Bipartisan Support for Red Flag Laws Elides the Practical and Constitutional Issues They Raise
Because there is no reliable way to identify future mass shooters, it is inevitable that many innocent people will lose their Second Amendment rights.

The House of Representatives plans to vote on a bill that would authorize federal courts to issue "red flag" orders prohibiting people from possessing firearms when they are deemed a threat to themselves or others. Meanwhile, legislation encouraging states to pass and enforce their own red flag laws has emerged as a possible point of compromise between Senate Democrats who favor new gun restrictions and Senate Republicans who are skeptical of that approach.
It is not hard to understand the bipartisan appeal of this policy, which promises to target dangerous individuals rather than impose broad limits that affect millions of law-abiding Americans. But there are two basic problems with red flag laws that cannot be wished away by consensus-building rhetoric: Predicting violence is much harder than advocates of this approach are usually willing to admit, and trying to overcome that challenge by erring on the side of issuing red flag orders inevitably means that many innocent people will lose their Second Amendment rights, typically for a year and sometimes longer, even though they never would have used a gun to harm anyone. In short, minimizing false negatives means maximizing false positives.
The false negative problem is illustrated by the May 14 attack that killed 10 people at a Buffalo supermarket. The shooter was reported to the state police last June, when he was a high school senior, because he mentioned murder in a written response to a question about his post-graduation plans. But he passed that off as a sick joke, and a psychiatric evaluation concluded that he did not meet the criteria for involuntary treatment. Police still could have sought a court order barring him from buying guns, but they evidently were satisfied by his explanation, partly because he had not identified a target or described specific plans.
It may yet turn out that a more thorough investigation would have turned up additional evidence suggesting this teenager was a threat, although fellow students who had known him for years seemed to view him as odd and reclusive rather than dangerous. In retrospect, it may seem obvious that police should have invoked New York's red flag law in this case, but that does not necessarily mean their decision was reckless given the information they had at the time.
In response to the Buffalo massacre, New York Gov. Kathy Hochul urged legislators to pass a bill that would require police and prosecutors to seek a red flag order when they have "credible information that an individual is likely to engage in conduct that would result in serious harm to himself, herself or others." Under current law, police officers and prosecutors are authorized, but not required, to seek a temporary, ex parte order lasting up to six business days based on "probable cause." The standard for a final order—which requires a hearing, lasts up to a year, and can be renewed—is "clear and convincing evidence."
The bill that Hochul supports, which also adds "health care providers" to New York's long list of authorized petitioners, does not change the standards for issuing court orders. But it says a police officer or district attorney is required to file an application unless he "determines that there is no probable cause for such filing." That would not affect the evidence needed to seek a temporary order, although it apparently would require an application for a final order even when the petitioner does not think he has enough evidence to justify one. In any event, assuming that the state police decided they did not have probable cause to support an order against the teenager who would later attack the Buffalo grocery store, this new requirement would not have changed the outcome.
In other cases, such as the 2018 massacre at a high school in Parkland, Florida, it seems clear that police either knew or should have known enough to indicate that a future mass shooter posed a serious danger. That attack prompted Florida legislators to pass a red flag law aimed at encouraging preventive action in such situations.
By contrast, it is not clear that a red flag law would have stymied the 18-year-old who murdered 19 children and two adults at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, last week. The Associated Press reports that he "had no criminal record, no history of mental illness treatment and no obvious signs he was a danger."
Still, he "had frequently skipped class and was not set to graduate," and "those who knew him saw increasing signs of isolation, outbursts and aggression." A fellow student described him as "angry" and "super odd." The A.P. story also mentions "a series of cryptic social media messages—including to apparently random teenage girls in Germany and California—that offered photos of rifles, ammo and hints of his desire to hurt and kill," although the most alarming of those messages came the day of the shooting.
Other details reinforce the impression that the Uvalde shooter had long been deeply troubled. He was living with his grandmother, with whom he often argued, because of his mother's drug problem. "One childhood friend recalled a time [when the shooter] admitted to cutting his own face with knives for fun," the A.P. notes. The same friend reported that the future killer "would drive around at night egging cars and shooting random people with a BB gun."
In hindsight, all of this—except for the messages right before the attack—looks more ominous than it may have seemed at the time. Here is how the headline over the A.P. story sums up the situation: "Texas shooter sent warning signs, messages, mostly too late."
New York Times columnist Ross Douthat says he is "open to" red flag laws, although he worries that they "demand too much of bystanders and family members, while offering too little in cases where the potential shooter has cut himself off from normal contact." He describes the policy goal this way: "I want the next teenager with an obvious set of warning flags—severe familial disorder, self-harm, violent online threats—to find it much harder to turn 18 and immediately acquire a high-powered weapon."
But aside from the "violent online threats," which according to the A.P. appeared "too late," these "warning flags" were not necessarily "obvious" signs of homicidal intent. Self-harming, angry oddballs with tumultuous family backgrounds may be more inclined to violence than the average person, but almost none of them commit crimes like this.
Later in his column, Douthat seems to cast the net even wider. "The people drawn to this kind of terrorism are overwhelmingly of a type—young, troubled, socially awkward men," he observes. Needless to say, stripping all such individuals of their Second Amendment rights would be wildly over-inclusive.
"The rare nature of mass shootings creates challenges for accurately identifying salient predictors of risk," RAND Corporation researchers Rosanna Smart and Terry Schell note in a 2021 essay. "The low base rates of these events also ensure that policies targeting individuals based on risk factors would result in an extremely high rate of false positives; even the best available risk factors can identify only a subpopulation in which the risk of committing a mass shooting is on the order of one in a million."
A 2012 study that the Department of Defense commissioned after the 2009 mass shooting at Fort Hood in Texas makes the same point in an appendix titled "Prediction: Why It Won't Work." While "there may be pre-existing behavior markers that are specifiable," it says, those markers "are of low specificity and thus carry the baggage of an unavoidable false alarm rate, which limits feasibility of prediction-intervention strategies." In other words, even if certain "red flags" are common among mass shooters, almost none of the people who display those signs are bent on murderous violence.
This problem is not limited to the police officers and prosecutors who are charged with deciding whether to seek a red flag order. Psychiatrists, who are supposed to be experts in such things, are notoriously bad at predicting violence.
"Over thirty years of commentary, judicial opinion, and scientific review argue that predictions of danger lack scientific rigor," University of Georgia law professor Alexander Scherr noted in a 2003 Hastings Law Journal article. "Scientific studies indicate that some predictions do little better than chance or lay speculation, and even the best predictions leave substantial room for error about individual cases. The sharpest critique finds that mental health professionals perform no better than chance at predicting violence, and perhaps perform even worse."
Psychiatrist Richard Friedman concurred with that judgment in a 2019 New York Times essay. "The notion that we can identify mass killers before they act is, as yet, an epidemiologic fiction," Friedman wrote. "These individuals typically avoid contact with the mental health care system. Even if they didn't, experienced psychiatrists fare no better than a roll of the dice at predicting violence."
That reality means that even red flag laws with adequate due process protections are bound to affect many more harmless people than would-be killers. And while the procedures for obtaining orders vary across the 19 states that have enacted such laws, all of them are rigged against respondents. Data from Florida, for example, indicate that judges routinely rubber-stamp applications for temporary orders and are only slightly less likely to issue final orders, which they do about 95 percent of the time.
Conservative commentator David French, who perceives an urgent need for states to "pass and enforce red flag laws," says "a well-drafted red flag law should contain abundant procedural safeguards, including imposing a burden of proof on the petitioner, hearing requirements, and a default expiration date unless the order is renewed through a clear showing of continued need." French may have additional safeguards in mind. But based on the ones he mentions, nearly every existing red flag law would pass muster. Other details are important in striking a balance between false negatives and false positives.
The bill that would authorize federal red flag orders, which Rep. Lucy McBath (D–Ga.) introduced in April 2021, is pretty good in some respects. Like New York's law, it requires probable cause for a temporary order. But unlike New York's law, it requires evidence suggesting an "imminent" risk, which you might think would be a basic requirement for an order issued without a hearing based on a supposed emergency. For a final order, McBath's bill (like New York's law) requires clear and convincing evidence, a stricter standard than the "preponderance of the evidence" that suffices in five states and the District of Columbia. The bill limits the initial length of a final order to six months, compared to the year typically allowed by state laws, although the order can be extended after another hearing.
The bill also says that "if the respondent is financially unable to obtain representation by counsel, the court, at the request of the respondent, shall ensure to the extent practicable that the respondent is represented by an attorney for the Legal Services Corporation with respect to the petition." Depending on the definition of "financially unable" and "practicable," that could be a significant safeguard. Under most red flag laws, respondents have to pay for their own legal representation, which is both expensive and crucial in navigating a complicated and daunting process.
On the downside, McBath's bill, like New York's law, allows a long list of people to file petitions, which increases the risk of abuse, and it does not include a civil remedy for petitioners who lie. When it comes to approving a final order, the proposition to be proven by clear and convincing evidence is that the respondent "poses a risk of personal injury" to himself or others "during the period to be covered" by the order. As is generally true of red flag laws, the bill does not specify what level of "risk" is sufficient, which means that a respondent who is highly unlikely to harm himself or anyone else could still lose his Second Amendment rights for six months or more.
On the whole, however, McBath's bill does a better job of protecting respondents from unfounded or malicious allegations than a 2019 House bill offering grants to encourage the passage and enforcement of red flag laws. Under that bill's minimum standards, an imminent risk would not be necessary for ex parte orders, which could last up to a month; final orders could be issued based on a preponderance of the evidence indicating an unspecified degree of "danger"; and those orders could last indefinitely.
House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D–N.Y.), who introduced the 2019 bill, seemed to have crafted it so that all the jurisdictions that already had red flag laws could qualify for grants. The bill thus would have lowered the bar to the level of the jurisdictions with the weakest due process protections.
If the negotiations between Democrats and Republicans in the Senate actually produce a red flag bill, it is likely to be broadly similar to Nadler's bill, offering financial incentives to states that pass such laws. But to attract support from the 10 Republicans who would be needed to overcome a filibuster, you might think, that bill would have to include stronger due process protections.
Maybe not. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R–S.C.), who is leading the bipartisan negotiations over a red flag bill, does not seem very interested in protecting the rights of gun owners who might be mistakenly identified as dangerous.
A few years ago, Graham likened red flag orders to "judicial proceedings every day in America where somebody is adjudged to be a danger to themselves and others and they're put into a mental health facility." He either did not understand or was unwilling to acknowledge that the standards for involuntary psychiatric treatment are substantially stricter than the standards for taking away people's gun rights under red flag laws.
Graham also averred that "nobody's going to lose their gun unless they have their day in court." That is clearly not true, since temporary orders bar people from possessing guns without giving them a chance to rebut the allegations against them. The maximum length of ex parte orders ranges from two days to three weeks. Fourteen days is the most common limit. A "well-drafted red flag law" of the sort that David French favors presumably would not allow such delays in giving respondents "their day in court."
Although supporters of red flag laws tend to glide over these details, they can make a decisive difference for respondents wrongly portrayed as threats. Graham dismissed critics of red flag laws as "libertarians," saying "the Second Amendment is not a suicide pact." That is the sort of thing politicians say when they find constitutional rights inconvenient.
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Damn fine idea.
Nothing makes up for violating the second amendment like violating half the US Constitution.
First off, they're severely unconstitutional. Since that doesn't have any impact on our asshole, crooked politicians, they don't work either. If we could just find some solid polling that let them know they were unpopular, they might actually think twice about trying to pass them.
I have yet to hear a gun control idea that would have actually prevented many of these shootings.
The issue is not will it prevent (supposition) any of "these", but is it an infringement? The answer is yes.
How to tell if a "common sense" gun control proposal is a good idea; how would it work against free speech?
Raising the age to 25 to purchase would stop a few.
No reason it must be 18.
Why 25? Why not 24 or 26? Or 40 or 60? Age restriction laws are random and silly, and decidedly un-libertarian.
being tyrants in the present tense isn't enough for these assholes.
shame on South Carolina for Graham too. wtf, morons?
Might be the most punch-able face in politics!
The day after this passes, I intend to file a red flag complaint against every armed guard in the employ of any democrat. Let them have a couple of weeks living like they want us to live.
You make the mistake of believing this would affect everyone equally. Some people, you will be surprised to learn, are more equal than others.
Eventually you will have an order entered banning your from filing such lawsuits and probably become a defendant in a dozen or so libel suits filed against you if you cannot prove your 'cry wolf' allegations are true, i.e. the armed guards are a danger to themselves and society at large. I don't think you have slightest idea of how these laws operate.
All democrats are dangerous. (cite = DNC platform)
Armed guards allow them to prey more easily.
The guards are therefore dangerous to others.
(it ain't wrong to 'cry wolf' when there is a wolf)
"In Florida, a federal jury awarded Susan Khoury $520,000 in damages after finding that a Miami-Dade Schools Police officer did not have cause to have her involuntarily institutionalized for a psychological examination. "
https://reason.com/2022/05/27/brickbat-thats-nuts/
If that were the penalty for filing false red-flag reports, the proposal might get support.
However, that risk of penalty would also chill many true-positive reports. There's no way around the problem of minimizing false negatives without maximizing false positives.
That was involuntary confinement like what occurred in the 'Changeling' movie by Eastwood. Red flag laws you must have a hearing and have counsel and due process before any temporary order is made permanent; but all such orders automatically expire unless the government starts the process all over again (de novo) and files updated affidavits and holds another hearing and presents witnesses - time consuming and expensive. The due process phase will surely minimize false negatives.
You might want to get a better search engine - - - -
(from FL law)
1. This hearing allows for hearsay testimony under oath,
2. It is also important to note that the statute allows for a temporary ex parte Risk Protection Order to be issued before a hearing for a Risk Protection Order without notice to Respondent.
3. Interestingly, a Supreme Court Case decided last May raised constitutional concerns around red flag laws. The case involved the seizure of a firearm after a wife reported to law enforcement that her husband was acting erratically and making suicidal statements. After his firearms were removed, the husband sued, claiming that the officers had entered his home and seized him and his firearms without a warrant in violation of the Fourth Amendment. The Court unanimously held that the seizure was a violation of the Fourth Amendment.
4. The procedure used to remove firearms under Florida’s red flag law involves many confusing steps. Because these steps occur in a matter of 14 days, it is imperative you seek the immediate assistance of a knowledgeable defense attorney to discuss your options for contesting the firearms seizure.
Let’s go Brandon!
Good article. Goes through quite thoroughly the problems with "red flag" laws.
Did you figure out most 9mm are handguns yet?
Are you going to ruin this discussion too?
Want a citation to the other thread? Because it was sarc with a strawman and then you posting 20 strawman comments in a row.
Weird finger pointing there fat shrike.
So the answer is yes, you do intend to ruin this discussion too.
Here is the link of you and sarc shitting all over the thread. Mostly you. Why did you you include it?
https://reason.com/2022/06/01/only-the-constitution-stands-between-us-and-shanghai-style-lockdowns/?comments=true#comment-9521748
I asl because you seem to think democrats aren't anti gun despite bidens remarks on 9mm which you claimed people were being dishonest about. And yet the WH had to walk back his statement this morning. You defended his statement so was curious as if you understood why 9mm bans would include ending pistol sales for a large part, especially since it is one of the smaller calibers.
You can just say no jeff.
No need to lie about you trolling earlier. People can click the link and see.
Why did you not include it?*
Since I stopped muting you I've clicked on your so-called "gotcha" links and it's just people making jokes or saying things that are beyond your feeble comprehension.
So please keep up with the links. You only impress three or four trolls with them, while announcing to everyone else that you're not very bright.
What gotcha links? How is that not you and Jeff trolling? What gotcha did you think I made?
You started off with an ignorant strawman then got offended when I asked what your intention with it was.
How are you and Jeff so deluded?
It's spelled "stupid"
Stupidity and delusion can both exist. But the latter is more stunning in this instance.
The only thing you're pointing out is how ironic it is when you call me a dummy.
It's the only thing he's good at.
I'm good at much more than pointing out your hypocrisy. That's childs play thank you.
No hypocrisy. You see, when I say quarantines aren't concentration camps, you respond by saying I support quarantines. And you believe it. That's because you, like Tony, are really dumb.
One of mines a pistol caliber carbine.
JesseAz thinks you're stupid because he's never heard of a MAC-10.
Will these laws s be used against gangs?
Wait until some makes a complaint about a suspicious Muslim.
You can be sure that members of the most dangerous gang, the police, will be exempt from the law.
Bipartisan
There's that word again...
Yeah, it's not used when a small handful of Democrats join the Republicans in anything. But when it goes the other direction, BIPARTISAN!!!
Hey. I don't care if they're bi.
Doomed to failure and abuse. Mental health argument is weak. Best we can hope for for now is to raise the age for gun purchases and work on making assault rifles illegal (combo high velocity rounds, semi-automatic, and high capacity magazines).
Lol. Okay. I'm convinced you're just a parody now.
That's not an assault rifle you idiot. An assault rifle is capable of selective fire, that is to say, switching between semi, full, and burst fire.
Yeah, they can't even get the terms right.
Gun grabbers don't care. If it's black and scary looking it's an assault rifle. If it looks vaguely like something in an action movie or video game then it's an assault rifle. The purpose of the term is not to describe a specific weapon, it's to elicit an emotional reaction.
Joe, I occasionally read the comments at some lefty sites, and even there they do not think that it is possible to have sweeping gun control, even if Democrats were totally in charge and not subject to a Republican filibuster. They could pass a law, sure, but even if it were deemed constitutional, very few would actually obey it.
There are simply too many guns (estimated 500 million or so), the Second Amendment is too difficult to change, but more importantly, large portions of the populace have concluded themselves that the government using sweeping gun control to disarm the "bad guys" is not going to happen, so they have done what many prudent people would do in their situation: they went and became gun owners to defend themselves and their families.
I think lefties need to give up on the idea of sweeping gun control, even trying to ban so-called "assault weapons", and instead focus on managing the risks associated with guns. Instead of trying to disarm people, try to help people use guns responsibly and prudently.
The leftist mindset is so full of doublethink. They want more laws, but they don't want them to be enforced with, you know, force. They simultaneously distrust the police while wanting the police to be the only ones with guns. They understand that drug prohibition doesn't work, but they think gun prohibition will work. And most of all they think that more laws will stop people from breaking the law.
It's a convoluted mess inside the head of a leftist. I don't know how they do it.
It is Utopian thinking.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
I'm ordering two new cannon and another 5k rounds of the 9mm "Lung Blasters."
When the head of Democratic Party doesn't know a fucking thing about the weapons his handlers would like to ban, there is no room for discussion or agreement. This is one time when "Educate Yourself" is a proper response.
I just bought 100 bazooka gun rounds.
Did the spell checker turn "gum" into "gun"?
"Conservative commentator David French"
Come on Jacob, nobody believe David French is conservative in any real sense. Unless, you mean pretend conservative.
Well, Reason is full of pretend libertarians, so I’m guessing it’s an unwritten rule among pretend political pundits to keep up such appearances.
There's only one reason to ever refer to David French, and that is to taunt and insult him.
Did I mention he's an imbecile?
Most of the dispatch Republicans are. Or is French an Atlantic republican now?
We live in a nation where a FISA (secret) court can issue warrants against a sitting President based on known lies from his political opposition, then engage in a multi-year special counsel investigation of the President. The average person stands no chance of due process.
Isn't there already a law to disarm anyone who was civilly committed on the basis of being dangerous to self or others?
How exactly is taking one more step on the road to outlawing guns a compromise? Let's put up repealing the Brady Bill on one side of the proposal and then we can talk "compromise".
This. If we want to try new laws and see what works, we have to start with repealing laws that we already know don't help.
Repeal laws? That's like against the law.
Good article.
I was listening to the radio earlier and someone was talking about how here in Maine we desperately need red flag laws because we've got one of the highest rates of gun ownership and one of the lowest homicide rates in the country. Say what? They continued and said it's not because of anything that has happened, it's because of what might happen. "Maine is not immune to mass shootings, and that's why we need more laws."
What the actual fuck?
No one ever accused the gun grabbers of using reason and logic. Fear is the tool of choice.
Also, we already have one in Maine, but they call it a "yellow flag law" because it requires an assessment and sign-off by a medical professional.
Ok. Pass your Constitutionally questionable Red Flag Law. Also, to make it fair for the person reported, MANDATE that they receive a hearing within 48 hours to refute the claim! If the courts can't hear your defense within 48 hours, the red flag ruling is overturned and the cops must return any confiscated firearms.
This would help especially women prevent having their firearms confiscated by an abusive significant other and being left defenseless!
Still deprives people of their rights for 2 days. No thanks.
Has law enforcement ever returned a firearm that the seized illegally?
"they"
My understanding is a well defined red law would let you keep the gun until the hearing to force the State to hold the hearing, present witnesses and evidence to support a restraining order. And all orders automatically expire forcing the State to redo the entire process as if the original order was never issued (de novo). I don't fear red flag laws; I fear the GOP letting the left write them and making them 'rubber stamps' for gun control and confiscation with no practical way to ever get your guns back. (Like asset forfeiture laws).
Your understanding is wrong.
"Because there is no reliable way to identify future mass shooters, it is inevitable that many innocent people will lose their Second Amendment rights."
Get woke! Nobody who owns a gun, or wants to own a gun, is innocent. In fact, they have committed crimes against humanity by contributing to global gunness and deserve to be punished.
Might as well go all in then and put them to use
Let's ask ourselves - do we have a problem? I think we can agree the answer is yes. Next, what can we learn from other advanced nations? They have assault weapon bans and we do not. Okay, what are assault weapons good for? Pretty much killing people, and not much else. I think since Bush2 let the assault weapons ban expire in 2004 - things are significantly worse.
One note, I do not underestimate the role of social media in this, but we don't see the same results as in other advanced nations.
You may want to read actual shooting statistics. Countries with more strict gun laws have more mass shootings.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewCFollett/status/1529577076419923968
So your talk of other advances nations isn't the talking point you think it is.
===
Andrew Follett
@AndrewCFollett
A thread on how the media is telling you two major lies about mass shootings and gun control
1: Other countries with vastly stricter gun laws than the US have higher rates of mass shootings.
2: US jurisdictions w/ gun laws have exponentially higher rates of gun violence
Andrew Follett
@AndrewCFollett
·
May 25
Out of 97 countries with data, the US is 64th in frequency of mass shootings and 65th in murder rate.
And rates of mass shootings elsewhere are rising faster
Andrew Follett
@AndrewCFollett
·
May 25
4 times as many per capita died in mass shootings in FRANCE as in the US. 21 times in Norway.
In addition to those fairly nice nations, Finland, Germany, Israel, Italy, Spain, and Switzerland have higher mass shooting death rates.
You really had to dig in the crevices of social media to find that little pack of lies. Scroll down to see why that random Twitter dude is abusing his stats.
And we don't just want to stop mass shootings anyway. We want to reduce gun deaths. I'm sorry the solution is so painfully simple that a retarded child would literally guess it first, but we are talking about NRA types here.
The citations are in the tweets. Are you denying the statistics?
I'm denying that you or the random guy on the internet understand them.
When you get your first premise wrong, it's not surprising that the rest of your argument goes awry. No, we do not have a problem. When adjusted for population size, education, immigration and other demographics, US violence levels are not notably different from other countries.
There is one notable exception - the historical record of mass killings by one's own government is dramatically lower in the US than in other "advanced" nations.
But the US does have by far the highest incarceration numbers. Are we making a big mistake by not letting prisoners by semiautomatic rifles?
And we'll have an even bigger prison population if we try to ban semi-automatic rifles or handguns.
And even larger prison populations if we don't get the progressives out of our schools. At some point we have to ask the question. " What motivates a person to commit this kind of crime?" Is it movies? Hollywood takes no responsibility. Are the games people play the problem? Maybe. Could telling young black people that they will never amount to anything because their own country hates them, have something to do with it? Could guilt tripping young white children about slavery warp their young impressionable minds? These last two examples are actually forms of mental abuse, and yes that will affect the mental and emotional development of a child for years to come. Lastly could the lack of consequence empower people to commit violent crimes. The biblical answer would be, spare the rod spoil the child. I have never once heard of a gun committing a crime on it's own, but people sure as hell do.
I assume you are leaving out the late unpleasantness?
You know what else we can learn from other advanced nations? That they're ethnically homogeneous and that statistical studies in the US show a more significant correlation between race and shootings than gun laws and shootings.
Trust me, don't go down this rabbit hole of "what is different about other nations." We do have a problem, but you're not going to like the answer.
Oh, that black people are genetically more violent? Like animals almost?
What an exciting new thesis!
Sounds plausible, except that there's just one little problem with your 2004 assault weapons ban theory: the timeline doesnt make sense based on the actual statistics. The incredible decline in America's violent crime rate was from 1991 until 2014, and 2014 is ten years after 2004 for the mathematically challenged among us. A homicide rate decline of about 60% in that period of time doesn't happen by accident; America was obviously doing something right during this period. The far left has desperately reached for some ludicrous explanations like lead paint, but we all know that this is complete and total horseshit.
So the question is, what really happened around 2014 (not 2004) that caused us to start backsliding? The answer is that that's alnost precisely when the pro-criminal far left started reasserting its power in America once again, led by their most revered modern day godhesd. Block Insane Yomomma.
To the left, anyone wanting to own a firearm is an automatic red flag. Any red flag laws will be abused dreadfully, both by law enforcement and by those that want to take revenge on someone, such as ex-employees, ex-spouses, etc. And, it will not do anything to stop a deranged criminal from doing all the damage he wants to do.
STUPID --- Doing the same thing OVER AND F'En OVER AGAIN expecting a different result....
It's not as if 'new' gun regulation was a 'new' idea......... F'En Nazi's have been working on confiscating guns for over a century now...
Listen up Stupid's.... If it worked LAST TIME it would be WORKING... IT DOESN'T F'EN WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just for the record, gun control in Germany was not a Nazi invention.
The Treaty of Versailles, Article 177 banned all civilian use of firearms, any civilian instruction on their use, and any civilian shooting exercises activity, especially banning all organizations or associations from taking part in any such use and/or activity or allowing it to happen.
So the WWI Allies.
What Hitler actually did was exempt the NSDAP from gun control laws passed in 1928 & 1938, so his SA & SS buddies had guns, but very few others.
Oooh!
That's one'a dem dere *expensive* words. The sorta word ya gotta pay a lawyer type to get.
Go fuck yourselves, baby killers.
If the government started buying back guns, you'd see plenty of even real fruitnuts turning them in. People like money.
Sure, there'd be a few holdout fetishist cousin-fuckers, but there's your red flags right there.
Ever see the guns turned in during these "Buy Backs" POS's that even Hunter Biden wouldn't use.
A useful reminder that some fraction of Republican office holders are also gun controllers, they just feel the need to hide it to keep Republican voters from replacing them.
But when some tragedy happens, they think they've got a short window in which they can let their gun grabber instincts off the leash.
The only reason Graham is still in office is that South Carolina has open primaries, and since the winner of the Republican primary IS going to win the general election, Democrats vote in it to save Graham.
It seems odd to focus on banning AR-15's. Sure they have been used in some awful incidents. So have trucks and pistols. Who is really threatened by an AR-15? The high velocity, small bullet is especially effective against those wearing body armor. Who wears body armor? Our gov-guns agents enforcing the law. I have put a similar caliber rifle on my wish list for exactly this reason. Everything I currently is of very limited effectiveness against people wearing armor. No wonder they want to get those 20million guns out of circulation.
How many people have died because they lost their right to possess a gun under these red flag laws? As a retired cop I can tell you the standards in place to commit someone for mental illness, is very strict. We have to wait until they PROVE they are a danger to themselves and others. Clarity generally comes after they do great damage. Taking away a gun temporarily far less of a constraint on someone's civil rights than commitment. The guns at issue are in the hands of the mentally ill. These incidents have increased since 1975 when the Supreme Court restricted our ability to limit civil rights to force treatment. We must PROVE they are a danger to themselves or others. Red flags are not proof. In 1987, NYC was prevented from committing mentally ill homeless because although she was mentally ill, her behavior was not obviously and immediately dangerous to anyone. The standard has been interpreted as a very high bar. O’Connor v. Donaldson 422 U.S. 563 (1975) Canada (and probably other countries) allows for committal based on a likelihood of substantial mental or physical deterioration as an alternative to the dangerousness/harm criteria. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6735142. We could fix this in the US.
You're an evil piece of shit and corrupt to your core.
A good cop would take you out back and put two in your dome.
After lying about and demonizing Trump (the most libertarian president since Cal Coolidge) for the past six years, Jacob Sullum now complains about the disastrous policies that his left wing Democrat allies have been imposing (for the past five decades).
And of course, Sullum blames several RINOs for endorsing disastrous policies that virtually ALL Democrats have been demanding for years/decades.
No “Due Process”? Does that matter or does that concern these Oh So Concerned types? Why would any caring citizen dispute the superior knowledge, just ask them, of these Know It Alls.
Oh yes, you have been charged and convicted by the future crimes unit, your execution has been scheduled for tomorrow at six AM....appeals will be heard during normal court hours the day after tomorrow!
Don't worry, "The Narrative" is already being broadcast, with a steady trickle of "mass shootings" every day. There is, of course, nothing unusual about these "mass shootings" (we usually have 200-400 per year, almost all of them committed with handguns). But since Democrats are obsessed with finding some issue that carries them through the midterms and distracts from their failures, the press dutifully manipulates the public with fear and uncertainty.
I heard Hunter Biden's strung out on crack and has a Gun!!!! Alert the SWAT team!!!!!
I always thought POTUS's immediate families got SS protection...