Do Americans Who Support Roe v. Wade Understand Its Implications?
Although recent polls show a majority thinks the abortion precedent should be preserved, some respondents seem confused about what that would mean.

Jesse Wegman, a member of the New York Times editorial board, says polling shows the Supreme Court, which is expected to overturn Roe v. Wade next month, is "out of step with most Americans." To support that claim, Wegman points to Gallup results indicating that "an overwhelming majority of Americans still support a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy in at least some circumstances." But since that "overwhelming majority" includes people who describe themselves as "pro-life" and therefore probably favor tight restrictions on abortion, the finding that Wegman cites does not tell us what Americans think about specific policies. Nor does it tell us whether they think those policies should be left to the states, which is what overturning Roe would do.
Gallup and other polling organizations have asked more pertinent questions, and the results do indicate that most Americans support Roe. But polling anomalies suggest that some of the people who take that position do not fully understand what it entails. And as critics of Roe would be quick to point out, constitutional adjudication is not a popularity contest, which makes the relevance of polling data questionable.
With that caveat in mind, what do recent surveys tell us about the popularity of the Court's impending decision? A Fox News poll of registered voters conducted on Monday, before Politico published a leaked draft of a Supreme Court majority opinion that suggests Roe is doomed, asked, "Do you think the Supreme Court should overturn Roe v. Wade or let it stand?" Only 27 percent of respondents said the Court should overturn Roe, while 63 percent said it should not and 10 percent declined to take a position.
At the same time, however, 54 percent of respondents thought their own states should pass "a law banning abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy." That is precisely the sort of law at issue in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, the case that the Court is expected to decide next month. Dobbs involves a Mississippi law that generally prohibits abortion after 15 weeks, which is plainly inconsistent with the Court's abortion precedents.
Under Roe's framework, states were not allowed to regulate abortion based on "the potentiality of human life" until the third trimester, and even then they had to make exceptions for abortions deemed necessary to preserve "the life or health of the mother." Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the 1992 decision that retained Roe's "central holding," forbade any regulation that "has the purpose or effect of placing a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion of a nonviable fetus."
Since the dividing line for "viability" (the point at which the fetus can survive outside the womb) is generally said to be around 24 weeks, a ban like Mississippi's is a non-starter under Casey, which is why upholding the law would require revising or repudiating Casey and Roe. It seems a substantial number of the Fox News respondents who said Roe should be preserved did not realize that.
A Marquette University Law School poll conducted last fall showed a similar inconsistency. While just 21 percent of respondents favored overturning Roe (which the poll described as "the 1973 decision that made abortion legal in all 50 states"), 37 percent said the Court should uphold Mississippi's law. Maybe the difference can be explained by respondents who imagined a scenario where Roe was substantially revised without being overturned altogether. More likely, some of the respondents did not understand that Roe and Casey preclude a 15-week ban. Notably, a third of respondents said they either knew nothing about Roe or did not know enough to offer an opinion, while 30 percent said the same about bans on abortion after 15 weeks.
A Politico/Morning Consult poll conducted on Tuesday, after the leaked opinion was published, put the Roe question this way: "As you may already know, the Supreme Court is going to rule on a case this year that challenges Roe v. Wade, the 1973 legal decision that established the constitutional right to abortion. Do you believe that the Supreme Court should overturn its decision in the 1973 Roe v. Wade abortion case, or not?" Half of the respondents said Roe "should not be overturned," while 28 percent said it should and 22 percent offered no opinion.
Here, too, there is evidence of confusion. Nearly half of respondents (47 percent) said "abortion should be legal in the U.S. nationwide," which is consistent with upholding Roe. But while 28 percent of respondents favored overturning Roe, just 19 percent agreed that "state governments should decide whether abortion is legal or illegal in their states," which is what would happen if Roe were overturned.
Between 1989 and 2002, Gallup phrased its Roe question this way: "The 1973 Roe versus Wade decision established a woman's constitutional right to abortion, at least in the first three months of pregnancy. Would you like to see the Supreme Court completely overturn its Roe versus Wade decision, or not?" That wording was a bit misleading, since both Roe and Casey rule out bans on pre-viability abortions, not just abortions in the first trimester. Furthermore, the question left no room for a middle position that would allow, say, a 15-week ban like Mississippi's but not a six-week ban like the one that took effect in Texas last September.
Gallup's wording since 2003 avoids those problems but is even less informative about what Roe said: "Would you like to see the Supreme Court overturn its 1973 Roe versus Wade decision concerning abortion, or not?" Last year, 58 percent of respondents said Roe should not be overturned, while 32 percent said it should and 10 percent offered no opinion.
Again, it looks like the pro-Roe respondents were not necessarily familiar with the details of that ruling. While 32 percent wanted to ditch Roe, 41 percent said abortion should be banned after 18 weeks, which would require at least weakening Roe.
The results from an ABC News/Washington Post poll conducted last week present less of a puzzle. The share of respondents who opposed a 15-week ban (57 percent) was similar to the share who wanted the Court to uphold Roe (54 percent). A total of 66 percent said the Court should either maintain the status quo (45 percent) or make abortion access easier (21 percent).
The most commonly discussed Gallup results—the ones that Wegman cited in the Times—tend to obscure the diversity of Americans' views on abortion. Last year, 32 percent of respondents said abortion should be "legal under any circumstances." Just 19 percent said abortion should be "illegal in all circumstances." A plurality of 48 percent said abortion should be "legal only under certain circumstances."
Based on those numbers, Wegman is right that "an overwhelming majority of Americans still support a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy in at least some circumstances." But the plurality's view covers a wide range of policies, from liberal laws that allow abortions in nearly all cases to strict laws with just a few narrow exceptions. The plurality apparently includes a lot of people who lean toward the latter position, since 47 percent of respondents described themselves as "pro-life" but only 19 percent said abortion should always be illegal.
In a 2019 Pew Research Center poll, 70 percent of respondents said Roe should not be "completely" overturned, while 28 percent said it should and 3 percent gave no answer. Consistent with the evident support for abortion rights, 61 percent of respondents said abortion should be legal in "all" or "most" cases, while 38 percent said it should be illegal in "all" or "most" cases.
The key question for the Supreme Court, of course, is not what most Americans think about abortion. It is whether the Constitution guarantees a right to abortion—or, to put it another way, whether the Constitution imposes limits on state regulation of abortion. Judging not only from the leaked opinion but also from the oral arguments, most of the justices think it does not.
Another consideration in deciding whether to renounce Roe—one that played an important role in Casey and seems to carry weight with Chief Justice John Roberts—is the extent to which Americans have come to rely on the freedom guaranteed by the Court's abortion precedents, whether or not those cases were correctly decided. New York Times columnist Bret Stephens, for example, concedes that "Roe v. Wade was an ill-judged decision when it was handed down." But he argues that overturning it half a century later would be "a radical, not conservative, choice" because of the longstanding expectations it would upset. For those who find that argument compelling, polling data might seem relevant after all.
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Bad law is bad law and there should be no hesitation in striking it down.
Maybe they can strike Dred Scott v Sandford next.
The 13th and 14th Amendments already did that.
No, they rendered it moot.
By overturning it through explicitly outlawing its results.
news chick on Canal Ocho here in Dallas was literally just talking about how Texas never struck the Lawrence v. Texas law and how we are headed right back to no gaysex ... on the 5:00 news
Maybe Congress should laws rendering these things moot.
Well, I would oppose gay sex on the five o'clock news; kids might be watching.
Would you rather they learn about it in some alley?
Kids should learn about butt sex in kindergarten, from professional teachers.
Finally a sane voice!
I see you’ve been talking to Jeffy.
Their kindergarten teacher should also be deciding what gender kids are. Because that education school degree makes them experts on biology.
But straight sex on the five o'clock news is OK then?
How much straight sex have you watched on the five o'clock news, Sqrlsy?
I've seen NO actual human sex on the news. So then WHY is it necessary to rail against GAY sex specifically?
I'd probably tune in to either.
So you're saying that learning about raising a traditional family and showing how that is supposed to be is comparative to showing gay relationships? That is moronic at best! No wonder the country is going to sh**t!
What, too much gay sex and not enough straight sex is endangering the survival of the human race, or some such? Populations keep on going up... What is your evidence? Love is love, and hate is hate, no matter WHAT the underlying motives, or the flavors, are! If a white person and a black person love each other, and aren't hurting anyone else, why should we get in their way? If 2 women, ditto? If 2 men, ditto? Love is scarce enough already, without us getting in the way of it (setting up stumbling blocks on their roads), especially when we have no reason other than to primp and preen about how we are better than they are!
Tony hardest hit, just not in the rectum, for once,
Maybe a level of control over disinformation is needed, just not a partisan hack led DHS 'advisory' board.
The 13th amendment literally banned conscription too, but the Supremes equivocated that part to bail out the banks that lent money to Germany's adversaries. SOME slavery was therefore relegalized. The current judicial Army of God wants to revive Comstockist power to send men with guns to again force women into involuntary labor of reproduction, as on confederate plantations. Lincoln's 2-part proclamation mentions SOME confederate states. Louisiana, for instance, wasn't on Lincoln's list.
What a comparison! Mothers are nurturers and protectors of children. What does it say when they willy nilly rip their unborn children from their wombs? What kind of moral and ethical society do we think will come from randomly killing future children? This is a ridiculous, childish, disingenuous, immoral, heartless, and soulless act. Most of you ever wonder what would have happened if YOU were aborted? You should...
What law? No legislation was ever passed. The court will be striking down a bad court decision.
Yeah, but the entire profession of law is based on precedents. As Gulliver explained, "It is a maxim among these men that whatever has been done before may legally be done again, and therefore they take special care to record all the decisions formerly made, even those which have through ignorance or corruption contradicted the rules of common justice. These, under the name of precedents, they produce as authorities, and thereby endeavor to justify the most iniquitous opinions; and they are so lucky in this practice that they rarely fail to secure decrees according to their expectation."
I like that! Pertinent for this very topic.
Roe was adjudicated on perjured testimony. Casey was adjudicated on a false premise about an arcane state law that was rarely used. It was up to the states to change that arcane law. The constitution doesn't give one the right to break a state's law and, an illegal transaction has nothing to do with the privacy of a couple's bedroom or kitchen or attic.
It doesn't grant individuals the right to receive and keep stolen property just because it is in their living room.
Yup, the constitution is a real pain in tuckus, especially for politicians, tyrants, the selfish and the ignorant.
Am I mistake or was the entire article about what opinion polls think is a good cutoff or limitation on abortions.... The entire point of Roe v Wade was that its not anyone else's business.
Mother Theresa doesn't need constitutional rights, Larry Flint does!
You are correct about the article, highlighting the inaccuracy of polling ignorant individuals.
The constitution does not afford Larry the right to take pictures of unclothed under age girls, just because it happened in the privacy of his studio.
No. most Americans who profess to support Roe don't know what it means. They think it means that the government cannot ban early term abortions but can ban late term abortions. They think that because the left and the media has lied to them and wants them to believe that is what Roe means. In reality, Roe means that the government can do virtually nothing to limit even the latest term and most gruesome abortions nor even regulate the butchers who provide such services.
If the media were anything but lying leftist hacks and told the truth about what Roe actually means, it wouldn't be a very popular decision.
People are going to do what people are going to do so enough with the bad media bullshit! Get your filthy paws off my uterus you damn authoritarian!
Stop murdering your children and the government will do that.
Briggs, Putin-like, wants to "denazify" women's wombs, by invading and rent-controlling them! NO evictions allowed; your womb belongs to Briggs; NOT to YOU, lowly peon! "Your" womb is Putin-Brigg's womb, ye woman-NAZI who needs to be "denazified"!
German nationalsocialism had Aryan Lebensborn policies backed by castration/sterilization laws imported from the Comstockist States of America that were immensely popular there. Monteiro Lobato, of of Brazil's most popular writers, advocated for forced sterilization and Spartan-style War on race-suicide. Count on Long Dong to back those for God's Own Politicians, and the Libertarian Party to revert back to its 1972 plankm, so see that slave-catchers do not point guns at women or doctors.
No more Roe! Suck it bitch.
ALL libertarians (lovers of individual freedom) need to be "denazified", dammit! Authoritarians and totalitarians have said so!!!! All Hail and BOW LOW NOW, dammit!
lol... It's "children" now???
Next week; it'll be driving and getting job yeah???
Delusional.... Completely Delusional.
Government press gangs have enslaved and murdered youngsters in glib defiance of the 13th Amendment in 1898. The Selective Service Act again enslaved Americans--to throttle the Accursed Hun so British Indian and Burmese slaves, Dutch Indonesians, French coolies in Cochin-china and Belgian colonial peasants could be addicted to non-German morphine. That way Metropole Big Pharma cartels welched on war loans taken from gullible Americans just the same. Slavery is murder and a violation of individual rights.
If the government can deny you the right to have an abortion, they can also force you to have one.
You don't have a uterus, Shrike, and the one in that little girl you have chained up in your basement isn't "yours".
Also, if lazy sluts don't use the pill and condoms when they're doing an activity that's sole reason for existing is to put babies in uteri, they shouldn't be mad when a new life takes residence.
They put their child there, they made a choice. For the next nine months that uterus belongs to two people. Both who have rights.
Mammary-Fuhrer the Perfect Necrophilian Reptilian does not give ONE hoot about women who have been impregnated by Lying Lothario, and wants us to all evolve into fighting-for-harems elephant-seal-like beings, incapable of taking fatherly care of their young, but willing to trample on, and kill, the young, during mating-rights-fights! What a surprise!
Are there any other forms of slavery that you advocate?
What a piss poor attempt at moral righteousness.
I'm pro abortion, but I have the integrity to admit I'm pro other forms of homicide as well.
For example: dudes who make dishonest arguments favoring abortion.
Pedo Jeffy hardest hit.
"not butchering babies is slavery"
Yeah, not lynching Negroes, not stuffing Jews in ovens and not storing raped a cannibalized young men under floorboards.
Have you got any other forms of horrific murder that you want to categorize as "slavery" while we're at it?
Fucking ghoulish piece of shit.
Here is "pro-life" Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer, bragging about her "pro-life" fanaticism, while also, on a regular basis, in these comments, urging the anti-totalitarians, the ANTI-NAZIs, to commit suicide! ... Can you say "hypocritical, hateful asshole"?
What "baby"???
Yes because pregnancy is of course the lazy sluts fault and she must be made to pay for her transgressions. At issue is the fact that pregnancy takes two participants but misogynistic a-holes like you don't understand that the consequences are unfairly distributed. So no on the use of the uterus being anything other than at the sole discretion of the owner Also if you think sex is solely for the purpose of procreation you are either a sad religious fundamentalist or a virgin, perhaps both.
Why did you assume that 'lazy sluts' referred to women?
Or that the onus is being put on a single person?
Also, if lazy sluts don't use the pill and condoms when they're doing an activity that's sole reason for existing is to put babies in uteri, they shouldn't be mad when a new life takes residence.
They put their child there, they made a choice.
Despite the trans lobby's insistence 'they' is NOT a singular.
And there are definitely two sluts being referred to here. The one that uses the pill, and the one that uses a condom.
The first and second Libertarian platforms urged the repeal of all usurpations similar to those fastened upon the unhappy inhabitants of the revolting slave-catching states of Texas, Alabama, Mississippi... After Roe v Wade the LP was invaded by a Trojan Horse stuffed with national socialist mystical bigots and communist anarchists. Our vote increase slope went from nearly vertical 46 to 4 to -1 as idiotic planks replaced original demands.
It is expected: men will get vasectomies. Men will do whatever women want. Men will read women's mind to determine what women want. Sex robots will be the final nail in the coffin for feminism.
What "child"???
"Get your filthy paws off my uterus you damn authoritarian!"
I'm pretty sure there are some who actually get turned on with having filthy paws on their uterus (and perhaps other places).
I think the abortionist wash their hands before they reach in the uterus and kill the baby.
Technically roe and Casey allowed regulation based on a magic line of viability that was defined randomly by the courts as time passed.
Kind of like a penalty is a tax?
And asset forfeiture is not stealing.
Casey was an alteration to the regulation that Roe imposed.
It too twenty fucking years for that alteration.
Having to go through the byzantine process one needs to get something before the Supremes is the worst way get alterations to their self-made regulation.
RETURN ABORTION REGULATIONS TO THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS!
BECAUSE [WE] MOBS RULE!!!!!!!!! /s
Viability is a sensible line. It isn't arbitrary like "heartbeat" (without a heart), 6 weeks, 15 weeks, or some other random period of time.
Viability is literally the line between a fetus' inability to survive outside the womb and gaining that ability. It makes perfect sense.
You can dispute the legal reasoning which, to most people, is pretty esoteric. But viability as a standard is easily understood and widely supported.
And viability is a moving target as medical advancements increase. We have several infants now born pre-24 weeks that are living fairly healthy lives.
Also,see below about the accuracy of common methods for dating fetal age and the inherent level of margin of error in those methods.
And the heart does exist at 6 weeks, it's just a much less developed heart.
At 6 weeks the fetal heart tissue is there and actively contracting and moving blood, however it isn't the fully developed four chamber heart that will develop later, it's two chambers, the ventricles and atriums not having separated. Some pro-choice people have used this difference to argue that the heart doesn't exist, but the heart beat that is picked up (and ultrasounds) demonstrates that there is a heart, it's just not fully developed at that point.
So in other words it's sophistry by some pro-choice activists to state the heart doesn't exist. It's like staying the skull doesn't exist in an infant because the skull is still developing, or in adolescent, as bone mineralization is still ongoing until their early 20s.
Or that the brain doesn't exist until age 25, because the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until around this age.
"And the heart does exist at 6 weeks, it's just a much less developed heart."
The heart absolutely does not exist at 6 weeks. https://www.livescience.com/65501-fetal-heartbeat-at-6-weeks-explained.html
"After the detection of the flutter at six weeks, the heart muscle continues to develop over the next four to six weeks, undergoing the folding and bending that needs to happen for the heart to take its final shape"
The "flutter" is what anti-abortionists call a heartbeat. Unfortunately for them, the heart doesn't form until 10-12 weeks. But at this point dishonesty from anti-abortionists is the expectation, since the facts are against them.
Most "anti" abortionist are honest, unlike most anti fetus radicals, who are incredibly, not honest, and stridently disingenuous
And with new medical advancements 24 weeks isn't even the standard anymore.
It's changed by what, a few days in the 51 years I've been on the planet? And you think that claiming a tube isn't a heart is sophistry. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Briggs:
Do most people who are against Roe understand that most late term abortions are for medical reasons - who the fuck do you think carries a pregnancy for 8 months and then decides abort for no good reason? How many know that most states enacting these restrictions also make no exception for rape and incest?
Cite?
Try this:
https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/
So late term abortions are so rare that making them part of the discussion is just asinine. Additionally, late term abortions actually carry higher risk factors and take longer to correct life threatening conditions than inductions or cesareans. So medically speaking they aren't really warranted.
Call me crazy, but I think a doctor should be the one to determine what treatment someone you've never met might need.
Is it so hard to let people consult with their doctor and make their own decisions about their own medical care? All cultural conservatives seem to want to do is inject the state between a doctor and a patient.
Why should ignorant strangers have control over anyone else's medical decisions?
This is how you know that this fact sheet is a piece of obfuscation. In the intro, it states: "Reasons individuals seek abortions later in pregnancy INCLUDE medical concerns such as fetal anomalies or maternal life endangerment, as well as barriers to care that cause delays in obtaining an abortion." However, the rest of the paper attempts to imply that these are the only reasons late term abortions occur, which is contradicted by this sentence. The issue, and the reason why they are able to obfuscate comes from Roe v. Wade's companion case Doe v. Bolton, which set the definition of maternal health to include not just life-threatening medical conditions, but also considerations such as emotional and familial health, exceptions that essentially demolish the restriction. Most late term abortions actually are performed for these reasons rather than for life-threatening conditions as most people believe. The paper you cite does nothing to contradict this. If they were being honest, don't you think they would have stated how the law defines "maternal health?"
They can't refer to maternal physical health specifically (as opposed to mental health) because abortion isn't even the best way to address maternal health issues that arise in the third trimester. C-sections are both quicker and carry lower risks. Both are invasive procedures.
As to fetal abnormalities, that argument is strife with danger because it veers awful close to eugenics. And they realize this.
Don't look:
"...over the last four years, 10 states have enacted abortion bans in early pregnancy without rape or incest exceptions: Alabama, Arkansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Oklahoma, Ohio, Tennessee and Texas...."
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-04-08/red-states-eliminate-rape-exceptions-from-abortion-bans
“You are valuable regardless of how you came into existence, or what your father did the night of your conception. (in this case raped and impregnated his 12 year old daughter)....” It so obviois Roe was based on piles of BS piled on more BS, and must be trashed but laws without exceptions that would prosecute a doctor, parent or bring a 12 year old rape AND incest victim, into the 'System', make my skin crawl no matter how 'rarely' it occurs.
Clearly, there were not enough fathers of underage teen girls serving in those legislatures.
Look:
They are doing it in retaliation for the central government's and court's usurping their state's rights, which the constitution affords
Joe Friday, eat a dick.
That's already a given.
None for me, thanks, but you go right ahead. Mother sounds like she wants some.
Say bye bye to Roe, bitch.
Then what is your problem here - if most late term abortions are medically necessary then the only effect will be to stop the ones that are not.
Even in medically necessary ones, the risk factors for delivery via induction or cesarian are equal or lower than for abortions at that late stage (risk factors for abortion complications go way up starting in the second trimester) and both the latter two actually take less time to correct a life threatening condition than an abortion. Most C-sections take under 30 minutes (most of that time is related to anesthesia which can be local or general, local is becoming more common, a spinal block) and inductions under 24 hours. Late term abortions require on average 48 hours (they have to dilate and soften the cervix enough to even begin, which is part of the induction process, so it's already built in). I was reading an article by one of the nations leading OB/GYNs (he teaches, practices and is a well respected researcher in his field) and he stated that after 24 weeks especially, that there is no medical reason to get an abortion that couldn't be more safely and quickly resolved by delivering the infant.
Well that's the problem. Per Doe v. Bolton, Roe's companion case, post viability abortions are not restricted to those that are "medically necessary," they are restricted to those that are necessary for preserving maternal health, which includes emotional and familial health. That's an exception that renders the restriction meaningless.
LOL. The latitude doctors have in creating 'medical necessity' is wider than the Grand Canyon. The States that have 'no exception laws' understand this and foolishly in my opinion, don't put any exceptions into the law.
What's this shit about "understanding" Roe v/s Wade?!? Fer chrissakes, "Roe v/s Wade" (just like the Cunts-tits-tuition itself) means WHATEVER THE SCROTUS SAYS THAT IT SAYS!!!
Peons need not apply! Just as you, as a juror, may NOT carry a copy of the Cunts-tits-tuition into the jury deliberation room!!! This is reserved for the HIGH PRIESTS, dammit, ye peons!!! STAY IN YOUR LANES, lowly, sub-slime ones!
"They think it means that the government cannot ban early term abortions but can ban late term abortions"
That's... because that's what the text of the ruling stated?
Are you trying to make some legal argument here, slippery slope type thing?
No it isn't read the damn article and it will tell you why you're wrong.
answered below.
And that depends on your definition of late term. Casey becomes applicable, by applying the viability test. But the article states that while the polls are conflicted, there is a large percentage who support abortion while also support restrictions to less than 24 weeks. Additionally, the last trimester being viability, is no longer the standard, as medical advancements have shown it isn't accurate (not to mention the inherent margin of error with common fetal aging methods and when they are conducted). So, nothing in his statement was inherently false. Roe and Casey may have set 24 weeks but many people don't seem to understand that, as shown by the polls the author cited, so his original statement is correct and your contradiction is incorrect.
You seem to be losing track of subthreads. And perhaps trying too hard.
People who roughly think Roe "means that the government cannot ban early term abortions but can ban late term abortions" are not wrong, since this is literally the text of Roe. That was the claim here.
Yes, this summary omits details and complications. You are welcome to highlight them. It's non sequitur in context.
We should be able to agree that *if* someone believing the above is wrong, it is an entirely different kind of wrong than we see with the serious mass delusions being pushed on large parts of the population by media. It's not conservatives-on-covid-and-vaccines levels of wrong – contributing to a quarter of a million unnecessary dead Americans – for example.
Your last paragraph is based on biased research with little supportive evidence, most of which is based upon speculative models and implies correlation is causation. The third trimester starts at 24 weeks, since the polls quoted in this very story demonstrates while people overwhelmingly don't support Roe being overturned but that a large percentage believe that abortion should be limited to a point earlier than 24 weeks, this belies any interpretation other than people don't understand Roe.
"speculative models and implies correlation is causation"
Lol. Unlike the hard causative evidence of VAERS, no doubt. You really think dramatic differences in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated outcomes is correlation/random? Can't make this stuff up.
Let's bookmark. It will be fun to have a deep dive on this one sometime.
You're now arguing a strawman trying to evaluate my position and knowledge based upon a false dichotomy you've created.
Lots of people think an end to Roe would make all abortion illegal nationwide. The Democrats were happy to let them believe this, and the Press has spent several decades not disabusing the public of this "disinformation" but rather reporting press releases of abortion special interests as straight news.
That's why you get respondents who support upholding Roe but think that there should be more restrictions on abortion.
The mundane journalism sources you may see as implacable cultural foes publish long articles on exactly what the legal status is and would be, state by state.
Suspect those who still include such sources as one input are better and more accurately informed on average than those gorging purely on outrage/conspiracy media, as threads here tend to continually underscore.
Bullshit. Read the damn article you're commenting on to see why both of your posts are incorrect.
Let's see, from what the 5th para
"Under Roe's framework, states were not allowed to regulate abortion based on "the potentiality of human life" until the third trimester, and even then they had to make exceptions for abortions deemed necessary to preserve "the life or health of the mother.""
Are you talking about the outrage of taking the mother's life into consideration, or wtf are you on about?
See my responses on the risk of abortion vs delivering the fetus in the third trimester.
Also, as the article points out, the polling suggests that the media has not done a very good job of explaining Roe, unlike what you stated above. But that takes a little bit of critical thinking.
I don't see these responses. Maybe you mean the comment on uncertainty in dating.
Anyway, sounds like it's not that my comment is "bullshit", but rather as noted you deeply disagree with the stipulation that Roe restricted government from forcing individuals to risk their lives to complete a pregnancy, and wanted to express that. Roger.
"as the article points out, the polling suggests that the media has not done a very good job of explaining Roe, unlike what you stated above."
Ah. The comment was "respondents" saying that abolishing Roe "would make all abortion illegal nationwide". Such things as NYT articles on state-by-state legality do not make this claim, at all. Feel free to cite an example to support your claim.
This is just an error in reasoning. When you equate "what some random respondent thinks" with "journalists represented the facts wrong", you make a host of logical assumptions that you may not be thinking of. For example, you are assuming that the respondent in question has read the depth articles from (say) a news reporting outlet like the NYT and that this is the source of their misunderstanding. It probably isn't, given that (again) the articles don't say this.
"But that takes a little bit of critical thinking"
Yes. Apologies if I ran ahead on that a little bit anywhere.
No, the polling that shows that a large percentage support keeping roe but also support restrictions on abortions prior to the third trimester. Keep trying. The article provides all the data. And I have several replies, I didn't say my replies to you, but generalized all my replies. Nice try.
And since most people get the understanding and knowledge from journalists this further argues that journalists haven't done an adequate job of explaining the decision.
And how does the law define "health of the mother." Look to Doe v. Bolton, Roe v. Wade's companion case, for the answer. The short of it is that maternal health is defined way more broadly than you suggest here, so much so that the restriction is meaningless.
In reality, Roe means that the government can do virtually
nothing to limit even the latest term and most gruesome abortions nor even regulate the butchers who provide such services.anything a certain 5 persons can create a rationale for.Roe v Wade gave Women the inalienable right to their body/healthcare pre-viability and left State's to decide from then on.
I guess the original comment was upset that the Union of States Government didn't give late-term pregnancies inalienable rights to be born but the State can. Which is funny; that's how Roe v Wade ended up on the Union of States governments table. Texas banned abortion and Roe filed the law UN-Constitutional for violating body autonomy...
"The" Comstock government used a postal cartel to sentence women to ten year on a chain gang for explaining the rhythm method in writing. The LP's 1972 platform broke that by stopping partly-reconstructed mystical fascist State "governments" from threatening women's doctors at gunpoint. Men, like whites before Brown v. Board, were special and uncoerced. After the Christian National Socialist court proves our point, the real LP can revive our Roe plank and again increase at 12% a year.
After some years of considering this, and being generally pro-abortion rights, I have struggled (in these recent years) to understand what the limits to abortion might be. It's a discussion few people want to have. It's a discussion even fewer people on the left want to have because there's an almost knee-jerk reaction that any prescribed limit to abortion threatens the underpinnings of Roe which, inside the decision itself explicitly states that a woman's right to abortion is "not unlimited".
I have also come to the slow conclusion that Roe probably should be overturned because it was... let's face it... a highly activist decision that was based on extremely shaky constitutional reasoning.
As one person said, "If you support abortion, you should support overturning Roe".
The other thing the left never wants to talk about is the number of women abortion leaves infertile and or emotionally scared for life. They claim to want abortions to be safe but then have used Roe to block any sort of regulation of abortion providers or any public concern for the safety of women getting abortion. The Kermit Goslin case should have been a national scandal that caused governments to examine the practices of every abortion provider in the country. Instead it went down the memory hole because abortion can only be spoken of in terms of a limitless right with no downsides.
"the number of women abortion leaves infertile"
The infertility claim is hyperbole. If you want to learn about the various abprtion procedures and their rusks, this is an excellent article that serves as an excellent primer: https://modernfertility.com/blog/do-abortions-affect-fertility/
"have used Roe to block any sort of regulation of abortion providers"
Medical facilities of all kinds are highly regulated. Abortion clinics are some of the most regulated medical facilities. And Roe doesn't prevent regulation of abortion clininlcs.
"The Kermit Goslin case should have been a national scandal that caused governments to examine the practices of every abortion provider in the country."
First, his name is Kermit Gosnell. And he was a criminal (technically a serial killer, having killed at least three infants born alive). Do you think that if a neurosurgeon intentionally kills a patient that all neurosurgery centers in the country should be investigated? Or if a cardiothoracic surgeon kills a patirnt that all heart centers should be examined? Or is possible that this is your bias talking?
"abortion can only be spoken of in terms of a limitless right with no downsides."
Reasonable people don't argue in absolutes. Neither the "abortion should be completely outlawed" nor the "abortion should be legal up until live birth" position is reasonable. They are extremes, embraced by tiny minorities (historically around 15% for the former and 9% for the latter).
No reasonable person would argue that there are no downsides to abortion. Pro-choice advocates certainly don't make that claim. Abortion is a difficult decision to make and those who advocate for legal abortion know better than most how hard it is.
Most people live in the middle, with different beliefs about when life begins and what should be legal. Generalizing all pro-choice people as pro-abortion or all pro-life people as believing life begins at conception is dishonest framing.
There are plenty of pro-choice people who would never get an abortion, but don't think that that choice should be taken away from someone else. There are plenty of pro-life people who believe that life begins at the first "heartbeat" (misleading, since there isn't a heart for another 4 weeks or so, but it is one threshold) or when the fetus has all of its organs or the first brain activity or some other benchmark.
Excellent post Nelson, but it hsould be noted that "late term abortions" are largely medical emergencies or cases where the infant will be born with a terrible condition it will not survive, might suffer during it's brief life, and probably leave the family both broke and traumatized. Of course they will be traumatized by aborting but not to the extent of overseeing their suffering infant with no future on it's path to no life. Who thinks a woman takes a pregnancy to 8 months or so and then willy nilly decides to abort?
Your Marxist death cult celebrates infanticide. So nothing is too loathsome for your kind.
You accused me of Marxism, being part of a death cult, and killing babies. I have to admit, it's pretty impressive to write a six word sentence and have four of them be wrong. 33% accuracy is low, even for an anti-abortionist.
I think that based upon you multiple scientific mistakes you've made on this subject, that it's arguably 66%. This is further reinforced by the multiple examples of confirmation bias on your part that even the article you are commenting on (and I've pointed out) contradict, that the second one of the three he listed is arguably applicable as well. Additionally, your reference and misrepesentation of pro-lifers makes a strong case for this being applicable to you.
Which medical mistakes have I made? My position on medical care is that it should be the decision of the doctor and the patient.
You, on the other hand, have nade broad generalizations about late term abortions and safety which may or may not be relevant to a specific case, but that apparently justify bans on exceptions for the mother's health.
Or it may just be rank paternalism. Either way, I'm not the one playong doctor.
I have always advocated for a doctor and a patient making treatment decisions without either you or the state involved. I know it's crazy, but that's a position that supports liberty. Yours is not.
"...but it should be noted that 'late term abortions' are largely medical emergencies or cases where the infant will be born with a terrible condition it will not survive, might suffer during its brief life, and probably leave the family both broke and traumatized."
No they aren't. Most are performed to preserve "maternal health," which per Doe v. Bolton includes much more than medical necessity, and those that most people would reasonably consider to be for "medical necessity" are the minority of such abortions performed.
Excellent. Anything to get around the theocratic totalitarians in the anti-abortion movement. Those liberty-haters need to take a big step back.
Gosnell's horrors occurred because abortion providers - regardless of the de jure regulations - are not scrutinized in the same way as other medical providers. Cardiothoracic surgeons don't have an immense media and lobbying organization sacralizing their work while attacking their critics and funding their political opposition. They don't own one of the two major political parties lock, stock, and barrel. Cardiothoracic surgery is not mentioned in the platforms of both major political parties. It's a pretend world where abortion isn't treated differently because of its political dimensions. There is no "Roe v. Wade purporting to establish a constitutional right to cardiothoracic surgery.
Further, Gosnell didn't kill his patients so your analogy doesn't hold (although some of his patients required substantial emergency lifesaving medicine after his work). Gosnell killed people (albeit small people without names) whom his patients wanted to be killed, and sought him out to do it.
It was only a matter of time till Michael Griffin, Paul Hill, Scott Roeder, Shelley Shannon, John Salvi, Eric Rudolph, Robert Dear and the rest of the Army of God got uninspected entry sockpuppet accounts at Reason. The Republican credo is clear: deliberately killing individual doctors is pro-life salvation, while forcing harmless women into involuntary servitude is NOT slavery. After all, Christian National Socialists resisted commie atheists with the involuntary help of Jews, Polacks and others who could not bear arms or resist. The Nuremberg court recognized that as slavery.
That's an impressive list of Christian terrorists and assassins. And a sad commentary on how "thou shalt not kill" is interpreted by zealots.
Except national socialist weren't Christian, several of them were atheists and or occultists and Hitler wanted to replace the worship of God with worship of the church after the war. So, it's a diatribe not based on historical fact. Hitler and other Nazis did play up the Christian angle, especially protestant Christianity, because they realized that bashing Christianity in 1930s Germany would have been a bad way to achieve power. But if you reviewed their internal writings, it's clear that the plan was to eliminate Christianity after they had successfully consolidated their power. Hitler made this very clear in his personal writings.
I notice you didn't acknowledge the list of Christian terrorists and assassins. Hell, Eric Roudolph bombed the Olympics in Atlanta to protest abortion.
Apparently Christian zealots believe if you are righteous enough, you aren't restricted by irrelevant things like the Ten Commandments.
Neither the "abortion should be completely outlawed" nor the "abortion should be legal up until live birth" position is reasonable.
You are looking at this wrong.
Read it like this--
Neither the "murder should be completely outlawed" nor the "murder should be legal up until live birth" position is reasonable.
Suddenly it's not 'extremes' It's the mainstream view on one side and something very wrong on the other.
And every pro-choice person knows this, which is why there is an endless scramble to name what is being aborted.
Yes, you are part of the small minority that thinks that life begins at conception and that any abortion is murder. Just like there are a small minority (fewer, but there) who think that no abortion is beyond the pale.
A pox on both your houses, from the 75% of us that are trapped between you.
Stop trying to present yourself as reasonable, or mainstream. You are not. You are part of the Marxist death cult that worships institutional imfanticide.
I am probably on the largest cohort on abortion: supportive of abortion rights up until the brain achieves the ability to keep the fetus alive, supportive of restrictions to after that.
I could even see setting the threshold at the earliest point a fetus has ever survived on its own (which I believe is 20 weeks).
But anything earlier doesn't make sense to me. And to most Americans. Almost no one buys into the "life begins at conception" belief.
So I'm definitely more reasonabke than the various cultural conservatives in these comments. And a whole lot more reasonable than you.
Here is another thing to consider, aging the fetus after 16 weeks can be off by a factor of 4 weeks either direction, even with ultrasound, because the correlation between size and fetal age is not strong after the first trimester. Fetal development varies considerably. A large percentage of patients don't get their first ultrasound until around that time (prenatal care is a whole nother discussion). So, if you got your first ultrasound at 17 weeks, your date could be off by as much as a month. Factoring that in, to be safe, twenty weeks would have to be 16 weeks unless the first ultrasound was prior to the end of the first trimester. Ultrasounds are far better predictors of fetal age than dates of menstrual periods (some women continue to have pseudo periods through the first and sometimes even into their second trimester while other women have such irregular cycles that using date of last period is almost useless). Pregnancy tests are also not reliable. My wife took a pregnancy test one day, and it was negative, she took one a day later and it was positive, and both were after 7 days that the test stated was required. As basing it on date of ultrasound (and the fact that even fetal age is usually based upon an estimation based on the unreliable date of last period) to be on the safe side, 15 or 16 weeks is perfectly logical if we are going to use age of viability, as this allows for misaging of the fetus.
"aging the fetus after 16 weeks can be off by a factor of 4 weeks either direction"
Unless the patient has no idea when her last period was and can't count days on a calendar, it will never be off by 4 weeks.
I really hope you aren't actually a medic. The things you are willing to believe about medicine are insane. You actually said "the unreliable date of last period". If by "unreliable" you mean "off by a day or two", that's an insignificant difference. If by "unreliable" you mean "off by a month", you're delusional. Or a credulous fool. Or both.
And according to the polls that isn't the largest cohort. As the polling is all over the place (one poll showing a plurality for banning after 15 or 16 weeks others showing a plurality that are against that while a still strong percentage agree with that limit). So, you're fooling yourself or suffering from confirmation bias.
I count on multiple polls, all with quality reputations, and preferably polling for decades (Pew, Gallup, Quinnipiac, Marist, etc.). You obviously count on polls like Rasmussen.
If you count on multiple, reputable polls you will find that most people support legal abortion and the two smallest cohorts are unrestricted abortion (~9%) and complete ban (~15%). The largest group, historically, has been pro-choice through roughly 22 weeks (some use weeks, some use trimesters, so it's impossible to target a single shared date) with restrictions after that point. Most of these results are consistemt across decades.
I try to minimize the possibility of confirmation bias in my research. I believe that eliminating it entirely is virtually impossible, but if you count on organizations with high-quality methodology, reputation, and transparency you are most likely to get good information.
If you want a great guide to reputable polling organizations, check out https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/
"I could even see setting the threshold at the earliest point a fetus has ever survived on its own (which I believe is 20 weeks)."
Abortion activists refused those limits for years.
So, fuck them. Pro-life was WILLING to work with you and was turned down. So, we pursued our goals.
The extremists in the pro-choice movement (less than 10%) reject any compromise, just like the extremists in the pro-life movement (roughly 15%).
Most people do not. Most people are honestly thinking about what is right. And most people fall in between the two, with a skew towards pro-choice.
And please don't insult everyone's intelligence by trying to claim that anti-abortionists are reasonable and willing to compromise and pro-choice extremists are not. They are both berserkers fighting the culture wars and are holding the 75% of us who have more nuanced beliefs hostage to their scorched-earth bullshit.
I haven't seen the polling that suggests only a minority of people believe life begins at conception. Even many of those who support abortion until some point before the third trimester will tell you life begins at conception but that doesn't mean abortions should be completely illegal. Most of us in this boat will tell you it's complicated because you have competing rights. The furthest left arguing for unrestricted abortions up to and including the head entering the birth canal are the ones who argue that life doesn't begin at conception and then try to "prove" it doesn't by "science". By almost any measure of biology the idea that life begins at conception isn't even controversial. Yes miscarriages and failure to implant happen frequently but that doesn't negate life beginning at conception.
Are you using "life" in the biological sense, separate and distinct from "life" as an organism with legal rights? Because those are separate and unconnected things.
When I say "life" I mean the second meaning, not the first. Anti-abortionists see the two as identical, which is ridiculous. Pro-life and pro-choice people see them as separate, but how close they believe the two things are influences how they describe themselves. 6 weeks or 15 weeks? Pro-life. 20 or 26 weeks? Pro-choice. The concepts remain the same, it's just a matter of perspective.
But there aren't competing rights. A fetus has no legal rights and the biological definition of "life" conveys no rights on the zygote.
If you want me to agree that, biologically, life begins at conception, that is a no-brainer. You are 100% right.
If you want me to agree that life begins at conception, legally and morally, I will vehemently disagree. Because biology (or DNA, or the potential for birth, or whatever dishonest standard anti-abortionists put forth) doesn't mean anything more than biology.
That's the real dispute, right? A small group thinks that biological life and moral/legal life are all the same thing. An even smaller group think that moral/legal life doesn't begin until live birth (which, legally, is the definition in the US Code). Most people feel that neither sounds reasonable, but come to different beliefs about where their moral line is.
And since one of my core beliefs is that the government has no business imposing moral values through legislation, I oppose abortion bans.
Luckily this leaked opinion would return that choice to you. Where it belongs.
No, it would return it to the states. It would remove it from the individual. That's moving in the wrong direction.
And I guarantee that the states won't allow localities or individuals to have different standards. So it's really about whther you support the individual making their own moral decisions. And anti-abortionists do not like individual rights.
You democrats covered for Gosnell for over a decade because there must be no criticism of abortion. All your other claims are distortions or outright bulkshit. Which isn’t new for you. You’re a lying piece of shit that is consistently discredited.
You might not get to kill any more babies, but you’re free to abort yourself. So do it.
That's why there was a push a couple years ago by pro-abortion advocates to have women celebrate their abortions? Because they realize it's a tough decision? Several of your posts suggest you ignore information that runs contrary to your position while accusing those who you disagree with of suffering from this form of confirmation bias.
The biggest flaw in Roe is that the court tied themselves into incomprehensible knots of flawed logic in order to find room for this ONE medical right but no others.
They could not risk tearing down the drug war, the medical licensing racket, and the FDA.
That is a good point. We all have this absolute right to control our bodies but only if it comes to getting an abortion. When it comes to using illegal drugs, an unapproved medical treatment, or going to an unlicensed doctor, that is different for reasons that remain a mystery to everyone but the court. It is a bit like how the court in Ogberfel decided that everyone has a right to government recognition of their relationship with the ONE they love but not the TWO they love because that is icky or something.
Or maybe they realized that the sexes of married partners are a completely different subject from the number of partners in a marriage.
Wait so now we're not for "Marry who you love" anymore? So confusing.
Today's "facts" are dependent on the narrative, not the narrative is dependent on the facts.
To the current court members who seem poised to sign onto this leaked decision, the reason abortion is different from other medical issues is that it involves the moral question of the taking of a potential life or unborn human being. Why does that make a difference? It doesn’t say. I can think of a few reasons, but this decision is silent.
It’s a tenth amendment issue.
That isn't what they ruled. Like Vamp stated, the torture of the 14A to justify abortion in Roe, was wrong. The ruling reverts it back to the 10A. If the justices had in 1973 ruled under the 9A, it's possible that Roe would have stood (but as others have stated this would negate a bunch of other laws, rules, and regulations regarding bodily autonomy).
Don't forget choosing to forgo a vaccine if you work for the government.
To be fair, in no other medical case are two distinct humans so literally entwined. The debate is at what point there are two humans involved and the extent to which there is an obligation of one to the other.
Consider a mother who gives birth - and then leaves the baby somewhere to die. Was she obviously obligated to nurture the child? When did she become obligated, if ever?
Consider that case of a dozen fetal cells that are dividing and growing. If an induced or natural menstrual cycle washes them out of the uterus, and they would only be visible under a microscope assuming anyone even knew to look for them, was there a human life extinguished?
I've seen different answers to these questions the few times anyone has bothered to respond to them. I've yet to see any answers that were built on consistently applied principles that didn't also yield uncomfortable answers.
My personal belief is that the difficulty and discomfort that these questions cause is why some are so married to one extreme or the other. It's a lot easier to reduce things to a single "truth" (life or choice) than actually examine your beliefs and face the cognitive dissonance that serious examination would cause.
The choices are to send men with guns to coerce women and doctors, or NOT to send men with guns to coerce women and doctors. Maybe the next world war will thin out the fascisti to the point that democratic freedom becomes viable. Nixon campaign subsidies force citizens to subsidize two looter parties whose enemy is integrity. So we have to beat back the catchers from chasing women leaping from ice-floe to ice-floe across state lines so as to decide for themselves, while slave-catchers count the weeks.
Did you read the article? Because it states even most pro-life don't reduce it only to those dichotomies, that even most pro-lifers support abortions with stronger regulations and or limits to the first trimester, which is actually what the vast majority of Europe already does, the US and Canada are actually outliers on how late we allow abortions).
I will note that while you try to act like you are reasonable that you have made several scientifically and medically incorrect statements, that you've used sophomoric examples (like comparing restrictions on abortion to slavery) and that you've misrepresented what the polling data suggests about people's beliefs on abortion and abortion regulations. From your posts it is pretty obvious you suffer from confirmation bias, and therefore it is only logical to conclude that you claiming to be reasonable is suspect. You also have demonized the pro-life and misrepresented what many actually believe.
For example, as my biology 200 professor and my reproductive physiology 400 and 500 level professors stated "many may find this statement controversial, but biologically speaking life begins at conception, it isn't even debated by most scientists" (and the latter two were devout pro-choice and the former was lukewarm pro-choice). My rather progressive anatomy and physiology professor (a MD with a dual PhD in biology) stated almost the same thing, as did the PhD professor who taught my 400 level developmental biology. That's four PhDs (one who also had an MD) who all agreed that biologically speaking life begins at conception. And none of them were rabid pro-lifers.
"you have made several scientifically and medically incorrect statements"
Not at all. Would you like to provide some examples? Because I don't get into the minutiae of medicine. I leave that to doctors. Or, if I'm talkkng about fetal development, I rely on reputable sources and concepts that multiple sources supprt. You, on the other hand, think that a woman can be off on the start of her own pregnancy by a month. Who's the one with confirmation bias?
"you've used sophomoric examples (like comparing restrictions on abortion to slavery)"
Never. Not once. I don't play those 'appeal to emotion' games. That's the anti-abortionists game.
"you've misrepresented what the polling data suggests about people's beliefs on abortion and abortion regulations."
Absolutely not. I not only have my facts straight, I use multiple reputable polls to arrive at them. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly mischaracterized polling on the issue.
"You also have demonized the pro-life "
No, I strongly criticize anti-abortionists. They don't represent the majority pro-life position. Pro-life advocates are people who accept that there is a point before which abortion should be legal, although they fall on the side of strong restrictions. They are reasonable people, even though I disagree with them.
"biologically speaking life begins at conception, it isn't even debated by most scientists"
I have both said something similar myself and agreed with posts that have said that (at least one of them was yours). But that isn't what anti-abortionists mean by "life", is it? They mean a human being with rights. And that absolutely doesn't happen at conception and there is no reasonable argument for it. Human DNA isn't the same as an actual human, caoable of exusting outside the womb.
I don't know if you have mistaken someone else's posts for mine or if you haven't followed the consistent, nuanced, and moderate positions I have expressed on abortion. I don't believe that a fetus isn't a life (meaning a person with rights, an organism capable of survival outside the womb, a viable fetus, or whatever phrase you wish to use) until live birth. While that is what the US Code says, I don't find that any more compelling than the anti-abortion position. I believe that there is a point in the development of the fetus, well after conception and a good amount short of birth, where life (or personhood, or whatever phrase you want to use) begins.
I support restrictions on abortions in the third trimester. I see a reasonable compromise position (ignoring the whackjobs on both fringes) at somewhere between 20 and 26 weeks. I just don't have any faith that it will happen with the braying jackasses from the extremes sucking up the oxygen and vilifying anyone who isn't an absolutist.
I actually have enjoyed having this discussion with you. When you aren't trying to paint me as someone I'm not, you seem to be someone whose heart is with the anti-abortionists, but whose head is with the pro-lifers. I can respect and appreciate that, even if I don't agree.
Does there really need to be a debate on why you can’t throw a baby into a garbage can and leave he or she to die?
I never thought about it that way, but there could be implications for things like the War on Drugs or medical licensing. I'm not a lawyer so I couldn't tell you how reasonable the argument is, but it definitely made me think.
It has not escaped the justices. Alito actually briefly considers in the draft that the right to abortion could be part of some right to bodily autonomy... and then rejects it as part of a parade of horribles because then we would have to allow drug use and prostitution and assisted suicide to be consistent. Can't have THAT, so "bodily autonomy": out as a possible right.
He could have left that alone, conceded it might exist as a right but that in this situation there are two people or at least one person and a strong contender for a second person with claims to the right to bodily integrity... but, no, instead we'll have written in an official SCOTUS decision that we definitely don't have a right to bodily autonomy because drugs and hookers and Jack Kevorkian.
Don't get me wrong, in all while I don't exactly love the result, I think the draft-- even as it stands, without modification-- properly tears down Roe and Casey. They were very poorly decided and deserved to be overturned.
But that part of the decision wrankled a lot, and wasn't necessary for the point he was trying to make, and I suspect it will come back to haunt us eventually. My days as a suitable hooker are long over, alas, and I was never into drugs, but I'm getting on enough in years that the other might raise its ugly head someday and while I don't think I'd ever take advantage of the option it'd be nice to know I could do so without the Disincorporation Governance Board getting the deciding vote on the matter.
In America you have a right to medical treatment of all and virtually every sort.
Except Ivermectin.
Or a wide variety of other medical procedures, donating a kidney to a non-family member or ... many others. |Come-on Joe, think.
What about vaccinations? Joe was arguing that forced vaccinations didn't violate any rights.
Scent if you’re a baby, right?
That right would certainly lower medical costs as the entire health care system could then be conscripted to work at your pleasure.
You might want to spend some time contemplating what a right is.
You only have a right to what you can obtain through your own resourcefulness without using force.
"It's a discussion few people want to have."
I'd love to have a substantive, nuanced discussion about abortion. What people believe, why they believe it, what they believe is too far, what is reasonable, etc.
If we can avoid the baby killer stuff and not have people shouted down by the anti-abortionists for expressing an opinion other than "life begins at conception", I think it would be a great.
If you want to start a discussion tomorrow on the Thursday Open Thread asking for a civil discourse, I'd engage with you. Sound good?
It’s people like you doing the shouting. Already, your kind have resorted to violence.
You keep coming back to the life begins at conception, which is actually a fairly wide spread belief, and consistent with biological and medical science. Even a lot of pro-choice will admit that. They still believe that abortion should be legal, because it's the mother's body. They will use terms like slavery (see above) or parasite (by biological definition the fetus/infant is closer to a symbiont than a parasite), which admits, especially the latter, that the fetus is alive. In fact, someone yesterday tried to compare abortion to evictions and the fetus as an unwanted guest. This indicates that the living argument isn't even debated, except by a small minority.
If not conception, when does life begin? What process going on in the womb suddenly transfers life? Science certainly cannot name that.
I used to be pro-choice, then I had kids and realized what life meant and how early it began. Laying in bed with your wife and knowing you have a new child is the closest to a spiritual moment I've had.
Now, I'm pro-choice on closing your legs, using prophylactics and pre-emptive spay and neuter, rather than murdering a child to make your life more convenient.
Incest, rape, irreversible and potentially fatal deformations... there is room to talk, but those cases are less than 4% of all abortions. The overwhelming majority kill their babies for convenience, and that is evil.
Fine that you and your wife made that decision Salted and my wife would never have an abortion either. But that's her decision in her circumstances and yours in yours, and should remain so, not become the governor's choice.
As to carve outs for rape and incest, most of the states tightening abortion laws don't have them, speaking of evil.
Except when you murder someone, the government tends to get involved.
Preventing people from killing other people is not evil.
If a rape victim carries an infant to term (which the vast majority of those impregnated by rape actually choose to do) using the rape argument, the argument could be made that murdering the infant after birth would be allowable as well.
‘Rape and incest’ are extreme outliers. Stop with your hackneyed bullshit rhetoric.
Actually, the marital privacy reasoning behind it has also been used to overturn many laws in the Supreme Court for 200 years or so.
- It may not make much sense to non-lawyers, but the Roe-v-Wade had lots of supporting precident.
Whenever an appeals court says "not unlimited", they mean "unlimited".
I don't think people are particularly stupid, but the last thing I want to see is a poll on what the courts should do. People respond based on policy preferences and couldn't likely explain the legal implications if their aborted baby depended on it.
That's probably true for 99% of the cases people know about.
Look at Masterpiece Cakeshop. A lot of people believe that it was a decison about baking a cake for a gay wedding and that it upheld the baker's right to refuse to bake a gay wedding cake. But it was actually (in my layman's understanding) a decision that found religious animus towards the baker by the Colorado Civil Rights Commission. It said nothing about whether tbe baker cluld refuse to bake a gay wedding cake.
I'm sure that the gap between what people think a decision means and what it actually says is surprisingly wide.
Miller is an even better example. It didn't uphold the 1938 gun control act. It remanded the case back to the lower courts and found that the lower courts were wrong in their determination that a sawed off shotgun wasn't useful for militia use (as sawed off shotguns were used frequently by the US military during WW1). Miller, the defendant died before the case could be reheard and so it was never decided. Actually, using the courts reasoning in remanding Miller back to the lower courts automatic weapons should also be legal, as they are but it takes a lot of jumping through hoops and is costly to do so, additionally the post 1986 production ban is likely illegal under the Miller decision. You still read articles stating that Miller was overturned by Heller, but that isn't close to the case. Heller actually answered the question that the court never even ruled on in Miller.
Roughly 95% of the counted votes say the looter Kleptocracy is preferable to a system that minimizes the initiation of deadly force. What word other than stupid accurately describes that?
"Roe v. Wade was an ill-judged decision when it was handed down." But he argues that overturning it half a century later would be "a radical, not conservative, choice" because of the longstanding expectations it would upset.
So was overturning slavery...
Careful with that argumentation.
Reliance interests are the basis for the entire principle of stare decisis. It's an important part of our judicial history and doctrine and yes, it serves a useful purpose. It is not (and should not be) the deciding factor but it can and should be a factor.
That said, deciding that reliance interests are outweighed by other factors is not particularly radical even if those reliances have been around for several decades.
Sure it was a wrongly decided decision that results in the ongoing murder of millions of children. That doesn't mean we can change it. What is done is done. We wouldn't want to do anything radical.
What a cowardly and stupid argument. Why doesn't he just say "sure it is wrong but I like the result and don't want it to change". That would at least be an honest answer, which is a lot better than what he gives.
There is no "ongoing murder of millions of children".
It's called abortion, Shrike.
Yeah, there is, and you’re advocating for the deaths of millions more.
The idea that life begins at conception isn't even really debated in medical or biological fields (I have degrees in both). That's why the pro-choice crowd likes to use terms like parasite or call it a fetus and attack you if you use the word baby or infant (they are all basically synonyms, even scientifically and medically). Redefining words are the forte of the hard left. And usually when they try to redefine words it's a good bet it's to make something unpalatable more palatable to the masses.
Thought experiment: What if a judge handed down an opinion that said who wins and, "Fuck you, that's why." Would it not stand just as much as a 100-page tome?
Nice.
But he argues that overturning it half a century later would be "a radical, not conservative, choice" because of the longstanding expectations it would upset.
Like letting chicks vote?
I’m shocked that has never been overturned based on the doctrine of ‘bitches be crazy’.
Speaking of which, I really enjoyed Liz Warren’s meltdown the other day.
The actual argument pre Civil War was that it would be an offense against property rights to make human property illegal after it had been legal for so long.
The idea that government, and the judiciary explicitly, should not correct its errors because the error has enjoyed a long period of existence is a contemptible argument.
Is it really? If a great many people have oriented their lives, investments, and expectations around it, isn't that a good argument? What's the purpose of law, if not arranging things so we can get along?
What happens if someone in the slave business is told, "What you and your forebears have been doing since time immemorial is now illegal, and you're up on charges of kidnapping.?" Or, "We have decreed that meat is murder, so you as a butcher are now up on murder charges."? Or, "We have determined that the property that's been in your family for generations actually belongs to someone else, clear out now."? Or, "Your marriage was improperly annulled 30 years ago, you're still legally hitched."?
Even in basketball, there's something called an uncorrectable error. If the mistake is discovered after the ball has become alive and then dead again, it stands.
“Is it really? If a great many people have oriented their lives, investments, and expectations around it, isn't that a good argument? What's the purpose of law, if not arranging things so we can get along?”
Now do slavery.
Plethy and Brown are better examples.
Plethy was decided in 1896, Brown was decided in 1954. Brown overturned Plethy, so it appears half a century isn't a detriment to overturning bad court rulings. In fact, the same argument about time could equally have been applied (and was) in Brown. That even if Plethy was wrong, that the laws had existed for so long that overturning them would be disruptive to society. That argument seems completely debunked by Brown (and other civil rights rulings).
Slavery was never judicially overturned.
"So was overturning slavery..."
Slavery was overturned by executive action and then a Constitutional Amendment. So nothing like abortion.
Plus slavery steadily lost moral support, until slavery was almost universally viewed as abhorrent. Abortion has not lost moral support. Legal abortion has consistently been the preferred policy of the vast majority of Americans and nothing the anti-abprtion zealots have done over the last 50 years has changed that.
Anti-abortionists seem incapable of figuring out that the slavery trope works against their position, not for it. It's kinda sad.
No it doesn't. You have to argue that a normal biological function, that you evolved to be capable of doing,is akin to slavery. It's a false analogy. Induced abortion is not a natural, evolved trait, even though it's probably existed for millennia. The comparison of abortion and slavery is sophistry at it's finest.
I didn't compare abortion to slavery. I was pushing back against someone who made that analogy. It's one of the stupidest of the 'appeal to emotion' arguments anti-abortionists make. And that means it's astonishingly stupid.
If that's the case, any biological function is slavery. Having a period is slavery. Spermatogenesis is slavery. Breathing is slavery. It's a sophomoric argument (sophistry and sophomore have the same root words for a reason).
This makes 9 articles for abortion
And still 2.5 about bidens fucking thought police ministry of truth.
Seriously reason writers kill yourselves and let libritarian take over.
Free speech isn't an important Teen Reason issue, but babykilling sure as fuck is.
Abortion isn't baby killing.
The hell it's not.
Or are you going to tell us again about how the magical birth canal fairy turns you into a real human as you pass through her sacred hallway?
No, the ability of a fetus to sustain it's own survival is what makes a human. If you can't exist without a womb, you aren't a person yet.
Fetus and baby or infant are synonyms, even scientifically speaking. Making this argument is unscientific sophistry.
And it should be noted that no text book prior to Roe didn't use the words interchangeably. That the attempt to redefine them as different meanings only came about well after Roe and mainly by pro-abortion activists.
It's like the parasite argument. From a scientific standpoint fetuses are not parasites, they don't meet the criteria, but are closer to the definition of a symbiot. But scientifically speaking neither term is used because fetuses aren't either parasite or symbiote.
If the ability to "sustain it's own survival is what makes a human," then I'm afraid none of us were humans until at least after we were weaned, and it's arguably not until well into adolescence when we could truly survive independently.
You're laying out a rather specious framework for defining a "human."
Yeah, anti-abortionusts constantly pretend that independent or survive or whatever other word is used to say "self-sustaining organism" means much, much more than than it does.
I'll.keep it simple. If the fetus is outside of the womb, can it just sit there and continue to exist? A baby can, they do it all the time. Before viability, a fetus cannot.
This argument is the probably the most dishonest, intentional "misunderstanding" of what is being said.
Yes it is you ghoulish, soulless cunt.
I wonder how much money Koch is giving Reason? And are any left wing groups funneling significant sums of money to them?
Remember when Trump wanting to make libel easier to prove and insulting the White House Corps the numerous breathless posts by Reason's staff that claimed these were unconscionable attacks on free speech and press and a harbinger of imminent dictatorship?
Strange that the announcement of a Disinformation Governance Board does not illicit the same level of panic.
It’s not important as no mean tweets were involved.
They are the Pravda version of libertarian
Meanwhile, a senile, bitter old man with an increasingly loose grasp on reality remains in charge of the world's most powerful nation and with his liver spotted finger firmly pressed on the nuclear button.
Biden tells to Paralympic basketball players not to jump while taking pictures
At the start of his remarks, [Biden] pointed out several state lawmakers in the audience for praise. When he got to Chuck Graham, a state senator from Green Meadows, Biden urged the lawmaker to “stand up Chuck, let ’em see ya.”
But Graham, who is in a wheelchair, can’t stand up – a fact Biden quickly picked up on.
“God love ya, what am I talking about,” Biden said. “You can tell I’m new,” he quipped, asking the audience to stand up for Graham instead.
https://redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2022/05/04/joe-biden-embarrasses-himself-in-cringe-moment-during-event-honoring-paralympic-athletes-n559866
Does anyone see a resemblance between Mr. Burns and Joe Biden?
Physically? yes. Mentally, no. Burns was of sharp mind and capable of running a vast business empire.
Salon article: Diane Reynolds Praises Monty Burns in CPAC speech!
So, you WERE shouting boo-urns!
How KEWT! A Don-slobbering Trumpista Trilby here tells the pagans that the Orange Christian National Socialist is Salvation, why? Because there are only two choices that let tax-subsidized Kleptocracy politicians defeat voters, and the incumbent prohibitionist geezer who does NOT want thugs to threaten women at gunpoint is THE alternative. Libertarian voters seek neither to bully girls nor worship Fuhrers. Geezer Don's party lost precisely because it listened to girl-bullying prohibitionists with Greene teeth. Bye.
So how come you’re a leftist, and not a libertarian?
Abortion is just the worst issue there is.
Everyone on all sides has a void point. Everyone is fucking hysterical about it.
Everyone actually agrees on the high level . Very early abortion is probably not much of a moral issue and very late abortion is clearly immoral. The definition of 'very early and very late' is basically the whole argument and there''s no good clearcut answer either.
It is a lousy issue. It exactly the sort of issue that we have elected governments to solve. The democratic process never gives an ideal answer. With an issue like abortion, that is okay since there is no ideal answer. What the democratic process does, however, is come up with an answer most of both sides can live with. It should have always been left to the democratic process instead of in the hands of judicial degree.
Progressives have spent most of 2022 demanding "our democracy needs to be protected" and "compromise is essential." Suddenly, those seem to have gone out the window - they would be fine with five judges in Washington deciding to impose their will on everyone else.
We have five judges in Washington deciding to impose their will on everyone else. That's why the biggest protection of personal medical decision-making and bodily autonomy is about to be overturned.
Their will being that it is not the place of SCOTUS to impose a policy on abortion for the entire country.
No longer imposing their will on is is imposing their will on is because their will is to no longer impose their will.
Got it.
You really cry like a little bitch when you don’t get your way. Your tears really are icing on the cake.
A good portion of the country agree to some degree with their decision, so they aren't imposing it on everyone. As to their bodies argument you are ignoring half the bodies involved. And they didn't decide they stated that since it isn't listed in the constitution, under the 10A it is the purview of the states. The best argument against this is the 9A, not the 14A or precedents, but this still doesn't resolve the fact that it's not just one body involved.
But it is. A fetus isn't a person, no matter how many times or how loudly you shout it. It's literally not true legally or morally.
Define what is a human? Because any definition other than genetically are not scientifically sound. By that definition a zygote is a human being, as it's DNA is unique and separate from the hosts. Any other argument is made from a scientifically illiterate point and is a sign of confirmation bias. You are literally rejecting the scientific definition of human to fit your preferred narrative.
As to legally and morally, I will address the first part of this. No court case (not even Roe) has ruled that. Nor does the 14A define it as thus (because I've seen some try to use the birthright portion of the 14A as some legal proof that life only begins at birth legally, the 14A doesn't state that, it simply applies citizenship at birth to those born in this country, and unless you are stating non citizens aren't humans that is a silly argument). As to morally, that really depends on your definition of what is moral, and than demanding everyone else agree to your moral definition. As that is self evidently not the case, than the second portion of your post is as incorrect as your first sentence. Just because you state something emphatically doesn't make it any truer.
To be perfectly honest I actually did think of a definition of human that may arguably (but even then not accurately) not include genetically. That would be any member of the only known extant species of hominids known as homo Sapiens. But this would include all past living examples and the determining factor would most likely be genetically homo Sapiens. It was recently proposed, although no proof exists, that another species of extant hominid may exist in Micronesia. So I used known extant species of hominids.
Now define person. How is that definition different than the definition of human? Either scientifically, legally, or philosophically. I am betting you can't because trying to do so is extremely fraught with danger. And if you tried I am betting you would realize this.
Additionally, as the courts have upheld laws that charge a person with double murder for killing a pregnant woman, I would think that legally the idea that a fetus is a person is actually more evidentially based than your assertions.
Additionally, to add to the legal argument, since the US Constitution doesn't define what a person is, nor can I think of any federal law that does or court ruling, I will go to state constitutions, in which several states do define a person to include those in utero. I may be mistaken but I don't believe any state a person is only a person once born, while some do secure a right to abortions.
Here you go. It's 1 USC 8:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8
"We have five judges in Washington deciding to impose their will on everyone else."
...by saying states can make that decision? The Roe men who decided seemed to imposing their will on everybody. The current SCOTUS seems more amenable to allowing the people to decide in this situation.
"That's why the biggest protection of personal medical decision-making and bodily autonomy is about to be overturned."
The past two years of "vaccinate or have your rights limited" belies your claim.
By taking the decision away from the individual and putting it in the hands of the state.
Before it was the purview of the individual, with some exceptions and restrictions. Now it is the purview of the government.
I support the rights of individuals to make decisions for themselves, jot the government. But I know authoritarians think differently.
A couple have actually said that overturning Roe and letting t the State legislatures decide abortion policy was undemocratic. Proving that their appeals to democracy are a shibboleth and they do not care what it actually means.
It's definitely not undemocratic. It's authoritarian and theocratic, but (small d) democratic.
It exactly the sort of issue that we have elected governments to solve.
It is exactly the sort of issue that government should never get involved in. If a woman who desires an abortion can make arrangements to her liking then it is between her, any providers, and their god(s). No-one should be forced to perform one nor to get one.
The morality of your local culture will determine the social acceptance of the actions and the people involved.
Simple and to the point. And 100% true.
Disagree. Unique individual life begins at conception.
You don't want a baby, abstinance is guaranteed. Convenience is not a valid reason for infanticide.
I agree philosophically (as do most people, as most still support the safe, legal and rare or something along those lines but disagree as to how long it should be allowed and how much regulations should be applied). Pragmatically, I think complete bans are unworkable (techniques to induce abortions probably predate modern medicine, although they weren't nearly as effective). I don't think 15 weeks is unreasonable, and most of Europe agrees. In fact the US and Canada are actually far outliers for how late abortions are allowed except under extremely rare exceptions (and most European countries have very restrictive guidelines on those rare exceptions often requiring multiple physicians to write off on abortion being the only viable treatment option).
"The definition of 'very early and very late' is basically the whole argument and there''s no good clearcut answer either."
But having to go through the "judicial process" to get to the Supreme Court, before the definitions can change is the worst way to go forward.
LET DEMOCRACY RULE!
And a big part of that is the definition continue to change as medical knowledge and technology advances. Take the 24 weeks definition of viability. It was mostly correct at the time of Casey, but now many preterm infants survive birth prior to 24 weeks, by as much as a month before this date. And how do we define viability? I've assisted with over 200 births during my time as a nurse. I've had to resuscitate and or apply supplemental oxygen to 40 week or older infants, while having to apply no extra support to 34 week olds. Those were exceptions to the norm, but not so extraordinary to be irrelevant.
No mens rea, no consensus among gibbering apes who seek excuses for coercion, ergo, at worst a vice, not a crime. Lysander Spooner recognized slavery when he saw it, and his "Vices are Not Crimes" demolish all of the superstitious hysteria the slavers seek to reinstate after the LP platform got it contained in 1973.
Gee, someone should invent a method of birth control to avoid unwanted pregnancies.
Or a pill you can take the day after you have sex that keeps you from getting pregnant. They could call it a "morning after pill". What a crazy idea.
...or maybe some kind of group that would inform women as to how babies were made. Maybe call it Planned Parenthood.
Do they have to repeat their eugenics phase?
You can't repeat something until after it ends - - - - - - - - - - - -
It even has a three day window!
Sounds like encouragement of imminently illegal activity in more scarlet states falling under the puritanical boot here?
Bullshit. That's complete hyperbole, the number of people calling for complete bans on contraception, even in my home state of Idaho (heavy Mormon population that believe sex is only for procreation) is so small as to be completely irrelevant. The same with making homosexuality illegal, and homosexual marriage illegal again according to every single poll taken in recent time. Bringing these up as viable results is pure scare mongering.
"the number of people calling for complete bans on contraception"
Not contraception (again, follow the threads.) The reference here is "a pill you can take the day after you have sex that keeps you from getting pregnant". That's a morning after or abortion pill.
Louisiana currently is advancing a bill that classifies terminating a pregnancy as homicide, with a 'no compromise' approach of tying life to fertilization, putting morning after pills in scope.
Many other states have or are developing restrictions on morning after pills, now the most common form of abortion. They are often also developing laws to shut down out-of-state access (tele-providers etc), while neighboring free states will aim to make it safe for people to help provide such access and medical support. We'll see how it unfolds legally.
"scare mongering"
Don't we wish.
Perhaps less quickness to shout out "bullshit", more time reading, including outside partisan media bubbles.
someone should invent a method of birth control to avoid unwanted pregnancies. First fucking post of this thread. It's referring to fucking contraception. The second post on this thread mentioned the morning after pill. Fuck you don't even have your facts straight.
I understand the reason interface is difficult, but the lines on the left can help you match up replies with the comment they are responding to.
Go ahead and do that now with the comment of mine that you replied to. It lines up with "Or a pill you can take the day after you have sex that keeps you from getting pregnant. They could call it a "morning after pill"".
The "Or" was taking the subthread in a new direction, which I responded to. This is confusing but happens in online discussions.
"Fuck you don't even have your facts straight"
I hear the frustration. But you are the one in error here. It's a small error, it's fine.
Keep trying to limit the thread only to that which supports your argument, rather than going back to the original OP. Several people have responded to the second post, which you are arbitrarily trying to limit the discussion to, You're trying to define the thread by limiting it to only Briggs comment, I am defining the thread to include Bumbles original post. Considering several others have replied to the sarcastic reply of Briggs (it was sarcasm if you don't understand) with other examples, your attempt at limiting replies only to the exact subject matter of Briggs tongue in cheek remark is intellectually dishonest. And I note your condescension, and find it highly unwarranted as you have not demonstrated any greater knowledge on these matters. In fact you have made several erroneous remarks in your comments throughout this story, while trying to imply some greater knowledge. You suffer from an unwarranted ego, and hubris, and assume those who disagree with you are less knowledgeable than you are. You do that downstream where you assume a greater knowledge of science than I do. As yours is a new handle, I'm assuming you are not familiar with my educational background or employment background, which I have shared several times (even offering citations to some of my peer reviewed publications, which granted are only tangentially related to reproduction but are in a biological science).
Also to be clear, you stated follow the threads not the subthreads, which is self evidently moving the goal posts after you realized you were wrong. Rather than admitting a mea culpa you instead try to imply I was the one in the wrong. This is just intellectually dishonest.
"Keep trying to limit the thread... I am defining the thread"
Friend. You don't get to tell me what I was replying to or what I meant. What in the world are you trying to do here?
Take care.
And a low cost test that will tell you if you are pregnant without having to wait 20 weeks for a result.
And a simple, cheap way to make people consistently intelligent, conscientious, careful, and considerate.
Oh, wait.
How about we teach kids starting around the age that puberty starts, about the biology behind getting pregnant and how it happens?
Actually read the OP, the thread is tongue in cheek sarcasm and mentions several methods besides abortion to prevent pregnancy, the OP specifically mentioned birth control. So, you are wrong again. As to states banning specific or regulating prescriptions of certain treatments that is standard practice. And some one writing a bill isn't proof of it's widespread support or likelihood to pass. I can name thousands of scary sounding bills proposed every legislative session that never get approved.
In the thread (which I notice you conveniently ignored the original post in your self evident attempt at a gotcha) people have mentioned birth control, sex ed, abstinence, vasectomies as well as abortion pills and the morning after pill (which is different than abortion inducing medication BTW). So even using the thread argument you're still not even technically correct. Thanks for playing.
This was meant in response to the sophistry of waxliberty above.
But expecting people to use birth control to avoid pregnancy is a terrible restriction on the freedom to raw dog it.
If she is on the pill, or using a diaphragm, raw dog all you want. The risk isn't zero, but the only thing that is is abstinence. Even abortions short of complete uterine extractions, aren't 100% effective. And depending on the method used for uterine extraction, that isn't even guaranteed.
I do enjoy the suggestion that it is pro-life social conservatives who have been pushing responsible contraception use against the raw-dogging depravity of the libs.
I suppose that is probably the next history rewrite due, generationally speaking. Just like their heroic support for MLK and civil rights against the Democrats, conservatives bravely campaigned for providing no-nonsense sex and contraception education to kids in schools, raising up institutions like Planned Parenthood against the oppressive resistance of rationalists and liberal scientists.
Since pro life runs the gambit on beliefs in regards to contraception I do enjoy your attempt to imply that pro lifers are against contraception. Guess this is the next rewrite of history (which is far more a Hallmark of progressives than conservatives BTW, as is redefining words).
You are correct. The small minority of people who believe that all abortions should be outlawed are probably indistinguishable from those who oppose contraception (especially emergency contraception, which they erroniously refer to as an abortion pill). But like Soldier said, that isn't even a majority of pro-life advocates. There are more pro-life people who support contraception than oppose it.
When you pass a dodgy landmark ruling based on a case from a woman who lied about the circumstances of her case, expect your "landmark ruling" to be called into question forever and ever, amen.
"...the extent to which Americans have come to rely on the freedom guaranteed by the Court's abortion precedents, whether or not those cases were correctly decided."
If the freedoms were incorrectly guaranteed, then it doesn't actually matter if people rely on them. The court's job is to decide constitutional matters, not matters of how people feel about things. That logic can be applied to some really ugly things.
It is the exact same argument given as to why the Court should not overturn Wickard v Filburn and the understanding of the Commerce Clause that gives the federal government expansive power to regulate anything that can be conceivably be described as "commerce".
Or "affecting commerce". Or --worse yet -- "having moved in commerce."
It was also used as a part of the argument during Brown, that even if Plethy was wrongly decided, the tradition of secession laws were too entrenched in society to overturn. I bet the people raising hell about overturning Roe would like this comparison. In fact, Plethy and Brown are perfect examples of why the age of precedence isn't always applicable. Brown was decided 58 years after Plethy.
At root level, isn't abortion just a way of dodging consequences for (almost entirely) voluntary decisions and actions?
Are we surprised that two major political parties love this issue?
Say "Hi" to the disinformation governance board for me.
None of your fucking business Earth. If a woman needs your help and advise she'll ask you.
So tell us what other encumbrances that women (or everyone) are entitled to void just because they choose to.
Student loans, apparently.
Unlike loans, the woman does not owe you or anyone even a response.
So, you support termination of child support payments, right?
The baby would like to have a few words with you. Likely ‘fuck’ and ‘off’.
Seriously though, fuck off bitch.
The baby is not a baby yet, it is a growing part of the women's body. Not yours, not the governors, and not the supreme courts. If you and your wife want their advise, write them a letter.
Sure it is . Thats why premature babies survive you doofus. Ever look at an ultrasound?
What a stinking pile of BS. I'd abort you on site
more than you know wreck, and my wife who is pro-choice but didn't and wouldn't have an abortion, saw them all the time as an Ob-gyn nurse practitioner. Our granddaughter was born a month premature. So what? My wife also dealt with parents who because they were older went through screening for abnormalities and some were carrying infants with horrific conditions they would not survive beyond a few days to a week and then at great expense and with great trauma to the family, which might include other children.
"Thats why premature babies survive you doofus."
Not before viability.
And viability changes, and fetal aging isn't necessarily accurate, depending on the method used and what time those methods were used. Besides, the viability argument states viability is a fixed point, and discounts medical advancements. It also requires an universal definition of viability. Is a 1% chance of survival viable? A 0.1%? Etc? Or > 50 %? 90%? 99%? (Which would make even term babies considered unviable, as infant death rates remain > 1% and can run higher than 10 % in some populations and locales.
Viability isn't a fixed point in time, but it is an unchanging (and unchangeable) standard. The minimum requirements for sustainable life haven't changed in the entire history of the human race. Like everything in biology, the rate of development in individual organisms will vary, but viability requires the same things whether it is achieved at 20 weeks (the earliest any preemie has survived) or 22-24 weeks (the typical range).
Demanding that human development run on a fixed schedule or viability is "changable" is dishonest framing.
My personal belief is that when you hit 50% chance of survival plus one (as in the minimum necessary to have survival as the majority outcome), that should set the baseline. However with a good argument (obviously made by a pro-life advocate, since anti-abortionists have never made a good argument) I might see the "make absolutely sure all viable fetuses are born" position and get behind 20 weeks.
But logically (and biologically), there is a floor. There is a point at which the brain hasn't developed enough to regulate the body and survival is impossible outside the womb. That, to me, is the earliest point that a fetus could reasonabky be called a person or a human being.
And it is well before the laws that use "heartbeat" (without a heart) or some arbitrary number of weeks based on no scientific or logical reasoning (15 weeks in the case of Mississippi).
Which is why most people (anti-abortion, pro-life, and pro-choice) assume that the states that have been chipping away at Roe for years will pass severe laws (or activate the trigger laws they have already put on the books) once this decision is released.
It’s a distinct life, sentient life all on it’s own. You really are too stupid to have this discussion.
Sentient, but without a brain. Would you care to explain how that is possible?
The brain begins development within the first 24 hours, within days the development of the brain and CNS is already noticable. If you mean higher brain functions, these aren't fully developed until your mid 20s (years of age).
Sentience requires more than just a brain. Just like being a human being requires more than human DNA. Or like being a person requires more than just a fertilized egg. Or (the biggest flaw in the anti-abortion position) like the beginning of a process is very different than the end.
That sort of simplistic reductionism is why anti-abortionists have failed to convince Americans that life begins at conception. Because people aren't stupid and such transparent irrationality and dishonesty makes them realize it isn't a serious argument.
Also, since your post seemed to imply it, I don't know of any credible group that demands sentience as a prerequisite for personhood. Do you?
Additionally define sentience. It is as arbitrary as your attempt to use viable. You believe these are distinct and easily defined terms but that is actually a sign of ignorance. Not that I mean ignorance in the common insulting usage, but in the true meaning of uninformed or uneducated in a certain area meaning.
I didn't say anything about sentience. Vampire did. I just asked him to explain how something with no brain was sentient.
It was a call-out on the irrational, hyperbolic, and evidence-free arguments that anti-abortion extremists routinely use. The idea that a fertilized egg is sentient is, on its face, a ridiculous thing to say.
"it is a growing part of the women's body."
With completely different DNA?
You want to hold on to that one?
Your softly spoken offer to get them a leg up in their career, and suggestion to smile more.
If a woman needs your help and advise she'll ask you.
Same for mask and vaccination mandates?
yeah. opt for the swab test to reduce your health risk to others
So just the same as abortion because abortions end the lives of a separate human being. Thanks for playing.
Hint: repeating circular reasoning doesn't make it stronger.
It's not circular reasoning. The fetus is alive, and almost every biologists agrees (I just happen to have a MS in biological sciences and have taken several courses dealing exactly with this subject And every single one of my multiple professors, including the most ardent pro choice ones all stated that life begins at conception is not controversial according to science any argument to the opposite is purely ideological). It's you whose argument is circular because mine is based on science and biology not feels, like yours.
Addressed elsewhere. You are conflating the presence of biological life (which is continuous) with "a life" in a moral and legal sense. I understand the impulse to find a veneer of scientific rationale but it simply isn't present, as your professors could explain.
There is no getting around that you need to find a *moral* justification for your claim to government power here.
For example, if your claim is correct, a fertility doctor who accidentally mishandles the implanting of an embryo has ended a life and should be subject to prosecution. This is relatively common in fertility practices.
There is a ton of reading about scientific context here available online.
No, you are trying to make the argument that it's continuous and conflating a single human cell that exists as part of a larger host, to a separate, unique lifeform that is distinguishable from it's host.
Your problem is you are conflating two separate issues. The idea that all cells are living and living is a continuous process, which is it is, and then extrapolating this to fit this definition to a zygote or embryo, which is a distinct separate lifeform from it's host.
As for reading on scientific concepts I would again laugh out loud. Mine isn't from on line reading, but from actual courses, lectures and peer reviewed text books, as well as peer reviewed literature.
You are the one making an erroneous argument. By being alive I specifically mean a separate and distinct lifeform as opposed to a skin cell or nerve cell, which are alive in a certain sense but are not unique or separate from the larger being.
You also seem to be confusing homicide and murder. Not all homicides require prosecution. Thus ending a life does not require prosecution. A mistake that causes the death of the embryo during implantation is not murder, but it does end a life. So, no that doesn't require prosecution.
Part of your problem seems to be a misunderstanding of what a biologist means when they utilize the shorthand alive. It's referring, generally, unless otherwise stated, to mean a separate, distinguishable, life. Now if we are talking microbiology, than alive may apply to separate cells that are part of a larger tissue, and or organ system. From this I deduce that you have had only rudimentary, initial biological education, and thus are confused. Otherwise your attempt at a counterargument can only be explained as intellectual dishonesty. As you would be quite aware that I was referring to a separate, unique life as opposed to a simple living cell that is part of a larger being. The zygote is uniquely different than it's host, and while it relies on this host to survive, so do the microbiota that make up you intestinal flora. And I doubt you would argue they aren't alive and separate. They are obviously not human, unlike the zygote which is genetically human (any other definition you could use other than genetics to define a human being I could easily apply to several other mammals that are definitely not humans).
Trying to make the argument that the fetus suddenly becomes a separate living being at some point beyond fertilization is scientifically dubious, which is what my professor then went on to explain to those who disagreed with their declaration as you have tried to do. In fact, some used the same erroneous arguments and analogies you have used. Nothing you have argued are new or unique arguments, and actually are common to those with limited knowledge of the subject.
You absolutely do not speak for biologists when you try to attribute your definitions to them. Circular, semantic arguments are not scientific.
God bless you for caring. I'm not interested in talking you out of your opinion. What is obviously incorrect is the idea that you should be entitled to use government force to force others to adopt your opinion about zygotes and be forced to gestate babies you believe must be developed and birthed. Sorry, that *plainly* contradicts the principles of freedom the country is founded on (but has had to fight to implement).
Have a good weekend.
Is the coliform bacteria in your gut, separate living beings? Are they alive? Yes or no? Can they live for any length of time outside your gut environment? Yes or no? If you answered yes to either of these questions, then trying to argue that a zygote isn't as much a separate living being as a single coliform bacteria in your gut, is logically inconsistent. It has all the same hallmarks as a coliform bacteria in your gut.
And notice I used the example of a single cell bacteria, not a cell that makes up the tissues of your body, as the bacteria has separate DNA from you, the same as a zygote does.
Sperm doesn't have unique DNA (someone tried arguing this). It has 23 chromosomes, but they are 23 of your chromosomes, not separate chromosomes unique and different from your 46 chromosomes.
A squamous cell doesn't have unique or separate DNA (except if we use the irrelevant example of SNP and possible resulting tumors). A neuron doesn't have unique DNA. A myocite doesn't have unique DNA. An osteocyte doesn't have unique DNA. Ignoring the uniqueness of the zygotes DNA is not using the correct terminology, it's ignoring a large portion of how zygotes are different than a myocite or squamous cell that are present in the uterine environment.
You make a compelling argument. I will consider conceding that a zygote has as much right to compel government force to protect its development as a single coliform bacteria in your gut.
You won't catch anything from a pregnant woman or one who had an abortion.
Biden flushed that argument down the toilet with his tripling down on mandating an emergency authorized flu shot.
Mandatory birth control for women should fix this. No more need for abortions. Case closed.
No rational comparison State, but nice pitch to your fellow anti-vaxx idiots, who abound here. You're the guys who helped talk several hundred thousand Americans into dying last year for no good reason.
So is your present rants meant to define the word hypocrite
It's a trivial 5min outpatient procedure to fix this for men - who represent the majority of concern and societal stake here.
We can prioritize those who feel particularly passionate about ensuring every one of their sperm are treated as sacred (and great), and will not cause insemination of an ovum that is not subsequently gestated to term by a cheerful recipient.
No more need for abortions. Case closed.
This plus a little more personal restraint will in total ensure that God will not, in fact, become quite irate.
Abortion is primarily a convenience, at the expense of child’s life.
I appreciate your proselytizing. The topic in this subthread is "Mandatory birth control for women should fix this". Are you trying to imply that your comment supports this point of view, or is this generic proselytizing?
I'm a rationalist and while I can respect different and usually religious perspectives on this (respectfully, no thank you on the flyers), it remains logically clear based on what we can directly observe that, for example, the abortion pill preventing a fertilized ovum from implanting in the uterine wall is not "at the expense of a child's life".
I can acknowledge it is definitely a genetic blueprint for a child, and I can understand the desire to have someone gestate that blueprint into a person, but respectfully disagree on giving you the option of forcing someone to gestate this future person for you.
Perhaps medical advances will allow those who are concerned to volunteer themselves to gestate at some point, which I acknowledge will be a new development in this conversation.
Yes, I understand abortion pills are not the only cases, but they are the majority of cases and are the kind of cases more at issue with Roe's repeal.
And the abortion bill isn't 100% effective. And calling it a potential life is sophistry. It's alive, biologically speaking, and if it fails to implant, then it isn't alive once it's shed. The act of implantation is necessary to continue living. It's like saying that a baby isn't alive until it takes it's first breath. Even though it's heart is beating and the brain is active. Or someone denied food isn't alive. Just because the act of implantation results in fetal death, doesn't render it less alive prior to this point. Prior to implantation the necessary requirements of how life is generally defined (although there is a bit of disagreement, but it's far more in the other direction, e.g. are viruses alive) as a living being. Failure to implant is no different than miscarrying at 16 weeks or intrauterine fetal death. The fetus wasn't less alive because it didn't make it to term. Rather it life ceased to exist after these events. The blue print for a human being, technically speaking are carried in the two gametes. Once they join the form a living cell known as a zygote, which quickly divides forming the fetus, this all occurs prior to implantation. But in all stages after the combination of the gametes, the stages are alive, and genetically speaking, separate humans. Genetically, they are as much human as a 96 yo.
*as a 96 yo on their death bed.
"the abortion bill isn't 100% effective"
? How is this relevant, does it increase the case for government?
"It's alive, biologically speaking"
This just seems like circular/semantic reasoning to me. It is *all* alive, biologically speaking, including the sperm and ovum before they meet. You mean "alive" in a philosophical/moral sense ("a life"), and you are simply declaring the zygote to be this, then citing its status as "life" to conclude your premise (that it is a child and therefore government should step in to protect.)
If you look at scientific language, you'll find it is very different. Science is inherently rooted in logic, not politics. It focuses on testability. Your claim that a zygote is life is not testable without providing some definition of what you mean (by default, it is tautological – humans and all of our reproductive processes are alive).
Scientifically, a zygote is "a diploid cell resulting from the fusion of two haploid gametes; a fertilized ovum." Perhaps that is disappointingly unpolitical, but the terms involved are more precise and ultimately lead to more testable statements.
Actually sperm and eggs might be alive under a certain definition, however, they are not a separate human life. So, again it's not circular or semantics. Calling a preimplantation fetus or zygote a blue print of a human is fucking a semantic argument dipshit. Learn your fucking terms before trying to lecture people who fucking actually have degrees and working knowledge of what they are speaking about. And yes it's an appeal to authority, which are not always logical fallacies, since sometimes expertise in a subject trump's your opinion. You have a manner that suggests an overinflated sense of your superior knowledge and debating skills. I'll gladly compare CVs with you any fucking day of the week. Considering the large number of scientific errors I've seen you make, and the unwarranted assumptions and obvious signs of confirmation bias, I feel strongly confident I have nothing to worry about in that regard. As for semantics you brought it up when you used the weasel words genetic blueprint. That's an admission that you recognize it's uniqueness but don't want to admit as much so you try to weasel out of it, making this a semantics argument, initiated by you.
As for scientific language, I am basing all of my statements on my actual fucking masters of science in a biological science, as well as a previous associates degree in nursing, and my six years of experience as a science professor at a nationally recognized leader in science and engineering education. Oh and 17 years experience prior to getting my BS and MS in nursing in which I worked in labor and delivery, and instructed others in labor procedures and helped write obgyn policies and procedures. So, I find it rather amusing that you pulled that line. It demonstrates massive hubris and narcissism on your part to assume I am scientifically illiterate and basing my statements on politics rather than extensive knowledge and experience in pertinent fields to the current discussion. My CV is on my Linkedin account (albeit it's a couple years out of date and doesn't have my most recent education and publications) if you want to compare.
And no I don't mean in the philosophical extent. The gametes are living cells that are part of your body. The zygote and subsequent fetus are living cells with unique DNA that is a separate being. It's not philosophical, it's science. There is no unique dividing line in utero that defines a living human being vs simple genetic blueprints, because as soon as the gametes combine, they form a distinct and separate living organism, different from it's host. That is a separate human being, gametes are not separate living being from their host organism. You are now trying to argue semantics and don't even clearly understand what you are arguing based upon your analogy of sperm and ovum, e.g. gametes.
As to the pill not being 100%, it's your supposition that these are the cases most associated with Roes appeal. I admit I didn't explain it well enough, because I focused more on your subsequent lack of scientifically valid points in your previous post. My point is that abortion pills (which are not the morning after pill which prevents implantation in most cases but doesn't induce abortion, another thing you got wrong in an earlier post where you tried to conflate the two) are not the only thing impacted by Roe being overturned. And even if they make up the majority of abortions they are not the most reliable means to abort. They are the easiest, but hardly the most effective.
Additionally another thing you got wrong, medical knowledge already allows you to carry another embryo to term. It's widely utilized in domestic cattle and horses. And I don't mean in vitro fertilization, I mean the harvest of formed zygotes and embryos and transfer to a new host. It's just time sensitive, and has to be prior to the end of the embryonic stage and the closer to implantation the greater the success rate (which again demonstrates that the zygote is a separate living being prior to placental implantation). This technology has been around for decades. It's expensive and generally only used in champion competition stock but it does occur. In vitro fertilization is another route.
I will admit to one mea culpa, I stated fetus as I referred to stages after the embryonic in some examples given. To clear up any confusion you might be under, the embryonic stage is the first 8 weeks of development.
And by sperm and eggs are alive, they are living cells, albeit they lack several structures that other human cells have. They are not a separate life. Conflating the two is a a semantics argument. The zygote and embryo and fetus, are separate living beings, the same as the microbiotic life forms that make up the normal Flora of your digestive tract.
Additionally arguing that sperm and ovum are living cells is debatable, as they are incapable of self replications, similar to viruses. The zygote and embryo and fetus are fully capable of self replication. Which is how the embryo and fetus develop. So, your analogy is scientifically dubious. Early in gamete production, yes sperm and ovum can replicate, but mature gametes are incapable of reproduction. So if we define living to include the ability to self replicate (which is a common hallmark used in biology and why many biologists argue viruses are not fully alive as they also lack the ability to self replicate). So, biologically speaking to state gametes are alive would require that viruses are also alive. As this is a highly debated subject in biology, I would have to state that as an analogy it's lacking.
And a zygote is distinctly unique genetically. Which is even more scientifically correct. Nice try. I know what a zygote is. It's cute you tried to school me when I used the term correctly. The zygote is not genetically identical to any other living organisms that has ever existed (and don't try the identical twin argument, as the formation of twins doesn't occur until much later in development). I'm glad you can use wikipedia to look up what a zygote is. It's really amusing to watch your misplaced hubris.
But what IS a woman?
Funny how all these people who say only a biologist could know suddenly figured it out.
Not so much dodging consequences as adjusting courses of action.
But yes, everything in this issue is only in the realm of the spiritual and personal and has no place in public (governance) discourse.
I think the problem is that abortion is not a daily occurrence in people's lives and so it is difficult to understand. It is a medical procedure that you need when you need it. We know that about one in four women will have an abortion in her lifetime. When you are my age (mid 60's) you likely know a number of women that have had abortions. Most have gone on to have families. It not that they did not want children, but knew it was not the right time. You know families that have surprises (late children), but you don't really know those couples that having raised their kids, chose not to bring the surprise into the world. I also know some of the tragedies that friends and family have gone through when problems developed and a pregnancy had to be ended.
People do need to know what Roe really says, but they also need to know why abortion really need to be safe and hopefully rare.
If one in four women are having abortions, it’s not rare.
Yes, and that should be where our focus be. Not on outlawing a medical procedure, but rather looking at why it is necessary and what can be done to reduce the need. Compare the effort that goes into outlawing abortion with the effort to prevent the need. How many of these state legislatures are working to better educate young people about sexuality and birth control? How about making birth control more acceptable and more reliable? How about helping families so that another child is a blessing not a burden? I could go on, but the fact is talk about talk is cheap and I see more of that than I see real action.
And there you go
"I notice that everyone for abortion has already been born""- Reagan
It's about the baby not the mother
And there you go.
The woman doesn't matter, the bundle of cells does.
The thing is, it's 'necessary' because, being so easily available, too many people consider it a primary form of birth control rather than the last resort it used to be.
Easily accessible, safe, and rare - you can only have 2. It's just human nature.
Or, it's not the state's business to decide whether abortion is a tragedy or a convenience.
You people are so acutely interested in not having the state make personal decisions when it's your orifices being probed.
Funny how everything else is the state’s business. Except for infanticide.
Stay in your own lane cocksucker.
Sexual continence would solve 95+% of this problem. Renewing the ideal that children should be born into intact families consisting of married parents would solve the overwhelming bulk of issues related to financial support for children.
You don't get to hold a gun to a child's head and threaten to kill him or her if everyone else doesn't lavish financial largesse on you because you can't responsibly order your sexual affairs.
Really? Intact families are the solution? Should we outlaw divorce? Force widows to marry? Have rape victims marry their rapists? Make domestic abuse victims stay with their abusers?
Intact families are irrelevant to abortion. They're actually irrelevant to almost everything except the happiness and joy that a strong marriage brings to the two people in it.
Marriage as a societal good has been shown to be a flawed belief for as long as I've been alive. It was probably known long before that, but cultural conservatives like to paint those who reject their worldview as bad people.
Divorce is almost always a better thing than an unhappy marriage. Especially for the kids.
Pick up on the economy-wrecking prohibitionist banner of Beelzebub's Beer to lecture libertarians on ethics and rights. May the brain tumor controlling those thoughts be pronounced a Sacred Individual with medical solutions prohibited by Sharia law.
How many of these state legislatures are working to better educate young people about sexuality and birth control? How about making birth control more acceptable and more reliable? How about helping families so that another child is a blessing not a burden?
I'm 65 and I got sex-ed in High School and since then condoms, contraceptives, and abortions have been showered on the kids without requiring parental consent.
How much more do you suggest we do?
Yeah……yeah…… people have all kinds of reasons for committing murder.
They had to defend themselves against a baby. That thing can ruin your party life, brah.
1 in 4 is not rare
And if they knew it was not the right time - why are they fucking around in ways that will get you pregnant. You know condoms, pill, and oral sex make pregnancy effectively impossible.
Missing is your argument for why the state should be able to punish women for not having sex in a way you approve of.
It’s not about having sex you fucking imbecile, but the getting pregnant and using abortion as birth control. Why the fuck do you even care faggot? You don’t like women or children, so what’s it to you? You loved the government telling people what to do and put in their bodies when you were scared of catching Covid. Fucking hypocrite.
Do you actually believe the "abortion is commonly used as the primary form of birth control" nonsense or are you just so eager to blame women for pregnancy that you are willing to accept anything that supports your agenda?
Maybe I'm wrong, though. What evidence do you have that abortions are constantly used by irresponsible sluts who don't do anything to prevent pregnancy?
“Do you actually believe the "abortion is commonly used as the primary form of birth control" nonsense or are you just so eager to blame women for pregnancy that you are willing to accept anything that supports your agenda?”
Well, considering that the percentage of women who get abortions based on rape, incest, or medical emergencies is <1%, yeah Nelson, it’s being used as birth control.
Also, why are you denigrating women who get pregnant by calling them sluts? You have a weird way of White Knighting women.
"Well, considering that the percentage of women who get abortions based on rape, incest, or medical emergencies is <1%, yeah Nelson, it’s being used as birth control."
There aren't only two caregories. Everything that isn't rape, incest, or medical emergencies can't be labeled "convenience". At least honest people wouldn't do that. Anti-abortionists would.
"Also, why are you denigrating women who get pregnant by calling them sluts?"
If you can't recognize a sarcastic reference to a frighteningly large number of posts by the anti-abortion army in these comments, you obviously lack awareness of who views pregnant women (especially unmarried women) as irresponsible, wanton, immoral hedonists who revel in murder.
Yes, that language denigrates women. You should start calling out the people who say those things and mean it. I can't wait for you to express your outrage about derogatory language towards women to your fellow tribemembers.
“Yes, that language denigrates women. You should start calling out the people who say those things and mean it.”
I just did, lol.
Make a convincing argument. You counter my 1% point with the equivalent of “Nuh Uh!” Use some critical thinking and make a goddamn coherent point. I’m not a low IQ right wing extremist. I brought that statistic up to see what a pro choice counter argument would be.
Not everybody here argues in bad faith, but you do you.
Missing is your argument about how babies have no civil rights. Including the right not be murdered.
Babies have all the rights of any other person. Embryos and fetuses don't because they aren't babies.
Most of them are spontaneous, and many are unnoticed.
A few years of "SHOUT YOUR ABORTION" and prominent lefties championing it belies your "rare" claim.
63m abortions is anything but "rare".
63 million abortions a year? What?
A good example of when a graphical depiction of the data would help, except the total confusion regarding what the law actually is is the very point of the article.
What a mess!
So what we have discovered is that political polling on bumper sticker slogans is of little practical use.
Abortion is a difficult issue. There are the rights of two different humans that are tied together and the to a lesser extent the rights of the father. At the root of the question is when does life begin.
Clearly a fetus is not capable of living on it's own until 24 weeks or so. Carrying a child does require some adjustments to the life of the mother.
The potential remainder of life of the mother is approximately 20 less than the life of the child. The mother and father in the vast majority of situations willingly engaged in the acts that resulted in pregnancy. There is a degree of responsibility and not being cavalier towards the life of the child.
In my opinion Roe v Wade is bad law because this difficult issue is enforced at the Federal level instead of at the State level. Very clearly there are differences in opinion and addressing the question at the State level allows different solutions to be found.
Personally, I would like to see some restrictions after approx. 15 weeks. This would limit the distress in the majority of cases. Women would have the right to choose in the first 15 weeks, but then as the child grows the rights of the child increases. To me partial birth abortion is simply murder.
I understand that there will always be exceptions, but rules should not be driven by the exceptions. Instead rules should be written for the 90 percent however taking possible exceptions into consideration.
It is a fallacy that every exceptions or conflicting situations can be written into a rule. Regardless of how cleverly crafted there will always be a conflict that is not addressed within the rule. Instead rules needs to clearly address the intent so judges have plain language.
Polls for the most part are essentially propaganda. The results are dictate by the questions which are often leading in search of an expected result.
I suspect that the vast majority of people are truly in favor of some restrictions to abortion (not an outright ban or no restrictions), that most people consider a fetus to be a child, and feel that partial birth abortions are essentially akin to murder.
Great post. I would add that a baby/toddler/child is not viable on their own for years after birth. And although the physical bond is strongest during pregnancy the total bond gets stronger not weaker after birth.
Ask parents at their child's one year birthday how they feel now versus the middle of the pregnancy.
Viability doesn't mean what you are trying to mischaracterize it as meaning.
But the reframing of what "independent" means in the abortion debate is either rampant stupidity on the anti-abortion side (not likely) or intentional dishonesty.
Given how dishonest anti-abortionists are, that would be the most obvious conclusion even if you believed that somehow all anti-abortionists are stupid. And almost no one believes all anti-abortionists are stupid.
Roe left the decision up to the individual. You can't get more free than that. The controversy is that Republicans want the state to make these decisions for everyone. This is despite overwhelming majorities supporting the rights conferred by Roe. That's why they're doing it via their court packing scheme.
+1
Republican do not want the state to make decisions for everyone only for women and minorities. They strongly support the freedom of old white men.
From reading your posts on a regular basis, I am certain that you know that's a crock of shit. And that you also know your appeal to emotion ad hominem hybrid won't sway anyone here.
"crock of shit"
Are you saying Republicans want women to make decisions for themselves working with their doctors on things like morning after pills? If so, why is all of this happening – Roe overturning, red state legislatures removing that freedom? You call things a "crock of shit" that are actually happening. Is this just the raw big lie strategy again – doesn't matter how obviously false, you are going to repeat it, more loudly until it is the only thing in your ears?
When 4th-6th amendment rights for Black Americans became the national debate in 2020, where did Republicans land? Mostly refusal to accept any concerns about black lives at all, reversion to "when the looting starts the shooting starts" and rallying around the authority of officers to apply any force they wish including deadly, if they can make any claim at all to a justification and/or a concern.
What do Black voters make of this "crock of shit", how do they vote?
So much bullshit 8n your statement, with a healthy serving of hypocrisy. As you are a statist pig on nearly every subject.
Ah, Credere Obbedire Combattere fascism resulted in teratogenic mystical brainwashing of children as Duce and Pederast signed their Lateran version of the Hitler-Stalin pact. Huomo here is the girl-bullying issue from that abortion. This is the mentality whereby Nixon and Ford licked the blacking off of "pro-life" communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu's jackboots. May a similar finale answer all their prayers.
Why is it, those females who screech the loudest are fat ugly types with blue or green hair and pieces of metal hanging off their faces?
Yeah, the real beauties. Sorry ladies, you won't ever have to worry about needing an abortion because who would want to procreate with anything like you? I suppose there are some guys desperate enough to take them to bed but they would need a little alcoholic aphrodisiac.
As for the violence now occurring in cities like L.A. they are of course, being directed by leaders in the democrat party.
They’re venting their anger at being ugly, unpleasant freakshows.
Ah, venting out a bit of the misogyny will go a *long* way towards proving all those women wrong about you, absolutely. Let it out.
"Sir, how do you justify your belief that you should have control over women's uteruses, that in fact you are concerned about growing new life and *not* just taking part in age old witch hunts over women's independence?"
"Well I'm sick to death of having to listen to those fat ugly women opening their big mouths trying to make me feel dumb using words I don't have time or interest to read up on. Have any idea how it feels when someone I think is not that attractive slaps my hand away? Fuck them!"
Cheers to you.
The polls are predictably skewed to yield a certain result. You'd think folks would realize that after the last two elections.
But rescinding Roe doesn't make abortion illegal. It just returns it to the states where it was from 1790-1972. The deep blue states will almost certainly keep abortion legal up until the moment of birth. They may try a little after even.
The pact between the states, the constitution, was never meant for all to be the same. GA and NY weren't the same then and they aren't the same now.
And all women have to do to create this (small r) republican utopia is surrender their personal medical decisions and bodily autonomy. Why would anyone be upset about that.
"Take the shot" says "hello".
Women have markedly more influence over state decisions than federal ones.
"Take the shot" says "hello".
You don't have to take the shot. Millions chose not to. You do, however, have to accept that your choice might cause you some difficulties in employment and enjoyment of bars, restaurants, and museums (to name a few).
While I don't like vaccine mandates, I recognize that how others will respond to my vaccine status is a reasonable consequence of my decision.
Accepting responsibility for the consequences of your actions is what mature adults do. Rejecting accountability and blaming someone else for your choices is not.
"Women have markedly more influence over state decisions than federal ones."
They have even more influence over their own bodies. Or they would if it weren't for the forces of theocratic authoritarianism empowering the state to coerce them.
Thet already dis eith the unprecedented COVID-19 vaccine mandates.
Anyone else notice how fast the human excrements devolve into calling the baby a tumor or a parasite. It's because they cannot make a reasonable argument yet they don't see the error in their ways.
When you want to deny a human individual any moral consideration, the most used tactic is to dehumanize them in terms that elicit disgust.
But you just called people excrement.
You’re excrement. You also spew excrement, via your comments.
Maybe there is a place, or places, to hash out all these issues and actually understand them, that includes the input of thousands of people (50 times x number of state legislators and governors), rather than 9 people. If only there was a way....
Overturning Roe-v-Wade is just the start. Next comes the anti-abortion laws and their ENFORCEMENT.
- Get ready for new and invasive policing of people's personal lives that will make the "War on Drugs" look like a non-event.
Where was the invasive policing before 1973?
For these people, history staryed in 2009.
Yep. We’re gonna appoint. It Romney to take away women’s tampons!
Roe -will not help in the midterms. Pelosi is campaigning with a pro life pro capitalist democrat in Texas, while AOC is campaigning with pro choice, pro wealth confiscation commie. It’s free markets versus tyranny for the midterms.
Disturbing recent abortion investigation from the socialist left:
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/activism-uncensored-leftist-anti?s=r
The Republican supreme court declared conscription = freedom, then beer = evil slavery, then 10 yrs on a chain gang for teaching birth control a misdemeanor unworthy of judicial notice. Guns-blazing no-knock raids over plant leaf is to it democratic freedom--like the mob attacking the Capitol. HL Mencken suggested a vacancy might be had on the Christian Temperance Union--White Terror Court by setting someone's gown alight...
Whether you think Roe was correct or incorrect with respect the the constitution, it was a fundamentally libertarian decision. It said government simply has no role to play in these personal bodily decisions and has no place deciding such controversial moral questions for everyone. It's left to individuals and their doctors.
Republicans hate it that the state can't insert itself into our bodily orifices because they are theocratic freaks who think it's possible and desirable to dictate the ways we conduct ourselves sexually.
Either you're a libertarian or you aren't. Republicans have to choose between supporting small government and supporting medical theocracy.
As to what the constitution *really* says, that's a story we concoct out of thin air and tell ourselves. These elderly freaks just want to impose their stupid and horrific religious worldview on the rest of us. If they're claiming they have no choice because of what the constitution says, they're simply lying.
I’m up for expanding the right to privacy to IRS forms. Until then, no special carvesoutsies.
How condescending! Per CDC, 92.7% of abortions are performed before 13th week. I have to imagine that women in that other 7.3% are experiencing some extreme circumstances.
What these numbers reveal is that, contrary to right wing fantasy, women understand that the further a pregnancy progresses, the more traumatic a termination is--we don't need laws to tell us that. Access to abortion allows for early termination, while restrictive laws make delay more likelly.
Whether or not people know the details of the law, they know what their lived experience has been like under it's protection. 22 states have "trigger laws" that will make abortion illegal immediately upon overturning Roe. That's an unfamiliar world -- one people whose implications people might actually not understand.
But lefties are too stupid to understand that abortion won't be outlawed?
Who let the female into an all-male libertarian discussion? Or was it the LP that abdicated defense of individual rights after our plank became Roe? Did the LP abandon eternal vigilance or are women's rights no longer important? Three out of four LP members were male last I saw them counted--back when individuals were "All persons born..." Is the idea to smear the entire party with Orange Lutheran Hitlerism until we too deserve the fate that awaits the Gee-Oh-Pee?
One point I don't see brought up often in discussion of abortions is that most people who have them or do them are not meanies who think they're doing anything wrong. If people's intuitive sense is that what they're doing is OK, isn't that a strong argument all its own? Most crimes are actions that the actors themselves think are wrong.
ALL crimes are so defined largely thanks to the doctrine of mens rea. Mystical bigotry seeks to define everything except prayer and abstinence as criminal. How else can they enlist other people's money and weapons into the initiation of deadly force it takes to run a pro-Life Crusade? Lysander Spooner proved that equivocating non-crimes into crimes makes governments non-viable. In response the bigots bleat that Spooner was an anarchist!
Hobbes in The Elements of law Natural and Politic chapter 16 continues to develop a framework of governance (morality) that may give insight into that discussion.
Come on Reason, rethink the premise of your story. Not once do you question whether the people voting to strike down R v W understand the question and implications. I am sure you are correct that the pro respondents are often not nuanced, but neither are the con.
Do Americans who can’t comprehend logic and science understand anything?
Smh. Let's pray for a productive outcome on all this. Thanks for sharing.
All the Supreme Court is doing is allowing the legislature to decide abortion policy. They’re not declaring any laws invalid.
Roe was argued and decided 50 years ago. There is no good reason for The Court to revisit it now, let alone overturn.
It collapsed 36 years ago when DNA science proved the baby is another person from its mother.
Had it been overturned then, as it should have, tens of millions of helpless innocent lives would have been saved from murder.
33 years ago,
Was that before or after the Holocaust didn't happen? I keep forgetting your insane beliefs because all that I remember is that you deny the Holocaust.
Let's be honest. That makes anything you say suspect.
Let’s be honest.
Neither you nor anyone else has ever refuted anything that I’ve said.
I’ve shared evidence that refutes the holocaust.How do you feel about denying what you can’t refute?
How long was Pleey v Ferguson decided? Brown v Bd of Education should have never been even brought to trial, eh?
If you were not being sarcastic.
Bad rulings, have no expiration dates silly.
Thanks for your beyond belief blogs stuff. looking for a Accountant In St Neots ? Check out this!
Clearly not. Example:
https://reason.com/2022/05/06/ending-roe-threatens-more-than-abortion-rights/
That the word ptrotitute really only came up once on this entire page, article and comments, shows none of you are educated on the implications of legal abortion.
It's absolutly central to the feminist movement's core constituents, prostitutes.
What more powerfully destroys social integrity than war between the sexes?
Also, what at this point is honestly more pointless to discuss as a central topic than abortion?
Why are we allowing ourselves to be radicalised by this supposed leftist/rightist false dichotomy?
What could be less interesting than abortion? Abortion isnt the only way to terminate a pregnancy. Someone thought that something might be fixed by making abortion illegal? Really? Were you really that stupid?
You may as well make weed illegal again. Maybe it'll change something besides gangs and pot farmers going out of business.... idiots.
Bodily integrity argument falls flat on its face when and where another person is needed to assist. The right to your own body does not include the right 9f someone else to go into it and certainly not the right of someone else to go into it and terminate someone elses life. At this point we're no longer talking about the right to one's own body as a pretense to let someone else into it to kill yet another body.
The interesting thing to note here is the clear interest of the hard narcotic trade proponants taking an interest here. Its not just that the left is in bed with these slime thats worth point out. Its that the right to one's own body is the primary vehicle by which these ilegal phamecutical lobiests manipulate.
All this was contained in my opinion draft btw.
And frankly, the assertion that the "created mankind to be equal" clause, really did not intend to extend subjective equality to women, is solid and constitutional. The founders were not these feminazi prostitute homo nun drug cults comprising the demonicrat core constituency. Or these theist fronts for castrated alter boys. Rather, the constitution is meant to reflect natural law as supirior to subjective law. Subjective law is no more natural law per virtue of even ubiquitous subjectivist opinion scenario. Truth exists independently of you and your opinion no matter how many of you carry the same delusion to the contrary.
"Created mankind to be equal" even when taken as inclusive of women, does not then honestly suggest the misinterperataion that women should be equal to men, but rather that women should be equal to eachother and that men should be equal to eachother and that there should be nothing wrong with that. Problem? Western culture pederast heritage. The statment was overwhelminly meant to denote that no man should have way to be pedetast lord of another, the predominating culture they came here to flee. Namely, catholics. Catholics are long since hell bent on homosexuality. The supposed cloistering of convents and monistaries really just a front to motivate conditions where only homosexuality were possible. Their supposed afront to homosexuality really just a vehicle to force gay men into monisteries and xxy's into convents. Not the worst solution by the way but then when made a highly influential social force, catholics cause a poisonous issue. The original deal was that they would be kept separate from cis gendered society, a deal which they've failed to maintain, completely. Largly due to gays sometimes not wanting to be a part of a sexualy segregated roman cult but not for virtue of sexual segregation or roman cults but for virtue of adoration of aberation and for heroin dependence. Heroin is crucial reproductive chemical of the homosexual reproductive scheme.
When abused heroin becomes tge only goal in one's mind due to basic animal training algorithms. Everything ascociated with heroin then becomes central and permisable in ones mind due to natural human development instincts. Its an ancient tool of the roman pederasty/catamite enslavement model. And note the distinct connection between catamite and castratio(castrated alterboys).
But whats the real issue? What tool are you best going to be able to deploy to combat the problem of global overpopulation. It seams everyone is most interested in the tools tgat best support their ulterior motives and hayeful of every tool that doesnt support these sometimes primary goals of tangental groups.
Catholics only want every impossible and unnatural tool "ubiquitous celebacy in conjunction with homosexuality" and hate contraception, bodily process managment, education(serious contraceptive btw, youre completely turned off right now unless youre a junky homo jesuit) etc.
Openly gay homos only want drugs, prostitute slaves clamped onto abortion knives, and nuclear biological cataclysm and faggot rock colonisation.
Straight people are too busy either hating life per virtue of being sorrounded by madness that makes natural existance impossible, or, they're too busy loving life being anethitised by a hoard of drug pushers of every literal and/or metiphorical narcotic. They're too ignorent of the operative forces and facts and often in complete contrarionism just waiting for a strysand effect tgey can believe in. And its really quite amazing how far over the edge of the cliff they'll hang before looking down. Maybe grow wings perhaps?
I've literally heard some feminazis recently state they're in full support of the patriarchy... what patriarcy? Cis gendered males are not an organization. We're not a group. Only 90% of tge knives in our backs coming out of a war with the most mysogynustic nations of the earth are from feminazi homo cults. The last 10% is from eachother who're supposedly this so called patriarchy. It seems to be headed by some damned pederast somewhere...
Before was brought up "western pederast heratage" this is a fact of cristianity. You were all subjugated by carpet baggers for tge roman pederast cults. The supporting citations to this fact are too numorous to count and your ignorence of this fact proves your ignorence of your own cultute and the forces manipulating you. You know as much about your own history as a tea leaf might know the history of the east india company. Youre just a poser for a gang that was damned fool enough to think your leaders werent your worst enemies. Sure some of them might have a room for you in their piramid schemed/themed wwZ fallout shelter, but.... youre missing tge bloody wwZ part and the piramid scheme part.... some of you might actially think you'd like to survive wwZ. Lol. Are you really that horny to fight over tge last bar of soap?
What is it besides pederasty to liken another male to a female as tho a female should be condenable? Not only would you have just only likened yourself to a homoerotica writer but probably also just made what ever homo you're supposedly refering to very horny. Now, if you're only hyperboly refering to someone you know isnt female or characteristic there of as a symbol of how macho you are, how macho are you when youve literaly just described yourself as a pederast? Pederasty is an ancient roman slavery model using emasculation as a central tenant. While a pederast mighr often consider themselves as cis gendered, tgats really just a subjective vaneer to cover the factual faggotry of it. How did pederast precepts become so common in western culture do you suppose if you werent literaly lead by faggots?
Cristian theists and their ignorence is a linch pin in any real hope of untangling this mess. Its not the only lynchpin mind you, its just the lynch pin blocking any real meaningful solutuon and the lynchpin that should have been the easiest to remove.
Why so fail?
The real problem im finding on reason.com is that more often than not it's just another group being seduced by a league of narcotic proponants, prostitution proponants, and recently theism peoponants. Basically everyone demogogued by twisted namblanese catholics...
Can humanity really only exist as either totalitarian absolutists or completely shameless slime of unimaginable oozyness?
Perhaps we'll be better people as ashes.
Slightly better rough draft...
Jesse Wegman, a member of the New York Times editorial board,
Non starter right there