The Failed Senate Abortion Bill Went Far Beyond Preserving Current Rights
Without citing any constitutional authority to dictate state abortion policies, the bill would have overridden regulations that have been upheld or have yet to be tested.

The Senate yesterday rejected a bill that would have blocked state restrictions on abortion, including bans that are likely to be passed or will take effect after the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, as it is expected to do soon. Democrats touted the bill, which was supported by 49 senators, as a way to preserve the rights protected by Roe. But it goes much further than that, overriding existing regulations that have been upheld by the courts under current precedents or have yet to be tested. And it does that without citing any constitutional authority, a dangerous precedent that invites a future Congress controlled by Republicans to ban abortion nationwide without even paying lip service to limits on the federal government's powers.
The Women's Health Protection Act of 2022 says states may not ban abortion prior to "viability" (i.e., the point at which a fetus can survive outside the womb), which nowadays is generally said to occur around 23 or 24 weeks into a pregnancy. The bill also prohibits bans on post-viability abortions "when, in the good-faith medical judgment of the treating health care provider, continuation of the pregnancy would pose a risk to the pregnant patient's life or health."
That much is consistent with Roe and Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the 1992 decision in which the Supreme Court reaffirmed Roe's "central holding." Casey prohibits laws that impose an "undue burden" on the right to abortion, including regulations that place "a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion of a nonviable fetus." And while states may restrict post-viability abortions, Casey says, those regulations must include "exceptions for pregnancies which endanger the woman's life or health."
If the bill had stopped there, it probably would have attracted majority support in the Senate, although still not enough votes to overcome a filibuster. Two Republican senators who support abortion rights, Susan Collins (Maine) and Lisa Murkowski (Alaska), voted against the bill. They had pitched a narrower bill that would have copied Casey's language, barring regulations that impose an "undue burden" on abortion access.
"I was hopeful that the Democratic Party, having control of the agenda, would put a piece of legislation forward that would codify Roe v. Wade," said Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia, the one Democrat who voted against the Women's Health Protection Act. "For me, that would be the reasonable, rational thing to do." Manchin complained that the bill would instead "expand abortion."
It is not hard to see why he said that. Among other things, the bill aims to block state restrictions on abortion pills. It says a state may not limit "a health care provider's ability to prescribe or dispense drugs based on current evidence-based regimens or the provider's good-faith medical judgment" unless the regulation is "generally applicable to the medical profession." The bill also prohibits states from limiting "a health care provider's ability to provide abortion services via telemedicine" unless the restriction is "generally applicable to the provision of medical services via telemedicine."
Those provisions would not only preclude outright bans on drug-induced abortions. They would also stop states from requiring in-person medical visits to obtain abortion pills, as the Food and Drug Administration used to do and 19 states currently do.
The Women's Health Protection Act would have prohibited "a requirement that, prior to obtaining an abortion, a patient make one or more medically unnecessary in-person visits to the provider of abortion services." Casey itself upheld a Pennsylvania requirement that seems to violate that restriction. The regulation required that doctors provide information about "the nature of the abortion procedure, the attendant health risks and those of childbirth, and the 'probable gestational age' of the fetus" at least 24 hours before an abortion.
The Senate bill also targets laws that require health care providers to "perform specified tests, services, or procedures prior to or subsequent to the abortion." That restriction likewise rules out regulations that have survived court challenges.
In 2019, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit upheld a Kentucky law that required abortion providers to "auscultate (or make audible) the fetal heartbeat, perform an ultrasound, and display and describe the ultrasound images to the patient." In a 2018 decision, the 6th Circuit noted, the Supreme Court had "clarified that no heightened First Amendment scrutiny should apply to informed-consent statutes like the abortion-informed-consent statute at issue" in Casey. Because the Kentucky law, "like the statute in Casey, requires the disclosure of truthful, nonmisleading, and relevant information about an abortion," the appeals court said, "we hold that it does not violate a doctor's right to free speech under the First Amendment."
That case involved a First Amendment challenge. But the 6th Circuit took it for granted that "informed consent" statutes are constitutional under Casey as long as the information is accurate, even when they require "specified tests, services, or procedures."
Another provision of the Women's Health Protection Act prohibits states from regulating "the physical plant, equipment, staffing, or hospital transfer arrangements of facilities where abortion services are provided, or the credentials or hospital privileges or status of personnel at such facilities," when those requirements are "not imposed on facilities or the personnel of facilities where medically comparable procedures are performed." That seems generally consistent with the Supreme Court's rulings in the 2016 case Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerstedt and the 2020 case June Medical Services v. Russo. But the bill's broad language goes beyond the policies at issue in those cases, which involved local admitting privileges for doctors who perform abortions and a requirement that abortion clinics comply with the same standards as "ambulatory surgical centers."
In addition to the policies it explicitly prohibits, the bill forbids any abortion-specific "limitation or requirement" that "impedes access to abortion services," which is a capacious catch-all category. In deciding whether a regulation violates this provision, the bill says, a court "may consider" several factors, including whether the regulation is "reasonably likely" to "delay or deter some patients in accessing abortion services," "directly or indirectly increase the cost of providing abortion services or the cost for obtaining abortion services," or "have the effect of necessitating a trip to the offices of a health care provider that would not otherwise be required."
The bill's critics, in short, are right that it goes far beyond preserving the rights protected by Roe and Casey. Democrats prefer to glide over that point.
"Is this a bill to preserve access, as it is today with Roe in place," CNN's Victor Blackwell recently asked Sen. Mazie Hirono (D–Hawaii), "or is the goal of the bill to expand it?" Hirono's response was notably evasive:
The bottom line is that this is a bill that is going to enable the woman to make the decision. So we can have all kinds of arguments, getting into the weeds, about this, that, or the other thing, but the fact of the matter is that the radical, right-wing justices put on the Court by the Republicans, particularly the last three justices, have decided that they are just going to overturn almost 50 years of a constitutional right. That is the bottom line.
Blackwell, who noted the objections from Collins and Murkowski, rejected Hirono's characterization of his question. "It's not getting into the weeds on this thing or the other," he noted. "It's what the legislation is. It's what is guaranteed by it."
Politicians like Hirono do not want voters to focus on "what the legislation is." They want voters to focus on how Republicans are changing the status quo, without acknowledging that Democrats want to change it in a different direction.
The Women's Health Protection Act is notably silent on the question of where Congress gets the authority to dictate state abortion policies. A different version of the bill, which the House passed last year, frames it as an exercise of the power to regulate interstate commerce:
Abortion restrictions substantially affect interstate commerce in numerous ways. For example, to provide abortion services, health care providers engage in interstate commerce to purchase medicine, medical equipment, and other necessary goods and services. To provide and assist others in providing abortion services, health care providers engage in interstate commerce to obtain and provide training. To provide abortion services, health care providers employ and obtain commercial services from doctors, nurses, and other personnel who engage in interstate commerce and travel across State lines.
Assuming that the Supreme Court overturns Roe and Casey in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health, the abortion case it is now considering, that would mean Congress has no power to regulate abortion (or abortion laws) under the 14th Amendment. "Maybe they could try under the commerce power," South Texas College of Law Houston professor Josh Blackman said in a recent interview with Reason's Nick Gillespie, "but it would be a stretch….I think that sort of legislation is dead on arrival after the Dobbs case."
When Gillespie pressed Blackman on that point, noting that Congress has used the Commerce Clause for many purposes only tenuously related to interstate commerce, Blackman replied: "I don't think that legislation would work when we're talking about interstate commerce….I suppose the Congress could say every abortion is a type of economic activity because it involves the surgical tools and things of that nature. But this would pretty clearly be seen as a way of getting around the Dobbs case. I think it would probably not work."
I am not so sure that courts would reject a Commerce Clause justification for something like the Women's Health Protection Act. That sort of reasoning, although it seems far afield from the original understanding of the Commerce Clause, has been blessed by the Supreme Court. Furthermore, it can easily be turned against abortion rights.
The federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, a 2003 law that the Court upheld in 2007, applies to late-term abortions using the "dilation and extraction" method that are performed "in or affecting interstate commerce." As Independence Institute scholar David Kopel and University of Tennessee law professor Glenn Reynolds noted in a 1997 Connecticut Law Review article, this language is baffling "to any person not familiar with the Commerce Clause sophistries of twentieth century jurisprudence….Unless a physician is operating a mobile abortion clinic on the Metroliner, it is not really possible to perform an abortion 'in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce.'"
Those "Commerce Clause sophistries" are so routine nowadays that they did not even figure in the challenge to the federal ban. The Court concluded that the law, because of its narrow scope, did not impose an "undue burden" on abortion. The justices did not pause to consider how the power to regulate interstate commerce has been transformed into a license for pretty much anything Congress wants to do.
That is hardly surprising, since the Court had ruled two years before that the Commerce Clause is so elastic that it allows Congress to criminalize the state-blessed production and possession of medical marijuana, even when it is never sold and never leaves the grower's property, let alone crosses state lines. "If Congress can regulate this under the Commerce Clause," Justice Clarence Thomas observed in his dissent, "then it can regulate virtually anything—and the Federal Government is no longer one of limited and enumerated powers."
It seems to follow that if Congress can prohibit barriers to abortion under the Commerce Clause, it can also erect barriers. Once Roe and Casey are overturned, those barriers need not be limited to restrictions like the one imposed by the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, which the Court deemed modest enough to pass muster under Casey. If you accept the constitutional reasoning on which the House version of the Women's Health Protection Act relies, Congress could even impose a comprehensive ban on abortion.
The Senate version of the bill dispenses with even the pretense that Congress has to explain how its legislation fits within one of its enumerated powers. So does President Joe Biden's statement endorsing the bill. The implication is that a Republican Congress, with the assistance of a Republican president, could simply ban abortion nationwide without bothering to cite any constitutional authority.
Both parties are accustomed to flouting the Constitution when it stands in the way of their agendas. They never seem to realize that the license they exercise today can be used by their opponents tomorrow.
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"... without citing any constitutional authority ... [emphasis added]"
Please don't fall for that trap! Our political class are experts at claiming authority that doesn't actually exist. The problem with the failed Senate bill is not that it failed to cite any constitutional authority, but rather than it failed to have any constitutional authority.
9th Amendment: Text. The amendment, as proposed by Congress in 1789 and later ratified as the Ninth Amendment, reads as follows: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Notice "the people"... NOTHING about the fartilized egg smells, blastocysts, or ectopic can't-ever-be-a-baby, can-only-be-a-woman-killer! So WHERE does the Constitution authorize statist womb-control?
She is a child, not a choice. Your president stated as such:
The idea that we're going to make a judgment that is going to say that no one can make the judgment to choose to abort a child, based on a decision by the Supreme Court, I think goes way overboard
Thus spaketh Joe Biden.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-reacts-leaked-draft-supreme-court-opinion-abortion/story?id=84467397
Yes, but those children belong to the teachers. Thus spaketh Hoe Biden.
If you truly are a gay man then according to the aclu your the hardest hit by overturning of roe v wade
My husband and I will valiantly keep trying to have children in spite of these political developments. But for the life of me, no matter how many times I inseminate my husband, he never gets pregnant. I have scolded him many times for not cooperating. Thoughts?
/sarc
Im sick and tired of both political parties dragging (pun intended) us homos into their arguments considering we are never consulted. The discussions on overturning Roe v Wade have no impact on 2 fags humping each other.
It all goes back to definition of "individual". Does it include fetus? Can we terminate a person on life-support because they cannot survive independently? Is someone obligated to provide that support? If so, who?
https://www.newyorker.com/science/annals-of-medicine/what-the-life-of-the-mother-might-mean-in-a-post-roe-america
What the “Life of the Mother” Might Mean in a Post-Roe America
“We are going to see more deaths and more injuries,” Ghazaleh Moayedi, an ob-gyn in Dallas, said. “I don’t have to speculate about that at all.”
A worthy read! SOME late-term pregnancies are GUARANTEED to NOT yield a baby that you can take home! Women WILL die, for lack of late-term abortions! (What is better, a few minutes or hours for a doomed infant (outside of the womb), plus a dead mom, or a living mom, who can live for many more years? Maybe even give birth to HEALTHY babies, later on?)
And do you want POLITICIANS to decide, instead of moms and their doctors?
You all heard it here: SQRLSY is telling us principles don't matter.
You all heard it here: Overt the pervert values a very-soon-dead baby (and its dead mom) FAR more than a living mom, and her ability to successfully reproduce in the future!
Overt the pervert MUST satisfy his PUNISHMENT-PUNISHMENT-PUNISHMENT-PRINCIPLES-PRINCIPLES-PRINCIPLES self-righteousness boner above ALL else!
I said no such thing, captain. I said nothing about punishment. I didn't even advance a case. I merely summarized your argument.
You are the one pushing the notion that letting mothers murder millions of babies is pragmatically preferable to some small number of moms who nevertheless choose to murder babies and get injured in the process.
Or is that not the argument you just advanced?
A fartilized egg smell is NOT a "baby", fanatic!
Is an embryo human? What about a fetus?
Sure, they are human! So are my sperm cells, and any cancer cells cut out of my body, and the cheek linings that I flush away when I brush my teeth! AND every time that I eat solids! So what, power pig after the POWER to PUNISH the lesser mortals?
And here we see SQRLSY prove his ignorance of what a human is, what DNA is, what cancer is, and what food is.
Most impressive.
Sperm cells don't have a complete human genome and if you leave them be they don't end up shitposting here like an embryo eventually will if you don't kill it first.
You're a dirty liar and a psychotic monster, Sqrls.
DesigNate... You know that they now have the ability to generate pluripotent stem cells out of my fat or skin cells, right? They could clone me off of those, or they could generate egg precursors and sperm precursors out of my body ("somatic") cells, and combine them, and make humans out of the LIVING cheek cells I flush down the sink every day! And swallow and digest them every day! So my living cheek cells are "could-be-humans" every bit as much as fartilized egg smells! Shall we outlaw teeth-brushing and the eating of solid foods? HOW MUCH POWER do you want, power pig?
Very soon, "in vitro fertilization" will likely be outlawed in many states (made MUCH more expensive or out of reach for people in power-mad "red" states), because of "wasted" fertilized eggs! People who VERY much want to have babies, will NOT have babies, 'cause of power pigs like YOU! YOU are lusting after killing these would-be, very real babies! 'Cause you're a Buttinsky AND a Nosenheimer! ... Again, plain and simple: HOW MUCH POWER do you want, power pig?
Did you never hear, "the enemy of the good is the perfect"?
So Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer, WHY won't you and your fellow fanatics answer my questions? What is it SPECIFICALLY about HUMAN fartilized egg smells that makes THEM so Specially Sacred (if that's what You think), and what specific PUNISHMENTS are You looking for, punishment-pig?
What do YOU think that the punishment should be for deliberately killing a fertilized human egg cell? Ditto the punishments for likewise killing a fertilized egg of an ape... A monkey... A rat... An insect... If your Righteous Punishments from on High are DIFFERENT in these cases, then WHY? WHERE do the differences come from? And what gives YOU (or the 51% of the voters) the right to punish the rest of us?
Never, ever, have I gotten an answer, when I pose these questions, about what the PUNISHMENTS should be!
So when advanced space aliens come here, you're ready to blast them to smithereens, obliterate them at will... 'Cause they have no human DNA? Are not now, will never be, human? Or at the very least, you're not willing to punish any alien-murderers?
Murdering a space alien should be placed in the law books as a crime, pro-actively. And also to make a point to the troglodytes, about this "sacred human DNA" crap! WHERE does the sacredness come from, for cryin' out loud to Government Almighty?
"A fartilized egg smell is NOT a "baby", fanatic!"
Yes, let the hate seeeeeth within you, young padawan.
Let's be clear here. SQRLSY can't even bring himself to admit that a fertilized egg is a being worth reckoning with. No, he denigrates it as a "fartilized egg smell". This is a rhetorical trick that anyone familiar with history will recognize. SQRLSY doesn't want to have a deep conversation about whether an embryo or fetus (or jew) is a human baby. It is self evident that they are SUB HUMAN, and not deserving of protection.
As plenty of the Pro-Abortion people have said to people like you in the past, "Please stop. You aren't helping."
He's an evil, ghoulish old fucker.
And a born baby is not an adult. Idiot.
Wow, Captain Obvious! You must have gone to a REALLY good school!
One adult or set of adults can adopt a born baby if the birth mother doesn't feel up to raising it. This is NOT possible with a newly womb-wall-implanted fartilized egg smell!!! And if it is implanted in the Fallopian tube? In an "ectopic pregnancy"? Abandon ALL hope, except for self-righteous woman-killing fanatics!
Did you also know THAT, Captain Obvious?
Sarc doesn't like when you summarize his arguments to its base parts and expose the simplicity of the thoughts.
It would help if the pro-abortion side actually took the time to understand the anti-abortion side. Alas, we have morons like you and TJJ to spout off retarded shit instead.
I for one HAVE taken the time to gaze deep into the worshippers of fartilized egg smells, and I see very little other than fanatical power-lust! Dead abortion doctors killed by fanatics, and, coming to red states soon, COULD-have-been-raised-in-loving-homes-babies, KILLED by the outlawing of in-vitro fertilization!
What next, it would be good for the anti-NAMBLA people to take the time to better understand the good motives of the kiddie-diddlers?
Yes individual includes a fetus. It can not be divided into equal parts to form 2 similar objects. It has its own unique DNA.
It is the only dividing line that makes consistent sense.
Better set that individual FREE... Don't want any enslavement going on...
God, the amount of intellectual dishonesty of your comments makes me suspicious you can't make a logical argument in favor of your position to you rely on appeals to emotion because you have nothing else. Oh, and don't forget demagoguery of those who don't 100% support your position. If you can't convince them you try to shame them. Great strategy, wonder who else has used those tactics?
It is just idiocy. But let him keep going. I think he isnmaking pro abortion people so embarrassed they are going to the other side.
His arguments are so retarded I kinda almost wonder if he's actually a pro-life activist astroturfing.
It all goes back to definition of "individual"
- synonym for separate; well covered.
Does it include fetus?
Set if FREE and find out. (Takes care of all the mythical creatures argument on the matter).
Can [we] terminate a person on life-support because they cannot survive independently?
NO [WE] shouldn't have that authority DIRECT FAMILY who KNOWS and has invested interest in the person on life support should make that call.
Is someone obligated to provide that support?
No.
Communities can support *charity* to provide the support though.
The fetus is not a mythical creature. Saying shit like that hurts your cause rather than helps it. Fuck, you have no ability to make a reasonable argument do you?
"Does it include fetus?
Set if FREE and find out. (Takes care of all the mythical creatures argument on the matter)."
Yeah, what happens if you set free a 3 day old infant. It will die. Does that mean it isn't a human being? Does that change if it was a baby born 2 weeks premature? 4 weeks?
Set a fat blue-haired urbanite to live independently in the wilderness and she will die. Set an old man with dementia free to live independently and he will die. Set a 6-year-old free to live independently and they will die. Everyone relies on others.
TJJ2000 can't stop making utterly fatuous arguments.
6 year old might live. If you ever get bored, look up historical feral humans. To me, a mindblowingly interesting topic.
Blocking Congress (government) from construing to deny or disparage certain Individual Rights retained by the people DOESN'T grant them any authority to create them by legislation.
I'm afraid your claim-shot is a manipulated miss..
The question is who's individual rights do we protect. If you didn't dismiss the other sides argument and actual engaged in an honest discussion you would win concerts, but your intellectual dishonest misrepresentations and insisting everyone accept your beliefs as fact, rather than debate them, just pushes people away from your position.
Set if FREE and the FACTS will present themselves.
As well as dismantle the battle of 'rights' of leaving it in her.
This is the problem with Pro-Life; they want to argue the fetus is an individual, a baby, a person and whatever pronoun they can give it.
But when push comes to shove that Individual, Baby, Person CANNOT be........... Thus; It's all just Pronoun Propaganda in an effort to STEAL Individual Rights to one's own body ( someone's pregnant wife )...
It's the pronoun mythical creature of the month contest.
correction: CANNOT be (pre 'viable')...
Define viable. Is a 40 week normally delivered infant viable, or does it require others to care for it? How about a 3 year old child, can it care for itself or does it depend upon others to survive? Since both require others to survive, then are they also not people? Not have a right to life? You didn't think this out did you?
Viable - capable of normal growth and development (of a fetus) having reached a stage of development at which further development can occur independently of the mother..
In simple terms when "mother" is no longer part of the equation.
So, with or without medical intervention? Because viable by the current standard would start at 19 weeks with current medical knowledge. And when isn't the mother part of the equation? Can the infant survive even once born at normal gestation survive without the mother or other adult intervention? Can it feed itself, clean itself, move purposely. Even a preterm infant develops separate from its mother. Viable isn't a definitive definition, but is dependent upon a whole bunch of other factors.
So a 1 day year old baby can take care of itself? Interesting.
1 day old *
Astonishing isn't it.
Can it survive on its own at 40 weeks if delivered naturally? Can a 3 yo survive on its own? Can you survive on your own? That is not a valid point. You think it's a valid point but if taken to it's logical conclusion you could choose to end the life of any child, as they can't survive on their own. Hell, most people depend upon others for survival. It's a juvenile point, pure sophistry.
We're all but dependent fertilized egg!!! Nobody is a person!!!! /s
And you think my arguments suck... lol..
That isn't a response but rather an a juvenile retort because you can't actually counter my point or answer the questions I proposed. Since it's such an obvious dodge, it demonstrates far better than anything I can state about the invalidity of your arguments.
Yes, they do suck.
I take back my apology from the other day. You are, in fact, a fucking moron.
True, but as the piece confesses, ANY bill purporting to codify Roe would have been filibustered. Meanwhile, all the excesses are to be found on the "forced birth" side, so it's rather idle to complain of theoretical EXPANSIONS of reproductive choice.
All the excesses! ALL OF THEM!
Allowing Fetal Ejection would be a good compromise...
God, you are terrible at this, the more you post the more you harm your position.
TJJ is a mythical creature because if we dropped him off on Baffin Island in October he couldn’t survive by himself.
They're not "theoretical" expansions once they're in the text of a bill on the floor of the US Senate.
Forced births, excesses. I'm pro choice but this language is complete bullshit and makes me far more open to the pro-life ban it all crowd, which aren't even the majority of pro-lifers.
lol... You're so Pro-Life pretending like your not...
Forced Reproduction is what it really is; but I'm sure everyone see's that.
I am not pro-life unless you feel pro-life includes anyone who doesn't support abortion up to the time of delivery.
God, you don’t even understand the difference between reproduction and gestation.
I want to point out, the 'right to life' is not dependant upon your environment; it can't be, that's stupidly offensive. How is my 'right to exist' now, any different than, when I could not articulate my defense to exist?
Johnny Cochran doesn't work for free.
Subsidize the environment to sustain a right to life?
Sounds like Communism to me.
Inalienable Rights don't require subsidies... That take would correctly be called ENTITLEMENT.
Is life an inalienable right? Is taking a life an inalienable right? You have to answer both of those if you are arguing inalienable rights and show why your position is defensible by your answers. Rather than snark try actual logic and intellectual honesty. Don't ridicule. Try acting like an informed adult rather than the puerility that you usually post.
It's funny your so excited to think for me...
How about YOU pitch a thought of your own instead of thinking for me.
I have multiple times over the past week. And I'm not thinking for you, I'm offering advice and criticism. As you can't tell the difference that speaks more about you than it does me.
Two things.
First, a lot of references to "women" by these folks, who cannot seem to even be able to define the term even as a Supreme Court nominee who would presumably be expected to interpret the law.
Second, does the irony not burn?
It says a state may not limit "a health care provider's ability to prescribe or dispense drugs based on current evidence-based regimens or the provider's good-faith medical judgment"
Remember when doctors were prescribing ivermectin and other drugs in "the provider's good faith medical judgement"?
Or pain killers.
That was different -- lives were at stake.
Nicely done.
Both parties are accustomed to flouting the Constitution when it stands in the way of their agendas
They flout medical science as well, but especially the Leftist anarchists. For example, Life begins at conception as seen in genetics, molecular biology, biochemistry, physiology and embryology.
Gametes (egg, sperm) / Germ cells are haploid, 23 chromosomes. They lack a full complement of chromosomes to sustain life. They have no cytosolic organelles to synthesize ATP. ATP sustains life, as it is the basic unit of energy currency necessary to keep an organism alive. No ATP = no life. They can not conduct aerobic nor anaerobic respiration. Life requires respiration. They can not undergo cell division.
When germ cells fuse (sperm and egg) they create a cell with diploid chromosomal number, 46 chromosome, have cytosolic organelles, can synthesize ATP, undergo aerobic and anaerobic respiration, and undergo cell division, because live cells are defined by these very scientific biological processes.
Proaborts live in the middle ages when it comes to the sciences.
What does your "science" say about the below? Answers (which I NEVER get from you fanatics!) PLEASE!!!
Please NOTE that ***ALL*** of the anti-abortion fanatics want to PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH those who DARE to disobey them! The fact that they won't specify WHAT offenses should be punished with WHAT exact punishment? Even when asked? What difference does it make? (I have asked the fanatics, and they won't answer.)
What do YOU think that the punishment should be for deliberately killing a fertilized human egg cell? Ditto the punishments for likewise killing a fertilized egg of an ape... A monkey... A rat... An insect... If your Righteous Punishments from on High are DIFFERENT in these cases, then WHY? WHERE do the differences come from? And what gives YOU (or the 51% of the voters) the right to punish the rest of us?
Never, ever, have I gotten an answer, when I pose these questions, about what the PUNISHMENTS should be!
So when advanced space aliens come here, you're ready to blast them to smithereens, obliterate them at will... 'Cause they have no human DNA? Are not now, will never be, human? Or at the very least, you're not willing to punish any alien-murderers?
Murdering a space alien should be placed in the law books as a crime, pro-actively. And also to make a point to the troglodytes, about this "sacred human DNA" crap! WHERE does the sacredness come from, for cryin' out loud to Government Almighty?
"Never, ever, have I gotten an answer, when I pose these questions, about what the PUNISHMENTS should be!"
I'll answer your question about punishment just as soon as we can agree upon when someone is due their human rights.
I am on record saying multiple times that there are two moral questions here: the question of when one is murdering a human, and the second is how invasive of a government we ought to create in order to prevent murder.
But I won't have the second discussion until persons like yourself calm down and answer the first question.
"I'll answer your question about punishment just as soon as we can agree upon when someone is due their human rights."
And this is especially fun when SQRLSY is the one who previously insisted that he had a right to hospitals where people are forced to vaccinate and wear masks. You know...to protect him from the aggression of bugs.
Someone is due their human rights when they can defend them!
"We" (whoever the "we" are in any given case) have the "rights" that we have earned and defended for ourselves. If fertilized egg cells (of ANY species!) want some "rights", they need to...
'A) Go out and get themselves a JOB (and also a haircut, but that one's just a nice-to-have side option), selling goods and services to willing customers!
...and...
'B) Buy themselves some up-to-date and tastefully-designed weapons with the proceeds of said job! It is NOT all that hard to do!!! (Unless you're a slacker).
""We" (whoever the "we" are in any given case) have the "rights" that we have earned and defended for ourselves. If fertilized egg cells (of ANY species!) want some "rights", they need to..."
By this logic, an infant is not a person due their rights. And if a family member of yours were incapacitated for a time, and unable to "earn and defend for themselves" would also be at the mercy of whoever wanted to do them harm. THat...isn't actually what you are saying, is it?
"Rights" is just nice-sounding bullshit! Power flows from the end of a gun, as Mao said! Go try to tell the people in North Korea about all of their "rights", and see if it does any good!
Language about "rights" should be replaced (by honest people) by language like "this is what I have pulled out of my ass, and-or thin air, about what YOU should do, ethically-morally". Sometimes the rights-proclaimers are evil, sometimes good, and usually shades of gray. You think that fartilized egg smells (but probably only HUMAN ones; you won't answer) have Sacred Rights! I think that this is power-pigging bullshit! It will not lead to GOOD things, in the real world! It will lead to, among other things, the triumph of "Lying Lothario", and slowly turning humans into harem-fighting elephant-seal-like beings, with the loss of what makes good fathers, as opposed to mere baby-generating beasts!
""Rights" is just nice-sounding bullshit! Power flows from the end of a gun, as Mao said! Go try to tell the people in North Korea about all of their "rights", and see if it does any good!"
Well then fuck off. You don't have any power here or anywhere. Indeed, you have lost the battle of power. We have the courts, and we govern your state. You are an overgrown baby capable of nothing but vomiting vulgar and puerile, half-sane nonsense from your fingertips. You can bitch and moan about how "wrong" it is, but by your own definition, we are in the Right, and you are wrong because you are powerless and disagree.
"Sometimes the rights-proclaimers are evil, sometimes good, and usually shades of gray."
Says you. You can't say what is good or evil because you lack the basic capability to reason morally. You can't even articulate what is "good" or "evil", so your statement is nothing but the ramblings of an old man.
"It will not lead to GOOD things, in the real world! "
That of course is only true if we adopt whatever warped version of "good" you have in your head. I'm sure the Nazis would have felt a world without Jews is "good" too. Fortunately, the world didn't consider Jews subhuman and disagreed with them. You can't tell what is good other than what feeeels right. And it feeeeels wrong to murder babies, so rather than articulate that, you denigrate them so you don't have to think about the consequences. This is the tactic used by ACTUAL evil people for thousands of years to justify the killing of humans.
"but probably only HUMAN ones; you won't answer"
I have answered this numerous times, and people in these threads know it. The problem SQRLSY is that you are spending so much time trying to invent thoughts in your opponents' heads that you haven't stopped to examine the thoughts in your heads.
If your argument is merely going to be "Might makes right", then your bitching and moaning is hypocritical. You have no might, so come back when you have some.
But if you are going to insist that there is some Good vs Evil that can be reasoned, then stop calling names and try to articulate it. Tell us the line where it is "good" if someone sticks a spike in a child's head out of convenience and the point where it is "evil". Once we understand whether it is "right" or "wrong" we can decide what (if anything) the state ought to do about it.
But you won't do that. Because you lack the moral clarity, and personal certitude to actually make these hard choices. So you fall back to saccarine analogies about flutes and fanatics.
"but probably only HUMAN ones; you won't answer"
I have answered this numerous times, and people in these threads know it.
You have NOT, you utter liar! You treasure the unborn HUMANS, and NOT other conscious beings, 'cause "God" told you to! (You just won't admit it). And you worship fartilized egg smells 'cause "God" likewise told you to do so! Just like "God" (or the angels) told Abraham to sacrifice (kill) Isaac! If you read the 11th chapter of "Judges", you will SEE that the ancient Israelites practiced human sacrifice (actually carried out the deed in this case); apparently "God" told them to do so! Of an already BORN human, in this case! If "God" tells me to sacrifice my already-born daughter, these days, they (rightly) put me in the loony bin! WHY are SOME people allowed to blame God for their evils, and others are NOT?
Do you know what consciousness is? A soul? Whether it even exists? When it sets in, exactly? What happens to the soul in case of a natural abortion? Ditto an induced abortion? What happens to the souls of abortion doctors who SAVE THE LIVES of women, so that they can give birth to viable babies in the future, while killing a non-viable fertilized egg cell in an ectopic pregnancy? What happens to the souls of babies that COULD have been born, but weren't, 'cause someone killed the abortion doctors, and these mothers were dead, and so, they couldn't give future viable births? What happens to the souls of much-wanted babies that WOULD be here, but aren't, if (fertilized-egg-killing or discarding) in-vitro fertilization is prevented by fanatics? How many souls are saved by punishing those who kill fertilized egg cells, and how MUCH punishment is needed? Do only HUMANS have souls? (Substitute "rights" for "souls" here at any place, if you want to keep it secular.) ... If you can use DATA FROM THE REAL WORLD to answer ANY of these questions, authoritatively, then you have some Nobel Prizes waiting for you!
Lacking ANY of this data, do you think that MAYBE you could restrain your self-righteous "punishment boner" just a wee tad?
when someone is due their human rights
Um........... Lets start with when they exist....
Then go onto; Nobodies human rights are absolute (they are inherent (self-sustaining) not "granted" by the enslavement of others.
They exist as soon as the egg and sperm combine. A new life is formed at that time. You are calling a normal biological action enslavement which isn't a very good basis to argue from. Is eating, drinking, sleeping, breathing also enslavement? Is working to earn money for food, or energy exerting raising your own food enslavement? The enslavement argument is jejune, sophomoric and emotional trope.
Set the "someone" FREE!!!!!
You're such a hack.
That is a terrible argument as I've already addressed. Calling me a hack is funny, as the set it free point is completely juvenile. Is a 6 month old infant able to survive on its own? Without any assistance? Since they can't, it means under the point you think you're making they are not a person and can be killed.
"Is a 6 month old infant able to survive on its own?" No, the parents are supposed to defend it from harm, without Nosenheimers or Buttinskies interfering. If the parents can NOT fully and well do their jobs, the child should be given up for adoption. YOU CAN'T GIVE A FERTILIZED EGG CELL UP FOR ADOPTION RIGHT AFTER IT IS IMPLANTED IN THE WOMB!!! HELLO?!?!!
Nosenheimers and Buttinskies, PLEASE butt OUT of other people's lives!!!
And calling me a hack isn't even original as I've used very similar verbage to describe you rather accurately. So, it isn't even an original point it's rather more along the lines of Pee-Wee Herman "I know you are but what am I?" level of discourse. It's pretty telling and very indicative of your ability to hold an adult conversation and be intellectually honest and original.
I used to be stridently anti-abortion (like completely zero allowance) but after many discussions with Nicki, my wife, and others here I realized that whatever arguments I would make about drugs or guns or big gulps applied to fetuses, at least up to a point. So maybe you’ve never gotten an answer because almost no one here is even hinting at punishing the mother? Or has said that they are against abortion at all times.
You fucks are so goddamn disingenuous though that you can’t even keep people who are nominally on your side from telling you to fuck off.
Sentencing a mother to 18 years of child care that they don't want to perform (or are ill equipped / situated to perform at a given time) is NOT punishing the mother? Hello?
No one is taking adoption off the table. Disingenuous as all hell.
Even just "merely" sentencing a woman to serve as "brood host" for X number of months is STILL sentencing her! And do you have a CLUE how hard it is (emotionally or sociobiologically-programmed-instinct-wise; the 2 are the same) for a woman to give up her "flesh and blood" to adoption? It is roughly analogous to asking a man to be anesthetized and get his pecker cut off! What is the big deal here?!?!? It will be PAINLESS, I assure you!!!
Reproductive mechanics are of little use when addressing legal questions concerning personhood. A "person," in contemplation of law, has always been much more than a living embryo. The embryo-cum-fetus, like intestinal bacteria, cannot live outside the body of another. The involuntary carrier is a full person -- likely a productive, taxpaying citizen as well. You cannot argue (Roe so holds) that the right of the non-viable passenger outweighs that of the involuntary host -- a fully realized, right-bearing person in the legal sense -- without necessarily arguing that pregnancy instantly forfeits a woman's right of bodily autonomy.
"Reproductive mechanics are of little use when addressing legal questions concerning personhood. A "person," in contemplation of law, has always been much more than a living embryo."
Up until the 1970's it was pretty clear that as soon as science had identified that there was a living individual, they were due protection from murder. Before the 1800s this was generally when others could see and feel the baby moving in the womb. As medical technology advanced, this was rendered to The Quickening as doctors now understood that there was a living being in the womb.
So contrary to your statement, from a legal perspective, the concern has generally been "when is there a living being there", not "when can it live outside the mom".
And god please do not let neonatal care advance to the place where "it" can live outside the womb at 22 weeks.
Why do you hate the robots from The Matrix?
The earliest pre term infant to survive survived at 19 weeks. Viability is a moving target. How do we define viability? With or without medical intervention? The viability debate as a hard deadline is not a sustainable one if we allow medical intervention, as medical care of pre-term infants has grown by leaps and bounds in the past couple of decades.
The earliest pre term infant to survive survived at 19 weeks.
You mean the clump of cells...
Great.. Let see if they all can be made individuals at 19-weeks.
I mean if you're all going to claim that's what it is.. PROVE it.
Setting the Fetus free should be a persistent individual right of all pregnant people. What's the point of enslaving the mother to enslave the ?baby? ( ?Enslavement? )
Not all of them can even make it at 40 weeks. What a stupid counter point.
make..........................???? A "person"...? Awh!!!
But hey in mythical creature land anything can be a person all you have to do is spread mountains of B.S. propaganda...
Lie, Lie, Lie, Lie, and Lie some-more; until the Lie becomes truth.
The "sheeple" will follow.
It's not a lie. I've actually have participated in multiple attempts to resuscitate a 40 week old term infant, born via normal vaginal deliveries. Some haven't made it.
The mythical thing is just so much juvenile trope. The fetus is not mythical. The question of it's right is a valid debate rather you like it or not. You have yet to make a valid point. You believe you have but everything you've stated so far I have countered and you haven't yet made a valid counterpoint. You have instead made rather puerile assertions not based in fact or science or logic.
"Pregnant people".
Pregnant women. ONLY women can get pregnant. full stop.
And now we have the medical technology for Fetal Ejection..
So why is "mom" even in the equation?
If only Roe had not prescribed any limits to abortion. But sadly, it did.
"You will be born in ze pod. You will live in ze pod. You will eat bugs in ze pod. Then you shall die and be harvested in ze pod! We don't particularly care if you're happy."
-WEF forum circa 2040
And I'll say it again... Roe v Wade is VERY VERY Pro-Life already.
But the Power-Mad just can't ever be satisfied.
It's not so much Roe but how the courts and legislatures have interpreted Roe.
Reproductive mechanics are of little use when addressing legal questions concerning personhood. A "person," in contemplation of law, has always been much more than a living embryo.
Law makes rulings on scientific teachings. Alas, science changes, it nulls former paradigms, adopts newer paradigms and is open to disavowing all previous paradigms to begin from scratch anew.
Example 1. The corpus of immunology has taught that monocytes are the precursors of macrophages. Just 20 years ago, it was discovered that macrophages also come from the fetal yolk sac and fetal liver tissue.
Example 2. Cardiology has taught for decades that atherosclerosis is a lipid storage disease. That changed 3 years ago. Atherosclerosis is now described as an inflammatory disease.
Example 3. For decades it was taught that the majority of our chromosomes was comprised of “junk DNA” and less than 4% of it was coding DNA genes. That idea was killed 15 years ago when it was discovered the “junk DNA” was epigenetic material that controlled the 4% coding DNA genetic material
In other words, science evolves. You should too.
Next you'll say eggs are both good and bad for us.
Throw out all of the yolks except for one because you need the yellow color to make it look like eggs!
Well Said Hickamore.... +10000000000
No, it isn't trying to limit the debate in such a manner to set a standard that prejudges the outcome. It completely invalidates any argument against your position without having to actually defend your position. It's juvenile.
It is well established that Congress can regulate medical devices and medications. They can pass a law that says that no state may place extra restrictions on FDA approved devices and drugs. That would at least save birth control and abortion drugs.
Agreed! Democrats bit off WAY too much at once! Let's get fascist-statist politicians on record as wanting to outlaw birth control methods (implantation-preventing IUDs for example, which "murder" fartilized egg smells), if that is where these authoritarians stand! (Baby steps, Democrats, baby steps, PLEASE!)
Nothing says anti-authoritarian like demeaning lives to "egg smells" so you don't have to deal with the consequences of killing them. Tell me about the jews next, SQRLSY.
Go worship your Sacred Fartilized Egg Smells, fanatic!
Imported from a reply to a previous hateful RANT of yours, in case you didn't read it!
Your extreme language reveals you to be the self-righteous fanatic that you are! Never, ever, have I said that abortion is a GOOD thing, or that anyone should be forced to have one! It is merely the LEAST BAD thing that people can do, in many different kinds of unfortunate circumstances! And so the law needs to stay OUT of the way!
Imagine that you say: "If I was on the balcony of a skyscraper, and I saw a madman on the balcony of a skyscraper across the street, shooting wildly into the crowd below... And I clearly had NO other method of stopping the madness immediately, then, if I had a rifle or other gun handy, I'd take careful aim, and shoot the madman dead."
Now do you think it would be a fair accusation for me to accuse you of promoting just going out there, willy-nilly, and shooting other people, whenever we feel like it?
Get a grip... You're falling victim to self-righteous, no-holds-barred fanaticism!
"It is merely the LEAST BAD thing that people can do, in many different kinds of unfortunate circumstances!"
I can definitely see that when you demean a human life to "egg smells" it is really easy to make that calculus. Tell me about the jews next.
"Now do you think it would be a fair accusation for me to accuse you of promoting just going out there, willy-nilly, and shooting other people, whenever we feel like it?"
But isn't that literally what you are accusing "fantatics" of doing? I mean here we have a bunch of people actively trying to kill people, and "fanatics" are trying to intervene- legally- and save those peoples' lives. And in the vast majority of cases those lives will be saved without consequence. In some small number of cases, they will be unable to prevent the killers from killing a life or two, and perhaps the killer will themselves be grievously injured or even die.
It seems to me you have made my case for me.
"Get a grip... You're falling victim to self-righteous, no-holds-barred fanaticism!"
No. It is not fanaticism to try and identify where life and human rights begin. The fanatics are the ones who stomp up and down, and ignore those hard moral questions and instead try to demean their opponents, and devalue the importance of their lives.
Me: There are two human beings at stake here, and their rights are both important.
You: Only one of those human beings is worth protecting or (alternatively) I am not interested in figuring out if there are two human beings here.
Once again your projection is deeply amusing, SQRLSY.
SQRLSY One: A much older, larger clump of cells.
Get a grip... You're falling victim to self-righteous, no-holds-barred fanaticism!
Says the self-righteous, histrionic, Axis II fanatic.
“We must PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH, and then KILL some abortion doctors, to SAVE the fertilized egg smells!!!”
AFTER one presents the facts (and the well-reasoned and ethical “right thing to do”), and the stupid and evil still resist… Because they are stupid and evil… Then one has to shrug, and say to oneself, “all that is left to me now, sad to say, is to warn others that we are dealing, here, with stupid and evil people”. John the Baptist AND Jesus had to deal with the same thing. Or do you think that THEY were stupid and evil, stupid and evil one?
https://biblehub.com/matthew/23-33.htm
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
SQRLSY: You are all fanatics! The Bible says so!
Never change, man. But maybe lay off the coffee after...1 or 2?
Jesus and Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. got themselves KILLED for speaking truth to the power-pigs! And today, the power pigs want to punish (KILL!!!) abortion doctors! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence ... The least I can do, is to speak up to oppose fanaticism!
I don't care if people hate me for truth-speaking! It is a duty of the ethically advanced ones!
"It is a duty of the ethically advanced ones!"
An ethically advanced person should be able to articulate when human rights begin and/or why one set of rights prevails over anothers'. But you can't do that.
You can't do it either! But you seem to imagine that "God" or some such, has given you the answer(s), AND the authority (with or without bothering to persuade the 51% of the voters, you have never said, that I have read) to impose YOUR beliefs on the rest of us! Power tripper!
Today we have (among much other tribalism) the True Tribe of the Fartilized Egg Smell Worshippers, v/s those who reject statist womb management.
The intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent members of tribes have ALWAYS been resented by those who are made to look relatively worse (often FAR worse), as compared to the advanced ones. Especially when the advanced ones denigrate tribalism. The advanced ones DARE to openly mock “MY Tribe’s lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD! Your tribe’s lies leading to violence against MY Tribe BAD! VERY bad!” And then that’s when the Jesus-killers, Mahatma Gandhi-killers, Martin Luther King Jr.-killers, etc., unsheath their long knives!
“Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
In conclusion, troglodytes, thanks for helping me to prove my points!
"Today we have (among much other tribalism) the True Tribe of the Fartilized Egg Smell Worshippers, v/s those who reject statist womb management."
Today we have SQRLSY once again displaying that he does not read the arguments of the people he screams at. I have been very clear that the moral question of murder is distinct from the moral question of what to do about it.
Of course, that is SQRLSY for you: he has such a hard time deciding what is echoing in his grey matter that figuring out what others think is nigh on impossible.
"...moral question of murder..." Eating meat is murder! War is murder! Killing a fartilized egg smell is murder! Murder is in the eye of the beholder, and throwing the word around is NO solution at ALL!
Only when we discuss THE RESULTS OF NEW LAWS, POLICIES, AND PUNISHMENTS in the real world, can we get REAL progress in resolving issues!
Aren't you conflating "long held" with "well established"?
Actually, the common thought is states may not pass laws that are less restrictive than federal law but may pass laws that are more restrictive. See gun control and background checks for examples.
The FDA is an UN-Constitutional Nazi-Regime Agency....
Any 5-year old that reads the Constitution without bias can tell you that.
Speaking from your childhood?
<a href="https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2022/may/12/randy-weaver-the-man-who-fought-federal-agents-at-/"I see noted ogre/cannibal/white supremacist Randy Weaver has died. Probably supported Trump.
Try that again.
U.S. Marshals attempted to arrest him after he failed to appear in court to face charges for manufacturing and possessing illegal shotguns. But Weaver refused to surrender.
That's one way of describing what happened.
Another way of describing what happened might look like this. Source: Encyclopedia Britannica:
Again, from Britannica:
So yeah, there you are, chillin' on your property when when some stranger in the woods shoots from the woods and kills your dog.
Do you:
1. Get on the ground and immediately surrender
2. Shout "I'm a white supremacist and I refuse to surrender."
3. Shoot back.
And remember, this was after the fist successful arrest:
Weaver was technically a white separatists not a supremacist. There is a difference, despite both being loathsome.
I'm glad you mentioned that because when someone says "attended an Aryan nations meeting, literally my first thought was, "While that's probably not someone I want to hang out with, it's possible they were a white separatist, not a white supremacist."
BLM and most of the modern left are white separatists.
"I like my peas and carrots separate"
"Ah, so you're a pea separatist!"
"No, I'm a carrot separatist."
Interestingly enough, Weaver disliked the Aryan Nations, which is why he only attended a couple of meetings and had stopped attending until the FBI tried coercing him into being an informant for them on the Aryan Nations. Additionally, there was only 25 of those fucks who ever actually lived on the compound and they were not visible within the community because they were hated within the community. The only time you ever saw them was when they held their annual parade (that the courts said Coeur d'Alene had to allow them to have, rightly under the 1A but the community was not supportive of the parades) and then the media always showed up to portray it like they had wide spread support, when most of the attendees were there to voice their protests of the parade and to heckle the parade members.
And of course it was the Spokesman Review, which has long been a proggie rag. Wonder what the Coeur d'Alene Press's take in this is?
don't just do nothing, stand there.
I don't think you got that quite right.
Perhaps a Solomonic compromise: abort only half the baby.
The bill should have been titled “Fuck the 10th Amendment and the Horse It Rode In On”.
I am not thrilled with Wickard and its progeny but at least they only criminalized acts that should have been state-level crimes.
This — can I call it an “abortion” — this abortion straight-up made state legislatures into creatures of the Congress. It read Federalism right out of the Constitution.
"The bill should have been titled 'Fuck the 10th Amendment and the Horse It Rode In On'."
Yeah, but then we'd have to name all the bills that.
"I am not thrilled with Wickard and its progeny but at least they only criminalized acts that should have been state-level crimes."
Strongly disagree. For starters why should growing any amount of wheat on your own property to feed your own animals be a crime?
The Women's Health Protection Act of 2022
When ardent defenders of abortion literally refuse-- on camera-- to say "pregnant women", you know that bill was doomed to fail.
Literally shaking at the transphobia of the bill.
They wanted equality, now they have the same right to choose as a man.
They don't want equality. They want equity. Because they discovered that equality sucks ballz.
+1000000000000
Observers have called this bill the "'Don't say baby' bill"
Aborto Freaks won't be happy until they overturn Griswold and outlaw birth control pills.
The great Barry Goldwater warned us that when Christo fascism takes over the GOP liberty will be lost.
The GOP is the American Taliban.
Oh, and Democrats suck too. I would like a party that maximizes liberty but I'm like one of 100 voters who wants liberty over state/church liberty.
State/church tyranny rather.
Initially I read this as State/Church Tranny which in our current environ is far more apropos.
Libertarians for Tranny rights!
Everyone here knows you're a Democrat, why do you keep pretending?
When you defend against biden longer than Vox and CNN youre a pretty hard-core democrat.
You outed me. I'm a Goldwater Democrat. Jefferson Democrat. The best government is the one that governs least.
Remember Ayn Rand hated Reagan and campaigned against him.
Ironically; Time has proven it's always the DEMOCRATS who won't be happy until they overturn Griswold and outlaw birth control pills...
And there only ONE thing holding them back; Republicans decided to be Pro-Choice till 'viability'... Democrats live to be tyrants.
Without a SCOTUS backed individual right to healthcare choice for EVERYONE'S Pregnant Wife.. YOUR pregnant wife is now entirely at the whim of the [WE] mob...
That's how it works folks.
Bullshit. The pure intellectual dishonesty it takes to write shit like this is breathtaking. The more idiots like you sound off, the more I rethink my support for any abortions. When I see the intellectual dishonesty and pure hyperbole of the raging pro-choice crowd it leads me to wonder if allowing any abortions can honestly be argued. The more you idiots sound off with pure bullshit and hatred and demagoguery the more likely you are to push those of us who are more moderate into the camp of the other side.
lol... Was there a point there beside which GANG you side with?
You have yet to make a point that doesn't require emotional attacks against a straw man you created. It's rather ironic that you criticize me for the lack of a point when the post I was responding to was nothing but emotional trope and demagoguery. You didn't make a point, you made an emotional attack, that wasn't even accurate. It was a false caricature and meant to illicit a sense of shaming. You really aren't that mature or well informed. Your style is puerile, and emotionally manipulative not meant to add anything to the debate but to badger people into siding with you. Instead it is just off putting.
Plenty of intellectual dishonesty and hyperbole on the "pro-life" side as well and this board is a example of that. In any case, reacting to excesses in arguments by one side cannot be a valid reason for changing ones point.
Elsewhere you posit sane and informed opinions about abortions and reasonable limits. The problem is "pro-life" activists in government - state legislatures across red America - are not proposing reasonable limits except as constricted by Roe v Wade and that gone, so will be any rights for abortion. At last 10 of the 12 states with recent legislation have no exception for rape or incest, which tells you how exactly radical they are. May I also mention the punitive outlook of many of the "pro-life" comments who in seeking to enforce their moral code on others often cite their lack of empathy for young passion which has probably long ago become dormant in their own lives. We are in fact passionate as a matter of evolution and one would expect there to be understanding and therefore toned down judgemental pronouncements about the sluts ... excuse me, young women.
As to nomenclature and "dishonesty, no, an embryo is not a "baby" or an "infant" and while viability changes with medical advancements, a reasonable reinterpretation of Roe, which gets the issues right, even if one disagrees with the specifics, would allow for adjusting dates based on those advancements.
Lastly, late term abortion is rare as you note and mostly done for medical reasons which are often horrendous. Try a baby born with no brain and no future beyond months of pain and suffering for itself and family, which by the way will also be absorbing outlandish medical bills to go with their slow moving nightmare. How many women will carry a pregnancy for 8 months and then decide to abort for convenience? Maybe a very few, but not many. Exceptions for medical decisions should be standard.
Glenn Greenwald goes scorched earth on the Ukraine $44bb aid package, AOC, the Squad and the hypocritical left in general.
Is it possible for one pro-choice individual to make an honest point that doesn't involve a straw man, ad hominem, or other logical fallacy about the pro-life community and who is actually able to make a well reasoned argument about personhood, that is scientifically accurate? Because I haven't seen one yet since the leak occurred on here or the media. I consider myself pro-choice but I see nothing wrong with limits after 15 or 16 weeks, with a few exceptions, however, the level of dishonesty and science illiteracy of the pro-choice advocates in the comment sections (not to mention the writers) is really turning me into more of a pro-life hardliners.
I've seen it argued the fetus can't survive without the placenta. Well, duh the placenta is a fetal organ, the same as the heart, so that is like saying you can't survive without your heart or liver. I've seen people conflate the term baby and infant, and argue the fetus isn't a baby by definition and science. Baby, however, isn't a scientific word, infant is. I've seen that legally it's been ruled it isn't a person, both under the 14A and by legal code, however, the 14A doesn't state that and the legal code they cite actually states that the legal definition is not meant to infer or deny any rights to anyone. I've seen posters argue they are not even human, which is demonstrably not the case. That they are parasites, again not by the scientific definition of parasites. That sex has no biological function/purpose, that nothing has a biological function/purpose. Again, this is scientifically incorrect. Look up the definition of purpose and it specifically addresses what a biological purpose is. Just because we enjoy sex doesn't change what the biological function/purpose of sex evolved for. That the fetus isn't alive, which again is scientifically inaccurate, or that it is alive but like a skin cell or cancer, which again is not scientifically valid. I could go on, but why bother?
The fact is is that abortion is not morally defensible, however, rights don't have to be morally defensible. So, we do have two competing rights, and the best thing to do in that situation is to arrive at a some method of balancing those rights, a compromise. Enforcement of total ban would be to far, but abortion at any stage is to far, so we need to have reasonable middle ground.
Viability is often used, however, viability isn't a fixed number, and how do you define viability? Is it the ability to live without medical intervention? Which, let's face it, a morally dubious definition that opens a whole other can of worms. I've seen the argument (poorly made) about prefrontal cortex maturation, or development. This isn't a set time point and is a process that begins soon after conception and continues until the mid 20s (years old not weeks). I've seen the argument about needing support from the mother. But again this could also be used to justify infanticide and other unwanted outcomes. Even if fed formula, the newborn infant requires the care of others to survive, and does so until arguably their early teens and if taken even further, we all basically rely on someone else for survival, except possibly some off grid hippies (and even then, that can be argued differently).
It just dismays me how bad the pro-choice crowd is in defending their positions without personal attacks and demagoguery.
For me, the viability argument gets some of its teeth from the fact that, in no other scenario that comes to mind do we allow the state to compel a person to provide some kind of life-sustaining biological support. We can't force someone to donate a kidney, skin, or even blood. So, even if you want to go argue that a fetus is a person, that would become a blind alley, because we don't even do that for individuals that we _all_ agree on as being "people".
"But aren't there laws that say, once you _start_ providing support, you can't recind it?". I don't know if there really are, but you could argue that a pregnant woman didn't _willingly_ start supporting the embryo (either in cases of rape, deception, or just failure of reasonable contraception methods). If someone passes out and wakes up to find that they're donating blood to the person beside them, are they allowed to yank the tubes and walk out?
"But in this case, the woman is the _only_ one who can biologically support the fetus; it's not like she's one of many who could do it". Doesn't matter. We wouldn't do that to someone who was the only kidney match for someone needing a donor.
Au contraire, we do have laws that require you to provide life giving care to people. You have to provide care to a child in your custody. Or provide some means for others to care for it, i.e. give it up for adoption. You can't just abandon it to fend for itself. As soon as it's born you have to provide for it's care or have a plan for others to provide for it's care. Since we are debating rather or not the fetus deserves care, child endangerment and similar laws would be pertinent, wouldn't they?
I’m all for a rational choice option (personally 20 weeks as abortions after that are exceedingly rare anyways), but fuck if it doesn’t drive me absolutely bonkers when morons try to argue that it’s a parasite or isnt alive, or better yet, not human. All of their arguments are incredibly unscientific, illinformed, and some border on insanely stupid.
I see nothing wrong with 15 or 16 weeks, it seems to work for most of the western world without any major controversy and 4 months seems long enough to make a decision. An extra month the other way probably won't change much, almost all abortions are done during the first trimester anyhow.
Quickening happens around 16 weeks give or take a few weeks, and almost no one seeks abortion after quickening according to the statistics. That's why pro choice absolutists are so opposed to any bill that requires medical consult or ultrasound, because women rarely choose abortions once they can conceptualize the fetus as a separate being. We just aren't wired that way. Most humans are wired to feel compassion and empathy towards young things. Which makes sense considering we evolved large brains, which in trade off meant we had a fairly long gestation period and period of maturation. Also, we rarely carry and can produce more than one young per year which requires extensive care after it is born. So it is only logical that we evolved an instinct that compels us to protect and care for young animals, especially human children. As a male this instinct is slightly less, but even most of us males have much more of this instinct than other mammals.
Instinct doesn't end with enlightenment or civilization. Evolution can't be discounted because of feelings.
Don’t mistake me, I’d be fine with that too, I just imagine that if we’re having to compromise to finally take this issue off the table, the halfway point is good enough.
I think there are many reasons the pro-abortion people have for not liking those bills or arguing disingenuously. None of them are flattering to their position.
My approach is to take my brain death standard and apply them backwards. If the subject has no functioning cerebral cortex and the brain stem is unable to support breathing, it's not a legal living person.
The point at which the brain stem starts supporting the breathing reflex is early in the second trimester, and the cerebral cortex doesn't start to function until later, so I'm perfectly fine with first-trimester abortions.
Later on, I am reluctantly willing to consider allowing elective induced premature delivery. That is, I see an argument that it is improper to demand that the woman continue carrying the baby, but even on the days (about half of them) when I grant the woman a right to demand an end to the pregnancy, that doesn't extend to allowing actions that directly kill or injure the baby as opposed to those involved in just removing it, living and intact, from her body.
Whether I'm "pro-choice" or not is then a matter of your local definitions, and maybe what day it is.
I think those are perfectly reasonable positions to take.
It isn't that the cerebral cortex doesn't start functioning until later in the second trimester, it's rather that at this point there is a sudden spike in activity. That doesn't mean it isn't functioning before this point, but that the level of activity suddenly increases. The brain stem seems reasonable. The cerebral cortex less so, because development can and does continue rather it is in utero or not. Development continues into your twenties.
The cerebral cortex bit is there because it's possible for a thinking-feeling-communicating adult human being to have specific damage to the brain stem that messes with their ability to breathe, and I'm not going to declare them brain dead because of that injury if the upper brain functions are fine.
The key point is that while the exact line between "person" and "technically-alive member of homo sapiens who isn't a person anymore" are blurry, we are indeed willing to draw a version of that line before the biological end of life, based on brain function. Reversed to determine the beginning of a human life, that same line happens at some point after the end of the first trimester.
I cant see how banning an abortion pill could be constitutional. We have a clear and defined right to medical technology. And an abortion pill is hardly a cutting edge technology. As old as bittermellon to be plain. Im all about cutting back subjectivist incusions on natural law but im all about ot to a near absolutist stance besides being dead set against absolutisms beyond, everything is a poison, it's simply a matter of dosage.
That's why they could ban doctors from prescribing ivermectin right?
"I cant see how banning an abortion pill could be constitutional"
Well, you see, it's like this: you start by building a SCOTUS that has a conservative social agenda, and then they just _say_ that such a ban is constitutional.
And you're going to do _what_ about it?
It's put best in a quote I heard attributed to some SCOTUS justice: "We're not final because we're _infallible_. We're infallible because we're _final_".
Yeah, it’s not like the previous administration made it so that people have a right to try (for experimental treatments). And the liberals in government have totally been tripping over themselves for two years trying to get people to try anything that might lessen the impact of covid. Oh wait…
Banning medications has a long history that predates any scary conservative majority. Not a convincing argument.
Is TJ a Sqrsly sock, well TJ is a bit more coherent, their debate (or more accurately lack thereof) style is extremely similar.
This article seems to do a little bit of pearl-clutching about how the WHPA would have gone _beyond_ Casey, as though that's magically the sweet spot for abortion rights.
News flash #1: SCOTUS is going to toss Casey into the dustbin along with Roe.
News flash #2: Casey was a waypoint in conservatives' decades-long erosion of abortion rights (the best they could do at the time, not yet having achieved the ideological capture of SCOTUS that they enjoy today).
So, trying to frame a bill that restores pre-Casey rights as being beyond the pale is just an arbitrary choice by the author.
But the bill didn't even re-establish pre Casey. It included a lot of other poison pill amendments that were guaranteed not to get Republican votes, nor even Manchin's vote. The author just highlighted some of them. It was a bad bill introduced and voted on for publicity sake alone. Schumer even basically said as much when asked about the possibility of compromise or trying to build a consensus, bipartisan bill. He stated he wasn't interested in consensus and wanted to put people on record before the election. It was always a campaign ploy. Schumer as much as said so.
We can disagree on the political strategy. I think Schumer should have tried hard to get Collins and Murkowski on board but that would also be for political purposes because their vote would have no effect on the outcome either. In this case getting a vote serves a very useful purpose in a democracy of putting all our reps on the record. Good.
In fact the time between Roe and Casey was a period in which even the limits established in Roe were often ignored by pro-choice courts that expanded abortion access in contradiction to the limits that Roe stated were reasonable.
Casey really was the courts re-establishing the limits that Roe had established. So anything that contradicts Casey actually also contradicted Roe in many ways.
Pictured in op: blonds, fags, and bleach blond fags.
Everyone so manly they dont even need testicles except when they want to whore their bleach blond asses...
Everyone here is everyone that would never be called to field a theater of war. Except would just bed one when their men lost...
Thetes no reason they should have equal voting rights.
Bleach blond hookers and junky homos for unchecked abortion rights...
Yeah, looks legit.....
Its time we charge prostitutes as the sex predators they are.
It seems to follow that if Congress can prohibit barriers to abortion under the Commerce Clause, it can also erect barriers.
Is there nothing the Commerce Clause doesn't cover?
The manufacture and sale of FDA approved abortifacients (and contraceptives) are very clearly interstate commerce. And thousands of pregnant women (and girls) have travelled to other states to obtain abortions, thus rendering abortions interstate commerce.
Just because states regulate doctors doesn't mean that states should have a right to deny women of their natural right to abortion by imposing Papal decree banning all (or virtually all) abortions.