San Jose's Insurance Requirement Is Privatized Gun Control
Politicians deputize the private sector to restrict rights protected from the government.

Deputizing private parties to restrict liberty has become popular among politicians constrained by constitutional protections for individual rights. They get to target personal freedom without explicitly restricting anything, like a bratty kid waving his hands around a sibling's face while chanting "I'm not touching you!" The latest such example is the San Jose, California, city government, which insists that it is "constitutionally compliant" in requiring gun owners to purchase liability insurance and to pay an "annual gun harm reduction fee" to exercise a right specifically protected by the Second Amendment.
"Tonight San José became the first city in the United States to enact an ordinance to require gun owners to purchase liability insurance, and to invest funds generated from fees paid by gun owners into evidence-based initiatives to reduce gun violence and gun harm," San Jose Mayor Sam Liccardo boasted in a January 25 statement. "Thank you to my council colleagues who continue to show their commitment to reducing gun violence and its devastation in our community. I am deeply grateful also to our advocacy and legal partners with Cotchett, Pitre & McCarthy, LLP, EveryTown, Moms Demand Action, SAFE, the Gifford Law Alliance and many others who work tirelessly to help us craft a constitutionally compliant path to mitigate the unnecessary suffering from gun harm in our community. I look forward to supporting the efforts of others to replicate these initiatives across the nation."
There's a lot to unravel in that smug statement, including the assumption that firearms ownership imposes costs and not benefits, as well as the assertion that requiring people to carry liability insurance and pay fees to the government in order to exercise a right specifically enumerated in the Second Amendment is somehow constitutionally compliant. None of what Liccardo says is well-grounded in reality. But he's especially sensitive to the idea that imposing costs on gun owners is an example of government overreach.
"This isn't actually governmental regulation," Liccardo insisted to NPR last week. "This is private sector regulation. This is insurance companies. Insurance companies have been regulating safety of automobiles for five decades, and as a result, we all have seen per mile deaths drop dramatically over the last five decades because we have air bags and anti-lock brakes and so forth that insurance companies incentivize drivers to go buy."
That's a common comparison for gun prohibitionists and it doesn't improve with repetition. For starters "the right to bear arms" enjoys specific constitutional protections, unlike car ownership. Then there's the fact that, like many places, California doesn't require insurance and registration for vehicles used only on private property or transported by trailer. If the Second Amendment didn't protect gun ownership, that might make car insurance and fee requirements comparable to burdens on people carrying concealed weapons, but not to those placed on people keeping guns in their homes and taking them to a range.
Even worse is that automobile regulation is an unfortunate example of how burdensome restrictions can become on activities that don't enjoy specific protection. From tags and taxes we've moved on to inspections and fuel-economy requirements, and now politicians propose mandating interlock technology that prevents vehicles from starting if built-in sensors detect alcohol in our bodies. This isn't a path to follow, it's a warning of what might be in store.
That's especially true when politicians coyly deputize private parties to impose restrictions that they are prevented from putting into law. The San Jose city government's restrictionist agenda is obvious from the list of gun control organizations Liccardo thanks in his press release. The clear assumption is that imposing fees and insurance requirements will create new barriers to owning firearms. Insurance companies may be on-board with that mission, or the heavily regulated industry may just succumb to government pressure to cooperate. This wouldn't be the first time the private sector has been put in that role.
"I am directing the Department of Financial Services to urge insurers and bankers statewide to determine whether any relationship they may have with the NRA or similar organizations sends the wrong message to their clients and their communities who often look to them for guidance and support," then-New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo urged in a 2018 statement.
"The NRA alleges that Cuomo and top members of his administration abused their regulatory authority over financial institutions to threaten New York banks and insurers that associate with the NRA or other 'gun promotion' groups, and that those threats have jeopardized the NRA's access to basic insurance and banking services in New York," the ACLU responded. "In the ACLU's view, targeting a nonprofit advocacy group and seeking to deny it financial services because it promotes a lawful activity (the use of guns) violates the First Amendment."
Leaning on the private sector to lean on people you don't like because politicians aren't allowed to lean on them directly is "constitutionally compliant" only in a brat's "I'm not touching you" sense. It's an end-run around legal protections for the exercise of individual rights.
The problems with requiring people to pay fees and carry insurance to exercise their rights might be more obvious if the San Jose city government had imposed its rules on journalists and bloggers. Liability insurance and annual fees would be obvious infringements of First Amendment rights if smugly imposed as an effort to offset the supposed harms caused by alleged disinformation and misinformation. Then again, Liccardo and company might consider that a clever idea after all.
"In a new trend, many governments have sought to shift the burden of censorship to private companies and individuals by pressing them to remove content, often resorting to direct blocking only when those measures fail," Freedom House warned in 2015. "Local companies are especially vulnerable to the whims of law enforcement agencies and a recent proliferation of repressive laws. But large, international companies like Google, Facebook, and Twitter have faced similar demands due to their significant popularity and reach."
Since then, privatized authoritarianism has only proliferated. We now commonly see demands that companies boot disfavored speakers coming from sources as highly placed as the White House. Politicians who think it's fine to conscript private businesses into muzzling their opponents were never going to balk at drafting those same firms into helping them to disarm the public. Rather than submit, people who care about liberty need to exercise it in defiance of out-sourced efforts at control.
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"In a new trend, many governments have sought to shift the burden of censorship to private companies and individuals by pressing them to remove content, often resorting to direct blocking only when those measures fail," Freedom House warned in 2015. "Local companies are especially vulnerable to the whims of law enforcement agencies and a recent proliferation of repressive laws. But large, international companies like Google, Facebook, and Twitter have faced similar demands due to their significant popularity and reach."
Am argument ignored by Reason since 2015.
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"The clear assumption is that imposing fees and insurance requirements will create new barriers to owning firearms."
I love that this lefty set up a classist system where only the rich will be able to afford this constitutional right.
Like government hiring private security to break into your house and go through your shit without a warrant. This is a violation of the fourth amendment as surely as if the government were doing the searching itself.
Except it ignores Section 230 and Reason's support for it.
Like the government hiring a private security firm to break into your house and go through your shit without a warrant *and then* insist that you can't sue the security firm who's just protecting its customers'/investors' interests *and then* have Reason describe the whole situation as how free association is supposed to work in the internet age.
That's not what Section 230 does.
Well if Texas and Virginia can mobilize private citizens to spy on, report and sue their neighbors, with no push back from legal authorities, why can't San Jose? Is it ony states that can turn citizens into vigilantes for fun and profit- in Texas if you lose your suit against an abortion enabler, there are no costs imposed. In Va, you can leave anonymous tips about teachers who violate the state ban on masks or teaching CRT or promoting literature or flims that "make students uncomfortable" without having to back up your tip with any specific incident. The state will investigate the charge for you and if you are a librarian attempt to bring charges. At least San Jose is facing a real problem with guns and violence and attempting to deal with it instead of creating laws to harass fellow citizens who hold different opinions on what their Constitutional Rights are with relation to freedom to read what they like and the right to privacy. One shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose which rights to protect from vigilantes. The answer is all of them.
If it is recognized as wrong for Texas and Virginia to do it to restrict legal abortion, it should be recognized as wrong for San Jose to do it to punish law abiding gun owners.
I am pro-life and pro-gun and think Texas, Virginia and California are all wrong to try to restrict constitutional rights that may be abused by using subterfuges that only affect those willing to abide by the law. These sneak attacks lower my respect for law, politicians and government and re-inforce what I learned about government power when Mom and Dad took me to the drive-in to see "1984" and "The Gamma People".
Malum prohibitum laws create black markets in the prohibited good or service, assure access to totally unregulatable black markets for the abusers, and criminalize previously law abiding users. Malum prohibitum laws degrade public respect for the law and do more harm than good in the long run.
where is abortion granted as a right in the constitution?
Abortion is not a right. Gun ownership is.
Gun ownership is an *enumerated* right. Abortion may or may not be depending on government's *enumerated powers*. However, one can't say something is not a right simply because it is not enumerated -- To do so flies in the face of the 9th amendment.
Coming soon to a Kabuki theater near you: Free speech "Harm reduction fees" and free speech insurance! Do NOT, for example, hurt the ex-POTUS's Precious Baby Feelings, by asserting that He lost the elections, and is a SORE LOSER!!! That HARMS Him, so your insurance will need to PAY UP!!!!
And certainly, do not say "Let's go Brandon" to the current president. That's worse than Pearl Harbor and the Civil War combined.
Agreed! BOTH SIDES want to abuse us for THEIR power!
Speaking of authorizing private parties to do your dirty work for you... The "R" party in Texas has GOT to be the biggest recent offender! Let's let TOTALLY unrelated (and TOTALLY not-impacted) private parties sue concerning womb-control (womb-evictions).
True facts. Will the Texas "Libertarian" Party have the guts to revive the original LP party plank? “We further support the repeal of all laws restricting voluntary birth control or voluntary termination of pregnancies during their first hundred days.” Or will they trample women along with the Trumpistas?
Except abortion is not a right and deprives the baby of their rights.
And what will happen to insurance companies that dare to actually offer this "liability insurance"? So drearily predictable.
"We'll get you, and your little dog too!"
Seemed apropos.
Operation Chokepoint.
The thing is this law loses easily on 1a grounds as the fees go towards funding the speech of ant gun groups. The law specifies funds for these groups through the fees. So they are making gun owners speak in ways they don't choose to.
It won't even get to the poll tax like costs put on gun owners.
It may lose on 1A grounds a decade from now. Meanwhile, tobacco companies are forced to fund huge anti-tobacco campaigns.
I vaguely remember some city (San Francisco?) trying to tax sidewalk newspaper vending boxes on the grounds they were proliferating so much as to make crossing streets dangerous. Years and years ago. It got thrown out as being a tax directed at an enumerated right. I have no idea how the legal system has addressed this since, and there is an ammunition tax spent on wildlife conservation which would seem to be a violation justifying this further violation.
NRA already offers liability insurance. I wonder if San Jose will find that acceptable.
The Left has campaigned against insurance that includes legal coverage for attorney's fees if you have to defend yourself in a self-defense incident. They call that "insurance to help gun nuts kill people and get away with it".
They call it “murder insurance “
The NRA program got canceled as it was an actual insurance product.
What is sold as carry insurance is actually a pre paid legal program and not insurance at all.
Everyone who carries a gun should have this kind of “insurance”.
Simply displaying a gun to a criminal to deter a crime is a potential felony in most jurisdictions.
If an anti gun prosecutor charges you with brandishing, or aggravated assault, or whatever that state calls a defensive display you are looking at a lawyers retainer of $15,000
If you fired that gun, your retainer to defend against attempted murder or manslaughter will be $30,000.
The legal fees to go to trial will easily be $250,000.
A mistrial and a second trial will cost extra.
Appeals after a conviction cost extra.
U.S. law shield and Ccw safe both offer this protection for about $400 per year.
New York State went after the NRA insurance programs to provide legal coverage for self defenders.
Couldn't they just pass a gun tax and call it a day?
They tried, but struggled with it being constitutionally illegal.
Unable to change laws and expunge liberties to suit in this case as they would like, Dems are trying an end run with semantics.
F'n A. As if we can't follow cause and effect one step back. Gimme a break.
It has the gun tax part... what do you think the fees are.
I thought Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections ruled it illegal to exercise poll taxes because it imposed a wealth requirement on a constitutionally protected right.
It did.
It applies with equal force to the 2nd Amendment.
"Gun owner's insurance" will drive up costs to feed the parasites, is all... More of the same as is already going on, as in below...
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/03/1033950752/remington-subpoenas-the-school-records-of-children-slain-at-sandy-hook
From above…
“In July, Remington offered a $33 million settlement. The plaintiffs have yet to respond to the offer, the Post says.”
Remington is being held responsible for the doings of a gone-bonkers user of its product… Classic “Punish Party A for the doings of Party B”.
This injustice being applied to guns will screw us innocent gun owners (in violation of our 2A rights, guns and ammo will start costing bazillions of dollars from us, to pay for all the lawsuits).
Even if Remington is found innocent (in accordance with 2A), they still had to shell out for lawyers!
Yeah, process as punishment.
Seems rather wrong that cases like that that are clearly absurd go far enough that is seems worth it to settle for $30 million. Seems like it should never go that far.
the problem with settling is anti gunners use it as proof of guilt by gun manufacture and it never ends until there are no more manufactures
... until there are no more legal manufacturers.
Guns are very simple mechanisms. They can be built from junk by an Afghan peasant with a vise, files, hand drill. They can also be stolen, bribed, or extorted from military or police sources. Bonnie Clyde used BARs from NG armories, John Dillinger used tommy guns stolen from Illinois PDs, Ma Barker and Sons bought stolen military machine guns from fences. Gun prohibitions end up with a number of previously legal guns dumped on the black market.
I grew up 1953-1968, five to twenty year old, under a regime of local option alcohol prohibition. 1961 I bought a collection of Poe writings including one of his Marginalia notes: "`He that is born to be a man,' says Wieland in his Peregrinus Proteus, `neither should nor can be anything nobler, greater, or better than a man.' The fact is, that in efforts to soar above our nature, we invariably fall below it. Your reformist demigods are merely devils turned inside out."
This is more like hiring Pinkertons to run people off their land so the railroad can come through. This "insurance" will only exist because the government requires it. If it had any value to the customer, it would already exist in the private market.
The insurance already exists, includes $1000000 liability plus gun right lawyer referral, costs $120/year. For $180/year, you also get expert witnesses and similar.
Not that I would purchase it myself for my guns that I accidentally dropped in the lake while fishing, but the product actually does exist.
This is generally for CC permit holders. There isn't many in San Jose I imagine. San Jose is targeting all gun owners, even Fudd's SXS for chukar hunting
Correct; I have such a policy specifically because I am a concealed carry holder, and in the highly unlikely but invariably tragic event of ever having to use it, you do not want to be alone [or unfunded] in that.
Wait, what? Your gun hasn't gone off and killed hundreds of people on its own yet? WTF?
I would guarantee that the insurance you are talking about is not what San Jose requires.
Will we have penalties for those caught without insurance? Will they actually be implemented, or is this merely a measure to punish lawful citizens? Will the cops have this insurance and who pays for it?
California really likes shooting itself in the foot.
Yes. Yes. No and if yes, the taxpayers.
For sure criminals will buy the insurance.
For sure the law will remain on the books even if it proves ineffective at reducing the epidemic of gun violence (until the Supreme Court strikes it down of course.)
You forgot to include sarcasm tags for the totally oblivious.
Nationwide, only 9% of felons who used or carried a gun in the crime for which they are in prison reported acquiring the gun from a legally regulated source (US DoJ NIJ BJS survey), and criminals cannot be punished for violation of registration laws because it would violate their 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination. Criminals could not be punished by the San Jose law. Paying the tax and getting insurabce would be self-incrimination.
"...or is this merely a measure to punish lawful citizens?"
I have never, at any time, encountered or learned about a gun control law that had any other purpose.
The stated purpose of gun control is gun regulation with a view to prevent crime.
Gun control advocates have pointed out that "every gun criminal was a lawabiding gun owner until they committed their first crime."
(Nevermind that I have known criminals who did not own a gun until they decided to commit crime that required a gun and got one illegally.)
The real take away is that gun control advocates believe that waging war on gun owners is waging war on crime.
California really likes shooting itself in the foot.
CA isn't responsible enough to own guns. The state should have its guns taken.
If there hasn't been insurance for this, who's been paying for firearms damages? How often do cases come up, and how much money is involved?
Offhand I'd say a huge part of it is gang-bangers, and the taxpayers pay for emergency room services, what with "must provide services regardless of ability to pay" kinds of laws (with regards to the ER of course). And the gang-bangers are NOT going to buy gun insurance anyway! So this is mostly kabuki theater, for punishing the law-abiding. It will NOT save taxpayers any money!
New taxes never save taxpayers money.
That is a good question. When you look at statistics and the FBI Uniform Crime Report or the CDC causes of death, by means and by age, true "accidents" are fortunately relatively quite rare. The overwhelming vast majority of "children" who die from GSW are nearly all gang related.
And I do not believe most of them are going to be carrying any liability insurance, any more than they would be licensed to carry a legally acquired firearm.
As will virtually all gun laws, it will fall on those who have never and will never* commit a crime.
*though the ATF is doing its level best to make this more likely by default
Politicians deputize the private sector to restrict rights protected from the government.
You're just noticing this now?
OT post: https://theweek.com/political-satire/1009521/the-attraction-of-power
What I've been saying for quite some time!
Power attracts the corrupt.
“ Deputizing private parties to restrict liberty has become popular among politicians constrained by constitutional protections for individual rights. ”
Twitter, for example.
That's the private property of Twitter owners, shareholders, etc.! Buy 51% of their stock, and THEN you can be a (non-MARXIST) boss of Twitter's affairs!
Also... Dang it! The cops are restricting my liberty to take YOUR money!!!!
Only $25 per year? Why not $500? Or $5000? Oh, and lets not forget a $5000 poll tax, too. And let's voters carry insurance to cover the costs of those who "cheat" the voting system, or, even worse, vote the "wrong way."
What could possibly go wrong?
What about requiring smart-phone insurance? People can cause all kinds of grief with a single tweet, right?
Absolutely: "Speech Insurance."
I don't know about a "harm reduction fee" being imposed to own a gun, but it seems to me that there shouldn't be anything objectionable about requiring gun owners to insure their guns against damage caused by them.
We don't have a constitutional right to drive, but we do have a constitutionally-protected liberty interest in being able to travel freely, and cars are an especially effective means of travel. In this way, cars serve our constitutionally-protected liberty interests in exactly the same way as guns do - since our right to "bear arms" derives in fact from a fundamental right to use force in our self-defense, and guns are an especially effective means of defending ourselves. Thus, imposing an insurance requirement on owning guns strikes me as no more constitutionally problematic than requiring insurance to drive.
The argument being made in this post is - well, it's disingenuous in the extreme. Libertarians are supposed to like private-market alternatives to direct state regulation. Liability insurance for the misuse of a firearm seems like the optimal alternative to direct restriction on the ownership or use of firearms. Instead of regulating when and where people may use their guns, you impose a free-market-based requirement that incentivizes people to make their own decisions about when and how to carry. You'll see fewer people carrying guns unnecessarily into Subways and shooting at other drivers in road rage incidents, while allowing people to come to their own safety determinations when they're traveling with a lot of money or in a bad part of town.
As for "gang-bangers" - much the same argument can be made about auto liability - what happens if your car gets stolen and the thieves crash it into someone? No one takes that as a serious argument against liability insurance for drivers, so why should it apply to gun owners?
The difference is fairly simple. The vast majority of us need automobiles (personally owned, rented, or used as in a passenger in a bus or taxi) on a regular basis. And those automobiles need to be deployed in public, where accidents occur frequently, with various degrees of innocent mistakes ranging to drunken driving. Insurance cuts through all of that!
Guns on the other hand? I keep one locked inside a locked case in my secured home, and do NOTHING else with it, other than to keep it in case of an emergency... It is a hazard to NO ONE, other than those who want to break into my house! If thugs manage to steal my gun while I am away? That is on the state and the cops, for THEM not doing their jobs, NOT on ME!
Sounds like your rates would be pretty low, then. No problem!
This would also be another back door form of gun registration. Which should always be assumed to be a prelude to confiscation.
^ this
"...Liability insurance for the misuse of a firearm.."
Liability against whom? Folks are not responsible for someone who steals their car and runs over a pedestrian or uses it to rob a bank, and neither is their insurance company.
I agree - liability insurance for gun ownership shouldn't be required to cover what a thief might do with it.
I would view liability insurance as covering misuse and accidents in public by the legitimate owners - you know, the kinds of things that happen all the time and are widely publicized as part of the anti-gun message? If you're concealed-carrying in my grocery store, and your gun goes off accidentally, harming me, I should be able to sue you for damages and be assured of payment - hence, liability insurance. If your kid takes your gun and shoots up the school where my kid is in class, then I should be able to sue you for damages and be assured of payment. The burden should be on you to make sure that your legally-owned firearm does not harm me.
With all due respect, an "accidental discharge" by a concealed-carry holder is already liable for any damage done to you or your business -- both legally and civilly, in every jurisdiction in the nation, under many and varied laws. Liability for intentional illegal acts are, as a rule, not covered by any insurance company, ever.
My legally-owned firearms have never caused anyone harm. I make sure they are well trained in gun-safety.
The same is true of accidents caused by drivers, but we require drivers to carry liability insurance.
According the CDC, there were 173 accidental firearms deaths in 2019, a number which has gone down every year for a few decades.
On the other hand, there were 43,143 accidental "transportation-related" fatalities. That includes 7,668 pedestrians. Maybe we have much LARGER PROBLEMS than accidental firearms fatalities?
Only to drive on public roads, as pointed out in the article.
Yep. I am aware of that, too.
Sorry, that was in response to SimonP, not you.
Noted 🙂
And people say slippery slope arguments are fallacious.
The fact that incremental abridgements of freedom are used to further constrain people who have done no harm is why I'd have no problem with those that propose these measures strung up as tyrants.
"We?" Paleface.
Iirc, New Hampshire does not.
If you are carrying in the store and your gun goes off, you were doing something stupid. That shouldn't be on all gun owners.
I think you should have liability insurance to cover damages in the event that you offend me.
Different topic, but same Constitutional issues. How is it any different, on that level, from requiring me to pay in order to vote? Or go to church? What I see is just another "reasonable and common sense" Trojan horse to further erode a right enumerated in the BOR.
Now if you want to throw the very small minority of gun possessors who commit the vast majority of gun crimes [rather like a skewed pareto chart/ 1/99 i/o 20/80] into jail with mandatory sentencing, let's talk. If you truly want to impact gun crime, that would be the way to do it, but I am inclined to doubt that is your agenda here.
The thing you're ignoring is damages. If you shoot me (intentionally without justification, or accidentally), then I've been harmed. If you merely offend me, then I haven't been harmed. (One counterexample applies to media outlets, which frequently insure themselves against defamation claims - i.e., an example where speech is taken to "harm," and where outlets view it as generally prudent to protect themselves against legal costs incurred when they are accused of defaming others.)
The same goes to voting, going to church, etc. Your vote doesn't harm me, nor does your going to church.
I think there are lots of ways to reduce gun crime. I don't view gun liability insurance as a way of fighting gun crime, but rather as a way of ensuring that legal gun owners exercise a reasonable amount of care when handling their own firearms and do not unnecessarily endanger others. Ideally, this may, in turn, make it harder for guns to find their way into the hands of criminals, but I don't view that as the primary purpose. I don't think that should be controversial.
"Your vote doesn't harm me..."
It does when the vote is for people who ignore the constitution.
I'm not going to get in the habit of saying that Republican voters harm me by voting for fascists, because I believe in democracy. I may not like their choices, and their elected representatives may, indeed, be interested in harming me and the community where I live. But engaging in this kind of polemic is pointlessly divisive. You might as well say you believe in disenfranchising people who disagree with your politics.
New here? Must be, arguing with Sarcasmic.
Your counterexample of media outlets destroys your argument though. This isn't like media companies voluntarily insuring themselves against defamation claims. This would be equivalent to a law forcing everyone who wants to communicate with the public to get liability insurance in order to make sure that everyone is protected from defamation claims.
"I don't view gun liability insurance as a way of fighting gun crime, but rather as a way of ensuring that legal gun owners exercise a reasonable amount of care when handling their own firearms and do not unnecessarily endanger others."
Interesting, I own three homes, in two different States. I do not have an "enumerated right" to own three homes. There is no law requiring me to carry any insurance of any kind on these home (it makes economic sense for me to do so, so I do). Many, if not most, major companies, corporations, and government agencies "self-insure," including on their vehicles.
Yet, I would be expected to self-insure in order to exercise my "enumerated right?" Sorry, no deal. This is simply a way to discouraging law-abiding poor people from exercising their rights.
And it's probably racist, too.
Words are violence now. Try to keep up.
Yeah, I keep forgetting that....
The consequences of mishandling a gun are huge and most gun owners are very aware of that and very committed to gun safety practices. Adding insurance on top of that isn't going to change those behaviors. It won't add anything to gun safety, but will place one more burden on legal gun owners and give the state one more avenue to know who has what guns and where to find them.
"The thing you're ignoring is damages."
No I am not. If I cause you harm, either intentionally [in which case I commit a crime] or negligently, you can indeed sue me for the harm I caused. What you might get would depend upon what I own that is worth taking; what you want is insured MANDATORY coverage to provide a minimal level of compensation. No different from automobiles, as you state.
I own guns [you probably guessed that] and I am law abiding and committed to safety. That does not mean I am perfect but I am liable to any misuse and harm they could cause as a result.
I also have a concealed carry permit and I CHOOSE to indemnify myself with insurance in the event that I would ever have to use it. It would not protect me in the event of a crime or gross negligence, but it would if I acted in good faith to protect myself in the event I believed my life to be endangered by an assailant. Or if I were prosecuted by an anti gun DA or sued by the perpetrators survivors. This is to protect my freedom and assets.
But I digress; what you are ignoring is that you are placing a price, a "permit" on the exercise of an enumerated right upon which the government cannot infringe. And you can talk about injury and physical harm but in this sense it is no different than a poll tax.
And as I previously mentioned, the occurrence of actual firearm accidents is really quite small; criminal behavior however is the lions share of GSWs; now do you realistically think those persons who do not have a concealed carry permit or possess a legally acquired firearm and going to participate in this insurance scheme?
Again, I've never met a gun law that existed for any purpose other than placing a burden and or cost on the law abiding gun owner who isn't the fucking problem.
A small percentage of gun owners are dangerous, so tax everyone goes the argument.
A small percentage of church-goers get radicalized and become dangerous, so tax everyone.
A small percentage of public speech listeners decide to riot on public property or burn down courthouses or take over city blocks and declare them "autonomous zones", so tax everyone who gives a public speech.
Slippery slope indeed.
Have to remember he is arguing from a "public/ common good" standpoint, not a constitutional perspective.
Which is why progressive types see the existing constitution as an impediment, and so very much want it to be "living" and amendable to "common good" with all sorts of balancing tests and exceptions.
The outcome of that is of course that rights become very relative and dependent upon circumstances and outcomes. Which reduces them to privileges that can be giveth and taketh away.
Quo Usque Tandem is quoted in a 1941 Nazi propaganda movie, as Catalinas buzz overhead ineffectively searching to bomb the U-boat. That whole scenario was courtesy of the party whose motto was "The Common Good Before the Individual Good." Scenes from U-Boats Westward (free at archive.org) were cameos in Das Boot.
Interesting, The quote originated from from Cicero, in an address in the Temple of Jupiter [not the Senate, for security reasons], regarding Cataline. “Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra”
"How much longer, Cataline, will you abuse our patience?"
In more recent times it has been used to express "how much longer:" I encountered the phrase in a history of Rome and thought it appropriate for many things. Thus, I appropriated it.
No one takes that as a serious argument against liability insurance for drivers, so why should it apply to gun owners?
This is the most absurdist sentence I've ever read. It is exactly a serious argument against liability insurance for drivers. You assume that because liability insurance for drivers exists that it must be right and good and noncontroversial, but as you so helpfully illustrate with your attempt at circular logic: There is no good argument for requiring automobile liability insurance. Bad drivers can't afford it so they just drive without it, rendering the purpose of requiring people to have it moot and revealing its true purpose as an excuse to fine people for failing to have it, much as this proposed gun liability insurance would be: an excuse to fine people who don't have it and raise costs on politically unpopular behavior.
Driving is politically unpopular?
You're correct to note that I simply assume that liability insurance for car drivers is uncontroversial. Because, for most people, it is. But if you choose to characterize it as an overextension of state power, we can certainly address that separately. I have no problem acknowledging that a libertarian uncomfortable with compulsory liability insurance for driving would have every reason to be just as uncomfortable with compulsory liability insurance for gun ownership.
Interestingly, that counterargument would have nothing to do with the constitutionally-protected nature of the underlying activity. So, in a sense, it would be off-topic.
" liability insurance for car drivers is uncontroversial. Because, for most people, it is."
If that is the case, then why do so many people not have it? Moreover, if it's so popular then why is it required by law? If it was so uncontroversial and universally recognized as necessary as you say, then such a law would not be needed. Obviously, that's not the case. Thus you're deluding yourself if you really think this. The reality is most people don't want it and only do buy it because the law requires it.
"...you impose a free-market based requirement...."
Free markets are no longer free when certain purchases are imposed.
I don't know about a "harm reduction fee" being imposed to own a gun, but it seems to me that there shouldn't be anything objectionable about requiring gun owners to insure their guns against damage caused by them.
Now do speech.
I don't support mandatory car insurance either.
And the cases are rather different. Cars are operated on public roads, and there are car accidents all the time. Almost everyone uses their car insurance at some point. SO while I don't support the mandates for insurance, I can understand the argument that people who aren't insured are placing a real burden on everyone else. The number of legally owned guns that are used in such a way as to cause harm to others, on the other hand, is so tiny that it can generally be safely ignored.
The problem is "requiring".
Four words, San Jose. Really fucking simple--
Shall Not Be Infringed.
If only they could apply this reasoning to something that's an actual danger to the community: the police.
Require cops to carry liability insurance and pay fees into a restitution fund.
Wooo-Hooo!!! Doctors carry malpractice insurance... Why not cops?
Doctors lie under oath so the Kleptocracy can say cannibal saliva ruins children's chromiums. In exchange for thus enabling fines, fees, asset-forfeiture looting and murder, the Political State gives degreed doctors a license to rob while the cops hold the gun on you. Cops are, in a mixed economy, mere hoodlums. Plenty more where those came from.
They call it union dues. That hires lawyers to lie and bribe till they have total immunity. Who needs insurance when they are above the law?
"Deputizing private parties to restrict liberty has become popular among politicians constrained by constitutional protections for individual rights."
Where are we on the progression now?
- There's no such thing as fascism.
- Fascism exists but never here.
- We might be a little bit fascist but it has no effect on you.
- Fascism is good for you and the nation.
- Get in the box car.
2d amendment is an interesting right as the only one with a huge and far reaching explicit qualification involving “a well regulated militia”. Requiring insurance for private gun owners is probably well within that qualification whether or not it’s good public policy.
It also has the explicit qualification "shall not be infrigned". Requiring insurance is not within that qualification.
The "well regulated militia" part is a statement and context, not a qualification.
So, does that mean that I have to join the Oath Keepers or NFAC to exercise my 2nd amendment rights? And if they don't require me to carry insurance, then I don't see why the state is butting in.
There is no "explicit qualification involving 'a well regulated militia'" associated with the right to keep and bear arms. The phrase "well regulated", in the context of the 2nd amendment, doesn't even mean what you think it means. "Well regulated", at the time the BoR was written, meant "properly functioning". Regulations on gun owwnership would actually be contrary to "shall not be infringed", and I'm pretty sure someone at the Constitutional Convention would have caught that contradiction.
https://americanmind.org/salvo/thats-not-happening-and-its-good-that-it-is/
Which brings us to the Law of Salutary Contradiction, whose formulation is: “That’s not happening and it’s good that it is.” While the Law of Merited Impossibility applies to the future, this one is about the present. It’s what the ruling class immediately switches to after what they insisted would “never” happen is happening before everyone’s eyes.
Is the NSA spying on Tucker Carlson? That’s an insane conspiracy theory … which is also warranted by Tucker’s treasonous contacts with Russian officials as he seeks an interview with Putin.
Is the Biden Administration inviting in illegal immigrants, then putting them on military planes and shipping them to the heartland? Absolutely not … and these future Nobel Prize winners deserve their shot at the American Dream.
The coinage is Rod Dreher’s and goes back to the early debates on homosexual marriage. As Dreher formulates it, the Law of Merited Impossibility holds: “That will never happen, and when it does, boy will you [homophobes, transphobes, racists, sexists, whatever] deserve it.”
Its second purpose is to dismiss out of hand “slippery slope” arguments—despite, or because of, the fact that every single such argument over the last twenty years at least has proved true. Worried that allowing people to “self-identify” as whatever sex they want will lead to pervy 50-year-old men exposing themselves to’ tween girls? Insist, loudly and indignantly, that that will NEVER happen and anyone who suggests it might is an alarmist bigot with a heart full of hate.
The third purpose is to enforce the new caste system. Those who get to impose fresh irrational indignities on the rest of us are the upper caste. Those who object, or even have reservations, are lower. The latter are not allowed to harbor, much less express, any doubts. Whatever humiliation the upper caste has planned for us, we deserve and must meekly accept. Hence when said pervy 50-year-old actually does start waving around “her” equipment in the girls’ locker room, if any parent dares object, let ’em have it with both barrels. That thing that ten seconds ago you said would “never” happen? Now it’s righteous punishment for the retrograde.
The progression started by disarming selfish Jews, remember? Kristallnacht?
They just deny that they're fascist and what they're doing is good for you. They'll tell you that Fascism = Racism and leave what they're doing undefined and malleable.
The sdvertised purpose is to make it easier to lock up the street thug snd the gangbanger.
Can not prove a atreet thig mugged someone?
Lock him up for carrying a gun without insurance.
Can not prove a gangbanger gunned fown a bunch of kids in front of a school during a drive-by shooting?
Lovk him up for carrying a gun without insurance.
The problem is that the same Party that oushes these laws have no interest in punishing the street thug and the gangbanger.
http://johnkassnews.com/the-survivor-chief-judge-tim-evans/
Now describe the fix when a dirty cop kicks in the door and kills the entire family and their dog--with total impunity.
Just as an addendum to "requirements" for drivers to carry insurance, it is NOT a universal requirement: Virginia, Mississippi, and New Hampshire have no such requirement. Similarly, Ohio, New Mexico, and California does not require insurance: one can post a bond, instead. (the bond goes from $35,000 to $50,000 dependent on the State.
Now do voting insurance.
What Tucille describes the courts call "menacing" when bratty grownups do it. But in a debate I would mention Mark Twain's story of how riverboat pilot certification was voluntarily organized. After the Opium War depression, steamship owners tried to underpay pilots in recovery times, but underwriters had noticed the safety results and the plucky pilots saved their trade. American translators do the same thing by passing tests that make people want to hire us, no insurance required.
With regard to San Jose:
According to a 2007 estimate, the median income for a household in the city was the highest in the U.S. for any city with more than a quarter-million residents with $76,963 annually. The median income for a family was $86,822.[134] Males had a median income of $49,347 versus $36,936 for females. The per capita income for the city was $26,697. About 6.0% of families and 8.8% of the population were below the poverty line, including 10.3% of those under age 18 and 7.4% of those age 65 or over.
From 2002 to 2006, Morgan Quitno Press named San Jose the safest city in the United States with a population over 500,000 people.
In 2020, violent crime per 100,000 people has been the lowest the city has seen in 2017 while the homicide rate has been the highest since 2016; property crime per 100,000 people has been the lowest the city has seen in over ten years.
Thank you Wikipedia.
San Jose also has more millionaires per capita than any other large American city.
All this baloney will, sooner or later, end up in the courts, where who knows what the outcome might be. One of course assumes that the common sense ending would be the junking of the above referenced foolishness, but then does common sense come into it.
Reason loves privatized totalitarianism.
I don't understand why people think insurance is necessary or desirable. If you owe someone for damages, you can simply pay for them out of pocket. Of course, one could make the argument that the average person can't afford to pay out of pocket because the cost is so high. But that's really argument for lowering damage costs and removing lawyers from the process. Moreover damages costs are also high because coverages are high. And thus there is an inflationary aspect to the system that everyone seems to ignore. I suspect if we had no insurance, the cost of everything would go down. After all, we lived without it for centuries and got along quite well without it.
Necessity or desirability has nothing to do with it. What is clearly visible here is simply another example of picking the pocket of those law abiding types who choose to exercise their constitutional rights.
Can Lickardo get any dumber?
"Insurance companies have been regulating safety of automobiles for five decades, and as a result, we all have seen per mile deaths drop dramatically over the last five decades because we have air bags and anti-lock brakes and so forth that insurance companies incentivize drivers to go buy."
Is this idiot so stupid that xe doesn't understand that the Federal Government requires vehicles to have air bags, anti-lock brakes, high mounted brake lights, tire pressure monitoring system, etc? Hell, they require cars to be equipped with physical side mount rear view mirrors - cameras, which wouldn't need to be adjusted to the size and position of the driver and can be much smaller and aerodynamic, aren't allowed. Of course government now requires a rear view backup camera which is just odd.
Is short, this fucktard thinks insurance companies do this, insurance companies don't, USDOT does.
This is just an invitation for San Jose citizens to buy their guns illegally in town or legally out of town and bring them in.
It'll be hilarious as San Jose's gun crime rate goes up (mainly because of the new gun crime they will invent: possession of an uninsured gun) but their actual receipts of this evil fee remains near zero.
If anyone turns in information that identifies an illegal weapon, they should receive $10,000 per Gun Abortion.
Is this a bad law? Yes. San Jose is driving a truck through the hole created by the Texas abortion law. Constitutionally protected or not (you can say this is exactly what the founders meant when they wrote "well regulated militia"), there is leeway here as a result of the Texas law.
I read reason.com because I want objective libertarian opinions, but let's face it, it's a republican rag wrapped in a libertarian skin.
This is blame shifting of the worst order. The BLAME here lies with the rotten poiticians creating this mandate in the first place. Just because the "insurance" will have to be purchased from private enterprise does not shift the blame one nanometer. To attempt to FORCE private citizens to perform any specific act as a precondidtion to the enjoyment of what is clearl a constitutinally protected RIGHT is not acceptible. Forceing them to pay a tax for the "priviledge" or enjoying./using that right is also a big no no no NO. The SCOTUS judged that the levying of a poll l tax as a peconditioin to VOTE is clealry contra the US Constitution. Same wiht a gun tax as aprecondition to the enjohyment of that right.
UNless I am very much mistaken, California USED to be a "state preemption" state, meaning that NO laws constricing any right or liberty with respect to firearms can be enacted by any lesser department or section of the State government... and a city government certainl y is a LESSER jurisdiction than is that of the State government. OH they could have snuck something in over the past few years when I was not watcing. that wuld be just like the Gbbling Nisance and is ilk.
Sue in FEDERAL court the isntant te ink is dry on the paper on the Gabbing Nuisance's desk. and ask for a preemtive stay on the implementation of both parts of this unconstitutinal bill. get the paperwork lined up and ready to file NOW. When the bill "becomes (impotent) law, file it in FEDERAL court. FDon't bother with an stte level court. They've got fr too many Grand Poohbahs lined up to jig to their fiddle.
Regarding the foolish statuary appearing above, at the beginning of the article, who created it, I wonder, and why. Also, who paid for it.