The Bipartisan Senate Gun Control Bill Would Unjustly Deprive Americans of Their Second Amendment Rights
The legislation prohibits firearm sales based on juvenile records and subsidizes state laws that suspend gun rights without due process.

Senate negotiators unveiled a bipartisan gun control bill yesterday, hours before it survived a preliminary vote with enough support to overcome a filibuster. Sixty-four senators voted to advance the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which expands background-check requirements for gun buyers younger than 21, widens the categories of people who are not allowed to buy firearms, and provides federal funding for states with "red flag" laws.
The bill, which is the product of negotiations between Democrats and Republicans who want to be seen as doing something to prevent mass shootings and other kinds of gun violence, purports to achieve that goal without sacrificing Second Amendment rights. But the bill's details raise serious questions about its effectiveness and fairness. It pays lip service to civil liberties while canceling the gun rights of adults based on juvenile records, and it subsidizes state laws that suspend those rights without due process.
The bill requires that background checks for 18-to-20-year-olds who buy guns from federally licensed dealers include juvenile criminal and psychiatric records. If the National Instant Criminal Background Check System notifies a dealer within three business days that "cause exists to further investigate a possibly disqualifying juvenile record," the dealer is required to delay the sale up to 10 business days after the initial query. At that point, the sale can be completed unless a disqualifying record has been identified.
The main rationale for this new requirement is that it could be an obstacle for young mass murderers with disqualifying juvenile records. The perpetrators of the May 14 massacre in Buffalo, New York, and the May 24 attack in Uvalde, Texas, were both 18-year-olds who legally bought firearms from licensed dealers after passing background checks. But it does not look like those sales would have been blocked even if the background checks had included juvenile records.
Erie County District Attorney John Flynn said the 18-year-old charged with murdering 10 people at a Buffalo supermarket had no prior criminal record. Last year, when state police investigated him because of a comment about murder that he passed off as a joke, a psychiatric evaluation concluded that he did not meet the criteria for involuntary treatment. The Associated Press reports that the Uvalde shooter, who was killed by police after he murdered 19 elementary-school students and two teachers, "had no criminal record" and "no history of mental illness treatment."
Nor would the new requirement have made a difference in other notorious mass shootings where the perpetrator was younger than 21. The 17-year-old charged with murdering 10 people at a Santa Fe, Texas, high school in 2018 used his father's guns, so there was no background check for him to fail. The 20-year-old who killed 20 children and six adults at a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school in 2012 obtained the rifle he used from his mother. The perpetrators of the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Colorado obtained firearms through older intermediaries.
The 19-year-old who killed 17 people at a Parkland, Florida, high school in 2018 had a history of disturbing behavior, and he had received mental health treatment. But a 2013 psychiatric evaluation under Florida's Baker Act concluded that he did not meet the criteria for commitment. The Associated Press reported that he "did not have a criminal record before the shooting."
Notwithstanding these examples, there may be cases where checking juvenile records would block gun sales to would-be mass murderers younger than 21. But that policy is inconsistent with the general principle that people who commit crimes as minors should not be followed by that record as adults. Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D–N.Y.), hardly a Second Amendment enthusiast, raised that point earlier this month, saying she was concerned about "the expansion of background checks into juvenile records."
The Bipartisan Safer Communities Act not only blocks gun sales to young adults with disqualifying juvenile records. It permanently strips them of their Second Amendment rights, adding the phrase "including as a juvenile" to the list of criteria that make gun sales to certain buyers illegal. Current law makes it a felony for "any person" to transfer a gun when he knows or has "reasonable cause to believe" the recipient is disqualified. As amended by this bill, that provision would prohibit transfers to people with disqualifying juvenile records, even after they turn 21.
That means a teenager who is convicted of a crime punishable by more than a year of incarceration would not be allowed to buy firearms as an adult. Likewise for a teenager who is subjected to involuntary psychiatric treatment, provided that happened "at 16 years of age or older." Those changes magnify the irrationality and injustice of the current rules, which criminalize firearm possession long after a conviction or commitment order, regardless of whether a would-be gun owner has ever done anything to suggest violent tendencies. It is especially perverse to deprive adults of their constitutional rights based on what they did (or what was done to them) when they were minors.
That policy looks even more questionable when you compare it to the bill's treatment of the "boyfriend loophole." Under current law, people are prohibited from owning guns if they have been convicted of a "misdemeanor crime of domestic violence" against an "intimate partner." The latter phrase is defined to include a current or former spouse, a current or former cohabitant, and a parent of the misdemeanant's child. The Bipartisan Safer Communities Act expands that definition to include participants in "a current or recent former dating relationship."
The new language requires "a continuing serious relationship of a romantic or intimate nature," as evidenced by "the length of the relationship," "the nature of the relationship," and "the frequency and type of interaction between the individuals involved in the relationship." This expansion includes two notable qualifications: It does not apply to domestic violence misdemeanors committed before the law takes effect, and the gun-possession ban lasts just five years.
Oddly, the bill does not extend that time limit to the misdemeanors already covered by the domestic violence provision. As long as they do not commit any additional violent crimes, boyfriends get their Second Amendment rights back after five years, but only if they never lived with their victims, married them, or produced children with them. Other "intimate partners" still lose their rights permanently. That distinction is puzzling if legislators think misdemeanors like these are not grave enough to justify such a lifelong deprivation.
So is the distinction between violent boyfriends and juvenile offenders or psychiatric patients. If a man who assaults his girlfriend can safely be trusted with guns five years later, why should a juvenile criminal or psychiatric record forever prevent someone from legally buying firearms? If anything, a presumption of rehabilitation seems more justified in the latter case.
Still, this bill breaks new ground by acknowledging that time limits are appropriate for certain kinds of offenses. Having established that precedent, Congress should reconsider the lifelong ban for people with adult felony records, which applies whether or not their crimes involved violence, and the lifelong ban for people subjected to involuntary psychiatric treatment, which applies even if they were never deemed a threat to others. If violent boyfriends can automatically recover their Second Amendment rights, why can't former marijuana dealers or formerly suicidal psychiatric patients?
Red flag laws, which authorize court orders that suspend the gun rights of people who are deemed a threat to themselves or others, typically for a year, raise a similar issue. Judges charged with distinguishing between genuinely dangerous individuals and respondents who are mistakenly (or maliciously) portrayed as such have a strong incentive to err on the side of issuing orders. It is therefore important that such laws include strong due process safeguards.
The Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which approves federal grants to states with "extreme risk protection order programs," says eligible programs must respect "the Bill of Rights," including "the substantive or procedural due process rights guaranteed under the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments." But the bill's specific requirements fall far short of that aspiration.
The bill says eligible programs "must include, at the appropriate phase to prevent any violation of constitutional rights, at minimum, notice, the right to an in-person hearing, an unbiased adjudicator, the right to know opposing evidence, the right to present evidence, and the right to confront adverse witnesses." While all of the 19 states with red flag laws eventually give respondents a chance to rebut the allegations against them, all of those laws also authorize temporary, ex parte orders, which can suspend the respondent's gun rights for weeks without a hearing. The Bipartisan Safer Communities Act says nothing about the criteria for those orders or how long they should last.
The bill says respondents must have "the right to be represented by counsel at no expense to the government." That means states have no obligation to provide counsel for respondents who cannot afford to pay a lawyer, leaving them to navigate a complicated and daunting process on their own.
To be eligible for grants, the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act says, states must require "heightened evidentiary standards," which sounds good but does not amount to much as defined by the bill. It says the standards must be "not less than the protections afforded to a similarly situated litigant in Federal court." The standard that applies in federal civil cases is "a preponderance of the evidence," which in this context means it is more likely than not that the respondent poses a risk.
Most states with red flag laws require "clear and convincing evidence," a more demanding test. But either way, since red flag laws generally do not specify how big the risk has to be, they allow orders even in cases where it is extremely unlikely that the respondent would use a gun to harm himself or anyone else. The Bipartisan Safer Communities Act does not address that issue at all.
The bill also says nothing about who should be allowed to apply for red flag orders. In some states, petitioners are limited to police and prosecutors, who are supposed to independently and dispassionately determine whether there is enough evidence to seek an order. Other states allow a long list of relatives and acquaintances to directly petition courts, which increases the danger posed by personal bias or animosity.
The bill does say that eligible programs must "prevent reliance upon evidence that is unsworn or unaffirmed, irrelevant, based on inadmissible hearsay, unreliable, vague, speculative, and lacking a foundation." States are also supposed to establish "penalties for abuse of the program," although such cases are very difficult to prosecute, since they hinge on a petitioner's knowledge and intent. A civil remedy against petitioners who lie would be a stronger deterrent to abuse.
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R–Ky.) says the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act is "a common sense package of popular steps that will help make these horrifying incidents less likely while fully upholding the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens." The details of the bill provide ample grounds to be skeptical of both claims.
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This sort of thing seems likely to discourage people from seeking mental health treatment who need it. It will be more effective at that than at stopping psychos from murdering people, I would guess.
Win-win. That reduces the costs of health care, an objective of both parties.
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I wonder if this would affect me. Years ago after a bad accident, I had a nasty reaction from the morphine they gave me - I would become disoriented under bright light. The hospital had a psychiatrist check me to be sure they hadn't fried my brain (I lean libertarian, so I guess we know the answer).
I doubt there's a traceable record, but I wonder if that would trigger a NICS warning under the new regime.
Psychos aren't going to seek treatment. The people who are paranoid that the government will take their guns aren't going to seek treatment because they're right.
I mean we don't have the recent examples of New Zealand or Australia. And Canada is definitely not talking about it. Those crazy psychos believing governments would do such things are just crazy.
Those countries don't have a 2A, so it was easier. What we have to look forward to is retroactive incrementalism. Ex-post-facto this and double-jeopardy that. Until all that's legal are crappy, single-shot, smooth-bore, long guns.
Put me back on the list liar.
IT doesn't matter if they have the 2A or not. The 2A isn't stopping the left. They continue to push to remove the right. Your reliance on that talking point and calling others crazy for noticing the global push is just ignorant. That is why the left is relying on the perfunctory clause regarding a militia, refers to 2A as a group right, not individual. Etc.
People pointing this out are not delusional. They are aware of what the desire of the pro government left is.
What are you replying to? Voices in your head? Your rant has no relevance to my post.
Do you read your own fucking posts?
The people who are paranoid that the government will take their guns
That was humor. Oh, I forgot you're the poster child for obtuse.
Lol. Back to defense of stupid with it was a joke. Never change man.
The only stupid is the one who can't tell that it was a joke. And that ain't me.
You're such a boor.
Lol. Sorry that you can't remember your own posts from 30 minutes ago.
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Accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a liar isn't a good method of persuasion. It just makes you look like a complete asshole.
The people who are paranoid that the government will take their guns
Thats your right.
For fucks sake man. How much of a liar are you.
You're the guy who defends Trump for being hyperbolic and just saying stuff, yet when I say something in jest or a throwaway comment you insist it's the only time I said what I really mean and everything else I say is a lie.
Fuck you, buddy. Seriously.
Cite?
You were literally just asking what I was responding to. Are you able to read your own post? Where was the humor?
You have no sense of humor so there's no point in explaining. The only thing you find funny is harm coming to people you don't like. So fuck off.
Cite your humor. I cited what you asked me to. Provide your cite.
By the way. Cite on me laughing at the harm of others? Here is yours.
sarcasmic
July.16.2021 at 3:11 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
I was going to add something about people who might be splattered by the mess, but nobody cares about your alone ass. Shit. Nobody will know you're missed until they shut the power off and things start to smell.
Or were you lying again?
Recent SC decisions have been on the side of the 2A as an individual right, not a group right. The left is pushing, but they're so far failing. Why? Because Canada, Australia an New Zeeland don't have a 2A. Most states include a right to bear arms in their constitutions. I don't need a permit to carry concealed here in Maine.
There's a lot of bluster in the wake of recent shootings, but for now our 2A rights are secure.
Settle down.
And despite all of that they literally are about to pass a law that allows government to take away their guns prior to due process you fucking imbecile.
All it takes is 2 more dem appointed judges to go the other way on the interpretation of 2a rights as I stated above. It osnt some magic line that will protect you from their primary goal of removing the right as an individual right. Are you truly this fucking ignorant? That was their attack on Heller.
Has the law passed? Has it been challenged?
Your hyperventilating and name-calling doesn't make your point any more convincing. I just makes you look like an asshole.
Lol. Now to this defense. It passed the 60 vote threshold easy. They only need 1 gop member to pass it on the next vote. How dumb are you to pretend this isn't going to pass. What a shit defense for a shit assertion.
More name calling. Grow up.
Educate yourself buddy.
This has just been a pathetic showing for you.
You were better off pretending I was muted again like this morning.
GFY
Jesse, sarc was actually agreeing with Zeb. That’s why his full quote ended with “because they’re right”.
I know you hate him and vice versa, but this was overly antagonistic.
OK. I don't care who started it. Both of you go to your rooms. No computers, no phones.
Government given right to bear arms not shoot them.
That is up to God.
The freedom is not an excuse to ease your soul when you kill someone.
Definitely an infringement.
14 gop pieces of shit allowed this. 50 dem pieces of shit did as well.
Yep. Fuck those GOP traitors. What the hell use are they?
I’m waiting for Biden to attempt a nationalization of the US refinery industry. I think that will be the tipping point to what must come next.
That will work about as well as the nationalization of the Venezuelan oil industry.
Whelp, looks like we have a new list of RINOs we can replace with unapologetic hispanic women whose campaign signs read: Dios, Familia, Patria on them.
Let the white replacement begin.
Especially if they’re as attractive as her.
Not to invoke the ghost of Ken Schultz, but is it "bipartisan" when 50 Democrats vote for it and 14 Republicans vote for it?
Both sides were obviously equal.
According to the MSM and Reason, yes I know they are the same; if even one single Republican supports it, it's bipartisan.
Would it be bipartisan if it was 50 Republicans an 14 Democrats? Probably so. It passes the significant 60.
No, that would be a right-wing backlash don't say gay bill, or something.
No. Bipartisan means agreement from both parties. The subjects of the term is based on party agreement, not individuals of the party being in agreement.
For example if democrats were 30-20 and republicans 20-30, which vote is bipartisan, the yes or no vote? The way you are using it would make the term bipartisan meaningless.
14/50 is 28%.
That's not insignificant.
You’re not wrong.
It isnt a majority. Which part of my comment were you unable to understand? Which vote in that example is bipartisan? Both.
Is almost 30% of the other side going along bipartisan to you? If so then 50/14 is bipartisan.
I literally state what my definition is above. For fucks sake man. Learn to ficking comprehend the words you read.
JesseAz
June.22.2022 at 6:04 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
No. Bipartisan means agreement from both parties. The subjects of the term is based on party agreement, not individuals of the party being in agreement.
Labels aside, it really underscores the need to primary these quislings when they come up for election. Especially since it’s only every six years.
No, I think Bipartisan should have to be at least 50% of each party voted one way or the other.
So 25 Reps vote with 50 Dems (or the other way around)? Bipartisan.
I think it is fair to call it bipartisan since it is being done with the blessing of McConnell. This wasn't a couple of defectors, this was the republican party sending an expeditionary force along with the Democrats into uncharted territory.
Yep, and I agree with sarcasmic's point about having enough support (60+ votes) to overcome a filibuster.
Oh yeah, and "Bipartisan" is in the title of the bill, so you know it has to be.
Of course, "bipartisan" doesn't mean correct, legal, or good.
still disagree. By the definition here you could have a bipartisan yes and no vote.
30/20 dems, 21/29 repubs. Which vote is bipartisan?
The only way the term makes sense is the support of the majority of both parties.
Fair enough. At the end of the day, it's unconstitutional either way.
I don't think you need a majority of both parties to call it bipartisan. And by the same token, I agree that when 1 or 2 democrats vote against some terrible law that republicans uniformly reject, that is bipartisan opposition too. *shrug*
It has no beneficial use as an adjective when. Both sides of a vote can mean the same thing. The only way it doesn't is when both majorities agree.
Sure it does...it means it received support from both sides of the aisle. That means it wasn't split down partisan lines.
I can see why you would want a word for "Supported by a majority of both parties." But there is also a need for "Supported by party members on both sides". Both are important distinctions. If Bipartisan is changed to the former, then you need to create a new word for the latter.
But supported by both parties is meaningless when both no and yes are supported by both parties. That is my issue with how it is used.
I agree as well. I'm not sure what definition of bipartisan you could come up with that doesn't include this. I guess you can pull a No True Scotsman fallacy, but it's a fallacy.
The problem is that bipartisan is often viewed as a gloss for "good" legislation. I do tend to think it's better, for various process reasons, but it can still be bad. And often is. Because voters don't actually think the same way I do.
Even more so, I think the bipartisan label is even more necessary when there is bad regulation. Republicans don't get to blame this on Democrats. This is a chinese finger trap fucking- dicks from both ends. And the Republicans have to own that.
McConnell could have held this back. He didn't.
I feel like I'm driving this point home a bit TOO much these last few days, but we need to avoid getting too caught up in word games. Whether this qualifies as bipartisan or not definitely falls into that category.
The fact that they use “Bipartisan” in its title truly shows that we live in the Age of Mindfuck, and hopefully the history books remember it as such.
Ken Schulz is dead?!
Seems about as bipartisan as the J6 committee.
18 isn’t juvenile. Psych records are off limits. This bill is done in before it gets anywhere.
I knew someone who had both a severe psychological condition and a neurological condition that caused his hands to severely shake. Because of experimental medication for the neurological condition, he could not take psychological medication, except as needed. So, his temper could get horribly out of control.
The State of Georgia approved his buying a handgun. His wife, who used to carry a large knife in the outside pocket of her briefcase, when she had to walk to her car from her office on evenings when she stayed late, told him no, as did one of his physicians, who was a hunter.
You don't need an advanced degree to know that he had no business owning a firearm.
Your story keeps changing. It's different from the last time you told it. Keep reaching.
Psych records are off limits.
That may not be true. Involuntaries can be initiated by doctors, but are adjudicated through the courts in most states (after the fact).
Nothing is off limits. They can get the notes from your high school guidance councilor fifty years ago. It's all there. Nothing is destroyed.
Speaking of paranoia.
Ever applied for a security clearance? Their investigations can go back into high school and juvenile records. I've seen it first hand. How could they do that if the files were locked away or destroyed?
Lol. Ummm. Yes. I know how they work. They don't go to your fucking high school counselor dumbass. So no. You haven't seen it first hand dumbass. They don't even look at your grades. They can go to Julie, but in general they do not unless they have reason to investigate prior to the 18th birthday. The record searches go back 5 and 7 years respectively. That is the information they ask for you lying fuck. You are required to report where you lived and who knew you at each location for those time frames. Same with employers. They can go talk to neighbors id they wish.
Do you want more non made up information dumbass?
You can call me names all day long, but it won't change what I've seen.
You mean change what you lied about. Lol. I provided the evidence below dummy.
My evidence is personal, so I'm not going to share. Not going to give you more personal info for you to twist and lie about.
Please don't keep digging. You are 100% wrong. I have literally provided you the questions and process below.
It is just sad at this point.
The process doesn't change from person to person. The process is the same. Just stop digging.
And I will tell you this. The three things they will explore longer than the 5 or 7 years based on clearance level is:
A) membership in a group advocating overthrow of the government.
B) looney bin
C) drug rehab
Those are reportable beyond the time frames given. They don't give a fuck about your grades or your HS counselor.
You can even get a clearance having used drugs in the past as long as you admit to having done it and not try to hide it. It includes alcohol in case you had a minor in possession of spiritous liquors. They are seeking honesty and information that may be used for blackmail.
Jesse, would it kill you to stop being an arrogant dickhead for just a moment?
Sarc mentioned a "security clearance". He didn't state what specifically it was for. Did it ever occur to you, that maybe:
- that this security clearance wasn't for the US military
- that this security clearance wasn't for the US government at all
- that this security clearance was conducted by investigators who didn't follow the rules
- that this security clearance was conducted by investigators following a different set of rules from a while ago
- that this security clearance was for a different position than the ones covered by your documents below
You implicitly made a ton of assumptions about what specifically this "security clearance" was, based on very little information. You really have no idea what the context is of sarc's claim but that didn't stop you from launching a full set of insults based on it.
Maybe you should learn a little bit of humility before jumping in and declaring someone to be a liar.
Jeff. You do realize that there are only 3 levels of clearances if you aren't counting nuclear secrets and the process is the same whether for military, contractors, or even politicians right? They all follow the same fucking process.
Security Clearances refer to anything labeled as NSI. Nuclear can have RD, FRD, TFNI. I may be missing one. But when combined with NSI the same clearances are required. The same processes are required.
Stop fucking arguing from ignorance when you obviously no jack shit om the subject. The investigators would lose their jobs from deviating from the set process. That is a fact.
It is so pathetic watching you two arguing stringently from ignorance.
Do you also realize, Jesse, that the term "security clearance" is also used colloquially, often interchangeably with "background check"? Sarc may not have even been referring to the formal process that you are describing.
There are about a dozen plausible ways to view his statement without "YOU'RE A LIAR" being one of them.
You don't know jack shit about what sarc observed in his life or what anyone else observed in their own lives. You really need a good dose of humility. Seriously. Have you never viewed a situation or listened to a story, made some assumptions about it and cast judgment about the people in the story, only to have it revealed that your assumptions about the event were not just wrong, but embarrassingly, horribly wrong, so much so that you felt bad for being so wrong and making such terrible judgments about people? Has that never happened to you? Because that's happened to pretty much everyone I think. Most people, when that happens to them, they do a little bit of reflection, so that in the future, they do not make so many unwarranted assumptions, they take more time to truly listen to the story instead of inserting one's own assumptions for parts of the story, they start to understand a little bit more where other people are coming from. That is called humility. Get some.
No it isnt you fucking idiot. SEcuroty clearance is a specific term covering the protection of national information.
Holy shit jeff. Just take the fucking L. You aren't getting security clearancea because your landlord ran a background check.
What fucking ignorance you've displayed here.
And yes I know he is lying because what he described is not the fucking process for security clearance you fucking ignorant shit. This isn't the first time he has lied about a personal story.
When he gets basic facts wrong it is obvious he is lying out of his ass. And your defense is even more laughable because you too are talking from complete ignorance on the topic.
It is obvious you know nothing regarding the process as well, yet feel the need to fuckijg interject. It is a complete description of your worthlessness of you om these boards.
Security clearances and the processes are well documented. You both just pretended to know shit you are actually clueless about like most idiots.
Here is a hint. Aside from you two there are actually intelligent people here, many who have the experiences you posture knowing about. This is why you idiots get called out all the time.
This was just fucking ridiculous from you. Loll. Secueity clearances are background checks!!!! What a fucking stupid response from you.
How do you know that this security clearance was for the US government? Hmm?
And yes I know he is lying
No you don't. You ASSUME he is lying based on a whole raft of assumptions that preceded that conclusion, not the least of which is that you hate him and you lack all sense of humility.
You ASSUME he is talking about this very specific thing that you think you know a lot about. What if he is not referring to that very specific thing? Hmm? Is he lying then? Or are you over-interpreting what he means by the term to fit within this one field that you think you know a great deal about?
What is the intelligence that you think you have demonstrated here tonight? You posted a lot of links about a specific process of a security clearance for the US military based on rules and procedures that are relevant today. But how do you know that those rules and procedures for the security clearance process of today is relevant to the precise circumstances associated with sarc's personal story? YOU DON'T. You are ASSUMING it is so.
You don't even know if he is referring to a security clearance in this country or not!
Maybe he is referring to a security clearance process that occurred decades ago when the procedures were very different. Did that occur to you?
You are actually not very smart, and you overcompensate for your intellectual shortcomings by your aggressive nature and your constant insults.
SEcuroty clearance is a specific term covering the protection of national information.
I said that the term "security clearance" is often used colloquially interchangeably with the term "background check". Do you know what the word "colloquially" means? It means "not according to the strict definition of the word, but according to common usage". It is like using the term "kleenex" to refer to every tissue. Strictly speaking, Kleenex is a specific brand of tissue. But *colloquially*, the term is often used to describe all sorts of tissues. I wouldn't have to explain this to someone who had a solid command of the English language, but then again, it's Jesse we are talking about.
Jeff. You do realize that there are only 3 levels of clearances if you aren't counting nuclear secrets and the process is the same whether for military, contractors, or even politicians right? They all follow the same fucking process.
Security Clearances refer to anything labeled as NSI. Nuclear can have RD, FRD, TFNI. I may be missing one. But when combined with NSI the same clearances are required. The same processes are required.
Stop fucking arguing from ignorance when you obviously no jack shit on the subject. The investigators would lose their jobs from deviating from the set process. That is a fact.
It is so pathetic watching you two arguing stringently from ignorance.
Some information to save you from making shit up again.
https://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/security-clearance-jobs/eqip-application-quik-reference-guide.html
Some of the questions.
https://news.clearancejobs.com/2013/07/19/eqip-questions-and-answers/
Your answer was pure buffoonery.
Believe this is the form used.
https://www.dcsa.mil/Portals/91/Documents/pv/mbi/standard-form-sf-86-guide-for-applicants.pdf
yyou make me look sane.
Lol.
Anyone here use their AR-15 for fishing? Not only are the splashes pretty but you can feed yourself for a whole week with only one burst of several bullets a second!
I wouldn't advise deer hunting with your AR-15. One shot, and the deer has a hole in its side the size of your head. Of course, even a .22 can put a hole the size of some gun owners' heads in the side of a deer. . .
We ONLY have more firearms than people here in the US. For what? To find problems and then shoot the problems to make them go away like on TV?
You're a problem.
I was staying to decide if his post was meant as satire, but it’s just too stupid. It also reflects the intellect and mindset of the typical prog voter.
That is a complete pile of shit, made absolutely zero sense. Not sure who you are trying to parody, but I suspect you're a proggie trying to be cute. Guess what asshat the AR-15 is a .22 caliber gun.
Yeah, wtf is that weirdo even talking about? “Several bullets a second”? An AR-15? I think this is most indicative that this is just some uninformed progtard trying to be clever.
None of them know a goddamn thing about guns.
That’s really what it looks like.
Oh. I get it. Because I don't demonstrate absolute expertise in firearms, I'm "a Proggie" who has nothing to say. Perhaps you simply have a need to feel important and will get that l'il doggie reward anywhere you can get it. . .
You wrote some batshit ignorant idiotic things about guns and you want to get rid of them. THAT is why you’re assumed to be a prog.
Well talking about things without knowing something about them will be the first thing that progs will use to make fun of you.
Apart from that, your parody is either really bad or the result of being terribly, progressively uninformed. People here get that, sorry about that lol
Lol. And yea, you don’t demonstrate absolute expertise in firearms.
The problem is, you don’t even demonstrate marginal expertise in firearms. Like, next to none.
If you don't know even the basics of what you are speaking about don't expect us to take anything you state seriously. You want to take away liberties, but don't even understand the basics of what you are proposing to regulate and end up sounding stupid. And then you cry when people point out your stupidity.
Did you fly directly from Stupidville, or did you have to change planes in Chicago?
I've never understood the "more firearms than people" argument. What is the point?
It's like pens you see. There are more pens in this country than there are people. Pigeons too. So...yeah.
Well, people are trying to restrict speech too. The pen is mightier than the sword, you know? And we certainly wouldn't want a world where people have swords everywhere!
Nobody needs more than 27 different kinds of firearms, maybe?
Why not?
I was being sarcastic.
Or pens. Or dogs. Do we really need more than...2...3 breeds of dogs in this country? You've got german shepherds...Australian shepherds...and I dunno, pick one of the puntables.
Oh and pools...let's do pools next.
Yeah, 28 different kinds of firearms is just too damn many.
It amazes people that one person might have a dozen or more guns, until they learn that each has its own characteristics and purpose.
It also amazes them that guns owners don't consider 1000 rounds to be anything remarkable. I did a demo once where an anti-gunner equated 1000 rounds with a "carload." I pointed out that I had two bricks of .22LR ammo on the table, and noted that the only car that would be a "load" for was a Barbie Corvette.
The only point is that they are an item of common use and won’t even remotely go away even if you banned all of them right now. More guns than people just testifies how popular they are and how small the numbers of abuse cases are compared to their presence in numbers. “More guns than people” can only ever work in favor of the 2A.
Zelenskyy would have loved to have more guns than people. Unfortunately, he didn’t, lol
Why should Americans surrender any ability to defend their lives and property from tyrannical governments (or even overthrow them if that becomes necessary)? Sure, it wouldn't be easy, but it would be next to impossible if we were completely disarmed.
Of course, you and your ilk want to tyrannize the rest of us, so gun control is always a step in the right direction for you.
EXACTLY! Which is why I absolutely need an F-14 fighter to go up against thermonuclear weapons.
You’re too stupid to even operate a can opener. Which would be far deadlier in my hands than an F-14 in yours.
Think through such scenaria more realistically. Joe Biden said Americans better get Nukes and F-15 fighters to take on government. This is the best argument ever made in favor of the 2nd Amendment. As if he were ready to command the military to use such weapons against his citizens…
Yes, when I hear stuff like that i have to conclude that AR-15s are in fact just bare minimum and we should really talk about appropriate expansions to the arsenal of the people. Thank you for bringing that up.
Oh scary, he mentioned a fifty year old retired fighter, and thermonuclear weapons. He's tote serious guys. He is so well informed. How will I retort?
No, Tom Cruise shot down two "5th Generation Migs" in Maverick with an F14..so...you know...Totally believable.
Speaking of "well informed," where did you get the idea that the F15 is retired? It's still in production.
Joe Friday, is that you?
I wouldn't advise deer hunting with your AR-15. One shot, and the deer has a hole in its side the size of your head. Of course, even a .22 can put a hole the size of some gun owners' heads in the side of a deer. . .
This is a person who has not fired a AR-15, and does not hunt. AR-15s are frequently banned for hunting due to being insufficiently powerful for clean kills. A standard hunting rifle tends to be more powerful than an AR-15.
“One shot and the deer has a hole in IT-beheerders size of your head”
You are totally ignorant about firearms. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Maybe the time had come to let juvenile records follow people long into adulthood. I know people who are just as stupid in their fifties as they were in their teens.
How about no, and fuck you instead?
Succinct and to the point
*chef's kiss*
The powers that be (leftists and all of our institutions) are waging a comprehensive war on the middle, working, and small business class.
Not figuratively, but literally.
It's going to get much worse.
To tell you the truth, while this law isn't good by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly violates shall not be infringed, it's far better than some of the shit that they've tried to pass recently. Not endorsing it, don't get me wrong, but I don't know, I'm not as worked up about it as I probably should be. Unfortunately, and this is probably part of my ambivalence, the only person who I would vote out that voted for this bill doesn't come up until 2024, and I already detest Tester for a variety of other reasons.
I hate red flag laws, which sound good in theory but aren't practical and as Zeb pointed out probably result in fewer people seeking mental health aid than any crimes they may prevent. The juvenile records thing is bothersome, as is the so called boyfriend loophole (who hasn't dated someone who is vindictive and may use this to get back at someone) so I really should be more upset. Maybe I'm just becoming so numb to the constant attacks on our liberty that it fails to raise the ire it should. Maybe we are in such dangerous times, in regards to liberty, that it's started to become blase.
Don't worry he'll bring Pearl Jam in for another re-election stunt.
Oh he'll get a hunting license in 2024 so he can take a picture pheasant hunting and show up for harvest and drive a harvester for 20 minutes to establish his farm cred. Like he always does. Isn't on the farm or own a license the other five years, but 2024 he'll be all cowboy boots and 12 gu to try and show his Montana roots.
"Not endorsing it, don't get me wrong, but I don't know, I'm not as worked up about it as I probably should be. "
The real nut punch is the extension of juvenile convictions. I have worked on behalf of young adults trying to expunge their records. You have to understand how difficult state governments make it. It generally requires you to go in front of a judge and argue that you have "rehabilitated yourself" in the eyes of the public. That judge having a bad day? Sorry. Some DA decides they need to look tough for the next election? Too bad. After that you have to personally chase down all the agencies that have records, and provide court orders that the data be scrubbed.
Before this law, after doing that, in the eyes of the law you were never convicted- that is what expungement means. But now a young adult always has to worry that their expungement won't stick- that some background check will come back negative because of data leakage from the fed. That then puts them into a situation with an employer where they are technically correct (they have not been convicted), but where prejudicial information is now common knowledge. And of course, we can expect future laws authorizing this information for other uses in the future.
For what? Because some kid had the wrong color skin and had the book thrown at him for having drugs? Because he got involved in gangs? Because he joined up with the wrong people and vandalized a school one night?
Once again, we see the old and elite (many of them having benefited themselves from Expungement) fucking over kids for their own benefit. They did it during COVID, they do it with Social Security, and now they are doing it here. And the sad thing is that if a kid goes and protests in the wrong way, there is a good chance this law will come to play as the same elites throw the book at them.
It is absolutely these little things that should infuriate us. This is a huge camel's nose issue that is eroding one of the few examples of a rehabilitative and forgiving government left in this country.
I'm sure you're right. Unfortunately, to many Americans this is going to sound reasonable and opposition to it will be purposely misconstrued. It's a difficult law to argue against. Especially in sound bites. It's the evilness of it.
Is it? How hard is it to say "This will do nothing to stop the crimes you are angry about, and instead degrade the privacy of everyone in the country. It will make people less likely to seek mental health treatment when they need it, and make it far more difficult for rehabilitated adults to recover from the mistakes of their past."
No the problem is EXACTLY what Raspberry says below. They want to "Do Something" And this is absolutely the least they can do. And it is being done to the right people- crazies, criminals and wife beaters.
I agree but it sounds so reasonable to anyone who isn't paying attention.
Unfortunately, I also don't think that there will be a plausible path to stopping passage based on how difficult it is to argue against this bill in soundbites, it requires in depth conversations and some abstract thinking, which means the majority of the public won't even bother. It sounds reasonable, especially as the way the majority of the media will present it. So the only hope is the courts, no matter how tenuous that hope may be. Maybe it's not ambivalence but resignation that I'm truly feeling.
I have some concerns from an incrementalist stand point as well. I think if this is passed, we will see the process take place.
1) Law is passed
2.a) If the law is enforced, we will see disparate outcomes for many reasons, but the simple known fact is that certain minority groups have more issues on their records. Whether their record SHOULD be like this or not, both sides agree they are. They will thus be impacted by this law more often and have their rights restricted more frequently.
2.b) Or, the law just is selectively enforced by the DAs to prevent disparate outcomes or the conviction of sympathetic defendants. We see this now with our gun laws. Strawbuying cases are often not enforced in many jurisdictions.
3) Things won't change much, and we will soon have further cries of "we have to do something."
This general process applies to a tremendous amount of criminal legislation in our nation, and has led to a huge amount of laws enforced almost entirely based on prosecutorial discretion.
Again, I don't disagree. I am not arguing for the law, just wondering how likely it will be to stop it. The other side is to well organized.
Don't get me wrong, I think anyone who completes their parole without a violation should be able to get back their rights or at least be able to challenge to get them back.
What is really interesting is that I was reading some senators claiming that they were getting "Tens of Thousands" of phone calls to their office demanding that they "Do Something".
You know, if I was running the Disinformation Governance Board, I'd be pretty fucking skeptical of that claim. I would be super interested in finding out if there were a disinformation campaign going around making it seem like there is a groundswell of support for legislation. Because as near as I can tell from polling and just looking around the country, there was no sudden overnight change from Uvalde anywhere except in Washington.
Actually I can imagine it is happening, these groups are really good at organizing and using resources. US in the other side are far less capable. People bash the NRA, but they are by far the best at organizing. It's like Nardz idiotic comment about Vets not rising up, without organization you're doomed to failure.
This is why people should have extra identities they can fall back on.
A neighbor of mine was with some older kids from school, one of whom had his parents' car without permission (or a license) when they were involved in an accident with injuries . Everyone stayed at the scene, but all 5 of the kids were arrested for GTA, accident with Gross Bodily Harm, etc.
He was booked, released and nol prossed, but just the ARREST was enough to screw up his enlistment into the military, years later. Once the mess was all cleared up, they had to go through the same process AGAIN when he got his security clearance to handle nukes.
Imagine all of the ways that peoples' lives can be made miserable by the bureaucrats if this abortion is passed.
I agree that this bill is a lot less bad than the "assault weapons" and "high-capacity mag" bans they were talking about. But I'm starting to think maybe that was the point. It's like a "big ask" sales pitch where they put out talk of big sweeping bans and make you feel like you came out on top when they instead just impose defacto waiting periods and empower the state to approve no-due-process confiscation orders.
Oh, I think that's pretty obviously been there strategy for decades now. What I haven't yet seen, and no Trump wasn't the answer, is someone who can successfully organize to counter this shit. Someone who is articulate and able to organize. I don't see a Franklin, a Henry, an Adams (despite his subsequent actions), a Jefferson, etc. I think people wanted Trump to be that person, and so they forgave him a lot of things. I see a desire but we're still to disorganized to resist. We're still to busy fighting each other to be successful.
There's never the answer. But Trump has been the best answer in a very long time, and should not be passed up.
Right, so our side needs to go on offense and work on extracting little chunks from the other side too.
The sacred Second Amendment! Because who knows when the commie socialists will unleash the federal storm troopers to kick down our doors in the dead of night and confiscate our precious guns. Never mind that another generation of American schoolchildren is being traumatized because they have the misfortune to live in an increasingly insane society. American exceptionalism indeed.
Oh another idiotic take.
No, no, he's pretty well right.
Only in this braindead country do we think more guns is the solution to gun violence.
Feel free to face a gun without one.
Did you call in the Act Blue buddies?
Only a brain dead Marxist fuck like you won’t take responsibility for these shootings. They’re all your fault. See below.
Only among braindead anti-gunners will you find people who think that it's better to face an attacker with empty hands, while the cops listen to you die.
But hey, let's have another reason article about how terrible it is for schoolchildren to wear a mask.
Laughable if it weren't so tragic.
I agree making children wear masks in schools would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.
It’s terrible for schoolchildren to be at the mercy of democrat policy.
Do you really think punishing law abiding citizens by abridging their rights will stop evil people from committing evil? If so you're are a special kind of moron.
If you think doing nothing is the answer, you are a special kind of moron.
But it appears you've proven it already.
I'm not saying nothing, I've given my solution multiple times. Harden schools, allow teachers to carry, make concealed carry easier, let people protect themselves. More liberty not less. Idiot.
You can't stop evil with laws but you can prevent people from protecting themselves from evil through laws. All you fucking gun control idiots deprive people of the right to protect themselves while doing nothing to actually stop the evil.
Gonna add a small comment here. Enforce the laws already on the books. There's a lot, they are inconsistently or actively not enforced.
Very true.
"If you think doing nothing is the answer, you are a special kind of moron."
For the benefit of the thread, this is Raspberry's favorite fallback. She pulls this every time someone expects her to justify some action by the government. Soldier points out that this bill does nothing to deal with the violence, and she says "Well then you gots to do something."
This means she never actually has to form a lucid thought. Either do what the crazies say, or you aren't doing something!
In reality, to a leftist "doing nothing" means refusing to infringe on a clearly-established right.
Executing murderers is far from doing nothing.
There’s nothing to do. If you don’t like that answer, you can fuck off to Europe or Canada.
No, it doesn't stop evil people. But it can give the appearance of stopping some evil people that will be credible to the political center, and appearances are often enough to mollify them long enough for you to resume momentum the other way.
is being traumatized because they have the misfortune to live in an increasingly insane society.
Well you have this part of the picture right.
Yes, if he's referring to CRT and Marxist indoc in schools.
And the psychological damage it's doing to young people.
Why not work on fixing the insane part?
Nope, it isn’t the guns getting kids killed. They’re just tools. Guns were more accessible when I was a kid. These shootings weren’t happening. So that isn’t what changed. The real problem is YOU. Your stupid ideas, stupid candidates, and idiotic policies, that have created an ongoing surge of vicious psychopaths , with both the capacity and desire to commit mass murder of even small children.
You drug little boys, emasculate them, and keep their natural aggression bottled up in an incredibly unhealthy and unpredictable manner. A small percentage have built in sociopathic tendencies that would, under normal circumstances, play out in a mostly benign fashion. Instead, they now are twisted into full on psychopaths.
Good job democrats. Your chickens have come home to roost. You have an ocean of blood on your hands.
Interesting perspective. So progressive mollycoddling and artificial restrictions of natural biological energy lead to direct, unnatural outbursts. Makes sense.
Oh fuck off. You have no god given right to have zero regulations on getting a weapon of war.
Maybe stop substituting a piece of metal for your personality you fucking hopeless shitheads.
Has a friendly firearms enthusiast ever taken you out for some trigger time?
I think your approaches are too empathic for scumshit like shitlunches.
You'll never persuade someone by first putting them on the defensive.
I wish this was the answer though. Well, I got myself a .22 handgun to “introduce” people to the hobby, like you seem to suggest. Admittedly, it does seem to work with less extreme individuals. Seems generally viable. Not shitlunches though.
It does work. I've introduced a few people to shooting.
Good job.
*checks 2nd Amendment*
Looks like you're wrong, shitlunches.
Maybe stop substituting a piece of metal for your personality
*looks around nervously, puts down rainbow flag*
lol.
*takes off 20 earrings and 3 nose rings*
Oh....
. . .but she will still ACT like there is a ring in her nose, with which she will be led around . . .
Strawmen and insults are all the gun-control crowd ever offers.
I will note that you used "god" in the lowercase and thus assert that Ares does, in fact, want me to have weapons of war.
What ‘weapon of war’ do you speak of?
Knives obviously. Carried by every soldier.
Words can cut like a knife.
But it feels so right.
I feel your pain loser. Range day last weekend was awesome. I am considering making another small donation to NRA and GOA after reading your comment.
Life’s good.
Governments make war and use us as fodder. You take guns out of our hands governments will still have weapons of war and use us as fodder.
Meanwhile, people who don't give a shit about laws will buy, sell and steal government weapons of war on the black market and law abiding citizens will be left with nothing to defend themselves.
Yes I very well do and fuck you and your Democrat buddies.
I’m sorry you don’t understand basic fucking English, have the charisma of Dick Cheney fucking a goat, and are a racist piece of shit. Maybe try and work on bettering yourself.
Fuck off, slaver.
Well, what do you expect out of a bipartisan bill? "Bipartisan" just means that they won't take turns fucking you, it's just going to be a free-for-all gang bang pile on.
Can we just change the use of Bipartisan to Bukake?
Andrew Heaton, a comedian behind many of the videos here on Reason, has a podcast called "The Political Orphanage."
In one he weighs gun control from a Star Trek perspective. What would Data, Spock and Scotty have to say? His conclusion was to end the drug war and make multiple DUI convictions a red flag. Can't say I agree with him 100%, but he's worth a listen.
I appreciate you pimpin' that boys podcast so hard today. It is good and Heaton is good.
I've been listening to it in the car lately. Then on earbuds when I walk on the beach. And in the car again when I drive home. Living in Maine sucks ass.
Too many mosquitoes.
Black flies. It's the Maine state bird.
Yes, runaway corrupt gov't IS a problem. Yes, we have to protect ourselves against that. BUT:
If you don't like the current gun bill (almost no one does, including me), WHAT'S YOUR PLAN to keep guns away from criminals and crazy people? Maybe (temporarily) keeping them away from a very few people is the price we pay TO SAVE KIDS'/ADULTS' LIVES?
Maybe temporarily suspending access to a lawyer, trial by jury, presumption of innocence for a few people is the price we have to pay to save (put in some sympathetic group here). You sound just as naive as the sentence I just wrote. I was ambivalent a few minutes ago, but now, after reading you proggies, I'm more upset at this law. Thanks for convincing me of the stupidity of this government overreach.
None of these laws would have stopped the most recent tragedies, or the vast majority of prior ones. So you are okay with taking away liberty, even if temporarily, while doing nothing to actually help prevent tragedies. That sums up the entire gun control movement. Make it harder for people to defend themselves while doing almost nothing to stop criminals. Then when those laws inevitably fail, take away more liberties from law abiding citizens. Rinse and repeat, until you realize you've destroyed liberty while the evil people continue to exist and perpetrate tragedies.
"WHAT'S YOUR PLAN to keep guns away from criminals and crazy people"
My plan is to have the government forfeit your life savings to me, to shoot your dog, and burn down your house.
You might say you don't like that. You might even say it is not likely to stop gun violence. But at least we are doing something, right? And I'll tell you what, it would hurt a hell of a lot fewer people's rights and have exactly the same impact on these crazy gun sprees.
My plan is to have the government forfeit your life savings to me, to shoot your dog, and burn down your house.
So you want a drug dealer to run into his house followed by the cops?
"If it saves even one life, and we don't worry about the broken windows along the way, it was worth it."
Where's your evidence that any gun-control measure keeps guns away from the bad people?
Wrong question.
A better question would be how to minimize deaths in the event of a mass shooting. Because they're going to happen. So what do you do? Maybe allow people to protect themselves. Maybe instead of
shelter in placewait to be killed people should run away in a zig-zag pattern to make themselves harder to hit. Maybe the courts should tell the cops that they have a duty to serve and protect.Here is what will not help: laws. It's pretty simple. Someone intent on murder doesn't care if they acquire the weapon illegally, while Joe Shmo law abiding citizen is penalized for obeying the law.
This is an unpopular answer, and perhaps me at my most cynical (and perhaps most Catholic): people also need to reckon with the problem of evil in the world. There are things we can try, knobs we can turn, but there are limits to our ability to prevent lone actors from inflicting great pain on people. Facing that fact can help provide protection against the run towards authoritarianism that happens every time there is an event like this.
This is true of school shootings, it was true of 9/11.
I am very in favor of enforcing laws on the books now. So, things like Straw Buyer Laws. They are rarely enforced due to the strawbuyers themselves often being sympathetic. I believe it was the DA of Philadelphia who was recently discussing how they were actively refusing to prosecute most gun possession crimes because they have a disparate impact.
Argue that either way, but adding additional laws that will then be ignored likely doesn't solve anything either. This is a case where enforcing the law as exists now would likely do more to help then much of what I've read in this new bill.
There's also the question of what you want to guard against, because gun deaths tend to get lumped together from a few different categories. Of those, Suicide is far and away the largest category for gun deaths. Red Flag laws may very well have a positive impact in that area (whether it's prudent or not, I don't think so but I am open to the argument).
So, at least some non-trivial part of the problem is laws are not enforced anyway and I'm not convinced passing a new law will change that.
If the question is that of how to deal with mass murders, woo nelly. I don't know. I get more philosophical on this one, but it's not clear to me this will help either, but I'm open to discussion. There's a real problem here though of mass shootings not otherwise associated with a crime (most mass shootings are gang related) are rare and rare events are hard to account for. Why is it an American specific disease? I really don't know. I really don't.
It isn't an American only disease we just think it is due to our media.
I read a proposal from a guy here in Nevada to eliminate background checks in favor of punching a "P" on the ID and DL of a prohibited possessor, and enforcing the law against transferring a firearm to a prohibited possessor, while adding a reward for reporting an attempt by a prohibited possessor to buy.
The result would be that every legitimate seller would ask for ID to verify that it doesn't have the punch. No bureaucrat involvement, but an incentive for sellers and disincentive for prohibited possessors.
What's the line, vets?
Be honest- there is no line.
You'll pretend your oath doesn't apply to steps X or Y, ad infinitum as they cement their totalitarianism piece by piece.
So tired of this bullshit from you. If you feel so adamant, go ahead and start the dance.
Ever think maybe we actually understand what combat is like and maybe we aren't willing to start the horrors of a civil war, if there are any other options left? Of course not, you're a cosplayer tough guy who pushes it's all over conspiracy theories and whines we vets aren't doing enough while you don't do shit either.
Starting to wonder if Nardz is actually an FBI informant trying to perpetrate violence so they can arrest political opponents.
See?
There isn't a damn thing the government could do that soldiermedic76 would find inexcusable.
Whatever, agent Nardz. What rebellion have your started?
I don't see you gathering a militia, or doing anything but calling for others to put themselves at risk while not doing so yourself. How much money is the FBI paying you to induce violence they can them sweep in and arrest, further discrediting the right? It worked so well for you with the Whitmer case, didn't it?
If he is then he's not a very good one.
Great post. This is not sarcastic.
I mean gestapo, lockdowns, forced drug experiments, rigged elections, political imprisonment, thoughtcrime persecution, state directed terrorism, naked fascism, blatant corruption, and economic warfare on the American people apparently don't cross the line or require defense.
Pretty hard to imagine there's anything they can't do.
Go ahead, you call for others to use violence, right now put your money where your mouth is tough guy?
Here is a hint. The Revolution didn't happen spontaneously. It only occurred after ten years of organization and protests and preparing. Idiots like Nardz think you can start a civil war at the drop of a hat. The actual Revolution and Civil war required a lot of infrastructure in place before they started. A couple veterans or citizens deciding to take matters into their own hands won't start a revolution. But they will create backlash and set back any chance of retaining liberty. If violence is required it would have to be organized. One of the reasons, besides war being terrible, and civil wars being the worst kinds of war, that we haven't rose up yet is that no one has really done the groundwork necessary to create a viable opposition. But idiots like Nardz cosplay rebels. Because it sounds romantic to them.
Of all the possible responses to my points, THIS is what soldiermedic chose to go with.
Pretty fucking revealing.
Yeah, I actually understand how things work, and don't try to convince others to do what I'm not willing to do myself, unlike Nardz, who wants others to risk their lives while he does nothing but post bad memes on line.
Isn't it revealing that Nardz always says violence is the only answer but never offers to participate in that violence, instead wants others to act on his behalf and when we don't, he ridicules us for not doing something he doesn't appear willing to do himself? Gee, I wonder why?
What's revealing is that I made a comment that there is no line the government will cross that vets as a whole won't excuse, and one vet responded by making personal attacks instead of disputing the point.
Yeah it's revealing that you keep crying that others won't commit violence but you never offer to participate in that violence. It's very revealing. Either a false flag, or you're a coward. Ever stop to think it's not nearly as easy as you think it is? Who is in charge? What infrastructure is in place? How will logistics be handled? What tactical and strategic goals should be seized? You whine others won't fight but never once offered to fight yourself. You're right that is revealing.
I know I'm late to the game, Soldier, but I have said the same about Nardz in the past- though I cannot decide if he is an Agent or just a really good OBL-style parody.
And I also notice that when I actually state the reasons why many of us haven't raised up (lack of organization being the most important and also lack of popular support) you ridiculed that notion. I'm not the one trying to invite violence that I expect others to conduct. You're the only one playing that game.
Where's your cite of me inviting violence?
How about this entire thread, saying vets aren't living up to their oath? If you don't mean violence than what do you mean? Because I called my senators today. I vote. I give to NRA and other gun organizations. And you actually have stated more than once that violence is the only answer.
9 of the NRA's top 11 R senators (by $ received) voted for this bill.
Good for calling your senator. Let's hope your faith in the system finally works.
I've not once dismissed the need for organization.
And that lack of organization is partially why I have no faith in vets to not keep making excuses until its too late (and it might already be).
So what do you want me to do, then?
Nardz, what do you suggest people do then?
I will hopefully be a naturalized citizen of the US a few weeks from now. What do you suggest I do? As an LPR, I’ve pretty much exactly been doing what soldiermedic76 describes, contacted my senators, donated, spoke out, minus the voting because I can’t vote in federal elections at this point.
Maybe I’m just lacking creativity, but what else would it be that we do? I do make use of the 1st amendment a lot and also tell people why being armed is the best thing that can ever happen to a population.
What else canto be done? Well, I guess I will reach out and organize more.
But seriously, there’s many smart people on here. If you have any strategy I potentially haven’t thought about, I’d be glad to hear it.
Lol soldiermedic asked the exact same question in parallel. Cheers bro!
I suggest people accept the fact that the globalists/left are psychotic totalitarians who do not have good intentions and will not stop, and that there is no nice way out.
You can argue, vote, protest all you want, it's not going to stop them.
Let's face the horrible reality of our situation honestly: peace is not an option.
You respond to violence with violence, or you give up and allow violence to be done to you.
There is no "voting your way out" of where we are.
There is no way to work within the system to roll back to liberty and opportunity.
2020 was a phase shift.
We are in the early stages of totalitarianism and tyranny more powerful than has ever before existed in human history.
So, you are calling for violence. It was obvious. But at least you admit it now. So you are calling for others to commit violence but appear to be unwilling to undertake violence yourself. Thank you for playing.
There is no "voting your way out" of where we are.
There was a famous person who also believed as you do. He did not think the politicians could compromise or legislate or vote their way to do the right thing. His name was John Brown. He didn't think the government would ever end slavery. So he took up arms to start a slave rebellion.
Before the Civil War, there was John Brown. Who is going to be the John Brown this time around? Will it be you?
Fuck off, soldiermedic, I'm not calling for violence- I'm saying it's inevitable.
Either two sided with the decision up in the air, or one sided with people who give a shit about freedom and independence submitting to the whims of totalitarian overlords.
But thanks for getting more pissed off at me than the people coming for your family and way of life.
Keep the faith.
"Fuck off, soldiermedic, I'm not calling for violence- I'm saying it's inevitable."
No you are not. This is your backtrack that you always do when people call you on this shit.
You started this thread by condemning Vets because they aren't guarding "the line". If violence is inevitable, and you insist that Vets should be holding the line, then you are absolutely arguing that Vets need to be violent.
"No you are not. This is your backtrack that you always do when people call you on this shit.
You started this thread by condemning Vets because they aren't guarding "the line". If violence is inevitable, and you insist that Vets should be holding the line, then you are absolutely arguing that Vets need to be violent."
No, I started it off by asking a question. I followed that with an opinion. That opinion isn't a call for action, it's a fucking assessment.
An assessment that looks accurate, at least in one case, as soldiermedic's response was to attack me personally, admit the possibility that lines had been crossed, then offer excuses/reasons for action not to be taken.
But answer this: what the fuck does it matter if I was calling or not calling for violence?
What the fuck does it matter if I'm willing/able or unwilling/unable to do something myself?
What the fuck does it matter if I'm a coward or a suicide bomber?
Does this shift in the conversation to personally attack me, anonymous internet poster, have any bearing on the situation America is in, what is likely to happen in the future, and what actions may or may not be necessary?
Good that you guys know who the real bad guy is. Viciously attack guy who says things you don't like on internet, continue appeasing totalitarian powers in the real world.
Awesome stuff.
And I'm curious about what you think should be done and what the likely outcomes are.
Apparently, anyone who even implies violence is necessary/legitimate at this point is just so horrible, so tell us: what to do?
And what are you going to do differently than what you've previously done and has led us to this point?
Or are we just going to shrug our soldiers, ignore parallels with the rise of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, confident that "it can't happen here" and all is just normal politics?
There will be a ramp up, to be sure. But it’s becoming a likelier outcome every day.
I'm not saying it isn't likely. I'm saying we aren't yet to the point where it would be effective. It requires a lot of ramp up if we want to win.
But totes can't talk about it.
Gotta get some more totalitarian structures in place, then we can start talking about coming up with ideas
Talk about it. But don't expect others to do what you are not offering to do yourself.
Point to any time, ever I said not to talk about it, or even implied that? In fact I said it needs to be organized which specifically requires us to talk and organize before we act. But sure, I mean we should not talk about it. God, you are almost as insipid as Joe Friday, Lying Jeffy and Tony.
In fact, I've asked you several times now, what you have done, or are willing to do, and you haven't answered, instead you've kept insisting I and other vets do something. What do you want us to do, exactly?
I'm not going to answer, fed.
You can make whatever fucking assumptions you want.
Every single time I've asked "what's the line" you've said nothing beyond "it hasn't been crossed yet" and gotten angry if pushed back on.
I didn't say it hadn't been crossed. But you want me to act. What exactly do you want me to do then? Huh? Yeah, keep playing the fed card, it's very effective. I brought it up first as a joke so now you can claim you're lack of answering is because I'm the fed. That was a tactical mistake on my part. Because I just gave you an excuse not to fucking actually state what you want me to do. Because everyone knows what you're asking for. We aren't idiots. Keep pretending and lying. I never once said the line hasn't been crossed. I've stated that, for over a year, in multiple posts, often in response to you, that I plan on using voting, contacting my elected representatives, donating to organizations that support my views, etc. Every time you keep saying it's to late. That I am breaking my oath. So, if not violence (which we all know your protests against this are bullshit) what do you want me and other vets to do? I'm pretty sure at this point everyone is well aware you won't do shit except blame others, so I won't ask you again. I want to know what you want me and vets to do? Please, if you're not calling for violence, what are you calling for?
I want you to fucking admit it's been crossed and stop pretending like we're in some ho-hum normal government bullshit that's just "nice people who merely disagree".
Hell, you don't even need to admit the line's been crossed. Just acknowledge that it's maybe been crossed, that there is a line, and that violence might be necessary
So you are calling for violence? Thank you. And calling for me to conduct that violence but don't seem willing to do so yourself. Thank you.
I don't give a shit what you do.
You seem to have made up your mind.
Best of luck, asshole.
In this political climate? In 2022? With this administration putting on show trials AS WE SPEAK?
Yeah, you’d be fucking stupid to talk about anything you were planning, even if it was just silent protest in your local 4th of July parade. Especially online.
Fair.
Kinda backs up my point though...
People believe wrongly that the south seceded because Lincoln won, but the truth is there had been a secessionist movement in the south for decades, and many held political office. All I'm saying is Nardz calls for others to do something and his degrading vets because we haven't acted (whatever that means if he isn't calling for violence) is the empty whining of someone who isn't willing to back up his talk with action. He has stated multiple times voting isn't enough. Political action isn't enough, we're passed those points. Then he wants to know when we vets are going to live up to our paths. The implications are clear, but when called out on it he gaslights like a mother fucker.
Also remember that only about 30% of the people openly supported the Revolution. Another third were declared Loyalists (most of whom fled to Canada), and the remainder took no action either way.
Look how mad it gets at someone pointing out that totalitarian government is here, destroying life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
"Hey guys, this dude must be a secret agent for our totally legitimate government who's here to trick us into getting arrested for our speech!"
Self own if there ever was one
So you admit it? All your tough talk is a false flag op?
The only person pushing violence but not offering to take part in it is Nardz. Exactly like the plants in the Whitmer case.
To be fair, I’ve been predicting that for a decade now myself.
Yeah, it's not even a conspiracy because they've been caught red handed so many times. I'm from North Idaho, I remember what they did to Randy Weaver.
I’m in Spokane. Weaver was almost a celebrity for a long time. Hell of a way to become publicly known. All because he just wanted everyone to leave him and his family alone.
I remember the KXLY reporter stating when the FBI gave the shoot to kill order for anyone carrying a weapon, stating it's Idaho during hunting season, that's like every other person (or something similar).
Why are you so bent on others perpetuating violence you aren't willing to take part in? If it's so important to you, why are you trying to convince me to conduct it while you do nothing other than talk tough on the internet?
Who the fuck is making plans, you oath breaking bitch?
You hop on here to cry about talk of the necessity to do something besides bending over and taking it up the ass some more. You're more upset by that than actual totalitarianism being implemented.
"Shut down businesses, imprison people without trial, criminalize speech... but don't you dare call Daddy Gov illegitimate!"
You keep making my damn point every time you freak out about honest, if vague, talk.
I don't see you doing shit other than posting shit and expecting me to do what you don't seem willing to do yourself. Keep crying others won't act when all you do is post shit on line and whine others won't commit violence on your behalf at your request. Fucking act or shut the fuck up. The closest you ever got to actually defending any rights with violence is when you rubbed one off fantasizing about being the next Patrick Henry.
Yeah, if your point is that you are to big a coward to actually fight but you have no problem asking others to fight on your behalf, I am proving your point. We all know what kind of chickenhawk you are. Willing for others to risk their lives but won't do so yourself. Calls for war, but isn't willing to actually fight. Yeah, it's easy to call for revolution, as long as someone else is at risk isn't it cosplayer? Now go along and jack off to your Garden flag, pretending you will actually do anything other than post tough.
Damn, looks like soldiermedic might be an actual fbi plant...
Yeah, says the guy trying to invite violence but never is willing to commit violence himself.
You, soldiermedic, are trying to incite me specifically to commit violence.
I am talking generally about whether or not there's a point vets will recognize as necessitating armed response, and suggesting there is no such point because reasonable lines have already been massively crossed.
You seem to agree with the latter, and further wish to target me specifically for speaking opinions you think should be verboten (despite confirming their accuracy).
Yes, because you keep asking me to commit violence on your behalf. So, I am calling you out to put up or shut up.
Nardz "why won't you vets live up to your paths?"
Me, a vet, "I'm tired of your shit, here is a list of reasons, starting with violence and war are a last resort.'
Nardz 'who said violence'
Me 'i vote, I call my senators, I donate money'
Nardz 'that isn't enough'
Me 'what else do you want me to do?'
Nardz 'live up to your oath'
Me 'so you're calling for violence but not willing to do aforesaid violence'
Nardz 'uhn uh, I'm not calling for violence, I'm calling for you to keep your oath'
Me 'what does that mean?'
Nardz....
Holy shit, dude, that is some psychotic interpretation
That is almost exactly how this thread has gone. The only psychotic thinking is you who is gaslighting like a mother fucker now.
Face it Nardz like we say around here, you're all hat and no cows.
One of my more paranoid acquaintances accused me of being a CIA asset. If I am, they owe me a shitload of back pay.
You and me both brother.
He’s one of the people who think Sandy Hook was completely staged and buys into everything Alex Jones says. Everyone is a crisis actor.
Please note never once has Nardz stated 'I am ready to fight, who is with me?' No, it's always 'why aren't you vets fighting yet'. Notice it's always the other guy Nardz wants to fight, he has never offered to fight himself.
You mean, why I haven't explicitly stated I will take up arms?
Why do I point out that the people who took an oath, and public money, to defend the constitution of the US don't have any intention of actually doing so?
Still deflecting I see, trying to get me to do what you aren't willing to do. Why is that?
The smart money at this point would be to organize in large numbers to shut shit down. Gandhi did that to great effect gains the British. And he almost completely avoided violence.
Yeah. The key is organization. Nardz calling for us to keep our paths, but not specifying how, is just utter bullshit. We all know what he meant now he is trying to gaslight as bad as any proggie.
Bullshit, sm.
You reacted emotionally to me doubting vet fidelity to the oath... then basically said "yall are on your own" and listed the reasons why my doubts are accurate, without providing any alternative answer.
You have yet to give any answers other than ask why we vets haven't acted yet. And then denied you meant violence. Keep making this about me, rather than owning your own actions. You sound just like a proggie right now. Wanting others to act, degrading them for not acting, then crying when the table gets turned on you. I've asked multiple times what you will do or have done. Instead you keep saying it's on us vets for not acting while also not answering when I've asked how you want us to act. Your entire first post was emoting but I'm guilty of emoting. Yeah, okay, you are just as bad as any proggie for projecting your own shortcomings onto others. Yeah, I'm the problem, the one showing what it will actually take. You're the one insisting we "do something" but not actually willing to do any of the hard work yourself. I'm pointing out reality. I never said anything close to your on your own. Unless you think me asking you to put your money where your mouth is rather than asking others to do your dirty work is saying you're on your own. What have you done, tough guy, other than alienate possible allies?
Hell, man, Im doing that for you!
You name it, Ill wreck it.
Let’s Go Brandoooon!!!!
Organizing to shoot people or blow shit up is illegal. But there is a lot of civil disobedience that is very effective. Like a national trucker strike, or cutting off farm shipments to blue strongholds. Which forces Biden and his minions to be the bad guys.
I also recommend working to destroy the dominance the left has in entertainment and news media. At the rate Disney is going, they isn’t become vulnerable to a takeover, or at least the acquisition of enough shares to oust current management and install a less woke regime that will shitcan all the activist employees in their creative division.
So, there are legal, or at least peaceful avenues before everything goes ‘serf’s up!’.
Which I support fully, and things I've offered to Nardz in the past multiple times. I don't even rule out insurrection if needed, but acting without organization is doomed to failure. We need to organize and resist but it needs to be constructive.
Organizing specifically to shoot people or blow shit up is illegal. But you can legally organize for some other purpose, and then decide to shoot people or blow shit up.
I actually think if organized the right has a better than equal chance of winning a civil war, but it doesn't do any good until it's organized. A bunch of rednecks cosplaying just discredits any movement and is doomed to failure. The Colonies didn't revolt in 1765, they were to disjointed. They didn't revolt until 1775, and only after they had organized. Consolidated. But even that is only part of the story. It really began with King Williams War and the first joint military operations between the colonies that set the groundwork for the Colonial Congress to create an effective military force. Without that infrastructure, command and control, logistical base, a few veterans getting together and fighting won't do anything but get crushed. Idiots like Nardz think we can just take up our guns and our garden flags and be victorious, because they don't understand what it will actually take. And all the while they play right into the hands of the people they fear.
"Idiots like Nardz think we can just take up our guns and our garden flags and be victorious, because they don't understand what it will actually take."
Oh?
Hell of an assumption, but whatever you gotta tell yourself
While I've asked what you've done or are willing to do, you haven't given anything other than to attack vets for not doing enough. Additionally, I've given lists of what I've done, but that doesn't seem to be enough for you. All you ever do is cry that others aren't doing enough but have yet to state what you're doing or are willing to do.
You haven't said what you've done. You've said "vets have been in combat". Well, no shit.
As far as what you want from me, just seems you're fishing for fed frame-up material.
You really think you're defending vets or our government by attacking me?
soldiermedic76
June.22.2022 at 7:08 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
How about this entire thread, saying vets aren't living up to their oath? If you don't mean violence than what do you mean? Because I called my senators today. I vote. I give to NRA and other gun organizations. And you actually have stated more than once that violence is the only answer.
Your response:
9 of the NRA's top 11 R senators (by $ received) voted for this bill.
Good for calling your senator. Let's hope your faith in the system finally works.
I've not once dismissed the need for organization.
And that lack of organization is partially why I have no faith in vets to not keep making excuses until its too late (and it might already be).
So what do you want me to do? As a vet? You even responded to my list of what I've done by degrading it and saying to wasn't enough. Then you claim you aren't calling for violence. Bullshit. You are now fucking lying that I didn't list what I've done, when you fucking even responded to my comment stating what I've done. Keep it up dipshit. Keep it up. What else do you want us vets to do? Huh? Tell me. How else should we respond?
Nardz
June.22.2022 at 6:03 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
What's the line, vets?
Be honest- there is no line.
You'll pretend your oath doesn't apply to steps X or Y, ad infinitum as they cement their totalitarianism piece by piece.
That comment at 6:03 is what provoked you to attack me personally and demand I incriminate myself
I listed what I am doing. So, if you aren't calling for violence, what else would you have me do? This is at least the fourth time I've asked you. You state, I've stated there is no line. Never have said that. I have stated that I am not willing to resort to violence yet. That isn't the same as saying there is no line. I notice you lied, I proved you wrong, and then you revert to claiming there is no line. You are still calling for me to do something, and stating what I have other vets have done aren't enough. And still trying to pretend you aren't calling for violence. Your such an obvious bullshitter on this. Oh and go ahead and use the 'you're a fed (great reuse of my joke BTW) to justify your refusal to actually answer any question. Keep calling for others to act, attacking others for not acting, while you do nothing but play the keyboard warrior. It's so obvious to anyone. Ted on the other hand is actually volunteering. You are whining others haven't acted enough, while you don't do shit but whine and cry on the internet.
If the right did organize to take over it wouldn’t be a contest. The left are Lessie’s when they have to fight for themselves. Kyle Rittenhouse is living proof of that.
I believe you're right. I think the majority of the military would defect. I know red states control almost all the means of production and resources. The only thing we really lack is the financial infrastructure, which could make life more difficult. And how many on the left would really be willing to put up or shut up if faced with organized resistance? But until that resistance is organized, calling for vets to act, or anyone to act, is just bullshit.
Here's a hint, I'm not going to act on my own. You want to know what line needs to be crossed. You're asking the wrong question. The real answer is I'm already acting. As are a lot of veterans. We're donating, we're protesting, we're running for office, we're contacting our elected officials. Several lines have already been crossed, but any actions beyond the ones I listed require far more organization. It isn't like veterans get together and have secret meetings on how we're willing to defend the constitution. Until there is an organization effort, acting is counterproductive and doomed to failure. You claim you aren't calling for violence. I'm not sure what else you're actually calling for then? I also think, despite your protests, you are spouting off, blaming others for your own cowardice in not acting.
Also, for clarification, I don't actually think Nardz is an FBI agent or informer, but just another keyboard warrior, cosplayer, who attacks others while not doing anything himself. I don't expect him to actually give an answer as to what he wants vets to do, because we all know he means violence but he protested above he doesn't mean violence after I call him out for being a chickenhawk. He denigrated veterans and then got mad when I denigrated him. He wants me and other vets to act, but he sure does nothing but whine and call for others to act. Prove me wrong.
I'm not a leader, i will help organize resistance, hopefully peacefully, but I'm not the one to lead the efforts, it's not my best skill. The problem is no one is building coalitions to stop this. The LP is fighting amongst themselves. People like Nardz is denigrating others for not acting, ending up alienating potential allies. It's easy to call for action, far harder to make it stick.
Hope I'm wrong, but nothing you've said, and certainly not your triggered defense mechanism temper tantrum directed at me, gives me any confidence that we're not going to meekly descend into the totalitarian hellscape we're entering.
But hey, I'm sure participating in totalitarian USSA prescribed political process brings some measure of satisfaction.
Before they jail us for it at least.
Yeah, it's my fault you're to much of a chickenshit to do anything yourself. You want others to do what you aren't willing to do. Also, I knew all along that you were only calling for violence, despite your protestation. Thanks for proving it. You call for violence by others safe behind your keyboard. What a brave warrior you are.
The temper tantrum was you crying because veterans haven't resorted to violence the whole time you aren't willing to undertake violence. That is a temper tantrum. Oh those bad vets aren't rebelling, it's their fault, all while I stay safe behind my keyboard. Not my fault for being a chicken shit keyboard warrior expecting others to die but not myself. Fuck Nardz you just keep making it worse for yourself.
Everything I predicted you would say and do, you just proved I was correct in your last three posts. You are willing for others to conduct violence but I don't see you volunteering to participate. Fucking key board warrior. Go stroke off to your Gadsen Flag, you fucking cosplayer.
You can lash out at me all you want, it's not gonna change the fact that you're so upset because deep down you know I'm right.
I know I'm right that you're a chickenshit coward or a agent provocateur.
Totes rational thread from sm.
Real productive stuff.
By the way: how does whether or not I'm a chickenshit matter at all to the state of play?
I thoroughly enjoyed you calling out Nardz the keyboard commando.
GFY
"Something must be done!
Okay, hitting you over the head with a 2x4 is something.
Therefore we must all hit you over the head with a 2x4.
Line forms to the right.
Pretty much any gun control legislation fails to recognize God-given rights. Elections have consequences.
Wow, Mc Connell makes me look like less of a Wax Museum figure!
Where the hell are my strained peas and applesauce?
You dumped them down your diaper.
I am so fucking tired of this. Jesse and Sarc constantly bickering. NARDZ denigrating others who don't act. Me arguing with him (which was rather puerile of me). Let's face it, the proggies are winning because we're a circular firing squad. We aren't willing to work together. We all to busy measuring our own dicks, and arguing True Scotsman to resist properly. Ted actually gave a very good lists of what we should be doing. And it didn't require violence. Thank you, Ted. We need to stop the dick measuring, I'm more for liberty than you bullshit and start organizing and resisting. And yes, that means sometimes settling for less than perfect.
I actually agree with you. There is a lot that can be done to enact change non-violently. Of course it all starts with democratic participation itself. At the BARE MINIMUM, it means voting. But it also means getting involved with campaigns and/or petition drives, and contacting representatives as you did.
For some of the more radical ideas, such as, as Ted mentioned, "a national trucker strike, or cutting off farm shipments to blue strongholds", that can work too, but for those it would be helpful to have a clear idea of the objectives of such acts of civil disobedience. This type of thing worked in India because there was a clear objective - independence. This type of thing worked for the civil rights movement of the 60s because there was a clear objective - getting rid of Jim Crow. What would be the clear objective for this cause?
Good question, which comes with organizing. Defending Constitutional liberties is a good slogan but we definitely need to set goals. It's easy to mouth slogans, but we're past that point. I would suggest repealing the NFA, but not sure how many would support that. And that's part of the coalition building is maybe settling for less than we desire as long as it's in the right direction. How about universal carry, eliminate state assault weapons laws, eliminate any gun registration or state licenses for purchase? How about reinstating rights for non-violent offenders? Automatic sunsets on all federal laws after 20 years, unless they're passed as an amendment, through the correct process? A vote on term limits by the states? A procedure for recalling federal elected officials? Eliminating qualified immunity for all public officials? Just off the top of my head.
I would also suggest reappropriation of the HOR to reflect the population increase since 1920 and states adopting the Nebraska model for apportionment of electoral votes.
I'm also open to the idea that at state level, adoption of Georgia election rules, including for President, of automatic runoffs if no candidate achieves 50% (rather than ranked choice, but that is an option as well, I suppose).
Once again we're stabbed in the back by the GOP. Feckless _astards.
Some certainly. Remember which ones. And vote against them next time. Or vote for another party. Unfortunately, this betrayal is likely to dampen republican excitement for November, rather than protect them from pushback like they fear.
Who has the list of the 14 GOP senators that voted for this? Are any up for election, are any being primaried?
Keep playing by the rules, guys, since they'll certainly be applied to you (though leftists can act with impunity).
I'm sure if we wish really, really hard things won't get much, much, much worse.
After all, it can't happen here!
Gas isn't going to drop below $5/gallon in the future. Prices for basic necessities aren't coming down. Free speech isn't coming back. Our votes are worthless.
You will own nothing, and be happy (at least you'd better appear so).
Welcome to The New Normal!
Put up or shut up fuck face. I see you want everyone else to fight back with violence but not once have you volunteered to do so yourself. Fucking cosplayer. That's all you are. Prove me wrong, chickenshit.
You can't comprehend what the fuck I'm saying and have a sad emotional need to talk about this like a damn middle schooler.
I damn sure don't trust you enough to talk about what I would or would not do, especially after your breakdown here, and I have no confidence in your integrity.
No one can comprehend what you are saying. You say we got to do more, then when asked what you said nothing. Then actually stated we need to use violence than backtracked again. You blame others but aren't doing shit yourself.
So, what's really important isn't the reality of economic and psychological warfare being waged upon American people, but hating anonymous internet guy nardz and making sure to not think about anything else?
Yes, yes, let's obsess over "who is to blame" vs who needs to incriminate themselves on the internet.
Guess it's not ok to state, even imply, that vets may not be protecting and defending the constitution adequately.
I'm sorry I, mere civilian, haven't shown proper obsequiousness to soldiers who have so served government. My bad.
The State should probably drone me, right sm? I'm fairly certain that would upset you less than this conversation.
^Someone has played to much Far Cry and thinks he's a bad ass freedom fighter.
Also, you've been crying it's to late since forever, yet haven't yet acted. So, obviously your lack of actions is responsible for it being to late. Or do you think it's not also your responsibility to act? God, you sound just like the fucking left, and country club Republicans. You want everyone else to act but you aren't willing to act yourself. Fuck. You are just as much a detriment to liberty as the left, because you're a useful idiot.
It's amazing how butthurt simply making a few points has you (and how emotionally vital your assumptions about me are, despite their irrelevance to your life or the issues at hand).
There's a lesson there.
Unfortunately, I don't think you'll try to figure it out.
And yes, I am responsible for it getting to this point. I've seen this shit coming for a decade and didn't do enough to stop it. Whether I could have accomplished anything or not is irrelevant to the fact that I didn't.
I broke no oath, but apparently that oath doesn't much matter anyway.
And I'm sorry it so terribly upsets you, but I'm going to keep speaking the truth.
Man the fuck up and deal with it.
Oh we broke an oath, how? Because we haven't acted how you think we should? You still haven't yet stated what you want us to do? You did use the word violence above then backtracked. As for calling me the butthurt one. Fuck, you started out butthurt. You didn't hurt my feelings, instead you just revealed yourself to be the chickenshit cosplayer I suspected you were all along. You want others to do the dirty work. You keep calling for others to act. So what if you didn't swear a fucking oath,? Does that mean you get a pass? Fucking idiot. Fuck you can't make a cognitive argument, instead you keep calling for others to act, and we all know you mean violence, you even admit it and then when pressed on it you backtrack like the little bitch you are. Run along keyboard warrior. You're so tough. Fucking ROTFLMAO at you're such an obvious tinplated patriot. You accuse me and other vets of not betraying our paths, but you don't say what you want us to do? Just admit you want us to start a rebellion, because we all know that's what you want. I'm sure you won't fucking join in, because that's the sort of person you are. We're all certain you won't join in tough guy. You didn't even have the balls to join in the first place. You still don't have the balls to do anything but attack others on line. If you shut up for a moment and actually listened you might actually learn how to win rather than make a pointless fucking gesture that just plays into the proggies hands. Or maybe that's what you want.
Look, everybody, soldiermedic is once again obsessed with making everything personal and trying to provoke me to say something incriminating by calling me names.
Yes, in my opinion all vets have failed their oath at this point. We are where we are, and it is what it is. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, and I hope I am, but that's my assessment.
2020: lockdowns, organized nationwide "mostly peaceful" political terrorism, forced muzzling, blatantly illegitimate election, forced medical experimentation, political imprisonment, and now show trials.
And that's on top of Russiagate and all the other more "routine" shit.
But, in my opinion, lockdowns+blmantifa+rigged election in the span of a year = phase shift into complete betrayal of the constitution, and necessitated at least considering revolt.
Sorry you don't like to hear it. Sorry you're obsessed with who I am as a person and your extreme hatred. I hope all those insults make you feel better. I don't really give a shit, though your spazzing out is kinda annoying.
Get over yourself, man. You really think the 500 words you've written attacking me matters? Is that where you want to be when Jesus comes back?
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As to that pertaining to <21 age. One would not say that if they can do it to 18-21 year olds, they can do it to more aged adults. Rather one would say that they cannot do it to 18-21 year olds.
Similarly, it is a strange thing to seek to eliminate an historical social diferentiation between juveniles and adults.
Similarly further, if it is true, it is dishonesty to pin the burden on an adult to adult non-commercial endeavor to the obligation of a commercial seller, let alone the obligation to know a juvenile record.
Bending time to an agenda.
Well, somebody has to be thrown under the bus. Democracy works by capturing the center. Intransigence at the extremes does not sell. So you have to prove you're not principled (Remember, Americans are suspicious of ideology!), by sacrificing a token of the side you want to promote, and thereby prove it's the opposite side that's uncompromising. If you play your cards right, you retain popularity with the mostest and gain more for your side in the long run on net. So in response to people's being shot, craft legislation that makes a tiny bit of activity illegal, and then challenge the other side to move toward the center as well. If you wind up with more activity overall being legal than before, on net, your side wins. The individuals who've been thrown under the bus, you can make it up to them in other ways, possibly on other issues.
Only 25% of senate Republicans (better than 100% of the dems) voted to disarm you at the slightest opportunity, so let's keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.
It'll work some day.
Although Roberta is certainly onto something, currently those fomenting say objection is a "step backward." How is that even so? and I hope this correspondent and all are looking at the long picture of the Presidents of both parties who have generally, piece by piece (because in every society a generation only pays attention for so long, and their politicians need to do something, while the State marches on), are all disconnected from those whom they represent, or moreso bereft of consideration of History on the ground and Constitutional intent, drip drip to the non-existent center on a fundamental issue, have seen to the endeavor. It seems only an eventual argument as to who will actually be blamed for it, and by then all who intend something will agree, and those who challenge that intent will not.
they know SCOTUS is going to impose "Shall Issue" on the remaining gun control States so they are setting up this raft of barriers and confiscation schemes to create years of lawsuit billable hours for their lawyer buddies.
Beyond the point that 19 kids were added to those in our schools who's rights were stripped because Americans are queer for guns, the 2nd Amendment is based on a constitutionally defined institution which has been archaic for well over 100 years. None of you are in or have been in a militia, nor where your fathers, grandfathers, or great grandfathers.
If one good guy with a gun worked as policy, why didn't 19 good guys with guns work in Texas? Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer had nothing to do with that fiasco and it was pure red state policy on display. One nut with an AR-15 is too lethal for most humans - even the good guys - to charge in on and the result is predictable.
High velocity, semi-automatic weapons with large capacity magazines should not be legal. The rounds explode tissue and organs not even on their path through the body.
"As I opened the CT scan last week to read the next case, I was baffled. The history simply read “gunshot wound.” I have been a radiologist in one of the busiest trauma centers in the United States for 13 years, and have diagnosed thousands of handgun injuries to the brain, lung, liver, spleen, bowel, and other vital organs. I thought that I knew all that I needed to know about gunshot wounds, but the specific pattern of injury on my computer screen was one that I had seen only once before.
In a typical handgun injury, which I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ such as the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, gray bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.
I was looking at a CT scan of one of the mass-shooting victims from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, and was bleeding extensively. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?
The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semiautomatic rifle that delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. Nothing was left to repair—and utterly, devastatingly, nothing could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal....
Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim’s body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and the victim does not bleed to death before being transported to our care at the trauma center, chances are that we can save him. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different: They travel at a higher velocity and are far more lethal than routine bullets fired from a handgun. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than—and imparting more than three times the energy of—a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading...."
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/
Google "ER doc AR-15" for many more docs discussing this.
Good thing cops do not use these rifles as patrol weapons, right?
You're wasting your time posting something like this in a Reason.com comments section. Few here will google "ER doc AR-15" because they love their precious killing machines, romantically fantasize about recreating 1776, and don't give a shit about the children whose heads were blown off in Uvalde.
youre mentally Ill.
.Just ask me, I know...
If you dont want to ban cars you dont give a shit about the children who died in car accidents.
Stolid Shitizen is an ignorant moron.
I agree, Joe. Great post.
Not a surprise after your dumb comment below.
What is dumb about my comment, 5.56. It is true that muskets were what we had when the 2nd Amendment was written. My safety is a fundamental right. I've lived for 72 years and never owned or even shot a gun.
Joe Friday reposting unsubstantial, emotionally loaded bullshit to argue against fundamental right. Low as can be.
Why did cops not protect students in Uvalde? Because they’re not incentivized to do that. They preferred saving their own asses.
Armed teachers inside the building are incentivized to defend themselves. The presence of armed teachers alone would end a schools status as a soft target.
The guy from California who had the intention to assassinate Scotus Justice Brett Kavanaugh was deterred when he saw the security guards on the property.
Kavanaugh wasn’t assassinated because the potential shooter saw that he isn’t a soft target. Arming teachers would work.
Citizens should at least have AR-15 (bare minimum!) to be able to take on repressive governments and to defend the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.
Zelenskyy could have used a 2nd Amendment.
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People seem to forget that the Second Amendment was written during an era when the only guns were muskets. No one could possibly envision automatics that can kill multiple people in seconds. I have no problem with common-sense rules about auto and semi-auto firearms. These guns are weapons of war. No one goes hunting with these weapons.
The first amendment was written in a time that didn’t have the communication technology of today either. So i guess your free speech is obsolete and subject to reevaluation.
Arms change. Means change. Rights stay the same. You fucks dont get it.
Please don't call me obscene names. We can have a civil conversation even if we disagree, 5.56.
And as the purpose is made so that the people can potentially take on a repressive government, you are actually arguing in favor of enabling the public to have automatic firearms.
The US Constitutionalists wrote a replacement for "The Articles of Confederation". It couldn't get ratified by the states who saw it as a potential threat to their sovereignty and to individual sovereignty (rights), e.g., taxation, eminent domain seizures, two violations of property rights. The statists (federalists) would have failed in their attempt to centralize (concentrate) political power if not for two compromises they devised to overcome opposition. The first was adding the D.O.I. as a prologue to the Constitution and second was the B.O.R. Together, they worked, but barely, some claiming not all the required majority ratifications occurred. No matter. Neither additions worked to limit the coercion authorized by the new document, which effectively created a new centralized govt. It took about 70 years for a POTUS to force his dominance on the states, crushing state sovereignty and setting the new US Empire on a quest to crush individual sovereignty.