Police Misbehavior Is a Crucial Threat to Liberty
Cops in Los Angeles killed a young girl in a department store dressing room by accident while firing at a suspect armed with nothing more than a bike lock.

Whenever I write about police abuse and use-of-force issues, I often hear from the "back the badge" crowd to defend whatever it is the police officer did in a given situation. They're not always wrong, of course, but one recurring theme always sticks in my craw, especially given that these writers typically describe themselves as "conservatives."
Police defenders instinctively view most situations—and expect the rest of us to do so—from the perspective of the officer. "Well, sure that African American teen was holding a cellphone rather than a gun, but how was the officer to know before he shot him?" "Sure, the SWAT team broke down the door to the wrong apartment, but mistakes happen (note the passive voice)."
One of the stated principles of conservatism is fealty to the constitution, which protects the rights of individuals against the abuses of government. Police are the face of that government. They enforce the rules that lawmakers pass. Having the right to detain or even kill you, officers literally hold all of your "rights" within their grasp.
Therefore, I spend less time worrying about the genuinely difficult challenges of officers than about my fellow citizens' right to life and liberty. As Charlton Heston says in a Touch of Evil, "Only in a police state is the job of a policeman easy." Likewise, I worry less about the frustrations of IRS agents than I do about the rights of taxpayers. Tax collectors have a legitimate job, but a true freedom-lover is primarily concerned about protecting individuals from the state.
Let's look at a recent example. On Dec. 23, Los Angeles police shot to death Valentina Orellana-Peralta. who was shopping for quinceañera dresses in a Burlington store dressing room in North Hollywood. Officers were responding to reports of an assault with a deadly weapon and opened fire. A bullet penetrated the dressing-room wall, where Valentina and her mom were hiding from the ruckus. The girl died in her mother's arms.
Those who scream (rightly) about government encroachment on our liberties when, say, legislators pass a new gun-control measure, tax hike or business regulation need to acknowledge that the government's killing of a young girl who is out enjoying her day is a rights-destroying offense of a much higher order. It doesn't matter that the girl was not the intended target.
The Los Angeles Police Department released a bland statement saying that officers didn't know the girl was in the dressing room. The union argued the officer followed active-shooter protocols after getting 911 calls. It appears there was no active shooter. Police killed the suspect, who was a danger, but the weapon was a bike lock and cable. It sounds like a scene from the movie Idiocracy.
The shooting "has already sparked widespread anguish and outrage," reported the Los Angeles Times. "The violence has also brought scrutiny about the tactics used by the responding officers and whether there were ways to de-escalate the situation without opening fire or at least not putting Valentina in harm's way."
That summary is on point. If officers followed the proper protocol, then the proper protocol is, to paraphrase Charles Dickens, "an ass—an idiot." If your instinct is to excuse this tragedy as a mere accident, then perhaps you're not that committed to constitutional rights. Would you be more outraged if a California Department of Justice regulator had mistakenly banned some kind of firearm?
Fortunately, the U.S. Supreme Court might soon take up the issue of federal officers who abuse their power. The matter involves qualified immunity—the protection officers have from lawsuits when they violate someone's constitutional rights. Two cases—one in Minnesota, another in Texas—are meandering their way toward the highest court thanks to the efforts of the libertarian Institute for Justice.
In the first, 16-year-old Hamdi Mohamud "was a bystander at a fight involving a knife-wielding girl who was a witness" in a St. Paul, Minn., officer's investigation "of a non-existent Somali immigrant crime ring," columnist George Will explained. The officer, who had been deputized as a federal agent, was found through judicial proceedings to have "exaggerated or fabricated" facts, which led to Mohamud's unjust two-year incarceration, he added.
In the second, Kevin Byrd alleges that Homeland Security agent Ray Lamb tried to stop him from investigating a car accident involving Lamb's son and Byrd's ex-girlfriend. As the court explained, "Byrd alleges that Agent Lamb physically threatened him with a gun, and verbally threatened to 'put a bullet through his 'f—king skull.'" Lamb had Bird detained for four hours until video surveillance footage led to Lamb's arrest for aggravated assault.
In both cases, the appeals courts ruled that Americans may not sue federal agents even when their behavior is unconscionable—and even when, as Will put it, such behavior "did not result from split-second decisions in dangerous situations." If you're OK with that, then just admit that you actually believe in unlimited government.
This column was first published in The Orange County Register.
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A cop shot and killed Ashly Babbit when she was armed with nothing at all; seems Reason isn't overly concerned about it.
She was TRUSS passin! You mean a Murican caint shoot a truss passer?
it was the Government's property. i thought you idiots respected property rights
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It was built with slave labor, i.e. stolen property.
To be "stolen" means to have been taken without right. At the time, the slave labor involved was legal; ergo, nothing was "stolen."
That doesn't mean the existence of slaves (an ongoing situation in parts of the world -- to which the attention of virtue-signalers would be better directed) is a good thing. Thank goodness it was ended by our forefathers, albeit at great cost to them and to the USA.
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Bullshit reasoning. "Legal" means to comply with some set of rules. These rules can (and frequently are) arbitrary, and have no bearing whatsoever on rights. The word you should have used is "lawful". But that implies compliance with a moral code. So, no luck for you there, either.
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They are only concerned that her murder will make the left look bad.
The cop is now the captain of security.
He shot up the ranks.
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The article is about mistake the police make.
The shooting of Babbit was intentional.
Of course, we could do the Trumpanzee bit - blame the victim...
Ashley Babbit was a bit of a nut job - with a history of violence.
Then there is the part where she was actively climbed over a barrier, through a broken window, approaching an armed guard with a gun drawn.
Hmmm, Micheal Brown was unarmed as well - approaching a police officer in a car, who could have driven away... Oh wait, he wasn't white.
Michael Brown was a wanted man for assaulting a liquor store owner. When officer Wilson made contact, Brown punched him and wrestled for his gun. After that just about every witness who was ever at that site dismantled the "hands up don't shoot theory" and Eric Holder cleared Wilson.
In other words, Brown and Babbitt are apples and oranges. But you knew that already. Libs do not allow facts to interfere with their undying racial narrative.
Exactly.
Wilson wasn't looking for Brown. He "made contact" because Brown didn't tug his forelock when Wilson shouted at him to get out of the road. Before Brown "punched [WIlson] and wrestled for his gun," Wilson had nearly struck Brown with his car, and had pulled his gun out.
The cop who shot Babbitt didn't go after her. She was the tip of a mob pushing through what was a final barrier.
It does always amaze me how so many "law and order" authoritarians think they're libertarians.
Nope. Not true. Brown was NOT wanted for ANYTHING at the time of the stop.
You'd think they'd at least be concerned that the cop in question wasn't even interviewed by the people running the investigation into the shooting, but nope.
Police Misbehavior Is a Crucial Threat to Liberty
You mean like when cops gun down unarmed protesters?
unarmed *rightwing protesters
Note to foreign readers: elements of a rioting mob of squalling, Comstockist Trumpanzees™ discovered unequal yet apposite counterforce when it came their turn to be beaten by libertarian spoiler votes. These "unarmed protesters" are now being hunted down, fined and jailed per selfie and security cam footage.
ACAB - All Cops Are Bastards. A good first order approximation.
Cops do what politicians order them to do. People who vote for a force-initiating looter state do on occasion feel the reprisals on their hides. This occurred in Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, Tokyo, Hiroshima... not to mention at the suddenly-armed hands of French, Czech, Polish and Russians after 1945.
Gotta love when leftists like Greenhut flat out ignore facts that don't fit their narrative. Reports of a possible shooting, no problem, police should go see if the caller is correct and die if they aren't. Sorry to burst your bubble but a shots fired 911 call isn't the time to play therapist to one of the criminals you so love to defend from consequences.
To accept this article's premises is to demand omniscience from officers and perfection in their actions. By the standards he demands of others Greenhut fails here and if the "when in doubt do nothing" operating mode were to apply to him this article should have never been written.
Yes, the cops should risk death rather than endanger innocent citizens. If they don't like that deal, they should find another career.
What Vernon said. Don't like it? Go find another career.
It doesn't require omniscience or perfection. It does, however, require responsibility, professionalism and, if not bravery, at least an absence of rank cowardice.
Yes, police should only fire the second shot -- assuming they're still alive after the first shot.
it wasn't your kid that was killed, obviously.
What? So why don't the cops just enter the mall with machine guns blazing.... Sure a few innocents... OK , a lot of innocents die, but hey it was "shots fired 911 call"
Having watched the video, it's a clear case of a fucking idiot rushing to the front of the line to try out his shiny rifle. EVERY other cop was calling for his ass to slow down on the bodycams but he not only demanded to take point, a stupid place for a guy with a 3X or 4X scope on a long rifle to be inside a building, but was running ahead of everyone else forcing them to hurry after him.
Long rifle caliber could've easily exited the outer masonry wall of the mall and had enough energy left to kill a couple of pedestrians in the parking lot.
Criminal recklessness on the part of the cop.
The cop could see the perp. The perp didn't have a gun. He had a bike lock. He wasn't near anyone at the moment of the shooting, either. He had been assaulting a woman when the police approached him, and moved away from her- probably because police were there. Shooting the perp wasn't justified.
Gotta love when "law and order" authoritarians call libertarians like Greenhut a "leftist" because he doesn't lick jackboots the way they do.
I'd like to find out exactly what happened before deciding if the cop was wrong. Reports say they were told the suspect had a gun and according to this transcript from the bodycam, the suspect was in the process of attacking someone when the officer shot. I don't like using a rifle in this situation but that is what they are taught and in close quarters a handgun round would have easily gotten to the 14year old anyway. "The unidentified officer who fired the fatal bullet can be heard on his body camera footage yelling 'victim down,' 'he's hitting her to the right side,' and 'she's bleeding, she's bleeding!' before he takes aim.
'Hold up Jones, I got you!' another officer says before the first policeman fires his rifle three times. He runs up to the Elena-Lopez, who flails on the ground, as another officer tends to the injured woman."
This is the problem with some of the criminal justice reform advocates. There's NO case of police shooting they'll agree with. Anything that's bad optically is a case for police reform so there's no principled line to adhere to.
People called this in as an armed suspect with a gun. Other callers said he was seemingly on drugs (which seems to be the case) and he was severely beating random people. Police had seen him dragging a victim behind a line of shelves and her blood is all over the floor-they don't know if she's been shot or not. She might be dying on the floor and they can't render first aid to her until they've confirmed that the assailant is no longer a threat. Just because the actual shooter never told him to come out with his hands up doesn't mean the the criminal wasn't a threat.
This is the problem with some of the criminal justice reform opponents. There's NO case of police shooting they wont recognize as unjustified.
FTFY
wont->will
i think you fucks just want to see more undesirables executed without consequences...
One person, IIRC, said there was shooting. The cop didn't see a gun, however. He saw a bike lock and a perp moving away from a victim. He wasn't moving toward anyone. The range of a bike lock isn't very far.
Some police reform advocates might be unreasonable and never see a police shooting they like, but the majority of people pushing for police reform aren't as unreasonable or extreme, and a few idiots don't make an unjustified shooting like this one justified.
Also, regarding the use of the rifle-there's no perfect answer in this situation. The value of the rifle is that it's extremely accurate and easy to aim, so all your rounds are on target. Usually that's preferable to police unloading with their side-arms because they aren't accurate with them, which increases risks to bystanders. This is just the rare case of a freak ricochet (from what I understand) that did more damage than a stray bullet.
I agree about the rifle - no perfect solution. More accurate but also more likely to go thru something and continue on, and you'd have to drop it to go hands on if it came to that. Handgun less accurate. But in this case I don't see that it would have made any difference.
Running a rifle on point with a 3-4X scope inside a building is stupid. That's for if the guy has a hostage and you need pinpoint accuracy. As for it being a ricochet, It sure as hell didn't look it from the body cam with the angle the rifle was aimed. That was either a miss on the 3rd shot or a through and through that went right through the door/wall.
Thank you, Jim, to read Greenhut's account, one would think the suspect was just standing there with a bike lock in his hand, and that the girl, out of sight in a dressing room, had her "rights destroyed" by a trigger-happy cop.
But this is par, for the course, with unreason's accounts of police actions, which are nothing but anarchy-loving cop-hate articles.
I always recommend that unreason's writers, and the commenters who support them, call a criminal every time they want some help.
Yeah, that'll work.
Bingo. I have been a libertarian since the middle 70's and I come from a family of cops. Plus, through the draft, I actually was an MP during my time of duty.
I am so disgusted with the "All Cops Bad" sentiment that permeates Reason's authors and many of it's readers. Article after article highlights the worst police involvements. I'm still waiting to see an article about a cop who risked his life to save someone. It happens all the time but you'd never know that reading Reason.
Let me tell you something about cops that I learned as soon as I was placed in a unit. Cops don't want hotheads in their unit because they know that those assholes endanger everyone involved in an encounter, including other cops. You're usually going into the situation undermanned. The last thing that you need is some jerk on your "team" pissing off everyone in the crowd.
Explain Joe Chrystal, then.
I'm not justifying what happened to Joe Crystal, but you're actually mixing apples and oranges when you bring up his case. The situation covered in this article and my response to it dealt with an imminent threat situation. Crystal's case did not.
I am not saying that "all cops are good", but Reason and a lot of its posters appear to be saying the opposite.
You can put your faith in the government to come rescue you when you need help, and who knows, it may work out okay. Maybe the cops won't shoot your dog or kill a member of your family when they show up.
I can't think of a single situation so dire, so fraught with peril that it can't be made worse by the introduction of some overly-paranoid, undertrained, unaccountable, trigger-happy yahoo with a badge.
Body cam and security video was released. You can watch it yourself.
The perp wasn't attacking anyone at the time the round was fired. He was attacking a woman when police approached, but had moved away from her in response to the arrival of the police. He wasn't near anyone as far as the shooter could see.
Video was released like a week ago. He he had attacked a woman as they approached, but was no where near ANYONE when the cop shot him. Yes, the initial reports lied about that, which should tell you they know it was a bad shoot.
If you're going to do it Greenhut, at least have the balls to write an attack on Conservatives and people who are pro-gun instead of this piece of shit. I'll agree there are bad cops. I'll also agree that there is bad law regarding bad cops, but, it's funny that you never address the other part of the equation. How about acknowledging the Democrat politicians who suck up to the Police Unions in exchange for their support. Nope, never see that addressed. You're dead on about "protocol", but you don't mention WHO establishes that "protocol".
Before you conveniently group me in "back the badge" group because I disagree with you to some extent, I've witnessed first hand how bad cops literally get away with "murder". I watched as a guy in a bar, who was almost too drunk to walk, went to leave and the bartender wanted to call him a cab. He whipped out a badge and started in on the bartender. The two people that he was with came up and pulled out their badges and threatened the bartender with interfering with a Police Officer. The bartender let him go. An hour later we heard that the guy crossed the median and struck a car with four teenagers in it. All five were killed. The cop was made out to have been undercover and a "hero", while they went over the teenagers with a microscope trying to blame the accident on them. The Cop was buried with full honors, his family got his pension and mysteriously the funeral expenses for the teenagers were covered by an unnamed source.
I have one question. Was the Officer who shot the girl in the dressing room told that he was responding to an "active shooter"? If so how was that determined? One other thing. I don't know where you live, but, where I live it is common for someone to carry a large "bike lock" on a chain to be used as a weapon.
Also, the video of this guy beating women bloody with a bike lock is horrible to watch. I'd like Greenhut to watch that and claim police should have been gentle with this asshole.
A bad guy can put you in a situation where there's no right answer. That seems to be the case here. I don't think the officer was 100% perfect, but I think this a good case of policing. Officers were told there was an active shooter, which was reported by 911 callers. The 911 callers heard the sound of him smashing his bike lock into glass walls and it sounded like shots going off because of how loud it was, so they reported shots being fired. And this asshole beat up three women, one of them who was bleeding and standing right beneath the assailant at the moment he was shot.
That's a lie, he was shot over 6 feet away from the woman and further retreating at the time he was killed. If rifle boy hadn't pushed for point and rushed ahead and instead it had been one of the other cops, not only would the shot angles have been different meaning the girl wouldn't have been killed by an errant round, but it is unlikely the suspect would have been killed at all.
Weird how he didn't name you at all.
Why is the writer comparing two cases of deliberate misconduct to a mistake made in an effort to control an assault with a deadly weapon?
Could it be because he is stupid? Deliberately misleading? Full of shit? You decide.
The cop clearly fucked up in not considering what was behind their target, but comparing it to willful abuse of power is simply dishonest.
And I'm all in favor of holding police accountable for willful abuses of power. I'm all for ending no-knock raids and dynamic entry into houses. I'm all for stopping police for depraved uses of force, like in the Daniel Shaver case, or in creating a deadly situation out of nothing, like with Tamir Rice. I seriously want police reforms.
I feel really, really bad about the dead girl in this case. But I don't see actual police misconduct here because this is a scenario full of bad answers. After Columbine, police protocols are to enter the building to protect lives of people inside rather than trying to secure the whole building and account for every person inside. This guy was holding a weapon-the bike lock is a weapon by virtue of having been used as a weapon. And you can absolutely kill someone with a bike lock. Beyond that, they're told he has a gun, so after he's failed to surrender to the first group of officers, they're thinking about protecting potential victims. They've got a woman on the floor bleeding right in front of them and they don't know if she's dying from a gunshot wound.
And in Florida the cops delayed going in while more victims were shot. Go in and it's "too rushed." Wait for clarity and others die. More and more these are no win situations. In CA a new commission half staffed by people biased against police will eventually get to decide if this cop loses his POST license. Not sure why anyone signs up for the job anymore.
I feel really, really bad about the dead girl in this case.
You've done a lot of posts defending officers' apparently unlimited right to make mistakes, a right the rest of us don't have.
If you feel "really, really bad" why don't you take a little time to give your opinion on (a) whether the girl's family should be compensated, (b) if yes, whose budget it should come out of, and (c) whether there's any policy at all you'd change to make a repetition less likely.
My opinion is that in the case of lethal mistakes, the person who made the mistake should not be criminally liable, but they should be financially liable. If the police department wants to indemnify their officers that's OK, although I think there should be a deductible, say $5K, to incentivize careful behavior. And the indemnity should come from a private insurer that raises premiums on departments with bad records.
You've done a lot of posts defending officers' apparently unlimited right to make mistakes, a right the rest of us don't have.
Not really; I think civilians should have ventilated this asshole before the officers ever showed up, but unfortunately, exercising your right of self-defense gets heavily punished in this country and in California especially. If one of them had made the exact same error as this officer-where they fired, all three rounds on target, but accidentally killed a girl due to overpenetration-I wouldn't think they did anything wrong. I'd probably have different feelings about people firing wildly or firing into a crowd.
As to whether the girl's family should be compensated, that's a different question. I'm not in favor of the city paying out to the girl's family because I don't think the city did anything wrong. What would be very nice is a private charity, perhaps a GoFundMe or other campaign, of people expressing sympathy to support the family because this is unfortunate. I'd also say seize the assets from the estate of the dead guy but I doubt he had very much, and he's got other victims who deserve to be made whole from his estate as well.
The problem with a broad policy change as a result of this shooting is that there's such a specific and peculiar set of circumstances here. There's nobody visible directly behind his target, there's a victim present in front of him, bleeding from injuries, and you can't very well offer aid to that victim while the threat is still ongoing. I do wish this guy had been given more warning, but when he's apparently drugged out to the extent that he starts bashing random women with a bike lock, he's not going to suddenly comply with orders. And the girl in the dressing room couldn't take cover because she couldn't even see the officer, and beyond that, the bullet was a ricochet that went through the assailant and then bounce off the floor. Three shots, all shots on target, target drops immediately, it's a good shoot.
If there's any broad policy change I might consider, it's about the ammunition, but there's no perfect answer there either. Hollowpoints don't necessarily prevent overpenetration. You don't want UNDER penetration either, you need to drop someone with as few rounds as possible.
Ultimately, the responsibility for this whole situation is the dead asshole. If the officer had started spraying wildly throughout the store or had fired into the crowd, we've got a very different set of facts. But I don't think the officer should be responsible.
Thanks for responding.
I kind of disagree about the responsibility, though. If I pay a plumber, and he makes an honest mistake that creates a lot of water damage, I expect him at a minimum to refund my money, and a decent plumber would offer to cover some of the repair cost (or have insurance). If I buy a car and due to an honest mistake at the factory one of my family members ends up dead, I'd expect the company to take at least partial responsibility.
Taxpayers, presumably including the girl's family, were paying the city and the officer to protect the innocent rather than kill them. Although you're right that the guy with the bike lock is mainly to blame, I think the city/officer need to take partial responsibility, and in a way that isn't entirely paid by the customers (in this case taxpayers) who got faulty service.
Slightly off topic, but I'd also note that there are unintended consequences beyond the dead girl. People who were close to this incident will be incrementally more hesitant to call the police in the future. Sure, the chances they'll kill you instead of, or in addition to, the criminal are very small. But not zero and therefore you need to think about it.
Well I understand your point. I will say that your plumber isn't operating under extreme time pressure where if he doesn't plug the leak in under 30 seconds, someone suffers grievous harm. It's actually in the best interest of your plumber to take his time if he's billing you hourly, so you expect him to have the job done by the time he leaves. If he's acting very quickly to save lives but he messes up and floods my house, I don't think feel like he's liable for the damage done.
Same with a car manufacturer. They do have economic pressures on them, but if they're compromising and taking shortcuts, those are actionable for litigation. They're not under any obligation to sell me the car at that specific price, and if making sure the car works safely makes it more costly, they still have a duty to do it and pass that on to the customer.
So my question is whether the person was acting appropriately under the circumstances. If I don't think the officer made a mistake-which in this particular case I do not-then I'm having a tough time reaching a point of finding the city at fault for the girl's death. Therefore, with no fault, there's nothing owed. It's not a matter about what they DESERVE, it's about what's just and proper. And I think they do deserve to be compensated, but that compensation should come from concerned and sympathetic private parties.
If the city politicians feel bad about it, donate from their own pockets instead of the pockets of the taxpayers. City funds aren't a bank you can just spend willy-nilly.
And if the unintended consequences are that people are less willing to call the police in the future, I'm calling that a net positive. We do need less police in our lives. And if people know that they can't count on police to protect them, perhaps they'll begin to value the second amendment again, and the right of each individual to take their safety into their own hands.
OK, I agree that plumber and car manufacturer were not the best analogies. Let me throw out a different one:
I'm driving a car and have to make a "split-second" decision. The result is that someone is killed. After the fact, it turns out that if I'd swerved instead of hit the brakes, or vice versa, the person would not have been injured, but we all agree that 0.3 seconds was not enough time to analyze the situation and there was no moral failure.
Nevertheless, my insurance company will have to pay, or if I'm a wealthy person who's allowed to declare self-insured, then I have to pay. I think perhaps you are viewing the payment as a "penalty" for some kind of wrongdoing. But that's not how the state views it. They simply say that driving is a risky activity and if you are going to do it, then you need to be financially responsible for the consequences.
Similarly, I believe ER doctors carry insurance and the insurance pays out if their decision, made when someone has gone into cardiac arrest, turns out after the fact to not have been the best one. No reasonable person thinks the doctor should go to jail, or even be fired if he's not doing it repeatedly. But the insurance company doesn't get to use the "split-second" or "good faith error" argument either.
I think the city should pay compensation. The police officer is an agent of the city and his actions are actions of the city. His actions are in pursuit of protection of all residents of the city; ergo, the city should take responsibility for his actions on behalf of all residents of the city.
In this case, the officer appears not to have done anything that was intentionally wrong, but his actions, taken on behalf of the residents of the city, nonetheless resulted in the death of a complete innocent. Since it is the city that is responsible for the officer's actions, the city should pay compensation (and, of course, may well pay for insurance to cover this very situation).
A bike lock is a weapon, but not at 10' (or more). The shooter was in "the first group of officers." They didn't see a gun. They saw a bike lock.
The shooting of the perp wasn't justified. Arresting him certainly was.
"Could it be because he is stupid? Deliberately misleading?"
Probably both, but, I'm leaning towards the second one.
Who or what did Greenhut think he was helping by writing this?
The left.
Always the totalitarian left.
Worst example of alleged police misconduct I’ve read about, and I think the author knows it, which is why the video hasn’t been provided (it’s all over the LA media) and he fails to give relevant facts such as the cops haven’t told the perpetrator might have had a gun and the cops followed a trail of blood from one of the victims.
But he was only armed with a bike lock! Ignore all the damage he was doing by swinging that bike lock!
This country needs to completely reform police training, but just like the teachers unions the police union block any attempt to make significant changes. The shoot first and escalation is a glaring issue. They scream, shout and shoot.
Guess we'll just have to nationalize all police, eh Reason?
That is, after all, your goal in posting these stories.
Police legal proper conduct is also a threat to liberty. There is a reason the founders were against standing armies.
You're right. A customer at Burlington should have ended this asshole much sooner than police could have arrived. Unfortunately, if you're brought up on charges, you can be financially ruined as a non-police officer for a justified and legal use of deadly force, even if you're found not-guilty.
There are insurance policies specific for self defense situations.
A bike lock is a deadly weapon. Being threatened by someone brandishing a bike lock justifies deadly force. When shooting, you must know what is behind your target. You are responsible for every bullet fired.
The closing comments make sense, sense that should apply with full force to what are described as “the forces of law and order”. Sad, isn’t it, that they do not seem to.
"When shooting, you must know what is behind your target."
So, if, as in this case, you can't see through walls, you can never shoot? I think that is a recipe for lots of deaths of officers and crime victims.
The issue is always whether, under the exact circumstances of the interaction, what the officer did was reasonable.
It’s the criminal stupid. Those who believe the police are the problem are clueless fools.
This incident was a tragedy, no question. But the cop isn’t the bad guy here.
Riiiight... The cop just drew the short straw and dutifully murdered the unarmed girl to impress politicians with zealous willingness to murder people into rights-violating obedience as a general doctrine. How wonderful!
Yeah, that take is even dumber than the first take.
This is exactly the type of exchange that leads nowhere. Well played, fellows.
This “qualified immunity” business is a load of crap that long since should have gone the way of all flesh, that is rotted away.
"Just a bike Lock"
Idiotic...I have seen the results of getting hit with a lock in 20 years of working in a prison and the damage is insane.
The broken bones, HUGE hematomas, mass concussions and possible blindness damage to an eye if it gets hit.
Worst blunt weapon damage I have ever seen was a sock in a lock incident...The skull looked like a cater on the moon.
Cop just shot from too far...He should have shot closer and center massed the perp.
By shooting from over 30 feet, on a moving target and shooting several rounds is how the BS happened.
And yes I have taken lives...Not something I saw in a movie or read in a book...Cop rushed it.
As for the girl?
RIP.
This is starting to approach the issue rationally.
Does shooting a handgun at someone armed with a lock from 30 feet who is not advancing on you make sense? What if they are actively swinging at someone else?
"It was just a bike lock" does not make sense as a starting point. But this does. It is dangerous.. but what is the immediacy? What other options do you have at hand? Is a shield available? Can you coordinate with others? What is the motivation of the suspect? Are they bent on destruction and harming as many people as possible, or simply desperate to escape?
Now you can have a real conversation about what happened, what should have happened, and how any errors in judgement should be handled.
Starting with "he murdered an innocent girl in a changing room because of a bike lock" is not going to result in a productive conversation. Nor is "bike lock is deadly weapon. Good shoot". Neither addresses the "totality of the circumstances" as they like to say.
He was all of 6 feet away. He wasn't shooting from too far, he was shooting from way too fucking close. He had a 3 or 4X optic on the rifle, which means if he wasn't blind firing he damned sure couldn't properly assess his surroundings in the time between when he cleared the corner, shouldered his rifle, and fired. This after he demanded point from the guys carefully and calmly pieing corners and approaching at a moderate pace and he rushed ahead to the extent that EVERY other cop was calling for him to slow the fuck down. It was an obvious fuck up on rifle boy's part and you also clearly haven't watched any of the footage.
A hypothetical question.
Suppose the girl's father, a CCP holder, is in another part of the store, and trying to get a clear look at the guy smashing heads with a bike lock, but there are a lot of obstructions. He knows his wife and daughter are sheltering in the fitting room. In the midst of all this, he sees Person C with a gun aim it at the fitting room and has the impression there is intent to fire. Is he entitled to shoot Person C to save his famility?
If it matters to your answer, consider some cases:
(a) Person C is in a police uniform.
(b) Person C is not in uniform, but is claiming to be a cop, and afterward that turns out to be true.
(c) Person C is not in uniform, and is claiming to be a cop, but afterward that turns out to be false.
(d) Person C is not in uniform, is saying nothing, and turns out to be another shopper trying to take out bike lock guy.
(e) Person C is not in uniform, is saying nothing, and turns out to be bike lock guy's accomplice.
If you're going to allow (e), and you're saying we need to not hold "good" shooters responsible for mistakes, it seems you have to allow (d) also. And if you'd allow (c) then you have to allow (b).
Let's suppose reality ain't what it is, then set up some goofy lifeboat conundrum to prove altruism is the lesser of self-deceptions... over and over again...
Actually, I'm not trying to prove that. What I was trying to get at here and in the exchange with A Thinking Mind is that those saying a mistake should have zero consequences, not even in the sense of having your insurance pay for the damage, are making a fairly extreme claim that doesn't apply to most of real life, including other people who might use a gun to protect themselves or others.
It strikes me as making a special exemption that applies only to cops.
This is exactly how it is... for a reason. We pay the dude to keep getting into situations like this all day, every day. He should get a degree of leeway because of that.
On the other hand, this should not extend that much farther than any other citizen.
I would argue that as things stand right now, ordinary citizens are likely to get too little leeway, and police are likely to get way, way too much leeway - unless they wind up on TV in the middle of the narrative of the day, in which case they are truly screwed.
Example 1: St. Louis couple charged for brandishing weapons on their front lawn as a group of rioters marches past.
Example 2: Atlanta Wendy's parking drunk driver incident.
That is not a good response.
If the perceptions of the dad are that perfect that he can see the perfect line of the rifle and knows exactly where it's aiming and knows for a fact that it's going to overpenetrate...man, this guy has to have the knowledge of God in order to come to this conclusion. It's not reasonable to assume. And if he has time to see it, to know what's about to happen, and to key in on the guy holding the rifle and then plug him, it feels like has time to do something else that doesn't involve killing someone.
I'm fine with hypotheticals, but hypotheticals that require someone to know things that it's almost impossible for them to know aren't very useful for me. So I can't really answer any of those scenarios because there's a disconnect of plausibility.
You fire even soft lead rifle rounds from 6 ft away it's gonna overpenetrate, let alone jacketed hollow points, but it's equally possible they were using M855 ball in which case overpenetration is guaranteed. So that''s not even at issue. And they're almost certainly lying about the skip since from body cam footage it was a straight shot from the rifle to the door.
The author’s description of an conservative is inaccurate. A conservative is a person who believes in the original intend of the Declaration of Independence, i.e., natural rights and limited government and that the rights pre-exist human authority, not someone who is ok with police brutality.
(Multiple choice): A conservative is someone who will ship his own mother oft to a death camp in exchange for the chance to pull the pin on a grenade about to be hurled into a) a women's clinic, b) a hippie pad that smells like leaves or c) the *wrong* kind of church.
I'm not sure "conservative" ever meant exactly what you say.
But regardless the words "liberal" and "conservative" got hijacked several generations ago. Eventually, simply to be able to communicate, you need to concede the new meanings.
Calling a man "conservative" when you mean he's a believer in natural rights is as misleading as calling him "gay" when you mean he's good-humored and not overly serious.
PS The word "libertarian" is also almost shot. Actual original-definition libertarians will need to pick a new label soon.
If things keep going the way they are, us old school liberals (libertarians) will be using the label "comrade" or "citizen 45793" from inside the gulag. Whether the authoritarian pendulum swings left or right, we are definitely not going to get Most Favored Nation status.
And holy hell, are they pushing that pendulum hard these days.
cons. means finance or economics.
The Left screwed that definition up like everything else they touch, especially Children.
Greenhut is quick to assume these immunity-granted murderers are guided by some kind of good or ethical motives. I am reminded of an "antiwar" sci-fi story in which individual trained brutes replace armies to settle squabbles between looter states. Survivors (if any) thenceforth get qualified immunity to rob, rape and murder--which they proceed to engage in with lusty alacrity. Who wrote that?
Of course, there is zero evidence that (in a nation where 30-40% population is either nonwhite or foreign born) police officers pose constant and immediate threat to most American citizens.
The libertarian case for getting rid of qualified immunity (rather than structural reforms) is a very much a progressive one - they highlight the worst situations, generalize them as patterns, and howl for one size fits all regulations. If you get rid of qualified immunity, (1) bad cops will still abuse our liberties (2) most cops will just not enforce the law if it invites lawsuits (3) civil lawsuits on even the most trivial / perceived offense will skyrocket. That'll do wonders of recruitment.
Unintended consequences - how do they work again? None of this is theoretical, since homicide and retail thefts are shooting up and becoming chronic issues in big cities across the country. Even some libs stopped hemming and hawing about "let's find nuanced reasons for this".
It's very simple. If some libertarians got their way on police, a lot of minorities will get KILLED. In real life most blacks want MORE cops. I live in an apartment with lots of black tenants, they don't hesitate to call the police. Remember, if a cop kills an unarmed person that makes CNN. if 20 people died because police were hamstrung, no one cares.
My dad is close with swap meet guys and small business owners. A lot of them were robbed or even assaulted in the last year. There are a ton of shit that doesn't go reported. This is a VERY dangerous time to go yolo. Anarchy is as much threat to my liberty as the government.
HI Steve!
So, you cringe when people look at things from the perspective of the officer.
Yeah... I get that.
But that is the only way to judge their actions. If you think you should judge their actions from some other perspective, you are simply and flatly wrong. That is not a conservative, liberal or middle of the road opinion. That is the only honest, rational and just way to judge anyone's actions.
This is why these scenarios can be so difficult to talk about. Police (and often the state backing them) refuse to look at things from the perspective of people affected by police actions. So we get middle of the night no-knock raids with innocent people getting shot or charged for pulling a gun. Officials seem incapable of understanding that from the perspective of someone asleep in bed, their front door being knocked down and a group of armed men loudly storming into their house is not always going to be perceived as a lawful execution of a search warrant that should immediately result in their quick action to "assume the pose" and not move.
Similarly, activists want police to have perfect knowledge and never make mistakes - with any error being criminal behavior resulting in the end of a career and the end of freedom.
Both of these positions are stupid and counterproductive. And kind of dehumanizing.
Anyone who really supports police reform needs to understand that our current system is broken at a fundamental level of perception. They also need to accept that there will never be a perfect world where innocent people in the next room are not accidentally shot during a violent confrontation with police. Police need to accept that hogtying someone face down for hours is never going to be acceptable, no matter how angry and frustrated they get with a belligerent and drugged out person.
As it stands, police and officials still defend the indefensible, and activists still pick the wrong incidents to build their case. And by arguing that you should not judge an officer's actions by viewing them from the perspective of the officer, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. You are actively making things worse.
Police and the state need to learn to see things from the other end of the gun... but you cannot judge an individual based on the knowledge that other people have. That is unequivocally wrong and if that is your starting place you will never win a single convert.
I have been having this same discussion for over 2 decades. And every time we make any progress, it seems like someone diverts the whole thing into "racism" land, or some other "they are all evil" divisive tactic that blocks any progress and moves the ball backward.
I have been down this road enough times to know what doesn't work. And this line of argument not only doesn't work, it cannot work. No rational human is going to accede to this sort of standard, so nobody on the other side is going to listen if that is where we start. If "mistakes are going to happen" is off the table, the discussion is over and you lost. Nobody is going to listen past that.
These incidents usually have a ton of mistakes made leading up to the moment when something tragic happens. Police like to focus only on the "split second decision" to avoid culpability. But absolutist activists like to focus only on the "this was the wrong outcome" aspect, and only accept one result - that someone is a criminal and is prosecuted. Most of the time, there is plenty that should be learned about how to avoid creating bad situations in the first place, while still acknowledging that when you put people in difficult situations, sometimes they are going to make mistakes.
Until the conversation becomes centered on that reality, progress will continue to be elusive.
I am looking at things from the perspective of the officer. Bodycams are pretty useful for that. He was an impatient little shit who pushed his way to point with a scoped long rifle inside a building, rushed ahead of his fellow officers to the point that more than half of them were yelling at him to slow down, and didn't take time to assess his surroundings after rounding the corner when the suspect was moving away from the victim on the ground. Was he criminally liable for her death, no. Should he be civilly liable? Yes. Will he be? Almost certainly not.
The perspective of the officer is the perspective of a goon that enlisted into an organized force on a mission to intimidate humans into obeying a multitude of blatantly unjust laws, the perspective of a goon that pretends to believe all the nonsense taught by the enemy-run police academy. For example, they insist they have the right to frisk somebody without probable cause, because that's what they were taught. They can take their Terry v. Ohio and stuff it in a cop's casket.
"Government is the negation of Liberty." - von Mises
" Cops dont kill cars, they kill ' nee- gars!"
" Can you break a niggar? Yep, it says right here..."
Richard Pryor, Live on Sunset Strip
I'm very much generally on the side opposite the cops in these controversies, but this narrative structure is a pretty bad one to hang up as an example of bad cop behavior. For one thing you can quite literally watch the entire event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjgo5hap-GM
The cops had received at least one, if not multiple reports of a shooter. They had every reason to believe the store was cleared out except for the bad guy and any victims. They came across a battered and extremely bloody victim immediately before seeing the guy duck out of sight. The victim looks so bloody that you would easily misinterpret that as a gunshot victim. The cop rounds the corner and basically confronts the bad guy with something dark in his hand, and he puts him down. Innocent victim was through a wall behind the bad guy. It was a tragic accident, and in this case, I don't think you can really blame the cop for shooting in that scenario. There are plenty of bad or dubious shoots, I don't think this one counts.
"They had every reason to believe the store was cleared out except for the bad guy and any victims."
Lie, at LEAST two separate 911 calls, and specifically one from a worker hiding in the building, reported multiple people hiding inside.
You would think that people hiding inside would be assumed. With the power of a sniper rifle, those bullets can pierce several walls, even to other parts of the mall.
Assassins of Youth are clearly the hired thugs politicians send out to rob, kidnap and shoot kids to save "us" from the lurking danger of plant leaves. This demonization and prohibition of production and trade is what mystical conservatives, including Joe Biden's party, consider a legitimate function of the violent Political State.
Cops should be responsible for all collateral damage, EVEN IF the shoot is a good shoot. No immunity at all. (They should also be able to recover damages from the target's estate if the shooting was justified.)
Responsibility means you accept the consequences of your actions, no matter what the intention of your actions were. A girl is dead because a cop opened fire - the circumstances surrounding the cop opening fire don't even matter as far as the girl being dead is concerned. The family of the girl deserve justice also. A good shoot should just mean no criminal prosecution, not immunity to civil liability.
(And cops should know better than anyone that they need to be aware of what's behind their target).
The cop was holding the smoking gun.
So... Hypothetical...
Dude is in the middle of a crowd, shooting people. You are on the same level, armed with your 9mm.
You are 60 feet away, and he is firing away with an extended mag AR.
Do you fire, knowing that there are hundreds of people behind him and any miss will almost certainly hit an innocent bystander? Or do you hold fire, waiting until you have a clear shot as he shoots more people one after another.
What if you know you will carry full civil liability in court?... You need to be aware of what is behind the target, after all....
I don't think you have thought this one through too well.....
If you're not a police officer, and you take that shot and hit someone behind the shooter, aren't you liable under current law? I'm pretty sure you are.
Liability under most civil suits doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing either. The jury can apportion liability between multiple parties.
But there's no real case you have zero liability. But for your taking the shot, the person you hit wouldn't have been injured/killed. (Certainly not by that bullet). That sort of liability is common in other contexts, like two car collision accidents, where liability is typically apportioned between drivers even if one of them was the primary cause of the accident by poor driving. Without the other car there to be hit, there would have been no accident (or at least not *that* accident).
The hidden assumption is that every member of the crowd being gunned down has been successfully prevented, on orders from politicians, from returning fire in their own defense. In 1991 officious prigs from the City of Kileen pestered a nut over his non-code yard fence. The fool retaliated by driving into a (no guns allowed) Luby's next to City Hall and killing 22 conveniently disarmed people. An Austin lawman called attention to this fact triggering hundreds of mimeograph letters from angry gun-grabbers.
That position makes no sense.
If I'm driving along on the road, obeying all laws, and some asshole comes out of nowhere driving like a maniac and hits me, I still have some liability for the accident. But for my presence in my car in that place at that time, there would not have been that accident.
If I have liability in a circumstance where no action I took risked damage, why would I not have liability when I deliberately take a risky action? But for my decision and subsequent action, the harm would not have happened.
I'm also reasonably sure if the shooter had been a non-police officer, they'd legally face liability for having killed the girl. (IANAL).
Police should not have special legal protections. We pay them to do things we should (theoretically) be able to legally do ourselves, so we don't have to do them, and because we can train them to do those things better than we could (also theoretically).
On 7 July 2016, Shetamia Taylor brought her children to a demonstration against police brutality, in Dallas Texas. While there, she was shot in her leg while shielding her children. The sniper probably didn't intend to shoot her. He was aiming for cops, shooting 12 cops, killing 5 cops, but all his good intentions do not reduce the pain and suffering inflicted on an innocent human who didn't deserve it. That sniper's carelessness makes him no better than the LAPD goon that carelessly shot Valentina Orellana-Peralta. Folks, be careful not to shoot an innocent human who doesn't even deserve it.
The Rifleman was trained in violence to invade a mohammedan country on the other side of the planet because of plant flowers. He then attacked other gunmen ordered by politicians to rob, kidnap and shoot mostly black Americans over (spoiler alert!) plant leaves and flowers. Subsidized party Politicians ordered the violent foreign entanglements, and simultaneously sent men with guns to use deadly force over plant leaves on account of eugenic superstitions. Yet politicians vanish from the narrative as soon as their initiation of force creates reprisals.
BTW everybody, this is exactly why U.S. Capitol police didn't simply gun down the intruders as they entered the building. You have to see that one person push past a cop and force entry, and then you cannot shoot only that one without firing into a crowd outside, many of whom are spectators or reporters.
Grammatically true. By gunning down a single female brainwashee of the Trumpanzee Temple of the Presumptuous Assumption of the Bad BLM Ballots, the gunman remained innocent of shooting plural intruderS. Fatally blasting an actual unarmed girl was tactically astute in that rioting Trumpanzees were confused over whether to pin a girl-bullying Fuhrer medal on his chest or stampede outta there.
I like it better when blunders like this don't result in harm to innocent humans who don't even deserve it. https://www.odmp.org/officer/15227-trooper-mark-paul-wagner
Not to worry. Thanks to Qualified Immunity™ and union goons the trigger-happy idiot who killed the two people over a bike lock will suffer no harm and very little inconvenience. Next President Harris has promised to work closely with the California Legislature to enact commonsense bike lock bans. Republicans in several states have indicated their support for bike-lock bans in support of the auto industry, according to the Dearborn Independent.
It has been reported that the police were told it was an active shooter situation. While tragic, I can't find much fault with the police on this one.
Also, the fact was that they walked up on him actively attacking someone. He wasn't just holding a bike lock. He had just finished bashing someone to the point that the floor was bloodied. If you have an active assailant that you have been told has a firearm, I don't see any reasonable way to argue that they should not respond with deadly force, and taking him out from a distance seems to be far better than trying to engage a potential gunman in melee.
My first suggestion would be that they should not have used a rifle. A shotgun wouldn't have as much penetrating power through walls.
The passive voice narration excusing all deaths alleges the trigger-happy had "been told" there was an equally trigger-happy gunman hard at work piling up casualties and littering the floor with spent ammo. So who is this narrator whose every word is not only credited by gullible gunmen but quoted as Gospel by their media tools?