After 53 Earth Days, Society Still Hasn't Collapsed
The Limits to Growth is still “as wrongheaded as it is possible to be.”

Cassandra in Greek mythology was the Trojan priestess who was cursed to utter true prophecies but never to be believed. Ideological environmentalism features a cohort of reverse Cassandras: They make false prophecies that are widely believed. Stanford biologist Paul Ehrlich in his 1968 classic, The Population Bomb, prophesied, "The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now." Ehrlich continues to predict imminent overpopulation doom.
Another reverse Cassandra was Rachel Carson who warned in her 1962 Silent Spring of impending cancer epidemics sparked by humanity's heedless use of synthetic pesticides. In fact, even as pesticide use has risen, rates of cancer incidence and mortality have been falling for 30 years.
On the occasion of the 53rd Earth Day, let's take a look at the prophecies of another reverse Cassandra, the Club of Rome's 1972 The Limits to Growth report by Donella Meadows, Dennis Meadows, Jorgen Randers, and William Behrens. The book and its dire forecasts were introduced to the world at a March 1972 conference at the Smithsonian Institution. Let's focus primarily on the report's nonrenewable resource depletion calculations. The 1973 oil crisis was widely taken as confirming the book's dire scenarios projecting imminent nonrenewable resource depletion.
Back in 1989, I spent the day at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) talking with some of the folks who had put together The Limits to Growth, especially with Jay Forrester, who had devised the World 2 systems dynamics computer model. The Limits to Growth team developed a modified version of Forrester's model that they dubbed World 3 upon which the report chiefly relied for its findings. In the first chapter of the book, the researchers were particularly interested in and concerned about the nature of exponential growth. "Nearly all of mankind's current activities," they wrote, "can be represented by exponential growth." Exponential growth occurs when something is increasing or growing rapidly as a result of a constant rate of growth applied to it. Compound interest is an example of exponential growth.
In the second chapter on the limits to exponential growth, the researchers asked, "What will be needed to sustain world economic and population growth until, and perhaps, even beyond, the year 2000?" The "physical necessities" included food, raw materials, and fossil and nuclear fuels. The researchers aimed to "assess the world's stock of these physical resources, since they are the ultimate determinants of the limits to growth on this earth."
On October 16, 1989, Forbes published my article "Dr. Doom." Using data from the report's Table 4 on global 1972 nonrenewable resource reserves and expected future rates of consumption, I calculated how much longer the global reserves estimated by the MIT team would last. "Limits to Growth predicted that at 1972 rates of growth the world would run out of gold by 1981, mercury by 1985, tin by 1987, zinc by 1990, petroleum by 1992, copper, lead and natural gas by 1993," I wrote.
The depletion dates I cited simply came from reading those data right off of their exponential index years listed in column 5 in Table 4. As they explained in a footnote to Table 4, their column 5 calculations represent "the number of years known global reserves will last with consumption growing exponentially at the average annual rate of growth." As an example, the authors calculated that at the current rate of consumption global supplies of copper would last 36 years but applying the annual average rate of growth in copper consumption of 4.6 percent yielded the result that known global copper reserves would be used up in only 21 years.
So at the exponentially increasing rates of consumption that the researchers fully expected to ensue, known reserves in 1972 of gold would be depleted in nine years; mercury in 13 years; tin in 15 years; zinc in 18 years; petroleum in 20 years; and copper, lead, and natural gas in 22 years.


As I reported in my Forbes article when I asked Forrester about these figures, he told me, "I think in retrospect that Limits to Growth overemphasized the material resources side." Well, yes.
However, The Limits to Growth, remains something of a sacred text to certain 21st-century prophets of impending resource doom. For example, the "peak oil" panic at the beginning of this century later morphed into a "peak everything" frenzy. One especially avid defender of The Limits to Growth faith is University of Florence physical chemist Ugo Bardi. Bardi was an early and enthusiastic proponent of peak oil, publishing his book, The End of Oil, in 2003 and moving on to peak everything in 2007. Bardi was particularly anxious to defend The Limits to Growth.
On March 8, 2008, at the now defunct peak oil website The Oil Drum, Bardi published a long essay, "Cassandra's Curse: how 'The Limits to Growth' was demonized." Bardi wrote, "Just as Cassandra was not believed, so it was for the "Limits to Growth" which, today, is still widely seen as a thoroughly flawed study, wrong all along. This opinion is based only on lies and distortions but, apparently, Cassandra's curse is still alive and well in our times." According to Bardi, the chief liar and distorter was me.
"We can locate a specific date and an author for the actual turning point, the switch that changed LTG from a respectable, if debatable, study to everybody's laughing stock. It happened in 1989 when Ronald Bailey, science editor of the Forbes magazine, published a sneering attack (Bailey 1989) against Jay Forrester, the father of system dynamics. The attack was also directed against the LTG book which Bailey said was, 'as wrong-headed as it is possible to be'.
To prove his point Bailey revived an observation that had already been made in 1972 by a group of economists on the "New York Times" (Passel 1972). Bailey said that:
'Limits to Growth" predicted that at 1972 rates of growth the world would run out of gold by 1981, mercury by 1985, tin by 1987, zinc by 1990, petroleum by 1992, copper, lead and natural gas by 1993.'"
Yes, I did. And so did the book's own authors. Just take another look at the data they published in their Table 4.
I was actually unaware of Passel's New York Times April 2, 1972 book review, but now that I've read it, it really stands the test of time. In any case, with respect to Limits' analysis of resource depletion Passel notes in his criticism that according to Limits: "World reserves of vital materials (silver, tungsten, mercury, etc.) are exhausted within 40 years." As it happens, the calculations in Column 6 of Table 4 which assumes five-times known reserves actually did project the depletion of those minerals in next four decades or so. Now, 50 years later, Passel has been prescient.
In any case, Bardi continues to damn me for poor reporting. Bardi asserts that Table 4 "was there only to illustrate the effect of a hypothetical continued exponential growth on the exploitation of mineral resources. Even without bothering to read the whole book, the text of chapter 2 clearly stated that continued exponential growth was not to be expected." In fact, I did read the whole book, and I still have my highlighted and underlined copy beside me even as I type this essay.
Let's see what the text in chapter 2 actually says:
"But column 4 in table 4 shows that the world usage rate of every natural resource is growing exponentially. For many resources the usage rate is growing even faster than the population, indicating both that more people are consuming resources each year and also that the average consumption per person is increasing each year. In other words, the exponential growth curve of resource consumption is driven by both the positive feedback loops of population growth and of capital growth."
So Bardi is clearly wrong. The Limits' researchers did fully expect the exponential consumption of nonrenewable resources to continue. Bardi goes on to observe that "the rest of the book, then, showed various scenarios of economic collapse that in no case took place before the first decades of 21st century." In large part, the projected collapse of civilization doesn't occur until after the year 2000 because the Limits researchers' standard computer model run "assumed that in 1970 there was a 250-year supply of all resources, at 1970 usage rates." They tellingly add, "The static reserve index column of the resource table in chapter II will verify that this assumption is indeed optimistic."

So, 50 years on, how has the standard run fared with respect to the imminent depletion of non-renewable natural resources? Not so well. In her 2021 update to Limits of Growth, Gaya Herrington, the vice president of ESG [environmental, social, and governance] Research at the KPMG consultancy, attempts to rescue the forecasts made in the 1972 study. Her new dire study of imminent resource depletion garnered headlines such as "Yep, it's bleak," "2030 to Mark the Decline of Civilization," and "Society is right on track for a global collapse."
Herrington focuses on four scenarios from an earlier 2004 modeling update published by the original team of researchers. Comparing the 2004 model run with the 1972 model run is interesting.

Tracking the projections in the 1972 model run projected that more than three-quarters of the world's nonrenewable resources existing in 1900 would have been used up by now. The track in the revised 2004 version lowers that projection to only about one-third of the world's resources by now. In Herrington's 2020 Harvard sustainability thesis that preceded her published 2021 update, the blue track traces what she calls the "business-as-usual" (BAU) nonrenewable resource depletion projected in the 1972 The Limits to Growth standard run.

Her chart also tracks the projections of two other computer modeled scenarios— comprehensive technology (CT-gray) and stabilized world (SW-yellow)—of nonrenewable resource use over the rest of this century. To devise her estimates of nonrenewable resources, Herrington relied chiefly upon the earlier studies from other researchers who are also infatuated with The Limits to Growth computer modeling. With respect to remaining fossil fuel reserves, she cites the high (purple) and low (green-gold) global estimates from Australian physicist Graham Turner. Making the heroic assumption that the sources upon which Herrington relies for her estimates of nonrenewable resource reserves, her chart shows that humanity has so far exploited only about 20 percent of those resources instead of depleting them by 80 percent as projected in 1972.
Herrington derives another global fossil fuels along with metals reserve projections (green) from the 2014 study, Natural Resources in a Planetary Perspective, by University of Iceland chemical engineer Harald Sverdrup and sustainability scientist Kristin Vala Ragnarsdottir. Interestingly, Sverdrup and Ragnarsdottir begin their study by citing the Cassandra myth. They then assert that a fatally optimistic humanity has failed to heed the prophecies of impending collapse made modern environmentalist Cassandra's including Thomas Robert Malthus (overpopulation), Marion King Hubbert (peak oil), Paul Ehrlich (overpopulation), and, of course, The Limits to Growth.
Let's delve a bit into the global nonrenewable resource reserves used in Herrington's Limits update as calculated by Sverdrup and Ragnarsdottir. "It is now well documented that fossil fuels are experiencing peak production now," they assert. In fact, they calculate that global oil production peaked in 2008. Is that so? The world was producing 83 million barrels per day in 2008, and post-pandemic production is slated to be over 100 million barrels per day this year. (Although Russia's invasion of Ukraine is now roiling global markets.)
With respect to metals and minerals, the Icelandic researchers in 2014 calculated that the remaining recoverable reserves of copper, zinc, and lead stood at 560 million tons, 1.1 billion tons, and 700 million tons, respectively. In contrast, the U.S. Geological Survey's Mineral Commodity Summaries 2022 report estimates a remaining resource base for copper, lead, and zinc at 2.1 billion tons, 1.9 billion tons, and 2 billion tons, respectively.
In 1972, Limits estimated that world's remaining reserves of copper amounted to 308 million tons, gold at 11,000 tons, tin at 4.37 million tons, zinc at 123 million tons, and lead at 91 million tons. Crude oil reserves stood at 455 billion barrels and natural gas reserves amounted to 1.14 quadrillion cubic feet. At 1972 rates of consumption, all of those reserves would have been entirely depleted before the year 2000.
The USGS reports that 50 years later current proved reserves of copper stand at 880 million tons, gold at 54,000 tons, tin at 4.9 million tons, zinc at 250 million tons, and lead at 90 million tons. Global reserves of petroleum is estimated at 1.7 trillion barrels and natural gas 7.3 quadrillion cubic feet. In other words, the proven reserves of nonrenewable resources have not been depleted over the past 50 years, they have instead increased substantially.
In his insightful 2021 article in Mineral Economics, German geologist Friedrich-Wilhelm Wellmer explains that when markets signal that a mineral or metal is in short supply, companies develop new more efficient ways to exploit current reserves and seek to find new resources. Consequently, the supply horizon for most metals, minerals, and fuels remains always about 20 years out. In addition, efficiency innovations mean that most products and services use less and less of any specific resource over time. Wellmer offers a handy table comparing Limits' 1972 production data with 2020 data. Even as humanity produced more and more of those resources, the time horizon for the eventual depletion at current rates of consumption increased rather than shortened.

Of course, there have been steep recent increases in the prices of lots of nonrenewable resources lately. Is this a signal that the world is finally close to running out of resources? The International Monetary Fund's commodity index in real terms has more than doubled recently as the world's economies rebound from the pandemic's economic slowdown. The earlier increase was the result of the huge demand for resources as China's economy massively expanded at beginning of this century.

Wellmer does worry that commodity prices may stay at a permanently higher level for two reasons: The future raw materials demand associated with the accelerating green energy transition and ever higher costs stemming from the restraining requirements of the social license to operate.
It takes a lot of material to build solar panels, wind turbines, and batteries. Even so, Wellmer argues that these technologies will become increasingly sparing of materials as they evolve. As evidence, he points out that on a kilogram per megawatt (MW) basis that a 3.45 MW wind turbine today contains less than 15 percent less concrete, 50 percent less fiber glass, 50 percent less copper and 60 percent less aluminum than an earlier 2 MW turbine did. Material usage for constructing solar cells has dropped by 75 percent over the past 13 years.
In addition, meeting extensive environmental and regulatory requirements as well as responding to the demands of community stakeholders are raising the costs of mineral, metal, and fuel production. These costs will be reflected in the prices of these commodities.
Despite these new pressures, Wellmer sanguinely concludes: "Supply shortages have been forecast frequently in the past. They never actually happened. The self-regulating feedback control cycle of mineral supply safeguards adequate supply over time. There is no reason to assume that this system of self-correcting forecasts will not work in the future."
For her part, Herrington, unfazed by the past failures of the Limits model's projections, contrarily concludes that the two of her updated Limits scenarios that align most closely with the data she cites "indicate a halt in welfare, food, and industrial production over the next decade or so, which puts into question the suitability of continuous economic growth as humanity's goal in the twenty-first century."
If anyone is an unheeded Cassandra with respect to resource depletion prophecies, I am. Given its manifold predictive failures, I confidently expect to report back on the 60th anniversary of The Limits to Growth that it is still "as wrong-headed as it is possible to be." Happy Earth Day everyone!
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We all died from Covid because of a lack of testing.
Everybody died in the 80s from the global ice age.
As Fauci said at the time, everyone would get AIDS.
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The earth CANNOT sustain 5 billion people. We will all starve. 1987.
Stop it. The Science has never been wrong.
Obey.
Youre why we can't have nice things. Listen to Obama and stop spreading disinformation.
"TV is a tool. The internet is a tool. Social media is a tool. At the end of the day, tools don't control us. We control them. And we can remake them."
*this post sponsored by JFree.
I died from global cooling in the late '70's.
True Fact.
I died from all the Apocalyptic Death, War, Famine, and Pestilence predicted in The Book of Revelation and applied to modern times by Hal Lindsey's The Late, Great Planet Earth...
Until about age 15 when over the years, I stopped going to Church, stopped praying, stopped calling myself Christian, stopped taking the words of religious con-artists at face value, learned about Libertarianism, read about the Founding Fathers' Deism, read Ayn Rand works, read works on Philosophy, Logic and Reason, and eventually bought and read George H. Smith's Atheism:The Case Against God. Then, by age 22, to throw St. Paul's words back at him, finally "I gave up foolish things" and to throw Jeebus' words back at him, I was really "born again"." 🙂
And I'm here with you folks 32 years later, fighting the good fight against all forms of doom-and-doom humbuggery and tyranny over the mind of Man! No plans to end anytime soon!
"I'm not dead yet!..."--Plague Victim from Monty Python and The Holy Grail. 🙂
Obama is a tool.
It's funny because bailey praises the same retards in every other artical, but shows that the same people he promotes every other day have literally never been correct!
Way to go bailey, your doing the bang up job we expect from you. (not a compliment)
Lol. This was a week ago.
https://reason.com/2022/04/14/meeting-paris-agreement-pledges-likely-to-keep-warming-increase-below-2-c/
Yeah, how hard would it be to look at 30+ years of Climate Models and IPCC reports with the same verve
A few years ago he was actually skeptical.
Skeptics don't get invites to cocktail parties.
Skeptics don't get fat brown envelopes.
Or, in the case of Scientists!, 7 figure research grants.
Skeptics don’t get to have careers or social lives.
Maybe if they keep making shit up they will eventually be right?
There's a name for this that I forgot. It's when you read something in the news that you actually know and you can recognize how inaccurate the news story is, but then you'll completely trust the same news outlet on a story you don't know anything about.
Gell-Mann amnesia.
Democratic elitism?
Crap. I knew the answer to this one, too, but got beat out by Hey Skipper.
I'll just provide the full description...
“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.”
– Michael Crichton (1942-2008)
I had not heard of the Gell-Mann amnesia effect even though I've lived it. Thanks for enlightening me. I've watched as the media lied about things that I personally had lived. But it took me many years to finally understand that it lies about everything I don't have personal knowledge of as well. In the end I'm not sure I can trust my own reality because I don't have the time to verify everything that I might encounter in this life and even if I did I have no faith that the information I have access to is honest and unbiased. In the end I'm left to trust my instincts, experience and my own lying eyes. But I could be wrong.
Anybody else read the title of this article as being written by a space alien? "After 53 of your earth-days, puny human, we are going to destroy your planet!"
Their plan 9 is a doozy.
Quite possibly the fourth worst plan or reason to take over earth.
1: water being deathly toxic to touch (signs, night of the triffids, granted the triffids accidentally landed where signs was deliberate)
2: not checking for biological creatures that you aren't immune to (war of the world's)
3: taking over earth for the natural resources where building a fleet to get to and conquer the planet is more than is avaliable on the planet (independence day)
#3 Battlefield Earth in addition to being absolutely terrible has the most hilariously stupid aliens ever.
After occupying the earth for a thousand years to mine it for gold, they still haven’t discovered Fort Knox.
Or they have audited the Fed. 😎
That really would be science fiction!
Bah weep grah nah weep ninny bom?
The universal greeting.
I read that in Morbo’s voice (the news monster from Futurama).
It obstructs my view of Venus.
1989. Back when Bailey still questioned authority and was skeptical of impending doom scenarios.
Graphs?
*Triggered*
Holy cow, Ron, that is quite the essay. Thanks for all of your work on this.
Agreed, the article is pretty good.
People (including me) are piling on a bit wondering why the same level of skepticism doesn't inform his COVID and climate articles.
It's OK to debunk decades old falsities - no one cares. But today's virtue signals must be honored, regardless of how absurd (see trans women are women)
And yet somehow Cassandra Mann survives, and Bailey is his Prophet.
>>According to Bardi, the chief liar and distorter was me.
classic deflection.
Gotta keep 'em scared or they won't blindly obey.
Hello all,
I'm getting a bit tired of saying this, though we are not last place in math and science for a reason.... Literally, lack of historical assessment (very well covered in this article) combined with lack of critical thinking exacerbated by the hyper-response of social media for those who transgress has lead us down a slippery slope.
No objection is tolerated to High Priest Gore and Fauci, et al. So go ahead and put out your "In this house, We follow science...." signs on your lawns to assuage your guilt - and lack of scientific knowledge.
And let's pass college loan cancellation. For nothing more shall ensure our survival than to have millions of unemployable Social Justice Warrior-degreed fools chanting, "What do we want! Green Jobs! When do we want them? Now!"
Do enjoy your weekend,
John
They want Green jobs. Until they find out they involve climbing on the roof to fix solar panels.
Could there be a greener economy than 10th century Europe?
That's not a green job. A green job is staffing the federal bureaucracies that will enforce eco justice priorities, along with diversity, equity, and inclusion--plus Neo-Marxism.
There is only one green job I want is Green Lantern of sector 2814. Which is in,y found in fiction.
There's only one real limit to growth I would recognize. Maximum energy generating capacity. Yes, we can keep building more power plants. Problem is, at some point the heat generation from all the power will be greater than can be radiated into space. We'd literally be warming the globe. How much energy is that? I really don't know.
The amount of energy necessary to noticeably warm the planet directly by energy production is really, really huge. It's been more than twenty years and a hard drive loss of my old files since I did the actual calculations, but, really, really huge.
There's simply no energy-based limit to growth on any timescale short enough to be worth worrying about. Breeder nuclear reactors can produce so many more orders of magnitude more power than all fossil fuels combined (including quite plentiful coal), and the environmental effects of such energy production is so small, that planning for when those limits are reached centuries from now is utterly absurd. It's like Alexander Hamilton looking at the population growth rate of New York and worrying about how the city will manage to shovel all the horseshit off the streets come 2022.
I'd love to know that number. I agree we're not anywhere near that yet. It's just the only limit I recognize.
Might be a problem someday but I don't even know what millennium that would be.
All of humanity generates about 600 quads of energy in a year. That’s about equal to how much sunshine hits the planet in an hour. We are less than a drop in the bucket as far as energy balance is concerned.
Depending on your definition of progress, it's not as much of a problem vaporizing the Earth as it is not vaporizing the people.
More people still die of cold weather than hot weather.
Right. And we can always eject more energy/mass to escape velocity, it's just a question of how many people do we kill in the process. Too many and the progress stops.
Wha??
Not a direct ansower, but for a bit of perspective on this, I saw a calculation at https://wattsupwiththat.com/ that if we took all current energy production and deliberately allocated 100% of it to defrosting Antarctica it would still take 100s of thousands of years to completely melt the Antarctic ice sheet (estimated volume 30 million cubic kilometers).
DRM: The excrement needs to be shoveled, but in NYC and San Fran (LA?) it doesn’t come from horses.
They should just give SQRLSY a contract to get rid of it. He’ll gobble it all up, no problem.
if we embraced nuclear energy there would be no issues, but the mentally retarded greenes won't allow it.
There's only one real limit to growth I would recognize.
Population. If the Earth had 10B people on it right now it would be birthing more humans than it is right now. Even if it weren't growing faster relatively, it almost certainly wouldn't be shrinking faster to overcome the absolute rate of growth. The current and ongoing limit to growth is the population.
What limits the population growth?
Mostly nominally for now, the 9 mo. gestation cycle.
I guess single births too. Cut gestation to 3 mos., create an average litter size of 3... same difference.
Or are we trying to inject the vagueries of human behavior into our engineering discussion?
If so, widespread stupidity eclipses energy production or birth rates.
Speaking personally, every time ocasio-cortez, symone sanders, or liz warren open their mouths it's easy to never get near a woman again. I suspect their are more than a few voluntary celibates that drive down population growth. ZPG, amigos.
Wait, you actually listen to them? That seems like a mistake.
Wuflu "vaccine"?
Beer supply?
The facts that each new birth in the U.S. costs $450,000 from birth to age 18 on top of college expenses subsidized by student loans and that inflation doesn't stop, plus the female and now male versions of The Pill.
😉
communist birth policies
Still thinking too small.
Read "Life 3.0" by Max Tegmark. We can support far more people (or human consciousnesses uploaded to mechanical/electronic substrates) once we start harnessing power on a star system/galactic level.
"It is now well documented that fossil fuels are experiencing peak production now," they assert.
"See! We just noted it *again*!"
It helps if cap the oil wells.
And... *now!*... and *now!*... and... *now!*...
It keeps accumulating more documentation, as production continues to increase.
I've said it before, but it bears repeating: When I first heard of "Peak Oil," I thought it was a spiral-shaped catheter. Get it?... "Peak Oil?"..."Pea Coil?" 😉
Obviously, not "The Catheter That Hurts Less!"
I'm A Professional Cowboy And I Use Catheters
https://youtu.be/2soNIkzS0m4
hahahah, ahhhhh HAHAHAHAH
*mute button*
The climate change cult no longer cares whether there are enough resources or not. It’s all about capitalism is evil and humans are a cancer on the earth.
You would think people who view humans as a pestilence wouldn't have been so freaked out by COVID. I guess they make an exception for themselves.
Everyone thinks they will be the survivor.
It's not about climate change or environmentalism, and it really hasn't been for a long time...it's about socialist economic policy--redistribution of wealth. The leaders of the movement readily admit as much.
(OTTMAR EDENHOFER, UN IPCC OFFICIAL): "Basically it’s a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization. The climate summit in Cancun at the end of the month is not a climate conference, but one of the largest economic conferences since the Second World War... First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.
Christiana Figueres, leader of the U.N.’s Framework Convention on Climate Change: “This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model, for the first time in human history.”
Former U.S. Senator Timothy Wirth (D-CO), then representing the Clinton-Gore administration as U.S undersecretary of state for global issues, addressing the same Rio Climate Summit audience, agreed: “We have got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic policy and environmental policy.”
Christine Stewart, former Canadian Environment Minister: “No matter if the science is all phoney, there are collateral environmental benefits.... climate change [provides] the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world.”
Gus Hall, former leader of the Communist Party USA: "Human society cannot basically stop the destruction of the environment under capitalism. Socialism is the only structure that makes it possible."
Daphne Muller, green-progressive-liberal writer for Salon: "This moment requires we the people to rethink democracy as a global mechanism for enacting policy for and by the planet."
Peter Berle, President of the National Audubon Society: "We reject the idea of private property."
David Brower, a founder of the Sierra Club: "The goal now is a socialist, redistributionist society, which is nature's proper steward and society's only hope."
Mikhail Gorbachev, communist and former leader of U.S.S.R.: "The emerging 'environmentalization' of our civilization and the need for vigorous action in the interest of the entire global community will inevitably have multiple political consequences. Perhaps the most important of them will be a gradual change in the status of the United Nations. Inevitably, it must assume some aspects of a world government."
Emma Brindal, a climate justice campaigner coordinator for Friends of the Earth: “A climate change response must have at its heart a redistribution of wealth and resources.”
Monika Kopacz, atmospheric scientist: "It is no secret that a lot of climate-change research is subject to opinion, that climate models sometimes disagree even on the signs of the future changes (e.g. drier vs. wetter future climate). The problem is, only sensational exaggeration makes the kind of story that will get politicians’ — and readers’ — attention. So, yes, climate scientists might exaggerate, but in today’s world, this is the only way to assure any political action and thus more federal financing to reduce the scientific uncertainty."
Researcher Robert Phalen's 2010 testimony to the California Air Resources Board: "It benefits us personally to have the public be afraid, even if these risks are trivial."
Rep. Ocasio-Cortez’s chief of staff, Saikat Chakrabarti, made the revealing admission in a meeting with Democratic Washington Gov. Jay Inslee’s climate director in May. A Washington Post reporter accompanied Chakrabarti to the meeting for a magazine profile published Wednesday: “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal, is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all...Do you guys think of it as a climate thing? Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing,” he added.
And Twitter doubles down. Now banning anybody providing evidence against climate alarmist.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/twitter-to-ban-ads-that-contradict-authorities-on-climate-change
Go Elon, go!
There should be a grassroots effort take control of a number of these companies and purge them of all progressivism. Then they’ll be nothing.
liberals always believe the have the only truth when in fact they are the most destructive stupid people. the will censor other opinions until someone stops them. go elon.
"For example, the "peak oil" panic at the beginning of this century later morphed into a "peak everything" frenzy."
When do we hit peak stupid? Or Peak EVIL?
And... *now!*... and *now!*... and... *now!*...
Let me know when we reach peak derp.
Couple of fun 7/8 year old articles on Limits to Growth:
https://www.theregister.com/2014/09/07/the_club_of_romes_limits_to_growth_was_right_you_know/
https://www.theregister.com/2015/05/31/rare_metals_mineral_reserves_talk_preamble/
Dunno how many times some bone-head will claim 'Ehrlich was wrong in the particulars, but right in general'.
Well no. He was just plain WRONG.
Resources are finite, they will one day run out. But the stonage age did not end because we ran out of stone. Innovation will move us forward.
If we have the stonage to keep innovation free.
BTW: "Earth Day"
Uh, well, how about "Oxygen Day"? Do those who do not 'celebrate' Earth Day hate the earth?
The entire concept is duplicitous. It's an attempt to define the terms of the argument by innuendo, hinting that there is some existential problem requiring the attention sacrifices of humanity at large, and yet leaving it un-defined, allowing one huckster after the other to claim the mantle of he who would save the earth if only mankind would do as he says!
Makes me want to celebrate earth day by burning a lot of old tires in the back yard.
I do all my unwanted tree clearing on earth day. Then we have a bon fire, cook critters, and get lit.
The glaring fallacy of The Limits to Growth is asserting that "known reserves" of a commodity means the same as "total reserves". As Bailey points out, "known" (or "proven") reserves of oil, of metals, etc. will typically be enough to last about 20 years. But new reserves are constantly being found, so total "known" reserves don't actually get depleted. The authors of The Limits to Growth must have known this, you would think. If they did, then their conclusions were simply fraudulent. If they didn't, then they were incompetent.
Exactly! My Nephew buys into "Peak Oil" and I keep telling him: "It's made of dinosaurs and other living things being born and dying and their constituent elements sinking into the Earth under millions of years of heat and pressure until it becomes Petoleum! When stuff stops dying, then we'll have a problem!"
And how do "Peak Oilers" or "Peak Anythingists" know how much oil or anything else is inside the Earth? Extrapolation from surface samples? Ion Mass Spectometry through the entie Earth?? What the Hell, Man???
OH Earth Day..created by a little marxist bolshie hippie type who butchered his girlfriend and stuffed her body in a suitcase, ran to Sweden where some trust fund bunny took him in.
The whole thing was a joke from day one. Dumb liberal media types, mostly NYC Ivy League types from money.
"OH Earth Day..created by a little marxist bolshie hippie type who butchered his girlfriend and stuffed her body in a suitcase, ran to Sweden where some trust fund bunny took him in...."
OMG! Einhorn? Lemme look.
Yep:
"Earth Day Fun Fact: Co-Founder Murdered His Girlfriend, Stuffed Her in a Trunk, and Composted Her Body"
https://www.survivethenews.com/earth-day-fun-fact-co-founder-murdered-his-girlfriend-stuffed-her-in-a-trunk-and-composted-her-body/
Well, I stand behind the 8:48 comment, now with more ammo.
Ira Einhorn, The Unicorn Killer.
Remember CSICOP? First got their rag as a mimeographed news-letter sometime in the '70s. Once it gained enough income to produce slick publications and Kurtz began to whine that 'Korparations controlled the media!', they lost my donations, as has Reason.
Pretty sure it was one of the CSICOP writers who had a feud with him, blew the whistle sufficient to restart an investigation and caused his flight to nations which should have extradited the asshole.
Like turd, the Rev, Tony and others, the world would be now better off if they had been aborted.
Bad timing Ron— you should have run this two days ago. As is There must be great joy in Abilene, but not so much at Forbes, at the sight of you applauding the work of Lord Lawson and Koch Industries cartoonist, Josh.
https://vvattsupwiththat.blogspot.com/2022/04/watts-celebrating-earth-day-over-warm.html
The past is prologue: neither the implosion of the Population Bomb or the devolution of the energy Crisis into the Oil Glut can save those who make a living playing Doctor Pangloss from the painful reality of more people in less space extracting poorer resources at greater expense.
"The past is prologue: neither the implosion of the Population Bomb or the devolution of the energy Crisis into the Oil Glut can save those who make a living playing Doctor Pangloss from the painful reality of more people in less space extracting poorer resources at greater expense."
Care to render that in English as she is spoke?
Sure: "Neither the implosion of the Population Bomb or the devolution of the energy Crisis into the Oil Glut can save those who make a living playing Doctrix Pangloss from the painful reality of more people in less space extracting poorer resources at greater expense."
Pretty sure we agree, but 'playing Pangloss' says everything it good and the watermelons claim the opposite.
"Yes, we were dead wrong, but this time it's different!"
FAKE NEWS!!!
Sensitive people know we all died from starvation, global freezing, industrial collapse, pesticide poisoning, ozone depletion, biosphere extinction, global warming, COVID, and Neo-Nazi treason. Oh, and uncontrolled deadly hate speech.
Generally speaking, if the answer is "we have to blindly obey our unelected bureaucrats", the question is a made piece of bullshit.
That usually 8n dictates that it’s time to remove said leaders.
In the 1970s, I was engaged doing simulations using the FORTRAN language. I got a copy of the FORTRAN source of the Limits to Growth simulation. I found a major bug. When I fixed the bug, the model did not show the kind of collapse mentioned in the report.
I reported the bug to the authors of the report and showed them the correct predictions. No response.
I have some exposure to some of the models used by climate researchers at NOAA. I can tell you, the models are frequently ad hoc and contain numerous fudge factors and corrections to massage the data, throw out outliers, adjust that term during this time period, this term during that time period, etc. Further, many temperature measurements are based on proxies--e.g. assuming tree rings are wider during higher temperatures, but there's simply no way to determine how much wider per degree C.
I'm not saying that their models are wrong, just that, having implemented models like these before, I understand enough of the math to know that a minor mistake in a fudge factor meant to allow dissimilar measurements to be used as if they were from the same dataset can make a huge difference in the validity of the model. Not to mention simple errors in implementation that can have the results "look right" but still be completely wrong.
For example consider the story told by the data that turned out to be wrong.
In this case, the scientists found out that their ERSST model was producing warmer results, by about 0.2C, than other instruments. It turned out that in 2001, the satellite providing the data was boosted to a different orbit, and the model failed to take that into account. It took 10 years before anyone thought that there might be a problem! Up until then, everyone apparently assumed the earth had warmed by 0.2C suddenly in 2001. Worse, they assumed that the data for 1971-2000 was wrong and massaged it to fit the 2001+ data. "In early 2001, CPC was requested to implement the 1971–2000 normal for operational forecasts. So, we constructed a new SST normal for the 1971–2000 base period and implemented it operationally at CPC in August of 2001" (Journal of Climate).
Just the abstract to that particular paper reveals how fragile the models are, being based on assumptions piled on top of assumptions, and unveiling a tendency to massage data.
"SST predictions are usually issued in terms of anomalies and standardized anomalies relative to a 30-yr normal: climatological mean (CM) and standard deviation (SD). The World Meteorological Organization (WMO) suggests updating the 30-yr normal every 10 yr."
How can a normal be updated--the data is the data, and its normal is its normal? This sentence implies that the data is somehow massaged every ten years or so. There may be legitimate reasons to do so, but anytime you massage data, there have to be questions as to the legitmacy of the alteration.
"Using the extended reconstructed sea surface temperature (ERSST) on a 28 grid for 1854–2000 and the Hadley Centre Sea Ice and SST dataset (HadISST) on a 18 grid for 1870–1999, eleven 30-yr normals are calculated, and the interdecadal changes of seasonal CM, seasonal SD, and seasonal persistence (P) are discussed."
This says that data is being assembled from widely disparate data sources, with different measurement techniques, and that some of the data was made with instrumentation that simply cannot be validated (data from 1854?).
"Both PDO and NAO show a multidecadal oscillation that is consistent between ERSST and HadISST except that HadISST is biased toward warm in summer and cold in winter relative to ERSST."
Now we see that different data sets, ostensibly of the same population, disagree. And the fact that one data set exhibits bias to the extreme (too warm in summer and too cold in winter) raises questions about the proper use of this data. One scientist may be able to make a valid claim that the more stable data is in error and "correct" it to be more in line with the more volatile data; another scientist may do the opposite. And their personal bias will play a role as to which way they go.
With enough adjustable variables you can model an elephant.
With two data points, you can do the same; simply ignore any which don't show the elephant.
the bug was really a feature
I had a relative that was really all about peak oil and permaculture and urban farming.
Once during a visit we talked about all that and she was surprised to find that we had fruit trees, and gardens, and solar panels, and compost heaps...seems like my politics led her to believe I was not likely to be "green". But then there were the guns...
I explained to her that while she was planning for oil to run out eventually, we were trying to be prepared for oil to stop flowing suddenly, like tomorrow. What would society be like?
She said, in that case, just offer your surplus food to your neighbors, they'll be happy to help. I asked her what she thought would happen if the neighbors decided it was more work than they wanted to do. She persisted "Then they'll just have to realize that is what it will have to be like, everyone has to do their part, they'll understand that, and you've got a real nice setup here to provide for that."
I gave up.
She still has that Pollyanna outlook, so far as I know. But she never visited again.
Before Limits To Growth was published I took a course with the same name. Our manual was photocopied galley proofs of the yet to be published book. My criticism of the model at the time was its failure to recognize the impact of economics, particularly in that scarcity increases prices, which impacts demand. There are various solutions to scarcity: find new resources, e.g. fracking; substitute new resources, e.g. fluorite for cryolite in aluminum production; develop whole new technologies that no longer require the resource, e.g. LED lighting replacing the use of tungsten in light generation. Indeed, the increased price of automotive fuel has resulted in whole new technologies, like the Tesla, and driven changes that now have tripled or quadrupled mileage. Glass was the most common packaging material in 1972, it is now plastic, which is much less energy to manufacture and ship. Since 1972, the global economy has seen the addition of Russia and China, a vast expanse of land and natural resources.
Indeed, the biggest threat to cause shortages today are the actions of the green left who attack any attempt to mine or extract resources from the earth.
"...Indeed, the biggest threat to cause shortages today are the actions of the green left who attack any attempt to mine or extract resources from the earth."
Those and the tin-pot-dictator wannabes who 'planned' our economy over the past two years and have stuck us into the raging inflation/ruined supply chain mess from which we are now suffering.
We needed to innovate away from fossil fuels 50 years ago. Perhaps when we get to the point where we're not using governments to actively depress its price, we can talk about governments artificially increasing its cost for the express purpose of motivating innovation away from the thing that is currently destroying the habitability of the planet.
So basically, you and your friends deciding for everyone else. Nah. Instead the rest of us ought to dispose of you and your friends.
So much easier.
One prediction made that actually came true: we would run out of mine-able cryolite (used in aluminum production) by 1987. Their prediction was that it would stop aluminum production. You probably didn't notice. The industry switched to fluorite, a much more common and cheaper ore, and turned it into cryolite. When you add in recycling, their doesn't appear to be an end in sight for that resource.
When you add in recycling, their doesn't appear to be an end in sight for that resource.
Let's not extrapolate this observation to anything else on the planet, that would be unfair.
the green environmental movement is really just an anti-growth movement. they are not serious people. if they were serious they'd support nuclear energy.
I have gone back and forth on nuclear over the years. It has definite pros compared to fossil fuel power plants (especially coal). It also gets a lot of fearmongering over safety. (Yes, there was that one massive disaster that left a whole city uninhabitable for at least another few decades, but, even including that, it has a far superior safety record to any fossil fuel source when you consider the number of people's health harmed.) The main thing though, is that it is still quite expensive and possible developments and improvements in technology don't seem likely to make it less so.
This review of the issues from a physicist seems to take a reasonably balanced analysis of the pros and cons of nuclear as a "green" energy solution.
Keep in mind when you read ANYTHING posted by this pile of shit that he advocates murder as a preventative measure if a person might, at some later date, do something the asshole doesn't like:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?”
The great thing about these panglossian libertarian "the laws of physics are bunk" arguments is that, when society actually does collapse, there won't be magazines for people to write articles about it in.
these panglossian libertarian "the laws of physics are bunk" arguments
This nonsensical (and easily disproven, if we give it the respect it doesn't deserve) statement and the assorted "genocide!" binges Tony-bot is on, I think are the nadir of Tonydom.
Reason editors: please retire this intern. He has utterly failed his prime directive.
I just don't want you to be surprised when they go from publicly humiliating trans people from the floor of Congress to putting them in camps. These things have a natural progression unless you imprison their leaders and ban their political party.
Uh huh. I'm sure we're going to look back in ten years and mourn our lack of of foresight while watching the last of the ladyboys starve to death in Ft Lauderdale.
Though I suppose it is nice that you're making the political suppression of half the country an explicit prerequisite to an acceptable society. Leftist totalitarianism has yet to produce any material downsides, as history has long shown.
Though I suppose it is nice that you're making the political suppression of half the country an explicit prerequisite to an acceptable society.
One of many problems with the Republican Party of the moment is how its partisan voters seem to think that they make up half of the country and that their half is the "real America". Neither party has spent much time above 50% approval over the last two decades (favorable vs unfavorable ratings), Donald Trump won the GOP nomination in 2016 with 44.9% of the primary vote. That is, 14 million Republicans wanted him, but more wanted someone else, and those 14 million votes were about 10% of the total number of votes cast in the general election.
Put five people in a room and you'll get at least six different opinions on any given political topic. But people have this subconscious need to feel like everyone agrees with them, so they inflate the level of agreement. Faced with evidence that they aren't in the majority on a particular issue, well, then the real, patriotic Americans agree with them. Or, the "fake news" media is biased against their view, that is why they don't get as much support in polls or the ballot box. Or, there was massive fraud, or it would be obvious that their side won in a landslide. Or, "democracy" is just code for tyranny of the majority anyway, so gerrymandering and changing voting procedures in ways that target the voters of the opposing side* with surgical precision is just necessary to protect their rights.
I certainly don't agree with Tony on the implication that the Republican Party is so far gone that it would justify "imprison[ing] their leaders and ban[ning] their political party", but the issue, to me, is that the Republican Party is being run by its most fervent, extreme supporters rather than trying to build solid, majority support. It's supposed to be hard to build such a governing majority, especially in the U.S. where government power at the state and federal level is separated into different branches. (And even local governments usually have a similar amount of separation, unless it is a fairly small jurisdiction.) But combine the groupthink and populism with political ambition and cults of personality and you get a total erosion of the institutions that are supposed to prevent unilateral decision making on major issues.
The controversy over Disney's special district is a prime example. The laws and policies at issue are complex, and transferring all of those functions back to local governments from the special district is a process that would take multiple years, in order to be done without total chaos. Yet Gov. Ron DeSantis essentially cowed the legislature into passing the law in a few days without any input from the local governments or residents affected by the decision, making it effective in July of next year.
(Hey, nice special district you have there. You have one year to change your tune and convince us (me) that you'll say only what I want you to say about LGBT issues if you want to keep it. Oh, and going back on your pledge not to donate to us (me) any more would help as well. Make checks out to Friends of Ron DeSantis. We (I) appreciated the $100,000 you donated over the previous two years. See how we (I) exempted you from that anti-Big Tech law we (I) passed? That's the kind of public-private relationship we (I) want to have.)
*and it's just coincidental if they tend to have different amounts of melanin in their skin than those that tend to vote for their side
Keep in mind when you read ANYTHING posted by this pile of shit that he advocates murder as a preventative measure if a person might, at some later date, do something the asshole doesn't like:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?”
"
"
One of many problems with the Republican Party of the moment is how its partisan voters seem to think that they make up half of the country and that their half is the "real America".
The point still stands even if you downgrade the majors' share to the 25-30% that are actual party members instead of including that aligned independents that also regularly vote for them. Tony's idiocy needs to be called out for what it is.
the issue, to me, is that the Republican Party is being run by its most fervent, extreme supporters rather than trying to build solid, majority support.
Not to be that guy, but it's impossible not to scream "bowf sidez" at this. Biden was elected as a centrist and has governed as if AOC has a red line to the resolute desk.
The parties reflect the voters. There's tremendous polarization in the former because there's tremendous polarization in the latter. Paradoxically, one way to correct this is to make the parties themselves stronger.
and it's just coincidental if they tend to have different amounts of melanin in their skin than those that tend to vote for their side
Insofar as GOP partisans express hostility towards certain minorities as a group, it's more a reflection of those groups' voting patterns than racial bigotry. There's been research in the past which shows exactly this, you could have noticed at as various Jewish subgroups moved into the GOP, and you can watch this dynamic evolving on the other side as certain Hispanics divorce their interests from the Democratic Party.
"...Tony's idiocy needs to be called out for what it is..."
Being entirely too stupid to realize how stupid he is, it won't help shitbag in the least.
You know, they way we routinely did until about 15 years ago.
The physics and chemistry aren't in question.
The statistics and data interpretation are.
Science depends on theories, experiments, and evidence.
It does not run by "consensus".
As Albert Einstein replied when 100 German scientists wrote a book attacking his theory of relativity: "If I was wrong they would only need one scientist."
And if most of your predictions turn out wrong for several decades, maybe your theory needs a little more tweaking.
Where’s Julian Simon when you need him?
Howling in laughter at Ehrlich.
Hello, Mr. Bailey. Nice to read this article, and thanks for citing my work. It is remarkable how large the impact of "The Limits to Growth" story was if we are still discussing it 50 (53 Earth days) later. One of these days we should have a chat together on this subject -- who knows? We might even agree at least on something!!
Anyway, you may be interested to know that a new book titled "Beyond the Limits" is being published by the Club of Rome. It is a multi-author book (myself and Carlos Alvarez Pereira are the editors) that reviews the many facets of the LTG study. Ms. Gaya Herrington is also one of the authors.
And thanks again for your interest!