When 'Pro-Life' Becomes 'Pro-Censorship'
Antiabortion activists are the new Anthony Comstocks.

The demise of Roe v. Wade has unleashed a flurry of activity by antiabortion activists looking for ways to finish the job. They are now exploring ways to stop people not just from performing abortions but from sharing information about abortion services.
The National Right to Life Committee (NLRC) has drafted model legislation to provide what it calls "an effective enforcement regime" to stamp out abortion. A centerpiece of the proposal would make it a felony to "aid and abet" abortions by "giving instructions over the telephone, the internet, or any other medium of communication regarding self-administered abortions or means to obtain an illegal abortion" or "hosting or maintaining a website, or providing internet service, that encourages or facilitates efforts to obtain an illegal abortion." The law would provide for civil enforcement as well.
These legal tactics and messianic zeal bring to mind Anthony Comstock, the most prominent anti-vice crusader of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Comstock started in 1872 as a vigilante, making "citizen's arrests" of smut peddlers on the streets of New York. But he quickly became, in the words of H.L. Mencken, "the Copernicus of a quite new art and science," one "who first capitalized moral endeavor like baseball or the soap business, and made himself the first of its kept professors."
Comstock had his own model law, which he persuaded Congress to adopt in 1873. It said that no "obscene, lewd, or lascivious book, pamphlet, picture, paper, print, or other publication of an indecent character, or any article or thing designed or intended for the prevention of conception or procuring of an abortion, nor any article or thing intended or adapted for any indecent or immoral use or nature…shall be carried in the mail." This was popularly known as the "Comstock law," and Congress designated him a special agent of the Post Office, vested with the power to enforce the law personally.
Comstock also headed the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice. From these twin positions, he terrorized writers, publishers, free thinkers, birth control advocates, physicians, and artists, jailing thousands and driving at least 15 to suicide. Near the end of his 40-year career, Comstock claimed to have convicted enough people "to fill a passenger train of sixty-one coaches, sixty coaches containing sixty passengers each and the sixty-first almost full." Comstock's law targeted obscenity, but in his mind, anything that related to sex was obscene. This covered information on contraception or abortion, including that found in popular home health guides, such as Edward Bliss Foote's book Medical Common Sense.
Comstock died in 1915, just days after his successful prosecution of William Sanger, husband of birth control advocate Margaret Sanger, for handing out one of his wife's pamphlets on family limitation. Death ended Comstock's career, but not his influence on American law. That didn't happen until much later, as the Supreme Court adopted more robust First Amendment protections for freedom of expression—including, specifically, speech related to abortion and birth control.
Those legal developments make it highly unlikely that NLRC's model legislation will succeed. In Bigelow v. Virginia (1975), the Supreme Court struck down a state law that prohibited encouraging or prompting an abortion by the sale or circulation of any publication. Virginia had prosecuted the publisher of a Virginia-based underground newspaper that had run an ad for legal abortion services in New York at a time when abortion had been illegal in Virginia. Among other things, the advertisement stated that "abortions are now legal in New York," provided contact information "for immediate placement in accredited hospitals and clinics," and offered to "make all arrangements for you and help you with information and counseling."
The Court held the First Amendment protects such speech. It observed that, just as Virginia lacked constitutional authority to prevent its residents from traveling to New York to obtain abortions, it could not, "under the guise of exercising internal police powers, bar a citizen of another State from disseminating information about an activity that is legal in that State." The Court has since upheld the First Amendment right to disseminate information about birth control in numerous cases. And when Congress tried to ban transmitting information about abortion via the internet in the Communications Decency Act in 1996, the Justice Department declined to enforce the law, calling it an obviously unconstitutional.
Comstock wannabes may come and go, but today they must contend with something the old morals crusader did not—strong and well-established constitutional protections for freedom of speech.
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Antiabortion activists are the new Anthony Comstocks.
Did y’all just out who runs “Hank Philips”?
Chant this article over a pentagram to summon his ghost when he passes.
Abortion is murder.
Do any of you fuckwits advocate informing people how to access murder?
Are you actually accusing me of being pro-abortion, Goebbels?
No, just of being a fuckwit.
It’s not all about you.
Then why the fuck did you respond to my comment?
Too bad your mother didn't get an abortion though.
Or maybe she tried and she got you: a sub-human piece of shit.
No it's not. Look up murder. Then look up abortion. Inform yourself before you comment.
They let the dumbass write an article even
Well, they let you spout Pro-Putin venom here....
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Nope. Hank is alive and among us as Libertariantranslator. His repetitiousness does not invalidate his statements of fact on the Comstock Act, nor on Prohibition, The Corn Laws, or Ayn Rand. (I still can't get my heasd around "spoiler votes," or cribbing Roe from the LP Platform, so go figure.)
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"The Case for Voting Libertarian" has been up with excel graphs and mp3 audio since 2007 at hankphillips.com. Voting for a platform and causing one of the looter parties to lose seats makes them pay attention. Before 1930 all third parties were communist or religious fanatics, or both. So their spoiler clout made things worse. Getting 3.28% and upsetting the Kleptocracy with 4 million votes caused them to counterattack with infiltrators. That too is an old tactic.
Never underestimate the ability of Congress to foul things up.
Nah, the woke left are the new Spanish Inquisition.
The wokies would have been unbelievable just ten years ago. I remember, vaguely, McCarthy-era non-communist loyalty oaths, and the wokies make them look like the cartoon "No Girlz Allowed" signs. How anyone can put any credence in their puritanical obsession with pronouns and multiple genders is beyond me. It's not just the illogic of expecting everyone to remember a bunch of made-up words or gender identities; it's their obsession with changing children's gender with chemicals and surgery. I used to think NAMBLA was bizarre; now they must wonder what they were doing wrong all these years for the gravy train to have passed them by.
I used to think NAMBLA was bizarre; now they must wonder what they were doing wrong all these years for the gravy train to have passed them by.
What they're doing wrong? You mean how they finally figured out how to do it right.
^
I always figured NAMBLA just got swept up in the woke rush, not that they were part of it.
Get over your panic. Michel Foucault was a boy lover in Tunisia!
Wanting to diddle young boys is an orientation. We're all just neutral bits of carbon, floating in the atmosphere, occasionally bumping into one another.
From clumps of cells to clumps of cells.
Some of that carbon bumps into more recently synthesized carbon.
NAMBLA just outsourced their ideas to the school system. Think of it as a 'rebranding'.
Ask Chemcastrated Jeff.
LOL
NOBODY EXPECTS THE WOKE LEFT!!! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to CRT.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
Meanwhile, pro-abortionists are bombing and otherwise terrorizing crisis pregnancy centers.
Don't worry ENB already wrote an article about how that is libritarian
And far left state and local governments are looking forways to legally harass them.
Not to mention trying to use the government to shut them down.
I thought they were all busy shutting down local school board opponents?
And harrassing and intimidating Supreme Court justices.
If "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" are funded with government money and they aren't putting out accurate and complete information about pregnancy and all of women' health including abortion options, they're committing fraud and should be shut down.
Lots and lots of books are written about murder, and no one bats an eye. But far as I know, no one writes murder how-to guides complete with telephone numbers, addresses, costs, etc. However, abortion is legal to varying degrees in different jurisdictions, so that's not a very good analogy.
A better analogy is suicide; I believe there are one or two states where medically-assisted suicide is legal. I doubt any of those places advertise like legal abortion clinics do, or offer telephone or internet advice on self-administered suicide, or send out mass mailings on their services, but if they did, I can easily imagine a lot of political uproar, complete with calls to band such advertising, charges of aiding and abetting, refusals to extradite, etc.
Comstock seems a bit of a stretch, his kind of mass postal censorship being a bit old-fashioned; Playboy has presumably been sent through the mails since its inception in the 1950s.
Better analogy might be the people who want to ban books on how to assemble home-made firearms in places where there are firearms regulations. And it's good because the comparison invites people to look at it in comparison to an issue on the other side of the aisle, to see how each of them align with their principles.
You can't ban people from learning information about where pregnancy centers are in other states. I'm not a fan of "do-it-yourself- at home kits for this sort thing, though. That said, it's probably a free speech thing for that information to be out there. If they're actually advocating cutting up the baby two weeks before it pops out, we may need to have a Brandenburg conversation about it.
That just might be so; firearm laws differ a lot more than suicide. Good idea.
I was thinking about the gun analogy, too. And besides the issue of information and censorship, I suggest both sides have similar desires to have us "unknow" the very concept. One side wishes for a world without guns, the other for a world without abortions.
What gun politics are to Team Red, abortion politics are to Team Blue.
And as Thomas Paine observed, once men know the truth, you cannot make them un-know it.
I can recall getting copies of Dan Duchaine's Dirty Dieting Newsletter (among other publications) with rather explicit descriptions of how to attain various substances, how to dose and cycle for various body weight and composition in the 80s. AFAIK, no direct advice was ever given to teens/minors. But we still, a decade after his death, hauled a dozen or so pro-athletes in front of Congress to 'try' them for substance (ab)use and continue to do so.
His ultimate work is available on Amazon, is still pretty illegal, dangerous, and effective. But it is actually pretty blasé by today's internet standards.
Comstock is a retarded practical argument after the founding of UPS (1907) and Fedex (1971), let alone things like Silk Road).
Presumably, the jurisdiction of the Comstock Act would also apply to private package carriers.
the reason there is not much widespread about assisted suicide is because most of the laws allowing it explicitly prevent advertising it. it isn't prevented by the states that ban the practice, it is banned by the states that do. to get to the equivalent, you would have to get the states that allow abortion to ban any advertising. that ain't gonna happen.
better analogy would be the websites of the legal brothels in Nevada. the information is there for any who are seeking it, and there really is not much the states that ban prostitution can do about it.
Good thing the economy is doing so well that we can spend all our time worrying about abortion.
Maybe if we had more abortions, like broken windows, the economy would pick up.
Abortion helps the economy by keeping people in the labor force who are unable to raise a child without quitting their jobs.
And as to this article itself, where was the author, and where was the Reason editorial staff, when pro-abortionists were trying to shut down and defund the anti-abortion centers?
Anti-abortion laws are as doomed to failure as anti-alcohol, anti-drug, anti-nicotine, all anti-contraband laws. But seeing only the one side is ridiculous.
What is an anti-abortion center? Unplanned Parenthood? Calvary Baptist church?
A place that advocates continuing pregnancy until birth, offering advice, medical checkups, financial assistance, adoption assistance ...
You know, anti-abortion. Are you just pretending to be dumb, are you trying to pretend to be sarcastic, or are you really as pathetic as your reputation says?
Are you just pretending to be dumb, are you trying to pretend to be sarcastic, or are you really as pathetic as your reputation says?
I've never seen an anti-abortion center. Unless you mean church annexes with gross pictures in the windows.
On a more serious note, do you still beat your wife?
"I've never seen an anti-abortion center"
You definitely have.
They're all over the place. They're usually called pregnancy centers and pregnancy clinics.
They're staffed by medical staff and funded by churches and charities. They give free OBGYN, pregnancy, birth and post partum care to mothers who choose to keep their babies, and arrange adoption services for those who don't.
That's the places the "pro-choice" people are burning down and vandalizing.
I believe you, but I've never seen one. Sounds like a worthy use of church and charity money.
Promoting options is not pro-choice!
Choose death.
@Earth-based Human Skeptic: Promoting only some options is not pro-choice because ultimately YOU are attempting to make the choice for the woman.
Lol, show me 10 vandalized or burned down "pregnancy centers" and I'll show you 100 vandalized or burned down abortion clinics. The anti-abortion movement is the most violent political movement in America today.
He doesn’t have to pretend
Those are the places pretending to be planned parenthood so that they harass the women who come in trying to schedule an abortion. If you google 'abortion' in a red state, you'll get tons of them showing up.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/16/georgia-abortion-crisis-pregnancy-centers
Anti-abortion laws are as doomed to failure as anti-alcohol, anti-drug, anti-nicotine, all anti-contraband laws.
Agreed. Prohibition doesn't work.
Keerist, you were better when you muted me. Do I have to double dog dare you again? Fine. I double dog dare you to mute me. You haven't got the guts.
So you're angry that I agree with you? Is it going to ruin your reputation or something? Get you kicked out of your tribe?
Idiot. You waffle so much that no one can tell when you agreement or disagreement is real, feigned, or just plan random.
You could learn a thing or two from OBL. Does one thing well. His side forays into filling in for buttplug are just a minor variation.
If you want to uphold your handle, stick with real sarcasm. If any of your remarks are sarcastic, they are lost in the noise.
The only times I waffle are when I disagree with what others say about me. By myself I'm pretty consistent.
new generation, new need to learn the lesson.
Anti- shoplifting and anti-money laundering and anti-rape laws don’t “work” either, I guess, in the sense those things still happen. But they are still deterrents and still worth “banning”
The derp section is over there. No, more to the left. More. More. Yeah, out the door. There you go.
Is that the best you can do?
Explain how you determine whether a legal prohibition “works” or not
Abortion is not money-laundering, shoplifting or rape. Those are crimes. Crimes have victims. Abortion is not a crime and has no victim.
Woman-baiting fanaticism will "work" if it rallies women voters to get rid of the National Socialist Republicans. The Volstead act was done in largely by Pauline Sabin and the Women's Organization for National Prohibition Repeal. The text of the Volstead Act is being posted at LIBertrans.blogspot.com because I couldn't find it anywhere else but in tiny-print pamphlets and Congressional Record images.
"Ever notice at those anti-abortion rallies? You wouldn't want to fuck any of 'em anyway!"
-George Carlin
Have you SEEN the whales proclaiming sex strikes over the Dobbs decision?
But mating whales are supposed to be beautiful. At least at sea.
Ever done the nasty in a pool? In my opinion it's very overrated.
"...National Right to Life Committee (NLRC)..."
Corn-Hole can't even get the acronym correct right after the full name.
Also, some far-right abortiabolishists write up some draft legislation that has virtually no possibility to pass. We are squinting to see gnats now just to keep it in the headlines.
...giving instructions over the telephone, the internet, or any other medium of communication regarding self-administered abortions....
So, if we don't celebrate back-alley abortions, why women will be reduced to back-alley abortions. I consider myself moderately pro-choice. But, you've got to realize how utterly tone deaf this sounds.
It's funny how, without Roe, it's becoming much more clear that pro-choicers are advocating a return to a time when abortion was effectively, "shove foreign objects up there (or consume noxious weeds from the local ditch) until an aborted fetus pops out" because, without Roe, that's what they'll be reduced to. 'Safe, legal, and rare' never really was on the table.
In an alternate universe, a left-wing court overturns Heller and declares that there is no individual right to own a gun.
In this universe, gun rights groups, insistent to preserve their right to own guns regardless of what the court says, circulate plans on the internet for how to construct guns at home.
And Bizarro Mad.Casual scoffs, "It's become apparent that, without Heller, those gun nuts have been reduced to building DIY death traps that are more likely to blow their own heads off than to kill any commies. It just goes to show that their claims of 'responsible gun ownership' was never really on the table in the first place! What a bunch of hypocritical losers!"
Wrong analogy.
In an alternate universe, murder is outlawed so people share information on how to poison your neighbor without getting caught.
Well, if that's what we are going to go with...
In an alternate universe, "military-style assault weapons of war" are outlawed, so people share information on how to fight a rebel insurgency to overthrow the government without getting caught.
Sound fair?
I mean, you literally have Congresspeople pushing to censor advertising from Pro life wellness centers. But go with this angle instead.
You expect people on the left to censor. That's not news. People on the right are supposed to be above that sort of thing. That's what makes it news.
Well that's surprisingly... sensible.
You know what I hate about all this censorship? The hypocrisy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljaP2etvDc4&ab_channel=chaimy4life
Who says?
People get to set the standards of what is acceptable in their communities. It's the left that believes that anything goes, not the right.
It's the left that believes that anything goes, not the right.
Isn't that what I said? You expect the left to be emotional. The right is supposed to be clearer headed. Which of those two is going to say anything goes?
I think one should probably cover both. Though, this article is kind of click-baity in a way I don't like. It states directly towards the end that this would be unconstitutional if it got passed, and that's sort of a big open question anyway.
Though, that's almost certainly true of any anti-crisis center stuff, too. Unless Congress does that thing where it withholds funding in some way.
So who is actually interfering with peoples' reproductive rights? The ones who want the option to not reproduce even after getting pregnant, or the ones trying to censor establishments that want to help people reproduce?
Pro-life people become pro-censorship when they try to prevent information about how to get an abortion from being published
And pro-choice people become pro-censorship when they try to get Google to remove pregnancy crisis centres from search results
Yet again, its the extremes. And yet again, there are people who want to paint everyone in one camp or the other as adherents to this ideological extreme.
What happened to just saying "censorship is bad", regardless of whether its to advance pro-life or pro-choice goals?
the challenge is the continuing game of whataboutism..... call team A out for what they are doing wrong, and all they can do is cry about that time the other side did basically the same thing. somehow, they all seem to miss the point.
Yes, it's called hypocracy or repressive tolerance. They don't actually give a shit about the principle they cloak themselves in they merely use it as a cudgel to advance their view and condone the very da me behavior by their allies.
Judges are being stalked and are facing assassination attempts
and pregnancy centers are being burned and vandalize, but Reason says the real problem is people not wanting babies killed.
Fuck you, Robert Corn-Revere, you ghoulish, demagogic hack.
And fuck you, KMW for not editing this hot garbage.
That's right. Fuck you, Robert Corn-Revere, for having the temerity to point out that ML's tribe is a bunch of censorious assholes.
That's a pretty ballsy accusation from a shill for the party actually proposing that search engines censor pro-life pregnancy centers and ban them from advertising.
It's like this constantly with you guys. You're always accusing everyone of doing exactly what you're doing. You wear hypocrisy like royal robes.
Here's a letter addressed to Alphabet CEO Sundar Pichai on June 17, from Elizabeth Warren, Amy Klobuchar, Richard Blumenthal, Dianne Feinstein, Kirsten Gillibrand, and Bernie Sanders, demanding he censor crisis pregnancy centers.
https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/26F26BB28841042A7931EEC58AC80E08.anti-abortion-letter-to-google-final.pdf
Here's Google acquiescing: https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/google-live-action-pro-life-groups-ads-unproven-medical-claims
Explain how this isn't far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far fucking worse than what you and Corn-Revere are claiming.
Jeff, you're the ones harrassing and trying to assassinate judges, you're the ones burning down pregnancy centers, you're the ones crafting censorship laws and leaning on corporations to censor, and yet you guile filled fucks have the temerity to pretend that the pro-lifers are practicing censorship?
Fuck you!
It's truly just remarkable gaslighting and self-imposed ignorance anymore.
ML, you are the one trying to force women to give birth against their will, letting kids get murdered in school by giving psychos easy access to guns, fomenting insurrection and trying to assassinate the Vice-President when the election doesn't go your way, want to sacrifice Grandma to COVID so that you can go get a haircut, want to prevent schools from teaching kids anything that might actually reveal the racist past and the racist present of this country, will drive your SUVs right up until the moment the oceans all boil away, and are generally the world's biggest narcissists who do not give one flying fuck about anyone's problems unless that problem happens to affect YOU personally; and, then and only then, will only do something about it to remove the burden from your life and to hell with everyone else.
That is your team, ML.
Oh wait, you don't think that is a fair characterization? Huh. Well neither is your characterization of me.
"you are the one trying to force women to give birth against their will"
No. 100 million years of therian mammal evolution dictates that, you anti-science fuck.
The rest of your sperg out about guns, "insurrection" and the black covid death is a pack of psychotic lies invented by your Nazi handlers to gaslight wine moms into voting for them. Every bit of it bullshit in an attempt to enslave their own country.
You and your pals are utterly evil and there's nothing you psychopaths won't stoop to.
The rest of your sperg out about guns, "insurrection" and the black covid death is a pack of psychotic lies
Actually, you are right that it is mostly incorrect. I don't think Team Red really wants kids to die in school. I don't think the Jan. 6 rioters were actually staging an insurrection. But if I wanted to try to mischaracterize Team Red to make them appear far worse than they really are, that screed is where I would start. So if you think that is a pack of 'psychotic lies', now you understand how I feel when you describe me as a literal Nazi.
But team Democrat is far worse. It's no hyperbole to note that it's the second worse political party in the modern West after the Nazis. Unlike your claims about the right, everything that I pointed out actually happened.
Oh, and I don't give a shit about how you "feel".
have the temerity to pretend that the pro-lifers are practicing censorship?
They *are* proposing censorship. Read the article. And that makes you angry, because it makes your tribe look just like the censorious fucks that you claim the other tribe is.
News Flash: your tribe really isn't all that different from their tribe. You're both a bunch of collectivist morons who don't value liberty for its own sake, and are only interested in power to control other people's lives.
Letting child molesters in to the country has nothing to do with liberty, you fat fuck.
Boy you love to bring that up, don't you? Usually when I've scored a zinger on a member of your tribe. Although you are much more comfortable with a government using authoritarian measures to punish your enemies, aren't you?
But if you want to talk about asylum, we can do that. So, why don't you give us your thoughts on what should be the criteria for offering asylum to people in other nations.
Oh, wait a minute. When you bring up that line about child molesters, it is never a serious attempt by you to discuss the often complex issues of asylum. No it is just a swipe that you like to take at me because you enjoy the demagoguery on the issue. You don't want to discuss issues, you want to demonize and vilify the people you don't like, and then whip up the mob into a frenzy of outrage by showing them how evil they are. With these efforts, the truth doesn't really matter. All that matters is the righteous anger from the outraged mob directed at the 'correct' targets. If you can get the mob outraged by convincing them that the government is bringing in child molesters, or that the schools are full of pedophiles grooming young children, or that transgender people are mentally deranged perverts who sexually desire children and therefore can't be allowed in the 'wrong' bathroom, or that the government is creating a literal Ministry of Truth that will throw you in jail for nothing more than posting memes on Twitter, or that the government is encouraging and bringing in those filthy illegals and flying them around the country and parking them *in your own neighborhood*, then all the better. Whatever it takes to stoke fear and outrage. Focus on topics like sex and children, or criminals intruding into people's personal safety, or a monstrous government behaving in cartoonishly evil ways, because that tends to stir up lots of emotion and/or anxiety in people.
The point is, the truth must be subordinated to narratives that generate tons of emotion, the more the better. Which is why you bring up the child molester thing so often. Like you actually give a shit about asylum.
"the truth must be subordinated to narratives that generate tons of emotion, the more the better"
This is what collectivistjeff actually believes, as we see him demonstrate here all day every day.
Truly one of the most fundamentally dishonest characters ever encountered.
LOL I am one of the people around here who continually call bullshit on the perpetual Team Red demagoguery and their over-the-top outrage factory. YOU are one who fits that description to a tee. The truth truly does not matter to you. All that matters is to shape the facts into lies and narratives that generate emotion and outrage, and then to direct that emotion and outrage against the 'correct people'.
That is how a teacher reading 'Heather Has Two Mommies' in a first-grade class turns into OMG GROOMER TEACHERS HAVING GRAPHIC SEX TALK WITH YOUNG KIDS.
That is how transgender people being permitted to use the bathroom of their choice turns into OMG TRANNY RAPISTS STALKING LITTLE GIRLS IN THE BATHROOM.
That is how a teacher discussing ANY issue involving race and power that deviates from the accepted right-wing line turns into OMG CRITICAL RACE THEORY DANGEROUS IDEOLOGY MUST BE BANNED.
The plan is for demagogues to manipulate the emotions of the mob so that they gain power. And you fall for it every day.
"They *are* proposing censorship"
Reporting people breaking laws isn't censorship, you retarded fuck. If I called the police because someone is arranging a murder, it's not censorship, regardless of whether the target is 3 months or 30 years.
Reporting people breaking laws isn't censorship,
From the proposed law: It would be a felony to "giving instructions over the telephone, the internet, or any other medium of communication regarding self-administered abortions"
But a self-administered abortion would not be illegal in most states, not even in the red states, where they explicitly state that the women won't be prosecuted for an abortion.
So the state would prosecute people for the speech encouraging others to commit a legal act. That is state censorship, a violation of the First Amendment, and yes, way worse than some Senators demanding - not even proposing a law, just blowing hot air - that Google be accurate in its search results.
That is way worse, you know it, which is why you are trying to go over the top to make Team Blue look as absolutely horrible as possible, so as to obscure how bad Team Red really looks here.
"It would be a felony to "giving instructions over the telephone, the internet, or any other medium of communication regarding self-administered abortions"
I think that's fucking fantastic. Ratting out pedophiles and serial killers isn't "censorship" by any definition, and neither is ratting out babykillers.
The rest of your argument is based on the claim that they're ratting out a legal procedure in that state, which is a flat out lie.
Weak. Very weak. Not even in the most restrictive red states are they charging the pregnant woman with a crime for getting an abortion. You favor state censorship of speech regarding a legal procedure. Full stop.
The letter does not advocate for banning anti-abortion centers from advertising.
You're lying.
How so, Joe?
Explain to us all how question 2 isn't demanding censorship.
demanding he censor crisis pregnancy centers.
But this is a lie. They did not demand that Google censor crisis pregnancy centers. They demanded that when someone searches for getting an abortion in Google, that the search results accurately display information about abortion clinics, and not crisis pregnancy centers, which do not offer abortions. They never stated that crisis pregnancy centers shouldn't be in Google search results at all. Go ahead and argue against the propriety of senators making this kind of demand of Google, but at least be honest about stating what their actual demands are.
Here's Google acquiescing:
This link is for Google acquiescing only to not running ads for the so-called "abortion reversal pill", which is not an FDA-approved treatment. Google could potentially face liability if someone relies on their ad to take this pill and then is harmed. Sure it could be some partisan political reason, but it is far more likely to be due to CYA. Google doesn't want to get sued by people harmed from an unapproved treatment that they allowed to have advertised on their site.
So, you are 0-for-2 today in being honest.
"that the search results accurately display information about abortion clinics, and not crisis pregnancy centers, which do not offer abortions."
That's actual censorship by any standard, you dishonest fuck. They're demanding the blocking of the advertising of choice and alternatives.
That's far closer to actual censorship than what you and Corn-Revere are trying to slime.
"so-called "abortion reversal pill", which is not an FDA-approved treatment.
So what? It's legal and well tested. Aspirin as a blood thinner for cardiac events wasn't a FDA-approved treatment for decades, and yet millions of people were prescribed it for exactly that Thalidomide for leprosy is another example, the list of drugs being prescribed for non-FDA-approved treatments are endless, because ultimately approving treatment is not the FDA's focus. Approving drugs is.
That's a bullshit excuse for censorship and everyone knows it.
"Google could potentially face liability"
No it can't. Who the fuck do you think you're tricking. Not even Google made that claim.
So, as usual you are 0-for-2 today in being honest. And since dishonesty is your job, good for you I guess.
They're demanding the blocking of the advertising of choice and alternatives.
This is a lie. Here are the three demands that the Senators made of Google:
1. What steps will Google take to limit the appearance of anti-abortion fake clinics or so-called 'crisis pregnancy centers' in Google search results, Google Ads, and on Google Maps when users search for "abortion clinic," "abortion pill," or similar terms?
2. If Google will not take action to prevent anti-abortion fake clinics from appearing in search results, will Google add user-friendly disclaimers that clearly indicate whether or not a search result does or does not provide abortion?
3. What additional steps will Google take to ensure that users are receiving accurate information when they search for health care services like abortion on Google Search and Google Maps when users search for "abortion clinic," "abortion pill," or similar terms?
This is a demand from Senators that Google search results accurately correspond to what the user was trying to search for. There is absolutely nothing in this letter about blocking, banning, removing or suppressing crisis pregnancy centers from Google search results. Instead the Senators are demanding that if a user searches for "where is the nearest abortion clinic" that the Google search results *for that search* don't include a crisis pregnancy center, because that's not what the user was searching for.
I do not like Senators making demands like this because I think it is very inappropriate for them to be trying to meddle into the particular details of how ANY business operates, including Google. Not to mention that it is pure grandstanding. So I don't support what these Senators have done. But at least I understand what they actually tried to do, not what you imagine they tried to do.
So what? It's legal and well tested.
That's not the relevant standard.
No it can't. Who the fuck do you think you're tricking. Not even Google made that claim.
https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/advertising-marketing-internet-rules-road
The FTC Act prohibits unfair or deceptive advertising in any medium. That is, advertising must tell the truth and not mislead consumers. A claim can be misleading if relevant information is left out or if the claim implies something that's not true. For example, a lease advertisement for an automobile that promotes "$0 Down" may be misleading if significant and undisclosed charges are due at lease signing.
In addition, claims must be substantiated, especially when they concern health, safety, or performance. The type of evidence may depend on the product, the claims, and what experts believe necessary. If your ad specifies a certain level of support for a claim - "tests show X" - you must have at least that level of support.
Sellers are responsible for claims they make about their products and services. Third parties - such as advertising agencies or website designers and catalog marketers - also may be liable for making or disseminating deceptive representations if they participate in the preparation or distribution of the advertising, or know about the deceptive claims.
So yes, Google can absolutely potentially face legal liability for running an ad for an "abortion reversal pill", or ANY pill, when the evidence for the efficacy of this pill *as advertised* has not been established. THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE THE POLICY IN THE FIRST PLACE. So they don't get their butts sued by the FTC.
Your entire story here is full of lies all around.
So here is one possibility for what happened. You read the headline of your right-wing news article, you took it at face value, you made your claims here based only on the headline without actually reading the article or the letter, and now when you are called on it, since you are unable to admit you are wrong in front of me, you just continue to dig in even when it is plain that you are wrong.
But here is another possibility for what might have happened. You read the headline and the story and the letter, you knew full well what the actual facts of the matter are, but instead you choose to lie about it in order to frame Team Blue in the worst possible light because your hate for them is unbounded. You are pushing lies and narratives as the truth because the lies hurt Team Blue and the ends justify the means. You're a propagandist and nothing more.
Or a third possibility for what happened is that you really don't give a shit about any of this. You just come here to troll and troll, and occasionally to serve as Jesse's attack poodle when you white-knight for him.
So it could be any of those three, really.
Robert Corn-Revere has something in common with his ancestor, Paul. He's a little light in the belfry.
I see all the usual suspects are upset that their tribe is being revealed to be just as much of the censorious assholes that they claim the other tribe is being.
News: Democrats are being dumb.
Right-Wing Reason Crew: Look, everybody! I told you! They're evil!
News: Republicans are being dumb.
Right-Wing Reason Crew: How could you possibly focus on something this trivial? Don't you know that Democrats are evil???
As I said to the Master Baiter, you expect censorship and stupidity from Democrats. Republicans are supposed to be less emotional and more level headed. That's what makes it news.
Maybe 15 years ago that might have been the case. It hasn't been the case for a while now. Obama really broke the Republican Party. They banked everything they had on the claim that Obama was this radical Muslim socialist who was CLEARLY unfit to lead even a parade, let alone a nation, and they reasoned that Obama only won in 2008 because of his gauzy rhetoric, McCain's shitty campaign, and the crappy economy at the time. Clearly the American people would come to their senses and, once the economy was better, and people could clearly see what a radical piece of trash that he was after the ObamaCare disaster, they would toss him out. But when that didn't happen, and instead they RE-ELECTED him, that is when the wheels really fell off of the Republican Party. Ideas and principles went out the window, and it became entirely "do whatever it takes to win and take back OUR country from the blue state traitors who infest it". That is when the seeds of the modern culture war really started to germinate. That is when they really started weaponizing illegal immigration as not just a law enforcement issue but as a cultural CRISIS that required ROBUST action to stop the INVASION from electing more Obamas in the future. They have been hysterics for going on 10 years now.
I was listening to talk radio at the time, up until the day Trump won the Republican nomination. Up until then the hosts were honest about the people running, pointing out strengths and faults. Soon as he got the nomination he could literally do no wrong. The same questions they were asking the day before became verboten. We were always at war with Eastasia.
So I think there is some truth to what you're saying. However I think much of what you say describes the fringes, not the mainstream, of the Republican base.
It's really hard to say. I really don't know. I live in a Republican area, and have family who is reasonably Trump-y. Talking with them and just listening they openly admit to not liking Trump that much often enough. There's various reasons given for their support after that, from him being a chaos candidate, to him sticking up for the little guy type stuff, to whatever.
A lot of this gets washed out, because political conversation does tend to be pretty elite driven. Plus, we live in a country of 300+ million people, and so the variations of opinion that exist within that is pretty extreme.
I think the extremist talk is pretty reasonable though. The way primaries have changed seem to have led to a lot of our current situation.
"Up until then the hosts were honest about the people running,..."
Seriously, talk radio? GOP screamers sold soap by making politics a death match against domestic "enemies", not fellow citizens who disagreed.
I don't think we were listening to the same thing.
THAT is when the modern culture war really started to germinate? How old are you?
It started with the counterculture of the 1960s, that became the mainstream culture quickly through media, entertainment, and journalism. The Tea Party was the 2010-era counterculture. The wars continue, Trump constituted a rare victory from the right. But they're becoming less rare.
Hell, this is from 1992 and was a hugely famous "culture war" event:
https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/29-the-triumph-of-the-right/pat-buchanan-on-the-culture-war-1992/
Think it, Nixon won in 1968. WTF are you talking about?
The counterculture won the 60s even though Nixon won 68 & 72. Is there any documentary about the 60s that focuses on the crew cut guy who decided to go to the police academy?
I am talking about the CULTURE WARS (which was the topic, I thought), not Presidential election totals.
Did you miss this, you washed-up sack of shit?
It started with the counterculture of the 1960s, that became the mainstream culture quickly through media, entertainment, and journalism.
Not to mention academia, where most of your commie allies parked themselves after Kent State, and proceeded to inculcate the current quasi-religion of cultural marxism that exists there.
Thanks for pointing out my huge omission -- academia is the main place this sewage controls our culture.
Newt broke the GOP and ever since bi-partisan efforts in Congress disappeared and hyper partisan "hate the other side and take no prisoners" theatrics have ruled. They were appeased by the installation of the loser Bush in 2000, but picked up where they left off with Obama.
Newt broke the GOP and ever since bi-partisan efforts in Congress disappeared and hyper partisan "hate the other side and take no prisoners" theatrics have ruled.
Oh, fuck off. More bi-partisan shit got passed during Newt's tenure than at any point since the 2000 election.
> Republicans are supposed to be less emotional and more level headed.
Obviously you've never been part of a local Republican committee meeting...
Sure, that's how they have run Trump and Sarah Palin - less emotional and more level headed.
What bullshit
I said "supposed to." Ever since they elected a game show host I have a hard time taking them seriously.
Self-induced abortions are dangerous and irresponsible.
Someone who wants to ban books on dangerous procedures like “self-induced abortions” is not a libertarian, but they are certainly not an “asshole”.
Most Americans are either statist conservatives or statist progressives. And from their point of view, libertarianism is an untested and unproven ideology. You’re not going to change their minds by insulting them.
People like you are the biggest enemies of libertarianism.
Yes we know.
YOUR team's attempts at censorship are well-meaning.
THEIR team's attempts at censorship are evil and authoritarian.
We get it.
I see your problem: you are incapable of keeping two concepts apart.
Concept 1: “I think X is evil.”
Concept 2: “I think government should ban X.”
Nowhere did I say that there should be laws against either having abortions or against publishing such instructions. I simply think that such women and publishers are morally reprehensible.
You forget culpable. This isn't like a cookbook for explosives that can be used in a multitude of ways, this has one and only one purpose.
If they're going after directories of legal services in other locations then by all means go at them but DIIY abortions are beyond the pale.
Libertarianism untested??? What was Thermopolyae, The Magna Carta, William Wallace and The Picts rising up, The Peasant's War, The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights, the abolition of slavery and Jim Crow, women's equality, LGBTQ+ Liberation, bringing down The Wall in Berlin, and every other incident in history where men sought freedom and defied tyranny??? Chopped liver???
I'd say Libertarianism is thoroughly-tested, approved by any being with a shred of sapience and has worked like a son-of-a-bitch wherever, whenever, and to the degree it has ever been tried!
Da fuq's wrong with you???
I see. So you think that because of the Magna Carta, everybody has to fall in line behind every “right” and “liberty” you and Chemjeff pull out of your asses? That the Magna Carta established that abortion should be unquestionably legal? You’re insane.
This is one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.
Taking a combination of approved medications to cause an abortion prior to 10 weeks is not dangerous or irresponsible. If the content told people to use that method after 10 weeks, it should be labeled dangerous.
Reason is taking the L pretty hard.
Well, yeah, if they don't take the L good and hard, how are all those battered women supposed to know that Reason really loves them?
I will keep contesting that this is a L for libertarians at all.
Ok, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the entity Reason
"The National Right to Life Committee (NLRC) has drafted model legislation..."
Call when they actually get that into an actual bill before a state legislature.
https://www.scstatehouse.gov/sess124_2021-2022/bills/1373.htm
It is a virtual copy of the NRLC model legislation.
Do communities have the right to choose their standards?
Only if they are the "approved" standards.
"Communities" don't have rights, individuals do.
And individuals don't have a right to tell other individuals what to do with their own property, provided that there is no violation of the NAP occurring.
So I have a right to set a standard for appropriate behavior on my property. I also have a right to try to persuade my neighbors to adopt this same standard. And if we all voluntarily and mutually agree for this common standard for our property, then that is not because of some "community" right, that is because of the affirmative consent of the individual property owners.
A state in which the state only guarantees individual rights is a communist dictatorship.
Again, da fuq is your problem???
You and Chemjeff need to reflect on what your problem is. You claim to be libertarians, but you want to impose government on others that they don’t want to be governed by.
Tell me, should the federal government just impose those “individual liberties” you like on Oklahoma, or should we occupy foreign states as well? I mean, don’t Iranians, Germans, and Afghans “deserve” the same liberties?
So HOA's are illegal in your view?
How about noise ordinances, public decency rules? Lets hear just how far free association actually covers.
If only Democrats had spent the last 50 years crafting a legislative compromise.
What, and give up the biggest inspiration for (D) votes and contributions?
When 'Pro-Life' Becomes 'Pro-Censorship'
Remember when antifa was threatening to burn down stores carrying Andy Ngo's book?
That's not censorship because Mitch McConnell didn't suggest it. Or something.
Resist! vs. sedition, silly.
Yeah, that antifa is a really popular group.
It is on your side of the argument.
They missed Ollies, but Shhhhh... 😉
The Pro- Choice crowd has a new spokes
womanerbirthing-personerunmommiehttps://youtu.be/tUkE9qaVgmo
Too sensible, not enough blue hair.
I'm surprised that no one is writing pro-life and pro-cis-gender books and trying to get them placed in public and school libraries. It'd be interesting to see what the Liberals would do.
Claim they are hate speech and double standard them out of existance.
My experience is that you can still find prolife books in public libraries, I don't know about "transphobic" books.
Reason's bizarre need to generate and push the "right-wingers are banning books and pushing censorship" narrative is really impressive at this point.
Is the left's authoritarianism and actual censorship so much that this level of media intervention is needed by Reason to try and deflect as much attention away as possible?
Well, if you understand that Reason Editors are not Libertarians but far left progressives, this makes perfect sense. They're pushing the progressive narrative because, they are progressive.
As a pro-lifer myself, I just have to shake my head at the rest of the pro-life movement who seem determined to alienate everyone on the planet but the authoritarian fetishists.
Traditional conservatives agree with progressives on the idea that it is the state’s job to impose values, promote good behavior, and punish bad behavior. I don’t see anything to be embarrassed about beliefs shared by probably more than 95% of the population.
Any attempt to argue for liberty and libertarianism needs to start with understanding this basic fact about humanity and US society.
Are you saying 95% of the population believes that one state should be able to prosecute people in another state for violating abortion law if that abortion is perfectly legal in the state it takes place in? I think 95% of people don't want that. Red state folks would have a hissy fit if New York started prosecuting people who go to Texas to shoot at targets using guns without the training and certifications required in New York.
No, I am saying that 95% of the population are statist, and in fact, nationalist statists (they want all the rules imposed at the federal level). That statism manifests in many different forms among both conservatives and among progressives.
I’m not even criticizing either side for that. I am criticizing people like Brandybuck for arguing and reasoning as if 95% of the country gives a fuck whether he calls them “authoritarian fetishists”.
If you want to make this country more libertarian, get your act together and start changing people’s minds rather than constantly engaging in self-righteous indignation.
But that's not true. Why is this issue so hard for the crazy left and ardent right.
The vast majority of people want abortion to be allowed within some period within the first trimester and than restricted after that.
Why is this simple solution so ardently fought against?
I still get a kick out of reading posts from Europeans who have no understanding why this is such a huge issue in the US.
Listen: re-read my comment. Where did I say anything about abortion specifically?
I’m pointing out that 95% of Americans disagree with Brandybuck’s premise that being an “authoritarian fetishist” is bad. Whether red or blue, whether conservative or progressives, whether pro-life or pro-choice, almost everybody in this country is not libertarian.
As for Europeans, they have accepted this compromise position because their government told them to. Europeans are nearly 100% authoritarian fetishists, and unlike Americans, Europeans aren’t even capable of independent political thought.
Honestly, watching the pro-life movement and pro-choice movement has been fascinating. They both seem determined to alienate everyone on the planet except their radicals.
Robert, if self-induced abortion instructions titillate you like pornography does, there’s something really wrong with you; you need to seek help.
This is also a tempest in a teapot since, as you observe, the 1A protects such speech, disgusting and harmful as it may be.
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251759/catholic-church-in-bethesda-maryland-set-on-fire-tabernacle-desecrated
Firey, but mostly peaceful, church burnings.
Yea- I think you forgot about all the abortion clinic bombings and shootings. I don't think 'pro-lifers' are without their crazies.
It's 2022, not 1990
"birth control advocate Margaret Sanger"
Yeah she attempted to control births alright. Please describe her appropriately. She was a racist Eugenicist.
Hitler and Himmler were noted in birth control advocates in the exact same vein.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4
T Roosevelt, Thomas Edison, many judges... See Michael Crichton's explanation on how climate pseudoscience and eugenics are related (In State of Fear). One was popular then, the other now, and great effort goes into pretending most American (and foreign) politicians, preachers, scientist-impersonators and blowhards NEVER worshipped Eugenics... until the spring of 1945.
Automatic reaction:
Mention of birth control -> Magaret Sanger bad Nazi.
She was a racist Eugenicist. She also was an early advocate of birth control. Birth control is a good thing (unless you are some sort of Catholic theocrat crazy).
https://twitter.com/HelpKeepWatch/status/1546483949526028290?t=vmeUrPbWTnsI-AP_-OmCAw&s=19
We are The Watch
A community watch fighting racism in gaming, starting with @CallofDuty [video]
We're on a mission to create a gaming community where everyone feels welcome
And no one has to hear racist language while they play
Be an ally in the fight against racism in gaming
Together we can get game developers to take real action
Help fight racism in gaming:
1) Watch streamers playing Call of Duty on Twitch
2) If you hear racist language in the background of the stream, clip it using Twitch’s built-in clip function
3) DM us a link of the clip on Twitter @HelpKeepWatch to make an anonymous submission
The end game:
We want Activision and other game developers to come to the table and work with us to make getting racism out of gaming a top priority. This means more transparent reporting, tougher enforcement for in-game racism, and regular engagement with community members.
The goal is to show game developers how widespread racist language is in their games. We don’t want to target any gamers individually and are asking all submissions to be DM’d to us so no bullying takes place. Let’s come together as a community to get racism out of gaming.
We're on a mission to create a gaming community where everyone feels welcome
When a group of gamers want to make something "for everyone" they literally mean they don't want it to be for everyone.
The only way to have an inclusive community is to exclude everyone we don't like
They're simply parroting what Marcuse proposed.
"We're on a mission to create a gaming community where everyone* feels welcome"
*everyone exept "racist," definition of "racist" is subject to change. Individual results may vary.
If you voted for Trump, you're a racist... therefore...
I'm a bit behind the times, all I know is that Mario Bros dabbles in Italian stereotypes, and is most assuredly biased against turtles.
The nuances are a bit more complex than the article suggests, since it's not self-evident that advertising for chop shops or hit men (hitpersons?) are protected by the 1st Amendment. Likewise for *illegal* abortions.
It would hardly be surprising that in 1975, when Roe was in force, the court found a right to advertise for abortions. Would they do the same now that Roe v. Wade has itself been aborted?
Now as to Comstock. It's perfectly true that he was a zealous crusader who helped put teeth into the federal postal-obscenity law. But again, a little nuance would help:
First, Congress passed an anti-postal-obscenity law in 1865, before Comstock's activism. Comstock came in trying to enforce this law, and he got Congress to plug some loopholes in 1873 (IIRC, banning obscene periodicals as well as books).
Also, who funded Comstock? The list of his sponsors looked like a Who's Who of wealthy philanthropists who saw anti-obscenity crusades as similar to other moral reforms.
And how did Comstock's victims (if you want to use that term) get convicted? By verdicts of jurors who agreed with Comstock that the material under consideration was obscene.
So there was a broader public support for the Comstock Law than one might think from the standard narrative of one weird guy going around imposing his personal preferences on a whole nation.
Comstock made an easy target of course, he was a publicity hound and indeed he made sure the law was vigorously enforced (often owing to his personal initiative) after several previous years of tepid enforcement.
But in libertarian terms, he had plenty of "collaborators," including large swathes of the public.
Also, *most* of Comstock's opponents focused on protecting medical textbooks and what the critics considered serious literature and established classics. There were a few proto-liberaltarians who spoke up for defending *all* obscenity, but in those days the respectable opposition said that certain targeted works (the aforesaid textbooks, Boccacio, Ulysses) were not obscene at all and illustrated overreach.
Robert Corn-Revere is correct. Mystical bigots of yore sought so censor all mention of libertarian firebrands urging that blacks or women ought to be free from coercion:
"Well, then," said Clayton, "would it not be well to repeal the laws which forbid the slaves to learn to read, and put the Scriptures into their hands? These laws are the cause of a great deal of misery and immorality among the slaves, and they furnish abolitionists with some of their strongest arguments."
"Oh," said father Bonnie, "that will never do, in the world! It will expose them to whole floods of abolition and incendiary documents, corrupt their minds, and make them discontented." Dred, Harriet Beecher Stowe, 1856. (Similarly, the Roe plank got yanked from the Libertarian platform.)
Meanwhile Elizabeth Warren (a sitting US Senator) wants to punish Crisis Pregnancy Centers. But do tell me, how the pro-life people are the censors.
And today it's Right-Side PROJECTION day....
Pro-Life has no reason to be part of the right-side. It's counter-intelligence to their LIMITED government platform.
And as it is utterly obvious they protest just like the LEFT does; with emotions and endless PUSHING for [WE] mob Gov-Gun Power!!
There couldn't be a better leftard crowd mentality 101; sadly sucked up by sheeple minds of the right.
American Civics teachers, in high school and college, need to start teaching the difference between American style freedom of/from religion versus foreign style theocracy (using government to impose one’s religious interpretation onto the rest of us).
America was created following a Revolutionary War fighting against this foreign style theocracy (or unconstitutional authoritarianism). Many of today’s Republicans support this foreign model of nanny-state government.
It only makes sense that this foreign style theocratic nanny-state would also support censorship, since theocrats don’t respect individual rights or small limited government. The opposite of Republican’s rhetoric.
Progressives can win some battles by pointing out that this theocratic perspective would also outlaw IVF (in vitro fertilization, death penalty and optional war) - also banned by the Bible. The First Amendment and Article VI (Section 3) prohibit religious tests for members of Congress. They are free to attend church on their private time but not to legislate their religious interpretation at taxpayer expense.
"after several weeks"
the problem is that not everyone agrees where the line is..... the standard across the country was right about where the majority of people drew the line until roe fell, and where a small minority of people draw the line is somehow where many states are now drawing the line.
12 weeks is where a majority of Americans draw that line, not minutes before birth like the pro-abortion extremists insist.
the majority actually draw the line closer to 20weeks. the 12 weeks comes from a deliberate misrepresentation of a loaded poll question. (almost everyone supports abortions in the first trimester, while cutting that support during the second trimester.... 20weeks being in the middle of that..... the the 12 week number comes from asking the question about the entire second trimester without understanding that people support abortion part way into it while they don't support abortion through the whole thing.)
20weeks is where we were... it is where most people are comfortable... and it is where 99% of abortions were already before it.....
No pun intended but you could split the baby at 15 weeks. It would be every state is legal with zero restrictions up to 15 weeks, then only with a valid reason (rape, incest, life of mother, life of fetus, severe developmental disabilities).