." meme
You usually get a choice which new nation you want to be part of; take your pick. Usually, you can also continue living as a non-citizen in the other new country if you like.
Look, there are enough examples of peaceful breakups in that list that it answers your question. If that doesn't satisfy you, well, that's your problem.
I didn't cite the list as an authoritative or exhaustive list, it just happens to contain a number of reasonable examples.
Next time, if you're historically illiterate and can't think of examples, do your own damned Google search.
Russia "is a gas station masquerading as a country", and Ukraine held the key to destroying much of Russia's fossil fuel revenue. It is also key to Russia because of the Black Sea ports and the pipelines. On top of that, Ukraine is in a militarily key position for Russia.
Western companies ended up having a strong interest in all of this because they saw huge business opportunities in Ukraine, and that's why they kept pushing for a tighter integration of Ukraine into the West.
Ukraine is being admitted into the EU right now. NATO was eager to expand to Ukraine, and if Ukraine would have become an essential energy supplier to Europe, would have had no choice but to expand to Ukraine.
Putin is an evil man, but he acted predictably and rationally. In the US and EU, it is unclear whether the neocons that created this situation were simply stupid or whether their objective was to actually create this conflict.
Because you keep spreading neocon propaganda and defend the people and policies that caused this war and suffering.
All you're proving again is that you're a fool.
You’ve reached parody level.
Damn, I was hoping you would go to the Ukraine and get fucking iced just like those dumbass Volunteers For Ukraine Redditors did. You strike me more as a Malcom Nance type, larpping in an Ukraine International Legion uniform with a fake gun with the mag improperly seated.
I disagree. None of those examples are peaceful separations of a nation, but I'll digress. At best, it's possible, but very unlikely for a nation to divide peacefully. There are no similar precedents. The closest precedent we have is the Civil War.
I grew up as the 6th generation on land in a rural, small, conservative town (Quicktown, go figure) in northeastern PA. My ancestors are buried there. In a national divorce I'd be way more comfortable in red state nation, but likely end up in a blue state nation. As stated, I either give up my family land or live as a noncitizen ruled by socialists. Or maybe I'd be like my GG grandfather and take up arms to keep the union together...despite my age...as many like me would choose to do.
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Dumbfuck’s arguing with bots again.
"the masses." Very telling. Very telling. When we lose sight of the unique individual we lose sight.
Yeah, and you're pointing four fingers of a right hand all at once.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Human history is consistent. People have to migrate for a better life once the place they live is overrun by people that have made it impossible to live in peace and prosperity.
Sorry PA may be one of those places. I live in Michigan. My family has also been here for multiple generations. My wife and I have had discussions about what the point will be when we have to leave. Although when shit gets real I have more faith in my state to find sanity than yours, but I’m keeping my mind open.
Awww, you poor, poor thing! How would you ever cope!
Yeah: if the world inconveniences you, you get violent. Thanks for revealing your true face.
They asked for their “tiny house” almost a decade ago and have been getting terrorized by no-shit Nazis backed by the Ukrainian government since.
Well, he IS a Nazi.
WTF?
What bizarreness! I'm one of the ones who cheer when security catches a shoplifter and is ready to "Avoid, Deny, Defend" on any signs of trouble coming to the store. During the first week of the George Floyd riots, our Manager told us to be ready with anything on hand, a broomstick, a chair, a brick, a soup can in a sock, anything to fight anyone who attacks the store.
Mind you, if destruction is how you get your raises, you'd do well to stay away.
"Google That Shit" is not an argument.
Also, a lot of the real examples weren't that good. Yes, 11 out of 13 States dropped from the Union, but they eventually got back together. And other than the four years where the question of taking the ball and leaving got answered with the loss of 600,000+ lives, they've all stayed together since.
Well, I don't think this separation is even a remote possibility, let alone a peaceful separation. But, if it happens maybe I'll see you in West Virginia.
To be clear, Atheism is lack of belief in a god or gods.
Agnosticism is the position that either something or everything is not simply unknown, but unknowable by a rational mind.
Although you can have both positions, Agnosticism is not a cover for Atheism, nor is Agnosticism a half-way position between Atheism and Theism.
(Parenthetically, how does an Agnostic know they are right about something or everything being unknowable without knowledge of the thing or things in question? 🙂 )
As for annoyance, there is nothing inherent to the position of Atheism that requires Atheists to be annoying. The ones I see every day sitting in grocery carts with smart devices learning from Cocomelon are quire adorable.
And if "Ackshuyally" people are right, I find nothing annoying about them either. They are my Huckleberry and can be anyone's too.
So is this annoyance all about Feelz? You know what they say about those? 😉
I am no different than U.S. Citizens who sent surplus guns to Britain in the period of World War II before Pearl Harbor drug the U.S. into the maelstrom. They weren't cowards. They were doing the right thing in a shrewd manner.
All you're doing is demonstrating your profound historical ignorance.
I'm not having an argument with you. Having an argument implies having respect for the other party. I'm simply informing you of some facts.
Or are you? You offer no sound arguments,just a personal attack.
I cope like anyone; by trying to work any situation to my advantage or for the best for those I care about. I'm not the one calling for a national divorce that would cause death and distress for millions. I'm not violent by nature, but yes, for the well being of my family, I'm willing to fight, like my gg grandfather and my grandfather did for me.
Yeah: if the world inconveniences you, you get violent. Thanks for revealing your true face.
Oh, and let's be clear here. What you're criticizing me for is for being willing to fight against socialism taking over in my hometown. Yeah. That's my true face.
Hey Encogitationer,
I like your ideas and style!
That’s what we’re called by those ruling from the shadows and those who want to be.
Here’s a well made documentary on the role media and governments play misinforming “the masses” with propaganda.
FYI the creator of modern propaganda was Sigmund Freud’s nephew. Together they reverse engineered psychosis to “control the masses”.
http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-war-you-dont-see
Miwek doesn't believe individuals exist, just interconnected cells of organic "races" or peoples, whose "Blood" determines their character and destiny.
A national divorce only would "cause death" because people like you get violent.
Take it from someone who actually immigrated to the US to get away from socialism: moving is far better than fighting.
Yes, you are willing to fight to deny people their right to self-determination, autonomy, and subsidiarity. You are willing to fight so that an all-powerful national government can rule the nation with an iron first.
You didn't say you were going to pick up arms against socialism, you said that you were going to pick up arms against a split-up of the US.
In other words, if you have to be miserable under socialism, you are going to make sure as many people as possible are going to suffer along with you. That makes you a rather rotten person.
Maybe Stalinism is "relevant". Without axioms i.e. natural law, there is no rationally supported morality. Maybe morality is not relevant. Maybe Maoism is relevant, ya think?
Thanks, Dave. Which Dave do you like in the world of music. Davey Jones of The Monkees? Dave Brubeck? Dave Grusin? Dave Matthews? Dave Grohl?
Either way, it's still true.
We got it now and it works great! 🙂
The No-Shit Nazis of both the Azov Battalion and the Wagner Group on Putin's side are both getting decimated. Maybe the last one of each will kill the other. 🙂