Department of Education Prepares Rules Prohibiting School Discrimination Against Gay and Trans Students
It’s about a lot more than transgender girls’ participation in sports under Title IX, but expect that controversy to dominate the discussion.

The Department of Education is about to release new rules clarifying that Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 protects students from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity, not just discrimination on the basis of whether they are male or female.
The Washington Post reported Wednesday that the formal regulation will likely be released in April and will undoubtedly toss gasoline on the current conflict over how to treat transgender girls who wish to compete against cisgender girls in youth sports.
It seemed nearly inevitable that these regulations would come after the Supreme Court ruled in 2020 that federal workplace discrimination protection laws covered LGBT employees. In the 6–3 ruling in Bostock v. Clayton County, written by Justice Neil Gorsuch, the majority ruled that the word sex in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964—which prohibits workplace discrimination for categories like race, sex, national origin, or religion—also protects people from discrimination on the basis of being gay or trans.
"An employer who fires an individual for being homosexual or transgender fires that person for traits or actions it would not have questioned in members of a different sex," Gorsuch wrote in the decision. "Sex plays a necessary and undisguisable role in the decision, exactly what Title VII forbids."
At the time the Supreme Court debated Bostock, justices were well aware that a decision about what sex discrimination meant was going to end up affecting how other federal laws are interpreted. In his dissent in Bostock, Justice Samuel Alito warned that the issue would come up again over participation in women's sports: "The effect of the Court's reasoning may be to force young women to compete against students who have a very significant biological advantage, including students who have the size and strength of a male but identify as female and students who are taking male hormones in order to transition from female to male."
There's a lot more to an anti-discrimination order than participation in women's sports, but that's where the culture war is right now and we should expect that to get more attention than anything else. It may drown out other discussions, including the part of the order that's probably uncontroversial to most people—that public schools generally shouldn't be discriminating against LGBT students in other areas or treating them differently from other students. As it stands, the Department of Education already revised its interpretation of Title IX in 2021 to say that schools receiving federal funding cannot discriminate against gay or trans students.
The trans sports debate might also end up drowning out discussion of changes that might undermine due process protections for students accused of harassment or sexual misconduct. According to The Washington Post, the Biden administration is looking to ease rules put into place under former Education Secretary Betsy DeVos that pushed for the schools to recognize the presumption of innocence for those accused of misconduct.
A reversal here is bad news. Public universities have consistently been violating the due process rights of students who have been accused of sexual misconduct, depriving them of defenses and the ability to confront accusers. Courts have been slapping down some of the bad practices that were encouraged by the Department of Education under former President Barack Obama.
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The Department of Education is about to release new rules clarifying that Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 protects students from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity
Whew! That takes the pressure off having to define "woman"!
Yeah, mainly because the 1972 ruling was based on sex and the addition of gender identity to the mix is recent, not in the initial settlement.
The new inclusion excludes.
We separated men's and women's sports for reasons of biology that are well understood. In wokeville, however, we will now have to have a Female Division and a Tranny Division within women's sports. Everyone gets a frickin trophy.
Technically, if you treat biological males as males, and biological females as females, regardless of what 'gender' they claim to be, you're not discriminating on the basis of gender. You're ignoring 'gender'.
When the Title IX lawsuits say "Hold my beer".
You thought completely destroying the rules of law for 51% of the population over 49%? Just watch while they do the same thing to 99.7% of the population over 0.3% and watch the flames grow!
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https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1509571511270752273?t=ItdYP003XZ8EpLSOYH0C2g&s=19
POLL: 65% of voters are concerned with how Jackson's judgement in child pornography cases - Rasmussen
Yeah, the two months for someone caught trying to convince another person to create child porn, so they could distribute it. Is really fucked up. It's not one of those situations where the law is overly harsh compared to the crime, or it's more complicated if you look at it deeper.
She demonstrated incrediably poor judgement in these cases, and showed a willingness to ignore the facts of the case in front of her.
Even if that's true (which I doubt) it's irrelevant.
Koch / Reason libertarianism isn't about appealing to 65% of voters. It's about making life better for the top 30 or so richest people in the country, like Reason.com's benefactor Charles Koch. And the ultra-wealthy demand a soft-on-crime #FreeTheCriminals and #EmptyThePrisons approach.
#CheapLaborAboveAll
"Koch/Reason libertarianism isn't about appealing to 65% of voters. It's about making life better for the top 30 or so richest people in the country"
True story.
I've been saying for the last decade that, for Reason writers, libertarianism is a way of posturing as a contrarian, but also signaling that you’re socially left and totally down with the way that sex and drugs works for America's wealthy, upper-middle-class elite. If that includes groomer books and child-fucking so be it.
Well, that's a painfully accurate picture of things...
So apparently the biden wh in conjunction with the KBJ withheld some of her more egregious child lorn cases from being seen by the senate judicial committee.
So it was more cases than the ones Hawley brought to attention.
https://twitter.com/realchrisrufo/status/1508934581092765700?t=jkSunqosQy0-oXZqGNpfXA&s=19
SCOOP: Disney production coordinator Allen March says his team is committed to "exploring queer stories" and has created a "tracker" to make sure they are creating enough "gender nonconforming characters," "canonical trans characters," and "canonical bisexual characters."
[Video]
"canonical trans characters," and "canonical bisexual characters."
One surmises "canonical queer character" is an oxymoron.
Nothing means anything anymore.
This won't end until Disney is creating trans-species pansexual characters.
Remember, NOBODY wants to sexualize children. It is silly to think so.
they're a private company
running afoul of sexual predator laws is just work for Legal
Disney employees already get busted for that stuff all the time
Marketing will deal with those Neanderthal parents who don't want their impressionable kids groomed by woke corporations
Netflix was allowed to make Cuties without consequence and that involved actual girls being exploited, just imagine what they'll do with mere CGI
"Netflix was allowed to make Cuties without consequence and that involved actual girls being exploited"
But Reason swore the lewd scenes of children pole dancing were only there to show us how wrong it is. Apparently it was actually a morality lesson or something, something.
As I said elsewhere, that logic would require you to torture puppies in making a movie about how torturing puppies is bad.
So you have not seen Red Panda?
No, and I won't be.
Pandas are from China, right? The last thing Disney did right in China was in the '30s when Walt Disney created the Flying Tigers emblem.
Turning Red was fundamentally a culture clash/coming of age story, where the Chinese culture of saving face was the primary antagonist. The golden child rebelled from the perfect life her parents wanted, and the tighter they held onto her, the more she ripped away.
There was nothing indecent about it, and the "sexuality" was purely in the category of standard schoolgirl crushes. The "subtext" was purely in the purient imagination of horrid reviewers.
You, umm, never read the directors statements on it have you? It was a story about a girl getting her period.
Wasn't that movie celebrated as being the first all women made movie or something?
Isn't that what joj sinewa says she is?
Goodbye women's sports, congratulations Shackford, you and the rest of the evil marxist LGBTP+ have guaranteed there is just a second team of men LARPing as women when convient or profitable. This action is what true misogyny looks like, from the reduced opportunities to the increased risk of injury just to appease the feels of a few nutters.
Will they still get paid less?
This guy gets it
Yeah, seems like if Title IX is relevant here it should forbid boys who want to be girls from competing against girls.
I'm not opposed to generally being tolerant and reasonably accommodating to trans people. But actual women are still a thing, and they are being thrown under the bus on this. And the reasons for separate women's sports leagues existing are still valid and haven't changed.
"actual women", check out Rumpelstiltskin over here. The world has changed since 930 this morning! KEEP UP!
Women's sports leagues, not being educational institutions, won't be affected. Meanwhile if schools want to have sports competition, why do they have categories for males and females, instead of competition by class? Separate them by ability, not sex.
Girls who aren't "chicks with dicks" will eventually realize they can stop this by refusing to get in the starting blocks against trannies (yeah, I know they don't like the term, tough shit}. Until they do this the circle jerk will continue.
The best way to end this stupidity is to embrace it and push it forward as fast as you can. William "Lia" Thomson was ranked in the 400's in men's swimming. We should be suggesting men higher ranked decide they are women and dominate women's sports. What do you think will happen when no actual women are in women's sports?
That would be interesting if a group of male swimmers did exactly that to pile on, not for their own benefit, but to push the issue to the extreme and let inevitability stare the SJWs in the face.
Bingo.
It’s an exercise of slowly erasing women from women’s sports. A man is on the top podium while the women who should be there are literally standing beneath him, while everyone celebrates a man as The Best Woman™️.
Outside of the actions of select serial killers, this is the most misogynistic thing to take place in my lifetime, and it’s being codified into law and upheld as true and just by the top organizations in the sports world.
https://twitter.com/MaryMargOlohan/status/1509560092412231686?t=_zY2l3mKMK38RQ4qHLkNfQ&s=19
NEW: White House messaging released today says that "early" transgender surgeries, hormone treatment, and affirmations are "crucial" for the health of kids and teens who identify as transgender.
[Link]
They misspelled “cruel”.
This is why Biden picked a transsexual as a (eye roll) 4-star admiral in the Public Health Service.
because it virtually guarantees they will vote Democrat forever
grooming all the way down
Not a particularly astute demographic move when you pander to miniscule portion of 1% of a population at the expense of the majority of the same population that has female children.
The Department of Education is about to release new rules clarifying that Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 protects students from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity, not just discrimination on the basis of whether they are male or female.
These rules will clarify that the text of Title IX does not mean what it clearly says. And we will have yet another pile of unconstitutional gibberish bestowing a new set of privileges to an in-favor group. And a new racket for grievance grifters.
"It’s about a lot more than transgender girls’ participation in sports"
Ugh. People still have a problem with this? In 2022? Even after Lia Thomas — whose victory was entirely the result of practicing harder than those other women?
I have to say, I'm especially disappointed in ciswomen. They need to speak with a unified voice insisting "We welcome our transgender sisters and their ladydicks into all our female-only spaces, including sports, bathrooms, locker rooms, and prisons."
#TransWomenAreWomen
That you can unironically stay in character consitently is noteworthy. Ever thought of giving Tony Toejam lessons?
Oh, I dunno... sometimes the veneer on the snark is awful thin... But OBL is generally an excellent piece of work. 😀
It’s about a lot more than transgender girls’ participation in sports under Title IX, but expect that controversy to dominate the discussion.
Then take that part out, instead of insisting that everybody join in the delusion.
What I said, essentially, in far fewer words.
I like this. True meritocracy in sports. Biomales get all the top spots, biofemales no more sports (except those biomales dont want to play). Since any one can identify as anything, then seperating people by gender no longer means anything.
Those who are not good at sports can compete against others who are not good at sports. Competition by class, not sex.
So you want chicks to be forced to play with fat nerds? In my experience playing co rec ball with gals I doubt this would fly.
The trans in women's sports issue is overshadowing everything else because allowing males to compete in female sports divisions destroys the rationale of there being female sports divisions, which is to have a space where female athletes can compete against people at the same level. Female sports divisions are inherently discriminatory.
The question is are they discriminatory on an objective criteria like sex that has inherent physiological differences or on a subjective criteria like gender identity which does not.
If it is overshadowing other objectionable things the Biden Adminstration is doing with regards to Title IX it is because of the obvious irrationality of the women's sports issue, even to the normally apathetic portion of the population.
Under their rationale - no more weight classes for martial sports - wrestling, boxing, MMA, etc.
No more chess ranking.
Weight classes are a good comparison. There's nothing wrong with allowing people to voluntarily compete above their weight class. There is a lot wrong with allowing people to decide they are going to compete in a lower weight class. Even if a heavy weight wants to identify as a bantam weight.
Why can't female athletes just compete against people at the same level, regardless of their sex? If they run slower, make divisions for slower and slower people, etc. It's how competition is arranged in many sports, such as bowling.
Because some women want the opportunity to be the best at some athletic endeavor and that won't happen unless they are only competing against other women. I don't think that top female athletes would be very satisfied with a victory against third tier high school boys.
Otherwise I don't see any problem with your scheme.
So let them compete as clubs outside the school.
Oh so segregate them to unofficial leagues, where they are unlikely to get scouted, so we can let a small number of biological males dominate the official leagues?
And somehow, this is not The Patriarchy.
Realistically speaking, even the best female athletes won’t hold a candle to third tier boys.
That’s exactly what “Lia” Thomas was before he decided to swim as a woman, and then dominated the women’s circuit.
I think you put your finger on something there. "Progressives" don't get that some "discrimination" is . . . fair. There're men and women. There're U.S. citizens and foreigners. There're the law-abiding and the criminals. The government should treat them differently. (For example, it shouldn't let women into the military.) And, of course, when it comes to private entities, all "anti-discrimination" laws should be scrapped.
It may drown out other discussions, including the part of the order that's probably uncontroversial to most people—that public schools generally shouldn't be discriminating against LGBT students in other areas or treating them differently from other students.
Here's evidence that Scott Shackford might literally have been born yesterday. For some reason he thinks it's weird that the point everyone will agree with doesn't get talked about while the major point of contention gets the focus. As if people can have a lengthy and informative conversation about ideas we all know and understand and agree with. This is why people don't want to have long conversations about racism-we all agree it's bad and if you force us to talk about it beyond that, it's like an accusation.
Moreover if you try to pass a bill that 99% is perfectly good, agreeable stuff, and 1% of it is horrible policy, then nobody is going to argue about the good stuff, they're going to be upset about the horrible policy. That's rational, reasonable, and expected. We would ask why we can't just have the good stuff without the destructive stuff added in. Same with this-why do we need the controversial shit packaged in with the uncontroversial shit? (I ask this almost every time there's a criminal justice reform bill, but I know the answer-it's because we can't risk actually making progress on that because Democrats would lose a major plank of their platform).
Grow up, Scott. We don't need lectures about how it's mostly good stuff that we need when there's legitimate problems with it that should be ironed out.
But Scott needs a beard to explain how his support for the bad stuff is really just support for the good stuff and he's totally neutral on the bad, trust him.
It is his move. Everyone needs a move and insultingly transparent mendacity is his.
Insultingly transparent mendacity is a good band name. Also, accurate.
"But... could I get the 5 gallon bucket of ice cream without the tablespoon of hobo shit in it?"
"WHY AREN'T YOU HAPPY WITH ALL OF THE ICE CREAM YOU'RE GETTING?!? WHY DO YOU HAVE TO FOCUS ON THE TINY LITTLE PIECE OF VAGRANT SCAT?!?"
Do any of you really believe that government should be allowed to discriminate against people based upon innate characteristics?
No. Now define "innate".
Mental illness is somewhat innate. But yo answwr the original question no. But I also don't think government should force people to participate in delusions.
I will also tell the anorexic teenager she isn't fat and should eat something.
By that standard, women's sports should be illegal. The intent is to disallow men from participating, either by exclusion by sex or by gender identity. If women's sports does not discriminate, then there is no reason for it to exist as a category.
No, we do not.
That is, thankfully, not the issue here though.
Which part do you consider innate? The XX/XY chromosome pairs, or the delusion?
Plight? Quite?
Yes. Government schools should be allowed to have female sports teams/leagues. That is discrimination based on innate characteristics. It's discrimination that generally benefits women, but still discrimination.
Why not cut to the chase and just forbid all discrimination which is not strictly related to job performance? Then let the courts squabble of what that means. Better than larding up the law with every letter of the alphabet.
So, one basketball team per school, one baseball team, one volleyball team, open to all. That seems fair, but a lot of parents won't be happy about the lost athletic scholarship opportunities for their daughters.
They should be happy to sacrifice for the greater good.
It's only evil white privileged people who get these opportunities anyway.
"Nobody saw it coming, but in 2027, the WNBA quietly rebranded itself as the White NBA, since it was the only place they were good enough to play."
Don't be silly. Separate men and women teams is certainly reasonable. What the courts would decide about trannies I cannot predict.
Regardless of what one thinks of these regulations, we all should be asking how an unelected bureaucracy can be constantly 'reinterpreting' a 1972 law.
Slouching toward dictatorship.
So the 1972 law now means what it clearly did not mean in 1972.
Who needs a living Constitution when the laws themselves have life?
Gorsuch did make a convincing argument that the letter of the law stipulated more than the lawmakers intended at the time, and we should follow the letter of the law when it comes to discrimination in the workplace. I'm not sure that translates easily to Title 9, where the law was written to allow females to participate in sports without having to compete with males.
Gorsuch did make a convincing argument that the letter of the law stipulated more than the lawmakers intended at the time,
No he didn't. Gorsuch insulted the readers' intelligence by pretending a law that was designed to prevent discrimination based on sex meant that had a statutory right to wear womenswear to work. That decision was insane and shows the complete intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the right libertarian legal establishment.
Title IX has nothing to do with sports. The fact that they applied it to sports was already a dishonest reinterpretation of the text as written.
Isn't it supposed to be about actual, y'know, educational opportunities?
get the government out of the education business. Problem solved.
nobody ever listens to us about closing the conformity factories.
Men are going to be allowed to ruin women's sports but anyone who has a problem with that is just engaged in the "culture war". "Culture War" is reasonoid for "something that we like but is a complete loser with all but the fully insane left".
"Culture Wars" are socially progressive policies that conservatives are being annoying about by noticing and objecting.
Notice that Shackford doesn't bother to explain or defend it. He just dismisses it as a "culture war" because apparently that makes it unimportant.
It is a bad and condescending habit of Reason adjacent libertarian pundits. They dismiss as "culture war" any progressive offensive that conservatives are objecting to that they do not really want to deal with. Often they propose "solutions" to the issue that have almost no chance of becoming reality, because only a tiny minority support it (like school choice eliminating government schools) rather than directly deal with the issue.
You see the ranger of that line of thinking when people like White Mike or Jeff show up to crow about how horrible Republicans and right leaning libertarians are for fighting back against progressives bullshit.
When was the last time you gave a singly fuck about women's sports? Stop being led around by the FOX News leash. Have opinions you came up with yourself. You're being used like a Republican fleshlight.
Maybe we don't need sex-segregated sports anymore. Maybe they're just not that important.
Not everyone here is an incel like you Tony. Some of us have kids and actually do care about girls sports. But you're a piece of shit who only cares about themselves.
No you don't. You're being instructed to care by self-interested politicians and their media mouthpieces.
This world has real problems, and you're allowing yourself to put this infinitesimally minor issue at front of mind.
Read Republican propaganda all you want. I do. But for God's sake stop letting it do your thinking for you.
"You're being instructed to care by self-interested politicians and their media mouthpieces."
That's pretty ironic coming from a fifty-centing, piece-of-shit shill like you. I've never seen you formulate an opinion that you didn't first get from an ActBlue pdf.
No, you are getting your marching orders and talking points and trying to berate people into accepting your viewpoints by accusing them of exactly what you're doing. And saying this is all Tucker Carlson is just a bullshit ad hominem. I don't even watch fucking Fox News and it matters to me. That is a bullshit, throwaway argument no different than calling everyone who disagrees with you racist, homophobic etc. It's meant to attack the poster rather than what they say, and dismiss their opinions as meaningless because they are the same as someone else's who you consider unworthy. What it really shows is you can't defend your position so you have to resort to puerile arguments rather than substantiative debate. It shows you are shallow and incapable of holding an adult conversation and instead prefer to belittle anyone who disagrees with you and those you consider unworthy of having an opinion.
I'm telling you, it doesn't matter to you. Not unless you have a trans child.
If you don't have a trans child, why don't you butt out of other people's business? You do realize that you're advocating for governments to inspect children's genitals before they can play sports, yes?
All I'm doing is expressing a libertarian position that government should not do that.
You do realize that you're advocating for governments to inspect children's genitals before they can play sports, yes?
You do realize that sports are currently sex-segregated, right?
And who does the segregating? Don't the children just show up to play?
If you're telling me that school or government officials have been doing genital inspections this whole time, then yes, I think children's sports should be a thing of the past.
You really are this stupid. Wow.
You don't need a genital inspection to tell that Lia Thomas is not a biological female.
You are right to the extent that it doesn't matter if no one notices. When it comes to bathrooms and stuff I've always said that people should do what they can get away with. If you can pass as a woman, use the ladies room and no one will notice or care. But people damn well notice when a male athlete decides he's a girl now and beats the hell out of everyone. This really isn't such a difficult thing to wrap your head around.
You don't need a genital inspection to tell that Lia Thomas is not a biological female.
^
Really, one merely need look for the Adam's apple. It's the dead giveaway.
I agree that there are commonsense solutions to all of these problems. If large numbers of trans girls start dominating all sports, I doubt that even the wokest of teachers will just let it go forever. There will be pragmatic solutions.
Let's just not set our hair on fire and vote for fascists because we blew something out of proportion. Every time we do that, it's bad.
There will be pragmatic solutions.
What there will be is a backlash.
And here we see Tony try to act like the people who want to force you to accept their delusions aren’t the fucking fascists.
There is no segregation imposed on the playgrounds during recess. But if you observe you will see the girls naturally prefer playing with girls and boys with boys, with some rare exceptions. I asked my daughter, during basketball season, why she and her friends didn't play basketball during recess, and her answer was 'the boys always get the court first, and it's no fun playing with boys because they always win and hog the ball'.
And who does the segregating? Don't the children just show up to play?
In any context having to do with the current discussion? No. They are very definitely separated by gender.
But do you know what? You don't actually have to inspect a kids genitals to know what gender they are. Those of us who have been involved in kids' sports knew that already.
But a child might object to your judgment. What then?
Look, I will never be anywhere near a child sports match probably for the rest of my life. But this is a problem you have concocted for yourself, so I suggest you come up with a solution that treats everyone fairly and with dignity. If you can't do that, then stop yapping and let progressives give it a shot.
But a child might object to your judgment. What then?
They might also object to being deemed unfit for the team because they don't play well. In parenting we call those "teachable moments," this particular one being "you don't always get what you want just because you want it."
But this is a problem you have concocted for yourself
I made those poor progressives force girls teams to take boys who identify as girls?
If you can't do that, then stop yapping and let progressives give it a shot.
What we have now is what progressives "taking a shot" looks like.
Tony thinks Progressives should be shot. Noted.
First sensible thing he's ever said.
So you think trans children have Dominion over everyone else? Fuck off.
I don't think trans children should employ government to inspect other people's genitals either.
The fact you think it requires the inspection of genetelia says more about your perversions than it does about anything else. Your sex doesn't change. It's innate. it's simple, you play as the biological sex you were born with.
The number of intersex births are so small that mentioning them is pure distraction (0.018%). Less than 2 per 10,000 in other words. In the US there are approximately 3.6 million births a year, out of that less than 720 will be intersex. There are 97,000 plus public schools alone in the US, So, even if we discount private schools in the equation, a public school has a 0.7% chance of having an intersex child in a grade level. It goes even lower if we add in the approximately 35,000 private schools in the US. And I rounded conservatively, so the percentage is actually smaller than those that I listed.
I have a biological female so yes it does matter to me, because I don't want her injured playing biological males and I want her to enjoy sports, as she does now, not grow disillusioned playing against biological males.
Because it's my business as well as a parent of a biological cis female child. It isn't just parents of trans kids that are impacted by this, but the females who have to play against them. Fuck are you that fucking stupid?
Can we compromise and let individual sports leagues come up with their own solutions?
It's only Republicans who are passing any laws about this, and anyone with half a brain can see the cynicism and mean-spiritedness of it all.
No, because title IX is the law, and the law plainly states there is male and female sports, and schools have to offer female sports. It's Biden and the Federal government trying to reinterpret federal law to change the law, taking it away from the individual sports leagues or states to decide. It's the trans activist that sue and picketed first to force states to change sports to pander to their wishes. The Republican governors' actions were in response not the catalyst of this controversy. Like so many things, the progressives try to force everyone to live by their rules, and once conservatives react, the progressives blame the conservatives for making it an issue. It's pure deflection and a tactic the left has used as long as I've been on this Earth. And frankly, I am tired of this disingenuous tactic by the left.
Just take a minute to examine what you mean by "force everyone to live by their rules."
Sure, both sides want this. That's called politics and policy. Everyone wants everyone else to live by their rules, whatever they are.
What you object to is being "forced" to live in a world where trans people exist visibly and can participate in society.
Progressives don't have all the right answers all at once, I assure you. But you don't have a good answer for a trans child who wants to play sports. Are they all supposed to forego sports forever?
If this is actually a problem, and I really don't think it is stacked up against all the other problems, then that means it needs a solution, and all you're doing is whining.
Are they all supposed to forego sports forever?
Why can't they play on the teams that match the genders "assigned to them at birth?"
Maybe because a M2F swimmer doesn't want her tits out. I don't know. I don't care.
I just want people to be maximally free, but I don't think that includes the freedom to treat minorities like shit.
I just want people to be maximally free
What about the women who trained their whole life for that competition? Fuck them?
I bet there’s no rule that you have to wear a Speedo to compete in male races.
And yes Tony, telling my daughters they have to compete against a biological male is forcing them to live by their rules. I’m not surprised that you don’t see your own sides fascism though.
No. Because assholes like you put bullshit appearances over safety. We already have reports of women getting seriously injured in woke sports including ultimate fighting. Injuries such as shattered orbital bones.
Okay well if you won't sensibly compromise, I suppose that means you must be destroyed.
Remember, we control the libraries.
We alreay have sensibly compromised. Separation based on sex dummy.
It's only Republicans who are passing any laws about this
He says in response to an article about the latest laws coming from Democrats on this.
Tony’s not stupid, he’s just a fucking misogynist.
Yes I do have a daughter very active in sports. At a young age it is fine. She already knows it will change as she gets older. One of the sports is gymnastics where the sees determine events.
Youre a piece of shit though tony, so facts don't matter to you.
Sexes determine*
And it's not just stuff like that. There's an LPGA event this weekend, a major, with a $5 million purse. That's $750,000 to the winner.
Should we just ignore that it's a women-only event and let men come in and compete? It would take a ridiculous hot weekend for any ladies to make the cut, much less have a chance at that. There's actual money and interest in these things, and I plan on watching a bit of it later because there should be a tight, competitive field.
I'd be much less interested if any man on the PGA tour could just declare himself eligible, go in, and smoke the field by 10 shots.
I wonder if that'll be what kicks it over for mainstream America. When some PGA B-lister puts on a skirt and picks up an easy million bucks. When some mid-100s tennis player smokes the Williams girls badly.
It was a mid 200 level male that smoked them.
Right, but I'm talking about then being talked up as "the new best female tennis player ever". Because that guy was still #203 or whatever when he was done. So there's no Lia Thomas effect there. This is "was #175, is now #1 by a lot".
*shrug*
Fuck you, Tony. You have no idea what anyone here gives a fuck about. You are a disgusting, hateful person.
Yeah, maybe we don't need sex-segregated sports. We don't strictly speaking need any sports. But that would mean that women would no longer have an opportunity to win any major sporting event ever.
You give a fuck about whatever Tucker Carlson instructs you to give a fuck about on any given day.
Just think about it logically for one goddamn second. There is war, climate change, inflation, and a pandemic. How on god's green fuck are trans children your big problem right now?
They aren't but they are part of the bigger picture. It is possible to be concerned about more than just what you think we should be concerned about. Stop trying to distract.
I have no idea what Tucker Carlson thinks and don't particularly care.
I also have the capacity to be concerned about more than 2 or 3 things are worthy of concern simultaneously. It honestly doesn't take that much mental energy. It's hilarious that you seem to think I'm sitting here stewing about trans kids in sports. I read an article, I state my opinion. No biggie.
You seem to have time to make bitchy comments about what other people think about this. Shouldn't you be spending more time fretting about wars that have nothing to do with you? Or perhaps getting people to admit that maybe monitary policy is the driver of inflation?
"Noooooo, why do you care that they're cutting of children's tits and nutsacks, pay attention to the phony climate change bullshit instead!!!! Look over there! It's Covid and it's only 99.6% survivable!!!"
As expected of Tony.
I have yet to see Zeb quote anything from Tucker Carlson.
There are plenty of right-wing propagandists out there to choose from. It's not coincidence after coincidence that you people all care about the same random culture war nonsense all at the exact same time.
People have cared about this for over a decade you retarded piece of shit. You just got your latest talking points about it.
Uhh. It's probably because we all saw this article posted on this website that we frequent. Not too hard to figure out.
Are you really so limited in capacity that you can't have an opinion about more than three things at a time?
Sorry, 4 things.
There is war, climate change, inflation, and a pandemic. How on god's green fuck are trans children your big problem right now?
An excellent question for the Biden Administration.
You, like shrike, listen to more right wing media than anybody here.
How on god's green fuck are trans children your big problem right now?
Because your idiot leftist administration has announced a unilateral change in established law.
So, those who object should just say; "Well, there are other things to worry about, so, go right ahead and we'll deal with it when there aren't"?
Another leftist tactic: Change things, then complain that the people, who don't want the change, are the ones making it into an issue. "It's been done, it's too late to say we can't"
Note: "Trans children" don't exist, in the first place. Those who say the do are guilty of child abuse.
“ There is war, climate change, inflation, and a pandemic. How on god's green fuck are trans children your big problem right now?”
Tell it to the Biden administration.
Maybe when I had a daughter who is involved heavily in sports and I want to protect her and give her the ability to compete to her best against people she has an adequate chance of competing against.
In high school I quit basketball after my sophomore year. I was never better than a second rank bench holder on the JV squad (only because the c-squad was disbanded for lack of competition). I would play one on one with a girl who made varsity half way through her freshman year and played starting point guard her sophomore year. She made all state our senior year. I would beat her 9 out of 10 games. Usually by double digits. My upper body strength allowed me to shoot outside shots, three point range, fairly consistently. I also had 7 inches height on her and almost a foot more spread arm width. I was a mediocre sprinter, my 40 was definitely not something to brag about. As my varsity football coach told me, "Chili you can't run, you can't catch, but your smart, so your playing backside offensive tackle". She was a sprinter on the track team and was pretty good, but I could easily outsprint her. Her only advantage was ball handling skills, but my height made up for her better ball handling skills and allowed me to close her out under the basket. So, a girl at the top of her athletic skills, vs a mediocre and indifferent basketball player, couldn't compete. She practiced non-stop, played 3 on 3 tournaments during the summer, and did basketball camps. Me, I might play one or two pickup games in our barn during the summer. Hadn't practiced in two years and didn't play any winter sports (once football was done). You might wave off biological differences, but I have first hand knowledge about how they are a very real thing.
No shit people have biological differences. A civilized society doesn't require people to be born a certain way before they're allowed to fit in. Instead of doing the boring reactionary thing and trying to keep everything exactly the same as you remember it as a child, why not figure out how to fit the reality of trans people into a new, freer form of society?
If you don't want to do that work, let progressives do it. Just stop insisting that governments inspect the genitals of children. That's a bridge too far to me.
A civilized society doesn't force everyone to accept delusions of people woth mental illness.
But please Tony, keep telling the anorexic girl she's fat.
You can believe whatever you want to believe. The problem is you people keep using the FUCKING GOVERNMENT to force other people to live by your worldview.
I'm pretty sure the problem is the left used the government first, to force their will and then cried when some republicans responded and then tried blaming it on Republicans and conservatives. And you know this, but you would rather deflect blame and demonize anyone who disagrees with you.
So Republicans using the force of government to police the very genitals of women and children is liberals' fault. We made them do it. Typical.
Fuck that isn't even close to what is happening. You used government interference and Republicans responded. You are the one bringing in genitalia. You've had that answered multiple times. So it's a pure bullshit argument at this point.
You started the fire, then complain when someone points to the box of matches in your hands and tries to take them away before you set something else ablaze. Typical fascist piece of shit.
You are the ones forcing government into everything Tony. It is trannies trying to force female leagues to accept men.
The shit has been settled law since title IX passed. You are the one trying to change it dumbass.
Are you even fucking aware of laws in California being developed to allow teachers to allow kids as young as 12 to use them to get surgery or hormone treatments? Or the use of CPS to remove kids whose parents won't transition kids? Literally direct involvement of government dumbass.
But in a way that expands freedom, no?
No. It does not. It removes all parental freedom of minors. Did you honestly just ask that?
This is why people in support of this are called groomers. Because next up is letting children decide if they want to have sex with adults. Fuck off pedo.
You are a completely retarded faggot, the state taking your children at gun point and providing them irreversible hormone blockers is a fucking travesty and only deprives freedom, people like you should be hung from lampposts.
I don't care about them fitting in, I care about allowing my daughter to compete against her peers in a fair manner. Yes about 2% of females will reach around 5'10 or taller, but 98% won't. 5'10 is the average height of a male.
I'm not saying it's a total nonissue, but it's also not not a nonissue.
Bullshit, it isn't up to you to decide it's a non-issue. You accuse others of having no skin in the game, but since you are a self proclaimed homosexual male, you have even less skin in the game. To you it's a non issue because it doesn't impact you but to us with female children who compete in sports it matters a lot. I want my daughter to enjoy sports and to be as safe as possible. Her playing against biological males who are 5'10, 175 pounds (most 5'10 female athletes weigh far less) increases her risk of serious injury and lessens her enjoyment. So, no it's not a non issue. You don't get to decide what is important for other people.
But my issue is not children's sports, a subject I possibly care about less than literally any other in the universe. My issue is that the Republican party is using you like a cheap fuck doll to get you all worked up over a sex-based culture war issue in time for election day. I care about the fucking fascists having power.
Bullshit, the left started this over a decade ago, the right is responding now, and like always, the left are trying to rewrite history by stating it is the right that is making an issue out of nothing. Unfortunately for you, people are well aware of the actual history, and no longer buy this argument. The left was the first to use the government to enforce it's will, by suing and through executive actions at the federal level, the Republicans responded with state level, and you then blame the Republicans. It's the same story I've seen time and time again, on almost every single social issue ever in my nearly five decades on this planet. Your side started it, and now trying to blame the right for starting it. And what is more, you are well aware of this, yet you are so fucking untruthful and dishonorable that you have no qualms lying about it.
Tony, I appreciate your comments and agree with them most of the time here - not this time. The GOP has wisely plucked this issue as a culture war winner and we Democrats - most of whom I guarantee you do not agree with Lea Thomas swimming against young women - will get beat on the head with it and possibly lose some close elections because of it. That may or may not be a good reason to change your mind on it, but if you keep pushing it, you and others who either haven't thought it out or who sincerely believe that a handful of transgender women athletes are more important than the aspirations - some realistic, some not - of millions of girls for the 1st time in the history of humanity getting excited to participate in sports and maybe being the next Serena are hanging a BS issue on our party that we mostly don't deserve and which will we lose on.
Yeah, that's the point for shallow MAGA assholes likes Geiger - issues don't matter, it's all about "owning the (fill in the blank)".
I don't have a lot of nice things to say about you, but I do appreciate your injecting a little counter to Tony's idiotic take that this is something only Republican Tucker Carlson fans care about. This really isn't a left/right issue at all.
Zeb - https://reason.com/2022/03/31/department-of-education-prepares-rules-prohibiting-school-discrimination-against-gay-and-trans-students/?comments=true#comment-9427803
Oh, I agree with you, but FOX News can replay video of that single trans swimmer a million times and convince its viewers that this makes it a national crisis. There is no stopping them when they want to concoct a culture war. And obviously it's going to be based on something real happening in society.
Where people's brains go haywire is when they have lost all sense of perspective. I can't do anything about the woke Twitter mob, and frankly anything coming from any Twitter mob is not real life, and we as a society need to figure out how to distinguish between the two.
Of course Joe Friday comes galloping in to defend the left. I bet he called me a transphobe and a racist. Because he can't argue facts so has to demonize those who disagree with him.
soldier can't read or has rabies. I am agreeing with him and all he can do is attack me personally.
Guess soldier doesn't care that I wrote "...believe that a handful of transgender women athletes are more important than the aspirations - some realistic, some not - of millions of girls for the 1st time in the history of humanity getting excited to participate in sports and maybe being the next Serena...." though he claims he's primarily motivated by his daughters aspirations (and we assume fun). Well, being a fellow human - not a fact I'm proud of when thinking of soldier - I have a granddaughter who's dreams I don't want squashed by the next generation's Lea Thomases.
Joe hasn't got a clue I muted him because I really don't care what he says 99% of the time because he is disingenuouss as fuck 99% of the time. If I'm wrong this time, oh well.
You did come across as caring more about how it effects the party than kids.
Jesse, I explained to Tony why I think he's wrong and the unforced error his position is to our party. Soldier doesn't even read my comments - he's chicken shit - but still insists on commenting on them. WTF is wrong with that guy?
If I am wrong about Joe Friday's comments, and looking at how others reacted to them, I will admit I am, I apologize. Since he is muted, I went purely by my history of interactions with him. And as such, it appears I made an ass of myself with the post attacking him. For this I am sorry to both him and everyone else in this case. It's wrong to make assumptions, which I did, and since I have muted him, I will try not to in the future even address him, unless I unmute him first to see what he wrote.
And you have been corrected on all of that nonsense repeatedly. You accuse everyone here of not caring about girl's sports. Several people with daughters corrected you on that. Can you not even conceive that that is really why people care about this? And it really isn't just right wingers and Republicans. You are so fucking full of shit.
But my issue is not children's sports
Therefore, nobody should care about it.
Not to the exclusion of all sanity.
Not to the exclusion of all sanity.
Says the guy who sees no problem letting a man into the women's swimming competition.
"Except in the direction that happens to align with my political ideology."
When I was a junior in high school who’d never played a single second of organized basketball, I played 1v1 against a college senior woman’s basketball player, and I absolutely crushed her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_One
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Zero_(political_notion)
God help us.
Happy Trans Day Of Visibility!!
Does averting my eyes make me a hater?
yes. so does looking.
the war on discrimination is laughable.
How exactly are gays being discriminated against in public schools now? What is going on that the government needs to prohibit? Shackford never bothers to explain that.
And men playing women's sports is not "controversial". It is strongly opposed by all but the lunatic fringe. Transgenderism looks like it might actually be the left pushing the culture war too far. A massive backlash is forming against it. Once the pendulum starts swinging back it tends to keep going. It likely was a very bad idea for gays to allow the left to associate them with transgenderism, which has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation.
"How exactly are gays being discriminated against in public schools now?"
Shackford's boyfriend isn't allowed to molest 5 year olds anymore?
Might be a reference to the Florida bill. Shackford has a bug up his ass over that one.
Because when he thinks of predators sexualizing young children for abuse he apparently associates that with the gays he knows.
So, If I have a customer facing employee that decides tomorrow that he is a woman and shows up sporting a full beard and wearing a dress I can't insist that he dresses in proper (per company policy) male attire or fire him?
Don't I have some rights as a business owner???
No.
Had mandatory anti harassment training last week and one of the examples was that it is illegal to tell an employee (male in the example) not to wear excessive amounts of jewelry in a customer facing role.
Is this like the lynching law - a new law covering something that is already illegal under existing law?
Well then, when do we shut down the United Negro College Fund and end the man/woman separation in, well, everything?
Also, you guys should be able to understand that the very use of the form 'trans' is defacto admission that said person is not a man/woman.
If they were, trans would not be necessary.
This exactly what I've been pointing out on this issue. The inclusion of the word "trans" is by definition an asterisk. If a man self-identifies as a woman, then he's a woman, full stop. By continually categorizing him as a 'trans woman', then the asterisk must mean something.
If a man self-identifies as a woman, then he's a woman, full stop.
NO, HE'S NOT!
In no way can a man become a woman unless those terms have no meaning.
In virtually every of nature's creations, there is male and female, designated by their chromosomes. Humans are no different.
I fail to understand how any woman can accept that, that which makes her the wonder that is "woman", can be appropriated by a man, just by thinking he is.
"participation in women's sports, but that's where the culture war is right now"
"culture war" and "participation" are the Democrat framing
the GOP framing is that it's grossly and obviously unfair to women to force them compete athletically with, share locker rooms with, and be viewed naked by men who like to dress up as girls
eventually society is going to have to realize that while punishing deviance is wrong, encouraging healthy, sustainable sexual norms is neither arbitrary nor outdated
fortunately a few generations of "40% of my kindergartners are LGBQT!" and the problem solves itself
Weird that a libertarian did not suggest doing away with the Dept of Education.
No, you see, we need Big Government to ensure men's liberty to compete against women, a woman's liberty to be a cop or a fireman, your liberty to force me to bake you a cake, etc., etc.
"the current conflict over how to treat transgender girls who wish to compete against cisgender girls in youth sports"
Why no attention for transgender boys?
How many more decades do us normal people have to indulge the endless fascination and titillation of repressed right-wingers with the genitals of children? It's fucking sick dude.
Because they would be obliterated.
Pretty sure it is people like you trying to groom children as young as 4.
Nobody cares about female to male transgendered competing with males because there is no inherent physiological advantage. I realize that you lack the imagination for it, but your opponents may actually mean what they argue, rather than your projecting your strangeness into them.
This is sort of how like Gamergate was about journalistic integrity.
Gamergate was about journalistic integrity.
Journalismists who didn't like the pushback that was interfering with their payoffs invented a sexism narrative, and gullible idiots like you swallowed it.
Is there a single thing you believe that isn't false?
We had to dox and ruin women's lives for integrity!
Umm .. it was the activist women's gamer side doing that shit for brains.
Calling out journalists for fraud and grift is doxxing in any universe, Tony.
The whole narrative was crafted on lies by slimebag fraudsters who were guilty as fuck.
*isn't
Holy shit, is there no leftist narrative you won’t parrot?
Female to male was mentioned in the damn article, but even with hormone treatment female to male won't have any biological advantage over biological males, therefore, except for their own safety, it doesn't really matter. Bringing it up as a gotcha is just more of your asinine deflection. Even with massive hormonal infusions, the female body will not achieve the same biological achievements a natural male will achieve. It's rather basic science. I could give my daughter testosterone in high doses and she will never develop the muscoskeletal development that my sons have naturally. Because genetically it isn't possible. She might reach 5'6" or 5'7", where naturally she's probably going to reach 5'3"-5'5", both of my boys are likely to push 6' (my oldest is almost there, taller than I am). Even with hormones and puberty blockers, the fact is genetically she is still female, and we might be able to push a small amount of performance, but it isn't nearly enough to make up for the difference. This is well known.
We've been doing this in the feedlots for half a century, using hormonal blockers in culled heifers and free martin heifers (where their reproductive tracts never developed properly) and giving them testosterone and they still don't perform the same as a steer that was castrated at birth, receiving mainly estrogen supplements (they are given estrogen because estrogen improves fat accumulation, thus they marble better). The steer gain better, muscle better, has better feed conversion, etc. That's why heifer calves sell for 20 cents on average per pound less steers. Even though puberty is blocked in both, and even with hormonal implants, the heifers can't achieve the same performance as the steers.
It really comes back to the misunderstanding of biology by so many so called "science followers". Growth performance is a phenotype, it's a combination of environment and genetics, but genetics has far more influence than environment in this case, and is highly heritable. That's why ranchers depend tens of thousands of dollars on a bull, but will spend less than a tenth on a cow, because it's highly heritable and strongly sex linked to the y chromosome. Since females lack the y chromosome, they are at a natural disadvantage, because female mammals are genetically programmed to get pregnant and support pregnancy. That's why fat disposition is more important than muscle mass and the skeletal structure to support more muscle mass. Lipids are what triggers almost all hormonal production in females, and what supports the fetus as it develops, and it supports lactation. Female bodies simply aren't capable of putting on the same muscle or skeletal growth that males are.
Sure, biological females can play against biological males, but they will likely get injured a lot more, and never be competitive. So, it really doesn't benefit them to do so.
I just don't think the supposed integrity of children's frivolities is as important as children not feeling totally ostracized from society for being a little different. I grew up a gay boy in the Bible belt. Trust me, it's a better world for all concerned when we allow for a little diversity.
Sports are arbitrary inventions of humans. Baseball did not emerge fully formed from a cosmic event. It's all rather silly when you think about it. So if we need to alter how we do sports, what's so wrong with that? I think we should do less sports in school and more musical theater, but that's just me.
Take boxing. There are numerous absurdly specific weight categories to make this ridiculous sport "fair." There are ways to categorize people hormonally, by weight, by strength tests, or whatever, to make competition as fair as you like. These are just things we made up. We can make up new things. It's all about what you value, and I just don't value the arbitrary rules of specific extracurricular activities more than I value giving children all the opportunities to participate in their community that they are entitled to.
Sports have been part of human society since probably before Homo Sapiens existed, any anthropologists will tell you this. Our closest ape relatives participate in play that could be labeled as sports. I'm not saying they can't be accepted, but saying biology trumps feelings. Wear a dress if you have a dick, I don't care, but if you were born with a dick, you play boys sports and vice versa. There is a reason that no female has ever played in the NFL, and only one female has played at division one level college football (and then as a backup place kicker, the most protected player on the field). It isn't due to any rules that bar females from playing football.
Take boxing or wrestling which do divide by weight class, even at weight class, female boxers and wrestlers are rarely competitive against their male counterparts, because females have a larger percentage of their weight as adipose tissue, whereas males have a larger percentage of their weight as muscle. It's biology. A male banter weight would beat the fuck out of a female banter weight, 99.9% of the time. And I mean beat downs that are likely to cause permanent damage.
Sports may be part of our DNA, but specific sports are not.
Dude, once you get people taking hormones early, the postpubescent physiological differences are minimized. But you don't want to permit prepubescent people from taking hormones, right?
So the only question on the table is what do you want government to do about trans people?
No they aren't. I addressed that above. You can't undo the influence of genetics even with early intervention. It's scientifically impossible. We've been trying to do it with cattle for a century and haven't been able to do it. Because it is sex linked, not just hormonal. It's called growth potential and no amounts of hormones can possibly make up the difference.
The UFC actually tried this, and the female competitor ended up in the fucking hospital.
Wasn't ufc but a different mma league.
Okay, I knew it was a brutal physical sport like the UFC. My mistake. I knew it happened but appear to have been mistaken about the particulars and didn't do due diligence in researching it, like I did with the numbers in regards to average height, number of intersex births etc, all of which I did research before posting.
Fallon Fox.
All trans kids can participate in sports, so so lying.
Males in one category and females in another.
the supposed integrity of children's frivolities
Please go characterize it that way to the women who lost to Lia Thomas, but please have someone film it when you do and post it online so we can watch them beating your ass.
I swear to God, as you people keep bringing up literally the one case of this in the entire planet, I think the actual point I'm making has been demonstrated. Stop being a political party's fuckdoll. It's embarrassing.
you people keep bringing up literally the one case of this in the entire planet
Because it's the most ridiculous one yet people like you reliably show up to defend it and declare that no sane person could have a problem with it. You've been shown many cases, and statistically MTF trans are way over represented in the upper ranks of athletics as compared to their representation the general population.
It really couldn't be more obvious that this is a problem, and this issue in particular is really separating the completely blind partisans, like you, from the only mostly blind partisans like Joe Friday.
Yeah, when you’ve lost Joe Friday, you should probably take a step back and reevaluate your position.
Should a boxer identify as a soldier and bring a gun into the ring?
This can only be projection.
We're the ones trying to NOT obsess over genitals. It's people like you who have a hard on for grooming young kids.
You, libertarians nominally, want government to start inspecting the underpants of children before they're allowed to do what they want to do.
Now you've resorted to making shit up. You're so pathetic, Tony.
No one needs to inspect anything. Males are XY females are XX, nothing changes that. Except for (far) less than 1% of births, sex is easily distinguishable at birth. If your born a male, you will be genetically male your entire life. No hormones or surgery changes that. It's simple, you play the sex that you're born with. If someone tries to cheat the system by lying about it, you deal with it on a case by case scenario. And would be easy enough to adjudicate without inspecting genitalia. Since that was your first thought, I have to wonder about you.
So you just want government to give children a genetic test.
It's not necessary because it's easy for doctors and nurses to determine birth sex in more than 99.98% of births.
God you are fucking stupid and grasping at straws.
As a nurse, I assisted with over 250 births, and cared for twice that number of newborn infants. I never once wasn't able to determine the sex of the infant. No genetic test needed, but the vast majority of all pregnancies actually do get genetic testing in the second trimester as part of routine OB GYN testing, to check for generic abnormalities. And part of that is chromosomal abnormalities. It's actually growing even more common, as the average age of women at first birth grows older, because older parents are more at risk for genetic abnormalities. So again, your illiteracy of the actual science shows how asinine your arguments are.
But I'm asking what you want school officials to do if a suspected trans kid wants to be on the "wrong" sports team. If it's not a genital check or a DNA extraction, what is it? A smell test?
But I'm asking what you want school officials to do if a suspected trans kid wants to be on the "wrong" sports team.
D . . . do you think 12-year-old kids just manifest out of the ether without ever having existed before?
So your answer is to tell the child that they may not participate in the sport that corresponds to their gender.
Fine. At least it's a position. I envision a genderless future, so maybe that's the path to it.
You are the one, after all, advocating putting girls and boys on the same team.
So your answer is to tell the child that they may not participate in the sport that corresponds to their gender.
I'm not fond of games where we keep redefining what words mean, so I'll be real clear about what I mean.
If last year you were Jim and you played on the boys' team, then this year even if you decide that you're now Jennifer, if you want to play sports you play on the boys' team.
If you're taking hormones that are altering you in some way that makes you less good at the sport, then you've chosen that over the sports. That's how it works. You don't suddenly have a female body because you changed your name, and you don't suddenly have a female body because you've surgically altered some bits.
I don't care about your gender or your manner of gender expression, and I do think that sports would be better if they were sorted simply by size and mass rather than gender, so that hypothetically we may agree on some future vision, but in the world we currently live in where sports are gendered, forcing girls' teams to take boys is not a step toward the future you envision.
Why should gender, which is supposedly a mere social construct, be determinate in deciding who qualifies as a female for sports which is segregated out because of physiological disparities between the sexes?
"So you just want government to give children a genetic test."
It's called looking, Tony.
The number of people born with visually indeterminate genitalia is impossibly small.
Why do you hate science.
So you want school officials to inspect genitals.
Why do you keep using this as an example when this has already been answered multiple times? Someone would almost think you are a dishonest fuck, who doesn't actually read what people post and instead substitute arguments no one actually made.
How about parents and doctors first, Tony? Let mom and dad and the pediatrician have a little look see before dragging in the Board of Education?
What absolute freaks you catamite fanciers are, Tony.
The leftist are nothing but sick, demented, and evil. Pushing mental illness onto children by encouraging and facilitating a pretend "change of sex" should be against the law.
It amazes me that this shit is still going on. In my experience it isn't even a left/right culture war thing. Almost everyone left-leaning I talk to thinks it's insane to have people with male bodies competing in women's sports. It's really not a tricky issue.
If it's not a tricky issue, why is it the Republican party's number one national obsession?
Is it? Doesn't seem that way to me. But I'm not all that plugged into the Republican party.
I don't know why you think it consumes so much of people's energy to have an opinion on this. It's something people care about because it's still happening. And it's fucking nuts.
Trans people are becoming more visible, that's true. And it's inevitable that reactionaries will attempt to commit genocide against the new thing that makes them feel icky.
I am just sitting here wishing you'd keep your genocidal fantasies to yourselves instead of involving the government. Like a libertarian ought.
Genocide?
Lol. Wow. Youre an idiot.
Not letting a male to female transgender play sports in the girls league is only a.few steps from mass murder. It is obvious, if you are deranged.
You people are too stupid to stop there, as fascists always are.
This is zero percent about children's sports. That's just the wedge. It's about the burning desire of reactionaries to mass murder people who make them feel icky. Tale as old as time.
If it isn't about sports why are you so upset that some states have decided to not allow biological males to compete against biological females? Most people could care less except when it comes to sports and locker rooms. So you make an issue out of it, then when people disagree with part of it, you demonize them for disagreeing with part of it, and write off their disagreements as irrelevant. It's straight out of the left playbook. And then you rewrite history to try and say those disagreeing with it, are the ones who started it, and like Joe Friday call them all bigots.
I've become more sanguine about bigots, even as they have managed to capture an entire major political party and purge it of any other policy pretenses.
Society IS evolving rapidly. At every step of the way, from women's lib to black civil rights to gay rights to trans rights, half the country is going to be slow and lash out in fear. It's practically a natural phenomenon.
I try to tell my progressive friends to always remember the backlash. It is always more powerful than them, because it's people acting on their lizard brains.
Well, since your party is bigots, you have had to become more tolerant of them or else you would have to admit you've been wrong.
Nonsense cheap shot. My party is, if anything, too anti-bigot (or woke). Bigots vote.
Your party calls black people who don't vote democrats white.
That's about as bigoted as you can get where you determine the agency of another race for them.
Mmmmmm, taste the projection.
"It's about the burning desire of reactionaries to mass murder people"
And yet mass murder always comes from people like Tony, the socialists and the authoritarian left.
Where the fuck are you getting "genocide" from? Has anyone suggested that trans people should be killed? Or even excluded from society? I have no objection to trans people doing what they feel is best for them in their own lives. My objections are to pretending that that means that there is no difference between biological males and females and destroying women's athletic competition.
I trust sports organizations to come up with fair rules. The IOC already has some. Perhaps we could move on to other trans issues that aren't actually cherry picked as the single most problematic aspect of the matter?
But it's somehow not bafflingly hypocritical of him to spend this much time lamenting us having an opinion on it.
Tony, have you seen the modern trans movement? And their attempts to force acceptance of their insanity of gender even to trans panda acceptance? Their involvement with corporations to force one viewpoint? Their involvement to deny biology?
You really are one dumb and ignorant person.
As long as government isn't taking away people's freedom to live how they want, I don't care.
Even if those people watch Tucker Carlson?
I want to give them more freedom. The freedom to think for themselves. It's only reeducation if they were educated the first time.
What a fucking Nazi you are, and the scariest part is you reached that point as a bien pensant.
CPS is actually involved in many states moron.
As long as government isn't taking away people's freedom to live how they want, I don't care.
What if government is taking away the freedom of girls to have their own sports teams?
I just don't think this country's school sports teams are going to be overrun by trans kids trying to get an unfair advantage. The scenario is ludicrous.
A rare occasion Zeb - I agree. I fully support equal rights for all Americans, but the point of Title IX is that separate but equal works and is in good faith in the context of sports. It has worked very well with girls entering sports in ever higher numbers and now even an audience is following, though not in the numbers for men - yet. The benefit - and fun - for the girls is well documented with everything from reduced pregnancies improving. I say this as someone who has long followed men sports and for the last decade or so, women's sports like collegiate volleyball, softball, and gymnastics. I buy tickets for an attend live events for both. Allowing the very few transgender women like Lea Thomas squashes the aspirations of those girls and is obviously unfair. Hey, if they take hormone suppression drugs before or early in puberty, maybe, but are these sometime irreversible treatments a good idea then? No.
Full rights for trangender Americans? OK, but not in this realm which we have already accepted as separate but equal.
By the way, for those who haven't gone to any women's sporting events, the attitude is so different and refreshing. Not suggesting men should change - they won't - but women team members are relentlessly cheerful and encouraging. No deadly stares, bad temper outbursts, or threatening postures. Viva la difference!
"No discrimination based on sex" would seem to be a fairly clear ban on women's and men's sports.
Thus far we have gone with "separate but equal"... meaning equal numbers of slots for boys and girls sports and scholarships. But if you cannot discrimate based on sex .... at all.... that would logically be over.
"What's a woman"?
"I can't answer that, I'm not a biologist"
"That's not a woman!"
"How can you say that, are you a biologist?"
Two PhDs in evolutionary biology explain, in simple terms, what the fuck a woman is.
Soon, only people with a Y chromosome will qualify for sports.
No matter what they're 'gendered'.
Will that make you happy, Scott? No icky girls allowed--except for girls who have or had penises?
A worthy goal, but something tells me that by the time the rules are finished, they won't resemble much having to do with non-discrimination.
It may drown out other discussions, including the part of the order that's probably uncontroversial to most people—that public schools generally shouldn't be discriminating against LGBT students in other areas or treating them differently from other students.
In reality the question is how differently are we required to treat them.
Just be a decent non-bigot and you should avoid the gulag.
Tony, for you.
https://reason.com/2022/03/31/department-of-education-prepares-rules-prohibiting-school-discrimination-against-gay-and-trans-students/?comments=true#comment-9427885
Tony: just do as I insist and keep your ideas to yourself or else. And I will call this freedom. If you question me or voice your own opinion, I will label this authoritarianism and lock you up.
Do you even think what your posts actually mean before you post them? Because it's fairly obvious, even when you're trying to be funny, what your true intentions are.
Bigots have no right, haven't you heard?
(Of course, Tony gets to define who's a "bigot.")
I know when I'm doing sarcasm, but others often don't.
But it is want even good sarcasm and was, like a lot of sarcasm, actually says more about how you feel than you intended.
At least he's upfront about wanting to put people in prison-camps for thoughtcrime.
The funny thing is Trumpers voluntarily put themselves into an inescapable menial labor existence by being so very offended by tertiary education.
Do you know how much the average plumber makes? Or how technical their skills are? Or a welder? Heavy equipment operator? Diesel mechanic? Fuck you are stupid. If you have a degree, I would suggest you ask for your money back.
I have every respect for plumbers, but it's not political science, is it?
This coming from a guy that didn't understand that oil needs refining.
I doubt a political scientist has the engineering knowledge or math skills to tie his shoelaces let alone plumb or install gas lines in a house to code, Tony.
You seem to think getting a 21st century restricted plumber gas license or journeyman ticket is the equivalent of flipping burgers or digging ditches.
No, it is not. Plumbers perform a service that has real value to people.
We know Tony's in heaven now that grooming in schools has reached kindergarten.
The hatred in Reason comments sections toward LGBTQ people is something else.
Cite?
Fuck off
Stop messing with kids.
^This. It's not homophobic to be repelled by groomers.
Still no P in the LGBTQ2Si acronym yet.
And for fuck sake stop sockpuppeting Shrike.
So you accuse others of hatred and then when someone asked for an example/citation, your response is a malicious fuck off? Not all that self aware are you?
Example/citation: Your reply.
How is my reply hatred? Or full of malice? Since you are the one making the charge, it is your responsibility to provide more evidence than just your assertions.
Especially as I didn't say I hated anyone, and didn't even state anyone had to live in accordance with my views. So, please inform us how disagreeing with you is hatred. Like I stated, it's pretty self evident that you use labels like hatred and bigotry not as they are defined but as weapons to silence anyone disagreement with your agenda.
You may consider your response droll or clever, but it is self evidently shallow and lacking substance. It's easy to make an evidence free assertion, but requires actual thought and energy to provide evidence. As you have now twice refused to provide evidence for your assertions we can only assume you don't have any evidence and are not honest in your assertions.
Really. That is just flat ignorant.
The default position for libertarians on sexuality is very much "that ain't none of my business".
Conservatives have largely adopted this viewpoint as well, robbing the left of the foil of bigotry.
Nobody cares if you want to live life as a dude when you were born as a woman. Even people who secretly think it is weird really don't care... Not from the point of view of the law.
So now they proclaim "trans women are women" and use that to extend to women's sports.... Where suddenly there is an obvious problem that they pretend does not exist.
In fairness, it isn't that big of a deal numerically, because trans women are rare enough to start with and then trans women who are also competitive athletes are rarer still. But the individual cases are still a problem for those affected, and the principle of the thing is pretty clear if you want to have women's sports as it's own thing.
So if you are of the opinion that a middle aged 6'4" male weightlifter should be able to compete with other women at the highest level after transitioning, and you view anyone who disagrees as "transphobic", then yeah..... you are gonna find a lot of transphobic people on the left, particularly among feminist heroes too.
So I call BS on your entire premise. The whole thing is dishonest. It is a cheap rhetorical trick... "You must agree with everything I claim, regardless of how ridiculous it might be, or you are a bigot!". It is dumb, and transparent to anyone without a dog in the fight.
You want actual rights to be protected? This is the right place. Hell, we won't just fight for your right to be a woman, we will fight for your right to live as your authentic self in any way that does not infringe on any other person's rights. Wanna create an autonomous collective for BDSM enthusiast trans men who want to live in a clothing optional compound? Knock yourself out. We will be on your side. Wanna make everyone else live in a society where BDSM enthusiast trans men walk around naked all day and use the power of the state to silence criticism of this? Then we will have a problem.
See how easy it is to be a libertarian? "You do you" - good. Force other people to live your way ,- bad. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.
Conservatives have spent the past 40 years *not* leaving people alone to be sexually diverse. They are currently passing laws meant to ostracize trans people. They are agitating to roll back gay marriage equality. What the actual fuck are you.
Bullshit. And you know it's bullshit.
It is simply not possible for you to have missed the Republican party's multidecade campaign to shit on nontraditional families. They freaked out over women having rights, they told gays to fuck off and die during AIDS, ran for president on opposing gay marriage in 2004, and are currently ginning up anti-trans hatred just in time for the midterms, and you're here participating in it!
You're just a poor persecuted martyr, huh? Maybe stop fiddling with people's kids and maybe they'll leave you alone.
Tony, we disagree on trans women in womens' sports, but otherwise that is accurate history and undeniable.
Soldier, who is forever calling out debate opponents on personal attackks, is one of the worst offenders of that practice and of course never comments on those on his team who rarely do anything but personal attacks.
This is stupid, ignorant and dishonest.
In short, a classic Tony.
Who hates LGBTQ+ people? It isn't hate to want our daughters to be able to compete equally. I could give a fuck what you do in your own bedroom, and I with who, as long as it's consenting, or even what you wear. What I do care about is everyone gets equal change to compete on a fair, level playing field. That means girls playing against girls, and boys against boys.
I played in a co-ed adult softball league, we had to have limits on how many home runs males could hit, and had to have rules about how many females had to be on the field minimum, just to even make it close to being fair. We also banned males from stealing, and had to rotate male and female pitchers every inning, to make it close to being fair for the female competitors. The military has different height weight standards for females and males, and different physical fitness tests. This is all due to the fact that females are at a natural disadvantage in most physical activities compared to males.
Lia Thomas was a mediocre male swimmer, ranked 462 out of all males at her level, she beat a Olympic competitor in the female category by over a second. A female swimmer who was ranked number one in her division before Thomas transitioned. Pointing out that isn't fair is not hatred. It's simple biology.
I don't allow my daughter to play football, not because I hate her, but because the chance of her getting seriously injured is way higher than for my two sons who both play football. Instead I encouraged her to play volleyball. No hatred involved, just a realization of biology.
I doubt you actually consider us haters, instead I believe you label us that because you would rather ascribe malice to our cause than debate against us, because you know we are right. So, instead of actually addressing the posters you resort to sophomoric ad hominems to try and silence is. No one wants to be labeled a bigot or hater, so you believe that by labeling us, you will shame us into silence and thus force your will on us. That is far more malice than stating biological males have an unfair physical advantage over biological females and for fairness shouldn't be allowed to compete against them.
Absolutely no one is saying ban transsex individuals. We are libertarians and libertarian leaning conservatives and classical liberals for the most part, as such we could care less what an individual does as long as it doesn't bring harm to others and forcing biological females to compete against biological males, simply because the male decided to declare themselves female, harms the biological females, by making them less competitive and increasing their risk of physical harm.
And we acknowledge that if you are a Trans woman who wants to compete in athletics, you are faced with some frustrating prospects. This does not impact most of these folks. My suit mates in college who were taking estrogen had little interest in sports. I would hazard a guess that this is more common.
But if you are 1972 Bruce Jenner and you transition back then.... you would be the best woman in the world in quite a number of disparate track and field events. Before transition, he was an elite athlete, but nowhere near the too in any individual events. Caitlin could have won maybe a dozen gold medals in 1972. It is a bizarre edge case, but it is where the unfair happens. I don't think there is a good answer.
I could not make my high school baseball or basketball teams. I would have easily been the best player on the softball and girls basketball teams. (It was a small school, so no grandiosity required) that surely would not be fair.
It is only competitive sports that matter. Your rec softball league? Nobody cares. The local club championship in golf or tennis? Who cares.
It is only at the competitive level where slots are limited and championships are hard won that this even comes up. And at that level you have legitimately competing interests... and it is completely disingenuous to pretend that there is no disparity in the fairness of these two competing interests.
Yet this is where all the push is coming. Why? So they can find someone to push back that they can call a bigot. It is stupid, calculated political hackery. So who really cares about these people, and who is using people like pawns?
Fine. Now do gay marriage. I think Tony called Republicans out for opposing that and you claimed he was wrong.
Above intended for soldier who has me muted because he's chicken shit and can't defend his positions without getting emotional.
What's the deal with the biggest blowhard pontificators on the board - Ken and soldier - muting other posters who usually disagree with them?
Hahahahahahahahaha
So once again we have a case of something no one was actually worried about until the progressives started making a big deal about it (this wasn't really on anyone's radar until recently). When people raise predictable objections, the left than goes and blames them for making a big deal out of it, and labels them bigots. How many times have we seen this play out? And isn't it more frequent now? It's on every issue anymore. And it generally is driven by the most fringe activists.
How many of us even considered this an issue ten, twenty years ago? Or even cared about it? I didn't until a small number of activists started making a huge deal about it, and trying to force everyone else to confirm to their views. And once it became obvious the majority disagreed with their views, the dismiss any disagreement as culture war and blame them for making a big deal about it.
They also label anyone who disagrees as bigots and haters to try and embarrass them into silence and acceptance. This isn't a libertarian approach. It isn't a live and let live approach. You want to wear a dress and a full beard. Good for you, but don't expect people not to stare from time to time. You police yourself, and let others police themselves, and don't enforce your will on others and I could care less what you do. But try and force me to accept your views, even if I agree with you, I will resist. As will most people, it's human nature.
It's also human nature to push back against ignorant and offensive comments by a retrograde majority of fools in a supposedly libertarian forum. What happened to "fiscally conservative, socially liberal"? The socially liberal part? Very little sign of that in Reason comments sections.
What part of do as you want as long as it doesn't harm others isn't socially liberal?
It's not obvious that "the right to win at sports more easily" is a fundamental right we should care about over the right of trans students to have a normal life.
Really?
So the next Alex Rodriguez goes out for softball at your daughter's school.... you are fine with that? She throws in rhe low 90s. The next best girl throws in the high 50s. She hits the ball nearly 3 times as far as next best girl on the team. Dangerously fast for a 43 foot mound.
That is your idea of "fair"? Because she wants to play?
How about your daughter who competes in boxing. You OK with Hector Camacho's current iteration competing with her? Yeah, no.
This argument is a total loser.
Eh, our bodies will be irrelevant soon. Will you permit people to alter the way they present to the world in the metaverse, or are we doing genital inspections there too?
If you think that the "metaverse" is about to be a thing, then you're even a bigger idiot than you advertise.
You lost this thread so hard.
Immediately transitioning genders and becoming the world champ in a sport isn’t “leading a normal life.”
Yeah. That is just stupid. And a perfect example of what he was talking about.
Congratulations, you are a walking parody.
Cite?
Says the piece of shit.
"Socially liberal" means "you can do whatever you want, as long as you don't commit aggression against other people".
"Socially liberal" does not mean "government needs to force people to associate with people they don't want to associate with".
Legalizing gay sex is socially liberal; forcing Christian bakers to bake wedding cakes for gay couples is not socially liberal, it is fascist.
All I can say is that I hope the Biden Administration goes all in on this, and drags the entire national DNC with them.
Soldier, you are so interesting and your ideas so unique. I can barely wait for your next post, which I will wait for while refreshing the screen every 2minutes in anticipation.
Childishly superstitious gay-bashers and faux libertarians are among my favorite culture war casualties.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit, that is, and not a step further. You get to whine and whimper all you like, but you will comply with the preferences of your betters.
So you are pro-gay?
This article is dumb, as usual.
No one thinks gay and trans people should be discriminated against. The problem is, the left has changed the definition of what constitutes discrimination. It's not discrimination to protect women's ability to meaningfully compete in sports. It's not discrimination to prevent biological males who still have male sex organs from using girls' bathroom facilities, over the objections of girls who don't want them there.
Lots of people think that gay and trans people should be discriminated against.
Anti-discrimination laws are not going to change that fact.
Irrational prejudice and discrimination is something that a free, liberal society needs to legally permit.
The Civil Rights Act was well intentioned, but it has turned out to be a very, very bad idea.
Turns out, the best way to punish businesses and institutions who irrationally discriminate against employees, students, etc. is to let them discriminate, because they are depriving themselves of good employees.
I’m for maximum freedom: get rid of public school and mandatory education, and this all goes away.
I try to do my own amateur research whenever possible. Women do appear to still be a thing.
Oh oh oh, I am. Can I take a stab?
"Are you a biologist? Yea, didn't think so."
If you refer the question to a biologist, there's no such thing as "trans." Men provide sperm, women provide and nurture eggs.
I also am a nurse, so have medical and biological backgrounds, can I take a stab? Or am I not qualified according to the left.
Which just goes to show the point that this is all a motte and bailey attack anyway.
They start by saying that they're talking about "gender", not "sex". Which is the logical construction under which you can have a "woman with a penis".
But then they demand access to the sex segregated facilities of the people who most frequently typify their gender identity.
And you know that there's no chance of them just throwing in the towel and going "Ok, you got us!" if the NCAA called it the "Female's Swimming Championships". So since the entire baseline argument is on false premises...