The Details of OSHA's Vaccination Rule for Private Employees Suggest Several Ways It Could Be Vulnerable to Legal Challenges
Federal courts will have to decide whether the rule is "necessary" to protect workers from a "grave danger."

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) unveiled its long-awaited vaccine mandate for private employees today. This "emergency temporary standard" (ETS), which the Biden administration first announced two months ago, demands that businesses with 100 or more employees either require them to be vaccinated against COVID-19 or adopt a policy requiring unvaccinated employees to wear face masks and submit to weekly virus testing. Employers must comply with most of the order within 30 days, although they have an additional month to implement the testing requirements.
Some large companies already require vaccination or will welcome the OSHA standard as a justification for doing so. But the rule is bound to provoke lawsuits by some businesses and trade groups, and OSHA's poor track record in defending prior emergency standards suggests this one may be legally vulnerable.
The agency says the ETS, which covers "two-thirds of the nation's private-sector workforce," will "protect more than 84 million workers from the spread of the coronavirus on the job." The disease poses a "grave danger" to employees, it says, and "immediate action is necessary to protect them."
That language tracks the statutory requirements for an ETS, which bypasses the usual rule making process, allowing OSHA to impose regulations that take effect immediately. OSHA's determination that COVID-19 in the workplace qualifies as a "grave danger" is subject to judicial review, and so is its assertion that the specific policy it chose is "necessary" to address that danger.
The ETS includes some exceptions designed to satisfy the latter requirement. The rule does not apply to "employees who do not report to a workplace where other individuals are present," employees who are "working from home," or "employees who work exclusively outdoors."
OSHA also is allowing some leeway in the use of face masks. They are not required "when an employee is alone in a room with floor to ceiling walls and a closed door," "while the employee is eating or drinking at the workplace or for identification purposes in compliance with safety and security requirements," or "where the employer can show that the use of face coverings is infeasible or creates a greater hazard."
Still, the burdens imposed by the ETS are substantial.
Employers have to "determine the vaccination status of each employee, obtain acceptable proof of vaccination from vaccinated employees, maintain records of each employee's vaccination status, and maintain a roster of each employee's vaccination status." They must give employees up to four hours of paid time when they get their shots, plus "reasonable time and paid sick leave to recover from any side effects experienced following each primary vaccination dose."
Businesses are required to make sure that unvaccinated workers are tested "at least weekly (if in the workplace at least once a week) or within 7 days before returning to work (if away from the workplace for a week or longer)." They must "require employees to promptly provide notice when they receive a positive COVID-19 test or
are diagnosed with COVID-19." Employees who test positive must be removed from the workplace "immediately" and allowed to return only after they test negative, comply with isolation requirements, or present "a recommendation to return to work from a licensed healthcare provider."
OSHA says the ETS "does not require employers to pay for testing," although "employers may be required to pay for testing to comply with other laws, regulations, collective bargaining agreements, or other collectively negotiated agreements." If employees have to foot the bill for testing, which might amount to $150 or so a week, that cost will provide an added vaccination incentive, although that is not the official goal of requiring testing.
The hassle and discomfort of wearing a face mask all day, although officially a safeguard aimed at protecting co-workers, likewise will encourage employees to be vaccinated. Employers must "ensure that each employee who is not fully vaccinated wears a face covering when indoors or when occupying a vehicle with another person for work purposes."
Employers who adopt a "mandatory vaccination policy" can comply with the ETS even if some employees are not actually vaccinated. OSHA allows the following exceptions: "those for whom a vaccine is medically contraindicated, those for whom medical necessity requires a delay in vaccination, or those legally entitled to a reasonable accommodation under federal civil rights laws because they have a disability or sincerely held religious beliefs, practices, or observances that conflict with the vaccination requirement."*
The vaccination exceptions allowed by OSHA do not include people who are resistant to COVID-19 because they were previously infected. While there is considerable debate about how the protection offered by naturally acquired immunity compares to the protection offered by vaccination, the lack of an exception for people who have recovered from COVID-19 could be grounds for questioning the necessity of OSHA's requirements.
The ETS also includes paperwork and reporting requirements. Employers must provide workers with information about "the requirements of the ETS and workplace policies and procedures established to implement the ETS; vaccine efficacy, safety, and the benefits of being vaccinated (by providing the CDC document 'Key Things to Know About COVID-19 Vaccines'); protections against retaliation and discrimination; and laws that provide for criminal penalties for knowingly supplying false statements or documentation." They must "report work-related COVID-19 fatalities to OSHA within 8 hours of learning about them, and work-related COVID-19 in-patient hospitalizations within 24 hours of the employer learning about the hospitalization."
As OSHA sees it, the burdens imposed by its mandate are easily justified by its benefits. The agency estimates that the rule will "save over 6,500 worker lives and prevent over 250,000 hospitalizations [among employees] over the course of the next six months." It says "the mortality and morbidity risk to employees from COVID-19 is so dire that the grave danger from exposures to SARS-CoV-2 is clear."
Employers who challenge the ETS no doubt will contest the reliability of OSHA's estimates. The agency says it has "attempted to quantify the potential number of hospitalizations and fatalities that this ETS could avert by increasing workforce vaccination rates." But it concedes that "predicting the health impact of this ETS is particularly challenging, given the ever-changing nature of the pandemic and the many factors that may motivate workers to become fully vaccinated."
A more basic question is whether OSHA's estimates, assuming they are in the right ballpark, are enough to establish a "grave danger." The Occupational Safety and Health Act, which lays out the criteria for an ETS, does not define that term. "Although the federal courts have ruled on challenges to previous ETS promulgations," the Congressional Research Service notes in a recent report, "the courts have provided no clear guidance as to what constitutes a grave danger."
OSHA argues that COVID-19's contagiousness, its potentially lethal consequences, and the opportunities for transmission among employees make it a "grave danger" in the workplace. It takes the position that a "grave danger" exists whenever a hazard has the potential to kill a substantial number of employees nationwide. But in the case of COVID-19, the nature and degree of the danger depend on factors that vary widely between workplaces, including vaccination rates, the health and age of employees, and physical conditions such as ventilation and crowding.
The danger from COVID-19 is less serious, for example, in a well-ventilated workplace where close contact between employees is minimal. It is also less serious when most employees are already vaccinated, or when the work force is relatively young and healthy. A legal challenge could argue that OSHA should have taken such differences into account instead of assuming that a "grave danger" exists in all indoor workplaces.
OSHA rarely issues emergency standards, and it is not hard to see why. Six of the nine OSHA emergency standards issued from 1971 to 1983 were challenged in court, and those challenges were partly or fully successful in all but one case. On July 21, when OSHA published an ETS requiring specific COVID-19 precautions in health care settings, it was the first time the agency had attempted an emergency standard in 38 years. It was also the first time OSHA had cited the danger posed by a communicable disease as the justification for an ETS.
None of this necessarily means that lawsuits challenging OSHA's latest ETS will succeed. But it would be a mistake simply to assume, as The New York Times does, that "OSHA has the authority to introduce a vaccine mandate." Whether OSHA actually has that authority—and if so, how far it extends—is something the courts will have to determine.
*CORRECTION: This post originally suggested that employees who qualified for exemptions from a "mandatory vaccination policy" might not have to wear masks or undergo testing. The published text of the ETS indicates that they would.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
JACOB SULLUM is a senior editor at Reason.
TLDR
He's not so bad if the subject isn't mean tweets.
This article would have been a lot more fun if the Baidens had announced it in a tweet.
Yeah, Sullum's TDS is disappointing and annoying. But outside of that he's pretty solid. Does lots of good stuff on guns and drugs.
I am making $165 an hour working from home. i was greatly surprised at the same time as my neighbour advised me she changed into averaging $ninety five however I see the way it works now. I experience masses freedom now that i'm my non-public boss.
that is what I do...... READ MORE
Seriously I don’t know why more people haven’t tried this, I work two shifts, 2 hours in the day and 2 in the evening…h And i get surly a check of $12600 what’s awesome is I m working from home so I get more time with my kids.
Try it, you won’t regret it........CASHAPP NOW
Sarah getting Paid upto $18953 in the week, working on-line at home. I’m Student. I shocked when my sister’s told me about her check that was $97k. It’s very easy to do.FTg Everybody will get this job. Go to home media tab for additional details……
So I started.............. E-CASH
Whether OSHA actually has that authority—and if so, how far it extends—is something the courts will have to determine.
So he didn't take a position against it and he could have just referenced the multiple articles at Volokh instead of reiterating it without credit. Pretty weak sauce.
These are 2 pay checks $78367 and $87367. that i received in last 2 months. I am very happy that i can make thousands in my part time and now i am enjoying my life. Everybody can do this and earn lots of dollars from home in very short time period.FCe Your Success is one step away Click Below Webpage…..
Just visit this website now.......... Pays 24
Seriously I don’t know why more people haven’t tried this, I work two shifts, 2 hours in the day and 2 in the evening…YJb And i get surly a check of $12600 what's awesome is I m working from home so I get more time with my kids.
Try it, you won't regret it! ……...........VISIT HERE
Which they wouldn’t do, because announcing Presidential orders via Twitter is a really oddball and thing to do.
Consider the underlying legal authority often cited to support government vaccination mandates. In the USA, the Supreme Court decision Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905) is often cited as their underlying legal authority. The thing is, that decision supported a government requiring vaccinations against smallpox, which was 30% fatal at that time, or pay a substantial monetary fine of $150 (about $4,000 today). The smallpox vaccination, which provides true immunity against that virus, had been widely used for decades globally by 1905.
One might ask, is it legitimate to equate COVID 19 with smallpox? Smallpox was often fatal while leaving survivors maimed and scarred. COVID 19, while sometimes fatal, has yet to reach the fatality rate of seasonal flu (4 to 5%).
For what it's worth, I have all my vaccinations, not because of some mandate, but because it makes sense for me after thorough and deliberate consideration. I'd take another smallpox vaccination today even though I had one as a kid and still have the scar to prove it. Now extinct in the wild, smallpox was an incredibly deadly disease, one worthy of a vaccination mandate in my humble opinion.
The smallpox vaccination, which provides true immunity against that virus, had been widely used for decades globally by 1905.
idk what you mean by 'true immunity'. The efficacy of that vaccine was never measured. Esp not in the pre-1950 vaccine. 1950 being when concerted drives to eradicate smallpox in a particular area really began. Efficacy was certainly high but it also was not 100%. The reason those concerted drives to eradicate smallpox began in 1950 was because the vaccine did NOT create a lifetime immunity. Efficacy was high in the first five years but smallpox would then return to fully vaccinated areas and increasingly so after 10 years.
Further the reason the vaccine did reduce the transmission of the disease was not because of the vaccine (some purely hypothetical thing called 'sterilizing' immunity) but because of the virus itself. Smallpox did not transmit presymptomatically and it did not transmit in aerosol but in droplet/fomite form. When pustules formed, they also formed in the nose throat and mouth. Those developed somewhat slowly relative to other virii because smallpox multiplied not by invading any random cell in the nose/throat but by invading lymph nodes themselves. IOW - smallpox went straight for the immune system (white blood T and B cells) where it then after about two weeks invaded the bloodstream and then went symptomatic throughout the body. Time for the already-vaccinated to build up their antibody production and fight the virus and kill it off before the symptomatic stage.
Keep in mind that Jacobson v. Massachusetts was limited to a state government. I believe this doesn't grant a federal government the same claim.
As a followup to The Vaccination Will Not Be Televised, Gil Scott Abattoir presents "Fauci's on the Tube" (Original linked here)
A doctor vaxxed my sister Nell.
(with Fauci on the tube)
Her face and arms began to swell.
(and Fauci's on the tube)
My sister's only 10 years old
(but Fauci's on the tube)
She's at more risk from common cold
(while Fauci's on the tube)
Another mandate came last night.
('cause Fauci's on the tube)
No mask, no booster, no civil rights.
(but Fauci's on the tube)
I wonder why he's buggin' me?
('cause Fauci's on the tube?)
A new lie comes in every week.
(with Fauci on the tube)
Cash is gone, it's all been spent
Pay raise doesn't make a dent
Inflation's at 15 percent
And Brandon is the President
A doctor vaxxed my sister Nell.
(with Fauci on the tube)
Her face an' arm began to swell.
(but Fauci's on the tube)
With the 14 days I gave last year
(for Fauci on the tube?)
How come there ain't no freedom here?
(Hm! Fauci's on the tube)
Y'know I jus' 'bout had my fill
(of Fauci on the tube)
I think I'll sen' these doctor bills,
Airmail special
(to Fauci on the tube)
Inspired.
love it! Gil Scott in the Hall of Fame as of recently although I have no idea what took them so fucking long to recognize him.
Sullum doesn't call out the most important part of the OSHA regs- under subsection FY, paragraph, TY:
"Employers shall crush our enemies, see them driven before us and hear the lamentation of their women. This is good."
I think I get it now. Since the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, people need to get vaccinated to protect the unvaccinated from the vaccinated. And that's why the unvaccinated should stay home. Not because they're dangerous, but because they're in danger.
Pretty much. But try getting any official to admit that that is really how it works.
exarctly.
You look at the logic behind this, and it looks worse the more you look at it.
And to think it was just this weekend you dismissed the very criticism you just offered with the strawman "if it isnt 100% effective we shouldn't do it" against people making the exact same criticism you just made.
Don't worry, he'll also do that this weekend.
Something like that.
I don't know how long it will take this to get through the courts, but the court of public opinion is convening in November of 2022.
I put the chances of Biden resigning after the midterms at about 50%. They'd be higher if Kamala Harris' approval numbers weren't in the toilet.
I thought at the beginning that he'd be gone after 2 years and 1 day, but Kammy is so reviled that it would obliterate any chance they have in 2024.
They don't have much chance for 2024. The results from Virginia and New Jersey show wokism and climate alarmunism are losing campaigns, and the Dems have no moderates available for 2024; the few who might be waiting in the wings won't dare show their moderation until wokism is gone.
If they move back to the center before being slaughtered in 2022, Manchin could be in a good position.
Except with the superdelegates and the Dem primary voters in California, Seattle, Boston and DC who will decide the nomination....
If it comes down to Manchin or Sanders, he'll take it.
They can't correct 60 years of the wrong course in 12 months.
There's another Joe from some flyover state the Dems could have run for the job, but they've spent months demonizing him so not going to happen. Be prepared for the NYT and WAPO articles examining what went wrong in 2024; and my guess for the opinion they land on, America is racist.
This is exactly what I saw after the McAuliffe loss. The only plausible explanation was white supremacy.
Good. Let them keep pushing that crap. It’s really getting them results.
The progressives are trying to whitewash the reason for this defeat.
I am soooo looking forward to the 2022 elections.
* Midterms usually go against the President's party.
* The signs so far are for a landslide of tea party size.
* Once the campaign season starts, Congress, and especially the Dems trying to find the right mix of sandbags to undo their hard-earned brand of wokism, will be unable to get much "real" business done. They only had this one year, and they aren't doing so well. Fingers crossed.
* The Dems seems to be awfully dumb about this, doubling down on everything the public hates -- wokism, gender fluidity, climate freakout, renewables instead of reliables. Odds are high they won't learn a damn thing in time for 2024, and they have no moderates who could take over from Biden and Harris.
* The GOP may also be able to use 2022 to find an alternative to Trump, and to concentrate on everything which won Virginia and leave Trump out of it.
The only real downside of less Trump is less honesty. As much as I despise half his policies, he still was possibly the most honest politician that I can remember.
Trump was honest in everything but how he described people.
Those he was trying to overcome, he called by various names (and the good ones saw this and didn't take it personally, Cruz being one example).
Those he was trying to work with, he described in glowing terms that they often didn't deserve, understanding that ego-stroking smooths a rough path, making it easier to get somewhere (like when Jack Benny didn't care WHO got the biggest laugh, so long as it was on the Jack Benny SHOW).
* The 2020 Census moved several House of Representative seats from Blue to Red states.
They'd be higher if he hadn't picked Harris for VP.
Maybe he's sharper than we give him credit for.
broken clock twice a day.
You say that as if you think that Biden picked his running mate.
+1
See, I see it the other way. I think he's DEFINITELY going to put Harris in mid-term because her unpopularity stands zero chance of winning general election.
At least if she gets in by default they can declare their Historic Moment(tm) and she might be able to eke out an incumbency/inertia advantage.
He’s not going to resign. He has a huge ego just like every other President.
The 10% kickback from Hunter's art work sales is too delicious to give up early.
Something has to be pretty bad and a pretty obvious abuse of the law for Sullumn to even engage in mild criticism of a Democrat. It is not just "not hard to see how these challenges will succeed", it is impossible to see how they won't succeed provided they are given anything close to a reasonable hearing.
The emergency provisions of OSHA are designed for cases where the coal mine is going to collapse and the company refuses to shut it down. States don't have vaccine requirements and very few places have mask requirements. To believe OSHA's claim that this is a "grave danger" is to believe that hundreds of people can eat in a restaurant with no regard to masks or their vaccination status yet requiring the servers to be vaccinated is necessary to "prevent a grave danger". It is completely absurd.
It is also an unbelievable violation of people and business's rights. It would be nice if Sulumn would bother to notice that part. Imagine if an administration banned all businesses from treating transgender as their pretend gender and required them to treat them by their biological gender as an "urgent matter of worker safety". I am thinking reason would have more to say about such a rule than just a bland explanation about how it "might be vulnerable to legal challenge." You have to love the passive voice and weasel words there. Sulumn just can't bring himself to say that it is illegal and a gross violation of people's rights and freedoms. Nope, it might be vulnerable to some technicality if the evil deplorables win in court.
Some rights matter more to reason than others. Most rights do not matter enough to reason to warrant more than a perfunctory head nod that well maybe violating them is sorta bad sometimes.
For what it is worth, when it comes to all of the Pandemic Theater, Sullum's viewpoints have typically been skeptical.
Unfortunately, his skepticism has always been from a "does the science justify this?" or "is this legally allowed?" perspective.
Like you, I am waiting for some more articles making the case that the government ought not force people to stick needles in their arms. Not because the science doesn't justify it. Not because it is legally dubious. No, they shouldn't do it because it is morally wrong to force someone to undergo medical treatments to protect the public.
Sullumn is a leftist technocrat similar to Bailey. Neither one of them have a problem with rule by "expert" at the expense of human sovereignty. They just want to make sure the experts are right when they rule. Yet, they claim to be "libertarians".
The advantage to the legal/scientific approach is it's more likely to convince a non-libertarian to question the policy.
My suspicion is that most of the articles here are written to provide a libertarian entry point to normie moderates, not rile up the libertarian die-hards.
So they focus on pragmatic arguments instead of philosophical and moral ones. Get people to start questioning the efficacy of statism as a way to get them to start questioning the state's primacy in society/life.
It doesn't convince anyone. It just reinforces the assumption that this is okay as long as they get "the science" right, whatever that means.
I have no problem with giving people pragmatic reasons to be moral, but if you don't *start* with the axiomatic, moral case against government compulsion, you are basically getting into a dick- er, study-measuring contest.
In fact, one of the biggest problems today is that the general public has ceded too many moral questions to pragmatic arguments, based on The Science! (tm). For every study saying vaccines aren't as effective as people think, or in the ways they expect, there are studies saying the opposite. The same goes for Climate Change and masking. And this creates incentives to CORRUPT the science, and among others to label contradictory science as "misinformation".
Further, arguing that something won't be passed in the courts doesn't matter to people, because even if it is "technically illegal" that is just kicking the can down the road. Many people will just say, "then legislature should make it legal- and until then, anything else works for me!" This is the whole reason we have all these Executive Orders- people care about results more than rule of law.
So yes, I agree that Sullum is correct in pointing out pragmatic reasons to support libertarian views. But posting NO moral defenses is, frankly, a bad way to operate. At least Britshgi was willing to lay out the reasons a vaccination policy is wrong in the morning linx.
The bastardization of science is something I do not think "experts" are taking seriously enough.
When one's evidence of their stance is ignorable due to the sketchy means of obtaining it and a lack of willingness to openly share the raw numbers, all it does is further diminish the public's trust in much of anything.
wrong to force someone to undergo medical treatments to protect the public.
wrong to force someone to undergo medical treatments
with NO PROOF they actully revent transmission or contraction of the alledged dsease
Further OSHA are saying NOTHING about the PRoVEN life ong strong immunity gained when an indievidla HAS the disease nd recovers. THAT is medically unsound.
Not to mention the growing statistics that are raidhy approaching the tipping point estblishing that the injection poses more hazards including death to those who receive itthan those who simply manage to catch the covid.
THAT above should be solid basis for lawsuits.
I would reject that absolute moral claim.
Elsewhere in these comments, people compared COVID versus smallpox, which was the vaccination mandate in the 1905 Jacobson case which is now being cited as support for a very lenient standard of review for vaccine mandates. Smallpox is much, much more lethal than COVID, therefore Jacobson's standard is inapposite, goes their reasoning.
But the lethality rate isn't how we set legal standards of review. We set those based on what the voters put into written law - ultimately based on our morals.
So, consider if we had a contagious, mutated ebola outbreak in this country. Ebola outbreaks have had up to a 90% lethality rate.
We, an electoral majority, would be putting those who refuse the vaccine in cages rather than let them walk around near the public, if those were the circumstances.
We should make sure the legal standard for courts evaluating a vaccine mandate reflects our moral standard. And our moral standard needs to be in recognition of all of those possible fact patterns.
Lethality rate absolutely is what this order is predicated on.
An Emergency Temporary Standard was enacted to protect workers against a serious hazard to their life. OSHA's ruling there.
Now, where is the threat to life and how grave is it? Oops, ETS not valid.
Also, fuck off and die progslavershit.
"So, consider if we had a contagious, mutated ebola outbreak in this country. Ebola outbreaks have had up to a 90% lethality rate."
Such a rate also heavily limits the death figures as the disease burns itself out fairly quickly.
It, to me, falls back on those who feel scared of the disease should quarantine themselves instead of demanding everybody ELSE do so.
"It's so lethal, we don't need to worry about it" might be one of the dumber assumptions I've heard proposed in a while. We've been lucky with naturally occurring pandemics usually having lethality and contagiousness inversely related.
That's an absolute rule of neither contagion nor nature - and nature is not the only input to potential pandemics anymore.
The emergency provisions of OSHA are designed for cases where the coal mine is going to collapse and the company refuses to shut it down.
OK. So do covid and meat processing - esp from 2020 but the aftereffects are still there
Sure. The COVIDIOTS risked starving the country to death by trying to shut down the meat packing plants. I am not really sure what that has to do with anything. Meanwhile, a grand total of 269 meat packing workers have died of COVID nationwide. That is out of around 500,000 people who work in the industry.
A real "grave emergency" there sparky. Clearly, we need to repeal the Bill of Rights and create a police state. Go fuck yourself, you fascist twit.
IF IT SAVES JUST ONE LIFE
You do realize that industry is why workers everywhere are quitting shitty jobs with shitty employers. Why everyone is looking around at 'supply chain' problems and wondering why.
I don't really give a shit. But you apparently do - and are very confused as to who to blame. Someone's to blame. Gotta be.
Assclown
No financial incentives to not work at play here, JSlave? No months of mandatory lockdowns?
Fucking prog apologist. Go polish Sloppy Joe's grundle some more.
"You do realize that industry is why workers everywhere are quitting shitty jobs with shitty employers. Why everyone is looking around at 'supply chain' problems and wondering why."
You do realize you're a fucking ignoramus posting bullshit.
Shitbag.
Are you ever libertarian on anything? It has nothing to do with enhanced UI? How dumb are you?
"OK. So do covid and meat processing - esp from 2020 but the aftereffects are still there."
Stuff it up your ass with your PANIC flag, asshole.
The agency says the ETS, which covers "two-thirds of the nation's private-sector workforce," will "protect more than 84 million workers from the spread of the coronavirus on the job."
And that's simply not true. The vaccines don't protect anyone from the spread of the virus. Only from severe disease (probably). Which, to my mind, means there is absolutely no justification for pushing anyone to get vaccinated. Even if I didn't oppose mandatory vaccinations in any case.
If the person has natural immunity, a vaccine provides little or no additional protection. The rule doesn't account for that possibility. Regardless, this is not an urgent grave threat to life that justifies OSHA being allowed to avoid the normal regulatory process. That what this is about. They are trying to pass a enormously intrusive and broad rule without following any of the normal procedures that are required to be followed to enact a regulation.
Yeah, ignoring natural immunity is very disturbing too.
I haven't talked with DEG recently, but I think he's dealing with that exact issue right now.
He found a new company to work for that won't make him get vaccinated and has under 100 employees.
That's good and it stinks at the same time for the same reason.
He's been talking about changing jobs for a while, so I think he's pretty pleased with the whole situation.
I'm gonna have to give him a call then.
Just got off the horn with him. He's making lemonade. Pretty cool.
It's how we know 100% this isn't about a virus.
It's how we know 100% this isn't about a virus.
The next step is holding the cocksuckers criminally responsible for the lies they’ve spread, livelihoods they’ve destroyed, and their daily unprecedented abuses of power.
And it’s not going to be electing congress members and/or a president that “respects norms” or is “horrible within normal parameters” to make it happen, either.
Rope?
Of course it’s about the virus and public health. Never assume malice where good intentions and incompetence will do.
Mikey How you doing with all of that Russian trump collusion completely collapsing today to the point even WaPos fact checker Kessler admitted it was bad intel?
We shouldn't assume malice when we can blame it on the incompetence of less important people...
Then why are they failing at all the easy shit?
Milions of service workers went to work every day before the vaccine mandates, and to my knowledge, there was no mass death count among grocery store employees, meat packers, WalMart employees...
Ok, we got the Nina Totenberg legal analysis... what's the libertarian opinion on Vaccine mandates.
Oh and this:
The hassle and discomfort of wearing a face mask all day, although officially a safeguard aimed at protecting co-workers, likewise will encourage employees to be vaccinated.
Bullshit. Bullshit. I will fucking fistfight anyone who says that the incentive to get vaccinated is so they can "return to normal".
I am vaccinated, in a corporation that requires vaccination per the Biden administration diktat. I sit here, and have sat here for the last 7 months, fully vaccinated, social distanced and fucking MASKED PER MY EMPLOYER WHICH BASES ITS RULES OFF CDC GUIDELINES.
King County has a vaccine passport to navigate public life, and people who show the passport who enter the businesses are still required to be masked.
So shut the mother FUCK up with this "incentive to return to normal". Fuck off with it. It's over. It's a lie. The only thing left is for the last tiny Democratic holdouts to admit it was all a lie.
We have flu season every year. It kills about 50,000 people. Never has OSHA said that it was necessary to require employers to mandate flu shots and masks and the like. This whole thing is insane. And ultimately, I don't see where Sulumn has a problem with it. He just seem too upset by it. He seems to support it. He just thinks maybe it might be illegal. I don't understand how anyone could be as dishonest as Sulumn is.
What is wrong with all of you people? Did you somehow think the title of this article was Jacob Sollum's Personal Opinions About....?
Yeah, an article about a gross and completely unjustified violation of people's rights totally warrants a luke warm consideration that maybe the whole thing might not legal.
Germans might be on shaky legal ground in forced resettlement and internment of Jewish Poles
Sullumn in 1942
That is only a mild exaggeration of what is going on here.
You do know this is an opinion magazine?
They are all a bunch of right-wingers, not libertarians. One way they signal their membership in the right-winger club is to rant about the Reason writers.
So in Diane/Paul’s mind Jacob Sullum supports her?/his? employer’s nonsensical mask rules.
What did Sullum do to deserve this: he didn’t emote enough in his writing.
When he has few qualms bitching about virtually everything, the stuff he does not bitch about becomes more noticeable.
Yeah, we got to take masks off for about 2 months before they required us to wear them again, vaccinated or not
It's a farce, wearing masks didn't prevent almost every one in the store (including myself) getting it last year.
Where I live they have gotten rid of the mask mandate. Yet, businesses keep making their poor employees wear the masks when most of their customers are not. It is absolute lunacy.
Our family got vaccinated specifically to return to normal- and to an extent it has sort of helped. Our older kids don't have to quarantine even though they periodically get exposed to COVID- while their friends who aren't jabbed have to sit at home for 10 days. And generally when we go into stores, the rule is "if you are vaccinated, no mask required."
All that said, many of these rules are arbitrary, and they haven't gotten us close to "normal". So now that they are talking about FORCING my youngest to vaccinate, I'm inclined to tell them to fuck right off.
Word. The only way to return to normal is to fucking return to normal and stop it with all of this shit.
Quit holding back. Tell us what you really think.
Being vaccinated gives one a kind of moral high ground when dealing with anti-science retards.
Just don't wear it. Seeing more and more people not giving a fuck about the new diktats.
I have to, I'll get fired.
I could not wear my mask when I enter a business, but frankly I don't want the angry Karen confrontation in a town where Prius drivers wear their mask alone, driving down the highway or standing alone with their Bichon Frise in the middle of a 12 acre field, with no one within 175 yards of them.
And to be honest, if the business wanted me to wear a mask, they have the right to kick me out if I don't. I just don't want to deal with it.
I just don't need the fucking drama.
Is the job worth it? For me, no it's not.
And trust me, there is NO shortage of douchbags telling you to wear your mask because you're "endangering them".
If OSHA succeeds in getting a ruling that their mandate includes any threat to health and safety at all that arises during the course of your job rather than as a result of your job, look for them to follow the CDC's lead in working on gun control, healthy eating, and outlawing vaping next. Fatties shoving bacon double cheeseburgers down their necks are more in danger than people getting coughed on.
Pretty much.
I suspect I'm more in danger driving my truck back and forth to work than I am at my job - does OSHA now have the authority to set safety standards for automobiles?
No, but that is only because the NHSA would never give up it's turf. If not for that, you are damn right OSHA would be trying to regulate cars.
By the new standard, they could force everyone to ride the company bus and stop driving to work. Sure, the bus isn't 100% safe either, but driving a car presents a grave danger.
They will limit your commute, for safey and the planet. Right after they pass the milage tax.
look for them to follow the CDC's lead in working on gun control, healthy eating, and outlawing vaping next
Doubt it. Vaccinations are an easy mandate. Get jabbed, get a card, and you can easily prove you did what they told you to do. Not so much with what you own in your home or do in your private time.
And if they can get away with this, what's next? Flu vaccines? Masks every winter? What other medical treatments could they similarly justify requiring?
The really funny thing is that before covid, making employees wear masks without proper training, analysis and medical clearance would have gotten employers in trouble with OSHA.
I like to think they'd need a new boogeyman to justify new policies.
Well, I hope so.
And yeah, the irony on mask wearing is pretty rich.
Here.
sarcasmic
November.25.2020 at 8:56 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Not so much that as the Trumpistas are against anything that isn't 100% effective, and anyone who suggests anything that isn't perfect will be showered with hatred
That is you arguing against people stating the very fucking same you dishonest shit.
Don't expect sarc to understand the slippery slope he is not condemning here. And it is mighty slippery. Remember. Under Obama carbon was declared a pollution and health hazard. This ruling gives them parallel powers to the EPA to destroy freedoms. That is their goal.
Not because they didn't try. There was a period of time when governors were setting limits on how many people you could have in your house. The only thing that kept that from being a real thing is local PDs wanted nothing to do with it.
Same lefty bullshit spin that has been telling us for a year that the feds could never mandate the vaccine.
They will definitely mandate no guns in any workplace next and go after smoking and vaping after that. I can assure you of it because sarc just said he doubts it.
When they come for people's jobs, it is time to resist. If they initiate force, it is time to resist violently.
Fuck 'fuck Biden'. Impeach Biden now.
yeah, show your broccoli stamp or you can't get in to watch the movie....
Already Vaccinated? Here’s Why You Shouldn’t Stop Wearing Your Face Mask Yet
5 reasons to continue wearing a mask, even after you’re vaccinated
As more and more people become fully vaccinated, many are wondering when life will return to normal. But before you ceremoniously throw away your face masks, experts warn that we’ll need to continue wearing them a while longer, especially in public settings.
“Face masks and physical distancing will need to continue into the foreseeable future,” explains infectious disease specialist Kristin Englund, MD. “Unfortunately, getting vaccinated does not instantly mean we can go back to how life was before. Until we have some level of herd immunity, the vaccine is now just another layer of protection against COVID-19.”
For us to reach herd immunity, 50% to 80% of the population will need to be vaccinated. And since it will take time to ramp up production and distribution of the vaccines, Dr. Englund urges folks to manage their expectations about a quick return to normal.
Oh, and "herd immunity", that's another definition that's been understood for DECADES in epidemiological circles that just got anally raped by the politics of COVID.
Dr. Englund can go fuck himself. The only good news is that people everywhere outside of a few real, brain dead leftist cities, have pretty much just started ignoring this nonsense. Even in the blue enclave where I live I see fewer and fewer and people wearing masks. And the scenes of 80,000 or more people attending college football games without a single mask in site warm even the coldest heart. I think the percentage of society who give a single shit about what any of these idiots have to say about this is well below half and probably close to or below 20%.
What the fuck is wrong with people? Do they think it's still 6+ months ago when there was still some hope that the vaccines could create herd immunity? We fucking know that the vaccines aren't going to do that. They don't stop transmission and infection. It's fucking retarded. There is no good reason (besides personal concern) to worry about whether someone else is vaccinated.
It's power through propaganda. It's become 100% "do it because we told you to do it", none of it is based in science, you're being gaslit with quiet changes to the definitions of vaccine which have been stable for decades until they released a vaccination that was
99% 95% 92% 88% 79% 67% 63% 69% 48% 44%39% effective and still leaves the vaccinated both vulnerable and possible super-spreaders.Baloney. The definition of vaccine hasn’t changed. The new mRNA vaccines do the same thing vaccines have always done: stimulate your immune system to fight a microorganism.
Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.
----------------------------
Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.
Even the CDC has openly admitted that they changed the definition. Try again.
They changed what was printed on their website, but that was never the definition of a vaccine. If it was, then we have never invented a single vaccine, ever, because no vaccine is 100% effective in 100% of people, and many are even less effective than the Covid vaccines
You really ought to learn to check shit before you regurgitate it... And no, new mRNA vaccines work entirely differently.
Previous vaccines contained weakened or dead samples of the actual pathogen in question. New pokes send a modified RNA virus into you that infects your cells and causes them to shed the spike proteins found on the exterior of the original Coronavirus throughout your body.
It's also lacking even a year of genuine safety data and resistance is both weaker and less enduring than catching the 99.95% nonfatal ailment and getting over it.
They work the same way in that they stimulate an immune response, which is the whole point of a vaccine
Inasmuch as if you get hit by a bus or murdered by a psycho with a chainsaw you're still dead, sure.
Totally different ways of arriving there.
Exactly. Because vaccines are so leaky, and far from sterilizing< the effectively do not add to herd immunity. Zip. Zero. Nada. No benefit towards herd immunity. The only thing, right now that adds to herd immunity is natural immunity. What we need right now is a traditional vaccine, made from attenuated or deactivated viruses.
Compounding this, the Delta variant pushed out other, less contagious variants throughout the month of July in this country (20% to 80% during that month, and currently, in this country, 99%). Delta has an R0 (infectivity) roughly twice that of the variants that it pushed out (with probably a little lower lethality). Doubling R0 effectively raised the Herd Immunity Threshold (HIT) from 60% to 80% (since HIT is mathematically dependent upon R0).
But bottom line, again - our current vaccines do not count towards herd immunity, except maybe marginally, because they do not prevent people from getting the disease. At best they may slightly reduce the number of people who get infected. We have known this at least since the P Town superspreader event in early July, where many of those deep kissing strangers (and ultimately catching the virus) had been vaccinated. Now, with over half the country vaccinated, over half of new cases appear to have been vaccinated.
No herd immunity from the current vaccines.
I feel it a public service to point out that this post is a bunch of gobbledygook.
Getting infected does not give you extra special immunity. On the contrary. Vaccines are designed with a specific dose to cause immunity. Getting mildly sick with a random viral load is self-evidently less reliable. Not to mention all the people who die.
I don't think you refuted anything he said or made any case that it is gobbledygook.
If people want to reduce their chances of dying, then they can take the vaccine. Or even better (if they are able), eat better and get some exercise too. There is no reason to be personally concerned with who or how many people are getting vaccinated.
And there is indeed evidence that being infected gives more effective and longer lasting immunity than the vaccines. Not "extra-special immunity", but regular old decent immunity.
Getting infected also means you risk permanent disability or death. It wasn't the case that Dr. Fauci sat alone one day and decided to hype up a harmless virus for shits and giggles. It's actually a pandemic.
You can bark up another tree if you're looking for absolution for your poor moral choices.
Where did I deny any of that? You are arguing against the voices in your head and not anything I have said.
It’s Tony, what did you expect?
It wasn't the case that Dr. Fauci sat alone one day and decided to hype up a harmless virus for shits and giggles. It's actually a pandemic.
Yeah, you're right. He didn't hype up a harmless virus. He funded the creation of that virus that led to this pandemic.
Normal vaccines, typically built using attenuated or deactivated versions of the virus. Not novel gene therapies redefined a month or two ago as “vaccines”, and urgently only available under Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs). Just calling it a “vaccine” doesn’t agicly make it a silver bullet that prevents infection. As I noted, right now the vaccinated are turning up more frequently as COVID-19 positive, than the non vaccinated (but there are more vaccinated than no vaccinated in this country). I other words, the vaccinated are still extremely susceptible to catching the virus, despite being vaccinated. Maybe as susceptible as the non vaccinated.
On the flip side, getting a virus and surviving it is how antibodies have traditionally been developed. This is how mammals have became immune to viruses for at least the last several tens of millions of years. This is why it is called “natural immunity”. It’s what naturally happens when you get sick from a virus. It’s nothing new, and it works.
Tony only knows what he is told to believe by his good democrat masters. Seriously, that’s how it works for him.
"Getting infected does not give you extra special immunity."
Tony overturning decades of medical science here.
Also herd immunity is an equilibrium state where the rate of gaining immunity equals the rate of losing it. You cannot control an infectious disease any better than that. The definition even works for measles.
collateralglobal.org/article/mini-lecture-herd-immunity/
Funny that states without mask mandates aren't having significantly more cases than states that still have them.
And that states with mask mandates had the same seasonal spikes in cases as states without them.
The masks are highly ineffective by any reasonable standard. The mask mandates may have contributed to the case counts last year by conveying a false sense of security when social distancing alone would have been more effective.
Heard immunity is a natural process that has accured in humans for thousands of years. The "heard" is WHO stops the over 10,000+ daily germs and bacteria that humanity must indoor every day from spreading. There is not a single scientific study that says that the asymptomatic folks r now the enemy of the public. This "shot" is not a vaccine in any shape or form. U haven't a single study that has passed a per review to back up a single thing u posted. U r but another counted on pawn regurgitating nonsense. A simpleton so afraid. That u grasp at straws to suck on like a babies pacifier.
The Phucko Knows
OSHA's determination that COVID-19 in the workplace qualifies as a "grave danger" is subject to judicial review...
Hopefully the judge has some familiarity with statistics. COVID-19 is a grave danger to people who are too old or too unhealthy to be working. The danger is much lower for people of working age who are healthy enough to hold down a job.
These fuckers piss me off so much I can't think straight or form an argument more cognizant than Fuck Off.
apt.
99.95% survival rate is not a grave danger...
Ifr by age. Most of the working population has a very small risk.
https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/11/18/covid-infection-fatality-rates-sex-and-age-15163
And that is prior to a vaccine.
If you're not fat, almost no risk at all.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/most-covid-19-hospitalizations-due-four-conditions
>99% survivability. Grave Danger my 11" dick.
Isn’t it amazing how every guy posting on the internet has at least a ten inch dick? Probably why Tony won’t go away.
I will ask it again. If the unvaccinated pose a grave threat requiring emergency action, why are they not required to wear masks at work until December 5? Shouldn’t an “emergency” response to a “grave threat” take effect immediately?
I do not think there is federal authority to mandate a vaccine (or, a protective biologic therapy, the CDC's new definition for vaccine). That baseline question has to be answered. I believe the federal courts will find that the Federal government does not have the authority (just like the 'no rent' mandate).
This feels like 'theatrics' to distract from the absolutely shitty job POTUS Biden is doing.
It is totally theatrics. They have dragged their feet for several months on issuing a rule at all. This despite it being a "grave emergency". The reason they did that is that without a rule there was nothing for anyone to challenge in court. Meanwhile., Biden was bullying companies and woke execs were mandating the vaccine and using the nonexistent rule as the excuse. Without a rule to challenge in court, employees were without any redress against it. The idea is to use the rule as an excuse for corporations to require the vaccine so that it won't matter when it is struck down. It is exactly the sort of corporate fascism that reason can't get enough of for some reason.
Unfortunately, I've backed off that. Jacobsen v Massachusetts and Buck V Bell suggest otherwise.
My argument is that despite supreme court precedent, it's still immoral.
I am not sure I'd want to cite Buck because of the moral issues involved there. And Jacobsen? It never held the state has the right to forcibly vaccinate anyone (as in, held down on the table against your will while you get jabbed).
This is a pretty big overstep.
Theatrics for sure. They also know the rule won't stand, but are trying for as big of an impact before declared illegal.
Exactly. Then they will claim there was never a REAL mandate, and it was all totally voluntary!
Meanwhile,
Italy’s Institute of Health now counts only those who died from COVID-19 has having died from COVID-19, reducing COVID-19 deaths in the hard-hit country from over 130,000 to fewer than 4,000.
https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2021/11/04/italy-reduces-covid-19-deaths-by-a-whopping-97-n1529706
Wow. That's really something. I expected a big reduction in numbers when re-examining the data, but not quite that much (though I find it quite plausible).
The South Park episode where the cops shot the kid to death and called his death "COVID related" since without COVID they wouldn't have been a quarantine at the grade school and thus they wouldn't have had to shoot him is only a small exaggeration of what the public health community actually did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mr_pTptZmo
this.
I think Token Black actually survived that shooting. And it was still a covid death.
This is explosive enough that I'm going to need another source than PJ Media. Digging now.
Looks like it might be based on the observation that 96% of people who died had other serious comorbidities. Which is important, but something we've known since March 2020.
And it is something everyone with any sense has been saying but the media and the government has been ignoring. Those death numbers are not meaningful and never have been.
You're right. The more I dig into this, the less controversial it seems. I mean, if you're JFree, it's controversial as fuck, but... if you're normal people, it's telling us what we already know.
The thing I find interesting is that someone here bothered to do the regression analysis that we desperately need here.
You know that the virus doesn't whip out a gun and shoot people in the head? People all tend to die in the same way: their brain stops receiving enough oxygen to continue functioning.
You want the official COVID death count to include only fully healthy people because... you've attached political significance to the pandemic? Because you're a desperate sad moron who likes Donald Trump more than science?
Public health in its German phase:
Ze COVID is deadlee, it does not diskriminate! It vill kill you! You must get ze vaccination so you can protect yourselves undt ozahs! Qvit qualifying deaths by comorbiditee! Vear your mask at all times, ve do not care about your vaccination status! Inject your infants!
Colin Powell dies of COVID, vaccinated.
Suddenly Public health officials become very French.
I mean, one cannot say zat COVID was a major facterr! What is ze truth really, who can say what ackshyualleee killed Powell. It was a bouquet of health issues which ravaged his bodeee like a jealous mistress.
Suddenly everyone became Jean Paul Sartre when the narrative falls apart...
Perfectomundo!
LOL = Sartre reference. Nicely done.
Tony, the COVID body count is meaningless because it counts people who died not necessarily from, but with the disease. So if someone succumbs to cancer, but tests positive for the virus, it's counted as a COVID death. If someone is shot by the cops, and their corpse tests positive, it's counted as a COVID death. Someone dies in a skydiving accident, and the red spot tests positive for the virus, then it's counted as a COVID death.
I'm not making this up. It's not even a secret. When the CDC announced the daily numbers, the government spokesperson says "X people died with COVID yesterday." The reporter immediately says "You heard it. X people died from COVID yesterday."
I know you're not big on distinctions, but words really do matter. In this case "from" and "with" tell two completely different stories.
Same as people with HIV. It's not the virus that kills you, it's the lack of oxygen to the brain due to some catastrophic organ failure, ultimately.
COVID tends to kill lung cells and then people die of pneumonia or some such. Cancer patients and other unhealthy types fare worse, and if that's some kind of mystery to you, then I don't understand why you're offering opinions here.
Conservatives are excellent followers. Just for some reason I can't fathom, you refuse to follow science and experts and latch on to the nearest obvious greasy snake-oil peddler. It's bizarre.
You are positing a conspiracy theory, right? Why don't you explain the particulars of that instead of me going on about basic stuff?
I'm doing my best to not be a dick. I'd appreciate it if you did the same.
But it's the internet. I get more Reasonbucks from "negative engagement," don't you?
We can do something unheard of on Reason, and respectfully disagree.
I guarantee you heads will explode.
The two of you lying pieces of lefty shit deserve each other.
A greyed out comment from Sevo. I can only imagine the sound his head made when it popped.
To think he said he wasn't trying to be a dick and immediately goes on to advertise his mute list with an insult added.
sarcasmic
October.30.2021 at 2:35 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Watching him play Russian Roulette would be a lot more fun.
COVID tends to kill lung cells and then people die of pneumonia or some such. Cancer patients and other unhealthy types fare worse, and if that's some kind of mystery to you, then I don't understand why you're offering opinions here.
What you're talking about is I believe what they call "complications," meaning without this complication the person would have likely survived.
For the vast majority of people COVID is a really bad cold. It's only deadly to people with certain predispositions.
If I believed the numbers citing deaths "with" the virus were really people dying of complications, then I'd agree with you.
But I don't so I don't.
Perhaps the most instructive data are excess deaths. Are you trying to argue that COVID is a big nothingburger, or are you trying to argue that old, fat, and sick people ought to hurry up and die so you can go back to normal life?
I'm just not a genocider. I don't think it's good to be a genocider. But then you're the expert on morals.
Are you trying to argue that COVID is a big nothingburger, or are you trying to argue that old, fat, and sick people ought to hurry up and die so you can go back to normal life?
Google "false dichotomy" because that was a great example.
All I've every argued, with is what Reason has generally argued, is that government's overreacted and now they're doubling down.
My kingdom for an edit button!
It's the biggest mass death event in American history, so I don't even know what you mean by overreacted.
Life has been 100% normal where I live for many months now. Perhaps it really is oppressive where you guys are. All I know is that the anti-vaccine movement isn't helping shit.
It's the biggest mass death event in American history, so I don't even know what you mean by overreacted.
Only if you trust the numbers, and as I've said in other comments I have reason not to.
No you don't. You're not better informed than the CDC, and you have yet to even describe what kind of conspiracy you think they're engaged in.
Sarc, Tony is incapable of learning. He only believes what he is told to by his masters. He is incapable of ending thought outside The Narrative.
The policies to fight covid cause excess deaths too. And will continue to for years to come. Why are people so set on ignoring the other side of the equation? And why do people think that there is some magic number of deaths that mean it is OK to shut down society and impose indefinite restrictions on ordinary activities? I have yet to see any sensible argument laid out on how you get from A to B there.
Cancer rates increased. Early detection decreased. Suicides up. Drug OD up. Cardiovascular deaths up.
Shut downs are covid related though right tony?
God, you are retarded. When have you ever seen me say anything complimentary about Trump? And I guarantee that I know a fuck lot more about science than you do.
Old, sick people dying is not a major tragedy. I don't know what else to say. I don't like it, but it's no reason to shut down major parts of society.
Old, sick people are expendable? Did I get to vote on this, or are you just deciding that millions of people have to die so you don't have to alter your routine?
Old and sick people die anyway. So when they die it's not a huge call for worry. When it happens to young and healthy folks, that's when you've got a real problem.
That's an interesting moral premise. Again, do I get a vote on whether we as a society decide that hundreds of thousands of people are suddenly expendable?
Everyone dies eventually. I figure it's easy enough to extend your logic and say there should be no laws against anything.
Right. If I don't want government to do what you want it to do then I don't want government to do anything.
I'm not playing. Good night. It was almost nice before you got stupid.
Tons of old and sick people were dying before covid. Why weren't you freaking out then? You didn't give a fuck about what old people were dying from before this happened.
And even with the massive and hugely harmful response, we did a terrible job of preventing old people from dying.
Tony. What is the acceptable cost to save a single life? 1 million per life, 2 million? No cap?
3 million people die every year in this country.
Half of all medicate spending is spent in the last 6 months of someone's life.
So what cost?
You said expendable, he didn’t, you fuckwit. He’s saying that it is a fact that old people die. Because they are old and die easily.
The covid deatb rate for those over 70 is the same as the yearly death rate for over 70 the last decade.
Covid deaths mirror 'regular' deaths almost 100% -- the exception being that covid doesn't kill the very very young.
"Because you're a desperate sad moron who likes Donald Trump more than science?"
Biden has killed more people from COVID than Trump did.
Just sayin'.
And that is WITH us having some idea how to treat it AND a "vaccine"
Here's a translated article from what might be the original article from Il Tempo.
I can't do two links, but the Il Tempo article in original Italian is not hard to find.
The translation seems... clumsy like it came out of google translate. But the ISS report seems real. More digging.
Falls right in line with what we know.
NIH study of Covid morbidity showed it's bad to be fat, diabetic or hypertensive.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/most-covid-19-hospitalizations-due-four-conditions
For some reason this seems to surprise people.
Don't worry, viruses are fuckers. One will come along that kills healthy young people.
I'm sure you morons will be every bit as helpful as you are being now.
Gays are still more prone to HIV Tony. By your assertions government can ban gay sex? That's the ultimate outcome of your argument for government mandated people can't die.
He won’t answer you. He’s too stupid, and too much of a coward to have that conversation. It. Igor require him to engage in independent thinking.
I've asked that before. For AIDS, gay men were, far and away, the most risky group. Lesbians had little and heteros ALSO had very low risk.
He would have applauded Reagan if he banned homosexuality for public health I bet.
Shelter in place to prevent the spread of a deadly disease. And all gay men should be banned from the workplace.
And the Church, don't want to risk any cross-contamination.
So you have to wear a mask at all times u unless you are in an office with floor to ceiling walls and the door closed. Making working in a cubicle farm a greater hell than it already is.
Let's go Brandon.
And ventilation isn't a thing, of course.
Fuck Joe Biden
Time to lockout and tag out OSHA.
Fuck Joe Biden
They need to be terminally cleared from any further involvement with combating the “deadly pandemic”.
Is there anything more Orwellian sounding than "Emergency Temporary Standard"? Also, taking an over-under on this "temporary" standard still being enforced 50 years from now.
I wouldn't touch that bet. Here in Pennsylvania we're still paying a "temporary tax" to repair flood damage. The floods in question took place sometime in the 1930s.
Johnstown PA, right? I read about that.
The next step is all employees.
After that all customers.
They will never stop pushing it further.
I feel bad for those of you still living in the Covid era.
As someone else said, around here things are mostly normal, about 90 percent of the people do not wear masks in stores and restaurants and in their offices. Going into a doctor's office or visiting the school seems like a time capsule where everyone has a mask on.
We moved on to 2021. Sorry for those of you stuck in 2020.
You're making me jealous!
[buzz] Julie! Did you cut us down to 99 yet? Muevete!
also Emergency Temporary Standard is wrong three different ways these assholes aren't even trying anymore
I had a good chuckle after I learned that Tim Pool got gravely ill from COVID then consulted with Joe Rogan, MD, for his "kitchen sink" therapy, which means bashing his head against a kitchen sink instead of just taking the goddamn vaccine.
How many radio personalities have to die before you people start to wonder if maybe they don't have your best interests at top of mind (or their own)?
So, Joe Rogan and Tim Pool are dead now? Or what the fuck is your point? How do you know that the treatments didn't help?
Gravely ill. Gravely.
I'm only curious. Tim Pool would have spared himself two weeks of misery if he'd taken the vaccine. Vaccinated people don't get very sick if they get sick at all. That's why it's called a vaccine. Like the one for polio, or smallpox, or flu. Do you know what vaccines are?
I actually can't wrap my head around the stupidity of it all. I know that there are many Republican politicians and snake-oil Youtube grifters with an actual financial stake in the makers of monoclonal antibodies and ivermectin, but can it really all be simply greed? Nah I have trouble with the concept of people with no morals. I have trouble understanding why people fall for their crap.
I'm only curious. Tim Pool would have spared himself two weeks of misery if he'd taken the vaccine. Vaccinated people don't get very sick if they get sick at all.
That is flat out medical misinformation. They are "less likely" to suffer severe illness, not immune from severe illness.
Tony is pretty much a retarded pot stirrer. Tony FYI I've had multiple people in my place of work out multiple weeks after catching covid while "Fully" vaccinated. You can also check the boards when I mentioned my mother was also out multiple weeks after catching covid fully vaccinated. Please stop - you're worthless.
So is it your contention that the vaccine is a fraud? That there's a conspiracy of all the medical professionals and pharmaceutical companies and governments on earth to get you to take a useless vaccine?
What, pray tell, is their motive? I'm super interested in your theory.
Of course it could simply be the case that all those people would have gotten much sicker or died without the vaccine. But we'll save the advanced logic for another day.
The vaccines are fine, as far as they go. They do reduce the chances of severe illness, which is very good.
What is not good is people going around pretending that they will stop the spread of the virus or create the sort of herd immunity that can stop a virus. They will not do that and that has been apparent for months now.
So get vaccinated, by all means. But stop thinking it's any of your business if anyone else does.
So the death toll would be the same with or without the vaccine?
Are you aware you're not making sense or do I need to continue spelling it out?
They have probably reduced the death toll. So what? How does that justify forcing on people who don't want it? The only possible justification is that it will stop others from getting infected and significantly reduce transmission. That is not happening. These vaccines do not work that way.
This fixation on the number of deaths is a big part of the whole problem here. It sucks when people die. But it also sucks when the functioning of society is severely disrupted by government interventions that don't work or do more harm than good. If your entire analysis is that if something reduces the number of people dying from this one virus then it is good and must be universally enforced, then we have nothing to discuss.
Being dead is worse than not being able to go to Dick's Sporting Goods without a mask. Again with me spelling out stuff you learn in kindergarten.
You are demanding that nothing about the world change for you. You are demanding that everyone else alter their lives so that you don't have to. You are demanding that the entire planet accept a death toll it doesn't have to accept, all so you don't have to feel uncomfortable in any slight way.
Stop demanding things from me. Either we get to herd immunity with vaccines or we let the species decimate itself at regular intervals. Viruses cause major shifts in human history. They wipe out thirds of continents.
Sorry if you can't wrap your head around it but this won't be the last one.
Tony, I don't know if you were always this stupid. I used to think you weren't. But you are apparently either unwilling or unable to understand what people are saying to you.
If you think this is all just petulance about personal inconvenience, then what the fuck have you been doing hanging around here all these years? You really don't get that libertarians object to government authoritarianism applied to pretty much any problem?
Hey! Fuckstick! The delegated power to keep you from doing something stupid that might result in your death is not in the fucking Constitution. If it were, nobody would be allowed to go mountain climbing, which is riskier behavior to anyone under 60 than being unvaccinated.
"People die while hiking glaciers! Panic! Mandate!"
Nobody cares if you risk your own death. Do you understand how communicable diseases work, bruh?
Yes, but you clearly don't if you think the vaccine is preventing transmission.
Vaccinated people transmit the virus at the same rate as unvaccinated Tony.
Again Tony. Let us extend your argument. Way more gay people died from HIV in the 80s and 90s. Should the cdc have banned gay sex?
"So the death toll would be the same with or without the vaccine?"
More people died under Biden with a vaccine than under Trump without one.
Of course it could simply be the case that all those people would have gotten much sicker or died without the vaccine.
We will never know because you can't prove a counterfactual.
Here's what I see. This particular vaccine is relatively new technology, and it doesn't work the same as other vaccines. (being that we're human beings, new equals scary as a general rule) It apparently doesn't stop people from getting sick or transmitting the disease, like other vaccines, but supposedly it makes it less deadly to those who get sick.
So why force it? If the point is to protect people, and the vaccine allows people to not only get sick but to still spread it to others, then what's the point? Other than to keep your job.
Sarc agreed, I don't think anyone here is saying don't get the vaccine if you want to or that it does show some benefits to some groups, but something that's not stopping the spread but we treat it as such and are possibly creating greater spread through false sense of security - looking at you SanFran NY etc with the passports for entry, that that is the issue and we want to force people who are willing to go vaccine free to be vaccinated for nothing more than a false pat on the back that people like fauci and biden get to give them selves. What happens when everyone is vaccinated and covid doesn't go away - do they say sorry ooops!
What happens when everyone is vaccinated and covid doesn't go away - do they say sorry ooops!
We will find out in a couple years.
Vaccinated people have less virus in them because their immune systems are primed to eliminate the virus. Sick people are coughing shit loads of virus on other people. Obviously there is less virus spread (and death) in vaccinated populations. Why am I having to explain arithmetic to you? Why are you so stubborn? We're all non-experts at something. It's OK to just shut the fuck up and stop killing people in service of ignorance. Nobody's dick is going to shrink. Fuck.
So why shun the unvaccinated? If you're vaccinated, then it shouldn't matter if an unvaccinated person shows up to work, right? Why require it? Who is it protecting?
If there's anyone you should shun, it's willing disease vectors.
Sorry I expect adults to practice hygiene. Here I thought it wasn't the fucking Bronze Age.
If there's anyone you should shun, it's willing disease vectors.
Like people that engage in anal intercourse? I am shocked that you would suggest such a thing!
I'm so glad we have the AIDS pandemic to compare today's right-wing nuts to. Such fucking hypocrites, huh?
Bug chasing faggots.
Oh, I get it. You're saying that COVID doesn't kill directly it lets other things kill, and you're comparing it to HIV.
That's a new one. I'll have to think about it and talk to some people.
I mean, getting your leg caught in a tractor doesn't kill you directly. It's usually just not enough oxygen getting to the brain.
If you get your leg caught in a tractor, and die from blood loss, your death will be counted as COVID related if your corpse tests positive for the virus.
I'm so glad we have the AIDS pandemic to compare today's right-wing nuts to. Such fucking hypocrites, huh?
Bug chasing faggots.
That is so incoherent, I can't even tell who you are calling a hypocrite. You might be having a stroke.
One can only hope.
All the same religious freakjobs who told AIDS patients in the 80s to shut up and die in their ghettos are now refusing to get vaccinated because... reasons.
They're hypocrites and bug chasers and they should go to their own disease-ridden ghettos to die alone, just as they expected AIDS patients to. Explain why not.
Tony, we know that the vaccinated can also be disease vectors. And they are less likely to be tested. So how are vaccinated people any less willing disease vectors than anyone else?
We are all willing disease vectors anyway. That's part of life. You might be carrying something and you might catch something out in the world. Somehow we managed to live with that fact for all of human history, through much worse diseases than this.
If there's anyone you should shun, it's willing disease vectors.
*cough* HIV *cough*
"If there's anyone you should shun, it's willing disease vectors."
Again, let's go back to gay men and AIDS...
Vaccinated people have less virus in them because their immune systems are primed to eliminate the virus.
What a load of steaming bullshit. Even the CDC has admitted that infected vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals carry the same viral load. This isn't from the CDC, but read it and perhaps you'll get the point: https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people. Specifically: "[The study showed] no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who tested positive for the delta variant of SARS-CoV-2."
This is wrong. Most vaccines do not provide sterilizing immunity. They provide a (usually high) degree of protection from symptomatic infection and communicability. You're much less likely to get sick and transmit it, not 0. When such vaccines are part of a near-uniform schedule for a given population (like all those schoolkid vaccines - MMR), you have herd immunity. Not because everyone is immune, but because the risk of pairs of susceptible people coming into contact and transmitting the virus is sufficiently low such that transmission within the population soon goes to zero.
Really, the relatively unique feature of the COVID vaccines is that it's for a very transmissible virus and nonetheless provides a high degree of protection. Flu vaccines generally have a lower rate of protection.
Except vaccinated and unvaccinated carry comparable viral loads and are equally infectious...
Are you cherry picking a subset of vaccinated who in fact transmitted covid, and comparing them to the entire population of unvaccinated? That's dishonest.
And if that's not what you're doing, you're psychotic.
Follow the science, dipshit.
https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people
One study. Go find some more!
"That there's a conspiracy of all the medical professionals and pharmaceutical companies and governments on earth to get you to take a useless vaccine?
What, pray tell, is their motive? I'm super interested in your theory."
What would be the motive in pharmaceutical companies who are selling a vaccine to get as many people as possible to take it, especially since they are immune from any lawsuits?
Cannot imagine what that would be.
You're still retarded tony.
I swear he is getting more retarded.
That's exactly what I said, of course.
This Tony guy gets it. You all should quit being so selfish. Get vaccinated! Wear your mask! Do your part so I can go out and live a normal life.
I can live a normal life. It's all the sad unvaccinated tools who risk death by living a normal life. If they'd stop whining so much and behave like fucking adults, we all could.
every time a person leaves his house he risks death. sometimes when he stays home too.
More so during a global pandemic, I should think.
You referenced the AIDS epidemic above. Your buddy Fauci helped make sure the bathhouses were kept open then. How do you feelz about that act that flew in the face of public health?
How many gay men died that didn't have to?
There's a lot of continuity. Republicans like death, especially among the vulnerable. Why do Republicans like death so much? Are they all insane or what?
Answer his question tony. Don't be an obvious hypocrite
I didn't think it was a serious question considering its implication that gay men are sex-crazed automatons who would rather fuck strangers than live.
Back then you people refused to fund AIDS research because it was a disease caused by the moral failure of some men to be gay.
The moment an AIDS pill was developed, all the gays started taking it. So what's your excuse again?
You’re the one gleeful about murdering infants.
The big question is, how many trannies have been murdered by Dave chappelle?
Tony’s updates on this have been sparse to nonexistent.
"I can live a normal life. It's all the sad unvaccinated tools who risk death by living a normal life. If they'd stop whining so much and behave like fucking adults, we all could."
If the vaccine was effective, why would it matter?
It's like blaming me not carrying an umbrella for you getting rained on.
“You people refused to fund AIDS research….”
Yup. Apt analogy. Tony got wet and it’s your fault.
Tony so gets it!
Nah I have trouble with the concept of people with no morals.
Really? Because over the years I've come to the conclusion that your only moral code is "Might makes right" which really means no morals at all.
I believe in not hurting people for no good reason.
Some believe that their own selfish right to be paranoid freaks means they can directly contribute to a death toll in the millions.
But sure whatever.
Then riddle me this.
Why should the unvaccinated be treated as second-class people?
The only people they hurt are themselves and others who are not vaccinated.
Do the vaccinated need to be protected from those who are not? That's a silly question.
So why mandates? Who do they protect?
Because continuing to let a deadly virus spread around the world means that virus is free to mutate, possibly into a vaccine-resistant form.
We've been doing this for over a 100 years. Vaccine skepticism is a grift. Five million people (minimum) are dead. Why do you ask stupid questions when the point is you're advocating for mass death? I don't care about the opinions of people who advocate for mass death. Second-class citizen is too kind, in my opinion.
Because continuing to let a deadly virus spread around the world means that virus is free to mutate, possibly into a vaccine-resistant form.
Deadly to whom? Not to me. Not to my kid. Not to any of the womens I'm fucking. Maybe to my my parents, but only because they're old and have respiratory issues.
Five million people (minimum) are dead.
Dead with the virus. Not from. But with. As I said above the numbers are dubious at best.
https://reason.com/2021/11/04/the-details-of-oshas-vaccination-order-for-private-employees-suggest-several-ways-it-could-be-vulnerable-to-legal-challenges/?comments=true#comment-9192994
So it's a conspiracy. Who's in on it, and what's their motive?
I'm simply talking about words. Is it a conspiracy? If so, why? What would anyone have to gain?
I don't know. Stir up fear? People do stupid shit when they're afraid.
No kidding. Here's the thing about humans and fear though. Because we're apes who evolved in a totally different environment from the modern world, our amygdalae are more primed to cause a fear response when the object is a human agent or analogue.
We certainly evolved with viruses, but viruses being microscopic, we tend only to fear disease symptoms, so we are naturally prone to stay away and keep quarantined people who are covered in pustules and coughing and shitting everywhere. Modern medicine, of course, has improved on this method, but it does require engagement of the cortex if we want to actually do better than nature.
It's a sad truth of the human condition that we'll go to war over 9/11 but won't lift a finger to combat a disease that kills orders of magnitude more people. From a utilitarian perspective this is insane, but we're just stupid tribal apes, and the environment our brain thinks we're in is one in which other tribal apes were always an imminent threat. And forget things like global climate change.
We will have to become less stupid if we want to survive, whether we like it or not.
What I see in you is someone whose primal fear instinct has been put into overdrive over COVID and climate change. Carbon especially. No offense, but that's what I see.
I'm not aware of anything I'm freaking out about as a boogeyman. If so clue me in.
I'm just saying, if we proportioned our reactions to body count, we'd have totally ignored 9/11 and raised heaven and earth in response to COVID. But because a virus doesn't come with swarthy skin and funny clothes, we don't know what to make of it.
I never supported the reaction to 9/11 either.
Tony... do you know what evolutionary pressure is?
Sure. Is your argument that no mitigation efforts should have been taken anywhere in the world?
No, he's never felt such a thing.
Yes tony, you are a paranoid freak. I don’t know how you can get out of bed in the morning when Everything Is So Terrible And Unfair!(tm)
No, that's not why they are called vaccines. They are called vaccines because the original vaccination used a vaccinia virus which gave people immunity to smallpox. And prevented them from giving other people smallpox. And here's the thing: these covid vaccines don't do that. I wish they did. That would be great. But they don't. So please fuck off and stop pretending you know anything. You are just broadcasting your ignorance and substituting wishful thinking for actual science and observation of facts.
I am not discouraging anyone from getting vaccinated.
So the covid vaccine is a fraud? Citation?
I for one am glad to see that you cheerfully embrace the government’s redefining of what words mean. Despite the truth in what Zeb is saying, you probably felt much better when you lined up for your “vaccine” vs being compelled to receive an experimental mRNA therapy.
Speaking of which, have you received your “booster” yet?
You know what's also experimental? COVID. We're all living through one big fat experiment in living (and dying) with a new virus.
Preliminary results are that a portion of the population will be so fucking stupid they will literally stupid themselves to death. Don't you fucking love science?
And it is highly unethical and immoral to compel people to participate in medical experiments. Even if you think it's for their own good.
The very fact that it is a new experience is a big part of why it's a bad idea to subject everyone to the extreme policies and interventions that have been tried (with little or no evidence of any broad effectiveness for the NPIs).
"And it is highly unethical and immoral to compel people to participate in medical experiments. "
Take mother nature to court.
As for the vaccine, do you have any evidence to point to that would support considering the vaccine more risky than the virus?
Welcome to every day of chicken little.
"You know what's also experimental? COVID."
Still amazed that you are so unconcerned with what bureaucrat sent money to China to fund the research that MADE the fucking disease.
Narrator: vaccinated people have even died.
FYI, here's an unsympathetic article on Pool which sounds like he had a bad case of the flu.
A rare case of a right-wing radio personality who survived Covid.
Tony, you do realize that more than 99% of people survive covid. Dying of covid is the unusual case. Why do you keep talking about it as if it's a death sentence? It is somewhat more deadly than flu if you catch it.
That some old, fat fucks on the radio died from it doesn't mean that a fairly young and healthy person like Pool faced any significant risk. Your ignorance of what numbers and statistics actually mean is striking.
But you understand if some of your fellow citizens don't want to just accept a major increase in death rates due to a continually evolving deadly virus infecting the entire world without any mature attempt at a response to deal with it. It's just a difference of opinion about how valuable human lives are, that's all.
There was not a major increase in death rates. Even going by the largest major of excess deaths it was a mere increase of under 15% for the year. Less than 0.1% of the population. 3 million people die every year.
So your contention is that, contrary to what every politician on earth did (save members of the Republican party), the pandemic should simply have been ignored by policymakers?
Overflowing hospitals and stadiums turned into morgues--no biggie. You have real problems, like the income tax.
Tony, MORE people have died this year than last.
And that is with the vaccine and known treatments.
The vaccine, going with your logic, has not worked.
They got better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6pZuAJjBa4
The vaccine helps people who are sick? That's new.
They help people from getting sick, but you knew that.
I meant once someone is already sick.
In that case you're supposed to bash your head against a kitchen sink.
You should do that until you lose consciousness. Try that amd report back to us.
"I had a good chuckle after I learned that Tim Pool got gravely ill from COVID then consulted with Joe Rogan, MD, for his "kitchen sink" therapy, which means bashing his head against a kitchen sink instead of just taking the goddamn vaccine."
...both seemed to get over it pretty quickly and now have better immunity than the vaccine could have offered.
But continue applauding for more deaths on the Biden COVID death tally.
Why does tony love death so much?
Of course, the requirement for wearing masks is equally ridiculous. You read enough of the studies purportedly supporting mask wearing, and they mostly come down to testing out models based on false assumptions. One significant problem is that they assume droplet contagion. And typical medical disposable surgical masks can reduce droplet dispersal. Of course, that assumes that masks are routinely discarded and replaced, as often as you might see in a doctor’s office - maybe every 15 minutes or so. No one does that, of course, outside medical facilities. But many of the cloth masks (often made by underwear companies, which is why underwear were scarce in the stores) don’t even do that, and neck gaiters or neckerchiefs are essentially worthless for preventing the spread of droplets.
Except that the spread of COVID-19 turns out to be primarily through aerosols, and not droplets, and the holes in disposable surgical masks are well over an order of magnitude larger than the size of the aerosolized virons. Disposable surgical masks don’t even slow them up, given how much smaller the aerosolized particles are, in comparison to the size of the holes (even in a 3 layer mask). Of course, these masks were never designed to prevent the spread of viruses. And those holes are far smaller than what are in most cloth masks, and esp neck gaiters, etc.
In lab setting, a perfectly fitted KN95 blocks about 40% of aerosols in question. At best. For about 15 minutes.
Theatre.
So better than nothing.
You think someone dying a slow, agonizing death think 40% is equivalent to 0%?
Nope. Mostly not. The study was a perfectly fitted N95 mask being 40% effective for 15 minutes. Almost no one wears, or can even get ahold of N95 masks. The masks worn are not fitted at all, and are typically worn for hours, if not days.
On the flip side, the virus poses a de minimus risk for most in the workforce. For example, the military has lost roughly a dozen service members out of 1.5 million. That works out to about 1/100k, or .001%. They lose more every year to single training accidents.
The military is also required to be vaccinated. I don't like wearing a mask either. I want to stop wearing a mask and never wear one again. That's why I expect people to get their free vaccine and shut up about how hard their life is because of a basic hygiene measure.
Ask the military about the anthrax vaccine.
That is in no way what he said. But that’s how you responded because you don’t know what you’re talking about and have to resort to disingenuous strawman arguments, or move goalposts.
That was meant for Tony.
Okay so all vaccines are a hoax. Jonas Salk is not a hero of science and human welfare, he was a peddler of lies.
There's nothing I can do for people who insist that truth is what they find on some shitty blog! I don't know how to instill a rational worldview in people. When I figure it out, I'll start writing my Nobel speech.
I don't know how to instill a rational worldview in people.
Reading the backlog of your screed in response to this article and the comments, the last thing you are is anything but rational.
Just because you jump to laughable hysterics when you are unable to justify your position does not mean anybody is questioning vaccines.
Nobody here is even saying do not get one.
We're saying THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT BE FORCING ANYBODY TO DO IT.
Who gives a shit? The whole point is to end the pandemic. Then the "problem" of government requiring people not to kill each other in this specific manner will go away. You're being hysterical about a non-problem because psychopathic politicians have fed hysteria into your brain. Think for yourself for one goddamn moment, how about?
That's the problem, Tony. The government has not outlined the criteria by which the pandemic ends. Does it end with zero cases, zero deaths? No, it never ends.
Tony, we all think for ourselves. We’re not part of a hive mind, like you.
"So better than nothing."
People aren't using N95 masks. And not for less than 15 minutes.
So, it is precisely identical with doing absolutely nothing.
How about a CORRECT ruling of UN-CONSTITUTIONAL...
One local CEO told me that, if they are forced to release employees who aren't vaxxed, they will deal with the staff reduction by terminating all services to agencies and employees of the Federal government.
That'll show the federal government!
If enough contractors do that it certainly will. You should be seeing the effects of that where you live in San Francisco soon.
This has real possibility of restoring the USA.
An organized rebellion of UN-Constitutional Grants (i.e. STOLEN MONEY).
Sadly; I have little faith that there are enough principled people to over-ride their own Greed in order for it to succeed. I'm afraid rebelling the STOLEN MONEY might be the only hope; but will also yield a ton of blood-shed unless the State's nullify the Fed.
submit to weekly virus testing
This almost certainly is out in even a trivial trial. Unless they follow Ron Bailey's "Science!" they'll be froced to show how testing, not PPE and behavioral methodologies significantly prevents infections. Seems almost certain that the whole keeping records of everyone's status to the week topples with it. The idea that an agency that, by common practice, mandates things like work hours and exposure limits gegins dictating medical practice violates plenty of existing medical protections. Can they mandate weekly HIV testing and firing based on pending results?
What does Science say about requiring vax for employees at a company with ten locations with 10 employees each but not for employees at a company with one location and 99 employees?
Nobody died who wasn't going to die some day. Plus fat people tend to crowd my view of the hot people. My minor inconvenience is more important to me than your life is... to me.
NOW DO A BUNCH OF THINGS I DEMAND OF YOU LIKE USE THE RESTROOM THAT MATCHES YOUR GENITALS
And guess what? Most of those who have died from COVID-19 were going to die fairly soon anyway. if you catch it at 90, you had better make sure your will is in order. But if you catch it at 25, you can probably safely make cruise reservations, because if you don’t have comorbidities (including having been vaccinated), it is far more likely that you will get hit walking across the street, than from COVID-19.
Perhaps you should more clearly spell out your point.
Is it morally acceptable for me to shoot 90 year-olds in the head? They're prolly gonna die soon I mean.
No. And Bruce didn’t contract COVID then intentionally cough on those Biden aged citizens.
He can’t understand the distinction. I know it seems like he is deliberately obtuse, but the reality is he is this fucking stupid.
It also explains a lot about the democrat party.
What does intention matter to the person who's dead?
Negligent homicide is punished in this society too.
You aren’t good at analogies, just anal. So really, just stop.
You want to know a sure-fire way to keep from catching or spreading covid at work? Just work from home. I see no provisions anywhere in here for work environment. Those of us who work from home, all day, every single day (going on 7 years now) have to get jabbed, just because more than 100 of us answer to the same senior management? Come on, man!
Why is he discriminating against employees of small businesses? If this is about saving lives, shouldn’t his mandates cover everyone? If he doesn’t force small business employees to get jabbed he is condemning the, to covid death or worse letting th m wander around to kill other people’s grandma!
great job
I'm vaccinated, but I did so of my own free will. I hope this mandate is shot down by the courts.
Too late- I already uploaded the image of my vaccine card for my employer. My company is all white collar workers, mostly college educated technical people so I think >95% are already vaccinated.
I spent most of yesterday and today going through all 490 pages of the OSHA ETS (hic), and what kills me is this: the assertion that the ETS has been established in response to the "grave" and imminent danger of un-jabbed workers falling sick and dying of COVID. Which is utterly ridiculous, because 80 percent of the people who have died from the coof are over the age of 65, therefore RETIRED. Not to mention that nowhere in this behemoth of a document does OSHA cite any studies on just how many people have become infected in the workplace, much less how many have died as a result. Neither do they outline criteria by which this ETS is rescinded, i.e., when we're no longer in the "emergency." You know, the one that is so EMERGENCY! that the government took two full months to come up with this crap, which doesn't go into effect for yet another two months. But EMERGENCY!
Nice Blog,
Nice article
^this
Previous mRNA vaccine trials also had the problem of reactivating latent illness.
Israel is looking at a sudden resurgence of dormant herpes virus among the vaccinated. We have no such thorough medical studies here, but anecdotally I know several vaccinated that are having a lot of odd problems, particularly the boosted teacher friends who already caught it before...
Additionally, that CDC report was - just that - an internal report that was not submitted to a journal. An internal product.
Upthread tony says “conservatives are excellent followers.”
Lol. The projection. I can’t even…