Progressives Want To Use a Giant Budget Gimmick To Hide the Cost of the Democrats' Spending Bill
When everything's a priority, nothing is.

Imagine, for a moment, that you are a Democratic legislator of a progressive bent in Congress. Over the course of the summer, you have been forced into an unwelcome (to your progressive sensibilities) realization: The $3.5 trillion partisan spending bill you and your fellow travelers have been trying to get through Congress is not going to be $3.5 trillion.
The reason is not Republicans, or the filibuster, or any other politically convenient excuse. No, the reason is because at least two Democrats, Sen. Joe Manchin (West Virginia) and Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (Arizona), won't go for it at that size. Even President Joe Biden, who stuffed his entire domestic policy agenda into a two-bill spending spree—it's the Dagwood sandwich of legislation—has now admitted that if and when the bill passes, the topline number will be less.
Exactly how much less is hard to say since even the lawmakers who are supposed to vote for this bill don't know precisely what's in or out of the bill at any given moment. Some Democrats have talked about a pared-back version somewhere in the $2 trillion range, though it's far from clear that Manchin and Sinema, both of whose votes are needed in order for the bill to pass, would endorse a bill of that size.
So again: You're a progressive. You initially wanted a $6 trillion bill, and at one point said that even that was "probably too little." But now even a $3.5 trillion package seems out of reach. Faced with the reality of a smaller bill, what do you do?
One option would be to pare back your ambitions further, funding some programs while eliminating others from the legislation. This would, of course, require making some tradeoffs.
Alternatively, you could use budget gimmicks to bring down the on-paper cost of the legislation without eliminating programs, and insist that, actually—AcKShuALLY—everything is a priority.
Take a wild guess which one progressives in Congress want to do.
The main gimmick that is being talked about right now is time shifting. This takes advantage of the way the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) produces cost estimates: by looking at the 10-year cost of the legislation. That 10-year period is known as a "budget window." So if legislation calls for a program to start five years into the 10-year budget window, the CBO score will only reflect five years of spending. Similarly, if a program is scheduled, on paper, to only last for five years, then the CBO will only score that many years of spending—even if the authors of the bill make quite clear, in some other forum, that they intend for the program to be reauthorized and continued for the entire 10 years. The CBO, for good reason, scores legislative text, not legislator remarks or intentions, so if there's a cutoff date built into the text of the legislation, then that's what the CBO estimates.
There's precedent for this approach (not that that justifies it): The primary spending provisions of the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare, didn't kick in for four years, so the price tag only reflected about six years of spending on the major programs. The Republican tax bill passed in 2017 put a sunset date on all the individual tax rate reductions in order to achieve a more favorable score, even though Republicans were quite clear that they intended those provisions to be continued in perpetuity. Yes, Republicans understood this would mean that Democrats might be in control of Congress when those provisions came up for reauthorization. But they felt they could count on Democrats not to raise taxes on broad swaths of the country.
That's more or less what progressives in Congress want to do in order to reduce the on-paper, official price tag of the spending bill. As The Fiscal Times recently reported, "Progressives are pushing to keep a broader array of programs in the legislation while reducing costs by limiting the duration of some parts of the plan."
To some extent, this approach is already built into the package, as the expanded child tax credit, one of the spending plan's signature initiatives, is technically scheduled to end after several years—even though Democrats have been clear they want to see it made permanent.
Among the policies that might get this treatment is a proposed Medicaid expansion that may eventually take the form of an entirely new federal health program.
Meanwhile, at least one person with prior campaign ties to the president has proposed taking this approach with the entire spending bill, cutting its price tag roughly in half by simply limiting the duration of the programs, even while campaigning on extending them forever.
This could in theory give Republicans the power to end those programs when they were scheduled, on paper, to end. But the idea is that, as with Obamacare, which the GOP campaigned against but failed to repeal in 2017, Republicans would not actually be able to muster the votes to stop those programs once they were up and running. The programs, in this vision, would be temporary on paper only. For Democrats who support this approach, the goal is to make their plans effectively permanent even while hiding their true cost.
It's an approach to governing that is simultaneously shameless and timid, in that it is premised both on a kind of deception and an implicit acknowledgment of that deception. But more than that, it is a refusal to acknowledge the necessity of tradeoffs, political or economic. And that, in some sense, is what legislating is—a matter of sifting through options and establishing what's important given the resources and political constraints. Democrats wouldn't get all of what they want, they would still get plenty: $2 trillion is a lot of money. A $2 trillion bill, or anything close, would still represent one of the largest, most expensive pieces of economic policy legislation in history. But for progressives like Sen. Bernie Sanders (I–Vt.), even $2 trillion is not enough. To paraphrase The Incredibles, when everything's a priority, nothing is.
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A vast social welfare state, upon which a majority of the citizenry is highly if not totally dependent.
What could possibly go wrong with that?
A vast ?social? armed burglary state, upon which a majority of the 'Criminal' citizenry is highly if not totally dependent on GUNS that steal from those 'other' people.
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regurgitation of propaganda phrase which translates to total welfare state for the wealthiest .001% but nothing for working Americans.
propaganda for demonize the working poor
The numbers tell the real story.
We live in a oligarchy
Propaganda keeps us ignorant
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Nice deflection. Now refute his point?
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Pablum.
Did you get from Mao's Little Red Book or a back issue of Pravda?
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‘Democrats to spend Trillions we don’t have using this one weird trick’.
No shit. People knew about this weeks ago. This is their standard practice.
That is such a great picture of Bernie. Priceless. "What do you mean I can't spent 10 trillion!!!???"
His face looks half paralyzed.
Wait, what? BIDEN WON???
Bernie is so old, he wears a farmers almanac for a wrist watch.
Bernie is so old he remembers trying to get universal healthcare added when the Magna Carta was penned.
And now I pay $4.00 for gas...and will see a 60% increase in heating cost this winter.....Confratulations?
Well of course! Now everyone will use less gas and heating oil and help fix climate change!!!
Mmmm. Dagwood sammich. Paging ENB.
She's busy munching on an afterbirth.
Like all progressives and many Democrats who are Beyond Meat, they are equally and openly Beyond Money. In the (warm) fuzzy socialist mind of a child, there is no paying for things, no cost of production, no financial reward for providing what others want to trade for. There is only needing and deserving, and abstract moral-political criteria for allocating the stuff that appears by magic, i.e. government fiat.
An especially simple child.
Who was aborted?
“The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.”
― Thomas Sowell
Money is the mechanism by which we keep score and allocate resources.
Printing money is just one of these methods. It allocates resources to "the needy" while recalibrating the score to the detriment of those whose wages are inelastic.
What we're seeing in the work force is the demonstration of market power by some of these wage earners.
If you think the printed money is going to the needy, you're insane. The money goes to the connected, and the connected do with it what they always do -- drive up the price of the stock market and land.
They are like the Eloi of the far future, but not as good-looking.
But just as gay.
Blah blah blah faithful regurgitation of meaningless propaganda trigger words
of course massive gifts to military contractors
If the US cut it’s military in ½ it would still be larger than the next ten on the list.
We never hear When it comes to gifts to the wealthiest .001%.
The pentagon has lost much more money than the cost of bills to actually help working Americans. Never a word of from “conservatives” about these spending bills.
Not a word
Logic, give it a try
Never a word of from “conservatives” about these spending bills.
You must be new here. Libertarians are against ever-expanding defense spending just as much as against this steaming pile. This one just happens to be on the menu today.
Do keep up.
The downside to the Progressives approach is that you end up with too many programs for the public to understand. As a result you get attention mostly focused on cost. Far better to target a few programs you can push to the public as successes. A moderate approach with more likely success.
They don't want a "few" programs; they want to transform the country into an even more and comprehensive expansive welfare state. Compelled by mendacities like the world is gong to end in X years of we don't "fix" the climate.
Walter Mitty much?
They want the US to morph into a Scandinavian style heavy safety net government. Which is fine if that's what the majority of Americans vote for (which has yet to occur).
Their problem is that to make it work you have to have Scandinavian level taxation. The progressives don't have the stones to propose that because they know that, say, $50k earners being in the 50% marginal bracket is a non-starter. Which kills their entire concept.
So we get games like this and "the cost is $0!" and "we're only going to tax the rich so ignore that we want to collect info on all accounts with $600 of activity". They're pushing this shit knowing that the math doesn't work.
If being in a 50% bracket meant free healthcare and education along with a safety net, then it might be palatable. The problem is that our government is run by egotistical asses. I see other countries learn from their mistakes and change course. That will never happen here. Bad laws simply aren't repealed. They might be amended, but never are they stricken from the books. Failed government programs are never put to rest. Instead they are rewarded with more money. We have a government that only grows while it cranks a one-way ratchet on our freedom.
If people in our government had an ounce of humility instead of a ton of hubris, then I might have some faith that things will work out.
But they don't, and things wont.
"They’re pushing this shit knowing that the math doesn’t work."
"We've looked at the math and it's good." Elizabeth Warren
What else do you need to know? Rubes get told, not answered.
Correct me if I'm wrong: but I seem to remember reading or hearing on a program about how if we made every European state with a large welfare system (Britain, the Scandinavian countries, France, so on) into states (like Texas, Indiana, California, Florida, so on) - they'd all replace the poorest states at the bottom of the economic scale.
Like smallpox blankets?
How much should be cut until cost isn’t the focus?
All of them.
I think you're looking at it through the wrong lens. Bernie Sanders' approach is how much do we need to add until the numbers make the cost incomprehensible.
It's already incomprehensible. Such that a trillion here and a trillion there doesn't seem to mean all that much. In for a billion, in for a trillion.
So a trillion here, and a trillion there, and pretty soon we're talking about real money?
That's inflation for you. I seem to recall that quote referring to just a billion.
Or just plain old running out of other peoples money. We’re now down to 40percent of the population pay Fed income taxes due to the cash kickback for kids/votes.
Name the highest progressive taxation state in the country, along with the highest COLA poverty rate in the country. Hint; the extraordinarily wealthy crypt keeper speaker represents progressives from this state and both answers represent the same state.
I’m calling M4e’s bluff.
As long as you don't expect a response that isn't rife with amorphous moral philosophy and bothsiderisms. Or isn't squarely in the Team Blue's corner while dissembling about being open minded.
Or a response which is just plain bullshit.
See- Above.
...And exactly which 'programs' are even allowed under the people's law (i.e. The U.S. Constitution)???? People who don't respect the people's law over their government will ultimately be entirely dictated by their government.
Here's the abridged Constitution.
"Congress has the power lay taxes, to promote the general welfare, and regulate commerce."
There you go. They can tax whatever they want, spend on whatever they want, and regulate whatever they want. The only limitations on federal power is the Bill of Rights, and that is largely ignored.
Did you get that CHOPPED UP cherry-picked text from your criminal Nazi-Rag??
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"
"general Welfare of............................................................ ???????? (WHAT U-NAZI-F!)....
General Welfare of the People??? General Welfare of the States??? General Welfare of WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah; That's right - The United States Government WHICH IS CONSTRAINED BY the enumerated powers...
So sick of Nazi-Dumbsh*ts picking, cutting, pasting words together to pretend the Constitution defeats itself.
Lighten up Francis. I'm just telling you that that's how Congress reads the document. Don't shoot the messenger. Jeez.
................ Any excuse to steal is criminals bottom line.
Well, democrats generally want to promote welfare……….
Actually 'theft'; as history has proven repeatably that redistribution doesn't yield welfare. Gov-Guns =/= wealth.
Just consolidate several of those programs under a single label. There are no actual changes except in PR and framing.
You assume the gov't programs actually do any good. They don't
2 things always happen when govt gets involved: Service goes down and cost go up
^THIS; +100000000
Weezen wuz meen to Twump! Day wanded dis! Waaaah!
Yes, you are a TDS-addled piece of lefty shit. Fuck off and die.
You obsessively attacked the one guy who had the balls, and made some attempt, to curtail spending. Which he ultimately couldn’t because of your precious democrats and their RINO toadies.
Do you fianally understand that he wasn’t the problem? That it’s the fault of democrats and RINOs? They’re the one constant in this.
Trump whined when he realized Congress didn't end omnibus bills (he still didn't read them). After he tried to get them to spend more money (than we have) on what he wanted, to no avail. For years.
That doesn't count as trying to curtail spending. If, in a fit of pique, he had vetoed the budget bill(s) then Congress likely would have overriden his veto, but failing that the media would have predictably blamed it all on Republicans, and the Congressional election results for Republicans would have been even more dismal than they already were in the Trump years. And then the Democrats would have deficit spent trillions, as they aim to do now, with the majorities Trump handed them.
But, go ahead and continue with your fact-free cult narrative, don't let reality get in the way.
Any refutations?
So now inane babbling is deserving of a retort?
Who voted for the crazy man in the picture?
It was him or the sleepy hair-sniffer.
What about that guy with the spray tan?
I tough John Boehner retired.
And running a cannabis business. Now he is both fake baked AND real baked!
I’m sure he had a good cry over it.
Neocons would love to get a Santorum-Boehner.
Such a vibrant fighter for the workers, that Bernie! Just look at that pic, busy busy busy!
Next time you are in Vermont, you can personally thank the voters there for keeping Sanders employed for decades.
I assumed VT would look like most other states, the hinterlands being pretty much "red" while the cities and suburbs are "blue;" but a look at the 2018 results shows that not just Burlington and Montpelier going solidly for Sanders, but almost the entire State by a wide margin. Them Yankees seem to like what he's selling; and this being a guy who once said while honeymooning in the USSR, that "bread lines are good because that means people are getting food."
There's a reason why they call themselves "the People's Republic of Vermont". Usually that's conservatives going hyperbolic on a moderate state, but in this case it's just the truth.
the hinterlands being pretty much “red” while the cities and suburbs are “blue;”
That describes the entire country.
I clicked Show Username. PG. Fuck you buddy. If you're making comments thinking I'm going to read them you're wasting your time. You're on permamute. Any replies to my posts are just you virtue signaling to your fellow insult trolls. Carry on.
That was meant to be up a bit, but oh well. Anyone who cares is on mute anyway.
you are such a little bitch
It’s a shame that so many people in Vermont are Marxist traitors.
Marxist, maybe. Traitors? No.
They apparently vote for him because they think he is likable and genuine. And he no doubt brings home some bacon.
Well, if they don't keep electing him, he might move back there.
Pathetic! Watching these armed crooks battle over OUR earned wealth. If WE didn't give you authority to steal it just sit-down and shut the F-UP!!! These politicians who think they're Gov-Gods and can do whatever they want.
Either change the USA by getting the proper authority of the people (Ratify the Constitution) or consider yourselves in contempt of the people's law over you - criminalistic politicians.
Title Correction ---
Progressives want every working American to provide $50,000 worth of *free* labor hours to their self-centered Goddess Building empire. Otherwise correctly termed - the Nazi (National Socialist) -Regime.
Full name:
National Socialist German Workers' Party
Nationalist = evil when Trump was president, glorious now
Socialist = "not us!" (well, actually, mostly)
Workers = Well, we used to support them, but not so much now
Party = No masks for us when we party, but you can't even work without mask AND jab.
They’re not even socialist. They’re straight up marxists.
"The CBO will only score that many years of spending—even if the authors of the bill make quite clear, in some other forum, that they intend for the program to be reauthorized and continued for the entire 10 years."
Once you expand an entitlement or create a new one, it's practically impossible to generate the support to stop it again, and once they give free dental care, free vision care, and make community college free, they'll almost certainly never be able to cut off the funding for those those programs again.
The ACA is one example of that principle in practice. My primary complaint about the ACA was the socialist Medicaid expansion. When Trump was elected, and the Republicans had control of Congress, they couldn't generate enough votes to kill the Medicaid expansion. We couldn't even get Rand Paul to vote for a $772 billion cut to Medicaid in the form of ACA reform--ostensibly because it was less than a full repeal of ACA but really because of what cutting Medicaid would do to Kentucky amid the opioid crisis.
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52849
I think there is a lot of reluctance on the part of certain libertarians, maybe even some who write here, to accept responsibility for the results of the 2020 elections. The fact is that the real control on whether Congress creates whole new socialist entitlement programs, or expands the ones we already have, is about denying control of the government to progressives.
Any libertarian capitalist who still imagines that reelecting Donald Trump was about immigration or trade, at this point, is being willfully stupid. Any libertarian capitalist who still thinks that the important consideration in maintaining Republican control of the Senate had something to do with Trump's refusal to concede is a buffoon.
The way to stop the expansion of socialism in this country was to reelect Trump and/or to maintain Republican control of the Senate, and t the extent that any libertarian contributed to Trump's defeat or the defeat of the Republicans in Georgia, either through their journalist or their failure to vote for Republicans and encourage others to do likewise, is ultimately responsible for the expansion of socialist entitlement programs and the expansion of socialism under Biden's Green New Deal.
This outcome was not only foreseeable but also foreseen, and we are ultimately responsible for accepting any outcome we choose not to avoid.
Shorter Ken: If you didn't vote for the stupid buffoon then you're a stupid buffoon.
Only if you care about a less political power going to the government. If you're all in for a quicker descent to a fascist state, then you're good.
If you’re all in for a quicker descent to a fascist state, then you’re good.
So you're saying that if everyone votes Republican we're still going to descend into a fascist state, just not as fast?
Why choose the speedy route?
If so, then I agree. And that's why I don't vote.
"Shorter Ken: If you didn’t vote for the stupid buffoon then you’re a stupid buffoon."
Shorter sarc: "I am a stupid buffoon."
Thanks; we already knew it. Fuck off and die.
"Any libertarian capitalist who still imagines that reelecting Donald Trump was about immigration or trade, at this point, is being willfully stupid."
----Ken Shultz
Just for the record, is there any way in which it can be said that Biden is superior to Trump on immigration or trade?
"Any libertarian capitalist who still thinks that the important consideration in maintaining Republican control of the Senate had something to do with Trump’s refusal to concede is a buffoon."
After watching Biden launch sic the FBI on parents for opposing their schoolboards, the White House admitting to censoring social media, and the Biden administration launch the most socialist spending bill in 50 years, which creates whole new entitlements among other atrocities, is there a libertarian capitalist case to make that Biden winning was anything but a disaster for libertarian capitalism?
Trump left office! If they still think Trump contesting the election results amounted to a coup--after Trump left office--then they're either buffoons, delusional, or both. Meanwhile, none of the anti-libertarian, anti-capitalist shit we've seen Biden do would have happened if Trump had been reelected. Trump losing being a good thing for libertarian capitalism is an indefensible position, and Biden winning has been a complete disaster for libertarian capitalism so far.
Even the one thing he did (leave Afghanistan) was done in such a fucked up way, he's actually making libertarian principles look bad by association. Can't tell you how many times I've had to explain to people that abandoning Americans to the Taliban isn't an integral and necessary part of the libertarian plan to not invade foreign countries. That wasn't a plan at all. That was just Biden's incompetence. Trump would have had us out by May!
Ken Shultz 2024
So then Trump is responsible for this expansion, since he helped get the Republicans defeated in Georgia. I mean, QED.
To whatever extent you contributed to this outcome, you're responsible for that, and, yeah, Trump is responsible for his contributions to this outcome, as well. Trump's contributions, however, do not excuse the outcome you chose not to avoid, and the socialist outcomes of failing to elect Republicans in the Georgia runoffs were what they were regardless of whether Trump contributed to them.
Brain-Damaged Biden is pursuing a shrewd strategy. Just set the precedent, and it will go on forever. Reagan once noted that a government program was the closest thing to eternal life we have. He was not wrong in this observation.
It only works if McConnell can slam the door on spending.
Yeah, it doesn't matter how they score it. Once it's passed, it's almost certainly permanent, and the way to stop it from passing was to deny the progressives control of Congress (and/or the White House).
Yeah Ken, if one thinks Trump is a conservative and hasn't done irreparable damage to that movement while making the GOP over into the resentment party instead. You can't keep the populist label forever without doing, you know, populist things. Trump became the cheer leader for the last $2k federal hand out if you recall and though he was too lazy to actually do anything about it, promised "better healthcare" than Obama. Yeah, he wanted to kill the ACA, but that was because "Obama", not any principal.
I am a liberal and I favor the ACA and extending Medicaid so we don't have 13% of the country - almost all of those working - who can't afford health care. That's scandalous in my opinion, but get real about Trump and his ability to lead anyone anywhere other than behind his ample butt.
so we don’t have 13% of the country – almost all of those working – who can’t afford health care.
Can't afford health care or can't afford insurance? They aren't the same thing. By the way, there's this thing called "uncompensated care" for poor people. Look it up.
sarcasmic, if you can't afford insurance, you probably can't afford health care for anything serious or chronic and so you don't get care. With relatives and clients involved in a teaching hospital I am fully aware of uncompensated health care which is nothing to brag about by anyone. If your doc is always in the ER you're getting crappy care and it is costing tax payers or the hospitals way more than it should. It is both bad health care and inefficient.
But that totally blows your argument that people don't have access to health care. They do as you just said. Are we moving the goalposts from "no care" to "crappy and inefficient care"? By the way, I was in that boat once. When I was in my 20s. But I got an education and a career, so now it's not a worry. I imagine most people in that boat will similarly find a way out.
Sarcasmic, if going to the ER when you can no longer ignore whatever symptom you are faced with - no matter how serious it may prove to be - is what you call Healthcare, you got me.
You're wrong about the future for many. Not everyone has the ability or mental horsepower to get a degree, nor are there those jobs for everyone. Somebody has to pour the concrete, drive the bus, and clean the bed pans. I work in construction and I know these people. Some were vaccine resistant out of fear because they don't go to doctors and want to keep it that way. That works for most until their late 50's and then it can all fall apart.
Even if you can afford the insurance many people can't afford to actually use it.
Do you buy through Obamacare? The deductible is $5,000
But hey my kid get a free teeth cleaning and eye exam...
What a deal
There are many, many plans that have a lower deductible. I know because, since I'm retired, I go through the exchange. And as someone who was self-employed before I built my company up enough to have health benefits, believe me when I tell you it is a LOT cheaper than the individual market was 25 years ago.
When a healthy 25 year old can't get a decent policy for less than $1,000 a month, which includes a lifetime limit and a ban on pre-existing conditions, something is badly wrong.
Insurance companies took advantage of the fact that most of their business was employer plans and used individual plans as a profit center because there was no downside for them. It was one of the things that made starting a business hard back then.
What is scandalous is that ever since Medicare and Medicare were created by Congress, healthcare costs have risen far more rapidly than overall inflation (and far more than its creators claimed would occur).
Many folks who don't have health care insurance have instead chosen to spend the money they saved on expensive girlfriends, cars, houses, entertainment and vacations. And when they get a serious illness, they expect Medicaid (i.e. federal taxpayers) to pay those costs, and then expect Social Security to give them disability payments.
Even worse, after six decades of Medicaid and Medicare, obesity, diabetes, opioid addiction, and mental illness have skyrocketed.
The healthcare system in America now provides far fewer public health benefits, while the costs have continued to skyrocket.
"Many folks who don’t have health care insurance have instead chosen to spend the money they saved on expensive girlfriends, cars, houses, entertainment and vacations. And when they get a serious illness, they expect Medicaid (i.e. federal taxpayers) to pay those costs, and then expect Social Security to give them disability payments."
Are you really pushing the "welfare queen" trope? That all poor people are just soaking the system and anyone on government aid is living the high life and laughing up their sleeves? That's never been true and it's kinda gross that people still believe it.
Not just poor people. Relatively well-off people approaching retirement have no incentive to save for health care. Why should they? That's what Medicare is for.
Bill, the US is the most expensive system in the world, is not universal, and is at best middle of the pack among developed countries for outcomes and patient satisfaction. The rest of that world uses various methods from all govt socialized, like the UK, to mixes of private and public as in France and Germany (Matt Welch wrote a very good article before the 2008 election about how good the care was in France where his wife was from). All those countries however have the federal government negotiate (euphemism for set) prices for the nations patients with providers.
Asshole Joe, please fuck off and die.
Health care is unaffordable due to you and your Marxist friends. Back the fuck off, or else.
That was meant for Joe Friday.
Traitor guy, Medicare rates are the lowest paid. Other than actually providing care for tens of millions, how is this driving rates when every other developed country in the world provides universal coverage for cheaper?
Go f yourself.
Any chance you can find an adult to run next time?
General premise: The negative outcome was foreseen and avoidable.
Specific premise: I failed to avoid it.
Conclusion: Trump's fault?!
A 50/50 question. Like almost all lefty questions, there are two possible answers:
Trump's fault.
"systemic racism"
I appreciate the author pointing out that the GOP used the same tactic on the tax bill of 2017, but there is nothing wrong with the tactic, no matter how much one agrees or disagrees with the bill. Of course legislators intent in 5 or 10 years is irrelevant since they are not guaranteed a seat, let alone a majority to get their way in that time frame. This is a silly column.
They may or may not be able to do math. The issue is that they do not care what the math means
On the contrary, it is being done to deliberately mislead the voters. I don't see how you can say there's "nothing wrong" with that.
He just said he was a liberal. That means "I think lying to achieve my objectives is OK"
I joke about Democrats not being able to do math. Now I'm starting to wonder if it's not a joke at all, but the truth. Are they literally unable to do math?
Are you assuming the gimmicks are unintended?
What gimic? The author highlights the perfectly reasonable practice of not counting wish lists as completed and passed legislation.
"...the perfectly reasonable practice of not counting wish lists as completed and passed legislation."
And dissembling about the cost until it has passed.
"reasonable"?
Is it just an imaginary "wish"...if the program has a 99% likelihood of being continued beyond the expiration date they are asking the CBO to use. It's clear misrepresentation. I'm sure the Pubs have done or would do the same. I seem to recall the budget process being gamed every session.
Math is white, patriarchal, oppression. So, no.
To dumb to even use a calculator. What does this "+" key do, a duh..
Unfortunately it isn't restricted to Democrats. That's how we got in this mess in the first place.
At some point one must ask what the difference is between two and six bullets right between the eyes.
Four.
Better answer
6 costs more than 2, especially when you only need 1 if delivered accurately.
But otherwise dead is dead. And a fiscal cliff is still a fiscal cliff; sad that we've come to regard an extra trillion or two as just another bullet from the gun of government. But it seems that is exactly where we are; for the likes of Sanders, the "Squad," and much of the progressive caucus it is not possible to spend and do too much. As a pop singer in the 70s crooned, "I swear she believes it's all heaven sent."
Government can't do anything accurately. When it is my head, I want 6.
????
Well that didn't come out right.
That's where I'm at right now with this stuff. Two trillion? Six trillion? A quadrillion?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngKT3MIfwpo
It's all money that will never ever even dream of being paid back. The interest alone, if it were anything higher than some ludicrous fractional percentage invented purely to be payable, would be instantly crippling beyond all imagination. It's just an imaginary number. The only way out is inflation; lots of inflation; so much inflation that everything you are currently worth won't buy you the paper needed to print it out on any as-of-yet-to-be-invented denomination of bills you care to name. The fiscal cliff isn't happening. It's long past us at this point in our rearview mirror. I estimate the tires last touched solid ground in 1964 (before one of my parents was even born) and since then we've been sailing through the air in free fall, steering away from relatively softer landings to extend the fall and guarantee a harder stop at the end.
As a matter of pure logic and reason, the stop should come sooner rather than later. Crash it now to prevent it from getting even worse, but it's already going to be so bad that the difference between a trillion more, ten trillion more, a hundred trillion more, I can't really even imagine in my mind what the difference in the end result will be. When the corpses start stacking up at the end, you can only kill people once.
Agreed; those in power now only want to buy as many votes as they can while pushing the pain off to a later time to be SEP [someone else's problem]; when the hurt comes home, it will be so severe and the suffering so intense that SHTF won't even begin the describe it. This of course will set the entire world into a free fall; the response of which will be post Weimar on a massive scale.
Maybe that is the plan.
It's not a plan. It's the opposite of a plan. We'd all love to believe that someone, nefarious as they may be, is in control but no one is. If anyone were in control they never would have let it get to this point. "The elites" as some people like to call them, stand to lose the most from this situation. They have nothing to gain from this continued charade except time and everything to lose. "The people" on the other hand, have little left to lose and much to "gain". This is the eternal appeal of communism to the lower classes. They feel as if they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. They are, of course, wrong, but there are a lot of them and they can be led by someone who will tell them wishes are horses and that pigs have wings. It keeps happening like this because society fails to learn from the past. Maybe in the future, a hundred years from now, the third time will be a charm.
The "elites" as you call them do have something to lose; and that is what they have today; if they can hold onto to it a year, a decade, a generation longer, so be it. The "people" are occupied with immediate concerns [needs, entertainment, diversions, whatever], and don't care to be engaged. So everyone, whether they realize it or not, conspires to keep the circus running, until it doesn't. It is too big to control, but not to fail.
The corpses are already stacking up, but only because rightwing fanatics have made being against hygiene their cause celebre.
What you're talking about are scratches on a ledger. Whom do you think money is owed to? What if the country with the universe's most powerful violent force at its disposal decided not to pay?
Who is this great Accountant in the Sky you people are so afraid of?
I don't know Tony. What happened in
Brazil in the late 80s
China in the late 1940s
Germany in 1923
Greece in WW2
Hungary right after WW2
Poland twice in the last 100 years.
Venezuela right now
Zimbabwe in the mid aughts
Got an answer to this, Tony?
Did we say 3.5 trillion for 10 years?
We meant 2.1 trillion for 6 years.
I would like to see them all executed for even proposing this bullshit.
I would like to make them responsible for paying back the debt. After all they were the ones who created it.
Alt Text - "What do you mean the price of pastrami went up again??"
"a fly! in. my. soup!"
Don't worry. It won't eat much.
"What was that fly doing in your soup?"
"I think it was the back stroke!"
That costs extra. Don't give me that look, these are hard times.
since even the lawmakers who are supposed to vote for this bill don't know precisely what's in or out of the bill at any given moment
the bill should be inherently null and void, right? RIGHT?!
Passit to find out! Just like Secret Santa!
But they felt they could count on Democrats not to raise taxes on broad swaths of the country.
"Feelings, nothing more than feelings ...."
They're not looking at a $3.5 trillion infrastructure spend. The Senate already approved a $1.2 trillion spend. The additional $3.5 trillion brings it up to $4.7 trillion. Trying to palm the $3.5 trillion off as any sort of compromise is a joke.
And none of the 3.5 trillion is "infrastructure". (Heck, only half of the 1.2 trillion was.) It's all about "addressing" climate change and "saving American families", by burdening them with tens of thousands in new debt and runaway inflation.
We're not talking about THOSE families
"Progressives Want To Use a Giant Budget Gimmick To Hide the Cost of the Democrats' Spending Bill"
Some of us real libertarians have been pointing this out (in many postings here at Reason) for the past several months (ever since left wing Congressional Democrats have been advocating this strategy of budgetary deception).
Some of us have been aware of (and opposed to it) since Reagan brought the fallacy of supply-side economics into the national spotlight. Dynamic scoring is a joke that leads to massive deficits. This CBO chicanery is a joke that leads to deficits. As of right now the first one has only been used for tax cuts, but if nanny state Democrats can figure out how to use it, they will.
Face it. There hasn't been a fiscally responsible President in the White House since roughly Eisenhower. And every politician has figured out that it works for them and their support inside their party, so there will never be any pressure to make it better. Only legislation that requires a balanced budget each year will force the issue. And even I'm not optimistic enough to believe that.
How dare you insult Saint Reagan! Blasphemer! Blasphemer!
I'm not sure Ronny should be held accountable for how insanely devious these f*cking Congressmen are. It is truly scary.
'Twas those selfsame Reaganites who convinced you that a balanced federal budget was a meaningful and virtuous thing.
It served the purpose of giving radical neoliberals something to do while they were out of power (scold Democrats for fiscal irresponsibility), while in power, of course, they literally took trillions of dollars and set it on fire in foreign countries nobody cared about and gave trillions of dollars to the already fabulously wealthy, justified by nothing other than the claim that they were wealthy because they were virtuous, and as such deserved even more poor mothers' money.
Not once did any of these dogmatic fiscal scolds ever suggest raising any zillionaire's taxes to achieve their alleged goal.
A public deficit is a private surplus. Saying you want a balanced federal budget is equivalent to saying you want to take money out of private hands. And whichever way you put it, you should describe what social policy goal you are trying to achieve and ask them to be judged on their actual merits, no?
A balanced budget IS a virtuous thing. The fact that Reagan (and every Republican since then) have extolled the virtues of a balanced budget and then deficit spent is hypocrisy, but that doesn't make the central premise false.
If Reagan had rejected supply-side economics and it's inherent fallacies he might have been able to actually balance the budget.
And a balanced budget doesn't mean austerity, where all existing spending is cut without eliminating anything. It mean setting spending priorities and eliminating superfluous, inefficient, duplicative, and obsolete programs. If we can get in the habit of cutting entire programs and recalibrate taxation away from supply-side nonsense we would be able to get things under control a lot faster.
This is not surprising coming from people who loudly insist that increasing a budget by "only" 5% is a "cut" because "I wanted 10%".
"Augh the budget has been cut to the bone! Austerity, evil austerity!"
I want an Oompa Loompa NOW, Daddy!
Orange slavery?
What? No golden eggs for Easter? What about a bean feast?
In today’s age of progressive inflation, it kind of is.
very good
very nice https://www.jobs24pk.website/
Why does Reason refer to these people as 'progressives'? They are LIBERAL's. Just freaking call them what they are.
Because they aren't. Progressives are the far left, liberals are center-left, moderates are the center, conservatives are the center-right, and reactionaries are the far right.
The fringes are often allowed to get away with calling anyone in the other four categories either liberals/marxists or conservatives/nazis. And that should be resisted, but the middle three categories aren't as ... assertive ... as the fringes, so they get away with it.
No verified facts w cited sources
No evidence
No statistics
This “article” is filled with rightwing propaganda emotional trigger words
sensibilities
partisan
fellow travelers [a blast from the past. Smear anyone who advocates for American workers as commies]
politically convenient excuse
Sen. Joe Manchin (West Virginia) and Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (Arizona), won't go for it at that size. [mask the reality that both only work for their donors & own personal profit. Both ignore the vast % of citizens in their states are in favor of the 2 bills. Their “constituency” doesn’t stuff money in their pockets]
stuffed
spending spree [how does “conservatives” label the trillions lost by the pentagon? Silence]
Dagwood sandwich of legislation
pare back your ambitions further [pretend helping the working Americans is “ambitions”]
budget gimmicks
main gimmick
raise taxes on broad swaths of the country. [translates to ask the ultra rich to pay their fair share of taxes. That reality doesn’t poll well, so pretend middle class will have their taxes raised]
hiding their true cost [never heard about spending for gifts to the wealthiest .001%]
simultaneously shameless and timid
a kind of deception
even $2 trillion is not enough [never heard about any bills that don’t help working Americans; not one]
With comments regurgitating more meaningless propaganda phrases
The numbers tell the real story; which explains why the stats not mentioned. Only numbers mentioned is cost. Slam “the cost” forcing the Demwits to only discuss “the cost”
Evidence
Verified facts
Cited sources
Accurate statistics
None of the above in the “article” or comments
Still waiting to find out if you will post anything that is not crass ideological copypasta.
But I doubt that is going to happen as long as you can collect your 50 cents.
And where oh where are your "numbers and stats" by the way?
I can’t figure out how to edit my comment.
I went back over the article & found a couple of points that I was wrong on
There is no edit feature. Thankfully. Posts are chiseled in stone.
Haha. Yeah, at least a couple.
At least they're not encouraging their supporters to infect themselves with a deadly disease to annoy their political opponents.
You'd be mistaken, Tony. Care to explain all those protests/riots from last year?
Yeah, at least a couple.
The solution is to break the bill up into individual bills and have a separate vote on each bill. All bills should be less than 127 pages and have a separate focus.
Each congressional representative or senate member should be REQUIRED to read the entire bill. This is the elected official and not their staffers. Many elected officials treat holding office as a career, so part of the job requirements should be having personally read each and every bill that they vote on.
Every vote should be recorded, so no voice votes. These two items will put each elected official on record for each and every bill. This will slow the growth of government and make government more accountable to the people they are supposed to be serving.
While on the subject of making them do their jobs, might as well do something about delegation [to the administrative bureaucracy] too; that will definitely lessen the incentive to make a career out of being in office.
Yeah, at least a couple.
Nice article