Last Month's Drop in Texas Abortions Was Far Smaller Than Supporters of the State's Ban Claimed
The actual number of abortions that S.B. 8 prevented by the end of September may be closer to 500 than 3,000.

A study published today found that the number of abortions performed at Texas clinics fell by half in September, when the state's new restrictions on the procedure took effect, compared to the number performed in the same month last year. That drop, while striking, is less dramatic than the law's supporters hoped and its opponents feared. Furthermore, the calculation does not take into account abortions that Texas women obtained at clinics in other states or drug-induced abortions they performed at home.
S.B. 8, which took effect on September 1, prohibits abortions after embryonic cardiac activity can be detected, which typically happens around six weeks into a pregnancy, but limits enforcement to private civil actions. The law is the focus of two cases the Supreme Court will hear on Monday. The question for the Court at this stage is whether the ban's novel enforcement mechanism precludes constitutional challenges until lawsuits authorized by S.B. 8 are considered by state courts.
The plaintiffs in one of the lawsuits challenging S.B. 8 estimated that it would affect "at least 85%" of women seeking abortions. Texas Right to Life claimed the law had "saved at least 100 lives PER DAY," or 3,000 in September. Based on "preliminary estimates," Fox News reported that "the law could prevent roughly 132 procedures per day, or 4,009 per month." The new data indicate the actual number is much smaller than both estimates.
The University of Texas at Austin's Texas Policy Evaluation Project (TPEP) tallied abortions performed at 19 of the state's 24 clinics, accounting for 93 percent of facility-based abortions in Texas. It counted 2,164 abortions in September 2021, compared to 4,313 in September 2020. The difference amounts to about 72 fewer abortions per day, or 2,149 for the month. Assuming that the clinics not covered by the study saw a similar drop, the total decrease would be about 2,310, or 77 fewer abortions per day.
The researchers found that abortions in August 2021 were up 28 percent compared to August 2020, which seems to reflect women who rushed to obtain abortions before the law took effect. That reduces the net decrease to roughly 1,100, or about 38 a day. But women who did not obtain abortions in Texas had other options, which need to be taken into account in estimating the number of abortions that were actually prevented.
Based on "mystery client calls," the TPEP found that waiting times for appointments at abortion clinics in three of the four states bordering Texas increased substantially after S.B. 8 took effect, which reflects the surge in demand from Texas women seeking abortions that were newly prohibited in their state. In addition to those four states (Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, and Oklahoma), women have traveled as far as Colorado and Kansas to obtain abortions banned by S.B. 8.
Self-induced medical abortions offer another workaround. "In Texas, a service called Aid Access connects patients with European doctors who write prescriptions that are mailed from India," The New York Times notes. "Some women also cross the border to Mexico, where one of the pills that causes abortions is sold over the counter. These methods are not technically legal."
Overall, the Times says, "rough estimates based on previous research on abortion restrictions in Texas suggest that about half of the women who are unable to get abortions at clinics there end up getting one another way." Based on that estimate, the actual number of abortions prevented by the end of September may have been closer to 500 than 3,000 or 4,000.
One reason the drop in Texas abortions was smaller than expected, the Times suggests, is that "women who were worried about being unable to get an abortion because of the law might have sought care earlier than they otherwise would have." But if the law remains in effect, it is apt to have a bigger impact, and not just because the adjustment for the unusually large number of abortions performed in August will no longer apply.
The TPEP notes that private financial aid helped some women who otherwise might have waited until they had saved enough money to pay for the procedure, by which time they might have crossed the line drawn by S.B. 8. An abortion costs about $650 in Texas, and the state generally prohibits private insurers from covering the procedure. Fundraising prompted by the highly publicized enactment of S.B. 8 helped women overcome that obstacle. But "if financial donations decrease over time," the TPEP notes, "patients' out-of-pocket costs will increase."
The researchers also note that "many facilities maintained pre-SB8 staffing levels in the face of reduced patient volume," which "may have prevented even greater declines in services." But "given the decreased client volume, facilities may need to cut staff or reduce clinic hours," which "may lead to delays in appointment scheduling and more patients becoming ineligible for in-state abortion because, by the time they get to a facility, providers can detect embryonic cardiac activity."
It is also possible that out-of-state clinics will find it increasingly difficult to manage the overflow from Texas. "There is early evidence, in the form of long waiting times for appointments, that Texans seeking out-of-state abortion care are straining capacity at the small number of facilities in nearby states," the TPEP says. It adds that "services outside of Texas may become more difficult to access if restrictions in other states go into effect, such as Oklahoma's new restrictions on abortion providers and a required mandatory in-person, state-directed counseling visit before medication abortion."
Even if S.B. 8's impact continues to fall far short of the estimates offered by pro-life groups, they will consider any reduction in abortions a victory. From their perspective, each of those prevented abortions represents an innocent life spared.
From a pro-choice perspective, of course, each of those prevented abortions represents a woman who was forced to continue a pregnancy she wanted to end, despite the fact that the Supreme Court for half a century has said that is her constitutional right. The burdens imposed by the law also extend to women who manage to obtain abortions by resorting to expensive, disruptive, and time-consuming workarounds, which are especially difficult to manage for women who have little money to spare, have inflexible work schedules, need to arrange child care, or live far from out-of-state clinics.
Still, the experience with S.B. 8 shows that restrictive abortion laws cannot be judged simply by their intent, since they inspire adaptive behavior that limits their practical impact. Just as bans on drugs and guns do not eliminate drugs and guns, bans on abortion do not eliminate abortion. That is especially true when nearby jurisdictions do not impose the same restrictions or when technological developments offer do-it-yourself options that did not previously exist.
In these respects, S.B. 8 offers a preview of what will happen if the Supreme Court decides that the Constitution does not protect a woman's right to abortion after all. Pro-choice groups project that overturning Roe v. Wade would have no impact on abortion access in most of the country, although more than 20 states (including Texas) are expected to impose severe restrictions. Assuming that 22 states ban elective abortions, Middlebury College economist Caitlin Knowles Myers calculated this year, the average distance to an abortion clinic for women of childbearing age would increase from 35 to 279 miles. The upshot, she and her colleagues estimate, would be about 14 percent fewer abortions.
"A post-Roe United States isn't one in which abortion isn't legal at all," Myers told The New York Times. "It's one in which there's tremendous inequality in abortion access." As in Texas under S.B. 8, many women seeking abortions will find the new obstacles insurmountable, but most will find a way around them.
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is a bit macabre how you cheer dead babies.
Just despicable.
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Then that sort of undercuts the arguments of the ban's opponents also, doesn't it?
Apparently its not going to utterly stop abortion access in Texas like people were screaming abut.
I've noticed that Sullum has a tendency to accidentally argue against his own points.
You clearly didn't read the whole thing. Yes, it would largely stop abortions in Texas, especially since Texas is debating a new law that will make chemical abortion (Plan B pill) illegal too.
The article is about how that that did not happen.
Sullum wants to use that as justification that the law is ineffective and thus should be removed - fair enough.
But it's so saying that it's not imposing an undue burden on those seeking an abortion, rendering that line of opposition moot.
500 babies not fed into the meat grinder. Good.
If you have information about a single dead baby, you should call the appropriate law enforcement authorities.
If not, you should (like all obsolete, bigoted, authoritarian clingers) stop spouting your superstition-laced nonsense while competent adults are attempting to engage in reasoned debate.
So you mean it's not a big deal and you should just get over it?
It's not a civil right he cares much about. If you cannot get your civil right in this state, just go to another one.
If this law sticks around, wait for the Blue states to apply this crap to gun ownership.
unlike the right to murder your unborn child, the right to arms *is* in the constitution
Those states that have red flag laws.
What do you think they are?
Murdering others you find inconvenient is not a civil right.
It is for socialists.
Authoritarian, bigoted, disaffected, no-count right-wingers are among my favorite culture war casualties.
And then there's the irreverent shitstain here to prove me right.
I first heard the term "Abortion Lust" from Michael Knowles years ago, and I thought it was ridiculous.
But after watching these screeching lunatics go insane over any abortion limits at all, it really is accurate.
These people *really* get upset when there's any limit on their ability to kill babies.
Sort of in the same boat. I'm definitely not anti-abortion, but god damn the way some people treat abortion like a sacrament is creepy.
Abortion and Drugs are largely the issues I've changed on most over the years. With abortion, it was around the time of "Shout your Abortion". These people literally brag about killing their own children for their own convenience.
It's one thing if you saw abortion is a tough choice, a grey line, whatever. But not when you celebrate it.
I was 3 months premature and these people think it's ok to kill a baby up until the second it passes through the birth canal. There's no "science" behind that, just their barbaric desire to kill babies
In DC 37% of all pregnancies end with abortion. Rationalization is a likely possibility.
There used to be a line "safe, available, and rare". When that was the standard the pro-life people were just the religious fundies.
Now you have people screaming about how they should be able to abort post-birth and the anti abortion people are looking a whole lot more rational.
Remember, everything the proggies say is a lie. Everything.
It was never about "safe, legal, and rare". They never believed that. It just polled well.
Now they are so radical, so far to the left, they don't know when to lie and are just saying what they've always believed.
So - - - -
It saved one child?
Then every liberal in the USA is completely on board with it, even if a few minor "freedoms" have to be ignored, right?
Wait, what?
No. Babies are just clumps of cells until they refister to vote D.
I don't understand how anyone who supports banning most/all abortions can actually consider themselves libertarian.
Can someone try explaining that cognitive dissonance
.
You don't have the freedom to end another life. This isn't hard
You don't have the freedom to beat or starve your children either
Four month old fetuses are not children, and real libertarians respect the rights of adults to control their own bodies/
What about 6 month old fetuses? Because that's when I was born. I was 3 months premature.
The official position of you abortion lusters is abortion at any point until birth. There is no science to support that. None. It's all religious dogma to you people.
What about 6 month old fetuses? Because that's when I was born. I was 3 months premature.
I was born to a single mother in the year Roe was decided. If I had been aborted, rather than my mother being happy to drop out of school and change her life path for me, I would simply never have existed. That would be no different, as far as I am concerned, than if she had used effective birth control. Or than if I had failed to implant after fertilization (like as many as 50% of fertilized eggs), or than if she had a miscarriage, or had never met my father.
Killing a baby after it is born, or aborting a pregnancy after viability is not necessary in order to satisfy the right of a woman to be not be pregnant any longer if she doesn't want to be pregnant. I sure hope that none of us would argue that a woman lacks a right to refuse to become pregnant. I support her right to not remain pregnant for the same basic reasons since safe and effect means exist to end her pregnancy. And also because the consequences of that are not effectively any different than any of the alternate scenarios I outlined above that also result in there not being a baby born.
And by the way, neither I nor the vast majority of those that are pro-choice support elective abortion after viability. (Which is not protected by SCOTUS precedent anyway.) If you can find some pro-choicers out there that really believe that a woman should have the right to abort her pregnancy on her due date, when simply inducing labor is just as safe and effective at ending her pregnancy (if not more so), then go for it. That isn't the position of anyone I know or would agree with, nor is it ever considered a viable legal position in this debate, so it would be just a red herring you use to try and paint all of us on this side as being baby killers.
Hey Bill, so I hope you don't know anyone that had a miscarriage. If so, were you sad? Why? After all it was just a clump of cells after all.
Everyone knows it's a baby and you want to pretend it's not to satisfy your own depraved conscience. A baby is a baby regardless of whether you 'want it' or not
Hey Bill, so I hope you don't know anyone that had a miscarriage. If so, were you sad? Why? After all it was just a clump of cells after all.
I could be sad when someone that wanted a baby has a miscarriage and still be pro-choice. Are you sad when you realize that as many as half of all fertilized eggs never implant, even without there being any medical interventions to prevent it?
So it's a baby when you want it but a clump of cells when you don't? What kind of sophist horseshit is this?
That makes me wonder then, what defines a child?
Is a fetus a separate body or part of the mother's body?
That is currently legally defined as part of the right to have an abortion. No need to wonder. Just look it up.
But in short, if a fetus can be delivered and survive without heroic intervention, then it cannot be aborted except in rare situations.
You are completely incorrect in claiming that if a fetus can be delivered then abortion is illegal.
Since Roe and its companion decision, the law has essentially been that any mother can have an abortion at any time.
But you ignored Anteater's question. If a developing fetus is not a child, then what makes it a child, aside from 6 inches of birth canal?
that is so incorrect I don't know where to begin.
Democrats in multiple states have passed abortion to the point of birth for any reason. Dems in NY cheered this. They think it is a right to be able to partially deliver your baby, stab it in the head, suck the brains out with a vacuum, and throw it away.
I am not exaggerating, that is literally the procedure. And they cheer for it.
This isn't about a 3 week pregnancy. They think 6-9 months is still valid. If they admitted it wasn't, they'd have to admit all their other euphemisms are lies too
This is utter horseshit. Where do you people get your notions of what is real v what is simply an invention of your fevered 'brains'?
It is very easy to see which states restrict abortion at some point and which don't. Here's the map - Alaska, Colorado, New Mexico, New Jersey, Vermont, New Hampshire - don't restrict abortion. Two are R - and all are basically too small to be relevant in national DeRp politics. All other states limit abortion on demand to either roughly viability or first two trimesters.
Beyond that the only legal abortions are about a major health issue. There are only five abortion doctors in the US who perform abortions in third trimester outside the ER setting where life of mother is the big issue.
Those five doctors do not do third trimester abortions 'on demand' or whim. Precisely because an abortion that late is dangerous. Further - you are fucking evil and stupid beyond belief if you truly believe that a pregnant woman would prepare herself to be a mother and go through six+ months of a pregnancy - only to then decide one morning to kill it.
The overwhelming reason third trimester abortions are performed outside the ER setting is when the fetus has been diagnosed with a major deformity. Not Downs but one where the most likely diagnosis is that the fetus will die before birth or within a few hours/days after birth. Where the medical risks of delivery skyrocket - and where there is no interest by pro-lifers in 'adoption'. Indeed the fact that you are lying about those abortions is proof that you know that. you don't give a shit about the mother or child. Only politics.
"Those five doctors do not do third trimester abortions 'on demand' or whim. Precisely because an abortion that late is dangerous."
I've read interviews with three of them, and, yeah, they damned well do elective third trimester abortions. Maybe not on what you'd consider a "whim", they may require some sort of sob story, but elective, NOT medically necessary.
And I sincerely doubt it's only five doctors doing them. Rather, it's five doctors publicly admitting to doing them.
What I just described above is elective.
Even your description of this as a mere 'sob story' indicates you don't get it and are merely trying to impugn the motives of both doctor and mother.
There is a very easy alternative for a post-viability abortion. Just deliver it. On what planet do you really believe that a doctor would not rather deliver a healthy viable baby who could be adopted? Or a mother who has for six months prepared for birthing a baby? A third trimester abortion is by necessity a pretty horrific procedure. NO ONE other than a psychopath would 'prefer' that to birthing a reasonably healthy baby that someone will care for as they grow up.
What you and your ilk are doing is demonizing someone else solely for the purpose of politics. I used to be pro-life until I realized that the one group of people who should have no ability at all to interfere in that decision are precisely the 'pro-life' people who lie about the circumstances of that reality and view the mother and doctors as evil.
Four-month old fetuses are developing human beings.
Life is non-stop process of development and change. They are people. Don't kill them.
Each and every one of us was once a four-month old fetus.
Our pre-natal doctor never referred to our children as clumps of cells or fetuses. They were growing children for the first 9 months of their lives. Realize that you are using words and terms to make you feel better. I understand that you may have a different definition of when it is a viable life but those who demand access to abortion at 6-9 months ( short of medical necessity to save the mother) are way short of any moral standing. Just my opinion.
And fake libertarians ignore the known, foreseeable consequences of their chosen actions.
consider rights of all involved.
I'm not aware of abortion prohibitionist expressing any concern for the rights of women (to control their own bodies and lives).
>>for the rights of women
consider rights of all involved.
Since a zygote isn't a legal person, what rights does it have?
If it *is* a legal person, it's trespassing. I wonder if someone could use a "stand your ground" law against a trespassing person?
So, your argument is that abortion is legal so fetuses don't have rights, so they shouldn't have rights?
That is more than a bit circular, is it not?
(You seem to misunderstand what the law is as well as what it should be, so perhaps you should start on the simpler question.)
Consider the rights of all involved.
Should an 8 month old fetus be able to be killed?
It's an easy question Shawn. If your answer is no, then why? where is your line?
If you look at someone 8 months pregnant and look and an ultrasound of an 8 month old baby, and think its ok to kill it for your convenience, then you are a ghoul that history will look at worse than the slaveowners the proggies are busy tearing down statues of
"I'm not aware of abortion prohibitionist expressing any concern for the rights of women (to control their own bodies and lives)."
I know of none who oppose abortion for rape.
Otherwise, you're killing babies.
The woman could always say no to having unprotected sex.
The argument is that the child/fetus/whatever is a human being in its own right and that abortion is literally murdering that human being, while on the other hand banning abortion doesn't infringe on a woman's rights because she can (presumably, in most cases) choose not to have unprotected sex and get pregnant in the first place.
And if the condom breaks or the man lies about wearing the condom? Or her other birth control methods she reasonably thinks are working fail? Or she's raped? Or the pregnancy is abnormal and risking the mother's life?
The "arguments" tend to be around punishing loose women for choosing to have sex. Conservatives don't give one whit about the children they'd force into this world or the effect that expense has on the mother or any of her existing children. Largely, these arguments are in bath faith and hard to take seriously.
Straw man alert. The arguments aren't at all about punishing women for having sex.
I know of no one who seeks to outlaw sex.
The arguments are entirely about preventing people from killing developing children.
"I know of no one who seeks to outlaw sex."
Affirmative consent laws kinda do a solid job of that.
These are the same, tired, ridiculous arguments. You really have nothing better than that Shawn?
Killing your own child for your convenience. That's what it is. Admit that you personally are willing to have your own child killed for your convenience.
Not for health reasons, not for rape, etc. You don't give a damn about those rare cases, because if I said fine, put those aside, you'd still have the same objections.
The vast majority of abortions are because it is used as a form of birth control. I have had people in real life tell me they had or will get one because they don't want the kid to 'ruin their life'.
So yes, you abortion-lusters don't want to take any responsibility for your actions, and will kill your child to avoid it.
I have a good friend who is a strict Christian/ anti-abortion and he was telling me about how he was fine with many of the medial options that could be done in the first week to end the pregnancy. I am no expert but there are options that are available. Theoretically, this should make actual abortions very rare.
If the condom breaks, or the woman lies about being on the pill, or she fishes the condom out of the trash and inseminates herself with it, as a guy you're on the hook for 18 years of child support. So, why is it only women who are guaranteed the choice of having no consequences?
You might start out with fact that almost two thirds of libertarians are male and work from there. The access to guns and beer probably rank well above reproductive rights for most libertarians. Besides if you read most of the comments and I suspect most are from men, then you know it is really the woman's fault for letting herself get pregnant.
Try again. I'd tell you to stop lying but that's really all you have.
Women already have reproductive rights. Killing their baby happens after that.
Male abortion-lusters just want to be able to force their girlfriends to kill their baby instead of taking responsibility for their own action
And yet more women than men oppose abortion -- try again, prick
Men want abortion because they want to knock up their girlfriends or Tindr flings and not have any consequences.
Someone I know pretty much said they don't want a kid to ruin their life, so if they knocked up their fling they'd get an abortion.
So yeah, if it means I can't play as many video games and go to as many concerts I guess the little guy or girl has got to die
To understand abortion, you have to have the best ANALOGY! (The most-optimized analogy will rapidly clarify matters).
Abortion is like this:
You’re drunk off of your bleeding ass, driving down the road and shit, minding your own business and shit. Maybe you shouldn’t have dropped that acid, either, but the cops haven’t caught you, and, innocent till proven guilty, right? So you keep on driving… Your drunken ass is bleeding and shit, by the way, ‘cause you’ve got some wicked hemorrhoids, and shit!
Then some space aliens swoop in on your car, and abduct you, and shit. They start anally probing you. For some strange reason, the little green men have a conscience attack, they start worrying about fucking up your health, and shit, what with your giant bleeding hemorrhoids. So they cease and desist, yank their probes out of your ass, and probe your nose instead, and shit. They don’t even bother to clean the bloody shit off of the probes, and shit!
But then a mucus vampire circles around you and swoops in like a vulture!
See, a mucus vampire, well, they’ve got some sort of magical nose for this kind of thing, and somehow he catches on to what’s going down, and he wants to suck your mucus, and shit. So he shows up, to get in on the action.
But when the mucus vampire sees all your blood and shit mixed up with your mucus and shit, he gets all disgusted and shit. The blood, he can handle… Some of his best friends are blood vampires. He’s a tolerant and broad-minded vampire, and shit, you know. But REAL shit, in his mucus??! Now THAT is TOO MUCH shit, and shit!
So he says, “Dudes, getting blood and shit into your mucus and shit, that’s like getting chocolate into your peanut butter and jelly and shit! That’s like getting your stupid and your evil all mixed up into your philosophy! This is some seriously fucked up bloody-snot shit! I’m outta here!” And the mucus vampire is SOOO sickened, he barfs all over you! Then he wraps his cloak around him like Batman folding up his bat-wings around himself, turns into a bat-shit crazy bat, and shit, and flies away, all disgusted.
The little green men, being kinda autistic, take everything literally. They are also HORNY little green men, already excited by anally and nasally probing you, and, upon hearing the mucus vampire talking about “…seriously fucked up bloody-snot shit…”, get all carried away, and shoot their little-green-men jism all over your bloody-snot shit!
Now if we sit back and think about this, your shit bacteria get all fucked up, ‘cause they were expecting a decent burial in your toilet, and they don’t get one. Your nasal bacteria and viruses were expecting to LIVE, or, at least, a traditional, honorable drying-out session in your booger rag, and they don’t get that, either. Your little green men sperm cells get REALLY screwed over, ‘cause they were expecting at least SOME long odds (but a real fighting chance) at some little green woman’s egg cell. Your red blood cells don’t matter, ‘cause they have no cell nucleus, let alone a nervous system, or any kind of independent life. Your white blood cells? Well, yes, they have a nucleus, and their own genes. But they’re WHITE, dammit! You CRAZY cracker muthafuckers!!! WHITE means you’re a RACIST, and WHO CARES about the rights of racist honkeys?!?!
Ergo, we must conclude, this whole thing is an abortion all around! Since abortions are, by definition, abortions, they need to be outlawed!
So, that's how your mom had you?
And yet nearly 70% of American's polled support abortion in at least some limited form, largely in alignment with existing national abortion laws where it is legal through the first trimester.
Yet, at least that % of Americans want restrictions on abortion.
You badly misunderstand abortion law. For the past 48 years, abortion has essentially been legal at any stage of pregnancy with no real qualification.
American abortion law is much further to the left than it is anywhere in the developed world.
Wrong.
Many deep red states have imposed so many restrictions that there's only one abortion service provider in the state and women must travel hundreds of miles.
they can move to a blue state if they want to kill their kid that badly
The market is the market.
Sick, twisted fuck, JSlave.
Don't kill children. Don't kill people. How hard is that?
I know it's meaningless to say to a lefty shit, buy it ain't right to kill anything for your convenience.
Also, can you care to explain why its okay to literally murder another human being for your own convenience?
My roommate has a girlfriend who never wants to have kids and it she gets pregnant would just immediately get an abortion, because they don't want the kid to 'ruin their life'.
What a disgusting piece of crap you are if you actually do that. To not 'ruin' your life, you are going to kill another.
Not even give the kid up for adoption or anything, but just nope, I want to party and go to concerts and play video games all day, so guess the baby has got to go in the dumpster.
If abortion is murder (as prohibitionists have insisted for decades), why have abortion prohibitionists (when strategizing, drafting and enacting abortion bans/restrictions) refused to criminalize, prosecute, incarcerate or impose the death penalty on women who have an abortion?
Not having been involved in any of that, I would speculate it has to do with capacity. If your doctor is telling you it's fine and doing the procedure on you, it should be the doctor who is charged with murder.
If abortion isn't murder, why are people charged for it twice if they kill a pregnant woman?
I believe in a more puritanical society, they would have had they performed their own abortion. But because the abortion was ostensibly performed by a third party, they're the killers. The women are merely accessories.
Traditionally, abortionists have been punished and mothers have not been for the same reason that strangers are punished much ore severely for killing babies than mothers are.
Courts and the law understand that mothers are under great stress -- physical and otherwise -- when pregnant, but abortionists kill after a detached, calculated decision.
If you thought about it, you could have figured this out.
And if you thought about it, maybe your argument that you don’t think it necessary to punish a pregnant woman for aborting her pregnancy because of the stress is why you shouldn’t be inserting yourself into her decision in the first place.
"If abortion is murder (as prohibitionists have insisted for decades), why have abortion prohibitionists (when strategizing, drafting and enacting abortion bans/restrictions) refused to criminalize, prosecute, incarcerate or impose the death penalty on women who have an abortion?"
The doctor is, technically, the one killing the child.
However, mothers can get in trouble if they, say, abuse drugs during pregnancy, causing problems with the child.
Uh, technically, it is only the hitman killing someone, so you’d be okay with only the hitman getting a penalty for murder and nothing for the person that hired him?
Well, it comes down to whether you consider the unborn to be a person or not, doesn't it?
I mean, if you do then you're against murder. If you don't then it's NBG.
abortion itself - pro or anti - is not a libertarian question.
Because the commenters here are not libertarian. They are Trumpist, fascist, religious authoritarians who think forcing their unscientific and purely subjective opinion that life (with all rights) begins at conception. It's not good enough for them to live by their own morals. They need to force their will on their neighbors.
If you send in the police because you are a personally offended jesus freak, you might be a theocratic authoritarian.
You can call me all the names you like - I still don't support murdering helpless children for convenience.
Intolerance is a Progressive thing.
Laws restricting abortion do nothing to address the need for abortions. So there there is nothing to suggest that the actual number of abortions will go down.
Where abortions actually go down is when education young people about contraceptives and make contraceptive access easier. But that hardly seems the issue here, we really need to punish poor women who have sex. Remember every legislator in Texas who voted for SB8 can still get an abortion for his daughter or mistress, because he is not poor.
One of the great lies is that abortion is because people don't have access to birth control or condoms. As if I don't know people personally who use it *as* a form of birth control.
But no, that's just some right wing lie. Just don't pay attention to the people online who brag about that, or the people I know personally who see abortion as birth control.
How about people stop being ghouls and take responsibility for the actions? Killing your kid for your own convenience is one of the worst things you can do as a human being
Laws restricting armed robbery do nothing to address the need for armed robbery. So there there is nothing to suggest that outlawing armed robbery will make the actual number of armed robberies go down.
Poor women can afford contraception.
And if they can't how do they afford the abortion.
And if the answer is "the government pays for it" why can't the government pay for contraception?
The need for abortion is about 7%. The other 93% is killing babies for convenience.
Per reported causes by abortion providers.
So yes, shut them down and shut your legs or take responsibility. Murdering children is not a good response.
I'm uhh... I'm more inclined to think this undercuts the law's opponents more than it does the law's supporters.
Now I admit there's a lot to unpack here.
If you believe that the right to abortion is unlimited, up to and including the full-term magical trip down the birth canal and into the waiting hands of the Dr who can snap the tiny little neck as long as the umbilical cord hasn't been cut, then one might say that ANY restriction no matter how small is a violation of a
woman'suterus-having-person's right to choose.But if you believe that there are SOME reasonable limits to abortion then that suggests this limit might not be as unrealistic as the law's opponents claimed.
From a pro-choice perspective, of course, each of those prevented abortions represents a woman who was forced to continue a pregnancy she wanted to end, despite the fact that the Supreme Court for half a century has said that is her constitutional right.
Which, according to the Roe V. Wade decision was not unlimited.
These people don't even know what Roe said. As if killing a 7 month old fetus is your constitutional right
Also, those euphemisms. It's gotta be the only way they can sleep at night.
I admit, even I didn't know how complex the roe v wade decision was until relatively recently.
If we apply this same logic to the 2nd Amendment, since we do understand that right to also be limited, then a law that allows people to own guns in almost no circumstances still allows it for some, so bingo! Still have a 2nd amendment right.
Nearly 70% of Americans support abortion within the first trimester.
The 2nd Amendment is limited. Types of weapons and their carriage may be restricted. The extent to which this is true is debatable.
The right to abortion doesn't exist at all if one were to interpret the Constitution from anything but an activist Leftist viewpoint.
So you agree with Judge Bork that the 9th Amendment is like an “ink blot” and that he didn’t know what it meant. (Perhaps he meant that he didn’t know what he was supposed to do with it (That is how he answered a question about it during his SCOTUS confirmation hearing).
It means exactly what it says. That you are making a completely invalid argument when you “deny or disparage” a claimed right just because it isn’t listed in the Constitution.
You gotta be a true lefty to equate owning arms to killing your kids.
What about people that kill their kids with guns? Or other people’s kids? Or are negligent in keeping their guns secure from kids that kill them or others accidentally? (I think a guy is being charged in the recent case of a young woman killed by her toddler while on a Zoom call because her boyfriend didn’t keep the gun secure enough.)
"If we apply this same logic to the 2nd Amendment, since we do understand that right to also be limited, then a law that allows people to own guns in almost no circumstances still allows it for some, so bingo! Still have a 2nd amendment right."
Numerous guns are banned from ownership.
Red flag laws can remove your firearms because somebody thinks you might be dangerous.
The licensing and red tape one must jump thru to get a gun is rather more strenuous than any other right out there.
Such a blood-thirsty bitch you are, Jacob!
Libertarians ideology should oppose legal killing of innocents.
Every time you brush your teeth, BILLIONS of innocent bacteria are sent to gruesome, horrible deaths! ... I just thought you'd like to know that!
Community relocation to a high rise in the loo, but watch out for climate change and rising waters!
Present-day religous opposition to abortion before quickening is actually a recent construct, mostly dating to the 19th century. In the middle ages, one of the miracles of St Brigit, the other patron saint of Ireland was terminating a pregnancy. https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/saints-once-did-abortions-it-was-a-lesser-sin-than-oral-sex-1.3466881 Similarly, "The most detailed account is told of Ciarán of Saigir, after he rescued a nun named Bruinnech who had been abducted by a local king. “When the man of God returned to the monastery with the girl, she confessed that she was pregnant. Then the man of God, led by the zeal of justice, not wishing the serpent’s seed to quicken, pressed down on her womb with the sign of the cross and forced her womb to be emptied.”
Jerry Falwell led the anti integration voting bloc (aka the ignoramus racists) to the anti choice issue after losing the integration fight. It's an artificial construct to keep religious people, who tend to be less educated and less intelligent, as energized as they were to prevent black kids from going to school with their kids to vote.
https://www.psypost.org/2019/11/meta-analysis-of-83-studies-produces-very-strong-evidence-for-a-negative-relationship-between-intelligence-and-religiosity-54897
“When the man of God returned to the monastery with the girl, she confessed that she was pregnant. Then the man of God, led by the zeal of justice, not wishing the serpent’s seed to quicken, pressed down on her womb with the sign of the cross and forced her womb to be emptied.”
So it was legal in a Buck V Bell kind of way.
“In Texas, a service called Aid Access connects patients with European doctors who write prescriptions that are mailed from India,"
How is that possible? Pharmacies do fill out of state prescriptions but you still need a license where you practice. If the doc did not have one they would not fill the prescription.
Apparently India doesn't require that.
Oh I misunderstood. The pills come from India.
Which sounds like an unsafe consequence of the law.
I dont know why the authors here keep talking about abortion. It is not a libertarian issue. You just can’t answer it using libertarian thought.
Sure you can. Babies are people. We don't kill people not attacking us. We accept responsibility for our choices as the price for freedom.
Simple.
Libertarianism can't answer the question of whether or not something is a person.
We all were babies at one point. Most of us grow up and make more babies.
But at some point in this cycle, we are suddenly not people and it's OK to take life and deprive them of rights for your convenience? No.
We were all babies at some point in the past, yes. We were even all zygotes (fertilized eggs) at one point. (Though for any of us that have an identical twin, there is also a separate person that was also once that same zygote.) But not all zygotes become babies. Estimates have a lot of uncertainty, but the best estimates put around half of all fertilized eggs failing to implant in the uterus after reaching the blastocyst stage several days after fertilization.
That doesn’t even address miscarriage.
Yes you can. Regardless of whether you believe abortion is "murder" (it is not), or whether a fetus has any right to reside inside a woman and feed itself off her at her expense, causing her pain, potentially endangering her life, against her will (of course it doesn´t), you have to ask yourself - do you wish for a government so big and strong it is able to peep up every single woman´s private parts and control what is going on inside? If yes, you are not a libertarian. If no, antiabortion laws are meaningless.
(S,R,S)-AHPC-PEG4-Alkyne
https://ptc.bocsci.com/product/s-r-s-ahpc-peg4-alkyne-285261.html
(S,R,S)-AHPC-PEG4-Alkyne is a crosslinker−E3 ligase ligand conjugate consisting of a von Hippel-Lindau (VHL)-recruiting ligand and a PEGylated crosslinker with terminal alkyne for click chemistry with an azide on the target ligand.
Well, it comes down to whether you consider the unborn to be a person or not, doesn't it?
I mean, if you do then you're against murder. If you don't then it's NBG.
abortion itself - pro or anti - is not a libertarian question.
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