Ukraine Can't Defend Its Freedom With an Army of Conscripts
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has barred men aged 18-60 from leaving the country.

The Ukrainian leader seeking the free world's help to fight off a Russian invasion is refusing to allow Ukrainian men to flee with their families to safety.
"The Ukrainian government has mandated that men aged 18 to 60 are not allowed to leave the country," The New York Times reports.
A CNN report on February 24, the day Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy declared martial law, quoted a statement from Ukraine's State Border Guard Service. It declared that so long as martial law remained in effect, "it is forbidden for men aged 18-60, Ukraine citizens, to leave the borders of Ukraine."
This policy is inhumane, as it has effectively forced the separation of families. When the Trump administration separated children from parents at the Mexican border, a vast uproar ensued over the cruelty of the policy. Future U.S. President Joe Biden denounced Trump's policy as "outrageous." Rather than condemning Zelenskyy's policy, though, Biden has directed $1 billion of American military aid to Ukraine and portrayed Zelenskyy as representing the side of freedom in the conflict.
"In the contest between democracy and autocracy, between sovereignty and subjugation, make no mistake: Freedom will prevail," Biden said February 24. "God bless the people of a free and democratic Ukraine."
How "free" is any country where you aren't free to leave?
The Zelenskyy non-elderly-men-can't-leave policy violates at least three provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 13 states, "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own." Article 9 states no one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. Article 7 states, "All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law." In Zelenskyy's Ukraine, men aged 18 to 60 are being arbitrarily detained. They are being discriminated against on the basis of their sex and age.
The freedom to leave was one of the most fundamental distinctions between the free world and the Soviet bloc during the Cold War. At the Berlin Wall, East German border guards shot those trying to flee communism to West Germany. Jewish "refuseniks," denied permission by Soviet authorities to emigrate to Israel or to the United States, were the focus of a bipartisan and grassroots advocacy effort that played an important role in the eventual defeat of the Soviet Union. Cubans and Vietnamese alike risked their lives to flee communism in rickety boats.
Periodic proposals by Democratic politicians to impose exit taxes on American citizens have prompted me to recall the Reichsfluchtsteuer, the 25 percent tax that the Nazis imposed on Jews trying to flee Germany in the 1930s.
It's one thing to be stirred by the Ukrainians voluntarily taking up arms to defend their democracy and national home from a Russian dictator. It's another thing when it turns out the Ukrainian men don't have the choice to leave if they want to.
The policy is counterproductive to the goals of peace and of an independent Ukraine. Russia can now claim, when bombing Ukrainian civilian targets, that the Ukrainian civilians remaining are men of fighting age. Allowing men to leave with their families would sharply increase the number of refugees, raising the motivation of Ukraine's neighbors to push for a rapid peaceful resolution. Even the remaining Ukrainian fighters may be more likely to fight bravely if they are genuine volunteers rather than trapped conscripts caught between the pincers of the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine and the Russian army. It's hard to condemn Russia for failing to leave exit corridors for refugees if those same exit corridors are blocked by Ukraine's State Border Guard Service.
The women and children fleeing Ukraine face plenty of trauma already without Zelenskyy compounding the problem by taking husbands and fathers away from wives and children.
If Biden means what he says about "freedom will prevail," he may want to ask Zelenskyy to give the dads and husbands who so desire the freedom to leave Ukraine.
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Doesn't the US still have the draft?
Glass houses, stones, etc.
We have a system in place to reinstate the draft, if need be, but there is no current draft, nor any provision preventing people registered for selective service to leave the US
Also I'm pretty sure Ira Stoll would advocate for eliminated the selective service as well, most of the Reason editors already do
No doubt they would advocate for it. Just saying the US would do exactly the same thing the Ukraine is doing if we were in that situation, so us telling them "hey, quit conscripting people" is a bit rich.
"us telling them"?!?!?!
No, this is an individual with no State authority expressing an opinion.
Last sentence of the article is a call for Joe Biden to get involved. Getting Joe Biden involved is always a bad idea, but beyond that it would be the US telling the Ukraine what to do in an official capacity.
US shouldn't be involved in any way whatsoever with the Ukraine vs Russia conflict
Agreed. Anytime Washington gets involved, the situation only worsens.
Except we promised to defend them in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons. This conflict would not be happening if Ukraine had its nukes.
Biden has along and sordid history of making a mess of things. He can't help it. He's an idiot.
Leave it to Joe Biden to f*** things up.
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Also, sadly, rulings by The Supremes on this subject have held that the draft is not slavery and involuntary servitude under the 13th Am3ndment.
Speaking for myself I am against the draft for moral, literal Constitutional , and practical reasons. A nation worth defending doesn't need a draft and indeed is endangered by having warriors who don't want to fight.
All that said, Ukrainians pissing on the sides of Putin's tanks don't need their number picked in a lottery. Keep it up, Ukes! 🙂
Technically no.
But we do have a program in place (Selective Service registration) that is intended to make it easier to enslave us should they choose to do so again.
Remember - *ALL REGISTRIES INEVITABLY LEAD TO SERVITUDE*
Ira Stoll doesn't have a draft.
Ira Stoll doesn't pretend he speaks for the country.
Ira Stoll is advocating for the POTUS to do something.
And I guess I should clarify; Ira is right that having conscription while claiming to fight for freedom is stupid.
I'm saying the US has no business being the one to try to deliver that message given our history with the draft and the fact that no one in power is interested in getting rid of it anytime soon. Let's clean up our own house before criticizing everyone else's, yes?
Ira Stoll is not the US and you are switching topics by saying "the US has no business....".
Except his very first statement was "Doesn't the US still have the draft?"
So that's like him switching topics, insofar as "he's not talking about what I want him to talk about "is equivalent to "he's switching topics". Very similar.
I laughed my ass off when she called it "inhumane".
Not really. Has been all volunteer for decades. (since Vietnam)
Drafting by lottery and then put through training and then being shipped out does not equal being held hostage to lie in wait.
At the end of the day one would think every man would be voluntarily staying to fight with the way the media and Z has portrayed this. It’s becoming hard to believe that the majority of Ukrainian ppl want this war when they are being forced to fight it. This doesn’t even include the whole letting ppl out of prison in Ukraine to fight as a way to pay their debt to society.
At least ppl could flee the country if they didn’t want to be drafted to fight in Vietnam….
If only people fighting for their survival had better principles.
This is such a great comment.
Unless you're one of the people who thinks staying to fight is a bad idea. Even John Wayne asked if anyone wanted to leave the Alamo before the battle.
The faggots of Reason are mostly the type of guys who run screaming when a car backfires.
Didn't we defend freedom with an army of conscripts some 80 years ago?
No. Several factions of slavers fought, allied with other slavers, and the alliance with the most genocidal slavers beat the alliance with the slightly less genocidal slavers.
More like one alliance of slavers had a member with geographic security that meant its factories couldn't be bombed, which allowed it to win the war by attrition.
Two members. And I'd hesitate to call a conflict with such fluid lines a war of attrition (except insofar as all wars fundamentally are).
What you linked to is either poorly written or this is some really good weed.
Shh, we're still trying to meddle in other people's governments for some reason. This is no time for history.
106 years ago
81 years ago
72 years ago
59 years ago (-ish, really hard to tell about this one)
Some were conscripts, to the point that all able bodied males were in the military. But the conscription wasn't needed because we could have fielded a sufficient military with just the volunteers.
We had conscription because it was a knee jerk reaction and we didn't know any better. Most prior wars weren't popular enough to attract volunteers of sufficient numbers ("let's go attack Mexico", "let's go attack the Philippines", "someone killed the archduck, let's go fight", etc). Even the Civil War wasn't all as popular for Northerners as some would have you believe. But December 7th someone attacked us, and their ally was rampaging all over our friends in Europe. So yeah, there would have been volunteers.
With conscription we actually had negative unemployment. But without it and the US being directly attacked, we would have sufficient volunteers to defeat Japan and halt Germany.
They could have got all of Nazi Germany and went further on to Communist Russia too if it weren't for Yalta. (Though it wouldn't have been good to stay encamped after the threat was gone.)
Are you sure? 3/4 of WW2 soldiers were conscripts.
Conscription wasn't necessary even then. Tennaged boys in the U.S. fudged their ages to get a chance to fight Mussolini, Hitler, and Hirahito! And fight like Hell they did!
Videos of the incident show the truck reversing into the gates and forcing them open as a number of protesters looked on. There were some shouts of “Bravo” and “Well done” from the group.
Mr Wisley then exited the vehicle and handed out photos of what he said were Russian atrocities in Ukraine.
“I just done this to create a safe corridor for the Russian ambassador to leave Ireland,” he said.
“I want the ambassador and his colleagues to leave this country, leave this free country,” he said. “It’s about time we stood up.”
Mr Wisley identified himself as a “working man” from Leitrim and commented that he is going to be arrested shortly.
“I’ve done my bit, lads. It’s about time the rest of Ireland done their bit,” he said as he was led away by gardaí.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/russia-accuses-ireland-of-failing-to-protect-embassy-after-truck-is-driven-through-gates-1.4820488
Damn! That's an act of war by itself! Now Ireland's gonna have fret on where they're going to get the space, food, and water for 2 million Russian POWs, B'Golly! 😉
With a shared fondness for drink and potatoes, the Russians and Irish would hit it off famously!
"Hit" being the operative term.
Well, yes…there’s pugilist aspects as well…As a nonviolent yank of Irish ancestry who spent two summers in Russia and speaks the language, I prefer not to dwell on the Donnybrook side Innit!
CAN'T? or you believe they shouldn't?
Damn, if only the Ukrainian Army would give up conscripts like the Russian A .... hey, wait a minute ... oh yeah.
Dumb Ass.
It's Cognitive Dissonance all around and all the way down....
'Cept for me, of course. What I am defending are the peaceful, friendly people in Ukraine, not their government.
Like, you guys at Reason know that Ukraine is not a liberal democracy, right? That they, like the rest of Europe (every state in Europe has conscription) are not about 'freedom' as we define it?
OMG! Do people really think Ukraine is the good guy here - rather than just another less bad guy?
No one is unalloyed "good". No one except you has said that. Ukraine is more good than Putin, in most people's minds; but opinion is not reality, and "good" is entirely subjective and not subject to measurement.
And who is "you guys at Reason"? Ira Stoll is an individual.
I didn't say that either. Maybe try responding to what I wrote rather than whatever conversation you're having in your head.
"the good guy" -- implies good or not good. Does not allow for various levels of good.
Fuck off, idiot.
And I still did not call anyone a good guy.
Again, read what I wrote, not the emotional screed you have in your head.
Consider Ukraine to be an eastern European third world country with barely livable wages and as usual, a corrupt government. Like most of the governments in the west. So yes Ukraine is following in the foot steps of the west by becoming just another corrupted nation, beholden to the bankers and with governmental leaders owned by Klaus Schwabe; just like Britain, Germany, France, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, The U.S.
Good point many European countries until just a few years ago required all males to serve and I think Israel requires everyone to serve. I know Israel is not European.
The Ukrainians fighting for their merest survival, as well as Liberty and Property are the good guys, no matter what corrupt shit there Government may have going.
I will say against Zelenskyy that no God exists who will give Putin and The Putineers their "Day Of Judgement." Give proper credit to the Ukrainians giving Putin and The Putineers their Earthly "Day Of Judgement" now!
Fighting for your survival does not make you a good guy.
I'm not saying I have a problem with Ukraine, but it's not a 'free' country - it's a typical Eastern European one. Stoll and others have a problem with Poland or Hungary (especially Hungary) because of *realistic* appraisals of their governments - but that's out the window here.
No nation is free by Libertarian standards, but staying alive will get you there much faster.
The first ideal of the Libertarian tryptych is "Life," after all. Without it, "Liberty" and "Property" are a little hard to aquiire. And "Pursuit of Happiness? Forget it!
Look, Ukraine can get tbe legal pot, the food trucks on the private curbsides,, and the same-sex marriage just as soon as they clean up from downing all those planes with RADAR scrambling drones and burning up all those tanks with Molotov Cocktails. Anyone who fights this damn hard better not get a return to the Statist ancien régime or there will be even more trouble!
Fret not, Ukraine can and will get there. If you like, "find the helpers" as Mister Rogers always recommended.
"(every state in Europe has conscription)"
That's absolutely false.
Yeah. Zelenski is a corrupt authoritarian dick. But he's a great mascot for the neocons.
He's been a central figure for the stupid/outrage culture that the progressives and left-leaning types favor, as well.
Stoll, FFS - *most* of the 'free world' has conscription.
I'd like Ira Stoll to try to leave the US without permission. Ukraine at least has good reason to need all the manpower it can get.
You justify slavery because the government demands it?
If the war is popular, they don't need conscription. If they need conscription, the war is not popular.
When the alternative is being conquered by a powerful neighbor, yes, it is justified. This isn't about popularity. This is about necessity.
Necessity is a defense for violating essentially any and every law and custom that exists. "We had to do this because anything else would be worse".
"We had to do this because anything else would be worse".
If even one Grandma can be saved...
Granny is prolly waiting in the celler with her canned goods, bottled water, cat litter bucket, radio, and 12 Gauge, ready to blow the shit out of any Spetznaz agent big and wide as a door who comes for her and the family!
Currious if you think Vaccine mandates are a nesessity?
Ben, if this were the case, they'd be conscripting everybody, not just men. And it would still be a violation of individual rights.
If the war is popular, they don't need conscription. If they need conscription, the war is not popular.
Except we had the draft during the last big Golden Crusade 80 years ago, even though enthusiasm to join up was so high, some high schools kids lied about their age to try and enlist.
The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. The argument you're putting forth only came about because of the rising backlash in mass media and academia against Vietnam.
Like the Viet Nam war, the war in 1917. Oh, I almost forgot, the War Between the States.....that is Lincoln's draft. Those who protested were shot.
Welcome to war, Reason. I know you like to pretend it's something that shouldn't and never really happens, but it is.
If people don't stay behind to protect their borders then the invaders will just move on to the next border. hey wait don't we have an invasion at the border also, lets conscript some people
"Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has barred men aged 18-60 from leaving the country."
What?!
Doesn't he know the most important thing in the world is for billionaires like Reason.com's benefactor Charles Koch to get even richer? And in order to do that they need to import cost-effective foreign-born labor?
#WorkingForKochIsMoreHonorableThanFightingForUkraine
#OpenBordersWillFixEverything
Not only that, but Ukraine has started their own Foreign Legion for people to join the fight. 16,000 have signed up already.
Actually, they can.
I had to check the byline to make sure Geiger didn't write this.
No, when you are facing annihilation, desperate times call for desperate measures. I recall a news clip from the Khmer Rouge takeover of Cambodia; it was young men playing with a ball in a school compound, as that was the way to protect your sons from military service [to enroll them in apparently bogus classes so as to classify them as a "student" who were deferred from the draft].
Boy that sure turned out well. They just all ended up in forced labor camps with an attached killing field. I am as freedom loving as the next libertarian, but when your ass is against the wall sometimes concessions just have to be made.
Except they aren't facing annihilation, they're facing:
-constitutional prohibition on joining NATO
-recognition of 3 regions' referendums on secession/independence
-ending their war on those regions
So they're really not facing annihilation, they're just facing annihilation as a sovereign country. Totally different.
Funny how this sovereignty idea keeps being thrown around in favor of oligarch leaders picking officials and binding their people to international agreements that do nothing for them.
Let's take NATO for example. You and I are now bound to support using our resources for war against a nuclear power if Russia bombs a Latvian airfield. But sovereignty is defended, so throw yourself on the grenade, peasant!
Reality is that, unless Ukraine wants to be at war forever, its politicians do not have the option to turn their country into a Trojan horse for its larger neighbor's enemies. The "I'm not touching you" style of geopolitics is nothing to be applauded.
The idea of that is to deter Russia from violating Lativia's sovereignty in the first, or any other of our allies. What won't you surrender if Russia threatens nuclear war? Is there any line at which you will say "No"?
Why aren't you in Ukraine fighting right now?
You are dodging the question. This was not about Ukraine, this was about the US's NATO commitments.
Do you seriously believe Ukraine is a sovereign state? really?
Do you seriously believe that because America has a number of bio weapons labs located inside Ukraine, that Washington is not pulling the strings?
That because of the Maiden/ color revolution created by the Obama/ Hillary administration which installed these neo nazi thugs, there are no strings attached?
Ukraine would be better off as a neutral state without outside interference, especially from Washington.
We don't have to "make concessions" as you put it. Every gun aimed at conscripting Ukrainians is one less gun aimed at Putin and the Putineers. Besides, they may be staying home protecting children and the infirm.
Ignore those who don't want to fight for whatever reason and focus on getting that Spetznatz troop out of your cabbages.
LOL and who CAN defend Ukraine. I bet I know.
Themselves and they are doing it splendidly.
Now please step aside, Elvis. Your rhinestones may draw sniper attention. 😉
https://twitter.com/TheLastRefuge2/status/1500909452261744644?t=TA6YDnSkH-7xy5VmLC7vJg&s=19
JFC, the media is even making up words/phrases to help beatify Zelenskyy. Now admit he never said, "need ammo, not ride".
Is there anything truthful about Ukraine? Anything?
[Link]
There's really no reason to believe anything coming out of that region right now. BOF SYDEZ are heavily curating news reports for maximum propaganda effect, with the US effectively trying to cancel an entire country on our side over invading a country that's nothing more than a good customer for our weapons and a money-laundering location for our elites.
The US is acting right now just like a hysterical Twitter mob. They even supposedly threatened India, a neutral country, with sanctions if they kept buying shit from Russia, which is fucking stupid because India buys most of its weapons from there in a relationship that goes back to Nehru.
It's a tough call. Facing invasion that threatens your sovereign existence probably forces you to make a lot of tough and unsavory choices. We haven't faced anything similar in 80 years and even then it is debatable how much our sovereignty was threatened by the Axis powers, as we had two vast oceans, a large economy, a large population and lots of land to trade for time. Ukraine has none of these things. So, it is difficult for Americans to even come close to analyze how we would respond in a similar situation.
"So, it is difficult for Americans to even come close to analyze how we would respond in a similar situation."
Indeed. Less than 40% of the military during WW2 were volunteers, in war which directly affected American interests, it would seem. On the other hand, 70% of the people who served during the Vietnam war were volunteers (for a war which would, or seem to be, at least, have much less to do with the USA than WW2.
It's a question if we needed that high a draft, many individuals didn't volunteer because they knew they were going to get drafted anyhow. As the war drug on the age of draftees dropped considerably to, to such a degree that many young men got drafted before they even had a chance to volunteer.
Yes. That occurred to me as a possibility. I know that no one in my family was drafted, (against their will, at any rate). Yet two of my three uncles served. The third had contracted scarlet fever when he was young, along with a heart condition, and unable to serve. My dad volunteered during Korea, but he was too young during WW2. He served eight years.
My Mom's Dad volunteered, but due to his age, being a single father and his occupation (logger and miner) he was not allowed to join. His younger brother served but not sure if he was drafted or volunteered. He did volunteer to go back in during Korea. My Dad's uncle also served, but again not sure if he volunteered or was drafted. His father didn't enter the army until 1946, as he didn't turn 18 until that year. Based upon the years both my great-uncles entered the Army, I would probably bet they were drafted. The entered in 1943, and by that time the draft was in full swing and they probably didn't have time after turning 18 to volunteer before getting their draft notice.
+++
Forcing other people to fight for your sovereign existence is inherently immoral. Sovereignty gains it's legitimacy from the people it rules. If the people it rules don't consider the sovereign status of an area worth their lives, then the sovereign status isn't worth their lives.
It is good as a slogan, much less relevant when you're being invaded and the invader is even less liberty minded than you are.
+2
This is ethically fairly tough, on the individual level. The violation of human rights is clear enough, but the choice of living under a new, possibly worse government, or being forced to fight by one's current government?
So the can't defend themselves with an army of conscripts but can be conquered by an army of conscripts?
But of course. Makes perfect sense.
Probably relevant
https://twitter.com/JordanSchachtel/status/1500925307611762695?t=I2q9Gbppf6K5vzaFrHCUOw&s=19
Are we allowed to talk about how the Ukrainian secret service executed their own peace talks negotiator or nah?
Yep. After admitting to murdering him for alleged treason, they now say he is a national hero and should be honored.
[Link]
Nardz, what point are you trying to make exactly? Are you explicitly trying to defend the invasion of Ukraine?
So what are you saying? Because the government of Ukraine engaged in duplicity they just have it coming to them?
I am not saying this is simple [because none of it is] but the point of the discussion, I believe, is whether it is necessary and justifiable for a country to conscript it's military aged citizens to fight on their behalf, when the barbarians are at or [in this case] have breached the gate.
Or is it better Red [or fascist, etc.] than dead?
I'm saying the Ukraine government and western politicians/press have been lying about pretty much everything
No less than the Russians. It's all lies, or more likely on our media parts, a combination of confirmation bias, selective reporting and selective amnesia. I am not sure lying is the best description as lying implies they are aware of their misinformation and deliberately misrepresenting it, whereas I think they aren't consciously aware of it, but it fits their narrative so they aren't questioning it (sic their narrative).
In 1994, Ukraine had the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world.
They signed an agreement with the US, Russia and the UK to trade the nukes for $2.5 billion of debt cancellation and promises of sovereignty.
Six words from "Animal House" spring immediately to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTF2j0OWUi8
So Ukraine's sovereignty soon disappeared at the hands of Obomber/Hillary administration with Vicky Nudelman handing out cookies to neo-nazi thugs.
So this is the outcome of another of Washington's meddling in foreign affairs.
There's another apt phrase from Animal House in response to that one.
"Don't get mad, get even".
I would suggest that Ira Stoll read Article 29 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, which outlines the explicit caveats to the rest of the document, before he relies on it too much.
It has always bee the conundrum of (relatively) liberal states on what to do when faced with an existential threat. How much does one compromise to meet it to at least preserve something. It is not as if Putin's regime cares much about these niceties.
Putin has now issued a number of conditions in which he will cease hostilities immediately. Zelensky now has been given a clear choice.
One of those is for Ukraine to remain neutral. That means no NATO base, no U.S. bioweapons labs anywhere inside the country and no U.S./NATO involvement in Ukraine politics.
The problem is Zelensky is a WEF/ Klaus Schwabe stooge, like Merkel and Macron. Like Trudeau and Newsom, He is merely a puppet a marionette withstrings that make him dance to what ever tune the WEF/DAVOS crowd calls out. So he is bound to refuse any peace offerings no matter how many people are killed and injured. In fact, the more killed off the better, right?
Zelensky is just another thug placed in power by Washington and the MSM continues to cover for this creep.
No one should take anything CNN or MSNBC says about this tragic business, or neither Washington.
You have made that tin foil hat too tight.
Does Putin's might make right?
Does Washington's power make it right? Does America have the right to intervene in the sovereign affairs of other states?
This is the result of another miscalculation by Washington as it has done in the past, so many times it can't be counted.
The Ukraine is just the latest.
One miscalculation after another. All of them with deadly consequences.
You are positing that Moscow has a right to interfere in the sovereign affairs of Ukraine. You seem quite content with Putin getting what he wants.
The "America is always wrong" analysis is tiresome.
You seem to ignore the long and dismal history of American interventionism that has produced little if any positive results.
Wasted lives, wasted treasury and loss of credibility.
American exceptionalism is a false pretense.
Agreed, and it has exposed some shockingly superficial analysis on the far left, even by people who are not as yet suspected of being Russian ops.
The Bernie socialists don't even have a foreign policy as far as I can tell other than "American bad too!" It's all a distraction from their supposed revolution that will pay off their college bills. (This from people who have never interacted with real working class people outside of a restaurant or Home Depot.)
Missing is the acknowledgment that, especially when you're a superpower, sometimes foreign policy leaves you with nothing but shitty options, and while sometimes America has chosen really terribly, many of the things these people bitch about (especially under Clinton and Obama) were actually, probably, the least shitty options at the time.
Then of course there's the great physical pain to their bowels that seems to happen when Biden does something they can't argue with, like withdrawing from Afghanistan. It really is just a cult of Bernie. You people have nothing to fear from socialists, I tell you.
Socialists fall into three categories: 1. stupidly naive idealists, 2. those who resent having to produce some contribution to society in order to earn their living, 3. power hungry grifters politically exploiting the first two.
They are a cancer in the body politic.
^ this is absolutely correct.
I fear socialists not how I would fear a fighter coming to knock my head off, but as one would fear an insidious, untreatable cancer. Knowing that it will slowly rot and eat away at everything it gets near.
"...an insidious, untreatable cancer. Knowing that it will slowly rot and eat away at everything it gets near."
I see you've met Tony [aka "Raspberry Dinners"] and Queen Asshole.
Imagine thinking Ukraine was a free country to begin with.
Patience, patience. It'll get better once Putin and the Putineers are sent running. Then, we can celebrate with Sinsimillia, Guliash Burritos, and wedding night bliss with the partner(s) of your choice
Gosh and here I thought Ukraine was a model democracy, practically a libertarian state! Isn’t that why the West is so obsessed with it?
Indeed. This fine model of democracy has spent the last number of years committing acts of ethnic cleansing in the Donbass region by murdering over ten thousand Russians living there. Russians who had been living in that region for hundreds of years.
Conscripts fighting conscripts at the behest of the ruling class. The West and US is not much better than Putin. True that a missile launched is worse than a threat, but the west and US did provoke a reaction.
Why only the men? It’s International Women’s Day. Shouldn’t the fight for equal rights extend to fighting for one’s country?
Kidding not kidding.
The sons of the rich and connected left Ukraine weeks ago.
Same old, same old.
Ukraine has never had any freedoms. Or haven't you been paying attention to the last 100 years.
This point of view, that your country owes you security and prosperity, but you have no responsibility in return, is a little surprising.
For Ukrainians, this is not about whether they should fight in a war halfway around the world. They are literally facing hordes of the same bolsheviks that their grandparents fought 90 years ago.
When the Russians invade, pretending they are not there is not a viable option. Hard choices need to be made, and none of the options are going to be pleasant.
Requiring fit people to participate in the defense of their families and lives is not optimal, but neither is having everything you care about destroyed by the Russians. Again.
There are still people living in Ukraine who watched their neighbors resort to cannibalism because of the famine deliberately forced upon them by Russians.
I think one important lesson of the 20th century is that being conquered by the Russians is worse than whatever steps you need to take to defend yourself from them.
That includes asking people to participate in their own defense.
One thing that is never going to happen is people, when finally forced by starvation to cook and eat their own dead child, expressing relief that at least they never had to compromise their libertarian principals.
speaking of....
The "blind dissemination of wea0ons," as you call it is precisely what's needed to make conscription unnecessary.
Also, if the central government in Kyiv is overtaken by Putin, conscription by Ukrainian government just gives Putin more "human resources" to use for further conquest. An armed civilian citizenry much harder to keep in line...and itdoing it right now!
Arming the people is what makes occupying a country too expensive to contemplate. The militia doesn't even have to be well organized for it to work.
+++
Yep. Nothing speaks "libertarian" like being forced by the government to give one's life for the "common good."
I may just not be as pure on libertarian principles as you are.
Ok, not spoiling for a pissing match [we have more than enough of those hereabouts]; I get the reality that Ukraine is screwed and will have to submit:
" 1. Ukraine halt its military activity, 2. change its Constitution to include neutrality so it can't join the EU or NATO, 3. recognize Crimea as Russian territory and recognize independence for the separatist regions of Donetsk and Lugansk."
They don't have much of a choice, and will either continue to exist as semi autonomous under the shadow of the Russian Bear or look forward to living amongst rubble while maintaining an endless war of insurgency with little hope of wearing down an autocracy. And no one but some aspiring volunteers are going to come to their aid, not against a country with a vast nuclear arsenal.
I suspect at this point Zelenskyy just wants to be able to say that they fought a good fight before giving in. But nonetheless we live in a world of assholes with the power to make us suffer, and there are times for what you call a "golden exception." WWII being an example of such.
As for the current state of the world, our exception will be to shore up our allies as Putin is going to play the old game of brinksmanship and take whatever he can accordingly. At the same time I think it is stupid to encourage EU or NATO membership to countries [like Georgia and Moldova] that do not represent our interests, other than unnecessarily pissing off the Russians.
IOW, the cold war is back.
You can’t live your libertarian life when your country is taken over by a dictatorial nutcase with a huge secret police organization.
Doesn't make him any less correct.
If that's what Ukraine wants to do, it's their problem not mine.
No, there isn't. In fact, the whole point of ending the draft wasn't to placate the hippies, it was because conscripts are, on average, utter shit compared to volunteers, who want to be there, or mercenaries, who are well-paid to be there.
You don't want to put conscripts in the field unless you need cannon fodder, or are absolutely desperate. You put them in the rear with the supply depots, or maintenance, or desk jobs. These are the guys who will lose your army battles because they'll be the most likely to freak out and run once the bullets start flying.
Is there anything libertarian about allowing a foreign power to invade you and force a government on you that doesn't respect individual liberties? It's easy to debate empty slogans and political hypotheticals, it's far harder when you and your way of life is threatened. You would hope that people would volunteer in large enough numbers that a draft wouldn't be necessary but what if they don't? Many people talk tough and are willing for others to die for freedom but won't do it themselves. We haven't been invaded by a larger country since 1815, so it's easy for us to debate the abstracts. Hell, we are the third largest population with the third largest land area country in the world, we really don't even comprehend the threat. It's easy for us, with our two large oceans, and land borders with countries with much smaller populations to say that conscription in the face of an invasion is inhumane and anti-libertarian. And it very well could be both, but I don't think getting conquered by a more despotic nation is anymore libertarian.
How Americans would respond falls in a variety of sections, based on class, for a lack of better term. The white collar, strictly 'professional' laptop' pajama classes would likely protest, hashtag, but surrender, with a few exceptions, none of note. The working classes, some of the same, but more effective response, resistance, refusal. One need only look at the covid hysteria and compare.
When I was drafted in 1971, no one threatened my family.
I suspect it looks and feels a lot like annihilation to those in the midst of it [as documented in Rommelman's article earlier today]. If our or any country is invaded I have to concede that democratic libertarianism will not win the day. You may not believe in conscripts and forcing people to go to war, but your enemy does; and failure to adequately respond just opens the door and encourages them to come in.
"We're all in this together!
Put your mask back on peasant!"
"living amongst rubble while maintaining an endless war of insurgency with little hope of wearing down an autocracy."
This is literally the plan from the globalist caste. The Syria/Afghanistan model.
All this needn't have happened if the Obama/ Hillary administration has minded its own business.
If Washington no longer meddled in the affairs of other sovereign nations.
The history of Washington's interventionist policies are long and sad. Absolutely nothing good has ever resulted in America's interventionism.
You and Geiger are both wrong about Ukraine being hopeless. There are many things civilians can do, even against a power with tactical nuke-armed fighter planes and bombers!
In WWII, Aluminum foil confetti was used to create interference with RADAR. Perhaps Ukrainians could have a drive for a Pee-Wee Herman foil ball, gather up their shredders and high-speed fans and have a little party for their uninvited guests! Maybe re-rig automobile RADAR detectors and scramblers to a different purpose of jamming figgter planes with parabolic antennae.
Also, it's a serious U.S. Federal offense to aim LASER pointers at airlines and create RF interference with aircraft. Who knows what kitty's favorite distraction might do to fighter planes? Anybody know or care to find out?
And since Ukrainians throughout this War have been so good at sarcasm and insults, what if they used air-visible ugly libels and slanders written in luminous paint over vital infrastructure for Russian supply lines or command posts? Hmmm....
And what if Ukraine had a drone club that could use drones to carry Radio Frequency interference scramblers tuned on Putineers' military frequencies? Or which could drop Aluminum foil confetti and leaflets of georgeous Russian women at Red Square over Putin's troops, or even carry hand grenades that could explode in mid-air?
With drones that jam Putineers' communications and RADAR, and at a size so small, the Putineer pilots would be literally flying blind and not know what hit them.
The drones could do nice formation work, I'm sure, but would be an even worse threat if each drone was independently owned and operated and just all flew in a random swarm at low altitude!
It wouldn't even matter if the drones crashed into each other as long as they rained deadly shrapnel and sexy leaflets on Putineers below. Putin's fighter pilots might even mistake the explosions for enemy fire and then shoot down other Putineers with "friendly fire."
If Putineer fighter pilots and heliocopter pilots encountered these radio-jamming, RADAR-jamming, psy-war-waging, self-destroying drones, they would have only a few options:
1.) To get out of the drones' element by either flying above the drones and risk getting caught by Ukraine RADAR and fighter plane fire;
2.) Finding a way to jam the drones all at once (almost impossible if they are each using their own frequency or controlled by Spread-Spectrum Transmission smartphones or satellite phones,) or
3.) Fly back home to Russia in retreat!
Oh, and low-flying drones with explosives would pose a serious danger and deterrent against High-altitude, Low-Opening (HALO) paratroopers in addition to fighter planes.
Any way it goes, Putin's Top Gunners may have minds writing checks that their bodies can't cash against these simple electronic jammer-equipped, demoralizing, weaponized drones!
Another thing to rememer about fighter planes and bombers: No matter how much they've changed modern warfare, 32 feet per second is still 32 feet per second. Keep them from landing and they'll run out of fuel and fall from the skies! One sure wayto do that is so knock out the runway lights of the airstrip and the generator that powers them.
Slingshots will do it for the lights, and technical acumen will do it for the generator, as well as electricity-powered appliances and engine-powered vehicles.
Remember, any machine is that it has five basic components: The Energy Source/Fuel, the Switch/Starter/Controls, the Engine/Motor, the Drive, and the Application towards which the machine works. Disrupt and tinker with, take apart, and ruin these components, and the machine no longer works.
With anything that runs off of a mechanical engine, it requires a spark, fuel, and oxygen in just the right timing and measure. If anything interferes with these, the engine is dead.
Anything that runs off of electricity requires sufficient Voltage, Amperage, and Wattage and a complete, uncrossed circuit. If the Voltage runs down, the Amperage encounters too much resistance or conversely blows a fuse, the Wattage isn't sufficient, and the circuit is broken or shorted, the device is dead.
And just think: I stay up nights thinking up stuff like this!
Be careful, Watch your Six, and otherwise, have fun with all this, fellow freedom-fighters everywhere! ????
I'm curious what a libertarian regime would do to socialists.
Or you can just spend a little while fighting as a conscript, with the risk of injury or death, as opposed to living the rest of your life, and those you care about living the rest of their lives, ruled by a government that has no concern at all whether you live or die, and would be happy to conscript you forever.
It's doubleplusgood!
Or unless you are absolutely desperate... Which may be the state Ukraine is currently in.
Well you can dwell in your mental world of just actions righteous results; but as we see the world of reality is no such place.
It's like the pacifist paradox; I don't believe in violence so I'm going to let you deal with if for me. You may then have blood on your hands, but none for me thanks!
Your plan seems to be for them to offer a tyrant their throats.
Would you bend the knee?
No one would have threatened my family.
Nardz: best laugh I have had today 🙂
His possibly, but not his family's. Never happened.
And arresting for dodging the draft were more an exception than the norm, from the Civil War on, in the US.
I remember a number of young men who drove off into Canada to avoid being drafted and sent to Viet Nam, McNamara's folly. A great many of those drafted were from poor households.
McNamara also sent young men with low IQ and mental disabilities to that hell hole. Most of them never returned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=_J2VwFDV4-g
Jerry B.
March.7.2022 at 2:52 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
When I was drafted in 1971, no one threatened my family.
Geiger Goldstaedt
March.7.2022 at 4:11 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Arrest?
Seems you missed the point of the comment you were replying to then.
"at the point of the gun, or with their families being threatened."
Yes you most certainly did mention families. So his wasn't a non-sequitor, it was a clear path from what you said to what his reply was.
No, I highlighted the section that showed you did mention families. Even if I referenced every word you posted, it is still obvious you were drawing an analogy between the Taliban policies and the Ukraine's policy and possibly US selective service policies.
I didn't misrepresent your statement, I highlighted why John's response wasn't a non-sequitor as you maintain. Even by quoting your entire post, it doesn't discredit my responses. Or John's.
You didn't have to, because the subject of US selective service had already been introduced multiple times in the comment section.
Are their liberties completely eviscerated or suspended? From US experience with the draft, as soon as they're discharged, they receive full liberties back. So, it doesn't appear eviscerated is correct, but suspended is more correct.
That's the whole point, it is not clear cut it is entirely hypothetical that America is unlikely to ever have to deal with. It's easy for us to judge, when we will never have to face this circumstance.
Nor do I; and this is why a lot of guys chose to join the Marines or units like the Airborne, because they figured they might be able to count on their brothers vs some puke who didn't have any desire to be there.
But when you are against the wall, the chips are down, and their in the gate, what the hell do you do?
There is a candidate for the single most idiotic comment on this forum this year.
I'm not willing to fight to the last Ukrainian to protect one group of corrupt oligarch investments in the west vs corrupt oligarchs tied to the east, but it doesn't have much to do with me anyway.
Well it doesn't unless Zelensky gets his way.
It's only March. Someone is already thinking 'hold my beer'.
So to avoid that, you want the Ukrainians to accept a Russian leash.
How principled of you.
Based upon our past, we can make an educated guess what it would be like if we faced the same situation. I doubt it would much different in Ukraine. If by some miracle they beat the Russians, then do they really want to disaffect of whole bunch of combat hardened veterans, who've already fought one tyrant to protect their liberties? Self preservation alone states it wouldn't be in the Ukrainian government's best interests to deny them the full return of their previous liberties.
It isn't any surprise that the period following WW2 and Korea saw the civil rights movement. Blacks served in both at high rates, and demanded their liberties after getting home. Even after the Civil War, blacks were granted a lot of civil rights (that eventually, due to some really bad court cases) were rolled back, but the blacks most impacted by this rollback weren't veterans for the most part
WW1 didn't have nearly as many blacks involved, but even then, it did lead to some pretty extreme pushback against southern policies.
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Seems like just posting mean tweets would be a lot less complicated. I mean Trump's tweets were so effective he literally started WW3.
Gaear, Trump's tweets have nothing on Citizen resistance to tyranny. That is what stops death camps, Iron Curtains, and World Wars.
"I don't know"
When I was a kid we called that a "copout"
Some people who continue to believe in American exceptionalism.
Then ignore history.
Or is it denial?