The Dubious and Doomed 'Assault Weapon' Ban That the House Approved Today May Cost Democrats This Fall
Recent polling suggests that Americans are starting to recognize that such laws make no sense.

The House of Representatives today approved H.R 1808, which would ban the production and sale of "assault weapons," including semi-automatic rifles with features such as pistol grips, folding or adjustable stocks, barrel shrouds, and threaded barrels. It also would ban a long list of specific models by name.
The bill, which passed the House by a vote of 217 to 213, has no chance in the evenly divided Senate, where support from at least 10 Republicans would be required to overcome a filibuster. House approval of H.R. 1808 is therefore a symbolic act aimed at energizing Democrats and encouraging them to vote in this fall's elections. But several House Democrats, whose objections nearly derailed today's vote, worried that it would hurt their party's candidates more than it would help them. In the end, five Democrats joined all but two Republicans in voting against the bill.
The fear that today's gesture could alienate more voters than it attracts seems rational given what happened after Congress approved similar legislation in 1994: Democrats lost control of the House and Senate. Polling data provide further reason to think that the House vote to revive the ban, which expired in 2004, could be politically perilous.
"There was uncertainty that an assault weapons ban has the votes in a chamber where Democrats have only a razor-thin four-member majority," The Washington Post noted on Wednesday. "Rep. Kurt Schrader (D-Ore.), who recently lost his primary bid to a liberal Democrat, has publicly said he would vote against the ban. Other front-line members representing rural districts also expressed hesitancy in backing it."
Schrader argued that approving H.R. 1808 would cost Democrats in November. "This is a bill that destroyed the Democrats in '94," he told Politico earlier this month. "Do we really have a death wish list as Democrats?"
Vic Fazio, a former chair of the House Democratic Caucus who represented two California districts from 1979 to 1999, agrees with Schrader's take on what happened in 1994. By folding the "assault weapon" ban into the 1994 crime bill, Fazio told The Daily Beast in 2019, "we put a lot of folks on the line…In really strong gun states, it was seen as poison."
In addition to Schrader, who was a firm no, at least three other House Democrats seemed to have doubts about H.R. 1808. Reps. Peter DeFazio (D–Ore.) and Mike Thompson (D–Calif.) declined to say whether they would vote for it. According to Politico, even Rep. Jim Cooper (D–Tenn.), who was listed as a cosponsor of the bill, said "he wanted to see the language," which did not bode well.
"Last time, we didn't necessarily define 'semi-automatic [assault weapon]' very well," Cooper told Politico. Nor does the new, supposedly improved version of the ban.
Like H.R. 1808, the 1994 ban covered a bunch of listed models, along with "copies" of them. Also like H.R. 1808, it included a more general definition of prohibited rifles, which hinged on the presence or absence of five features: a folding or telescoping stock, a pistol grip, a bayonet mount, a grenade launcher, or a "flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor." Any two of those transformed a legal rifle into a prohibited "assault weapon."
Under H.R. 1808, one prohibited feature is enough to make a semi-automatic rifle intolerable, and the list is somewhat different. The much-ridiculed reference to bayonet mounts is gone, for example, replaced by barrel shrouds. But the basic approach is the same. So if there was a problem with the 1994 definition of "assault weapons," there is also a problem with the 2022 definition.
The problem, as Joe Biden explained before he was elected president, was that gun manufacturers could comply with the 1994 law by "making minor modifications to their products" that left them "just as deadly." Removing the prohibited features did not affect the essential properties of semi-automatic rifles, which still fired the same ammunition at the same rate with the same muzzle velocity.
Biden nevertheless is proud of backing the 1994 ban, which he contradictorily (and implausibly) claims reduced mass-shooting deaths. He thinks fiddling with the language can correct the essential weakness of that law, which by his own account left many equally deadly firearms on the market. But that weakness is inherent in the puzzling distinctions drawn by this sort of law.
If anything, H.R. 1808 underlines the arbitrariness of those distinctions. It includes a 94-page list of firearms that are explicitly exempted from the ban. The Iver Johnson M1 carbine, for example, is allowed, provided it does not have a folding stock, a feature that has no impact on the gun's lethality. The Ruger Mini-14 Ranch rifle is likewise exempted, as long as it has a fixed stock and does not have a pistol grip. Yet the Ruger Mini-14 Tactical rifle (Model 5888), which is otherwise functionally identical, is prohibited.
For obvious reasons, Democrats did not want to talk about details like those, instead relying on misdirection and misstatements of fact to make the case for the bill. But after decades of legislation based on such dubious distinctions, Americans may be wising up. In a Quinnipiac University poll conducted in early June, just 50 percent of respondents favored "a nationwide ban on the sale of assault weapons," while 45 percent were opposed and 5 percent offered no opinion. As Fox News noted, that was "the lowest level of support since February 2013," when Quinnipiac first posed the question. The results are especially notable because the survey was completed just two weeks after the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas.
Gallup first asked Americans about "assault weapon" bans in 1989. The question was worded this way: "Would you favor or oppose federal legislation banning the manufacture, sale and possession of semi-automatic assault guns, such as the AK-47?" Seventy-two percent of respondents said they would support such a law. But since the original AK-47 was a military rifle that could fire continuously with one trigger pull, rather than a semi-automatic rifle that fires once per trigger pull, that result may have been biased upward by a misleading question.
In 1996, two years after Congress approved the now-expired ban, Gallup asked a different question: "Would you vote for or against a law which would make it illegal to manufacture, sell or possess semi-automatic guns known as assault rifles?" In response to that question, which still left the definition of "assault rifles" unclear, 57 percent of the participants said they supported such a law. Gallup used the same wording in 2000, when support for a ban was slightly higher: 59 percent.
In 2004, the year that the 1994 ban expired, Gallup asked, "Are you for or against a law which would make it illegal to manufacture, sell or possess semi-automatic guns known as assault rifles?" Just 50 percent of respondents favored a ban, the same level of support that Quinnipiac found last month. In polls conducted from 2011 through 2018, that figure ranged from 36 percent to 48 percent.
Two Gallup polls conducted in 2013 asked yet another question: "Would you vote for or against a law that would…reinstate and strengthen the ban on assault weapons that was in place from 1994 to 2004?" A majority—56 percent in one poll and 60 percent in the other—was in favor of that proposition.
Gallup's most recent poll on the issue, conducted last month, phrased the question this way: "Do you think there should or should not be a ban on the manufacture, possession and sale of semi-automatic guns known as assault rifles?" Fifty-five percent of respondents said there should be such a ban.
It is hard to know what to make of these results, especially given the variations in wording. The references to banning possession of the targeted rifles may have been misleading, since the 1994 ban did not apply to firearms that Americans already owned. H.R. 1808 includes a similar grandfather clause. Crucially, none of these questions clarified what "assault weapons" are, and it is likely that many respondents were unfamiliar with how legislators have defined the term.
As the Associated Press Stylebook notes, the assault adjective "convey[s] little meaning about the actual functions of the weapon." The A.P. recently reminded reporters that they should avoid the term assault weapon, which is "highly politicized."
Still, it's clear that bans on "assault weapons," whatever poll participants think those might be, are far less popular than other gun control policies that Democratic politicians favor. In last month's Gallup poll, for example, 92 percent of respondents favored "requiring background checks for all gun sales," and more than 80 percent favored "red flag" laws, which authorize court orders prohibiting possession of guns by people who are deemed a threat to themselves or others.
Even such seemingly massive support does not necessarily tell us how people will vote when they have a chance to actually enact such policies through ballot initiatives. As The New York Times noted last month, the gap between "expected support" for "universal background checks" (based on polling) and "actual support" (based on election results) was 28 points in California, 22 points in Washington, 36 points in Nevada, and 35 points in Maine. Those gaps may reflect the difference between answering a survey question about a gun policy in the abstract and casting a vote for a specific measure after a campaign in which the pros and cons have been debated.
If Democrats can't count on people who express support for a particular gun policy to vote accordingly on that very issue, it seems even more doubtful that people who say they favor more gun control will reward politicians for agreeing with them in elections that involve many other issues. The relevant question is not what people say in surveys but how strongly they feel about it and how likely it is to affect their voting.
On that score, research suggests that Democrats could be at a disadvantage. In a CNN/SSRS poll conducted earlier this year, for example, 41 percent of registered voters said "gun policy" was "extremely important" in deciding which congressional candidate to support. Republican-leaning voters were more likely to say that than Democratic-leaning voters (45 percent vs. 40 percent).
In 2013, after Colorado voters recalled two Democratic state legislators in campaigns driven by their support for gun control, the Pew Research Center noted that "intensity of feeling" can play a crucial role in election outcomes. The center's polling found that "41% of people who prioritize gun rights said they wouldn't vote for a candidate with whom they disagreed on gun policy, even if they agreed with the candidate on most other issues." By comparison, "only 31% of gun-control supporters said gun policy was a make-or-break voting issue for them."
Another 2013 Pew report elaborated on that point. "There is a substantial gap between those who prioritize gun rights and gun control when it comes to political involvement," it said. That gap was reflected in "donations to activist organizations" as well as voting intentions. "Nearly half of conservative Republicans (47%) say they would not vote for a candidate who agreed with them on most issues, but disagreed with them on gun policy," Pew reported, while "37% of liberal Democrats" said the same thing.
The Democrats who pushed today's vote figured it would make them look good to voters while making Republicans look bad. But if people who oppose an "assault weapon" ban are more inclined to vote on that basis than people who support it, re-upping this policy a few months before congressional elections could turn out to be a big mistake.
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Republicans did a good job opposing, except for two RINOS. I will vote Republican this November.
The 2 RINO votes means it is bipartisan.
As Americans are being educated on the supposed meaning of "assault rifle", their support of 'assault' weapons bans is diminishing. They are starting to understand that it's just another sporting rifle that looks a little different.
No, no, no, no.
Since words and ideas are violence, just a photo (or mention) of an AR-15 is a deadly assault on people with righteous sensitivity. And woke ethics tell us that persons with higher sensitivity, i.e. lower emotional and intellectual resilience, have the right to live without fearful sadness.
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"persons with higher sensitivity, i.e. lower emotional and intellectual resilience, have the right to live without fearful sadness."
Perfect encapsulation of current democrat politics
From Covid, to trannies, to abortion. More grounded, rational people need to play into their delusion and coddle them such that they never have to face reality or consequences and can shirk every ounce of personal responsibility. The govt will take care of all said responsibility.
They should just define "assault weapon" as any firearm that will rip the lungs right out of the body and turn it into a pink mist.
“Assault weapon” is a phony term made up by gun control nuts.
"Phony term" is a phony term made up by anti-gun-control oysters. AR15s are literally Hitler.
AK-15s, please update your terminology.
Ummm, there actually is an AK-15.
I just want to know which one has the grenade launchers and chainsaw attachments. Are those still legal?
Yes but if you add a toothpick and tweezers it becomes a Swiss army assault rifle and that is illegal
Didn’t the Galil have a bottle opener?
And a shark with laser eyes. Can't forget the shark.
I guess it's time for this, yet again ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhNkIsP59pM&ab_channel=NuMetal2001
If deer don't explode, it's not an assault rifle.
Just this week one senator said it would cut a humans head right off.
Which is inACCURATE, because it nukes it off their necks. In fact, accuracy is optional with this kind of hyper-weapon.
And YOU don't even have to pull the trigger: It does that for you! The amazing, self-firing, never miss a human gun! Available now for kids and lunatics at $3.99, just click this link:
imasuckerfordpropaganda.com
As used in 'ospitals.. (non python version)
Everyone knows the .44 magnum, the most powerful handgun in existence, will blow your head clean off.
So, do you feel lucky, punk?
Shotgun.
Are you claiming the front seat, or asking me to drink?
Yo, man. That made me chuckle. Funny.
Already got one, Somnolent Joe told me to (Haven't fired it out the window yet)
Democrats may or may not succeed in honoring the wishes of longtime libertarian activist Michael Hihn by banning assault weapons. However #BlueWave2022 is guaranteed anyway. Let's review the Biden Administration's accomplishments:
1. Delivered the vaccine and shut down the virus.
2. Put a soft-on-crime Black woman on the Supreme Court.
3. Liberated and dismantled Orange Hitler's concentration camps.
4. Spent tens of billions on Ukraine to ensure the Russian Army will collapse any day now.
5. Ended the #DrumpfDepression and started the #BidenBoom.
6. Captivated the nation with the 1 / 6 hearings and proved Drumpf masterminded the HEAVILY ARMED INSURRECTION.
TBH the trickiest thing for Democrats will be keeping their TV ads under 5 minutes, since they have so much to brag about. 🙂
#LibertariansForBiden
I love you?
The best
On top of the #BlueWave2022, I am very much looking foreskin to the #BrownWave2022, #BrownWave2023 and the #BrownInflux20XX. ♥♥♥♥♥
I celebrate this motion excessively, as we are finally getting rid of those iffy assault weapons, which are mainly used by white colonizers to #KeepDownTheBrown. Especially as this bill doesn't have a grandfather clause (really really), which means that the white supremacist community and other armed grandfathers will be hardest hit. Yes, indeed, as was also observed in 1994, their guns will just start to dematerialize in awe of the new legislation.
Please get an internship ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
#LibertariansForBiden
#CommunistsForJohnBirchSociety
As a Democrat in Libertarian drag and a dragon working for the fire department, AAAND as someone insanely concerned about your, uhm, safety and stuff, HR1808 has my most ferocious level of support. Why?
1) The Pink People Of Ukraine™, particularly civilians, weren't helped by the black guns they were given by their government. Otherwise they would have won the war long ago. So AR15s are really not needed by everyone. That's clear to any Democrat.
2) Reasons leading Democratic intellectual and military analyst Joe Friday has assured us that AR15 are just too powerful to be in civilian hands because they are literal nukes.
3) As you can see from the synergetic logic between points 1) and 2), AR15 have no reason to exist anywhere privately or in civilian hands, because they are both too powerful and too weak to be used in any meaningful way.
4) Schrödinger's Stabilizing Braces™, which are able to stabilize a weapon and, at the same time, make it more loose like bump stocks, to achieve so called semi-fully-automatic firestorms, is a weapon of mass destruction, because, again, according to Joe Friday, a gun in 5.56 is a literal nuke. This should, of course, never be owned by any public citizen.
Therefore, I am quite happy that we have finally managed to remove these menaces off our streets.
#BlackGunsDONTMatter
#OwnersOfBlackGunsMatterEvenLess
#BlackGunOwnersMatterIfTheyVoteBlue
#ColorblindnessIsVeryConvenient
Libertarians for Biden? Is that like Christians for Satan?
In the end, five Democrats joined all but two Republicans in voting against the bill.
So . . . bipartisan consensus?
TRANS-partisan consensus, my friend. As can be seen in the article on how will reason staffers vote in 2020 (https://reason.com/2020/10/12/how-will-reason-staffers-vote-in-2020/), Libertarians are behind this as well.
#VoteBlueOrYouAintBlack
Nothing says vote for my party like pissing on the constitution.
Golden Showers are a common occurrence in congress. Two Republican Senators received showers of gold in black suitcases today for blueing up their votes.
Now that I'm thinking about it, they probably even received bluejobs for their cooperation.
From AOC, or Lindsey Graham?
Definitely Lindsey.
Both, and they took snowballed back and forth when they were finished.
That porn scene gets me hot, dude!
Should we be worried that anything involving Lindsey Graham gets you hot?
Recent polling suggests that Americans are starting to recognize that such laws make no sense.
Au contraire! Americans are starting to recognize that such laws make perfect sense! And they're recognizing just exactly what the purpose of citizen disarmament laws are - the same as every citizen disarmament law always is.
The comment on the illustration is not completely accurate. The "two" firearms are in fact the same firearm with different furniture. No change in function, just ergonomics. Because ergonomic firearms are bad?
Mostly ergonomic changes - The one on top appears to have a muzzle brake.
It has a flash hider, so after you shoot at the fox raiding the hen house at night you don't lose all your night vision at once.
Thanks, Captain Obvious.
It has a flash hider, so after you shoot at the fox raiding the hen house at night you don't lose all your night vision at once.
Yeah Democrats doing exactly what they said they would do in 2020 when you gave them your endorsement Jacob. All within normal parameters. Fuck off asshole.
^
Sullum is one for whom gun rights are not a ‘deciding issue’.
Mean tweets are.
Can anyone find the clause in the Constitution that allows Congress to regulate assault weapons?
It's there, but only one with a heart as pure as Sir Galahad can see it. You know, people like Schumer and Pelosi.
Those who feel that Congress could enact an absolute, nationwide ban on abortion would argue the same thing.
Don't bills spell out their constitutional authority? I wonder what the bill said about this. What kind of congressperson would vote for a piece of legislation that didn't cite constitutional authority?
The preamble of the bill states, and I am quoting from memory so I may get the wording ever so slightly wrong but the clarity of purpose is retained:
"...and to ensure that the right to keep and bare arms is not unlimited."
The bills don't include them, but a "Constitutional Authority Statement" has to be attached.
For this bill, said statement reads, simply, "Congress has the power to enact this legislation pursuant to the following: Article I, Section 8 of the United States Constitution".
Since the bill makes it illegal to "import, sell, manufacture, transfer, or possess" the weapons, it presumably would be defended in court on the grounds that it deals with regulating commerce in these weapons (and the possession ban is necessary and proper to that regulation).
In other words, a federal, nationeode ban on abortion can be defended under tgis same logic.
It's right next to the other emanations and penumbras
My wife bought the mini-14 tactical just before it became illegal in our state. Probably the most uselessness gun we own, but the outlawing adds some serious value.
I hate to tell you this, but to most Americans, this push button issue is as irrelevant as abortion.
What Americans worry about right now is inflation, markets, the economy, taxes, illegal immigration, and education.
Good thing we don't let most Americans set our political priorities and policies.
Good thing we don't let most Americans set our political priorities and policies.
I'm wondering if this is intended to be sarcastic.
He, like any common sense American, owns an AR-15, so he can say those kinds of things.
Everyone of these dickless fucktards needs to be voted out of office, and if the Democrats somehow aren't sunk in November, bad juju is going to come of this. How these fucking morons thought that thumbing their nose at the SCOTUS, in light of Bruen, was smart is beyond me. On top of the fact some Democrats realized this is their Third Rail.....
Like Democrats really care about saving lives from gun violence. Their arguments are obviously framed as an attack on Republicans and conservative Independents.
Be fair. Half of Democrats are infantile, emotional children with fears conditioned by the tribe they have submitted to. For them, guns are just big, scary things that need to go away.
The other half are hardcore progressives with utopian plans for society. And guns might interfere with compliance.
"The other half are hardcore progressives with utopian plans for society. And guns might interfere with compliance."
When it comes down to it guns represent the divide between the right and left. The right wants the 2a strong because like the founders they realize the dangers of a govt that has disarmed their citizens. The left of course realize it as well, and want nothing more than an overreaching government who they can use against their enemies.
Unlike some sources AP got the description right: "House passes bill banning certain semi-automatic guns".
"The Dubious and Doomed 'Assault Weapon' Ban That the House Approved Today May Cost Democrats This Fall"
They just keep digging that hole deeper; get them a new shovel when they wear this one out; we need to get rid of them.
Let's be honest: the "ergonomic" features of the rifle at the top do make a difference to the performance of the rifle. If they didn't, then things like pistol grips and "combat" stocks would never have been invented.
no one ever got shot by a rifle and thought "At least it wasn't ergonomic!"
No, but there may be people who were shot who would have been missed if the rifle did not have such ergonomic features.
As I point out in what I just posted below, the cosmetic and ergonomic features are also a large part of the reason why they appeal to the kind of disturbed person that might think about doing something horrible.
And a large part of the reason ignorant lefty assholes are so scared of them, ignorant lefty asshole.
"No, but there may be people who were shot who would have been missed if the rifle did not have such ergonomic features."
There may be purple unicorns too; should be legislate as if there were?
^^^
Stop the Hate of TRANS
Gun sights are both ergonomically designed and help reduce misses too. Should they be banned?
I thought one of the arguments for banning Saturday Night Specials in the 1960s was that they were small, short barreled, had dinky grips and were hard to shot and hit what you were aiming at.
So now a gun should be banned because enhance ergonomics make it easier to hit what you're shooting at.
What about collateral damage caused by missing the intended target?
Perhaps it's just me, but I'd prefer that someone using a firearm for self defense in my neighborhood put as many of the rounds as possible into the intended target rather than elsewhere. I have a mild aversion to stray bullets.
Yeh - the features that have improved long guns over the last 60 years are banned by this bill simply because they are effective.
- folding or collapsing stock - feature allows the guns to be shared between people of different sizes (like husband and wife), and stored more easily.
- pistol grips - normal ergonomic feature available for electric drills, etc. It serves the additional purpose with firearms of rotating the shooting hand into a more natural shooting position, which in turn allows the bore of the gun to be dropped to be level with the shoulder, reducing, if not eliminating, muzzle climb.
- flash hiders/muzzle brakes/threaded barrels - allows customization. A flash hider allows the use of esp .223/5.56 at night, due to the design of those cartridges optimized for a longer (20”?) barrel. The flash comes from unburned powder being expelled from (legal) common shorter (e.g. 16”) barrels. The flash of the unburned powder kills your night vision, making reasonably quick followup shots problematic.
- barrel shrouds - pejorative term for features of modern long guns that make them more accurate (by more easily free floating the barrel) and providing locations for attaching all of the required (or at least desired) attachments, such as optics, lights, lasers, front grips, bipods, etc. And, yes, in combat, with a select fire (highly NFA regulated machine gun) version (I.e. M-16/M-4), it allows for more full auto fire by protecting the support hand from the heat of the barrel. But it is almost impossible for the barrel to heat up that much in normal operation of the legal semiautomatic version of that firearm to need the actual shrouding effect of these features.
"Let's be honest: the "ergonomic" features of the rifle at the top do make a difference to the performance of the rifle."
In a percentage which can probably not be measured.
Please tell us about your expertise in the design of military weapons.
Please tell us why anyone should waste time on your speculations.
I'm not "speculating". I'm making the rational assumption the professional military weapons designers know what they're doing, and so the features they design significantly improve the performance of rifles.
Bullshit.
So, you're saying that professional military weapons designers do NOT know what they're doing, and the features they add make no difference to performance?
So my, post right above yours. AR-15s, in particular, are soft shooting, accurate, and have almost no muzzle rise. Those are big reasons why the guns are so popular. One of the big reasons that this was possible was the addition of a pistol grip. Sounds like a small improvement. It wasn’t, because when combined with modern materials, significant ergonomic advantages were implemented. One advantage that I didn’t mention above was that the inline design of the bore of the gun with the shoulder (made possible with the pistol grip), besides reducing, if not eliminating, barrel rise, also allowed for a simple buffer system, that allowed for a weight and spring to absorb much of the recoil resulting from shooting the gun.
Does everyone who buys an AR-15 understand how this works? Of course not. But they do see the advantages by how the guns shoot.
Thank you; information instead of guesses.
Thank you; admitting you're wrong.
Thank you for throwing ignorant guesses around.
Reasoning based upon evident facts is not "guessing".
Whining from a piece of shit caught bullshitting; If you had done so, you might have offered support.
Guessing is bullshit.
Fuck off and die, asshole
irrelevant. shall not be infringed.
The image at the top, of the Ruger mini-14, is actually making the opposite case that the author wants. Just ask, which of those two rifles would appeal to some disaffected and disturbed young man? Which one would help them get their "man card" back?
The cosmetic differences between those two rifles is exactly the reason why the numbers of semi-automatic rifles sold in the U.S. have skyrocketed. They are being marketed as "what the military uses" to appeal to those fascinated by military culture and that fancy themselves to be "operators". Responsible gun ownership for sport and self-defense wasn't selling, so we ended up with the idea that guns = manliness + patriotism instead. That ended up selling very well.
“I own an AR-15,” Graham told Fox News host Chris Wallace. “If there’s a natural disaster in South Carolina where the cops can’t protect my neighborhood, my house will be the last one that the gang will come to, because I can defend myself.”
The idea of Lindsey Graham defending his home with an AR-15 is almost funny. Especially since the same laws that make it easy for him to get an AR-15 result in more of those guns being in circulation to get into the hands of those gangs he's so afraid of.
The whole "if guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns" argument is ignoring that reality. Criminals can only get whatever guns are manufactured and sold legally first. The black market for guns doesn't create them out of thin air. We've essentially created the circumstances that might justify the need for guns for self defense by making them easy to get.
This pile of lefty shit supports murder as a preventative if the victim might sometime do something the asshole doesn't like (exact quote):
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
What a pathetic excuse for a human being.
and....?
Stuff your head up your ass, and breathe deeply, Asshole.
I'll take your word for it, but thanks anyway.
Eat shit and die, lying Asshole.
Excellent post Jason. Most boys in America grew up playing army, cowboys, and cops and robbers with toy guns and unfortunately too many never outgrew the fascination and the fantasy. It's popular attitude here on this site.
Fuck off, slaver.
I heard a frog! Anyone else?
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
Another one!
Fuck off and die, Asshole
Derp da deep da riddle terp.
And how many crimes do you think that this bill will prevent? Turns out that there are almost no crimes committed by the guns that would be banned by this. Why? Because almost all firearms used in crimes in this country utilize handguns, because they can be easily concealed. These guns are useful for self defense and hunting. Just not for robbing stores.
Also note that your criminal class does get ahold of fully automatic assault rifles (which we can’t get) through smuggling, esp from Mexico, where guns our government gave theirs end up being sold by their military and police, and end up smuggled back up here and into the hands of gangs. Along with fully automatic AKs, smuggled over there from the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
There are significantly more firearms in civilian hands in this country already than there are people here (even including illegals). And, year by year, it gets more lopsided. Shutting down the purchase of firearms here completely might eventually dry up the supply of guns - in maybe a century. Of course, the “assault weapons” banned by this bill aren’t all that useful for criminals here - because they aren’t very concealable. And that means that the black market for them isn’t nearly as lucrative as for handguns.
And how many crimes do you think that this bill will prevent? Turns out that there are almost no crimes committed by the guns that would be banned by this.
You are arguing against something not being claimed by the proponents of this ban. No one is saying that banning "assault weapons" would significantly reduce murders in domestic violence situations or by the typical criminal. The argument is that these rifles really do seem to be the weapon of choice for people looking to kill large numbers of people in crowded public places, businesses that they used to work at, schools, and so on. And that is because they are especially well suited for that, with a high rate of fire, low recoil, and large capacity magazines. Coupled with the "cool factor" of being basically the same as weapons issued to infantry (minus the full auto), it is no surprise that this is the case.
Shutting down the purchase of firearms here completely might eventually dry up the supply of guns - in maybe a century.
And I'm trying to point out the absurdity of the situation here. Gun rights advocates are essentially saying that we need to keep these weapons easily available to "law abiding" citizens because of the danger presented by there being so many of them already out there, which is because they have been easy to obtain for so long. It's almost literally advocating for an arms race.
Jason, you might have also mentioned that AR-15s, unlike most handguns, fire high velocity rounds which despite being smaller caliber, do much more damage to tissue and organs. Due to their small caliber they also feature low recoil which gives the shooter even more control. Here is one ER docs account of the differences between these type weapons and handguns typically used in crime. There are many other similar accounts from other ER docs and you can find them through Google.
"As I opened the CT scan last week to read the next case, I was baffled. The history simply read “gunshot wound.” I have been a radiologist in one of the busiest trauma centers in the United States for 13 years, and have diagnosed thousands of handgun injuries to the brain, lung, liver, spleen, bowel, and other vital organs. I thought that I knew all that I needed to know about gunshot wounds, but the specific pattern of injury on my computer screen was one that I had seen only once before.
In a typical handgun injury, which I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ such as the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, gray bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.
I was looking at a CT scan of one of the mass-shooting victims from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, and was bleeding extensively. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?
The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semiautomatic rifle that delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. Nothing was left to repair—and utterly, devastatingly, nothing could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.
A year ago, when a gunman opened fire at the Fort Lauderdale airport with a 9 mm semiautomatic handgun, hitting 11 people in 90 seconds, I was also on call. It was not until I had diagnosed the third of the six victims who were transported to the trauma center that I realized something out of the ordinary must have happened. The gunshot wounds were the same low-velocity handgun injuries that I diagnose every day; only their rapid succession set them apart. And all six of the victims who arrived at the hospital that day survived.
Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim’s body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and the victim does not bleed to death before being transported to our care at the trauma center, chances are that we can save him. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different: They travel at a higher velocity and are far more lethal than routine bullets fired from a handgun. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than—and imparting more than three times the energy of—a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.
I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. Years ago I saw one from a man shot in the back by a swat team. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat traveling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.
With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun-shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to the trauma center to receive our care.
One of my ER colleagues was waiting nervously for his own children outside the school. While the shooting was still in progress, the first responders were gathering up victims whenever they could and carrying them outside the building. Even as a physician trained in trauma situations, there was nothing he could do at the scene to help save the victims who had been shot with the AR-15. Most of them died on the spot; they had no fighting chance at life.
As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients. It’s clear to me that AR-15 and other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, a movie theater, or a concert and to know that they are safe. Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active-shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door, and be silent—.."
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/
fire high velocity rounds
You mean like every other rifle?
Actually, with less energy than most "friendly" hunting rifles.
The lefty piece of shit Joe Asshole throwing bullshit around again.
i promise you that the defensive .40 cal ammo in my sig handgun will f you up a lot more that the fmj i shoot in my ar15.
Maybe we should find out.
.40 cal S&W has ~630 J leaving the barrel. 5.56x45mm NATO rounds, FMJ are upwards of 1700 J.
So, I think I'll believe the experience of trauma surgeons over you.
a defensive round is different. they're hollow point so they don't exit the body, but bounce around a tear things up. they're 165gr
& 1140fps. they will in fact f you up.
Looking up a .40 call 165 grain jacketed hollow point, yes. The muzzle velocity (varying slightly by manufacturer) is around 1140 feet per second. (347 meters per second for those that use metric, which is basically everyone besides the U.S. - and as a American physics teacher, I prefer it as well.) Muzzle energy is listed for one such bullet as 484 foot-pounds. (644 J)
The 5.56x45mm FMJ round (55 grain) has a muzzle velocity of 3260 ft/s (993 m/s). That is three times the velocity of your .40 cal. And since kinetic energy depends on the square of the velocity, the lower mass is more than overwhelmed by that much higher velocity, resulting in 1294 ft-lbs of energy (1755 J).
Is the .40 cal JHT going to 'f you up'? Yeah. But the 5.56 FMJ will do even more damage. It's simple physics. More kinetic energy translates directly into more damage to body tissue. As noted in what Joe Friday wrote, a rifle round like that has such high velocity and kinetic energy that the wake of the bullet through body tissue causes extensive damage to all tissue surrounding the wound itself, which, from that description, includes rupturing blood vessels not actually hit by the bullet itself.
The point of a handgun is that it is smaller. It can still be deadly enough for self defense, but it won't be possible to be accurate at longer ranges compared to a rifle or hold as much ammo in each magazine. And doing even more damage to an enemy means you can kill or completely incapacitate that enemy hitting locations that wouldn't neutralize them with a handgun round. Those are the reasons why infantry use rifles.
Sure, older, white Senators from South Carolina might fantasize about using their AR-15 to fend off gangs of looters after a hurricane, but is that a likely enough scenario to justify millions of those weapons being out there for the occasional nut to get them easily and shoot up a school and slaughter dozens of children?
thanks for the detailed info -- good post. i thought that the fmj, non allow point, would be a through and through doing less damage than a hollow point. isn't that generally true?
I understand the thinking, but it makes sense to hear the doctors describing what happens. I would certainly expect that a hollow point that opens up (like flower petals) would do extra damage due to that fact. Thus, for defensive use, it will be more likely to incapacitate if it mushrooms out. It also will punch harder if it doesn't go through, as it will transfer all of its momentum to the target. (It won't knock someone over like in the movies, though. That .40 cal round would have as much momentum as a baseball moving at 60 mph. I did the math.)
But for rifle rounds, what I was reading is that they are moving at such high velocities, that they mushroom and fragment in soft tissue without the hollow point. And perhaps the FMJ also helps them penetrate light armor as well? I'm not sure.
You are waxing theoretical, as someone who is running back and forth to a "wiki" page to get your information.
IOW, nothing you are pasting here makes a lot of sense. You do not have direct knowledge of firearms?
Bruce, the Buffalo and Texas mass shooting of the last 2 months were performed by young nuts who were not 21 yet.
Most criminals get guns from other criminals who steal them or have buyers in easy to get places like Georgia who then drive them up to places like NYC and sell them to those who can't buy legally.
The fact that handguns are the most commonly used weapons in crimes does not somehow change the fact that AR-15 like weapons are designed to massacre humans efficiently and are good for little else. Like other especially lethal and otherwise useless weapons they should not be easily available. Most Americans agree with that.
Shut up, nazi faggot.
So build a wall around NYC, right?
We tried that in 1997, remember? President Pleasance ended up on the wrong side of it.
We'll do it right this time!
They will continue to be easily available to gangs.
Police departments use AR-15s as patrol rifles.
Yes, AR-15s were originally designed as a military weapon. Not the first weapons so designed - for example the .30-08 Springfield cartridge was designed for war, but has probably taken more deer and elk than any other. The M1 Garand, that shoots that cartridge, was our main battle rifle during WW II (Gen Patton called it the best battle rifle ever built), then went on to be a premier deer and elk rifle, when millions were surplussed.
The AR-15/M16 started the same way - in response to government RFPs. (Actually, the AR-10 was similarly designed in response to an earlier military RFP (won by what became the M14), and then scaled down for the .223/5.56 cartridge when the M14 turned out to not be very controllable in fully automatic fire). In any case,
The civilian, semiautomatic, version of the M16, the AR-15, was introduced by Colt about the same time as the military M16, with little success. The Dems, under Clinton banned them anyway. Then, when the ban expired 10 years later, the market exploded - and the technology exploded similarly. The AR-15 market technology drives long gun technology to this day. Innovations almost always start there, and migrate to the rest of the long gun market (and even handgun market, with red dot sights, etc).
But you are wrong that the only thing that AR-15s are good for are mass killings. In .223/5.56, they are probably the premier hunting rifle for hogs and coyotes. They do well with wolves too - except that those are not optimal cartridges for longer distances. Works for deer too. But not heavy enough for elk, bear, moose, etc. No problem - AR-15s have been chambered for almost everything between .17 and .50 BMG, and it takes seconds to pull the two pins and switch upper receivers, changing caliber, barrel length, etc. Of course, for heavier calibers (more useful for larger animals), the AR-10 platform may be better. But yes, the AR-15 is heavily used for hunting these days.
Then there is self defense - these guns are not that concealable, so they aren’t that useful offensively, but many believe them to be the premier gun for defending your family, home, and property. With the right ammunition, they have less penetration of walls, etc. Plus, in most states, standard capacity 20-30 round magazines provide sufficient capacity for confronting multiple attackers. Much better accuracy than handguns, and quicker follow up shots, etc.
Bruce, I appreciate the sensible post.
If "hunting" coyotes and hogs is it - hogs are plentiful where I live - there are alternatives for that purpose which would also not be as portable or lethal as AR-15 like weapons, and therefore less dangerous to the public. Likewise for self defense, where presumably you are in your home and portability is not an issue.
You do realize that theft or diversion from military and police are significant sources of criminal and black market guns across the world?
That workshop manufacture of Sten or Karl Gustav style submachines guns ("Carlos" or "rattlets") are a common source of criminal and terrorist arms in Europe, the Middle East, India, and South America? That Australian biker gangs manufacture MAC-10 submachines guns in their work shops?
Sometimes the black market does create guns, out of sheet metal, pipes, high pressure gas piping, if not from thin air?
Jerkoff Slocum is as gun queer as they come and in this column shows it by claiming polling is against banning "assault rifles", when the opposite is true. Democrats can and will beat their GOP opponents over the head with this issue in the fall, and with abortion will hopefully turn many of those falsely blaming Biden for world wide inflation and high gas prices.
This was low effort even by your standards.
"Standards"?
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
You live under a bridge, right?
Eat whit and die, Asshole.
See? That's what Joe Asshole deserves.
What? What do you see Sevo? Flashbacks? Signs from your demons?
Fuck off and die, Asshole.
"The much-ridiculed reference to bayonet mounts is gone, for example,"
Good.
Now the M-1 Garand, "the finest battle implement ever devised", is no longer an assault rifle.
(Cartridge .30-06 Springfield
No. built 5,468,772
Rate of fire 40–50 rounds/min
Muzzle velocity 2,800 ft/s (853 m/s)
Effective firing range 500 yd (457 m))
Guadalcanal, Normandy, and Belgium softest hit
My all-time favorite assault gun is the StuG III G. Wicked effective in the right hands.
anyone supporting this is a complete moron. having a folding stock, pistol grip or barrel shroud does not make the firearm any more deadly. this bill is just further evidence that democrats lack any and all critical thinking skills. if passed, which it won't, this bill would instantly make many millions of americans felons.
Wrong. All those things make a rifle look more scary. And for most of the elitists on the left, who will statistically never encounter any weapons used in anger, scary emotions are taken as life threatening. But in their woke universe, emotions are the most important thing.
Thus they need to ban not just weapons, but the very idea (and image) of weapons, especially the scary ones.
https://reason.com/2022/07/29/the-dubious-and-doomed-assault-weapon-ban-that-the-house-approved-today-may-cost-democrats-this-fall/?comments=true#comment-9625627
If, legally, a firearm is defined as a lower receiver, how do different attachments change what kind of firearm it is?
it changes when democrats say it changes
The solution to gun violence is to buy an electric car, or something.
The latest estimate is there are a least 20 million AR 15s [not counting AK and other such weapons] in circulation in the US.
Now let us consider how many are misused; a very very small percentage.
WE who own them are not the problem. That is why efforts to ban them continually generate two things. Once is demand, and the other is advocacy. Which is why gun control is continually failing, especially the "Joe Friday" versions with nothing but misinformation [euphemism for lies] and even more self righteousness.
the border crisis
gas prices
inflation
wars
stock market decline
increased crime
food shortages
supply chain woes
increased regulations
higher taxes
assault weapons ban
sexualizing young children
labeling parents as terrorists
WILL Cost Democrats This Fall
Take your pick or add why you won't vote for a Democrat
It's not that I like Republicans that I vote for them; it's that I loathe Democrats and everything they now stand for. Primary among these is a love of big government and endless regulations.
That last "assault weapons ban" cost the dims plenty. This one does even less and will likely cost them more, as they needed any more self-inflicted damage.