Don't Blame Ranked Choice Voting. Sarah Palin Was a Bad Candidate.
Blaming the ballot system ignores the fact that many Alaskans simply did not think the former governor really represented them.

In a stunning upset last week, Democrat Mary Peltola defeated former Republican Gov. Sarah Palin in a special election for Alaska's sole congressional district. The race garnered a lot of attention for its use of ranked choice voting. In 2020, Alaskans approved the new system, which allows voters to rank each candidate by preference. If no candidate wins an outright majority, then the lowest-performing candidate is eliminated and his or her voters' ballots are tallied again, with the second choices counted first instead. This repeats until a candidate passes 50 percent.
After the first ballot, Palin trailed Peltola 40–31, with Nick Begich III in third with 29 percent. After Begich was eliminated and his ballots were re-tallied, Peltola prevailed over Palin 51–49.
In the days after Palin's loss, prominent conservatives and Republicans criticized the new system for contributing to her defeat. After the results were announced, Sen. Tom Cotton (R–Ark.) tweeted, "Ranked-choice voting is a scam to rig elections." (Previously, he has referred to it as a "radical scheme.") Palin herself called the system an "experiment" that's "crazy, convoluted," and "confusing." In National Review, Jim Geraghty termed it "a legitimate electoral system…that doesn't make sense."
But it's not ranked choice voting's fault; Palin was simply a bad candidate.
Geraghty complained that ranked choice voting was "more complicated" than "the familiar 'first past the post' system," that "the Democrats came out the big winner, even though their candidate finished fourth in the first round of voting." This is true, though the third-place finalist, Al Gross, withdrew from the race after the June primary and encouraged his voters to support Peltola.
Cotton complained that even though "60% of Alaska voters voted for a Republican…a Democrat 'won.'" This is also true, though notably they did not all vote for the same Republican. Begich and Palin collectively accounted for 59.8 percent of the first-round vote, but only about half of Begich's voters chose Palin as their second choice; nearly 30 percent picked Peltola, while 21 percent did not choose a second or third choice.
Under a traditional primary system, Palin likely would have beaten Begich in a Republican primary and faced Peltola one-on-one. But Begich's voters would not necessarily have then turned out for Palin—in fact, they had the opportunity to do so on the ranked-choice ballot, and more than half chose not to. Far from being some radically convoluted "scheme," the most direct effect of ranked choice voting is to serve as an "instant runoff" by letting voters indicate which candidates they would prefer if their first or second choice didn't win.
Many of these complaints elide Palin's actual quality as a candidate. Many Alaskan Republicans were skeptical of her, as was reported by The Washington Post in April when she filed to run. Throughout the campaign, Palin criticized the ranked choice voting system, telling the crowd at last month's Conservative Political Action Conference in Texas, "It's bizarre, it's convoluted, it's confusing and it results in voter suppression…It results in a lack of voter enthusiasm because it's so weird." But as Geraghty noted, 85 percent of Alaskan voters polled by Alaskans for Better Elections found the new system either "somewhat simple" or "very simple."
Ranked choice voting is not a "scheme to rig our elections" by "out-of-state liberal billionaires," as Cotton has alleged. But as Geraghty correctly pointed out, it is also not a panacea for every issue in the current political duopoly. It is merely an alternative that gives voters more options than simply one Republican versus one Democrat. And as with any electoral system, a candidate still needs to convince voters to turn out for them.
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Ranked choice is a fail.
Why? Because in one election, it didn’t return a result you like?
Or is it because you, like Cotton and many of the other critics, are confused by the fact that Americans vote for candidates, not parties.
How about we still do not know what anybody’s second or third place choice was?
If this is a key component of the entire system….that info should be known.
If you are talking about the numbers, then they have been published. Even if they were not published, the math is simple to estimate how many of Begich voters chose Peltola as second chouce and how many chose Palin. Just take Peltola and Palin’s second round numbers and subtract their first round numbers.
If you want to know what individual voters second choices were, tough luck. We have a secret ballot.
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candidate. not candidates.
Palin can be a bad candidate *and* RCV *and* FPTP can be bad voting systems.
Nothing says “individual liberty” like a voting system designed to prevent individual voters from voting for people based on social, economic, and/or political affiliation.
RCV doesn’t prevent individual voters from casting votes for any reason, including those.
The current system of primaries to determine the final candidates, OTOH, does prevent voters from participating in state-funded elections because of their partisan affiliation.
RCV doesn’t prevent individual voters from casting votes for any reason, including those.
Yes it does. There were lots of Palin/Begich, or Republican ticket voters, whose votes got counted as simply “Palin”. Their Begich votes were literally and methodically ignored. You may think that’s a good thing but that’s a) because you aren’t them and b) a direct result of your (lack of) party affiliation.
The final vote had Peltola at 40%, Palin at 31% and Begich at 28.5%. In a run off someone would have gotten 50% plus 1 vote and Palin would have been in that run off and far exceeded 50%. Trying to say she’s a ‘bad’ candidate is something you’d expect someone at e.g. Reason to write. Even Jerry Brown vetoed this because of its tendency to elect people with less than 50% and the average voter has no way to know if their ranking will result in a 2nd round scenario they agree with i.e. NOT eliminate one candidate from consideration.
re: “and Palin would have … far exceeded 50%”
What is your evidence for that claim?
I ask because we have actual numbers showing that “only about half of Begich’s voters chose Palin as their second choice; nearly 30 percent picked Peltola, while 21 percent” abstained. In other words, Palin went from 31% to about 45%. That’s well below “far exceeded 50%” and there’s no obvious mechanism for her to have made up the difference without assuming blind-party-loyalty that simply doesn’t exist.
Suppose the Republicans had been switched, and the final vote had Peltola at 40%, Begich at 31% and Palin at 28.5%. I wonder how many Palin voters would have picked Peltola as their second choice? I’m guessing about none, and if Palin had been just a little worse of a candidate, that would be a Republican seat. Begich’s Republican seat, but still Republican.
That’s true, and I suspect Begich would have won. (I’m too lazy to verify it.) But it didn’t happen, and more than half of Begich’s voters refused to support Palin. She probably cost the Republicans a Senate seat. Now if she can just repeat her performance in November…
I’m an Alaskan and I voted for Begich and could not bring myself to vote for Palin or Peltola as my second choice. If there had been a libertarian on the ballot, I would have voted for them, just to support the movement, not expecting them to win. But, RCV denied me that opportunity.
So, I have mixed feelings about the RCV and definitely am against open primaries. I believe that as long as we have recognized parties, that they alone should choose their candidates.
RCV has nothing to do with Alaska’s blanket primary. You can have one without the other. Personally I think RCV precludes the need for any sort of primary.
How did RCV deny you the opportunity to vote however you wanted? In fact, if there were a Libertarian, you could have voted for them WITHOUT throwing your vote away.
RCV is most hated by the two parties, because unless they depolarize, it could be the end of them in two decades. Most people want the middle, and there aren’t many Douche-D’s or Dork-R’s in the middle.
Look at this snowflake crying about losing.
Ranked Choice voting was a total fail in Minneapolis. I always thought I was in favor of it, but it actually doesn’t work. We ended up with the imbecile Jacob Frey as mayor, no qualifications for mayor unless you consider being an ultra-marathon runner to be a qualification. All of my friends voted for him in second to fourth place because ‘he’s hot’ or ‘seems nice.’
Next thing we know we have a pandemic, George Floyd riots, and lo and behold the ultra-marathoner is not up to the challenge.
I think RCV should be chalked up to another of the pie in the sky ideas that sounds really nice in theory but doesn’t work in reality.
Muh butt-hurt.
Lol. Undermine voters, remove 1 person 1 vote. At least with runoff voters can reevaluate based on advanced candidates and everyone gets a second vote. Ranked voting is shit.
Lancaster knows this, but that’s not what he’s paid to write.
Disappointing, since Lancaster had a good start. Now he writes snarky tripe.
One man, three votes is clearly superior to one man, one vote.
This is exactly the problem. If it was 3 votes for everyone, that would be great – cast those votes as you want, but letting someone who chose a looser have another try effectively gives them a second vote, while those who voted for the higher counted candidates get only one vote.
But to the title of the article, my response is: Well, they can both be bad choices (RCV and Palin), can’t they?
Everyone has as many votes as there are candidates.
Nobody can vote for the same candidate more than once.
No candidate at any time in the RCV process gets to count more than one vote from any single person in their totals.
“ letting someone who chose a looser have another try effectively gives them a second vote”
Ban runoffs?
No, don’t ban runoffs, but allow everyone to vote again, for any candidate who remains in the race, even if it is the same one they voted for in phase one.
It will eliminate the need for a runoff in some elections. Which makes it easier for voters. The problem I have is why is making elections easier better? Lots of the Covid elections stuff was promoted as making it easier to vote. Since when is easier and more convenient a measure of a good election?
Exactly. I prefer runoffs. The trash are usually too lazy to vote the 2nd time around.
But… that’s literally how it works. If your first choice is eliminated only then does your second choice apply. Palin lost because a sufficient number of people who put Palin as their #1 didn’t put Begich as their #2. So either Palin voters aren’t smart enough to navigate a typical supermarket or their own Burn It All Down politics has hoist them by their own petard. Which is it?
Derp. “Begich lost because…” not “Palin lost because…”.
My kingdom for an edit button!
I agree with you about the need for an edit button. Still not sure what you’re trying to say, though. Begich lost regardless of what system you use. Is this what you were trying for?
Palin lost because a sufficient number of people who put Begich as their #1 didn’t put Palin as their #2. Therefore either Begich voters aren’t “smart enough to navigate a typical supermarket” or actual candidates matter more than party loyalties.
Because on a 2nd voting cycle where nominees advanced voter motivation matters. How many voters who put down a 2nd choice would actually go vote for them in a run off?
You’ve given them a simple and lazy second vote while some people only get a single vote. It is shit.
So your saying in a huge remote rural state like Alaska it is preferable to hold a new second election, then just have the voters 2nd choice cast during the 1st.
Someone is in the pocket of Big Bush Pilots.
What are you talking about? Bob and Sally are voting in an election for candidates A, B, and C. They can rank their choices 1, 2, and 3. Bob votes 1 for A, 2 for B, 3 for C. Sally votes 1 for B, 2 for A, and 3 for C. When votes are tallied, A has the lowest total so it is eliminated. Now Bob’s second choice, candidate B, gets a vote from Bob. Sally’s 1st preference, candidate B, is still in the running. How is this like Bob getting two votes while Sally gets only one? It’s exactly the same as if a runoff was immediately held and Sally cast her vote for B once again while Bob, without a candidate A to vote for, reluctantly votes for B. Or are you implying that, while Sally marked candidate B as her first choice and C as her last choice, if a runoff were held between B and C she should be able to swap her vote to C? Or that Sally should be able to withdraw her first choice selection and note vote at all in the runoff?
He doesn’t know. He’s just angry because the shitty MAGAt lost.
Oh fuck off you cunt.
You sound just like a Republican. Make it hard as hell to cast a vote so your preferred candidate can win.
A real fucking loser relies on making voting hard in order to win.
In a comment full of unhelpful diatribes, this may be the winner. Good job cheapening the discourse and making civil discussion less pleasant.
You’ve given them a simple and lazy second vote while some people only get a single vote. It is shit.
Wrong. Nobody got to vote for any of the candidates more than once. Even if you ranked every candidate, each only got one vote from you. And only when the candidate who got your top ranked vote gets eliminated does your vote for the second-favorite candidate count, and only if that person also gets eliminated does your third-place vote count, etc.
It’s not that tough a system to figure out.
>>But it’s not ranked choice voting’s fault; Palin was simply a bad candidate.
it *is* ranked choice voting’s fault and Palin was a bad candidate.
Yes, you are correct. I really don’t know what it is that NO ONE AT REASON.COM has performed their due diligence with respect to the mathematics of voting science. Tom Cotton CORRECTLY observed that voters were disenfranchised, pointing to “exhausted ballots”. As I point out in my youtube video, Paul Hager “Count Every Vote” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btDyhNiTfeM), it is actually MUCH WORSE. Votes are literally thrown away at every stage until the last two candidates remain. This is basic mathematics. I show that a normal 3-candidate runoff can cause the true winner, the candidate who would beat either of the of the other two in a simple head-to-head match-up, can easily lose. Instant Runoff, the PARTICULAR TYPE of ranked system currently being used in the US, produces the same result by disregarding more and more ranking information (i.e. VOTES) the more candidates there are. Throwing votes away is illegal.
The fact is, that without being able to do a recount of the votes using the Condorcet, head-to-head system, there is no way of telling who the winner might actually be. If a voting system ends up throwing out large numbers of votes, how can it ever be a good system? Of course, Instant Runoff is not.
There is another feature of IRV – it lends itself to strategic voting. Because of the discard feature, there is a nasty property technically known as non-monotonicity. I think the simplest description is to call it the “rank reversal paradox”. A candidate getting more first place votes can actually lose. Likewise, picking a 2nd or lower choice can cause your preferred choice to lose. Anyone who understands this feature should ALWAYS bullet vote: pick ONLY ONE CANDIDATE.
The IRV people lie about how the system works. They deny that votes are discarded by playing word games – they refer to lower ranked votes as “potential votes” to confuse people as to how things work.
A ranked ballot, in and of itself is not confusing. But IRV really is a scam and it is an illegal one that is fraudulently being promoted. I think there is a very good argument that the FairVote people should lose their 501c3 status because of their misrepresentations.
Lots of this is just not true. Please familiarize yourself with the RCV system of Alaska: https://www.elections.alaska.gov/RCV.php
Some of it is true though, isn’t it? Specifically:
“A candidate getting more first place votes can actually lose. Likewise, picking a 2nd or lower choice can cause your preferred choice to lose. ”
What is also true is that if the preferred candidate gains more than 50% of the vote right off the bat, s/he doesn’t lose. Less than 50%, then possibly the leading candidate may lose. This is how I understand the ‘very simple’ system.
The first part of your quote is true. Merely winning a plurality in the first round is no guarantee of being a winner in any election system that requires 50%+1 instead of a mere plurality.
The second part, however, is not true – at least not under the rules used by Alaska. If your first choice candidate is A, your second choice never even gets looked at until your first choice candidate as already been eliminated. There is no way that listing candidate B as your second choice (rather than abstaining in the second round) can bring A back into the race.
” There is no way that listing candidate B as your second choice (rather than abstaining in the second round) can bring A back into the race.”
The system is designed to eliminate the least popular candidate in each round, provided nobody has gained 50% of the vote. What possible purpose could be served by bringing back eliminated candidates into the race? Anyway I agree that making a second choice can’t cause your first choice to lose. In any case, a voter can indicate their first choice and leave the other choices blank, I assume, if they believe fully completing the ballot will hurt their preferred candidate’s chances.
How could picking a 2nd choice cause your 1st to lose in IRV? 2nd choice isn’t counted unless your 1st is already eliminated.
Votes aren’t discarded. Your understanding of RCV- or any IRV system- is mud-dumb stupid.
RCV would make it possible to vote other than for the “lesser of two evils,” and eliminating the partisan primary system would prevent elections from primarily being decided by the most motivated morons. It would disinventize the toxic brand of politics mostly preferred by MAGAts, too. Which is undoubtedly why most of them don’t want it.
Ranked choice voting combined with a jungle primary is a foolish way to run an election.
Also, this system was put in with the specific intent of protecting Murkowski after she had been successfully primaried. It is the bipartisan political establishment protecting itself.
Primary elections shouldn’t even be handled by a government-run election. The political parties should run their own, at their own expense.
Yeah, that’s my opinion as well. I don’t like RCV, but it’s defensible on its own terms, as is a jungle primary. Combining them seems to have brought out the worst in each.
Gotta concur it’s a crazy combination. If you’re going to have a jungle primary, why not do that by IRV and select the winner right there?
The problem is the jungle primary, not the ranked choice voting.
“But it’s not ranked choice voting’s fault; Palin was simply a bad candidate.”
From the get go. I can only hope her worse than useless political career is over.
She’s also up in the November election.
Begin must have been an awfully worse candidate. He ended up with ZERO votes.
RCV can end up the the candidate that no one voted for in first place. What a great system!!!
FFS some of you lot judge only by outcomes. The GOP candidate lost so RCV sucks.
Read some fucking literature on voting systems. I can recommend Willian Poundstone but there’s plenty of material out there. Of course, you could remain ignorant and continue to whinge.
Ranked choice voting is a solution to a nonproblem.
It’s not even a solution it’s just another option.
That’s where you’re wrong. It’s a solution to the problem of the establishment class getting primaried out of office.
FPTP/Plurality is an objectively horrible voting system with loads of negative electoral effects. There are vastly better alternatives available. RCV/STV is arguably the best we have in terms of balancing representativeness with simplicity.
An unproven assertion.
No, it’s well substantiated. You just haven’t cared to look into different voting methods.
Any system that gives us Trump vs Clinton should be taken out behind the woodshed and never spoken of again.
Yup.
I’ll respect someone’s position on RCV if it was on the record before they knew the results, and it remained the same after they knew the results.
But it’s not just Republicans that do it. The night before the 2020 election I was on another site and a bunch of Democrats were saying it was rigged: the Republican-controlled post office was going to delay their ballots, and there was an engineered shortage of drop-off boxes. 48 hours, without the slightest bit of shame, the same commenters were saying it was absolutely the cleanest election ever, a perfect model of fairness.
Disinformation.
2020 was the fairest and most honest election ever held in the entire universe.
The first period should have been a colon.
Many of those shrike is referencing gave been against RCV and even called it out when it almost turned a NYC vote to shit. It is a shit system. But SRG aka shrike like to strawman people instead of defending himself.
Fuck off, you lying peasant.
So, if it were Donald Trump v. Ron DeSantis v. Liz Cheney in a three-way race, you’d rather have the right-wing vote split between Trump and DeSantis so that Cheney takes home the nomination. Because “What would be your second choice?” is just too complicated a question for Republican primary voters to wrap their MAGA-hat wearing heads around.
“Because “What would be your second choice?” is just too complicated a question for Republican primary voters to wrap their MAGA-hat wearing heads around.”
that was my take, as well….. if “who is your second choice” is too complicated you probably should not be out in public without a helmet and possibly a leash.
…says the group who felt Gore lost because a ballot was just too darned complex…
Or who also believe getting photo ID is just too challenging, but only for darker-skinned folks.
“…says the group who felt Gore lost because a ballot was just too darned complex…”
this is the problem with dumb fuck partisan hacks……. you are too stupid to even comprehend that there CAN exist people who think you and those who thought that are both morons.
RCV sucks because it is a non-solution in search of a non-problem.
Yeah sure- the idea of having only 2 candidates to choose from (that you might, at most, get to vote for 1 of in the primary) is the best way.
What an ignorant comment, and that’s putting it lightly.
the duopoly lashing out to protect itself.
RCV is the best possible voting system IF AND ONLY IF the tally method is Condorcet’s Round Robin method. IRV does throw votes away and produces perverse outcomes.
My biggest concern is that the misrepresentations and confusion engendered by the IRV people will kill the legitimate reform of Condorcet’s Round Robin system.
I submit that anyone who actually studies voting systems will see that IRV is totally unacceptable.
FFS some of you lot judge only by outcomes. The GOP candidate lost so RCV sucks.
Yup. We might even call it “outcomes-based ideology”. One’s belief is determined by which tribe it most benefits. For the Republicans around here, since increasing voter turnout helps Democrats, then it’s time to talk about ways to make it more difficult to vote.
Bullshit. The Republican is always the better candidate. So whenever the Republican looses there must have been shenanigans, in this case ranked-choice-voting.
How’s Golden-boi working out? You guys got screwed!
Definitely one time I’m glad not to be in the Pine Tree State. But the good news is, if you can figure out how to clip the wings of the Taxachussets immigrants in Portland, maybe you can rescue the state.
How’s Golden-boi working out? You guys got screwed!
Not sure what you’re talking about. I stopped following local politics when I stopped voting.
Not like voting mattered anyway. As a matter of principle I voted against all bonds, and they all always pass. Any citizen initiatives I supported would fail. And the candidates I voted against would win.
By not voting I save myself much frustration and disappointment.
RCV is just another way of voting and like all system it is not perfect. What it does as the Alaska results show is to undermine the party system. Parties in safe districts and states don’t have to be responsive to their voters. But RCV makes the party pick less of a safe bet and that means working harder to win votes.
As for total numbers, the Republicans never complain when they loss the popular vote but win the electoral college. Parties never complain when they control state legislatures wining less overall votes than the opposition party. As I noted RCV is not perfect but then neither are the systems we use now.
How so? RCV gave Alaskans a life-long, dyed in the wool Democrat. Seems to me that RCV is doing perfectly fine in strengthening one party.
Even if it did “undermine the party system”, why is that a good thing?
All voting systems involve tradeoffs, the question is which tradeoffs are worse. And RCV is overall worse than simple votes.
Alaska should be a safe Republican seat, that the Republicans failed to capture the seat show that party strength is diluted. This is good because too often in this country parties exercise more power than they should, and the parties interest overrule the voter’s interest. Gerrymandering in particular strips voters of choice by rendering too many districts uncompetitive. Gerrymandering also forces candidates to the extreme rather than the middle.
I say get rid of gerrymandering or give the voter RCV.
That’s am idiotic, false binary choice.
So in your ideal world, candidates just appear out of thin air, with no vetting or contraints, and they give the voters what they want? I’m glad the US doesn’t function that way.
In fact, most of the problems the US is facing today are the result of just the approach to government you favor.
Not sure why there would be less vetting with RCV than with any other system. Candidates come out of the blue all the time and if they are right for the time they get elected.
There is less vetting the more you “undermine the party system”, a policy that you favor. And RCV then makes it possible for those candidates to get elected.
Why any of that is supposed to be a good thing is hard to understand, unless you take a progressive view of “democracy”.
If last week’s election had been conducted without RCV, Peltola would still have won.
If the goal is to engineer a voting system to produce a Palin win with those three candidates, you’d need to force voters to vote for generic party labels, and then after “Republican” won, tell them which Republican.
As some other commenters have pointed out, supposedly we are electing people to offices, not parties.
The primary system is all about fighting out what individual is going to represent the party.
All this did was split the vote amongst the party with the most ongoing debate and giving it to the candidate whose party is a far more cohesive voting block. Peltola isn’t a vote for an individual. It’s a vote for a party.
All voting systems involve tradeoffs, the question is which tradeoffs are worse.
See Arrow’s Theorem
And RCV is overall worse than simple votes.
Why? Do you think that a system that would elect a candidate with 40% of the votes rather than either of two other candidates who would get 60% of the votes is better than one that would favour either of the latter two?
Motivated reasoning here, it seems.
“either of two other candidates who would get 60% of the votes is better than one that would favour either of the latter two?”
But RCV only creates an illusion of that. RCV gives you zero information on how the vote would come out in a straight vote between those two candidates.
This. RCV removes voter motivation from 2nd rounds of voting.
Why should voters need to be motivated to vote twice when you get a reasonable answer by voting once?
The answer should be obvious, but JesseAz doesn’t want to say it: In his conception, the problem with democracy is too many voters voting for the wrong things.
The ultimate irony is that it is “unmotivated” Palin voters who couldn’t be bothered to tick “2” for Begich that cost Team Red the election. He’s mad that his team lost, and I suspect he’s smart enough to realize why, but it would require an admission to the self that it was his team’s own damn fault, and if there’s one only ironclad political principle to MAGA World it’s “it’s always someone else’s fault”.
Took you long enough.
You don’t even know how to ask the right questions, probably because your understanding of voting is so simplistic.
If by “here”, you mean “your location”, you certainly are correct.
As for me, I have been consistent in my opposition to RCV and WTA elections since long before Palin. In fact, I despise Palin, if not for any other reason than because she was McCain’s running mate.
Well you never mentioned Arrow’s Theorem, so we can only guess you’d heard of it before. I know I’d mentioned it in an earlier thread on RCV.
You don’t even know how to ask the right questions, probably because your understanding of voting is so simplistic.</i?
Translation: "I don't want to answer the question"
Non-RCV voting doesn’t “elect a candidate with 40% of the votes”. That’s why your question is wrong.
“And RCV is overall worse than simple [plurality] votes.”
Pretty much nobody who has studied voting methods in any depth and is aware of the mathematical criteria considered in their design, would agree with you. FPTP is the worst one in common use. Unless bone-headed simplicity for low-IQ participants is the only thing you care about, not election results reflecting actual voter preference.
The mathematical analysis of voting systems makes assumptions such as consistent, transitive preferences, as well as voters casting their votes according to their preferences. Those assumptions are fundamentally wrong.
It makes no such assumptions. They’re well aware of Arrow’s impossibility theorem, and it doesn’t render the FPTP system any less awful. So, because you don’t trust voters to understand and accurately express their preferences, you’d rather confine them to a system where they just vote against the candidate they hate/fear most.
Arrow’s theorem is a theorem about ranked preferences, therefore it assumes the existence of ranked preferences. It simply doesn’t apply in situations where preferences can’t be ranked.
To the contrary: I trust voters to understand their preferences. But their preferences cannot be ranked, meaning they do not form a complete or even partial order. That’s just a fact about human preferences.
Furthermore, elections are complex processes; they aren’t a simple choice among a bunch of alternatives. Politicians design their campaigns and strategies around the voting system. If there is a final runoff election, the top two candidates engage in one-on-one debates. Etc.
Instant runoff is the kind of system an autistic mathematician with no knowledge of human psychology favors, or people who want to play tricks on voters.
A multi-stage voting system with party nominations, primaries, elections, and top two runoffs would be the best choice in terms of informed decision making.
Even if it did “undermine the party system”, why is that a good thing?
Because people should not be afraid of ‘throwing their vote away’ on a third party candidate. They can send a message to the two major parties by putting a third party candidate as their first choice while still voting for the D or R as a second choice. Then, in the likely case of the third party candidate being eliminated, they still have a vote for the D or R.
While there is no perfect voting system, there is a best one: that is Condorcet’s. IRV is the worst possible ranked system.
I wonder if the fact that Palin decided not to serve out her term as governor, years ago, had any effect on her “popularity” in this race?
Reason never delves into any details regarding Palin’s unpopularity as a candidate. Since this involves unpopularity of a former VP candidate among her own party’s voters, one might think that would be an interesting area for exploration.
They never even bother to provide any evidence that she _is_ unpopular. Lancaster has written several articles making the claim, but he just links to a single tweet by a random blue checkmark on Twitter or to the Washington Post.
Palin is despised in the casually left leaning media circles Reason’s staff stew in. The premises of that clique are presumed as fact and rarely closely examined.
I’d say the result of the election is really good evidence that she is unpopular.
https://reason.com/2009/11/04/a-politically-charged-lightnin/
Yes, Palin was a lousy candidate. But as with all elections, people try to pick the lesser of two evils. Do you really want us to believe that the majority of Alaskans think a leftist candidate is the lesser of two evils?
Ranked choice voting is a lousy system that makes elections less transparent and harder to understand.
“Do you really want us to believe that the majority of Alaskans think a leftist candidate is the lesser of two evils?”
Reason probably doesn’t care what you believe. Nevertheless, it’s an actual fact: substantial numbers of Begich voters specifically put Peltola as their second choice. The sum of Peltola’s own votes plus Begich voters who thought she was the lesser of two evils, was in fact a majority.
Since it’s true you probably ought to consider believing it.
Really? You know that how? How does that compare to Begich voters not putting down any second vote? How do you know that that isn’t due to confusion about how RCV works?
Because Alaska voters are more intelligent and independent-minded than the typical Trumper, who, you’re right, probably can’t understand ordinal numbers.
How do I know that? Because it’s a published number. 15,445.
Oh, I get it….you think all the published numbers are part of the big steal just like the 2020 election. Everybody’s lying and really Sarah Palin had a huge majority.
Thanks, given that number, I could find a source.
Now, if you do the math, that means that 13000 Begich voters didn’t put down a second choice at all. That is more than twice the margin of victory between Peltola and Palin after RCV.
So the story that Peltola won because Begich voters preferred Peltola to Palin is wrong.
You should start looking at the data, instead of simply regurgitating progressive talking points.
Simpler explanations is that those “no second choice” voters is that they thought both Peltola and Palin were appallingly bad. I will admit that’s my opinion as well so there is some bias.
“You should start looking at the data”
We’re all three steps ahead of you. People have been discussing those no second choice voters (and the rest of the data) for days before you showed up here unaware that the numbers were even available.
That isn’t a “simpler explanation”, that is utterly delusional.
Which makes your lack of understanding even more appalling.
You’re a moron.
Again, people make assumptions without knowing what actually happened. I actually suspect that the “true majority winner” – this is the actual term is “social choice theory”. Note, “theory” is used the mathematical/scientific sense and is not a conjecture. This is mathematical, true everywhere in the universe for all time.
What we do know is that it took a look time to generate a result – the main reason is that all votes must be tally centrally thanks to discard. If votes are tallied at the precinct or district level, one is almost certain to get a completely different result. I demonstrate this in my video. I also show how the ranked reversal paradox.
Any voting system that produces ranked reversal should be rejected on that basis alone.
“Do you really want us to believe that the majority of Alaskans think a leftist candidate is the lesser of two evils?”
Yes, that seems to be what the voters expressed. A significant number of people wanted Begich, but if they couldn’t have him felt that Peltola was better than Palin. They obviously felt she was the lesser of two evils.
Are you saying that had this been a normal election, where Palin and Peltola had gone to a runoff in a few weeks, that suddenly all these Begich voters who picked Peltola in the RCV would have instead gone back to the polls and chosen Palin instead? Why would they do that, when we know they already have expressed that they prefer Peltola over Palin?
The problem isn’t those voters that opted for Peltola; it’s those that exhausted their ballot rather than make a secondary choice. There’s no way to know if this outcome comes to pass if a second round occurs in two weeks instead of instantaneously – enough of those Begich voters may have held their nose for Palin once they accepted that their candidate lost the initial election.
Though this might just be growing pains – as a consequence of Peltola’s win, I expect far fewer spoiled ballots from Begich supporters in November. But that it’s even necessary is a flaw of the system.
You are on the right track. However, it is not just that there are some “exhausted” ballots, which have none of the top tier (on the basis of first place votes) candidates, it is that candidates throughout the process are discarded. One of these may well have been the true majority winner.
Repeat after me: IRV throws legitimate votes away. A system that throws votes away cannot be legal because every legitimate vote MUST be counted.
“The problem isn’t those voters that opted for Peltola; it’s those that exhausted their ballot rather than make a secondary choice. ”
How is this a problem? Voters are perfectly within their rights to exhaust their ballot, and it’s assumed they do so with knowledge of the possible consequences. In any case some public education is probably necessary re the advantages and disadvantages of a complete vs. exhausted ballots. I remember Trump counseling his voters not to vote by mail. Not that kind of public education.
Yes, it’s a feature, not a problem.
And how do you actually know that that is responsible for the election outcome? Do you have access to the raw RCV data?
You imagine that people have a consistent set of preferences in their head and that they express them perfectly in their RCVs. That’s not the way people work. They might well have picked Palin over Peltola in a head-to-head choice even if they made a different choice in RCV. That’s one of the problems with RCV.
Overt also ignores voter motivation. How many people would go to vote for their 2nd choice?
What does that have to do with it?
At no time in the final election did Palin get more votes than Peltola. We know for a fact that more people had Peltola as their first choice. We know for a fact that more people had Peltola as their second choice.
For this “voter motivation” thing to mean anything, you need to explain why in a runoff election people who wanted Peltola as their second choice wouldn’t go to the polls, but people who had Palin as their second choice WOULD go to the runoff. How exactly does that work?
We are talking about the worst of all ranked systems: IRV.
Incidentally, IRV is such a nightmare that it means that there would never be a practical way of using it to replace the Electoral Vote system, if people desire that. Because all the votes ballots for the entire country would have to be collected at a central location for a tally, it could easily result in the amount of time required resulting in elections decided by Congress. At least with Condorcet’s Round Robin, tallies could be accomplished down to the precinct level and aggregated. It could even be easily done by hand.
I’m not in favor of eliminated the E.C. but for people who are, you must favor Condorcet.
Everyone has access to the numbers. Alaska Secretary of State.
Above I said 15,445 Begich voters put down Peltola as second choice, that was from a newspaper article written when it first came out. The current posting at the Alaska Secretary of State says 15,467.
All the numbers are there. You’re accusing others of being ignorant when it’s you that could look it up in maybe 10 minutes.
Great, I found it now.
Yes, and the numbers do not support the idea that Peltola represents voter preferences.
In fact, the number of Begich voters who didn’t put down a second choice is twice her margin of victory. This is a pretty stunning failure of RCV.
No failure except to the extent it was unintentional behavior. I’m sure there were a few who either didn’t understand RCV or didn’t want to understand.
But one would guess many of them were “Begich or nobody” voters and left it blank fully understanding what they were doing. They did not care which of the other two won. Nothing surprising about that. In a conventional runoff system, typically quite a few voters don’t show for the second round after their favorite is eliminated. And many, many eligible voters don’t show up at all because they find *all* the candidates unappealing.
How many Palin voters didn’t put down a second choice? If someone can’t stand two of the three candidates, why make them vote for one of them?
You would guess that, but that is utterly implausible and based on your partisan biases.
In any case, it is factually wrong to claim that it was the voters who put Begich first and Peltola second who handed Peltola the victory, since the margin of victory is smaller than the blank second votes.
Actually, not all the numbers are there.
It doesn’t tell us, for example, the second votes on people who voted for Palin or Peltola.
It only would take a subset of Begich voters with others putting no option 2. This is why MCV is shit. It gives some voters a 2nd vote but doesn’t require one. In a run off I guarantee and outcome would be different because it requires everyone motivated enough to vote.
Wait, I have to be reading this wrong. Are you arguing that a Begich voter WOULD get in a car and drive down to the polling place to vote for Palin, when they couldn’t even be bothered to put her name down when they were already voting the first time?
That doesn’t seem credible. It seems more likely to me that a person who voted for Begich and Begich only would not vote on the runoff if he wasn’t in it.
Exactly.
Well duh. Every losing candidate was a bad candidate.
Or you could say all candidates are bad candidates, because the desire for power should be disqualifying.
Or you could say all candidates are bad candidates, because the desire for power should be disqualifying.
Yep. And there lies the libertarian conundrum. How do you get people who have no desire to control others into positions of power?
Maybe those positions shouldn’t have so much power.
Bingo!
You don’t. You stand on the sidelines and snicker, and then pivot the conversation to food trucks.
*drugs and sex work
Mexicans, weed, and ass-sex.
Libertarians should understand the difference between power over government v power over governed.
“Well duh. Every losing candidate was a bad candidate.”
My first reaction to the headline was when has being a bad candidate prevented anyone from losing?
winning, rather. This rank choice stuff might be too much of an intellectual challenge for us.
Lessee if I got this right. She was so bad they had to change the election process to have a chance to make her lose? C’mon man, you know, the thing.
Sure, the electoral reform was all about her, don’tcha know. Despite Alaska voters themselves approving the RCV initiative two years before Mama Bear announced she was running for a Congressional seat.
Time… what a concept.
In the days after Palin’s loss, prominent conservatives and Republicans criticized the new system for contributing to her defeat. After the results were announced, Sen. Tom Cotton (R–Ark.) tweeted, “Ranked-choice voting is a scam to rig elections.” (Previously, he has referred to it as a “radical scheme.”) Palin herself called the system an “experiment” that’s “crazy, convoluted,” and “confusing.” In National Review, Jim Geraghty termed it “a legitimate electoral system…that doesn’t make sense.”
What I find interesting is how Al Gore’s loss was blamed by the most sober, mainstream media “experts” because the ballots were “confusing”, even though in a test, 6th graders understood the ballot.
But yet.
What I’m curious to see is what happens in a few months from now.
‘in fact, they had the opportunity to do so on the ranked-choice ballot, and more than half chose not to.’ and you “because the ballots were “confusing”,
That is what i was wondering; perhaps the ‘more than half’ weren’t fully aware of how to use the new system.
SP is a bad candidate.
As I pointed out above, the correct strategy with IRV is to ONLY rank one’s favorite. This is likely the reason that Australia forces voters to rank EVERY candidate, else the ballot is treated as spoiled.
Mr. Hager, none of second choices from Sarah Palin’s voters could have made any difference at all, because she came in second in first choice votes. In this case there was no possible “strategy” for her voters that could have made her the winner.
Now if all the OTHER candidates voters had put in no second choice, Palin would have won. But why would her opponent’s voters want to do that?
The problem is that 13000 Begich voters didn’t put in a second choice, more than twice Peltola’s margin of victory. This is very likely due to confusion about rank choice voting.
Fortunately, this time around, it doesn’t matter much. Let’s hope that next election, people will understand the system better.
RCV and IRV are still lousy systems.
The problem is that 13000 Begich voters didn’t put in a second choice, more than twice Peltola’s margin of victory. This is very likely due to confusion about rank choice voting.
“Palin would have won if it weren’t for all those stupid voters!”
It’s easily tested. How many Palin voters didn’t put down a second choice? If Begich voters were confused, her voters would have been too.
Here is the supposedly “detailed” report on the election from the Alaskan government. It doesn’t seem to contain that information.
It’s fascinating how Democrats view voters as enormously stupid. It’s part of the progressive credo. Clinton, Obama, and Biden all mocked voters. The only time Democrats ever think that voters make a smart choice is when voters vote for Democrats.
I couldn’t care less about Palin. But it is factually wrong to say that Peltola won “because of” Begich voters switching to her as their second vote.
Not to mention all the voters who, for 40+ yrs., have been too stupid to know where their local DMV is in order to attain any sort of ID required to vote.
Any introduction of a voting procedure (including but not limited to showing ID) favored by conservatives and we’re literally sidelining minorities from Democracy because as I’ve been told by white people on the left: minorities are too dumb to understand even the most tepid of voting procedure complications.
Then there was Alabama which required people to get a voter ID from local DMVs, then shut down or reduced hours for most of the DMVs in Democratic counties – though they reversed that after protest.
And there was Texas which intentionally decided on which were acceptable and invalid IDs based on which would preferentially be held by GOP or Dem voters.
What is almost always missed by all GOP supporters and even some independents that there are two steps at work. There is the basic question of whether voter ID and then there is the question of what is required to get acceptable ID. And it is the latter wherein problems arise. There is no “ID” that everyone has or can get easily, because as the Alabama and Texas instances show, the legislature can always impose an ID requirement that makes it much more difficult for one group to get the right ID than another.
As a matter of fact, how many people at each election vote using fake IDs?
As a matter of fact, how many people at each election vote using fake IDs?
I’d wager far fewer than those just forging signatures.
Isn’t the county clerk responsible for that? And in a D run county, wouldn’t that be a democrat?
I’ve long suspected democrats make elections hell in their areas on purpose to foment dissatisfaction, change processes to less secure ones, and create chaos. I have never waited more than 10 minutes in line to vote. I’ve voted in the morning, during the work day, and an hour before polls closing. But that seems to be normal in blue run counties.
I love how they just assume that the ones too stupid to figure out a ballot, or how to obtain valid ID, are voters for their team.
Always… ALWAYS.
I mean, say what you will about RCV, it DOES add “complication” to be procedure. The old system of: You want Hawaiian or Pepperoni Pizza
Is easy to understand. But when you change the system to:
You can choose from the following:
Hawaiian
Pepperoni
Cheese
Choose the order of preferred pizza. If your preferred pizza is not chosen, then a count of your second and third choices will be tallied and then a winner will be decided from the next-choice blah blah blah.
It’s not particularly difficult, but it does add a layer of complexity to the system. Yet not a single peep about disenfranchised minorities. It’s a puzzlement, to be sure.
Not only does it add complexity; it likely doesn’t add one nanosecond to the time spent deciding how one should vote.
Yet not a single peep about disenfranchised minorities.
Of course not. Team Blue won. That means the minorities were properly franchised or whatever. If either Team Red candidate had won, you better believe democrats would have been screeching from the rooftops about how the confusing RCV system has ruined voting forever and it’s totally unfair how Team Red has two candidates on the ballot, as if the ballot were a dartboard for mentally disabled
blackinuit people to throw darts at.If this actually makes people vote for a person and what that person stands for, rather than “Team Red or Team Blue” , then I’m all for it. It is perfectly reasonable to vote “anybody but Palin”.
“…It is perfectly reasonable to vote “anybody but Palin”.”
Certainly, but the 51%/49% numbers suggest that wasn’t the case.
The numbers appear to show that a significant number of people wanted anybody but Palin. Not all of them. But enough.
Again. No it doesn’t. You don’t know how many voters put no number 2. It wouldn’t have taken very many 2nd choice votes to offset the 2nd round of voting of significant numbers only put 1 candidate.
I believe there was an article previously that showed what percentage of voters didn’t choose a #2.
It’s reasonable to assume the Begich voters that picked Peltola as their second choice were thinking along the lines of “anybody but Palin”.
There were 15,445 such voters. Peltola’s final margin over Palin was 5,219.
“Anybody but Palin” voters decided this election.
How many votes were discarded? I’ll bet that no one here who is writing in favor of IRV has any idea. The discarded votes could easily have produced a completely different outcome had Condorcet’s method been used. Hell, even Borda’s ranked magnitude RCV system could have produced a different outcome and, frankly, it would have been better than IRV.
There were also more than 13000 Begich voters who put down no second choice. Peltola’s final margin over Palin was 5219.
What decided this election was Begich voters who didn’t put down a second choice. And the fact that they didn’t is a failure of RCV, since it is ridiculous to think that so many people didn’t have a preference.
Since Peltola was the only (D) on the ballot and her votes weren’t split, she wasn’t subject to that phenomenon.
Fortunately, this was basically a dry run. Hopefully, voters can be educated better by the next election.
“it is ridiculous to think that so many people didn’t have a preference.”
You do realize that a huge fraction of eligible voters don’t bother to vote at all, because the have no preference. A not-insignificant fraction of voters in a primary with runoff don’t show up for the runoff, precisely because they have no preference once the candidate they like was dropped.
You’re (obviously) a person deeply engaged with politics who has strong opinions. Most people aren’t. Most people aren’t going to go protest at the capitol regardless of whether abortion is banned completely or allowed at 35.5 weeks.
A large number of eligible voters don’t vote because the cost of voting is higher than the benefit, not because they don’t have a preference.
That is obviously not the case when people have already bothered going to the polls and the “cost of voting” is just making an additional mark. The vast majority of those missing 13000 votes are almost certainly due to people being reluctant to make multiple choices after a lifetime of being required to make a single choice.
I couldn’t care less about who wins in the Alaska elections and I haven’t voted in years. I’ve been consistent in saying that culture determines politics, not the other way around.
What I have strong opinions about is the idiotic view of society, democracy, and government people like you have, an idiotic view in which somehow one voting scheme is better than another. That is part of the massive cultural and societal failure in the US today.
There were also more than 13000 Begich voters who put down no second choice. Peltola’s final margin over Palin was 5219.
https://www.elections.alaska.gov/results/22SSPG/RcvDetailedReport.pdf
In the second round, there were 11,243 exhausted ballots and 47 overvotes discarded. So 11.290 ballots overall that did not go to either Peltola or Palin.
Of the remaining ballots of Begich voters, 27,053 went to Palin, and 15,467 went to Peltola. So, of the Begich voters who put down a second choice, 57.17% voted for Palin.
What data do you have to support your assertion that the primary reason the remaining 11,290 voters who did not pick a second choice in this election was due to confusion about how ranked choice voting works? Cite your sources, please.
Eliminating party primaries and then choosing the overall winner based upon ranked choice allows minority Democrats to win the election by coalescing the party behind one candidate if/when several strong Republicans run (against each other) in the same election.
Design criteria number one.
Same is true in reverse.
Dude, “both sides” is blasphemy around here. Things only go one way: against poor, sad Republicans.
Republicans are the helpless victims of the mean old Democrat deep state and mainstream media. Since they are the victims, any violent or asshole behavior they engage in is totally justified.
And they totally don’t need to work on coming up with appealing, adult-acting, civilized candidates or sensible governance proposals.
And they totally don’t need to work on coming up with appealing, adult-acting, civilized candidates or sensible governance proposals.
Neither team does that, which is why I don’t vote.
Please explain how this works.
If “several strong republicans” are run, then why wouldn’t one of them win? Voters will say “I like GOP 1 better than GOP 2, but GOP 2 is pretty strong too…so I’ll make him my second choice.”
RCV should actually help when multiple similar candidates run, because Vote Splitting doesn’t happen. We have seen in many standard elections where a third party bid from some guy splits (say) the Republican vote, letting the Democrat win. People regularly say Perot pulled a significant number of votes from Bush, leading him to lose vs Clinton. But in an RCV, Perot voters who put Bush as their second choice could have elected Bush again instead.
Every here is talking about the deeply flawed IRV system. Has IRV produced a robust multiparty system in the 100+ years it has been used in Australia. Actually IRV is the perfect choice for the duopoly. It will allow a few tiny parties to exist but never really challenge the majors. As a competitive major starts to appear, the chaos of ranked reversal begins to manifest.
Condorcet is the only ranked system that uses majority choice when there are three or more candidates in a single-seat election.
I will note that non-ranked approval voting (AV) is a decent alternative that could make it possible for legitimate alternative parties to evolve. I actually think that Condorcet with Approval is the ideal system but I think it is hard enough to get a valid ranked ballot accepted. We’re well on our way to having IRV completely discredit voting reform.
After taking a brief pass I can see why you’re stumping for Condorcet, but it seems too convoluted to be practical. How would you go about implementing such a regime?
Look at multi-party democracies. What do you usually get? You get Christian conservative party, a democratic socialist party, extreme left wing and right wing parties, a tiny libertarian party, and a smattering of ethnic parties. The programs the parties ran on get tossed in the trash when governing coalitions are formed.
What usually happens is that one of the extreme left wing or right wing parties has the deciding votes and gets disproportionate power. In many cases, that has been the prelude to fascist or socialist takeovers of entire countries.
That’s what you want for the US?
Thanks, but I’ll take the two-party system any day. It is far more stable, and it forces the extreme left and extreme right to negotiate coalitions within each party before each election, and the parties need to answer for their choices in the elections.
That, in my opinion (and I’ve commented on this extensively) seems less likely to happen.
I have argued (and continue to do so, but admit that this election might put that to the lie) is that if a political district leans red, then RCV will make it lean MORE red, same with blue. Pick your color. The logic I use is that if a dark horse red candidate runs against a mainstream red candidate, the voters can safely vote for the dark horse candidate without “spoiling” their mainstream RHINO vote. Same goes for blue areas. You can vote for the racist Bolshevik, but if that doesn’t work out, you can still choose your mainstream “first gay/trans/woman to run for office X”.
Essentially, it makes “risky” choices less risky.
I admit, however that it didn’t seem to happen that way in this particular election. The numbers seem to show that most voters wanted whatever-his-name-was-i’m-not-looking-it-up and then chose Peltola as their second choice. As Overt says, there were enough voters who wanted “anyone but Palin”.
Fair is fair, I say.
Bottom line, in traditional winner-take-all contests, having a spoiler candidate within the party no longer results in that spoiler candidate causing the loss for the mainstream candidate due to the “wasted vote” phenomenon.
FYI, I don’t support RCV because it seems that it will solidify party politics in various districts– which is probably why Democrats favor RCV.
“But it’s not ranked choice voting’s fault; Palin was simply a bad candidate.”
Claiming facts not in evidence, besides which, she lost 51%-49%, which suggests most AK’s saw her as a pretty good candidate.
49% is most?
Vote wise it was 91.2K to 86.0K or 47 to 45%. Also there were 11,000 votes for Begich, that did not rank anyone else so they got tossed into the garbage and didn’t count for anyone. So (and this is typical of RCV) you end up with someone with less than 50% of the vote being elected and thousands of votes are tossed into the garbage.
Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an argument that convinced me that anything is better about IRV other than that it is efficient and cost-saving, in the sense that they don’t have to schedule a runoff election.
YES! YES! YES!
Remember, this is Instant Runoff. Don’t call it “ranked choice voting” because that leads people to think that it is the only system that uses a ranked ballot. Start calling in what it is: Instant Runoff Voting.
Another Palin/Alaska article by Joe. This is starting to look like an obsession.
We flipped a seat blue, that’s the important thing here. There’s a rot in the GOP and must be stopped at all costs.
His bio indicates he’s from Georgia. Maybe Dog Dick GA?
Repost from another thread
35.5% of voters really like mangoes, are happy with pineapple, and hate bananas.
34.5% of voters really like bananas, are happy with pineapple, and hate mangoes.
30% of voters really like pineapple, but hate bananas and mangoes.
On FPTP mangoes win it. despite 64.5% of voters hating mangoes.
On a runoff between mangoes and bananas, the pineapple voters stay away, and mangoes still win it. As before, 64.5% of voters hate mangoes.
On RCV, pineapple wins, 30% of voters really liking them, 70% being happy with them, and no-one hates them.
Piss poor analogy
Shrike is terrible at them. Went to analogy school with jeff.
Fuck off you lying peasant.
Nope. It’s a perfectly reasonable hypothetical case.
Either you don’t understand that – always possible – or you do but wish ’tweren’t so.
When stupid people encounter things they don’t understand they tend to say those things and the people presenting them are stupid. They also have no grasp of irony.
It’s actually not a perfectly reasonable case. You’ve cherry-picked a case where one candidate is preferred by 100% of the voters which, outside Baghdad, Tehran, and Pyongyang (and not even in those places) doesn’t happen. Further, you’ve collapsed and/or obfuscated actual voting, or not, with vague ‘hated’ making any given conclusion other than 100% of voters supporting pineapple, unable to be reasoned. That is, if the first and third group demonstrate their hate for bananas by placing them last, and the middle group demonstrate their hatred of mangoes by not voting for them, then bananas shows up on 100% of the ballots, same as pineapple, and shows up on the top spot more than pineapple even though pineapple was ranked more highly by more people.
It’s a hypothetical which illustrates certain advantageous features of RCV over FPTP.
Now there are going to be a very few instances where RCV is worse than FPTP where there are three or more candidates (Arrow again) but they’re rare.
You don’t place bananas last in that 3-fruit race – because with only three fruits, you get only a second choice.
Now there are going to be a very few instances where RCV is worse than FPTP where there are three or more candidates (Arrow again) but they’re rare.
No they aren’t. This depends on the method of RCV. Some methods are more prone to confabulatory results than others. Thus the point about determinable/undeterminable systems below. And computationally/resource-wise, RCV will always be worse than FPTP and I don’t specifically or just mean CPU cycles to crunch the computations, I mean consuming hours of a wage worker’s time to understand the nuances among fields of candidates and deciphering the vote pattern that best represents their opinions and preferences. One might consider this to be a “Nobody needs 23 different kinds of deodorant” stance but, more pragmatically, it’s “No voter is owed the choice of 23 different candidates.”
On RCV, pineapple wins, 30% of voters really liking them, 70% being happy with them, and no-one hates them.
This is incorrect. There are RCV methods where pineapple wins, but the specific method of RCV as presented, pineapple loses:
Round 1: Neither Mangoes, Pineapples, nor Bananas attains a 50+1 majority.
Round 2 (and beyond): Pineapple, with the fewest top-ticket votes, gets eliminated.
Thank you for putting thought into your response, rather than being a snarky ass like me.
I just did a google search on “ranked choice voting calculator” and a bunch came up. Didn’t plug SRG’s scenario in.
Hey SRG! Pick one and plug in your info. Just to see. Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not. I’m too lazy.
Didn’t plug SRG’s scenario in.
I noted in my post above that one, that you *can’t* plug it into a vote calculator without clarification of what ‘hated’ means. If it means they left them off the ballot, you can arrive at a result, if it means anything else to virtually any amount of voters, you can’t ascertain the outcome on what SRG wrote. Either way, AK’s RCV sinks pineapple after the first round.
Of note, if you assume ‘hated’ means ‘100% did not vote for’ and name-swap fruits for actual candidates at the ranked proportions, the outcome of SRG’s hypothetical election is:
Peltola won despite Begich being the more highly-ranked candidate. And, if something more than 40% of Palin’s voters put Begich down as their second choice which, these votes went entirely uncounted, this actually turns out to be the case. Begich wasn’t the most popular No. 1 candidate, but he was the most widely popular.
Again, zero shits given about party or candidate. I stand by what I said above, Palin and RCV (this implementation) can both be terrible.
How would weighted counting affect RCV outcomes? Would the more widely preferred candidate succeed even if he wasn’t the preferred top pick?
It’s hard to figure out what happened in the reporting as everyone is latching on to Palin as if the election was all about her, but it looks like the one that got screwed is Begich.
How would weighted counting affect RCV outcomes? Would the more widely preferred candidate succeed even if he wasn’t the preferred top pick?
This is a bit orthogonal to the problem. IRV effectively makes it a single-elimination tournament. If you think about your Final Four bracket, 50% of the 3/4 teams never play 50% of the 1/2 teams. You could weight wins through the tournament so that the 3rd or 4th team winds up playing the 1 team and you could really find out who the best team is, but unless you go back through the tournament with everybody playing head to head, your weighting is still going to arbitrarily say some teams don’t get to compete “because ranks and weights and stuff”. The harder you try to re-write the rules to overcome IRV, the more you should just abandon IRV.
Yeah, I was thinking just drop the IRV and weight the choices. In a 3 choice system, first pick gets a value of 3, 2nd pick 2, 3rd pick 1.
I’m just wondering if the goal is to select the one most would be happy with and sort of moderate to the middle, then would this get Begich, who seemed to be that middle.
In the Pineapple analogy, with 30% only choosing pineapple and not ranking the other choices, pineapple wins with a 229 score and 100 voters. Mangos and Bananas are near perfect ties.
Out of 100. 36 voters for the first scenario, 35 for the 2nd, 29 for the 3rd.
True if pineapple is eliminated first round as in some versions of RCV. But using other RCV methods, pineapple stays in and wins on second round.
I was less than clear, I admit.
You weren’t less than clear, you were incorrect. The same way “But using other RCV methods, pineapple stays in and wins on second round.” is incorrect. *Some* other RCV methods keep pineapple in and it wins, but not all. Which is why the whole notion of “RCV is the bestest evah!” is completely bunk. There are implementations of RCV that are better at more accurately selecting the most popular candidate than FPTP. They are, however, nowhere near as simple, expedient, or necessarily as transparent as FPTP or popular voting.
Unfortunately, politicians are human beings, voting involves incomplete information and propaganda, and people’s preferences can’t be ranked like that.
It’s not so much that RCV is bad, it’s that people like you are so out of touch with reality that you think that your idiotic example amounts to an argument about voting.
Ranked choice voting was intended to produce different results than the old system and it did. I don’t remember anyone at Reason praising or condemning “jungle” primaries which also produces different results than the party primaries did.
There would be no point in changing the election system if it didn’t produce different results from the old system.
One thing the changes did demonstrate. Whether it’s the legacy system, jungle primaries or ranked choice voting, libertarians still suck at getting votes. The new systems have reduced libertarians to being less than insignificant. Breitbart was right: Politics is downstream from culture and culturally, libertarians don’t exist.
Cotton complained that even though “60% of Alaska voters voted for a Republican…a Democrat ‘won.’
Sounds like the PA Republican Senate primary…
‘Alaskan Republicans were skeptical of her, as was reported by The Washington Post.’ WaPo is my go to for news on subjects outside of DC concerning the political group they consider racist, sexist and backward. There’s no chance that the outlet would would publish biased pieces, or omit facts in order to push a narrative.
Ranked choice is not why she lost, but it is a lousy voting system. I cannot believe Alaskans were stupid enough to vote it in. I bet it gets repealed, it’s a conundrum and a failure. It’s a shell game.
The Republicans lost because Palin told her voters not to fill in any 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choice and Begich only mildly suggested that voters vote for Palin as their second choice. If these selfish fools do not tell their supporters to vote for the other as their second choice, and do not make an agreement to do just that, the Republicans will deserve to lose in November.
I don’t know if Palin was being smart or just stumbled onto the correct strategy. The CORRECT strategy to avoid non-monotonicity is to bullet vote. Read up on IRV and non-monotonicity and why bullet voting is optimal.
If all of Palin’s voters had bullet voted, the result would have been exactly the same. Not just who won, but the vote totals. Doesn’t seem very optimal to me.
Bottom line:
More people found Peltola acceptable enough to check her name, than found Palin acceptable enough.
Ranked voting is crap. It still makes it very hard for anyone other than a Democrat or Republican to get into the election. Far better to make it easier for 3rd for 4th party candidates. The 2 party status quo is protected by this gimmicky election system.
It makes it far easier for a 3rd or 4th party candidate than FPTP, though. Agreed?
That alone would be an excellent reason to reject RCV.
But it’s unclear that that is even true.
IRV is crap.
Condorcet is the gold standard.
Using the earlier example:
35.5% of voters really like mangoes, are happy with pineapple, and hate bananas.
34.5% of voters really like bananas, are happy with pineapple, and hate mangoes.
30% of voters really like pineapple, but hate bananas and mangoes.
Mangoes v bananas. Mangoes win 35.5 to 34.5
Bananas v. Pineapple: Pineapples win 64.5 to 35.5
Pineapple v Mangoes: Pineapples win 64.5 to 35.5
Pineapples are the Condorcet winner! Habemus papam!
Meanwhile the stick-in-the-mud posters here complain bitterly that mangoes should have won as they got more votes.
You, of course, mean:
Bananas v. Pineapple: Pineapples win 64.5 to
35.534.5Don’t worry, I won’t trifle you with the complexities of say, an Apples v. Kiwi v. Pineapple v. Mango v. Banana v. Watermelon election with write-ins (including NOTA), fully delineated and broken out by whether ‘hate’ actually means “Did not vote for” or “ranked lower than all other alternatives (including NOTA)”. You’re obviously challenged enough with the determinism of three-candidate RCV elections.
It’s not like any RCV elections ever come down to a 1-2% margin anyway.
RCV is anti-Republican governance.
None, I repeat, none of the states were ever intended to be pure democracies. Does mean that unpopular candidates end up winning? Yeah. And thank God too. Otherwise, why would anyone in a low population are vote?
RCV is anti-Republican governance.
Why?
Palin got 49% of the vote to Peltola’s 51%. At worst, Peltola was a slightly not-as-bad a candidate as Palin. And Palin was the top Republican, wasn’t she? Yes, a terrible candidate. /eyeroll
Again, let’s just see what happens when the actual real election takes place in exactly nine weeks from now.
You fake libertarian Block Yomommatards may nor be quite as happy after that as you are right now. Because I totally get why a lot of normal people wouldn’t feel like wasting their valuable time and gas money voting in a silly lame duck special election that’s going to be almost all campaigning anyway when know they just have to do it all over again two months later.
Oh the irony if this happened in CA where Jerry Brown vetoed this because it would lead to exactly this kind of result: No one with 50% gets elected and thousands of votes are not counted, i.e. in this case 11,000 voters listed Begich as 1st choice but didn’t rank anyone else – those votes don’t count towards the result even though a voter showed up to case a vote. The best one can do is speculate if there were a runoff, the 11,000 would have stayed home, AFTER hearing more campaign ads and debates between the two candidates left, that would occur in the run off.
So 11,000 wanted Begich or no-one. Presumably if he were not on the ballot on a FPTP poll, those voters wouldn’t vote at all.
Yup.
It’s surprising how much resistance there is here to believing that the voters intended to vote as they did. That their second choice was really their second choice, and if they left it blank they had no second choice.
I find it very believable that many people found Peltola to be too woke and Palin to have a personality defect much like Trump’s.
It’s surprising how much resistance there is here to believing that the voters intended to vote as they did.
It’s surprising here to see people acknowledge that the voting system throws out the 2-Begich votes, a fact that cannot be known up front, and then pretend to understand the voter’s understanding of casting a vote that they wouldn’t know meant anything, or even get counted, up front.
Because that’s a ridiculously implausible belief.
But, hey, we’ll see in the November election. Hopefully, this put the fear of God into Republicans and this b.s. won’t repeat itself.
You think it’s ‘ridiculously implausible’ to think that in an election wherein 192,289 total ballots were cast, 11,290 didn’t want to vote for anyone other than Begich? I find that ridiculously implausible.
You may not be aware that 3412 people intentionally turned in a blank ballot and so didn’t vote for anyone.
What is ridiculously implausible is that more than 1/3 of Begich voters preferred Peltola to Palin, which is what you are claiming.
That is a rather high percentage, also indicating that IRV was causing problems.
In any case, Republicans should take this as a warning and adjust their strategy accordingly for November.
And I also take this as another example of the idiotic kind of motivated reasoning we have seen come from Democrats about elections: when they win, it’s due to actual voter preferences, and when they lose, it’s due to nefarious Republican activities. The idea that voting in the US is just broken simply doesn’t occur to them.
Right, there’s no chance whatsoever that that many people voted on specific issues or candidate characteristics pother than party affiliation. Sure, 2/3rd of Begich voters kept pulling the red lever, but it probably should have been 179/180ths or else it’s the idea that ranking choices is just too confusing for the common mouth-breathing troglodyte voter, right? I mean, who in their lives has ever, EVER been presented with more than two choices at one time, and asked to rank them based on personal preference?
NEVER, THAT’S WHEN.
(insert giant facepalm image here)
And (theoretically speaking now, since we’ve conclusively established beyond all possible doubt that nobody has ever been in such a situation in human history) when might someone say “I like this one option, and don’t care about any of the rest”?
SUPER NEVER, THAT’S WHEN.
People say that all the time, that doesn’t mean that that’s their actual preference.
If you want to know what people actually want, you need to force them to make an actual choice. And in the context of elections, that means you need to have actual run-offs; instant-runoffs are not a substitute.
But understanding that would require actually understanding science, something “mouth-breathing troglodytes” like you are completely untouched by.
There is certainly a chance that most of the people who didn’t put down a second vote intended for Palin to win, it’s just a very tiny chance. It is far more plausible that most of them put down only one vote because this is the first RCV election.
See, there is stated preferences and revealed preferences. And revealed preferences are almost never based on ranking.
Yes, hit yourself harder: you’re obviously a “mouth-breathing troglodyte”, not to mention someone who desperately tries to defend a b.s. voting system for partisan reasons.
11000 (or 13000 if you do the math, I wonder what happened to the 2000 votes) didn’t have a second choice after Begich.
It is likely that many of them actually wanted Palin but were reluctant to put down votes for two candidates after a lifetime of such a thing invalidating the ballot.
Fortunately, this pointless election acted as a dry run for November and voters will know better by then.
It is likely that many of them actually wanted Palin but were reluctant to put down votes for two candidates after a lifetime of such a thing invalidating the ballot.
Assumes facts not in evidence. 3412 people intentionally turned in a blank ballot. I guess they were ‘reluctant’ to put down even a single vote due to RCV confusion, right?
And stating that Peltola’s win represents actual voter intent also assumes facts not in evidence. That’s the point: we simply don’t know.
Given that that’s an unusually large number of blank ballots, yes, that may well be due to voter confusion.
Good lord. Someone’s never heard of a protest vote, or tried to ensure against someone else voting under their name by going to the polls and intentionally turning in a blank ballot. I’m beginning to suspect that you find the process of cogent thought confusing.
Blank ballot are a mix of protest votes and voter error. You attribute most or all of those ballots to “protest votes”, which is, of course, nonsense. In fact, the unusually high number of blank ballots combined with the fact that this election used new voting procedures suggests that voter error was unusually high in the election.
But simple statistical analysis like this obviously is too difficult to grasp for a “mouth-breathing troglodyte” like you.
Of all 192,289 votes cast in the election, 11,290 voted to Begich and nobody else. That’s 5.82% of the total vote tally going for Begich and Begish alone. Not nearly as implausible as you want to make it appear.
28% of Begich’s votes were transferred to Peltola.
19% of Begich’s voters didn’t pick a second choice at all.
That means that a total of 47% of Begich’s votes were effectively votes for Peltola.
Nearly half of R voters deliberately supporting the D candidate is implausible.
It is also utterly ridiculous for you to claim that the very first use of RCV in the state somehow accurately reflects voter intent.
I don’t understand your pathological need to defend RCV.
And if Palin had won, the headline would be, “Maybe ranked choice voting doesn’t work after all.”
The con artists and fakers of Reason clearly already think that their beloved democratic party has permanently flipped another house seat, but what will they say if it turns out that they’re wrong and Palin ends up winning the real meaningful election in nine weeks?
Will they say “Whoopsy-daisy! Our bad, we were wrong and make ourselves look like complete and total fools yet again for like the one millionth time”, or instead will they just ignore it and not talk about it at all, which is what they usually do when it comes to shit they just plain old don’t want to talk about?
Personally, I’m betting on the latter if my prediction is right.
I don’t really care what kind of candidate she was. Ranked choice voting is terrible regardless. It is a violation of one man one vote. Reason can’t really defend rank choice voting. So, instead it says “but it resulted in the woman we hate losing”. Who gives a shit? That is entirely besides the point.
“One man one vote” isn’t in the constitution.
Closed primaries are also a violation. Do you object to them?
Begich comes from a family of Democrats. Was he really running to win or as a spoiler? Would be interesting to see his funding. Of course Palin would probably not gained his votes if he dropped out as the GOPe will support a democrat over an independent R.
Can anyone opposed to RCV provide a mathematical argument for the superiority of FPTP? Thanks.
Yes. FPTP is a subset of RCV that limits the number of undetermined/undeterminable outcomes. Various methods of RCV can be similarly limited but, not being limited to the same degree don’t guarantee the same degree of determinability.
This can be seen by pretty much every Pew and AP poll ever given.
So no, in other words.
I don’t think you understand what the words “mathematical” or “argument” mean.
You asked for a mathematical argument, I gave you a factual mathematical argument. “No” is not an argument against the facts.
FPTP is not a subset of RCV. (In the trivial case of only two candidates, I think all methods produce the same outcome.) So your assertion that it is is not a fact.
Yes it is. The trivial case is one candidate. But the specific degeneracy isn’t the issue. The manageability and resolvability of the ambiguity/degrees of freedom is the issue. You can appreciate that there are hundreds if not thousands of unique voting combinations for even relatively small numbers of candidates. Various RCV schemes will either incur the ambiguity, limit the will of the voters to express themselves or both, with single-candidate FPTP being the logistical end (of a gun FTW). Now, some limits may be imposed out of pragmatism, but that still doesn’t effectively eliminate the ambiguity in accordance with the will of the people and/or even the impetus to implement RCV.
Specifically, AK’s voting system allows for only 4 candidates and a write-in. If the TPD can (both sides!) field twice as many candidates (or more) as any other single party or even a group of them (not a problem for decades), the claims of favoring 3rd parties have been thwarted by the specific rule/implementation.
Correct. There is no mathematical argument to be made in favor of one or the other voting system, for two reasons. First, within the mathematical framework, all voting systems can fail. But more importantly, the assumptions under which voting systems have been mathematically analyzed simply don’t even approximately hold true for real world elections.
First, within the mathematical framework, all voting systems can fail. But more importantly, the assumptions under which voting systems have been mathematically analyzed simply don’t even approximately hold true for real world elections.
Neither of these is really a mathematical argument. Depending on what you mean by “failing”, a mathematical system failing doesn’t make it invalid or useless (Gödel). A system that fails more often across a random voter-space has very valid theoretical arguments against it that a system that fails less often does not. The second argument is a pragmatic one, not a mathematical one. Yes gerrymandering takes place, ballot boxes get hacked, and voters get confused by hanging chads, but none of those issues are mathematical in nature nor inherent to the vote counting/tabulation method.
I’m not aware of any publication analyzing voting systems based on “probability of error”. Furthermore, probability of error is often the wrong criterion, since cost matters too. For example, a system that produces a fascist dictatorship once every 100 votes is a lot worse than a system that chooses a slightly lower quality mainstream candidate half the time.
No, the second argument is not just pragmatic, it is scientific: the mathematical model does not fit the real world system you are applying it do.
“Sure, there are deviations from perfect flatness, like mountains, etc., but none of those issues are not mathematical in nature nor inherent to using a flat earth model to describe the world.”
The assumptions that go into theorems about voting systems are as fundamentally wrong; they contradict what we know about psychology and human behavior. Clinging to them is like clinging to a flat-earth view.
Wow. Just wow.
“Because math doesn’t predict and control all of human behavior or reality perfectly, I’m opposed to it’s use. Even in places where any 3rd grader or 14th century sailor can recognize its capabilities, I refute it. Psychology and sociology, that’s where the real science is done.” – Marx, Stalin, Lysenko, Fauci, NYOB2.
Mad.casual: you have a pet mathematical theory and you are going to apply it no matter what. It doesn’t matter to you that its assumptions are completely violated by the real world.
That’s Lysenkoism. It’s two weeks to flatten the curve. It’s Keynesianism. It’s Marxism. That’s the tradition you operate in.
Seriously, I was with you that “math doesn’t define morality”. But your post doesn’t say that. It clearly indicates that you’re worse than the flat earthers because they at least have morals to which they cling. You just want to pretend math doesn’t do what it does and reality doesn’t exist in order to justify the existence of bad morals and/or enforce a lack of morals.
Two fundamental facts about human decision making are that: (1) human preferences are not transitive, and (2) revealed preferences differ from stated preferences. Mathematical theories of voting that fail to account for these scientific facts are worthless.
It’s you who wants to pretend that reality doesn’t exist.
My objection isn’t so much to RCV, it is to the idiotic belief that this is a mathematical question in the first place.
BTW according to Poundstone, the American Mathematical Society, having looked into the matter of voting, decided that the optimal method was you could vote for as many candidates as you liked, one vote for each. Simpler than RCV. And it allows you both positive – just vote for one or two guys – and negative – vote for all bar one guy – voting.
I don’t know if Palin was being smart or just stumbled onto the correct strategy. The CORRECT strategy to avoid non-monotonicity is to bullet vote. Read up on IRV and non-monotonicity and why bullet voting is optimal.
A correct strategy is one that wins. She did not win.
This describes Approval Voting. I don’t know what this group actually may have said but I can tell you that this isn’t correct per Social Choice. Moreover, if you read Brams’ and Fishburn’s book APPROVAL VOTING (1st Ed. 1983, 2nd Ed, 2007), it is full of mathematics that demonstrate how well AV satisfies THE CONDORCET CRITERIA. AV is 2nd best. Back when I ran for the Indiana Libertarian Party nomination for SoS, Brams was an unofficial advisor of mine. I was pushing AV not because it was objectively best but because it was very easy to understand and, most importantly, it is could very cheaply implemented. A ranked ballot would have required a huge expenditure and there is no way a legislature would have every gone for that. Clearly in the intervening nearly 20 years, implementing a ranked ballot is no longer a big deal.
Bottom line is that AV is 2nd best, though as I said elsewhere, I like Condorcet with AV.
” it is full of mathematics that demonstrate how well AV satisfies”
That’s the problem. If you need to read a book full of mathematics to fully grasp its advantages, that’s a bridge to far. Asking more of the public than they are capable of giving. To explain the mechanics of ranked choice, on the other hand, a small piece of paper will suffice. It’s arguably cheaper and quicker to administer.
Typical Republican horseshit. Lose and then cry foul.
“Is it my shitty policies? Or overall lack of policies besides sucking Trump off?
No, it must be the system.”
I would be fine with RCV if your second and third votes could go to the person you wanted so in this case If i want Palin i would vote for her for all my choices 1st 2nd and 3rd but that is not what is happening.
so I wonder what happens if I don’t fill out my second and third choices. Ranked choice is sometimes how no one gets who they want.
RCV provides you a single vote that gets transferred to your second choice if your top pick is unpopular. It isn’t multiple votes distributed to multiple candidates. (There are systems like that, though.) The point is more to end up with the candidate that the fewest voters hate, not to give it to the candidate who is most often picked first while possibly being despised by everyone else.
Which was the point of my fruit example.
Oh, I thought it was supposed to make you look like a dumbass for saying the least popular first-round candidate would’ve won under RCV when, in reality and according to the rules, the least popular first-round candidate definitively loses.
Yes. Under the specific rules I was wrong. A minor adjustment is all that would be required.
Correct, because there is never any point in the RCV process where any individual person has more than one vote being counted in any tally or votes. Anyone who voted for Begich three times in this past election would have had their vote for Begich as their favorite candidate counted once, and then once he was eliminated their ballot would also have been eliminated since it contained no votes for any remaining candidates.
RCV proponents: RCV breaks up the TPD and forces people to vote for candidates and issues rather than parties.
Also, RCV proponents: RCV makes 3rd parties more likely to win.
I hear rumor that RCV can also be used to power *both* the bitcoin network *and* all of California’s EVs.
It makes third-party candidates more likely to win because voters aren’t afraid of their preferred candidate becoming a spoiler. It takes the emphasis off of parties because a candidate might actually want to appeal to voters of different parties to earn their second choice slot, which also cuts back on negative campaigning.
Better?
Better?
No. It doesn’t make 3rd party candidates more likely to win. It makes less popular candidates more likely to show up on the ballot regardless of party. It can’t obviate party and favor party at the same time.
Any correlation to campaigning is non-causal and/or inferential.
“It doesn’t make 3rd party candidates more likely to win. ”
More likely? That’s best judged on a case by case basis, isn’t it? Either way, third party candidates do have a chance to win under ranked choice if no one gains more than 50% in the first round. In first past the post, no chance.
“It makes less popular candidates more likely to show up on the ballot regardless of party.”
How is this a problem? Nobody is forcing you to vote for them. You are within your rights to ignore them completely, just as in a first past the post system.
It doesn’t make 3rd party candidates more likely to win.
Compared to FPTP it assuredly does, because FPTP makes it basically impossible for a 3rd party candidate to win.
You’re just throwing crap out there without any thought.
FPTP requires that this 3rd party is viewed more favourably than both of the main parties. Other systems, including RCV, can let a 3rd party in if it’s viewed more favourably than one of the two main parties. Which is more likely?
Compared to FPTP it assuredly does, because FPTP makes it basically impossible for a 3rd party candidate to win.
No it doesn’t. We had two Republicans and a Democrat. The primaries determine the parties.
You’re just throwing crap out there without any thought.
It’s crap according to your own rules. If you don’t like it, maybe you should come up with a better voting system.
FPTP requires that this 3rd party is viewed more favourably than both of the main parties.
So does AK’s implementation of RCV. If the third party is ever only going to get the least amount of first-round votes, they’re specifically a false or spoiler option. The argument might be made that if you get a multitude of 3rd party options and/or limit the number of candidates per party, you’re assertion is more likely to be correct, but AK’s version of RCV does the opposite by only allowing 4 candidates and multiples from the same party. So you end up with 4 (or 3 as the case may be) choices among the same two parties.
The only metric by which RCV succeeds or in this case specifically succeeded is in getting people to fill out more bubbles on their ballot.
“in getting people to fill out more bubbles on their ballot.”
To paraphrase Bernie Sanders: ‘Who needs more than one bubble?’
More bubbles means more opportunities for voters to fully express their preferences.
It doesn’t make anyone more or less likely to show up on a ballot. Ballot access has nothing to do with RCV as such.
“Any correlation to campaigning is non-causal and/or inferential”
What do you think economics is? Behaviors change when rules change.
“It makes third-party candidates more likely to win” – The New Number Two September.6.2022 at 4:05 pm
“It doesn’t make anyone more or less likely to show up on a ballot.” – The New Number Two September.6.2022 at 11:53 pm
So it makes candidates who are no more likely to show up on a ballot more likely to win?
What do you think economics is?
Not psychology.
Behaviors change when rules change.
Sometimes. Sometimes they change when the rules don’t change. Sometimes behaviors don’t change when the rules do. And sometimes, a Chief Minister of a Territory in Australia feels like he can shut down businesses and lock people in their homes, despite the death rate from COVID in the territory remaining unchanged (0) because he won an RCV-IRV election or feels he needs to.
So, you’re complaining that RCV doesn’t put a stop to unfair ballot access requirements, therefore it can’t help third-party candidates… who do make the ballot. That’s like complaining that imposing term limits won’t prevent bad politicians from being elected, so they’re useless. Not a serious objection. It’s whining that we shouldn’t need to seek multiple solutions to tackle a massive problem with many contributing factors.
Economics is a social science. It’s the study of behavior as it concerns the allocation of scarce resources.
Very good! Now, do you know the definitions of the words social and psychological?
Trying to divorce political or economic science from psychology is like trying to separate nuclear chemistry from physics. Do you have a point you’re trying to make, or are you just being contrarian?
I haven’t heard anybody talk about the *Palin* voters who listed a second choice.
This is a specific instance where RCV *doesn’t* get to the voters “true” desire.
What if Palin were eliminated from the race? Would Begich have won?
If Palin voters are “super hard core republicans” who really wanted Palin but HATED a Democrat winning, wouldn’t they have preferred Begich? Wouldn’t he be their second choice? But because there are SO many hard core republicans the Democrat won.
In this implementation of RCV that fails miserably.
An actual valid point in this thread.
There could certainly be an election where this happened. But I don’t think it happened here. AFAICT Sarah Palin was not encouraging her voters to put down Begich second, in fact, she might have encouraging them not to.
How would palin advertising this affect Begich voters and their ballots.
It’s not like Palin is talking privately to a closed club of her voters. Wouldn’t Begich’s voters hear this and do the same?
Specific real-world instantiation: 2009 Burlington Mayoral Election
The election unequivocally refutes every aspect of the blanket statements of RCV (and IRV specifically): The fringe, extreme progressive won and won despite being neither the plurality winner nor the head-to-head/Condorcet winner.
This entire comment section proves that RCV is neither simple to understand nor superior to FPTP.
http://alaskapolicyforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2020-10-APF-Ranked-Choice-Voting-Report.pdf
Because a bunch of butthurt Trumpers are mad that John McCain’s neocon sidekick lost and, therefore, ranking candidates in order of preference is too hard.
Jeez, it’s like Democrats complaining that voter ID laws are too difficult for black people to comply with.
Troll/10, but we’ve been complaining about RCV long before this election. If you read the link, you would know RCV has been used in some municipalities for over a decade. Many of our own states are now debating RCV.
I am not an Alaskan. I do not care who they elect. I care about whether or not my own state will adopt a system that disenfranchises voters.
Also I hope you realize the extreme irony in claiming that Trump loyalists have any loyalty to a McCain acolyte. You didn’t even try this time.
Anyone who legitimately believes that RCV disenfranchises voters is too stupid to vote.
That magic (R) next to her name heals all wounds.
Anyone who reads Reason magazine and doesn’t believe voting of any type doesn’t disenfranchise voters is too stupid to read.
Um, so you feel all voting disenfranchises… voters. Therefore, plurality voting is best.
Okay. Not sure where to go with that.
Um, so you feel all voting disenfranchises… voters.
I don’t, but several Reason Editors pretty openly and vociferously state that they don’t vote because voting doesn’t matter and/or grants government a false air of legitimacy. Varying methods of RCV make such false legitimacy more opaque.
Okay. Not sure where to go with that.
I think we’d all be better off if you went to a different set of forums and/or a different magazine.
But Reason is a commie rag, right? And Trump’s libertarian critics are all TDS-afflicted leftists, right? So maybe I belong here and you don’t…?
But Reason is a commie rag, right? And Trump’s libertarian critics are all TDS-afflicted leftists, right? So maybe I belong here and you don’t…?
Well, you certainly aren’t reading the articles.
So you support literacy tests and poll taxes as well? After all, only idiots get disenfranchised and failing either of these tests means you must be too stupid to participate. Only the geniuses get a say in our centrally planned economy tovarisch!
If you read the link, you would know RCV has been used in some municipalities for over a decade.
Australia has had a form of it in place in elections at all levels for decades. Notably, Australia also had one of the most disproportionately authoritarian COVID responses relative to COVID infections/harm of anywhere in the Western World.
And RCV is to blame for that? It’s a more democratic voting system. It allows voters more faithfully to express their preferences and kneecaps the largely fear-driven strategic voting that’s ubiquitous in American FPTP elections. RCV isn’t a constitution guaranteeing rights and protections.
And RCV is to blame for that?
Only if you falsely claim that it has magical, happy-joy, sunshine-rainbow powers. But, even then, the false claim is more your fault than RCV’s.
kneecaps the largely fear-driven strategic voting that’s ubiquitous in American FPTP elections.
JFC are you dumb. First, see above. Second, who says fear or hatred is an invalid reason to vote? You? How libertarian of you to insist people must like or just be indifferent to their political candidates and leaders.
Yes, poorly managed expectations concerning the Australian electoral system are my fault. I’m the dumb one.
Sure, it’s “unlibertarian” of me to think it’s better when candidates campaign on their own merits and reach out to other parties’ voters. We should prefer a system that encourages trying to make electoral opponents out to be Literal Hitlers. How “unlibertarian” of me to believe some systems and policies are more virtuous and socially benefitial than others. Just ignore that endless negative campaigning and habitual demonization of half the voting population produce low-trust societies, and low-trust societies engender statism.
Yes, poorly managed expectations concerning the Australian electoral system are my fault. I’m the dumb one.
Yes. When you say, dumb, untrue, oxymoronic shit like “It [RCV] allows voters more faithfully to express their preferences and kneecaps the largely fear-driven strategic voting that’s ubiquitous in American FPTP elections.” it makes you the dumb one.
We should prefer a system that encourages trying to make electoral opponents out to be Literal Hitlers.
You’re going to have to clarify. The leaders of the country locking people in camps over COVID would be the ‘Literal Hitlers’ and RCV would be their election-scheme, right?
Alaska had the best of both worlds. They had a ginormous primary with a bazillion candidates in June.
Then they had a ranked choice ballot in August with the top 4 candidates.
The embarrassing fact for Republicans is that only 1/2 of Begich voters chose Palin as 2nd.
1/4 preferred Peltola, and 1/4 didn’t care.
https://www.elections.alaska.gov/results/22SSPG/RcvDetailedReport.pdf
“only 1/2 of Begich voters chose Palin as 2nd. 1/4 preferred Peltola, and 1/4 didn’t care.”
Source? The result shows that voters voted this way, but indicates nothing about choice. No exit polling or surveying was done to determine if voters understood the implications of their selections or how the math of RCV would work.
If you’re taking that line:
How do we know how many of Palin’s first choice votes were confused? If we’re randomly guessing, let’s say 20% of them didn’t realize how bad she is. If only they had understood better they would not have tragically wasted their vote.
Do you see how offensive the “confused voter” argument is?
You’re projecting and/or confounding your personal feelings about the voting system and/or the candidates onto yourself or the voters. You admit to this issue above. 1-Palin/2-Begich voters would rightly be confused about what their ‘2-Begich’ vote means. It (IRV) essentially forces votes to make a literally unconscionable decision up front. They write down ‘2-Begich’ under the impression that they’re casting a second vote for Begich when, in reality, they aren’t, and no one can know that one way or the other up front. Moreover, that’s not an “I expressed my support for a loser.” unconscionable, that’s “My vote didn’t get counted.” unconscionable.
Why would anybody care whether the truth is “offensive” to you?
Move the reply button to the right side of the page like the rest of the internet
The voters are too stupid to be trusted to vote against us.
Every one claims RCV helps teh third party candidate. I’m 60 and voted every election there has never been a worthy 3rd party candidate. RCV is bullshit and always has been even before Palin lost. RCV is literally another method of hiding the true votes
If they were dumb enough to prefer a Democrat to a Republican, they deserve to be represented by a Democrat that the majority didn’t vote for.
I think it’s interesting that Mr. Lancaster is comfortable announcing that Sarah Palin ‘was a bad candidate’ without ever supporting that statement. In what way was she ‘bad’? Inadequate campaign? Inarticulate? Bad policies? What? There is a difference between being not chosen and being bad at . Mr. Lancaster often has valuable information but seems to have a blind spot for his own bias.
Don’t know what Lancaster had in mind, but I’d put it this way:
She had a large base, the largest of any candidate, but also the highest number of people who would not vote for her under any circumstances. Such a candidate can win, but only when it’s FPTP and there are three or more serious candidates. (If the jungle primary had been it, she’d have been elected.) It wasn’t FPTP so she didn’t win.
“In what way was she ‘bad’? ”
Losing? Coming in second place?
That’s a tautology and supplies nothing to the conversation.
“That’s a tautology”
Not necessarily under ranked choice. A second place finisher may emerge as the eventual winner under this system.
If she hadn’t lost, we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation.
It does nothing to explain the assertion she was a bad candidate. Duck salad had a better answer than this. Duh, bad candidates lose. But losing isn’t what makes them a bad candidate.
In trying to evaluate the appropriateness of a new voting system, the answer to what makes her a bad candidate should be more than “duh. She lost.”
I see your point. Perhaps because she split the Republican vote. A unified party under a better candidate could well have won. Democrats managed to master this elementary idea. Other than that, Palin is a goofy neocon. What more do you need?
Would
Maybe she was or wasn’t bad at campaigning, or had a lot of baggage. But the point of the complaint about the voting method is that she would have won in a 2-horse race. Do you really think all those who voted for the other GOPer would have stayed home or voted Democrat if she was their only choice? Really?
She would have won in a 2 horse race?
That’s the opposite of what we learned. She was one of the last two candidates and still lost.
What we learned in that a lot of republicans would rather vote democrat than vote for Palin.
Palin only wins the two horse race in a Republican primary.
As someone pointed out, Begich was the son of a Democratic congressman. Perhaps some of his voters were indeed Democrats.
Republicans couldn’t agree on one candidate.
They couldn’t even agree to pick each other as a second choice.
Lol at republicans.
They couldn’t even agree to pick each other as a second choice.
Unclear. The 1-Palin/2-Begich votes didn’t get counted for Begich. It’s entirely possible Begich was the most popular candidate rank-wise, just not the most popular after you toss out all his nth round votes (i.e. nobody’s first pick, but the majority’s second pick).
“just not the most popular after you toss out all his nth round votes (i.e. nobody’s first pick, but the majority’s second pick).”
Is there a voting system that allows for such a scenario? Is it a system you are advocating over ranked choice or first past the post? I imagine such a system would be more complicated than either of the other two.
Yes, there are several such systems. Yes, they are more complicated (sometimes much more complicated) than the “instant runoff” version of ranked choice that Alaska used. Compare, for example, Condorcet voting or some of the even more complicated options.
“Condorcet voting or some of the even more complicated options.”
It seems as though there is a trade off between complexity and achieving a result that reflects voters’ desires. I think places which have abandoned first past the post replace it with ranked choice, something like Alaska’s system. With time and experience, perhaps Alaska will move on to even more complex systems like Condorcet, which are more reflective of voter desire.
Simply weighting first, 2nd, and 3rd ranks as 3, 2, 1, respectively, gets you Begich.
It is simple, easy to tabulate, and direct. The first pick has to be very popular to overcome a popular middle pick.
Which is another reason why it favors third parties. One of the biases of RCV is that the voters of the first and second most popular candidates don’t have their votes transferred to their second choice. The voters who rank less popular candidates higher do. It’s a minor systemic flaw (paling in comparison to any of FPTP’s flaws), but one which will boost the second choices of voters who prefer third-party and independent candidates—essentially a diminished, opposite version of the spoiler effect.
“Under a traditional primary system, Palin likely would have beaten Begich in a Republican primary and faced Peltola one-on-one.”
Yes, and Begich supporters would then have the option of staying home or voting for Palin, Petolta, or some other third party guy in the general election. The only way Petolta could get votes from Begich voters is if they actually vote for her.
The delusion we’re being sold is that if the candidate is truly great, then supporters of his rivals would logically put them as second choices in rank choice voting. This is stupid. Not only is voting a popularity contest (and less a judge of character) but the chances of the best candidate is diluted in a competitive field with multiple candidates. If Abraham Lincoln was behind Jefferson Davis by one point and Karl Marx and Fidel Castro were close behind, he’d have to kotwow to some unsavory elements at different levels to secure his victory. It would be like Donald Trump trying to woo union guys with tariffs.
Let’s say the candidates running in a rank choice system are total slavery, slavery at state level, or no slavery. Should those who support no slavery write in some slavery as second choice? Because “well, at least some states will be free”? Certainly those who support total slavery will put state level slavery as second choice. “Well, some states will have slaves, which is better than no slavery.” Meanwhile those who REFUSE to compromise on slavery have no good secondary options, but if they don’t in choices the other guys might win.
Rank choice voting is a tragic mistake. What it accomplishes is giving uninformed voters multiple bites at the apple and give incentive for the establishment to indulge fringe third parties who should be ignored. It makes no logical sense. Imagine a first place caliber pie in a pie contest losing out because second place pie voters picked the worst pie as second choices. In your OWN lives would you use rank choice system to decide anything?
You don’t have to write in a second choice if you don’t want to.
I thought we hated the party duopoly around here. Why is making third parties viable a bad thing?
Sure, because having ordered preferences means they’re “uninformed voters,” while championing one candidate and hating the rest is a sign of a better informed voter. “In our OWN lives,” many private organizations do use some form of ranked choice to elect their officers. If you believe RCV gives a boost to fringe candidates, then tell it to the other detractors here who claim it doesn’t help third parties at all.
She never recovered from the gotcha question of “what newspapers do you read?” Has anyone ever been so wronged?
Sarah Palin hobbled the Republican party because of her stupidity. Trump is its demigod.
Republicans continue thinking sexism is a myth.
To be fair, the coastal media equated her homespun accent and outdoorsiness with ignorance and stupidity. She is stupid, but not because she hunts moose and talks like she’s from Wisconsin.
Oh dear, was the media unfair to a politician?
It chose the semi-literate guy with holes in his brain over competent statesmen because they a) sighed too much and b) windsurfed.
This just proves to me how unaccustomed you are to your candidates not getting a tongue bath from the media.
Carly Fiorina lasted five minutes in the primary. Whitman managed to hold on two minutes longer. Neither were great candidates, but every female candidate getting tossed that early was remarkable. Gosh, can’t have any business leaders as candidates, but some dude who went bankrupt four times is no problem.
I would have liked to have seen a President Ross Perot. With ranked or preferential ballots he might have had a fighting chance in 1992 to grab enough electoral collage votes for a 2nd count which he just might have won. Remember that Bill Clinton was well short of 50% that year.
> Sarah Palin Was a Bad Candidate
Eric Dondero hardest hit.
God, I haven’t heard or seen that name since 2008.
AK is actually a rather specific bad-scenario for RCV. In order for RCV to really offer an ROI on the promises asserted, you need a larger population for a relatively small number of candidates. Otherwise, you effectively cripple RCV back to being an inferior system. Specifically, AK had 22 candidates in the primary. To put them all on the ballot for a straight RCV vote and really get the absolute will of the people (setting how TBD aside for later), you’ve got 1.1×10^22 potential vote combinations. If you want a strictly determinable system (which FPTP/Popular is strictly determinable even if everyone runs) for AK, you have to limit the number of candidates to ~10. Which means you either impose it Imperially (like AK does at 4+1 write-in) or put it to the people via FPTP/Popular vote or some other more efficient voting method, which, the more it is applied (imperially or by vote), spoils the advantages of RCV. That being, I think even RCV proponents would recognize that RCV under the edict of “There shall only be 3 options.” is not really an improvement over Popular/FPTP, especially if you could have 5, or 10, or 20 on Popular/FPTP ballots and/or if you get from 22 to 3 for RCV ballots via Popular/FPTP to begin with.
That’s not to say RCV is always inferior, just there are numerous methods and applications where it’s wrong down to the precepts. That is, RCV may, in fact, be a better method of determining and imposing the will of the greater majorty populace, but The Constitution generally and the EC specifically are very much set up to thwart the will of the mob.
Here’s a line from an article, a footnote, actually, about monocity and voting, criticizing ranked choice voting:
“So precisely one of x Pi y and y Pi x holds for any distinct x,y∈A while x Pi x fails for all x∈A. Moreover, x Pi y and y Pi z implies x Pi z for all x,y,z∈A.”
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00355-020-01272-0
It’s unrealistic to expect the voter to understand that level of mathematical reasoning. With ranked choice all you need to be able to do is look at a group of numbers and decide the smalllest.
“But Begich’s voters would not necessarily have then turned out for Palin—in fact, they had the opportunity to do so on the ranked-choice ballot, and more than half chose not to.” This statement is false. The Begich vote went 11 to the victor and 18 to Palin.
“The Begich vote went 11 to the victor and 18 to Palin.”
18 wasn’t enough. A candidate needs more than 50% to win. Palin ended up with 49% of the vote. 11 was enough for Peltola who got 51% of the total after the 3rd place finisher was eliminated and his votes recast.