The Supreme Court's Dobbs Decision Threatens Assisted Reproduction
IVF at "significant risk"

More than 73,000 babies were born in the U.S. by means of in vitro fertilization (IVF) techniques in 2020, slightly more than 2 percent of all births that year. About 85 percent of children born as a result of IVF procedures in this country are born from thawed embryos. Since 1987, more than 1 million Americans started their lives as embryos created outside of their mother's bodies. By one estimate, as many as 1.4 million embryos remain frozen at U.S. fertility clinics.
It is not clear what effect the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization will have on would-be parents seeking to use IVF as a way to have children. The majority opinion states that abortion destroys "potential life" and what the Mississippi statute at issue in the case calls an "unborn human being." It does not, however, mention IVF or other assisted reproduction techniques.
Infertility advocates and practitioners of fertility medicine are, nevertheless, concerned about the long-term implications of the Dobbs decision. In an article in Contemporary OB/GYN, Jared Robins and Sean Tipton, respectively the executive director and the chief policy and advocacy officer of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, argue that the Dobbs decision puts fertility care at "significant risk." Under current practice, patients of IVF clinics generally choose to create numerous embryos for possible implantation. As fertility treatments proceed, embryos are often discarded when pre-implantation genetic diagnosis indicates significant inheritable maladies or after patients have completed their families.
As an example of post-Dobbs risks, Robins and Tipton point to Nebraska's Legislative Bill 933 which declares that an "unborn child means an individual living member of the species homo sapiens, throughout the embryonic and fetal stages of development from fertilization to full gestation and childbirth." They assert that "this bill clearly classifies an IVF-created embryo as an unborn child." Under the Nebraska bill, "causing or abetting the termination of the life of an unborn child" is a Class IIA felony, punishable by up 20 years in prison.
An op-ed in The New England Journal of Medicine also notes that users of IVF services who have completed their families generally choose to destroy their unused frozen embryos. "If these embryos are declared human lives by the stroke of a governor's pen, their destruction may be outlawed," observes the op-ed. "What will be the fate of abandoned embryos, of the people who 'abandon' them, and more broadly of IVF centers in these jurisdictions?"
Writing in the Journal of the American Medical Association, two legal scholars and a doctor observe that with respect to using IVF to treat infertility, "a future Supreme Court opinion might easily group embryo destruction as more like abortion because of its involvement with the destruction of 'potential life.'" They add that the Supreme Court might more easily decide to prohibit IVF because it would not involve "a countervailing claim to a woman's gestational bodily autonomy."
In their more sanguine analysis of how the Dobbs decision could affect IVF treatments over at The Washington Post, three political scientists note that since 2010, 45 of the 83 bills mentioning both abortion and IVF introduced or passed by state legislatures have explicitly exempted IVF and assisted reproductive technologies. The political reluctance to ban IVF may be based on the fact that most Americans are in favor of allowing people to use it. A 2013 poll found that only 12 percent of respondents thought IVF to be morally wrong. (Of course, the fact that a majority of Americans believe that decisions about terminating a pregnancy should be left to a woman and her doctor didn't prevent Roe v. Wade from being overturned.)
Given the number of embryos destroyed as a side effect of IVF treatments, Lehigh University bioethicist Dena Davis sought to analyze in her 2006 article, "The Puzzle of IVF," why there was so little anti-IVF activism on the part of the pro-life movement. She starkly concluded:
The continued hostility toward abortion, even to the earliest form of possible abortion embodied in emergency contraception, coupled with the absence of attacks on IVF, can best be described as a relative indifference to the moral status of the embryo, but rather a great deal of hostility toward economic equality of women, sexual activity outside of marriage, and marriages that are not organized along traditional gender lines. When conservative activists see abortion, they see the destruction of embryos, yes, but they also see women who are insisting on their equality in the workplace and on marriages that are not organized around strong gender roles. When conservatives see IVF, they largely ignore the destruction of embryos, because they see heterosexual married couples going to great lengths to have children. Thus, it appears that the crucial variable in the equation is not the destruction of the embryo, but the behavior and roles and possibilities open to women. Anti-abortion activists claim to be motivated purely by concern for the unborn, but in fact they are motivated primarily by concerns for the shape of society and for the preservation of traditional gender roles.
Davis' conclusion was somewhat vindicated during the debate last month over Alabama's new anti-abortion law, the stated goal of which is to "protect the sanctity of unborn life." When bill sponsor state Sen. Clyde Chambliss (R) was asked how the law would affect IVF labs that discarded embryos, he responded, "The egg in the lab doesn't apply. It's not in a woman. She's not pregnant."
"We believe that without the protection of Roe v Wade, state lawmakers now have an open door to introduce far-reaching legislation that will create barriers for people to access medical procedures like IVF (emphasis theirs)," declared RESOLVE: The National Infertility Association in a statement. "Not only do people have the right to create embryos, but they are the only ones who have the right to determine what happens to their embryos." Post-Dobbs, this may not be the case for much longer in some states.
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Is this where we spin out of control and start to suggest that the Roe decision affects penis size?
The only way to do assisted reproduction is with intensive scaremongering about 0.02% bad outcomes, mass testing of the entire population regardless of their reproductive status, centralized/government tracking of everyone who tests positive for signs of being able to reproduce, rejection of generic or natural fertility aids (such as organizing around ovulation), and mandating the entire population (men, woman, children) take experimental reproduction drugs or face banishment from society.
We'll call it: Plan Bailey
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I think it's pretty much always worthwhile to bring up the law of unintended consequences. And I think this one is a more reasonable outcome than Nick's the other day. I just still have a hard time viewing Supreme Court decisions in Consequentialist terms. I don't mind viewing the legislature in that way though, and thus am open to these concerns and the one expressed by Tucille about the difficulty of even enforcing laws.
I think there is a win-win solution: declare Elon Musk the custodial parent of all the abandoned embryos. Then require him to take his progeny to Mars at the earliest practical time.
After a little consideration he will realize the opportunity it presents and then use that human stock, for which he has parental authority for at least 18 years to colonize Mars.
Or he could declare Martian law allows him to deep space the embryos and just collect the foster parenting stipend for the period he had custody.
I think I may need another bourbon or two to fully flesh out the details.
Brilliant! I want Terry Gilliam to make the movie.
Well said.
Similarly, this portion of Bailey's article is a non sequitur:
"The political reluctance to ban IVF may be based on the fact that most Americans are in favor of allowing people to use it. A 2013 poll found that only 12 percent of respondents thought IVF to be morally wrong. (Of course, the fact that a majority of Americans believe that decisions about terminating a pregnancy should be left to a woman and her doctor didn't prevent Roe v. Wade from being overturned.)"
Well, yes, Because the "political reluctance" referenced here concerns legislation. One hopes that Supreme Court rulings aren't made by the justices by consulting opinion polls.
Headline: The Supreme Court's Dobbs Decision Threatens Assisted Reproduction: IVF at "significant risk"
4th sentence: It is not clear what effect the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization will have on would-be parents seeking to use IVF as a way to have children.
I think that says all you need to know about the seriousness of this article...
Sometimes I think that chemJeffy is the target audience, articles with statements like that affirm my belief.
I'll remind you that he utterly buys into climate change. So it's expected.
The headline is the click-bait. The article is the typical Reason quibble fest.
In vitro fertilization isn't a right either.
Perhaps this could be addressed through state legistlation......DUHHHHHHHHHHHH!
It doesn’t affect members only…
the only thing the ruling threatens is Planned Barrenhood's revenue stream. Try to keep up and not shoot blanks, Ronald.
It's... it's just this war... and that lying sonofabitch Johnson!
Was that another phallic reference?
Did someone say Richard?
Blue state taxpayers will make up the difference.
Is this a joke?
...will it have an effect on climate change?
The joke is on all who have humility and common sense!
"R" Party is Our Party is the GOOD party! The Party of the Sex Pistols and the Sex Postals, with which you may go Postal with your Sex Pistol, and rape or deceive ALL the young babes, your "binders full of young women", whose binders bind them to be womb-slaves, and then MAKE them carry to term, their Sacred Fartilized Egg Smells! All Hail the Every Sperm Which Is Sacred!
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Press conference: Biden blames inflation on Dobbs.
Well, if you had Putin's pectoralis major, you can understand why Biden feels threatened. To offset Putin's bulging pecs, NPR reports that Biden's, Assistant Health Secretary, Dr
RalphRachel Levine, is pregnant and expecting twins! Hunter is on hand to pass out crack pipes to celebrateDahyum, I never thought the Left would be an endless source of memes yet here we are!
NPR reports that Biden's, Assistant Health Secretary and The Babylon Bee's Man Of The Year, Dr Rachel Levine,
FIFY
That actually happened.. believe it was wapo that called abortion an economic benefit.
I can't help but laugh at the Bee's headline every time I read it:
"Trump 'I Did That' Stickers Appear On Nation's Shuttered Planned Parenthoods"
Oooh, that hurts, but I bet their are plenty of volunteers to scrape them off.
But I will point out out that 3 of the 6 justices that reversed Roe, and birthed Bruen were appointed by one George Bush or another. And the other 3 were guaranteed confirmation by Mitch McConnell. None of them are as consistently conservative as I like, but let's at least acknowledge 'Rinos' are at least living on the same planet we are. And are probably almost as happy about Bruen and Dobbs as we are, except perhaps Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, but I doubt Joe Manchin is wearing black this week.
We believe that without the protection of Roe v Wade, state lawmakers now have an open door to introduce far-reaching legislation that will create barriers for people to access medical procedures like IVF (emphasis theirs)
The fertility rate has been in free fall since the 1950s. But now people are worried about reproduction?
damn, you folks are a bunch of drama queens.
If there's one thing conservatives are against, it's motherhood. The Roe decision was a stealth way of taking babies away from mothers.
Conservatives want to simultaneously force women to reproduce and stop them from reproducing. Science!
And to be fair, progressive women want to stop women from reproducing. Abortion seems superfluous at this point.
Hey Reason, this is how it's done:
And she thought she should share that story?
She does not come off looking like a good person in any aspect of it.
Appearing on Howard Stern, everybody's annoying granny, seems like a bad idea in and of itself.
And the 13th amendment threatened the southern cotton crop. So what?
Is that a code word for black employment?
What terrible number take are we up to?
However much money Gates has, plus one hundred.
Objection, your Honor! Speculative, assumes facts not in evidence.
And, oh by the way;
It is perfectly clear what effect the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization will have on would-be parents seeking to use IVF as a way to have children.
It would be whatever the state legislature passes into law.
And the only one that I'm aware of that would actually ban it is Oklahoma, as theirs is absolute. All the others have some form of time-based allowance, and IVF is far before even the 6-week mark that Texas put out.
Texas has a "trigger law" that will go into effect 30-days post-Dobbs and ban abortion throughout pregnancy, with exception for risk to mother of death or substantial bodily impairment. Text of it can be found here - https://capitol.texas.gov/billlookup/Text.aspx?LegSess=87R&Bill=HB1280
Here's however, how the Texas law defines abortion:
"Abortion means the act of using or prescribing an instrument, a
drug, a medicine, or any other substance, device, or means with the
intent to cause the death of an unborn child of a woman known to be pregnant. The term does not include birth control devices or oral contraceptives. An act is not an abortion if the act is done with the intent to:
(A) save the life or preserve the health of an unborn child;
(B) remove a dead, unborn child whose death was caused by spontaneous abortion; or
(C) remove an ectopic pregnancy."
Its definition of pregnant is "the female human reproductive
condition of having a living unborn child within the female ’s body during the entire embryonic and fetal stages of the unborn child ’s development from fertilization until birth."
So the Texas law clearly won't prevent destruction of IVF embryos that haven't been implanted, because these don't qualify as "the unborn child of a woman known to be pregnant".
So easy! So cut-and-dried! But what if...
-One twin died spontaneously?
-The baby is still alive, but the mom has sepsis from premature rupture of membranes?
-18wk anatomy scan show anencephaly- no babies born with this defect survive outside the womb?
The mom's life doesn't matter to the state of Texas- just the ideological bullshit matters. I doubt anyone reading this or anyone on here has given birth, though, so I know I'm screaming into the void.
Oklahoma has a similar definition of abortion as the Texas trigger law, referencing a "female known to be pregnant", so it would *not* prevent destruction of non-implanted IVF embryos:
" "Abortion" means the use or prescription of any instrument, medicine, drug, or any other substance or device intentionally to terminate the pregnancy of a female known to be pregnant with an intention other than to increase the probability of a live birth, to preserve the life or health of the child after live birth, to remove an ectopic pregnancy, or to remove a dead unborn child who died as the result of a spontaneous miscarriage, accidental trauma, or a criminal assault on the pregnant female or her unborn child."
https://casetext.com/statute/oklahoma-statutes/title-63-public-health-and-safety/chapter-1-oklahoma-public-health-code/article-7-hospitals-and-related-facilities/abortion/section-1-730-definitions
Maybe, just maybe, the fertility clinics could choose to use less ethically dubious standard operating procedures to create their product? Their methods to create embryos seems technologically primitive after 50 some years, and are done merely because it is easier for the clinics.
I would say, a large part of this is few people know about how IVF is done and fertility do not exactly trumpet their practices to the general public. On the other hand, when Bush put a ban on using discarded for experiments seems that there was some acknowledgment of the embryos status, though it was then suggested they were in permanent suspended animation.
We really need an edit button.
Mickey, you beat me to it. I'll also leave this here:
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/features/nation-s-fertility-clinics-struggle-growing-number-abandoned-embryos-n1040806
That discusses what was becoming a crisis in 2019- thousands of embryos being abandoned at fertility clinics. A couple of key points:
1) The clinics themselves are deeply worried that if they destroy the abandoned embryos, it will be a wrongful death suit.
2) In countries like Germany and Italy, there are already laws preventing the creation of many embryos at one time, in order to avoid exactly the problem that Bailey is fretting about.
3) It is noteworthy that parents choose to abandon their embryos rather than actively tell the clinic to destroy them.
Make it legal to sell the embryos to couples who want them?
The Thirteenth Amendment abolished chattel slavery. We don't sell people anymore.
It abolished slavery. It did not abolish chattel status for humans.
chat·tel
[ˈCHadl]
NOUN
(in general use) a personal possession.
synonyms:
asset · thing · article · item owned · belongings · things · property · worldly goods · goods · personal effects · effects · stuff · assets · accoutrements · [more]
law
an item of property other than real estate. See also goods and chattels.
synonyms:
property · possessions · personal possessions · personal effects · effects · worldly goods · chattels · goods and chattels · valuables · accoutrements · appurtenances · paraphernalia · trappings · rubbish
You are an idiot.
The hell we don't. Do you know how much it costs to adopt a child?
Make it legal to sautee the embryos with a little garlic and olive oil, and serve them as a cocktail party hors d'oeuvre?
Every time I think I have seen the worst take on this, another Reason writer is all 'Hold my beer'.
It is Bailey, of course he was going to write something completely effed up logically.
But he does it in the name of Science, so that makes it reasonable.
I think this is a more reasonable argument then Nick's yesterday.
Nick, wow, I hadn't noticed the byline and was trying to figure who had gotten that hysterical. Nick would have been about my last choice. I had trouble deciphering anything rational from it -- even Breyer would have thrown it out for not passing the rational basis test.
Yes, this is at least plausible and sanely written, after a fashion, but it starts with the assumption that a law's constitutionality should be based on its utility, unrelated to the rule of law and definitely more authoritarian than libertarian. Stick to your carbon nonsense, Ron, leave the libertarian stuff to someone else.
"but it starts with the assumption that a law's constitutionality should be based on its utility,"
Yep. And this is hardly the first or only time where the 'libertarian' writers at Reason approach an issue from a Utilitarian perspective focused on outcomes.
That's not how liberty works.
Dude, that's a low bar.
The Supreme Court's Dobbs Decision Threatens Assisted ReproductionRon Bailey Redefines IVF As Abortion
it does result in the destruction of embryos. might be a stretch to imagine much in the way of enforcement, but it does underscore the "big fat liar" aspect of everyone who ever utters the words "at the moment of conception." either you really want to protect all life, or you are forced to admit that what you really want is to control women.
Except the singular goal of IVF is to produce one or more births and the singular goal of abortion is to prevent one.
the end result of IVF is dozens of embryos that will be thrown out. if Abortion is wrong for killing one fetus, then IVF is 10 times worse...
but then, the goal of pro-lifers isn't actually protecting the life of the fetus, it is forcing the woman to stay pregnant. it is to force women to give birth. all the BS about protecting the fetus as a unique life is complete and utter BS if you can ignore the millions and millions of leftover fetuses from IVF.
if protecting life is the real goal, you protect all the fetuses. if controlling women is the goal, you force them to give birth. if IVF is OK because there is one born, then anything you ever say about protecting life is a lie.
Of course, except for the most hardcore anti-abortionist (and retarded politicians), most people are fine with stuff like Plan B and abortion up to a certain point.
Hell, even the heart beat bans still technically allow for abortion of embryos.
the end result of IVF is dozens of embryos that will be thrown out. if Abortion is wrong for killing one fetus, then IVF is 10 times worse...
Are you saying this like you actually want to preserve as many lives as possible or are you trying to borrow someone else's morals to defend the killing of fetuses?
You retards didn't seem to learn anything about the progressing definition of 'viability'. You'd think, as progressives trying to claim some scruples, you'd learn a thing or two about progress rather than trying to erect your new house of principles on a new foundation of sand. If IVF produces one embryo that leads to one birth, it's successful *and* within any given law. Unless your stance is an, uh, principled, 'any unwanted birth is a violation of abortion rights', you'd recognize that pro-lifers are being more pragmatic than yourself about the imposition of their morals.
Sorry mad, but the earliest a fetus can survive birth is 24 weeks with 22 possible but not advised. Both these dates don't imply no problems later. So there is a limit to the admittedly wondrous advances of science even with the most expensive and high tech (read impractical) practices.
Ow address the oft heard claim among anti-abortion proponents that life begins at conception. Are you pretending that claim is rare and they are just kidding? We can only hope so of course but keep in mind that miscarriages occur early (and often) enough that the woman doesn't even know it happened. So much for whether God or nature GAF about the unborn. You're not interested in science, you're interested in the religious imposing their beliefs on everyone else and making women passive vessels for them.
You aren't sorry. You're a soulless NPC that doesn't actually have any morals that you can understand to guide you nor can keep up with or even perceive the progress of medical science and the world around you unless fed the information by your handlers. You merely ape the behaviors of more sentient beings than yourself in the hopes of appearing equally intelligent and self-aware.
There will, at some point, be viable humans grown from embryos without a biological womb. We've already made great strives improving the viability of test animals with the technology. Even if there aren't the notion that "We can't be a free society unless we're grinding up as many fertilized embryos as possible." is still absurdly untenable. There may be a case that the government shouldn't interfere with the processing of excess embryos but, given the abundance of generally unaware AIs like yourself, the only way "If it even saves one life." doesn't play here and does play with regard to gun control, traffic safety, public health, pandemics, welfare, etc., etc., etc. is if you just really want to grind up embryos. And you may want to grind up embryos according to your programming or be entirely ambivalent but, eventually, your handlers will see taking the extra effort and expending the extra resources producing excess embryos only to toss them in the trash as a waste.
"Are you saying this like you actually want to preserve as many lives as possible or are you trying to borrow someone else's morals to defend the killing of fetuses?"
neither. i am pointing out that the claimed morality of those who want all out bans on abortion is complete BS. you said yourself that IVF was OK because it created a birth, even though it kills more fetuses.... you don't care about the fetus at all, you just want to force women to give birth. you sit here and try to pretend you have morals and principles, but you are lying out your ass.
also, i didn't say anything about viability at all. i am only pointing out the lie that those who want all out bans can't admit they are telling. you could not care less about the fetus, as long as the women are doing what you think they should. (and none of you "principled" people have any problem violating their rights or using the jack boots of government to force them to.)
i am pointing out that the claimed morality of those who want all out bans on abortion is complete BS
Insisting your enemies are morally obligated to execute their perfect plan rather than sticking with the current plan that's actually viable is a bigger pile of more disingenuous bullshit. Unless you have a moral imperative to generate as much bullshit as possible.
this isn't insisting you are obligated to execute some perfect plan, it is demonstrating that you are completely full of shit.
if protecting life at the moment it is created was your goal, you would be as violently opposed to IVF as you were are to abortion. even if not a priority, there is no way in hell you would consider it OK. you would not try to dismiss it as OK to kill the leftover fetuses because one birth is created......because, the lives of the fetuses was never what you cared about..... you are not failing to perfectly execute your plan, you are exposing the fact that your claimed morality is a lie.
Actually, end one, not prevent one.
End a pregnancy, prevent a birth.
Or pro-life people have been against these practices for decades. As was mentioned above, several European countries have laws against this method.
There's fake hypocrisy through willful misinterpretation, and then there is just making stuff up. You've drifted into the latter.
your comment might not sound so stupid if i was not literally on a thread where the other person is demonstrating exactly the kind of hypocrisy described...... AFTER the point where the other person explicitly said they were OK with IVF because it results in a birth, regardless of what happens to the leftover fetuses. what you want to claim is made up was demonstrated before your dumb ass decided to chime in.
There's fake hypocrisy through willful misinterpretation, and then there is just making stuff up. You've drifted into the latter.
I'd say it's a difference without a distinction. If I believed Foo_dd actually believed in either saving human lives or sticking to some sort of principle, I might be inclined to see a slim difference. But Foo_dd doesn't, so he's just a slightly more intelligent monkey flinging shit from his cage.
Bzzzzt! Wrong conclusion.
A 20 year supply.
One solution (not seriously presented, but given the level of thought demonstrated so far): Require that all the extra embryos be eventually offered to others to implant, and kept indefinitely in a freezer until someone uses them - or a power failure, a floor cleaning crew plugging into the same circuit and overloading the breaker, or other "act of God" accidentally unfreezes them. Then you can toss them in a dumpster.
Much ado about nothing.
This is a state issue that will be resolved on a state-by-state basis based on the elected representatives in those states. Some states will have better and more thought-out laws than others.
Isn't this a free market solution to an issue that should never have been national?
You're being exceptionally callous to all of the poor and minority women that are going to be forced to travel to another state in order to undergo IVF.
Roberts opened the door to a PENALTAX on people to knowingly give birth to children with birth defects.
Did I do that correctly?
This has to be the third or fourth article where a Reason writer constructs an article thusly, "Since I don't like the (often imagined and theoretical) consequences of recognizing the rights of an unborn child, it must not have these rights."
I wish that just once, the writers would take the stance, "Since we now recognize the rights of an unborn child, how can we reconcile that principle with libertarian values."
Logically speaking, if an embryo has rights, then highly risky medical procedures (like CRISPR Gene Editing) and IVR are probably unethical. And creating many embryos under the expectation that one shall live and others be destroyed, is callous and cruel.
But so what? Harvesting the organs of young children is also callous and cruel. We don't allow it, and yet somehow the national medical industry is still able to effectively advance in research and development year over year.
Yes, brought to its logical conclusion, the IVF industry is going to need to make some serious changes to how they work. If they would take the time to actually think about how they might do this work in a way that doesn't violate the sanctity of unborn lives, we might figure a way out of this.
This has to be the third or fourth article where a Reason writer constructs an article thusly, "Since I don't like the (often imagined and theoretical) consequences of recognizing the rights of an unborn child, it must not have these rights." since the overturn of Roe v. Wade.
Between government shutdowns, bathroom panics, and abortion, Reason's been hewing pretty close to the "Since I don't like the (often imagined and theoretical) consequences of..." style guide since Obama, to be sure.
and abortion
Derp. And *immigration*.
I wish that just once, the writers would take the stance, "Since we now recognize the rights of an unborn child, how can we reconcile that principle with libertarian values."
That would require having libertarian values which it appears none of the Reason writers have.
"This has to be the third or fourth article where a Reason writer constructs an article thusly, "
This is SOP for practically everything at Reason. They equate "my desired outcomes" with "liberty" and work their way backwards from what it is that they want.
Kinder gentler statism.
"statism"! Dude, you're celebrating the state climbing into the womb of every child bearing age woman in the country. WTF are you thinking?
"Unborn children", especially embryos, do not have rights and never will, even in Mississippi. A pregnant woman and unborn fetus are as one until birth and that is a logical principle you can't get past, try as you might to satisfy your magical belief system that a fertilized egg is a baby.
No, wrong verb or noun, take your pick. Principles can't be "reconciled" like that.
Abortion is not susceptible to any kind of single universal principle. It is either murder of the fetus or enslavement of the mother. From there, you can invoke any number of principles, but they have to start from the basic choice of murder or enslavement.
No, wrong verb or noun, take your pick. Principles can't be "reconciled" like that.
You're thinking like a principled libertarian, not like someone who just assumes that libertarian values can be reconciled with whatever principle you please.
No, I'm being a grammar
nazilizzie.Huh, I kinda like that, a grammar lizzie. Seems extensible in every way. A speed nazi sits in the fast lane at the speed limit. A speed lizzie drives at any speed in any lane as long as he's not blocking others from going faster in other lanes or tailgating those going slower. Eco nazis get righteous about those who don't compost. An eco lizzie just says keep the smell and vermin down.
"No, wrong verb or noun, take your pick. Principles can't be "reconciled" like that."
Sure. I should have said, "How can we reconcile libertarian principles with that premise." I was writing too quickly.
Still trying to reconcile principles. Can't be done.
-- the grammar lizzie speaketh
This is like saying you can't reconcile a compass. The premise that the sentence intended to "reconcile a compass" is nonsense and not necessarily the part of the speaker. You can reconcile the map to the compass or your understanding of reality to the map and the compass but the idea that he was saying "reconcile the compass" is just you being lizard-brained.
My point above being that most of us map and compass users usually walk around with them in relatively alignment but there are some who like to pretend that lines on a map are just figments of imagination.
Grammar Karen would like to speak to Grammar Lizzie’s supervisor
Even that re-statement was probably in-artful. My point is that, the point where life begins is going to have to be a premise. No libertarian principles can say when a person gets their rights.
But, once we have selected a premise, then libertarian principles can take us from there. Everything about what counts as aggression, obligation, and responsibility can be taken from that point.
For example, The Jacket's odious article this weekend is a perfect example of a person trying to beg the question. There is a libertarian case to be made that if an embryo is a human life, there must still be limits to what a government will undertake to protect that- often when it means invading the privacy and denying the rights of others.
So if we assume that an Embryo does have human rights, what do our libertarian principles lead us to conclude about IVF? Firstly, the mass creation of embryos is a violation of rights, since the vast majority will be subsequently killed. Indeed even many experimental medical procedures would likely be considered a violation of rights, though there would be a balance to be made when those procedures are being done to save the life of the embryo.
Again, I think these would be far more interesting conversations about this subject than yet another, "You deplorables don't know what you have unleashed upon us!"
first, there is a point where you can consider it murder, and still recognize that doing anything about it requires violating other rights. (and not just for the "murderer.") it is hard to claim a position as principled if you have to sacrifice other principles in the process.
second, that is still FAR to simplistic. most of the most die hard pro-choice people still have a hard time getting behind late term abortions, and many generally pro-life people have a hard time getting worked up over the morning after pill. (or, in the example of the article, leftover embryos from IVF.) almost nobody is fully on board with calling it murder early on, and almost nobody thinks it is just fine late in the pregnancy. everyone has a different personal scale of gray, but it is not 100% black or white for almost anyone. pretending it is is ignoring reality.
No, another choice is slaughter of an insentient animal.
Are all parents thus enslaved by their children?
Maybe it does but so what? Roe never should have been considered by the Court and the decision itself was a load of crap and not supported by any law or science, e.g. Blackmun cited NO science that occurred after the 11th Century. Sadly, if Roe never gets 'decided' maybe cooler heads prevail and by now we have some input and laws about IVF that we can all live with.
So, the long and short of it is Nebraska's law might affect IVFs. Maybe. Hell, even Alabama said no way it would come into play.
And what percentage of IVFs that take place in the US take place in Nebraska?
^ this, . In oregon you can kill the baby while you're in labor so i'm pretty sure IVF is fine there. If you're doing IVF, which costs 20K and more, you can fly to portland for it.
Oh and it is noteworthy that Mr Bailey managed to find the same nonsense argument that Chemjeff was making this weekend.
"Given the number of embryos destroyed as a side effect of IVF treatments, Lehigh University bioethicist Dena Davis sought to analyze in her 2006 article, "The Puzzle of IVF," why there was so little anti-IVF activism on the part of the pro-life movement.
[...]
Anti-abortion activists claim to be motivated purely by concern for the unborn, but in fact they are motivated primarily by concerns for the shape of society and for the preservation of traditional gender roles."
It is impossible to square this viewpoint with how anti-abortion activists were strongly opposed to embryonic stem cell research back in the early 2000s. If they really only cared about putting women in their place, Bush would not have had to deal with the fact that embryos were being created and killed merely to harvest their stem cells. But there was outrage, and he did have to act. Which, you know, makes all of Bailey and Davis's subsequent rationalization moot.
The fact is, most people don't object to IVF because most don't know what it entails. Those who remember the early 90s know that IVF was actually very controversial when it was taking off. One of the reasons embryos are cryogenically frozen for the long term was that Pro-Life people in fact DID protest the fact that embryos were being created only to be discarded later. The industry also does everything in its power to keep a low profile, highlight births, and sanitize language that describes their use of embryonic abandonment and even abortion in their process.
Kate Goslyn from the shows "Jon and Kate Plus Eight" and "Kate plus Eight" received IVF and declined to abort her children. She did this out of her pro-life stance, which is why we were doomed to 10 years of her vapid, narcissistic lifestyle. Nevertheless, she is an example of a Pro-Life person who clearly *was* concerned more about the embryo than whatever gender-role nonsense Davis alludes to.
Bailey is right about one thing: Logically speaking, many IVF procedures are borderline, if not completely unethical if you accept the premise that an embryo has rights. Rather than sit and accuse Pro-Lifers of mumble-mumble-gender-conforming babble, maybe it is time for smart persons such as himself to think about how to make the IVF industry more ethical.
Yeah, now that you mention it, the talking point back then was pro-lifers were Against Science - I even remember cartoons mocking them on the subject.
Now this is all memory holed - "I don't remember pro-lifers ever complaining about this."
It's like some time back when some guy wrote an article saying libertarians never complain about police brutality.
Are there people who still say, "I hear someone holds position X, let me look them up and find out what they say, then if I disagree, I'll rebut it."
Now it's all "my feelings tell me that someone holds position X, so let's just assume they do, without any research, and go on a tirade against position X."
And on the Internet, of all places!
One problem there is if "you accept the premise that" some entity "has rights", as if they inhered in the thing rather than being an invention. We should discuss rights as things we should have, not that we can somehow discover do have. Rights are invented so we can best get along. Humanity is not slave to rights, rights do the bidding of humanity.
Fuck off slaver.
Is that like your right to my wallet?
my brother & wife flew to at least four different states in attempts @IVF it looks to me like they'll likely be able to continue the practice should they desire.
The Supreme Court's Dobbs Decision Threatens Assisted Reproduction
GOOD!
One shouldn't mess with mother nature.
The slippery slope fallacy consists of arguments that reason if something S were to happen, then something else P will eventually occur, so we should prohibit S from happening.
Slippery slope arguments have to be at least somewhat implausible usually based on hypotheticals.
> Supreme Court might more easily decide to prohibit IVF because it would not involve "a countervailing claim to a woman's gestational bodily autonomy."
That isn't up to the Supreme Court to decide. It is up to the legislature to decide to prohibit IVF. The Court can only decide whether such a ban is constitutional. If 88% of Americans are okay with IVF, there is virtually no chance of a ban passing.
For example, I have no constitutional right to purchase toilet paper. The Supreme Court would certainly rule in favor of a ban. But until enough of Congress is in the pocket of Big Bidget, Charmin is at no risk of being banned off the shelf.
> Of course, the fact that a majority of Americans believe that decisions about terminating a pregnancy should be left to a woman and her doctor didn't prevent Roe v. Wade from being overturned.
As well as it shouldn't have. I don't have strong feelings on whether the Court came to the correct constitutional decision. But I feel strongly that the Court shouldn't rule based on public opinion.
"OMG, pro-lifers don't *really* want to ban the IVF industry!"
"OMG, the IVF industry is threatened by pro-lifers!"
"OMG, by closing the IVF industry you'd be denying children to all these couples who want children!"
"OMG, by forbidding abortion you're going to end up with a bunch of babies nobody wants, because couples don't want to adopt babies (since IVF satisfies their wishes in this respect."
How about adopting the babies we actually have before calling Dr. Frankenstein to create new ones?
How many adopted children live in your house?
How many babiies have *you* killed?
Zero. But how about caring for the living breathing children without parents yourself before hectoring people about creating "extra". Until then, I say Dr. Frankenstein is more than welcome to help me create living breathing children where there would be none.
What do you think of the War on Drugs?
If you're against, when will you take the addicts into your home?
If you're for it, when will you join the vigilante patrols to keep drug dealers out of your community?
Adopting children isn't the same as having your own offspring. Creating an artificial market for adoption by limiting ivf won't change that. Most people prefer to have their own biological children. Do you really want a bunch of people who are just "settling" for adoption because they have become desperate?
You were the one that originally suggested that orphans are extra children that infertile couples should simply make do with rather than seeking medical treatment for their infertility, as if all children are simply interchangeable. I question why anyone with that belief would hazard making children the normal way. Clearly, there are "extra" kids out there. Why risk a fetus failing to develop in a womb when there's a "perfectly good" child at your local orphanage?
The question is, of course, rhetorical. I know you're aware that children are not interchangeable and there is value in a blood connection with one's children and I presume your hostility to anything that involves the demise of a fertilized egg comes largely from ignorance about IVF specifically but also human pregnancy at large. To make a long story short: Normal human biology involves the creation and destruction of large numbers of embryos. You can't handwave those off just because they are "natural". If you are engaging in unprotected sex, chances are better than half that any particular embryo that fertilizes from the results of your activities will not result in a baby. Some people get lucky and make it on the first try. Others, particularly those with fertility issues but also many perfectly healthy people, try over and over with no success and a lot of that lack of "success" is fertilized embryos that for one reason or another don't make it.
There's more to it than that, but this simplistic idea that IVF patients are simply callous murderers of untold armies of children equal in value to any healthy bouncing baby is simply not true. Making babies is a messy business. IVF simply exposes that messy process for the world to see and some people don't like what they see, but it's there going on in the belly of every woman whether you like it or not.
TL;DR version: "Let's cross this bridge before we come to it."
It is not clear that IVF is a good idea, let alone universal, national availability of IVF. However, I suspect the idea of banning it is too politically unpopular.
But luckily, should IVF become unavailable, all those couples who wanted IVF can now adopt all the unaborted but unwanted babies.
It is not clear that IVF is a good idea
What in the samhill fuck are you on? Of course IVF isn't a good idea in the same way that chemotherapy isn't a good idea, but if its your only option for having a child, then that's that. You do it.
What in the actual fuck. Do you think anyone just up and says "golly honey, making kids the old fashioned way through tons of sex just isn't fun enough. Why don't you get hopped up on a shitload of shockingly expensive and painful drugs, have a few surgeries, make a few Sophie's Choices about children you know little more about than how many chromosomes they have, and then just roll the fucking dice because the success rate on this shit isn't great."?
Children conceived via IVF have higher risk of birth-related problems, congenital abnormalities, infertility, and disease later in life. That's why it isn't clear that it is a "good idea" to reproduce via IVF.
As a libertarian, I oppose banning IVF, but I also oppose mandating insurance companies to cover IVF or children conceived via IVF.
Most insurance already doesn't cover the IVF process. There's no mandate. I agree that there shouldn't be any mandates for any kind of insurance and that stuff is exactly why medical care is so expensive.
As for whether it's a "good idea". Of course it's not a "good idea". It's a last recourse for a reason. Anyone who can conceive children the normal way probably should, but telling people who can't that it's not a "good idea" is ridiculous. They don't have another option.
If we're gonna clutch pearls, let's not fuck around.
Please use more culturally sensitive and less sexist language!
[Sigh. Reason HTML.]
The Supreme Court's Dobbs Decision Threatens
Assisted ReproductionWomen Who Have Their PeriodBleeding Persons With Wanton Egg DestructionWell, to be fair and to be sure, we're talking about fertilized eggs here. I think. Have we gone past that yet?
Just make shit up, Ron. That'll help.
^thread winner
These ostensible concerns neglect one point: that courts don't legislate and don't prosecute. It's not as if anti-abortion laws are going to be suddenly turned against practitioners of IVF; even if, due to some prosecutor's folly, they were to be so, legislatures would enact exceptions for IVF.
IVF splits the anti-abortion interest groups so badly that they're not going to get laws that outlaw it. Some people are anti-abortion because being against birth control won't cut it these days, so they're pro-natal, hence pro-IVF. Others are anti-abortion to the extent of not wanting fetuses killed, but they have nothing against disposal of early embryos. So you can really sustain an anti-abortion sentiment only against some classes of abortions.
A 15 week cutoff for legal abortions is much more reasonable than either the 9 month legal abortions desired by many pro-abortion activists or that no legal abortions desired by some anti-abortion activists.
With the court decision which returns the debate back to the state level, pro-abortion activists roll out the extreme examples to promote their position.
State laws should be based more on the 80/20 rule where 80 percent is clearly defined and allows some flexibility for the other 20 percent. In reality it's more like 90/10, but pro-abortion activist roll out scenarios that are much lower than 1% and want to use it to base laws.
Regardless of your position on the abortion debate, Roe was bad precedence and a case was brought to the court that punched holes in the logic.
I have some concern that some on the anti-abortion activist will overreach, but more concern with the irrational behavior with pro-abortion activists.
Reasonable restrictions particularly when a pregnancy involves two bodies, not just the body of the woman. The pro-abortion activist claim that this is only a women's rights issue, but a baby moments from delivery being aborted should be criminal.
If the mother's health is at risk, then perform a c-section or induce labor. Dismembering and killing the baby does not solve the issue.
Likewise in the early stages of pregnancy a woman may not know that she is pregnant. Birth control or other measures may have failed. Even though there should be a sense of responsibility for both the female and the male, at times there isn't.
Making all abortions illegal is problematic. Complete prohibitions are inherent with underground activity. Although a world without abortions due to a lack of desire for an abortion would be idea, we don't live in this world. Making all abortions illegal will not make this happen.
15 weeks seems reasonable to me, but every state should debate the issue. The Roe decision had decades and didn't resolve the debate. There is more of a chance that a consensus will develop across the country where the decision is more local.
There will be outliers where they take either extreme position. Yes completely unrestricted until the moment of birth including partial birth and outright bans on all abortions. Both positions are completely and equally unreasonable.
Your post is reasonable, but i don't agree that Roe was bad precedent in that it acknowledged a state interest in the unborn after a period of time while allowing freedom for women to make their own decision about their own body with a time limit. Arguing over the time limit is reasonable. Throwing it all out and introducing the right of the state to decide whatever it wants - that is what Dobbs did - is not reasonable and is - like much of what this illicit court does - fighting the future and fighting most Americans beliefs on the subject.
As Butch Cassidy said "Who are these guys?" They are 6 Catholics with all but 1 appointed by presidents Americans rejected at the polls and 2 of them are in seats stolen from elected Presidents (and therefore from the people) by the GOP in a court packing done in broad daylight. Unfortunately Americans have to live with their idiocy, extremism, and legislating religious ideas from the bench, no matter Americans think they are dead wrong. The GOP should wear it.
"but, but, but........ Only Gov-Gods packing Gov-Guns knows what's best for everyone..." /s
The Supreme Court's Dobbs Decision Threatens Assisted ReproductionUnintended Consequence Of Dobbs Decision Turns Country Into Literal Handmaids Tale For Women Trying To Conceive
"a great deal of hostility toward economic equality of women, sexual activity outside of marriage"
Yep, that's what all of this is about
Neither "potential life" nor "unborn human being" = fetal personhood.
There maybe some risk for IVF providers, but I think you are blowing it way out of proportion.
Right; Cause regulating everyone's healthcare plans is taking the commerce clause "way out of proportion"....
After seeing this POWER-GRAB by Government over and over and over again; one would think people would LEARN something.
Nope; Too much LOVE and worshiping of those Gov-Guns to get to go out and STEAL and DICTATE those 'other' 'evil' people.
"The Supreme Court's Dobbs Decision Threatens Assisted Reproduction."
This decision does no such thing. It simply lets the people of each state make decisions that never should have been taken from them in the first place. Will some states decide to enact rules and laws that threaten assisted reproduction? Probably. But that's on the states, and not on the court.
Winston, that is bullshit of the highest order, and that is not a good standard. Dobbs took the decision from the people and gave it to the states. WTF is wrong with you?
Dobbs took the decision from the people
Which people, specifically, did it take the decision away from? Because it looks like you could probably name all nine of them and not a single one was voted on by the public at large. Also, I wasn't aware that the individual states were dictatorships. Silly me I guess. I just went and assumed they were all controlled by people who were elected by the public at large.
Which people, specifically, did it take the decision away from?
Amy, Kathy, Nikki, etc, etc, etc, etc,etc..........................................
You're SOOOOOOOOO in LOVE with GOVERNMENT you don't even see People anymore at all... You think [WE] mobs of voters commanding Gov-Guns are people. No; That's called Government.
[WE] mobs RULE so your PERSONAL lives must be dictated. /s
"Dobbs took the decision from the people and gave it to the states."
Since the original decision made it a federal law and this decision threw it back to the states and the people, this has to be one of Joe's stupider statements. Joe loves him some centralized power, make no bones about it.
HORSE-SH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Supreme Court OPPRESSES federal and state law by interpreting the U.S. Constitution ("The People's" law over their government.)
This B.S. narrative ('Federal law') going around is one of the worst manipulative propaganda pieces I've ever seen...
Roe v Wade SPECIFICALLY forbid 'Federal Law' over people's pregnancies... That's why it was an Individual Right....
Can U really be that mis-informed? Or are you just pulling rabbits out of your hat to save face?
Whew.. The B.S. manipulation going on...
"It simply lets the" [WE] mobs of Power-Mad People in each state use Gov-Gun threats to make a PERSONAL decisions for YOU."
Everyone knows that.... I don't know why ur pretending people are so stupid as to believe the Government didn't just amass a TON of POWER over everyone and killed MORE Individual Liberty.
Forced gestation by design will boost the domestic supply of infants and reduce the need for IVF.
Fear-monger much?
Women (sorry, birthing persons) who get IVF wants to get pregnant. If you're in a red state with a more middle of the road regulation on abortion, you probably have the first 7,8 weeks during pregnancy to change your mind.
The SC didn't rule on IVF, it just returned abortion standards to the states. If a red state says destruction of embryos is the same thing a aborting a fetus 90% to being a baby, the voters will have to speak their minds. But I don't think most red states that adapt such a measure.
"I don't think most red states that adapt such a measure"
Sorry to bear the news, but a majority of red states are already on the way to banning all abortions, so few "middle of the road" states.
Arkansas, Alabama, Idaho, Missouri, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, West Virginia and Wyoming ban abortion at any date, meaning when a zygote is not visible to the human eye. Others including Ohio, Iowa, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Utah target the 6 week range (emrbyo the size of a pomegranate seed), where in many cases the mother may not realize she is pregnant before the window passes.
Practices like IVF and treatment for miscarriage are absolutely thrown into legal grey areas as part of this. Doctors are legally exposed, broadly, but states may clarify the grey areas in the fullness of time (some of these anti-abortion laws go back centuries, along with the motivating religious reasoning).
waxliberty - have you read the text of any of these laws?
Echoing my comments above, I've read two (Texas and Oklahoma). These define abortion, respectively, in terms of "unborn child of a woman known to be pregnant" and "intentionally to terminate the pregnancy of a female known to be pregnant". (I've quoted full definitions, with links to text of state laws, in comments above.)
So, speaking specifically to IVF embryos that have not yet been implanted, I don't see any legal grey area in these laws. Those embryos could legally be destroyed. I
Fair enough. Probably true many do specify action taken on a pregnant female.
Nebraska: "or purposes of the Nebraska Human Life Protection Act, unborn child means an individual living member of the species homo sapiens, throughout the embryonic and fetal stages of development from fertilization to full gestation and childbirth.
Sec. 4. (1) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, it shall be unlawful for any person to administer, prescribe, sell, or otherwise provide any medicine, drug, or other substance with the specific intent of causing or abetting the termination of the life of an unborn child.
...
The intentional and knowing violation of subsection (1) or (2)
of this section is a Class IIA felony."
Sounds ambiguous.
Has some language trying to give doctors room if needed to protect the mother's life. Maybe they can prove that, maybe they can't, up to them to decide where to take the chance.
That's also fair.
My criticism is ultimately far more aimed at Bailey and other people writing articles on these topics, who in far too many cases don't seem to read the laws that exist. I should not have taken my frustration out on you.
And whom is the guilty party? The egg donor or the surogate?
If it's too dumb for words rest assured that Sullum stands ready to out Dostoevsky Dostoevsky.
Bailey, not Sullum