Government Regulation of Social Media Won't Protect Free Speech
Sen. Amy Klobuchar wants to put HHS Secretary Xavier Becerra, the former California attorney general with a reputation for being a partisan hack, in charge of "health disinformation" online.

Is it me or does the Facebook whistleblower's "bombshell" revelations seem like much ado about very little? The company's former product manager, Frances Haugen, has given the Securities and Exchange Commission and The Wall Street Journal thousands of internal documents that say more about the state of American culture than they do about the social-media company.
"No one at Facebook is malevolent, but the incentives are misaligned, right?" Haugen told CBS News. "Like, Facebook makes more money when you consume more content. People enjoy engaging with things that elicit an emotional reaction. And the more anger that they get exposed to, the more they interact and the more they consume."
If that's the issue, then one can just as easily blame newspapers, TV news shows, talk radio, and political parties—all of which benefit by stirring the pot. For some reason, people prefer conflict to happy thoughts about puppies (although there are plenty of those posted on Facebook). Do we blame the medium or the human condition?
Haugen shared an internal Facebook survey showing that Instagram increases thoughts of suicide and worsens eating disorders among teens. I would never minimize the tribulations of being a teenager, but Haugen seems woefully naive. Young girls have always compared themselves to the photos of fashion models in magazines. Teens were vicious to one another long before Instagram.
Again, do we blame social media or something deeper? The same goes for commenters who post incendiary information on their Facebook pages. These are platforms, which people use for good or ill. This nonsense reminds me of liberal politicians who blame video games for gun violence and conservative politicians who blame Hollywood movies for an erosion of the nation's morals.
It's time to grow up. The problem with the latest hysteria: A rash of new rules and regulations will certainly follow. As The Wall Street Journal noted, Haugen's testimony before Congress "builds momentum for tougher tech laws." Of course it does, and conservatives—who will be on the receiving end of whatever passes—will only have themselves to blame.
"(T)he time is ripe for the regime and the digital medium to face a long-overdue just comeuppance," wrote Josh Hammer in The American Mind, in a typical conservative diatribe against tech firms. Hammer calls for Congress to "rein in the 'Mountain View-Menlo Park nexus of woke leftist corporatism…lest technocracy vanquish democracy anew.'"
To paraphrase H.L. Mencken, conservatives may get what they deserve, good and hard. Congress is floating proposals to rein in tech companies, including efforts to overturn the Section 230 rule of the Communications Decency Act that protects those firms from liability from the posts made by individuals. Without that rule, these platforms could never have taken off.
By eliminating that regulation, many conservatives think they will punish tech companies for their alleged censorship of conservative views, but the opposite is more likely. The firms won't let their sites turn into the equivalent of your spam folder—so they will do what progressives want and tightly control everything that's posted.
For a peek into the future, read the Health Misinformation Act of 2021, sponsored by Sens. Amy Klobuchar (D–Minn.) and Ben Ray Luján (D–N.M.). It would strip Section 230 protections from tech platforms during a health emergency if they allow the spread of misinformation. Any freedom-cherishing American should spot the obvious flaw.
"What is health misinformation?" asked New York Times columnist Farhad Manjoo. "I know of no oracular source of truth about COVID-19. Scientific consensus has shifted dramatically during the pandemic, and even now experts are divided over important issues, such as whether everyone should get a vaccine booster shot." Bingo.
Actually, Klobuchar and Luján identified the nation's oracle of truth in the S. 2448's text: "(T)he secretary of Health and Human Services … shall issue guidance regarding what constitutes health misinformation." In other words, we'll all be free to post whatever information passes muster with HHS Secretary Xavier Becerra—the former California attorney general who has a reputation as a partisan hack.
Here's an AG who used his title-and-summary writing authority to undermine the chances of voter initiatives he didn't like—and he's going to make the call on what amounts to fair-minded health-related discussions? Good grief. Even if Becerra were the Oracle of Delphi, no government official should have the power to determine "misinformation."
This bill is unlikely to pass constitutional muster, of course. The First Amendment doesn't apply to private social-media companies' content-moderation practices, but it would apply to a federal mandate that companies defer to the health czar. Bad lawmaking is the expected result when we join in the Facebook-is-Satan hysteria.
Feel free to blame Facebook for your ills—and the angst of your teenage children—but this legislation reminds us that whatever problems private companies cause, the government always poses the biggest threat to our wellbeing.
This column was first published in The Orange County Register.
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Why is reason completely ignoring the contract aspects of silicon valley? The Megan Murphy lawsuit was egregious. She was kicked off for a post made before a change to the rules. The judge ruled the contract terms violation was swept under 230.
This is not even discussing the fact of unconscionable contracts where one side can simply make arbitrary changes or utilize vague terms at whim.
The constitutional protection of contracts has been long long gone from the Supreme Court's copy of the Constitution.
"Feel free to blame Facebook for your ills—and the angst of your teenage children—but this legislation reminds us that whatever problems private companies cause, the government always poses the biggest threat to our wellbeing."
This sounds like something an edgy 14 year old who knows nothing would say. Might wanna grow up one day.
PrIvAtE cOmPaNy!
Well, the government is not always the biggest threat to a person's wellbeing, but it is always the biggest threat to a person's individual rights.
Unless someone is trespassing on public grounds. Then they should be shot. Right jeff?
Don’t fear the revolt!
(insurrection)!
All our times have come
Here, but now they’re gone
Seasons don’t fear the revolt
Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain
(We can be like they are)
Come on, baby
(Don’t fear the revolt)
Baby, take my hand
(Don’t fear the revolt)
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Valentine is done
Here but now they’re gone
Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbs
Are together in eternity
(Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbitt)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel
Square == Circle says I have to disagree with you more often to prove I’m not a left-wing shill. Problem is I’m scratching my head and just trying to comprehend what your comments are saying a lot of the time. 🙂
Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbs... I got the idea from here:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/theres-word-what-trumpism-becoming/619418/
There’s a Word for What Trumpism Is Becoming
The relentless messaging by Trump and his supporters has inflicted a measurable wound on American democracy.
From above…
“The conversion of Ashli Babbitt into a martyr, a sort of American Horst Wessel, expresses the transformation. Through 2020, Trump had endorsed deadly force against lawbreakers: “When the looting starts, the shooting starts,” he tweeted on May 29, 2020. Babbitt broke the law too, but not to steal a TV. She was killed as she tried to disrupt the constitutional order, to prevent the formalization of the results of a democratic election.”
Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbs were both made into legendary super-heroes for political reasons; the primary reason being the legitimization of the use of pro-authoritarian violence against democracy... Violence to PROVE, for once and for all... As a hoped-for Final Solution... That... "My tribe's lies leading to violence against your tribe are GOOD, and YOUR tribe's lies leading to violence against my tribe are BAD!" ... It has never brought anything but grief, suffering, death, and destruction... But it's gonna work just beautifully, for me and mine, NEXT time!
That's a dishonest reading of what he accurately said about you.
know your BOC.
And ill give you a non pithy response as well. Corporatism or soft fascism is a greater threat to liberty due to a few factors. Corporations can extend powers not granted to the federal government under threat if economic harm. The federal government spends trillions a year. They have the cash flow to influence corporations. They admit to doing so in Bidens White house. Likewise they control the levers of regulations. They are threatening companies with 700k a violation over vaccines. And based on judicial practices those companies would pay prior to filing suit.
And you have claimed you aren't for mandates yet support government threats and bribes to allow corporations to be the vector of that control.
And before you say well only governments have prisons, they often work with corporations to justify sentencing such as with debtors prisons. It still happens under the guise of fraud.
But overt attacks against liberty are in the open. Corproatism or fascism happens at the edges to create fear or influence a populace into submission. See Venezuelas radio licensing or how China is a major funder of all large business. They effect their lower through economic control. And you seem completely happy with that form of liberty reduction.
Lusts-after-your-web-sites Marxist JesseBahnFuhrer thinks that one of the Ten Commandments read as follows:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. Unless thy neighbor art a corporatist in Thine Righteous Eyes, in which case, Thou shalt steal ALL of their stuff & shit, howsoever Thy Power-Hungry Right-Wing Wrong-Nut Marxist Heart may desire.
You and I agree on this being a massive threat. My main question is what is a solution that does not involve giving government more overt power over corporations? Since more overt power will lead to more covert power.
"overt power over corporations?"
Go on. I would be a benevolent despot. I promise.
With libertarian overtones?
Sounds like an exciting gamble. There is really only upside. I am in
Advocate for the full repeal of federal agencies. I'd start with Dept. of Education now as it seems the American public would consider that more palpable now then any other time I can imagine. Take away the levers of power.
Giving to groups like the Institute for Justice in the meantime to fight back against obtrusive government. https://ij.org/
Breaking D.C. up amongst the districts would be a huge step too as it would remove the cultural bias of D.C. from influencing unelected people.
Also remove protections from federal workers so they can't over rule elected officials through their actions, ie the resistance openly announced under Trump.
Disagree on 1st part. You don't want the cancer to spread and metastasize through out the whole country. It's already why it's nearly impossible to end a military program because every district has a few jobs tied to them. I think it's better to illustrate where all that federal money is going:
1 Loudoun County, Virginia $134,464
2 Howard County, Maryland $120,941
3 Fairfax County, Virginia $115,717
4 Hunterdon County, New Jersey $113,684
5 Santa Clara County, California $111,069
6 Arlington County, Virginia $110,388
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States
Eleven through twenty includes another 4 DC suburb counties.
The biggest change would be to give government less power through spending.
But in the case of 230 it is a favored liability granted to a corporation doing what one of the political parties wants. Removing that protection and allowing suits to occur, such as Megan Murphy, would allow correction in the judicial branch. The large bought companies would be liable to all districts. They would have an increased risk of loss than they have through the liability protection granted.
Solution? Define the problem first.
This is going to be in response to this question and you point below.
The problem as I see it is giving the government more overt control then gives them further covert powers. The one that comes to mind is the vaccine mandate. It seems possible that the federal mandate will be struck down except for contractors and employees. This may seem like not too big of a deal since it looks like free will (I.e I am agreeing to either the employment or supply contract). The trouble that I see is that the government will continue to become a larger portion of the economy and at some point they will be able to control most of the population through these contracts with little to no other choices. Especially if the government can flow these requirements down to all suppliers of their suppliers.
I am actually against things like repealing section 230. One reason, even if you can sue the website, who gets to rule on the case? You guessed it, big daddy gov. So I don’t think it necessarily solves the problem and in general would make things worse.
The government should never feel free to attach political views to granted contracts. It should be for services only. That is what gives them leverage over corporations discretely.
"The trouble that I see is that the government will continue to become a larger portion of the economy and at some point they will be able to control most of the population through these contracts with little to no other choices."
That's already happening. You'd be surprised at the number of companies that do business with the government.
Google "Cage Code." If a company has one, then they've got to follow federal rules, like requiring all employees to be vaccinated.
I absolutely agree.
I have 3 big beautiful cage codes myself. I am planning on that going to zero very soon. I am sick of compliance, not having full control of my businesses and the specter of criminal and civil liability hanging over me.
So as anyone paying attention could have guessed, those three businesses will get purchased by larger businesses who can handle all of that much better. And the great consolidation continues.
Christ, you ask that of libertarians? Obviously shrink government. 99% of what governments do is geared towards expanding government.
I agree. Unfortunately, I have seen a lot of hand waving or outright support of government expansion here. A disturbing amount considering we are supposed to be libertarians here.
Ending a grant of protection for a favored industry would be a reduction in government power..
Do you also believe that gun manufacturers and dealers should be held liable for any crimes committed with their products? Because they receive protection under the PLCAA.
I actually do not think Section 230 is the problem. In fact, I think it gives government less control over the situation. That is why you see politicians from both sides call it out so much.
Governments can still control things through the courts. I lost a lot of faith in the court system after the ACA ruling and the justifications for the decision. So I don't fully trust the courts to fairly rule in suits against tech companies.
Why is this a go to? Saying let thr courts decide doesn't mean I want them to be liable. What the actual fuck?
There is already a law against these suits for manufacturers. It is used all the time. Yet leftist judges still let these go to trial. The solution is not special carve outs but generalized protections.
Your response was a dishonest false dichotomy.
I see what you did not like. That really should have read "should be open to liability" not necessarily "should be held liable".
I was not intending that as a dishonest false dichotomy. I was more asking if you were also opposed to the special protections provided to the gun industry. If these protections were removed from the gun industry, I would expect a massive chilling effect on gun manufacturing and sales. I would expect a similar chilling effect with the repeal of Section 230. Unless it is replaced by an equally robust but more universal set of legal protections, which if I am reading your comment correctly, is what you are advocating for. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.
"...they often work with corporations to justify sentencing such as with debtors prisons."
Hey lying Marxist JesseBahnFuhrer! Government Almighty and the IRS can put you in debtor's prison, and FacePoooo can NOT! WTF, evil LIAR?!?!?
WHEN are you gonna 'fess up to your power-lusting, and take BACK your opposition to "Section 230 = 1A of the internet", which is TRUE?
Hey JesseBahnFuhrer… No matter HOW many times you tell your “Big Lie”, it is NOT true! You’re part of the mob, aren’t you, gangster? For a small fee, you tell small businesses that you will “protect” them… From you and your mob! Refute the below, ye greedy authoritarian who wants to shit all over the concept of private property!
Look, I’ll make it pretty simple for simpletons. A prime argument of enemies of Section 230 is, since the government does such a HUGE favor for owners of web sites, by PROTECTING web site owners from being sued (in the courts of Government Almighty) as a “publisher”, then this is an unfair treatment of web site owners! Who SHOULD (lacking “unfair” section 230 provisions) be able to get SUED for the writings of OTHER PEOPLE! And punished by Government Almighty, for disobeying any and all decrees from Government Almighty’s courts, after getting sued!
In a nutshell: Government Almighty should be able to boss around your uses of your web site, because, after all, Government Almighty is “protecting” you… From Government Almighty!!!
Wow, just THINK of what we could do with this logic! Government Almighty is “protecting” you from getting sued in matters concerning who you chose to date or marry… In matters concerning what line of work you chose… What you eat and drink… What you read… What you think… Therefore, Government Almighty should be able to boss you around on ALL of these matters, and more! The only limits are the imaginations and power-lusts of politicians!
Square == Circle says I have to disagree with you more often to prove I’m not a left-wing shill. Problem here is you are sounding like a pretty standard issue libertarian or even an old school conservative.
Not sure why I’m supposed to do when you don’t stick to your alleged role of spouting lefty talking points.
Is this what you're going to do all day instead of chase Ken around?
Square == Circle says I have to disagree with you more often to prove I’m not a left-wing shill.
Does he now? Hmm. We should probably bring this up at our next Fifty-Center Staff Meeting at Soros Inc. We'll have to come up with a better strategy to coordinate our posts to keep everyone off guard!
This sounds like something a grumpy 70 year old who worked for the government their whole life would say. Might wanna retire soon.
Private companies cannot use force. They can't make you buy their stuff whether you like it or not. They can't kill you or lock you in a cage if you don't follow their rules. That's what government does.
So please, enlighten me, how are private companies a threat to our wellbeing when every interaction with them is voluntary?
Wow. This is so sophomoric. I can point you to utilities if you would like. I can point you to the OSHA regulations being pushed on corporations if you would like. I can point you to operation choke point and how banking industry pushed government wants through lending risk if you like.
To claim corporations have zero influence on one's life unless they are a customer is so naive.
I agree: your beliefs are sophomoric. All the examples you list are examples of government misconduct and governmental coercion. In many cases, government coerces both the corporation and their customers.
Another instance where your reasoning is "sophomoric". He didn't claim that corporations had "zero influence" over non-customers, he claimed that "Private companies cannot use force. They can't make you buy their stuff whether you like it or not. They can't kill you or lock you in a cage if you don't follow their rules.", which is a completely correct statement.
I know there are some idiots who feel that private businesses are a threat when they follow government rules, but that's only because they're being forced to do so by government.
They still can't make you buy their stuff, and they can't force you to do this or not do that. They can fire you if you're an employee, or tell you to leave if you're a customer, but even that isn't force unless you refuse to leave. But then you're a trespasser and force is justified at that point.
All force comes from government. Everything else is voluntary.
Lol. So naive.
He’s being obtuse, not naive.
Actually, an edgy kid who knows nothing would say something like
“Cuba has censorship, but their healthcare is better than ours. Makes you wonder why we do capitalism.”
"What is health misinformation?" asked New York Times columnist Farhad Manjoo. "I know of no oracular source of truth about COVID-19.
I am assuming he is now an ex-NYT columnist for that nasty crack about the NYT's omnipotence and omniscience.
To stop medical misinformation, just eliminate the CDC & fire Fauci.
And that guy in a skirt that thinks he's an admiral.
OK, that’s two sources of misinformation. There are many more.
Anti-vax misinformation isn’t coming from Fauci or the CDC. It’s coming largely from conservative pundits.
There is a long list of lies the CDC has committed. Reason even had an article last week about the cdc director saying masks were more effective than vaccines. Youre full of shit.
The government is not benevolent. Youre not a libertarian.
Government Regulation of Social Media Won't Protect Free Speech - Repeal Section 230
FIFY
Section 230 is not government regulating online speech. It permits the property owner to regulate the speech on his/her own property without being sued for libel for speech that the property owner didn't create. But you know this already.
It creates a liability carve out which has been stretched so far as to cover contract issues. So no.
There's no need to argue. Despite chemjeff's retarded 'you know this already', his statements stand in contradiction to the law, facts, and reality in general at even a superficial level.
"Protection For 'Good Samaritan' Blocking and Screening of Offensive Material" pretty overtly spells out that Congress is protecting people for screening material Congress finds to be offensive. The pretense that it protects free speech isn't even superficially evident, in spirit or letter.
"Protection For 'Good Samaritan' Blocking and Screening of Offensive Material" pretty overtly spells out that Congress is protecting people for screening material Congress finds to be offensive.
No it doesn't. It permits the OWNER OF THE FORUM to decide what is "objectionable" and to censor it based on his/her determination alone. It does not say that forum owners must only censor according to what Congress deems is censorable.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230
(2)Civil liability
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of—
(A)any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected;
It permits the OWNER OF THE FORUM
Weird. When I read "No provider or user" and "the provider or user" it almost seems like "OWNER OF THE FORUM" is a fallacious statement. Especially considering the word 'owner' doesn't appear in the text *anywhere*.
You're doing a pretty good job of demonstrating that either you haven't read the law, or, generously, it's so poorly written as to be meaningless.
Do you have a non-pedantic point to make? Yes I am using the term "provider" synonymously with "owner" in this context. The owner is the individual that PROVIDES the forum in the first place.
And Section 230 is clearly not "meaningless".
A non pedantic point regarding a law??
Do you know how laws fucking work??
Do you have a non-pedantic point to make?
It's not my point, it's Section 230's. The term you quoted isn't "provider", it's "provider or user". If the "or user" is pedantic, what other parts of the law are pedantic/useless/can be ignored?
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200531/23325444617/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-section-230-communications-decency-act.shtml
Section 230 is a "special favor"... To those who favor private property rights and freedom, over Marxist control of private property, and those who want Marxist Government Almighty to micro-manage web site "moderation"!
My heart bleeds for the Marxists, but I hope they do NOT get their way!
I didn't say it was a special favor. I said it doesn't protect free speech, which you both agree that it doesn't. I said it grants protection to blocking and screening of offensive material by title, which it does.
It seems very much like you guys have a problem with Section 230 and for some reason, are blaming me for taking the words at face value.
Section 230 ENABLES the orderly provision of online forums in which free speech may occur, in a similar sense that the First Amendment ENABLES free speech generally to occur by clearly specifying that Congress may not restrict it. After all, our free speech rights don't come from Congress or the Constitution, they are inherent.
If Section 230 is repealed, then it is true that I would still retain the right to host my own forum and type whatever words that I wanted on my own forum, since that is protected speech regardless. But it would make it much more difficult if I wanted to host a forum for all to use, to enable their speech to be heard, because I as the forum owner would become responsible for every word that every forum user said. All of those other people who would like for their voices to be heard, would have a much more difficult time doing so. Section 230 enables more voices online.
But it would make it much more difficult if I wanted to host a forum for all to use, to enable their speech to be heard, because I as the forum owner would become responsible for every word that every forum user said.
Or easier, depending on the amount of moderation you perform because:
Your statement is facile in that it applies equally to any objectionable matter. In your view, preventing liability for people pruning content on their service is bad because Congress also objects to the (some of the?) things they remove on their service?
Is banning murder wrong, because it also protects elected officials?
Admittedly, probably a bad hypothetical to present to a Trumpkin with the intention of drawing a contrast.
So how about instead of repealing, we just add say 1 or 2 sentences. Something along the lines of: Section 230 does not supersede existing or future contract law. All internet companies must abided by their own terms of service and must give 30 day notice of any changes.
You mean 1 or 2 *more* sentences:
Note that various parts of sections 223, 231, chapter 71 and 110, and title 18 have been variously amended or repealed.
I'm not entirely averse to what you're suggesting but, as always, it begs the lesser question; "Why internet companies?" and the greater question; "What business Congress' is any of this?" Contract violations are a tort issue.
Ah, the terms of service argument.
As I have pointed out several times, all of the major social media sites specify in their terms of service that they can change their terms of service and the user has no recourse if he or she doesn’t like the company’s moderation decisions. They would be crazy, and they should fire their lawyers if they didn’t include such a clause in the terms of service for a free-of-charge account.
Want some actual leverage as a user? Cough up some actual money to pay for your services — then you will have some actual clout in negotiating with the social media company.
And has been pointed out to you this is a violation of standard contractual jurisprudence as an unconscionable clause.
https://www.facebook.com/terms.php
"Where we take such action we’ll let you know and explain any options you have to request a review, unless doing so may expose us or others to legal liability; harm our community of users; compromise or interfere with the integrity or operation of any of our services, systems or Products; or where we are restricted due to technical limitations; or where we are prohibited from doing so for legal reasons."
Translated from lawyer-ese, this says: "We gave you an account free-of-charge. We reserve the rights to change the rules without any recourse on your part."
LOL! You fucking idiot. Getting access to all of your data whether you permit it or not is a high price to pay in return for notification that Cousin Susie had a baby.
The reason FB is worth in excess of 100 billion is all the user data they get for free by providing that 'free' account.
Translated from lawyer-ese, this says: "We gave you an account free-of-charge. We reserve the rights to change the rules without any recourse on your part."
Given your understanding of honesty (below) and your ignorance of the lawyer-ese "unconscionable clause" (above), I'm inclined to consider your interpretation as dishonest, at best.
Thanks for revealing yourself as yet another commenter who cannot have a civil conversation without resorting to insults. To the mute bin with yee.
You didn't even call him a disingenuous cunt. Sigh. He is so sensitive these days.
Section 230 is not government regulating online speech.
So what you're saying is; Section 230 Won't Protect Free Speech.
Free speech is protected by the First Amendment.
Section 230 enables that free speech to flourish online by making clear who is actually responsible for a particular item of speech. It is the person who wrote the words, not the person who hosted the words.
But again you know this already.
Section 230 enables that free speech to flourish online by making clear who is actually responsible for a particular item of speech.
Who determines who is responsible?
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
Does taking the law at face value and simply asking who makes the determination of who's a 'Good Samaritan' and who isn't make one an enemy?
The irony of sqrsly is that he has been asked why 230 is not extended to all industry if it is so good. Why it must remain isolated to the internet.
He refuses to answer.
Liar! I have often stated that we NEED a "Section 230" for hardcopy rags! To spread justice (Section 230) over to another domain!
Unlike evil power pigs on this forum right here, I favor spreading justice, not spreading injustice!
Sooo… Your “fix” to all of this is to punish “publishers” (web sites) for the content generated by OTHER people? Those who post?
SOME people here have argued that, since there has been at least one (several?) case(s) of hardcopy rags (newspapers) sued FOR THE WRITINGS OF OTHERS, namely letter-to-the-editor writers (it was all well and good to authoritarians that SOME people got punished for the writings of OTHER people), then the proper fix MUST be to perpetrate / perpetuate this obvious injustice right on over to the internet domain!
This is like arguing that the “fix” for a cop strangling to death, a black man (Eric Garner) on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies” is, not to STOP the injustice, but rather, to go and find some White and Hispanic and Asian men as well, and strangle them, as well, on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies”! THAT will make it all “fair”!
WHEN will authoritarians see and acknowledge their power-pig fascism?!?!
I have often stated that we NEED a "Section 230" for hardcopy rags!
So, Section 230 for cake bakers? You're fine with "Sorry, can't bake you a gay wedding cake for liability reasons."?
Sounds like the bad old days of the early-90s, when Americans envied N. Koreans for their freedom.
I am in favor of cake-bakers baking or not baking cakes for ANY reasons that they like, as long as they advertise their services truthfully! That is called the "freedom of private property"! NO ONE ever died for lack of a special cake for celebration purposes! Emergency rooms are a different story... But enough of digressions!
More FREEDOM and less Government Almighty PLEASE!!!
NY Times can be punished for what someone ELSE wrote in a letter-to-the-editor in their hardcopy rag! An injustice, to be “fixed” by punishing Facebook for the same kind of offenses!
In 1850, I imagine that perhaps some people in the USA were saying it isn’t fair that white folks hold black folks as slaves. Let’s “fix” it by having a bunch of black folks hold white slaves, too!
What kind of EVIL person fixes injustice by widening the spread of more injustice of the same kind? HOW does this “fix” ANYTHING?!?!
Section 230 allows the owners of private property (web sites in this case) to decide how their property is used. Section 230 favors private property rights, over the power-lusts of Marxists who want Government Almighty (not you the property owner) to decide matters of content moderation. Section 230 is that rare beast (like the 1A itself) that LIMITS the powers of Government Almighty!
All you sophistry can NOT hide these FACTS, from ANYONE, other than those who imagine that they can tear down Section 230 to PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH their enemies, like FacePoooo for example... While imagining (with no basis in fact or history) that they can endlessly pussy-grab, without their political enemies EVER dreaming of pussy-grabbing them right back! You want to believe that you can tear down Government Almighty self-limitations? And gamble that your political enemies will NEVER pussy-grab you right back? All of history SCREAMS at us, telling that this shit does NOT work in the long run! Go to North Korea... They LIKE your type there!
All your sophistry...
Go to North Korea
So, prior to 1996, we were all living in North Korea?
So, after we tear down Section 230 and the 1A, and GROW Government Almighty some more, we will all live in Heaven on Earth? Like in North Korea?
Notice how jeff, sarc, and sqrsly all use the sophistry argument after they have been pointed out being sophists for years.
Just projection at this point.
So, after we tear down Section 230 and the 1A, and GROW Government Almighty
'Repealing a law is growing government' sounds an awful lot like 'refusing to give is taking'.
'Repealing a law is growing government' is absolutely, 1,000% true when the law being repealed is one that LIMITS the powers of Government Almighty, which is EXACTLY what S230 does! In today's mortal-combat-tribal-hissy-fits environment, you will NEVER replace S230 with something more pro-freedom!
Notice how jeff, sarc, and sqrsly all use the sophistry argument after they have been pointed out being sophists for years.
White Mike and sarc started trying to identify the class of logical fallacy recently after months of being called out for their specific behaviors. Even jeffy tried his hand at it. Not surprisingly, they are bad at it.
You can identify sophists by the fact that they can't tell the difference between ad hominem and plain ridicule. I actually think about that before I escalate to insults. I used to be much more civil. But I find their behavior when insulted reveals them.
People who claim section 230 is what caused the internet to flourish are the same people who claimed net neutrality not passing would end the internet. It is such a meaningless statement.
People who claim ever-growing Government Almighty micro-management is what caused the human world to flourish are the same people who claimed Government Almighty would whither away. It is such an evil, power-grabbing LIE!
Abolishing Section 230 doesn't amount to "government micromanagement", it merely restores the same situation vis-a-vis free speech as 99.999% of the people in this country have to live under.
But to fascists like you, the corporate cronies of the government should get special legal protections so that they can libel people with impunity.
Correct. It is a special exemption from legal liability granted to a bunch of privileged corporations who lobbied for it.
And fools like you are defending it.
I would never minimize the tribulations of being a teenager, but Haugen seems woefully naive. Young girls have always compared themselves to the photos of fashion models in magazines. Teens were vicious to one another long before Instagram.
"I would never minimize the tribulations of being a teenager..." *proceeds to completely ignore the half the population that, not only is more likely to successfully commit suicide if attempted, but is also far more likely to maim themselves imitating skateboarding, freerunning, BMX, etc. videos*.
You are really stretching to find a bitch to make against a Reason writer.
But, I know, it’s important to signal to the club by bitching about Reason, even as they provide you a free-of-charge online clubhouse where you can hang out every day.
You are really stretching to find a bitch to make against a Reason writer.
Just so we're clear, you're fine with Greenhut's rather specific "Women were delusional, underhanded bitches well before the internet." statement?
1) He didn’t say that. 2) His sentence about girls was one sentence out of a paragraph, and it was also truth.
Casually Mad says... "...proceeds to completely ignore the half the population that, not only is more likely to successfully commit suicide if attempted, but is also far more likely to maim themselves imitating skateboarding, freerunning, BMX, etc. videos..."
If Casually Mad proposes to use FREE SPEECH (while also freely allowing listeners to walk away if they don't want to hear it) to fix these problems, I am all in favor! And I would even say that OLD rags, from pre-internet days, Cosmo, Teen, Vogue, etc., magazines are spiritually-emotionally-morally repugnant, just like FacePooooo, in narcissistic look-at-me-the-perfectly-beautiful one (with a perfect life), all false and vain... But I am NOT full of my OWN vice and stupidity, enough to believe that giving Government Almighty more POWER (just so long as it is in the name of MY political tribe) has ANY chance in HELL of fixing it, w/o replacing it with something far WORSE!!!
Power pigs are attracted to power for ALL of the wrong reasons! "Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing"!
PS, "Reason" is about politics, NOT morality! So WHY does Casually Mad expect Reason to hector us about morality, if he is NOT advocating a theocracy?
So WHY does Casually Mad expect Reason to hector us about morality, if he is NOT advocating a theocracy?
^Watch in awe as SQRLSY One blithely asserts that religion is the only source of morality.
I see NO answers to the question from you, but I am NOT surprised! Where DO you get your morality, to justify your self-righteous lusts for speech control by Government Almighty? WHOSE morality (of what type) makes you think that the replacement to S230 will allow YOU to pussy-grab your enemies, more than they can pussy-grab you right back?
As you, yourself, quoted, what he said was: "Young girls have always compared themselves to the photos of fashion models in magazines."
By eliminating that regulation, many conservatives think they will punish tech companies for their alleged censorship of conservative views, but the opposite is more likely. The firms won't let their sites turn into the equivalent of your spam folder—so they will do what progressives want and tightly control everything that's posted.
This is precisely right. If Section 230 is repealed, there won't be any more comment sections on forums such as Reason, and if tech companies become legally responsible for the vomit that every troll decides to spew onto its forums, then they will narrowly restrict every word that is permitted to be said on their forums, or just close up altogether. It would be back to the pre-Internet days when the only information that we got was what was presented to us by gatekeeper institutions. If that is what you want, then go right ahead and advocate for repeal of Section 230.
and *if* tech companies become legally responsible for the vomit that every troll decides to spew onto its forums
Wait, so it's not a sure thing that section 230 is actually protecting anyone from anything? There's a chance we could repeal section 230 and nobody would be able to find social media and hosting providers liable?
Huh.
As you very well know, it was that CompuServe case, AS WELL AS the Prodigy case, that inspired Section 230. Because, in the Prodigy case:
https://itif.org/publications/2021/02/22/overview-section-230-what-it-why-it-was-created-and-what-it-has-achieved
A few years after Cubby, the New York Supreme Court heard a similar case, Stratton Oakmont v. Prodigy (1995).13 The defendant was another online service, Prodigy Services Company. An anonymous user posted defamatory statements on Prodigy’s “Money Talk” bulletin board about Daniel Porush and his brokerage firm, Stratton Oakmont, Inc. The court took a conflicting approach to Stratton Oakmont. Because Prodigy had a set of content guidelines that outlined rules for user-generated content, a software program that filtered out offensive language, and moderators who enforced the content guidelines—mechanisms the court referred to as forms of “editorial control”—the court held that Prodigy was a publisher, not a distributer, and therefore was liable for the defamatory statements posted on the “Money Talk” bulletin board.
As you very well know, it was that CompuServe case, AS WELL AS the Prodigy case, that inspired Section 230. Because, in the Prodigy case:
Thank you for raising the point. United States Representative Christopher Cox (R-CA) had read an article about the two cases and felt the decisions were backwards. "It struck me that if that rule was going to take hold then the internet would become the Wild West and nobody would have any incentive to keep the internet civil," Cox stated.[21]
The 'backwards' preference of Cubby v. Compuserve would be to hold Compuserve liable for content over which they exercised no control.
"...then they will narrowly restrict every word that is permitted to be said on their forums, or just close up altogether."
I agree with you on this, for the most part, regarding the 230 stuff, but with changes to various platforms like Youtube getting rid of their dislike button or Yahoo shutting down all the comments on their news site, I think we're already on the way to that sort of place already, just more slowly.
Remember people Tweeting every 20 min.? Remember goatse.cx? Turns out lots of people don't want to share every minute of their lives and lots of other people (some of them the same) don't want every minute of other people's lives shared with them. Cox and Wyden felt this normalization wasn't happening fast enough and that Congress needed to do something. Who could've known that Congress getting involved wouldn't make anything faster or things generally better?
The whole reason Yahoo shut down its comments was laws that abridged Section 230 protections in other countries.
This is a perfect, real world example of what WILL happen if section 230 is removed. Yahoo was specifically worried about laws in Australia that would hold the company liable for libel by its commenters. Money-bag corporations like Facebook and Google see this as a feature not a bug. They have the machine learning and censoring organizations, and they can scale it out to their hearts' content. Yahoo, and countless other smaller companies cannot do the same, so they will be at a competitive disadvantage.
Of course, Australia doesn't have a 1A, nor a Cubby v. Compuserve to establish that Yahoo wasn't responsible for speech they didn't moderate, nor a Ron Cox to assert that they should've been. But, other than a completely different legal system and cultural ethos (see COVID), yeah, the two countries are exactly alike. Especially when it comes to the internet.
1) The first amendment has nothing to do with civil suits.
2) There is nothing good for a company about relying on court precedent. And indeed, CompuServe and Prodigy each created their own conflicting guidance to companies, such that lightly funded companies are at a disadvantage compared to money bag companies.
Next time you go googling for evidence, you should probably actually read about what was happening during the pre 230 era, because your constant attempt to bring up CompuServe without Prodigy is either ignorant or disingenuous.
I was in the room when Yahoo made the decision, and it was not fear of Australia's impact that led to the decision (Yahoo's Australian operations run under a separate company as part of a joint venture in the country, similar to Yahoo Japan). It was fear that this issue was cascading around the world, and the company needed to invest NOW in automated moderation, or pull up stakes. The latter was chosen.
The First Amendment does have something to do with civil suits. The rule for where free speech ends and defamation begins is cabined by the First Amendment. A court has no more power to sanction an individual for protected expression than the executive does. The fact that the court is doing the sanctioning on behalf of a third party (plaintiff) is irrelevant.
The real variable there is incorporation. Before Fourteenth Amendment incorporation applied more-or-less the federal bill of rights equivalently against the States as the feds, a State court (hypothetically without a state constitution "freedom of speech" equivalent) could have set different rules.
The Trumpkin you're coddling is right insofar as if we had a binding precedent protecting publishers from liability for removing user content, we wouldn't need Section 230. But his argument is, as ever, facile because it's obviously insufficient to only have protection if you don't remove/screen any user content (which is all you get from Cubby). For a start, platforms must get rid of child pornography, based on other laws.
The "reassurance" here in the Trumpkin kill-230 underpants gnomes plan is that Facebook wouldn't actually be liable after removing user content, because there's obviously no viable claim for a user to make out based on an internet terms of service agreement. They usually read: 'we own all your shit, we reserve the right to end service at any time with no notice.' So Facebook would probably be comfortable telling plaintiffs to fuck off and relying on their massive legal department to fight the cases down. But smaller companies wouldn't be able to do that. So during the ... phase of this plan, everyone besides the big platforms gets sued to death. And in the "profit" phase we're left in a world (1) without the right to control content on your own platform (2) where larger platforms are further entrenched and (3) trial lawyers are richer.
That the Trumpkins are stupid enough to endorse this is dismaying but not surprising.
So during the ... phase of this plan, everyone besides the big platforms gets sued to death.
You seem to get the idea except where I (supposedly) assert '...', you assert "Everyone is going to sue the heck out of companies that don't have any money." despite the fact that the precedence was Compuserve and Prodigy and not Plumber Joe from Plumber Joe's Plumbing BBS.
I've made no promises about heaven on Earth after repealing S230. The only promise I make is a complete repeal of the CDA, one less intrusion of Congress into private business, and that laws like FOSTA/SESTA and the above will have to stand on their own merits rather than the 'validity' of S230.
As a formal matter you're right, people don't simply file lawsuits, and that wouldn't be step one during your ... phase. What they do first is send angry letters purportedly signed by a lawyer. That's enough to scare off most people from doing things they're legally entitled to do.
So, in your post-230 dystopia, Plumber Joe's BBS gets to decide between leaving the third party Neo-Nazi Star Trek (*of-age) erotica up on the BBS, or risk the threatened lawsuit. Obviously, Plumber Joe's BBS is not going to last long as a viable community for discourse.
So, what will likely happen in the medium term of your ... phase is the mass removal of comment sections from all but the largest internet companies.
That is, all but for your Great Satan, Facebook, which, owing to its scale and resources, will continue to shit on your face and laugh as you scream for policies that would entrench it commercially. The angrier you get, the dumber and more left wing your policy prescriptions get.
Next time you go googling for evidence, you should probably actually read about what was happening during the pre 230 era, because your constant attempt to bring up CompuServe without Prodigy is either ignorant or disingenuous.
Just as above, thanks for bringing it up. IMO, Compuserve is the most egregious violation but Prodigy completes the discussion about the 'spirit of the law'. See above, Cox felt both Compuserve and Prodigy were wrongly decided. So:
Compuserve- Found innocent of libel because they didn't knowingly or actively provide false information. Opposite opinion: They should be guilty despite not knowingly or actively provide false information.
Prodigy- Found guilty of libel because they knowingly and actively provided false information. Opposite opinion: They should be innocent of libel despite knowingly and actively providing false information.
Section 230 may change the legal outcomes of the cases but to grant it the power to retroactively change the facts is religious. Cox and the broader CDA were specifically written and enacted to clean smut off the internet, they specifically wanted to force service providers to get rid of all obscenity on their websites; an action that in virtually any other medium or context would have libertarians rightfully calling for the whole idea to be shitcanned and the Congresscritters responsible fired or worse. But, suddenly, libertarians somehow developed a conscience or some sense of pragmatism about Congress' role in the limiting of obscenity on the internet.
I was in the room when Yahoo made the decision,
I'm calling mostly bullshit. You may've been in an employee lounge or a branch office meeting when they announced the decision internally but the idea that you were in the boardroom with the legal team when the decision was made is bullshit. The only thing that prevents me from calling 100% bullshit is the assertion that in 2020, more than 20 yrs. after Cubby and Prodigy, Yahoo suddenly realized they need to invest *NOW* in automated moderation. Such utter lack of even minimal foresight is laughably Yahoo.
While we're reframing other people's arguments, your two points are (1) your bizzaro world (literally, "opposite," when in reality a case can be reversed based on any one of its premises, not just the one you trot out as a strawman) of what a Congressman "meant" when he endorsed 230 to overrule the existing case law and (2) an argument against the conduct regulations (i.e., no smut allowed) of the CDA, not Section 230.
For the people in the audience, here are some minimally-distorted (Wikipedia) summaries of those cases:
Cubby, Inc. v. CompuServe Inc., 776 F. Supp. 135 (S.D.N.Y. 1991) was a 1991 court decision in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York which held that Internet service providers were subject to traditional defamation law for their hosted content. The case established a precedent for Internet service provider liability by applying defamation law, originally intended for hard copies of written works, to the Internet medium. The court held that although CompuServe did host defamatory content on its forums, CompuServe was merely a distributor, rather than a publisher, of the content. As a distributor, CompuServe could only be held liable for defamation if it knew, or had reason to know, of the defamatory nature of the content
Stratton Oakmont, Inc. v. Prodigy Services Co., 23 Media L. Rep. 1794 (N.Y. Sup. Ct. 1995), is a 1995 U.S. New York Supreme Court decision which held that online service providers could be held liable for the speech of their users. The Stratton court held that Prodigy was liable as the publisher of the content created by its users because it exercised editorial control over the messages on their bulletin boards in three ways: 1) by posting Content Guidelines for users, 2) by enforcing those guidelines with "Board Leaders", and 3) by utilizing screening software designed to remove offensive language
Important note: neither of these cases is binding authority on the vast majority of U.S. courts. So though it is said 230 was meant to "replace" them, the law, in the absence of 230, is not the holdings of these cases in the majority of the country.
Here's my take on what Congress (not one Congressman misrepresented) wanted to overrule: from Cubby they wanted to overrule the bare presumption that a website was a publisher for purposes of common law defamation, akin to a major newspaper, that was strictly liable in for what it displayed from third parties. From Prodigy they wanted to overrule the premise that a website making the effort to clean up user content made its liability more likely.
Keep in mind, the reason a publisher was liable at common law is because they select and amplify a third party malfeasor's harmful (defamatory, smut, whatever) message. What the anti-230 jihadis can't seem to grasp is that 230 was designed to protect the online equivalent of bulletin boards, not the online equivalent of newspapers. Bulletin boards, especially the online equivalents unconstrained by a two dimensional space, neither select nor amplify (anywhere near to the extent of a traditional newspaper or site) in the context of other content that was or could have been selected and amplified.
There are certainly things an online service can do to bring itself closer to a newspaper, i.e. putting some content on something akin to the "front page" is like amplification. But that's not people's Facebook profiles - which appear to be the main target of the metaphorical jihadi bombings.
Something like Reddit is at least in that direction, in that it has a "front page." To the extent Reddit is goosing the algorithm and actively selecting what goes there, you could argue they're a publisher of the contents of that front page and should be equivalently liable for third party content giving rise to a suit that appears there. But because we're talking about algorithms sifting user content there are two big hurdles to such a claim (assuming no 230).
The theory goes, Reddit is liable because users liked Content X (alongside hundreds of other items in the relevant time period), and their algorithm promotes things that are liked. This is rather unlike a front page article in a newspaper, which can fit, what, four such articles? It is different both in terms of selectivity (the intent) and amplification (the actual harm) which could give rise to liability, assuming we're following Cubby and treating Reddit like a newspaper.
I can't even conceive of a world where Prodigy is the rule. That case is simply ass backwards, punishing a platform in proportion to its efforts to moderate content. Moderation practices should have been a defense to a claim that it was negligently hosting defamatory third party content - even if it didn't catch that particular item, it was making appropriate efforts (and was thus not negligent). I suspect the that decision happened is because the court was thoughtlessly applying (and rejecting) a newspaper defense theory to the newspaper liability paradigm (which it was using because of the preceding Cubby case). The court was using the editorial control test to see if it was really a "newspaper." Basically, the slow preschooler forcing the square peg into the round hole through sheer force.
The issue is created when you create default rules of liability, which is what the it's-a-newspaper rule from Cubby is. It's not a negligence claim, it's strict liability (once the content is established to be defamatory). By baking in the presumption that the defendant is a publisher: selecter, and amplifier of third party (harmful) content, you assert it should be automatically liable when such content appears. That's a dubious rule as applied to newspapers, let alone a website.
As a society, I think we've moved to the consensus that the traditional newspaper liability rule should be rejected in the vast majority of circumstances. 230's rule should be the rule for every sort of platform: you're not liable for third party content on your platform on the basis you removed some of it.
And Europe explicitly passed laws making the host responsible.
Because the government has such a great record on health advice. Like those nutritional guidelines that tell you to eat mostly starch. Or low fat diets.
Again, I can remember when Crisco was better for you than lard because it came from vegetables. Now, it's literally referred to as "toxic".
Mmmmmmm.... Lard...... It's the only thing I fry with, other than butter. Animal fat or go home.
Whoops, that's not true! I also use duck fat.
Whoops, that's not true! I also use duck fat.
Technically (the best kind of correct) lard is only from pigs, not all animals. Colloquially (and in my context) I used it like you did, "subcutaneous animal fat", which would include duck fat.
Tallow is also acceptable.
And I believe that traditionally lard is specifically the fat around the internal organs of pigs.
A duck isn't an animal? Wtf?
Stop denying ducks their animality, Sarc!
Reminds me of a joke. What is the difference between a mallard with a cold and sarc?
One of them is a sick duck and the other likes to…forgot the rest.
If this goes through I would expect regulations policing "political misinformation" to soon follow, with the party in power determining what constitutes "misinformation." That of course will be welcomed by whichever party is in power. Principles shminciples.
Precisely. Republicans would argue against policing of political misinformation now, while Democrats are in power in Washington, D.C. But as soon as Republicans are in power again, they'd be like, "Now, hold on, this is different..."
Bowf. Sidez.
For 2 years he cried about whataboutism. Lol.
Mike Laursen would argue against policing of obscenity on the internet if it were Chris Cox passing the laws but, as long as Ron Wyden signs off on it too, even if it gets 99% repealed, the remaining 1% is nonpartisan legislative gold.
I'm sure Dear Leader would have loved to have gone after people who said mean things about him. Didn't he try, only to be rebuffed?
Who is naive enough to believe they want to protect free speech? They hate free speech.
Everyone who thinks that when Cox was worried about the internet becoming the "Wild West" people would actually be gunned down in the middle of the information superhighway at high noon.
The firms won't let their sites turn into the equivalent of your spam folder—so they will do what progressives want and tightly control everything that's posted.
I understand this point. But, I think it misses the counterpoint. The resulting situation would at least be politically neutral in its censorship. Social media will focus its censorship efforts in avoiding legal liability. Under the status quo, because they're given an exemption to the same laws that other purveyors of third-party opinion operate under, they're free to base their censorship on the political sensibilities of management. I have no problem with any company or organization taking an editorial stance, but we have things like libel law and copyright law for a reason. And providing a few select parties legal privilege hardly seems in keeping with libertarian principle.
Social media will focus its censorship efforts in avoiding legal liability.
As opposed to political liability, and it should be highlighted that this would be to the benefit of criminal liability and/or nominally, crime reduction and even equality under the law. Posts by both the Neo-Nazi Proud Boys calling for the killing of a Jew or Jews and posts by Louis Farrakhan calling for the killing of a Jew or Jews would be equally criminally liable. The posts about killing people, all of them, would be illegal/liable. Not just the posts about killing blacks/whites as filtered by any given Samaritan.
That’s just it, though. Curation is a type of speech. Saying calls to kill Jews are unacceptable when a new-Nazi makes them, but okay when a black nationalist makes them is making a statement about the two calls. By all means, the social media giants should be free to make those statements or any other statements they want. What they shouldn’t be able to do is escape the same liability anyone else incurs for doing so.
"The resulting situation would at least be politically neutral in its censorship"
This is an unattainable goal. Do you think the government will balk when YouTube starts censoring the climate science, medical science and others that conflict with the Government's narrative? Even if that narrative is largely politically driven?
For fucks sake, conservatives handed the government the Patriot Act and it took less than a decade for liberals to weaponize it against those same conservatives. Don't. Give. Them. This. Power.
Do you think the government will balk when YouTube starts censoring the climate science, medical science and others that conflict with the Government's narrative? Even if that narrative is largely politically driven?
Do you think Section 230 prevents the Government from persecuting private companies for their political views?
They already ARE censoring such material, in case you haven’t been following the news. Except, they’re doing so with a get-out-of-liability-free card for material that doesn’t conflict with the politically-driven narrative. All that a revocation of Section 230 protection would do is revoke that card, and give them reason to worry whether libels or IP violations that they’ve done nothing to stop would hold up in a court of law.
So, should we take the principle you are espousing down to a finer level of fractal detail?
When you post a comment here at Reason, should the government require your comment to be fair and balanced, instead of reflecting your individual political sensibility?
I mean, if private social media companies are not allowed to have a political point of view, why should individual social media users be allowed to have a political point of view?
I can’t tell if that’s an intentional misrepresentation of what I’ve argued, or if you’re really that stupid. I haven’t argued that the social media giants need to be fair and balanced, rather that they need to not publish libel or violations of intellectual property, or at least need to be held as liable for doing so as any other publisher. Since my comments contain neither, the question is moot.
By all means, the social media giants can have whatever political point of view their little hearts desire. What they shouldn’t be able to do is publish libel or violate intellectual property in furtherance of that point of view and then hide behind Section 230 to avoid the liability any other publisher faces.
Also, it's pretty dishonest to headline an article "Government Regulation of Social Media Won't Protect Free Speech" when the proposed regulation is precisely about limiting speech.
Wouldn't an necessary element of dishonesty be intention to deceive. It's not like Reason wrote the headline to trick anyone into supporting the proposed legislation; they clearly oppose the legislation.
It is curious that the headlines on the Reason blog are often inaccurate or don't match the text of the blog post. It would be interesting to know whether the writers do their own headlines, or if someone else is writing the headlines.
Wouldn't an necessary element of dishonesty be intention to deceive.
Wow. It really is no wonder you morons think you need Congress to protect you and service providers from other speakers. So, if you saw a flyer or school textbook or a billboard that said "Mike Laursen likes to fuck goats." (assuming you don't) you would think that, lacking motivation, the flyer or textbook is honest?
The only two things required for dishonesty is a statement or representation and that the statement or representation is factually false.
Donald Trump has launched TRUTH Social, solving the problem of conservatives and right-wingers not having a social media platform (other than the Reason comments section) where they can post their uncensored thoughts and information. And Trump solved this problem using free market methods.
Conservatives can now relax and move on.
Yep. Pay no mind to the totalitarian state and speak freely... somewhere else.
Don't worry, the guy we attempted and failed to criminally impeach, twice, has got a stable platform for you to go to that we totally won't #resist #byanymeansnecessary.
Also, no need to worry that even if your political views on a niche topic are purely conjectural and/or even slightly askance of hard left, the sharing of them on a platform owned by Trump won't be used against you or your ideas.
You've never been 100% free to spread lies that get people killed.
what's a lie that gets people killed?
Collateral damage.
You mean like "2 weeks to bend the curve"?
Hey healthy kiddo, this vaccine is safe.
There are black owned hotels. Why should we ask for equal public accommodation?
I blame the gov't for being a dick. I blame Fakebook and Twigger for bending over and lubing up the American public.
We can call it the "Ministry of Truth" or something catchy like that.
And who needs a "memory hole" when all the world's knowledge is on Wikipedia, and updated by crowd-sourced wisdom when facts and attitudes change?
If Wikipedia has a liberal (or anti-factual) bias, then WHY is this data to be found there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States
I don't know if the table will import very well... If not, go there and search-string on the text before the table...
In 2019, with respect to the reading skills of the nation's grade-four public school students, 34% performed at or above the Proficient level (solid academic performance) and 65% performed at or above the Basic level (partial mastery of the proficient level skills). The results by race / ethnicity were as follows:[74]
Race / Ethnicity Proficient level Basic level
Asian . . . . 57% 82%
White . . . . . . . .44% 76%
Two or more races 40% 72%
National Average 34% 65%
Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander 24% 55%
Hispanic 23% 54%
American Indian/Alaska Native 20% 50%
Black 18% 47%
MeThinks Thou protesteth ENTIRELY too muchly!
The data that remains are allowed to remain if they serve the agenda?
"Mighty Whitey is keeping ALL of the others down" is VERY clearly put down as a lie, above! I can NOT see how that, in any way, serves the so-called "liberal agenda"!
Is it me or does the Facebook whistleblower's "bombshell" revelations seem like much ado about very little?
No, it amounts to a lobbying effort to get Amy Klobuchar to appoint a Health Misinformation Czar. You do understand how this game works, right?
Zuckerberg wants the government to do his platform moderation. He produces some ads demanding just such a thing, puts them in the can. Then he dispatches a "whistleblower" screeching about how Facebook is failing in its moderation duties, while being very careful to not really disparage the company. Days later, Zuckerberg releases ads demanding the government do its auditing for it, and demands changes to section 230.
*gasp* You've been planning this all day!
I've been plannin' it all week, son! The shit is chess, not checkers.
I mean, come on, this isn't a normal whistleblower who shows up, claims Zuck "touched her inappropriately in the corridor" (the corridor? Is that what they're calling it now?) and then let's the media rip it apart like hyenas fighting over a scrap of meat. She shows up, explains processes, reveals documents, is very careful to not be too critical of Facebook as a company, and then is flanked by professional lawyers, invited to panels and is immediately on deck providing consulting advice on exactly how to fix this.
(the corridor? Is that what they're calling it now?)
Phrasing.
The idea that she's so attractive and/or that Zuck is so hard up for some action that he would do that in a public hallway is gall that no man would be allowed to get away with.
Trumptards could try a little personal responsibility.
With every lie they peddle and death they cause with their lies, they argue for some public policy response to the damage they are causing.
If you want to maximize your freedom, it would behoove you to attempt to minimize your stupidity and recklessness.
With every lie they peddel and death they cause with their lies, they argue for some public policy response to the damage they are causing.
If you wanted to maximize social responsibility and well being, it would behoove you to minimize your stupidity and recklessness.
The gulags, firing squads and gas chambers wouldn't have been necessary had it not been for you Trumptards!
So Tony could post wisdom at THEIR sites. Just as Tony sees all non-communists as "the same thing," we see coercive initiators of violence like Tony and Republicans as the same thing. Both are also religions, so reasoning with them is not an option. They are here as parasites because their memberships and vote share are withering, yet find schadenfreude, not sympathy. Anyone with sense would go somewhere else. See "Through a Glass Rosily" by Comrade Blair of the POUM.
LOL It's not DESIGNED to protect free speech. It's designed to allow the Ministry of Truth to decide what is wrongthink.
And quite naturally the 'emergency' would never end.
A century ago the Dem paper got the public notices contract if the Dem machine won and vice-versa. So slanting paid off. During WW1 and WW2, censorship involved pistols. HUAC bedeviled German Bunds, Silvershirts and Conservatives holding hands with Nazis before the surrender, pestering communists only afterward. In the 90s newspapers were horrified that nobody under 30 even glanced at the papers. So how was indoctrination and censorship to function? By attacking the new media, of course! Faecebook just doesn't get it.
Facebook has no power over me, and never has. Neither has Twitter. Life is good. Do not engage.
The government is harder to avoid, and takes a substantial cut of my earnings twice a month. And the price keeps going up even if the benefits do not.
Government's (Biden Administration's) Regulation of Social Media Will Destroy Free Speech and the Second Amendment.
Thank you Reason for supporting Joe Biden.
Klobuchar competes with Waren for the title of dumbest cunt inside the Beltway.
I wish that were true. Klobuchar is dangerously smart. What is uniquely stupid is her electorate. The fat, insecure, emotionally bereft unmarriagable women of the Midwest, who believe if we just get a little more security we won't have to fear that pesky liberty anymore.
She chooses her narratives accordingly.
So, once again, we need to point out to the usual idiots that Section 230 was written to protect censorship, not free speech.
That's why it was part of the "Communications Decency Act". Prior to that act, the Federal court rulings were that if a computer information service did not exercise control over what users posted on it, it was not liable for the content of user posts, while if it did exercise control, it was liable for the content user posts. In the exact same way that in the physical world (then and now) FedEx is not liable for libel in the books that it carries, but a bookstore is (on a notice-and-takedown basis).
So, since the authors of the Communications Decency Act wanted computer information services to censor porn and "hate speech", they wrote in liability protection for services that censored.
A full and complete repeal of Section 230 would take the law back to where things were before the Communication Decency Act; platforms could choose between being liable for every user post transmitted across them, or refraining from exercising editorial control over user posts.
If you expect that they would all universally choose both spending more money on censorship and liability for user posts, I'm going to suspect brain damage on your part.
The point of government regulation is not free speech, it is government regulation.
Individual Justice NOT just any run-of-the-mill dictator regulation.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
GET the GOV-GUNS AWAY from the Press.
"...Xavier Becerra, the former California attorney general with a reputation for being a partisan hack,.."
A well-eared reputation.
“Amazing write-up!”
“Nice info!”