Coronavirus

We Have Vaccines. We Don't Need Pandemic Restrictions.

Denmark recently lifted all COVID mandates. The U.S. should do the same.

|

America remains bound by often extreme pandemic restrictions.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends staying 6 feet away from others. In Oregon, everyone must wear a mask outdoors. In parts of the country, 2-year-olds must wear masks.

Are such rules necessary?

Recently, Denmark lifted all pandemic restrictions.

"Go Denmark!" cheers George Mason University economist Don Boudreaux in my latest video. "We in the United States should do the same."

"We reduced COVID, through vaccination, to a fairly mild ailment for the vast majority of people," says Boudreaux. "You don't have to worry if the bartender at your favorite bar is vaccinated or not. You are protected against suffering severe consequences. Get vaccinated, and then go about your life normally!"

Portugal and Sweden recently removed most restrictions, too. The United Kingdom ditched plans to require "vaccine passports."

"We don't have to continue to upend human life in our quest to eliminate COVID, which can't happen anyway," says Boudreaux.

"Why not?" I ask. "We eliminated smallpox."

"Smallpox resides only in human beings," explains Boudreaux. COVID-19 can live in animals—bats, deer, dogs, cats. "We have never eliminated a disease that uses both humans and animals as reservoirs."

Still, China acted as if eliminating COVID-19 were possible.

They've kept deaths much lower (if you believe their numbers) than other countries by imposing nasty repressive measures like quarantines at gunpoint and even locking people in their homes.

"It's just awful. It's tyrannical. It's what you expect of a communist tyrannical government," says Boudreaux.

Australia's been almost that tough. They've also imposed curfews and arrested people for not wearing masks. In some places, police proudly announced they "smashed windows of people in cars and pull them out…because they weren't telling us where they were going."

Don't worry about losing freedom, says Daniel Andrews, premier of the state of Victoria. "They're not rules that are against you. They are rules for you."

"So say all dictators and tyrants," retorts Boudreaux.

These countries can't lock down forever. When the lockdowns stop, COVID-19 will return.

That's why Denmark ended COVID-19 restrictions.

"It's not admitting defeat; it's admitting reality," says Boudreaux. "We learn to live with COVID in the same way that we learn to live with many other pathogens….The bacteria that caused the Black Death is still circulating in the human population. A handful of people every year still die of it."

In The Wall Street Journal, he wrote, "Eradication of Covid is a dangerous and expensive fantasy."

"We live with countless hazards, each of which we could but sensibly choose not to eradicate. Automobile fatalities could be eradicated by outlawing motor vehicles. Drowning could be eradicated by outlawing swimming and bathing. Electrocution could be eradicated by outlawing electricity. We live with these risks not because we're indifferent to suffering but because we understand that the costs of zero drowning or zero electrocution would be far too great. The same is true of zero Covid."

That's why, now that we have largely effective vaccines, he says it's time to end pointless lockdowns and do what Denmark is doing:

"Live life normally again! Travel, go to parties, weddings, sporting events. Live life and be joyous! Hopefully, humanity will come to its senses soon."

I hope he's right.

COPYRIGHT 2021 BY JFS PRODUCTIONS INC.

NEXT: Facebook Welcomes Regulations, Specifically Those That Hurt Its Competition

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Thanks John. Glad to see you aren’t too busy for an article with that lawsuit of yours. Been quiet here. Thought you had stopped writing for Reason.

    1. And good to see a no-shit libertarian take, instead of the usual ‘libertarians should choose (at least) one anti-libertarian horse and stick with it’ take.

        1. These are 2 pay checks $78367 and $87367. that i received in last 2 months. I am very happy that i can make thousands in my part time and now i am enjrtgroying my life.ghj Everybody can do this and earn lots of dollars from home in very short time period. Your Success is one step away Click Below Webpage…..

          Just visit this website now…… READ MORE

    2. Stossel isn’t on Charlie’s payroll. He’s one of about 3 writers here that actually believes in what he has he believes in.

      1. It is a comment on reason ignoring his lawsuit. Stossel has posted about it in multiple other sites.

      2. Hey Guys, I know you read many news comments and posts to earn money online jobs. Some people don’t know how to earn money and are saying to fake it. You trust me. I just started this 4 weeks ago. I’ve got my FIRST check total of $850, pretty cool. I hope you tried it.YJm You don’t need to invest anything. Just click and open the page to click the first statement and check jobs .. ..

        Here what I do………. VISIT HERE

  2. Who still has them?

    1. Lots of places. Check out NYC for just one of many examples.

      1. “California will also require vaccines for students in kindergarten through sixth grades after the vaccine receives full approval for children ages 5 to 11.”

        https://kcra.com/article/sacramento-city-unified-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-students-staff/37943764

        Are small children going to be required to have their vaccine papers pinned to their shirts, or are we just going to have them chipped?

    2. Well I was just requested by a fellow customer to put my mask up, and he threw in something about just seeing the police get called on someone for not wearing their mask. There are many places with mask requirements that are only getting stricter, based on no metrics. What about ICU capacity? Doesn’t matter anymore.

      Plus they keep rolling out vaccine passport requirements to restaurants, gyms, museums, the list goes on. Its getting ridiculous and the longer it goes on, some people are getting more and more mentally dependent on them to an absurd degree.

      1. Private businesses get to make their own rules. No shirt no shoes no mask no service. Plus assholes are going to be assholes. Trying to make both of these into some sort of partisan political issue is absolutely the wrong approach.

        1. Private businesses get to make their own rules. No shirt no shoes no mask no service.

          No, they don’t. Without commenting whether they should or not, ‘No shirt. No shoes. No service.’ went away along the same lines of ‘blacks only drinking fountains’. Checking vaccine passports infringes on the public trust and is unduly burdensome to the practice of selling people tacos (or whatever).

          Without (further) enhancing TSA and air marshals, even the airline requirements are going to largely go away. At one of the peaks of the pandemic, a large portion of the population got educated by the airlines themselves about how COVID isn’t a worry on airplanes because the air gets recirculated. If it were otherwise, 90% of the people stepping off any given flight or cruise ship would’ve been infected and nowhere was that the case.

          1. because the air gets recirculated

            Sorry, the air *doesn’t* get recirculated (as largely believed).

            1. Depends on the plane type. Some filter and recirculate, and others have 100% fresh air. From Scott McCartney, WSJ, today:

              “Thomas, you are correct—not all aircraft have hospital-grade air filtering that airlines tout as central to controlling viral spread in cabins. The laggards here are generally the smallest of regional jets, and many airlines have been phasing them out anyway. All large aircraft in use today have High Efficiency Particulate Air filters. (Older mainline jets that didn’t are long gone.)

              I checked with big U.S. airlines that use regional jets and found that American has Embraer E140 jets that don’t have HEPA filters. The airline says they are phasing those 44-seat planes out.

              Delta and United use Bombardier CRJ-200s that do not have HEPA filters, but they do use 100% fresh air in ventilation systems. So if no air is recycled, no air needs filtering. Delta also has Boeing 717s that don’t have HEPA filters but also use 100% fresh air. Alaska Airlines says all of the regional aircraft in its network have HEPA filters.”

              1. It’s a foil. Assuming the virus obeys the laws of physics, you would presumably want zero circulation and/or diffusion, fresh air or not. Or at least between passengers. Even getting so concrete as to assume the virus behaves like other viruses or airborn pathogens, you would want zero circulation/diffusion between passengers. Everybody on their own closed (to other people) air system, like the bunny suits they wear when going into clean rooms or hot zones.

                The “No, no. We provide fresh air to our passengers.” is just handwaving to obscure the fact that, really, airlines are in business to make money. Not to ensure their passengers incur zero risk from factors beyond their or the airline’s control.

          2. Except vaccine status is not covered by civil rights laws unless you can get congress to put it there.

            1. First, neither is ‘No shirt. No shoes. No service.’

              Second, yes it is, religious exemptions have traditionally been required/enforced. Specifically because of the 1A but also because of the 14A.

              1. There is that but very few religions. All of the big ones encourage it. The Catholics make it optional because of fetal cell lines used in development.

                1. If it’s optional for one catholic, it’s optional for all catholics.

                2. There are dozens of religions. Just the number of protestant stand alone churches out there is probably in the hundreds.

                  1. Yes and very few of them have a problem with medical health measures.

                    Also from the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

                    Stance on Vaccination 14 April 2015
                    ************************ MEDIA RELEASE 14 April 2015 ************************

                    In response to several recent inquiries as to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster Australia’s, and indeed the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s, stance on vaccination we would like to state;

                    The Flying Spaghetti Monster is all for taking full advantage of medical treatments that are available. He approves of wooden legs for pirates whose legs have been lost to cannon fire, he approves of eye patches for sockets that are missing one, and so, where vaccinations are available to prevent scurvy dog sicknesses and others, He approves.

                    He is not known for suffering the bleating of fools gladly, and this includes the bleating of anti-vaxxers.

                    Please do not hesitate to contact us if you would like more information.

                    Yours in Parmesan,
                    Tanya Watkins
                    Captain, Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster Australia.

                    1. I like how you’ve decided what people believe. Not a bigot at all.

                    2. He’ll get bear to death for it some day, hopefully soon.

                    3. *beat to death

                      Echospinner will get beat to death, hopefully soon, and he 100% deserves it

                    4. “His Noodliness commands that all pirates be shot with cannons, whether they want to or not so that they have wooden legs.”

                3. Pope Francis has proclaimed all the Covid vaccines to be morally acceptable to use, and that it is a moral obligation to get vaccinated. He and Pope Emeritus Benedict have both been vaccinated for Covid.

                  1. Good.

                    For Jews it is mandatory to guard life and health. From Chabad a very orthodox group.

                    “Guarding your own health doesn’t only make sense, it’s actually a mitzvah. That means that even if you don’t want to do it, for whatever reason, you are still obligated to do so. The Torah is teaching us that our body is a gift from G‑d, and we are therefore not the owners of it and we can’t cause it any damage.1

                    It is not enough to deal with health issues as they arise; we must take precautions to avoid danger. The final chapter of the Code of Jewish Law emphasizes that “just as there is a positive commandment to build a guardrail around the perimeter of a rooftop lest someone fall, so too are we obligated to guard ourselves from anything that would endanger our lives, as the verse states,2 ‘Only guard yourself and greatly guard your soul . . .’”3

                    Muslim authorities have come out advocating vaccination. The gulf states were among the first to get mass vaccination.

                    There are not going to be many legit religions exemptions.

                    1. Go fuck yourself, shitspinner.

                  2. The personal opinions of the Bishop of Rome are not Catholic Doctrine.

                4. I should add that, third, there is no ‘medical exemption’ outlined in the Constitution either but it’s not just a wrong, but exceedingly shitbag mendacious, if not outright evil, reading of The Constitution that says; “The Constitution doesn’t grant an exception for medical exemptions, ergo, mandatory vaccines for the people it would knowingly kill are in.”

          3. Public accommodations section of the civil rights act of 1964 is based on protecting those of all races, which is an immutable fact of birth. Choosing to get a vaccine or not is behavioral and would not be protected.

        2. So they can ignore the governor mandating masks inside? Awesome!!!!

        3. I have to admit, my whole attitude about following house rules comes from a steady diet of Western TV shows and movies as a kid: if the owner of the saloon or hotel, or the town sheriff tells you it is the house rules that you check your gun, you respectfully check your gun.

          Same with masks. You voluntarily enter someone’s place of business, you respectfully follow their house rules.

          1. Your life lessons are based on television and not based on well investigated thought. Makes sense.

          2. “The sign says ‘No Negros’ and, well, house rules is house rules.” – Mike Laursen

          3. You know who else was just following orders?

            1. Whatever. Abiding by a private party’s house rules as part of voluntarily associating with them is not what is not following orders that are forced upon you.

              This is Libertarianism 101 stuff.

              1. House Rules, ‘No Mike Lausen’s’. Called it!

          4. Get off your knees.

        4. Private businesses don’t make the rules. OSHA and Newsom and LA County and Santa Clara County and San Francisco make the rules, and all seem to be outdoing each other in the stupid.

          1. Of course, private businesses make rules.

            1. How about you read past the first sentence, illiterate?

    3. WA requires masks everywhere indoors and vax passes for events. Oregon requires masks everywhere INDOORS OR OUT and vax passes for events.

    4. I put all my cloth masks in some storage box out in the garage, along with some N95 masks we had left over from having to wear them for wildfire smoke.

      The few places, like doctors’ offices, that still require them, seem to all have free paper masks to hand out. (And, yes, I know all about paper and homemade masks being ineffective. I think it’s dumb I am asked to wear a mask anywhere now that I’m vaccinated.)

      1. What did western movies tell you to do?

        1. Wear a bandana at your bank. It freaks them out.

    5. Illinois still has mask mandates.

      1. New Mexico is a masking nightmare. Same for Boston,

        1. Laws are there but nobody cares.

  3. How’s any of this going to help the Davos crowd and the WEM enact Agenda 2030?
    And if you don’t have blacks terrified of incipient racism, teens terrified of environmental collapse, wine moms worried about QAnon, and Boomers thinking a nasty cold is the black death, who would vote for the Democrats?

    No, Covid is far too valuable to just ignore and get on with life.

    1. Since when have colds become the third leading cause of death in the US? So 718,000 people total and 2,541 people two days ago died from colds in the US yesterday but nobody noticed.

      1. More died under SleepyJoe in 9 months.

      2. You have no clue how many people with weakened immune systems died of colds and flu in hospitals and seniors homes annually, do you. Remarkably it was pretty much exactly the same numbers you just quoted, leaving out the car accidents and gunshot victims.

        Meanwhile, deaths from colds and flu have effectively disappeared. Strange, huh?

        Anyway, keep trembling. Only your eternal vigilance against freedom will keep Covid at bay.

        1. A very bad flu season might result in 60,000 deaths. One year of COVID results in 600,000 deaths. The the numerically innumerate, that’s a whole order of magnitude worse. And deaths from colds are a fraction of deaths from influenza.

          Yes, death from colds happen, but don’t be juggling zeros trying to pretend COVID is just the common cold.

          1. Except there has never been broad testing for flu or cold viruses in almost everyone who dies. If flu deaths were counted and monitored the same way covid deaths have been, I bet those numbers would be a lot higher.

            1. Again, for the last several decades, excluding accidental deaths, chronic lung disease has killed 150K people every year, influenza and pneumonia kills 50K, and, if anything, COVID has highlighted the spurious and entirely subjective difference between ‘with chronic lung disease’ vs. ‘of chronic lung disease’.

              1. Chronic lower respiratory disease is not infection.

                CLRD encompasses chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), which includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis; as well as asthma, pulmonary hypertension, and occupational lung diseases.

                1. So you’re saying vaccines wouldn’t help people with chronic bronchitis?

                  1. Chronic bronchitis is a chronic inflammation of the bronchi. They have restrictive lung disease and COPD. They are prone to infection but it can be a combination of a number of common bacteria. They can become colonized with these.

                    1. No shit dumbass. Do you understand that the issue isn’t the progression, but the etiology, the ‘with vs. from’ categorization?

                    2. No I an saying that you cannot lump chronic lower respiratory disease with pneumonia, or flu. They are entirely different.

                    3. “No I an saying that you cannot lump chronic lower respiratory disease with pneumonia, or flu. They are entirely different”

                      Another ignorant ass pull from you.

                      Give it up.

                    4. No I an saying that you cannot lump chronic lower respiratory disease with pneumonia, or flu. They are entirely different.

                      So, all those years of med school and you are, with 100% accuracy, well beyond and even a bit contradictory to current medical science, able to determine who died of bronchitis and who died of pneumonia even when both are present in the same corpse? Both can and do exist in, not even just the same body, but even the same organs and tissues, both can and do cause the other, but you’re able, through some kind of space-time medical magic, able to determine which came first, and which was predominantly responsible for the patient’s demise. Uncredible!

                      I won’t hold my breath waiting for you to receive your Nobel.

                    5. I won’t hold my breath waiting for you to receive your Nobel.

                      I’m sure all the doctors who’ve successfully treated both pneumonia and bronchitis with vaccines will be relieved to hear that you’ve confirmed that the diseases aren’t infectious and that they can stop saving people by treating them with vaccines.

                      What’s next? Going to confirm, ex cathedra, that cervical cancer is, in no way, directly related to or caused by an infectious disease either?

                    6. Not worth it Mad. You have no idea what you are talking about.

                      Really you are not and have never been there. Your purpose here is you are emotional and trying to score debate points.

                      Go ahead. Keep my chips. This is not a game for me.

                      I need to get back to mopping the floors.

                2. Shitspinner, you’re a moron who misread that science book for dummies you’re so proud of.

            2. Except Zeb you can put error bars on any of those. They do give a range for flu and other things. Still they are in no way comparable.

              1. Sure, I see what you mean. Seems like the covid data is a big mess, though. I won’t trust the numbers for some time yet.
                And I’m not trying to say that covid is no big deal (though it is much less of a big deal than many perceive it to be). Just that it doesn’t justify the ridiculous shit that has been done in the name of trying to stop/mitigate it.

                1. Well I have never advocated for those government advocated measures. So there we are. There is far too much disinformation out there. That worries me.

                  1. Much of it spread by you in favor of global socialist totalitarian bigotry.
                    Echospinner is a truly evil creature.

                  2. And yet you push that disinformation like you’re building a dam, Shitspinner.

                  3. Well I have never advocated for those government advocated measures.

                    They aren’t, exactly, government advocated. The government didn’t say “Let there be pneumonia and chronic lower respiratory infections.” They are/were loosely defined etiologies, decided upon by committee, that are under constant reformation. You can be certain that heart disease is distinct from most forms of cancer and that heart disease kills more people than cancer, but as you go down the list the distinction between any given tier depends more and more on what 51% of a committee said (potentially decades ago) based on then-current medical science.

                    See Feynman’s reference to Milikan’s measure of charge on an electron. Feynman wasn’t wrong to point out this sort of cargo cult science and, to a degree, he wasn’t wrong to write/lecture on it. The aspect he gets wrong is that he uses a fixed physical constant, which doesn’t apply to relatively fast moving targets like infectious disease and human morbidity/mortality (he goes on to other analogous examples of poor science in other fields), and, more critically, assumes that simply by conceptualizing such cargo cult behavior, all of humanity is able to say, “Aha! I’m conducting cargo cult science and need to stop!”

          2. If we counted flu deaths the same as we counted covid deaths we’d have roughly 300,000 a year — before we even get to the people the flu actually killed.

            That’s why we don’t count anybody with a tiny piece of flu virus in them (maybe 28 days ago!) as a flu death.

          3. A very bad flu season might result in 60,000 deaths. One year of COVID results in 600,000 deaths.

            If we tracked flu cases like we did COVID, including swabbing crash victims for the virus, that number would be a lot higher, too.

            1. C’mon now you are seeing clearly contradictory data and wishing it away.

              1. Nah, this has been a complaint about the covid data from day 1. So much of the reaction has been driven by the way the numbers are calculated and reported.

                1. How many gunshot, drug overdose, and car accident deaths are ever coded as Flu? I don’t have a grasp on the degree the numbers are inflated, but they are obviously using different metrics for Flu deaths and COVID deaths.

                2. Everything has a range of error and probability. That is why they report confidence intervals in scientific papers. People who use that data and know how to interpret it are aware of this.

                  Cause of death is often complicated.

                  what you are talking about is just Covid minimizers who do not understand critical medicine and epidemiology. That take a few anecdotes to confirm their false belief and run with it. It is really just a state of denial.

                  1. Everything has a range of error and probability.

                    No. Only statistics has a range of error and probability. There is zero probability that red is green.

                    1. Yet statistics was the subject matter

                    2. Yet statistics was the subject matter

                      There can be only one subject under discussion? How very Papal of you.

                      Just statistics? Not infectious disease or mortality? There isn’t just no “The corpse in the morgue is probably not dead.” the entire endeavor, from both sides, is actually to ensure that does not take place.

                      R.A. Fisher would be ashamed of your claim to being a rational, thinking human.

                  2. confidence intervals

                    Trust the “Science!”

                    Reasonable people’s confidence interval in their “confidence intervals” is near 0.

              2. C’mon now you are seeing clearly contradictory data and wishing it away.

                When did we start tracking flu cases like Covid cases?

              3. Except two audits, one in California and one in Colorado, both decreased covid deaths by 30% after going through records. Oregon just ordered theirs to be looked through as well.

          4. Hey retard… there was a very bad flu season above 60k. One even just this decade

        2. Nope. Not even close.

          And yes I do very much have a clue.

          Flu deaths which includes colds for 2019 are estimated at 24,000 to 62,000. Data not in for last year. At the most less than 1/10 of Covid.

          1. How many PCR tests do they do for cold and flu viruses?

            1. Those estimates are for people that they think died because of the flu, not with the flu. How many terminal cancer patients in hospice are considered flu deaths every year? Covid obviously killed a lot of people who wouldn’t have otherwise died, but I’d bet good money the majority of those 700k wouldn’t still be with us, rona or not.

            2. There is a PCR test for flu it is routinely done because they look similar. There is also a rapid test. You are right that it is not run for mild cases. Instead you test for Covid and assume it is a flu or other mild viral infection.

              So that is why they give a range. You could put error bars around any diagnosis. All of medicine deals with uncertainty. It is just this one is freaking people out which is understandable.

        3. Reason really needs a “thumbs up”, a “like”, or a “oh, HELL YEAH!” button. I salute you.

      3. Since when have colds become the third leading cause of death in the US?

        Like the last 4-5 decades. Pneumonia and respiratory ailments have been the number 3 cause of death in the US, behind cancer and heart disease, for my entire life and the majority of my parents’.

        1. Nope.

          Heart disease: 659,041
          Cancer: 599,601
          Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
          Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
          Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
          Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499
          Diabetes: 87,647
          Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
          Influenza and pneumonia: 49,783
          Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511
          Source: Mortality in the United States, 2019, data table for figure 2

          1. Fair enough. Pneumonia and respiratory ailments have been the number 3 cause of medically treatable death in the US for my entire life and the majority of my parents’.

      4. When was the flu the primary cause? One year? We didn’t change society over one off events then too.

        Also does with vs died of is so notorious even Oregon opened an investigation into their hospitals looking for fudged numbers due to pay increases for covid cases.

        1. And what did they find?

          1. Like it’s going to be complete any time soon.

  4. Fuck mandates and Fuck Joe Biden.

    1. Fuck Joe Biden

        1. Brandy wants to buck Donald Trump. Cowgirl style.

          1. Let’s Go Brandy!

        2. Gave up both siding this with a fuck biden also? That lasted what, 2 posts?

          1. Brandy wants Trump to buck her from both sides.

    2. Fuck all the stupid shit, and Joe Biden.

    3. Fuck Joe Biden and his grundlehunters posing as libertarians.

  5. And all of a sudden the left forgets about their crush on those sophisticated and sensible European welfare states.
    The messaging continues to be extreme and retarded in the US. I fear we won’t get to where these countries are until at soonest next spring.

    1. The free stuff brigade never cared an ounce for freedom.

      1. It really is the sinister, unspoken agreement between the voter and government, that “you can do whatever you want, as long as the free shit keeps flowing”.

        Which ultimately leads to open corruption, which we’re currently seeing from the Biden’s/Burisma, to the US AG publicly calling on the FBI to protect his family’s financial interests.

        And proven by example over and over again, openly corrupt governments destroy their country’s economy. I can’t think of any exceptions.

    2. I would say we are not much different, if at all from the euros at this point with a few exceptions. France and Italy have stricter vaccine mandates than we do.

      1. have you seen the violent protest in France and Italy over mandates Americans need to stand up as well but we are now week

        1. It is a national sport there.

    3. They want the taxes, the pan welfare programs AND the American left’s penchant for authoritarianism. The super-cool laid back Dutch sensibilities regarding helmets on bicycles, mixed foot traffic with bikes and motorcycles etc. can fuck right off.

    4. Point out their approach to school-aged children and be prepared for a chorus of “NUH UH” in response.

      1. FFS, go to Google if they do ‘dropping’ in Denmark like they do in The Netherlands and the first full page of results is ‘Denmark dropping COVID restrictions’.

    5. The messaging has to be extreme and retarded because there’s no actual logic behind any of it, just a power grab.

  6. Aside from what is going on in NY which is not a lockdown and some stuff in CA I think I am not aware of any restrictions. I see some people with masks but that is by choice. Not sure what he is talking about.

    1. MA – My company still forces people to social distance, wear special vaccinated vs. unvaccinated badges, mask everywhere except your desk, and wear devices that beep if you get too close to someone else. And now they are strongly nudging people back to the office to work in those ridiculous conditions.

      Then everyone goes outside the office building and goes to lunch and interacts in the world like normal human beings.

      It’s all so fucking absurd.

      1. My company requires vaccine now even for remote workers. The places we contract with are requiring it.

        1. Fuck off and die, chicken little.

      2. You need a different job – – – – – – – –

    2. There are local restrictions in many places in Massachusetts. Lots of schools and businesses requiring masks. Many localities requiring proof of vaccination for certain activities.
      We seem to be past the forced business closures and “essential worker” idiocy, but there are still plenty of restrictions on normal behavior in many places.

      1. Those are not government restrictions they are choices of businesses and local school boards. I suppose there are some localities with restrictions. However almost everywhere things are back to normal pretty much.

        Vaccine mandates thus far are by choice of businesses and institutions aside from the military and government workers.

        I think in time these trends will continue.

        I saw that one of the airlines is defying the Texas governor’s order and continuing to require vaccination. This is going to end up in court.

        1. However almost everywhere things are back to normal pretty much.

          Jesus h Christ where do you live? I want to move there. It’s all masks, all the time, all passports, all the time.

          1. Flyover country. And now in the southern part. Y’all are welcome any time.

            1. Roswell?
              Druid Hills?

              Get the fuck out you piece of shit.
              Better yet, get fucking dead.

        2. No, everything I mention is at least in part from government mandates. Where have you been? School boards are government.
          Did none of this actually happen? https://reason.com/search/vaccine+passport

        3. Those are not government restrictions they are choices of businesses and local school boards.
          Holy crap that’s just stupid.

        4. Echo I don’t think these choices are of free will. They’ve either been pushed into it or they’ve had little to no objectivity in reporting and effective diet of panic porn and the resulting actions are really a of sound mind and body choice.

          1. “really not of a”

          2. Please. Call him spinner. That is what he is doing. Although he is echoing democrat talking points.

            1. Lol I have never voted for a democrat in my life.

          3. I’m sure there is some of that. But I don’t think McDonalds has been pushed much.

            1. Another fucking idiot.

        5. Vaccine mandates thus far are by choice of businesses and institutions aside from the military and government workers.

          Umm they are also illegal.
          https://www.zerohedge.com/political/approved-version-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-still-not-available-us

          Officials in 19 states confirmed this week they have not received the approved version, known as Cominarty. So did pharmacies in New York, California, and Missouri.

          A Pfizer spokesperson told The Epoch Times in an email that there are no doses of Cominarty in the United States as of Oct. 12.

          The lack of availability means vaccine mandates based on the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval are unlawful, lawyers representing clients challenging the requirements say.

          “Under the emergency use authorization, everyone has an option to accept or refuse the product. And that means every person, military and civilian. So this is critical. All of the mandates, from the military to the civilian population, are violating federal law,” Mathew Staver, chairman of Liberty Counsel, a Christian legal group, told The Epoch Times.

          1. It is not a version they changed the brand name for marketing reasons. It is the same vaccine. If they had a new “improved “ version they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

            From the FDA.

            “Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty (koe-mir’-na-tee), for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older. The vaccine also continues to be available under emergency use authorization (EUA), including for individuals 12 through 15 years of age and for the administration of a third dose in certain immunocompromised individuals.“

            1. “Marketing “. LOL.

              1. Echospinner is a virus much worse than covid.

        6. School boards are government backed…

          And the Southwest ceo literally said yesterday their mandate was due to the federal EO.

          What so you get out of blatantly lying?

          1. They are anticipating that. Because they have nice government contracts and don’t want to lose those. It is a business decision. I had to prove vaxx status to my company because we have contracts with places requiring it including contractors.

              1. “It’s a private company, so there’s nothing you can do. Also, it’s the government, so there’s nothing you can do.”

                It’s almost like these people aren’t arguing out of principle or something.

            1. So they are doing it for government reasons. Are you fucking retarded?

            2. It is absolutely not a voluntary business decision but coercion by the federal govt. You won’t get away gaslighting people into believing corporations are implementing all these policies that are contra constitutional by making it seem like these are sensible market based choices.

              Anybody that understands government knows exactly what is going on. Biden’s circle is shrewd enough to know that EO’s, threats and arm twisting are just as good as law especially when your can threaten future work with contractors.

              The fact of the matter is, stifling free speech, free association and rejecting American’s conscientious objections, from whatever entity, is antithetical to the spirit of the Founding and to the values of Libertarianism. It makes these corporations state actors.

              From the president down to his press spokesperson can’t stop talking and bragging about how hard the executive branch is leaning on corporate America. It’s appalling that some libertarians applaud this behavior under the guise of a business’s’ prerogative to run itself or by pretending to be naïve enough to believe it. Just because it punishes the low class and low rent people who embarrass your sensibilities doesn’t justify it morally and/or ethically.

          2. School boards are government backed but they have leeway in how they deal with Covid. The one we have here changes the rules every couple of months it seems. Why do you think they have so much variation from one place to another?

            1. I thought the science was settled.

    3. We have a vaccine mandate that kicks in in about a week– was set down by the governor last month.

      We’re still under a statewide mask mandate, your vaccination status can go bugger itself:

      As of September 13, Washington state requires that everyone ages 5 and older, regardless of vaccination status, wear masks in indoor public settings like grocery, retail, theaters, and entertainment establishments, and at outdoor events with 500 or more people. Masks are also recommended for everyone in crowded outdoor settings.

      Masking in high-risk settings helps to protect everyone, including those that currently aren’t able to be protected by the vaccine such as children under twelve, and those who are immune suppressed. Some vaccinated people may choose to wear a mask if they are at increased risk for severe infection, have an underlying health condition, or are in close contact with someone at increased risk. Some people also wear masks to protect themselves from other respiratory illnesses or allergens.

      1. To be clear, I mean to say Vaccine Passport requirement to navigate public life.

      2. And there are vaccine mandates for all state employees in Wa. So restrictions abound.

        1. In my view the government can do that just like any employer. Everyone understands that their jobs are conditional. Nobody has a right to one.

          1. Fuck you.

          2. So how do we fire congress and the president?

            1. I should clarify today, this week, month. Not at elections since they work for us.

            2. Then don’t work for the government. If it were up to me we would get rid of half of it anyway.

              1. Echospinner is lying, because it depends on government to make the world safe for it.
                If it did not have government goons protecting it, it would already have been killed.
                It is a virus.

          3. Look, you seem bemused that anyone had restrictions. I’m currently sitting here in a mandated mask, vaccinated, social distanced from my nearest vaccinated co-worker, and in about 10 days, I won’t be able to walk into any local establishment (with a few exceptions such as grocery stores etc.) without showing a medical record to a twink in a rainbow mask, or I get chucked from the premises.

            So again, I don’t know where YOU live where things feel “back to normal”, but I’m willing to admit that ones perceptions may be informed by their local environment.

            In my view the government can do that just like any employer. Everyone understands that their jobs are conditional. Nobody has a right to one.

            Oh, and by the way, this means that I am correct, that an employer can mandate sterilization for an abortion for their female employees on condition of future employment. You can (try to) make a utilitarian argument against that, but not an ethical body/autonomy argument against it.

            1. That is a shame. Went to southern Ohio last week and it was like here.

              1. It’s pretty normal in NH too. No more state of emergency, so no state measures. Schools are still being restrictive though. And that is government mandates.

          4. So you side against what Rosa Parks did.

            1. Or course.

          5. You need Jesus.

            1. Well a little faith wouldn’t hurt.

      3. That one is ridiculous. Hopefully in time they will cool down. Really the government needs to stay out of it.

    4. Consider yourself lucky. Where I live there has been mask mandates all year but for two weeks. Children run around during recess – all wearing masks at all ages at all times. Its required.

      Plus they are rolling out more and more vaccine passport requirements for daily life.

      1. Actually where I live has always been pretty loose except at the start.

        I travelled to Cincinnati over the weekend and it was the same way and it looked that way in the states I drove through.

        1. Actually where I live has always been pretty loose except at the start.

          Not everyone lives where you do, you solipsistic dipshit.

          1. Moreover, the spread of statism is far quicker with a seemingly interminable latency period.

    5. I see some people with masks but that is by choice.

      Stupid handwaving is stupid. You’ve personally asked them if it’s by choice or no? Even if it is by choice, that doesn’t make it normal. If everybody started wearing tin foil hats to prevent the CIA from listening to their thoughts, by choice, would you consider that normal?

    6. St. Louis City and County MO still have:
      – Mask mandates for all indoor spaces, vaccinated or not.
      – Mask mandates on all public transit, vaccinated or not.
      – Mandatory quarantine periods for anyone with contact with a positive case, vaccinated or not.
      – Restrictions on occupancies below typical capacity. (i.e. at banquet halls and restaurants)

      As of yesterday we had 300 hospitalized cases (with) in a region of 3 million people. 1 in 10,000. These were unilateral executive decrees by the mayor and the county executive.

      The Federal government is still running a mask mandate at all of their facilities, are they not? Not to mention these vaccine mandates they’ve already imposed on their own employees and contractors. Or the ones they intend for all private employers with over 100 people.

      Didn’t the TSA recently extend their masking requirements in all interstate airports, train stations, bus terminals, etc, in addition to while actually inside the vehicle, through mid January or so?

      That’s not ‘by choice’ – there’s no option to decline.

    7. Chicago and most/all of Cook County have mask mandates. I believe Chicago is going the vaccine passport route as well

      1. All of Illinois. Fuck Pritzger.

        1. Remember when he sent his whole family to his Florida vacation home during his own travel restrictions?

      2. IL Governor JB Pritzker working to close loophole exploited for vaccine mandate (warning: autoplay):

        SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (WLS) — In the battle over COVID vaccine mandates, Governor JB Pritzker is quietly working behind the scenes to revise a law some groups are invoking to try and avoid the requirement.

        The Health Care Right of Conscience Act bans discrimination by public or private institutions “because of such persons conscientious refusal to receive…or participate in any way in any particular form of healthcare services contrary to his or her conscience.”

        The Fraternal Order of Police, who have led the fight in Chicago against Mayor Lori Lightfoot’s COVID vaccine mandate for all city employees, are among those looking to use this loophole.

        “At face value, it’s usable,” said FOP president John Catanzara. “I mean, it literally says if you have a firmly held religious belief, a firmly held conscientious belief, against a medical procedure, you are covered by that statute. Period.”

        LEARN MORE: What to know about religious exemptions for COVID shots as vaccine mandates roll out

        But the ACLU of Illinois said the intent of the law was to protect medical providers from being forced to do things like perform abortions or provide contraceptives contrary to religious beliefs.

        “No one ever contemplated that this would be used in a fashion where an individual would be able to opt out of care, of a service, and then collect protection under the right of conscience,” said Ed Yohnka, ACLU of Illinois.

        The FOP is right to be defending religious liberty but damned if I didn’t want them all to die in a Polish firing squad.

        1. “No one ever contemplated that this would be used in a fashion where an individual would be able to opt out of care, of a service, and then collect protection under the right of conscience,” said Ed Yohnka, ACLU of Illinois.

          “Nobody ever contemplated that the conscientious objector statute would allow people to object under the right of conscience.” I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a statement.

          1. “Nobody ever contemplated someone might object to something *I* demanded of them”

        2. He’s a fat fucking prick, so by echo’s logic, not government. Gotta be a state or local thing.

    8. You’re not aware of anything that contradicts your preconceived Team Blue narrative, Shitspinner.

  7. >>America remains bound by

    tyrants posing as representatives of the populace

    1. George Washington require his troops to take smallpox vaccine.

      1. He had a vax that worked.

        1. Do you have the stats on his vaccine or were you pulling that out of your wooden teeth?

      2. smallpox 30% kill rate covid 0.02% kill rate, its more dangerous to drive to work.

        1. You are mixing up your numbers. The rate you give for smallpox reflects the death rate for people with the disease. The rate you give for Covid reflects deaths for the population as a whole, the crude fatality rate. The confirmed case fatality rate for Covid is around 3% although it can vary depending on how you measure it. The odds of surviving serious Covid is around 50%.

          1. The odds of surviving serious Covid is around 50%.
            ———–
            Holy shit I’ve officially heard the dumbest thing regarding Covid ever.

            1. LOL, no kidding. What the fuck is “serious COVID”–when the hospital puts you on a vent and kills you through sepsis or ventilator-induced pneumonia, and then calls it a COVID death to get fedbucks?

              1. I’ll post it again.

                From the NIH

                Severe Illness: Individuals who have SpO2 <94% on room air at sea level, a ratio of arterial partial pressure of oxygen to fraction of inspired oxygen (PaO2/FiO2) 30 breaths/min, or lung infiltrates >50%.

                Critical Illness: Individuals who have respiratory failure, septic shock, and/or multiple organ dysfunction.

                These are patients who are dying if you do not give them life support. They can’t get oxygen through their lungs.

                1. A very low percentage of patients. So you are fine with global lockdowns because of 0.02% IFR.

                  1. Turns out, he’s an idiot. Who knew?

                  2. I have never advocated for lockdowns or government mandates of any kind. I am opposed to them actually. I take the libertarian road of individual responsibility and rights of business or institutions to set their own policies.

                    You are using the IFR for people age 25 or younger. It goes up considerably after that. Without age stratification IFR is meaningless in this disease.

                    Here read something.

                    http://epimonitor.net/Covid-IFR-Analysis.htm

                    1. Above you just said government tying contracts to behaviors is fine.

                      Youre full of shit.

                    2. I have worked in business with government contracts. When my boss says do x then do x. Otherwise good bye nice working with you. Same with private contracts. Entirely normal.

                      So it gets complicated like it or not. We are interconnected in many ways. It is not all about government control. It is about the market which nobody can control, not even the government.

                      Autonomy is an inviolable principle to me. It often involves difficult choices. When you have autonomy you are responsible for those choices.

                  3. So Jesse you learned something there are actual criteria for serious Covid. That is just one example but medicos are very aware because it drives clinical decision making in a critical situation.

                    It is much more complicated than that. Not worth going into here.

                    Then you bring up global lockdowns which I am against and always have been. Is that some sort of way of arguing about “what the fuck is “serious Covid””

                    Slow down.

                    Just my advice.

                2. Individuals who have respiratory failure, septic shock, and/or multiple organ dysfunction.

                  These are patients who are dying if you do not give them life support. They can’t get oxygen through their lungs.

                  Yeah, no shit–because it’s a vascular illness. Putting them on a vent doesn’t do jack shit to get oxygen in to their lungs, because their tissues are so inflamed that the oxygen can’t get through to the begin with.

                  So the hospitals put them on a vent out of sheer stupidity, and end up killing the patients anyway because they leave them on for too fucking long and cause secondary infections.

                  1. It is a systemic illness actually.

                    By the time you are going all out in the ICU the patient is dying. They are crashing. They are not getting enough oxygen. They are going into shock. The blood pressure is dropping. The major organ systems are failing, heart, brain, kidneys, lungs, everything.

                    We talk about heroic efforts. By that time it is a last ditch effort.

                    That is reality and I see it every time I mop those floors. There is an art to floor mopping.

                    Well why am I talking. I cannot say here but I know this. So far as I can say here I sweep the floors, deliver supplies, and empty the trash bins for 25 years at the hospital. An honorable and very useful occupation. You can learn a lot if you keep your ears open.

                    You really have no idea or experience about what drives the decision to intubate. You have never worked in an ICU or made those choices. Rounds start at 7am. Be ready.

                    .

                    1. Jesus Christ, you’re a fucking janitor and you’re lecturing us about this shit?

                      By the time you are going all out in the ICU the patient is dying. They are crashing. They are not getting enough oxygen. They are going into shock. The blood pressure is dropping. The major organ systems are failing, heart, brain, kidneys, lungs, everything.

                      The patient is dying because the idiots put them on a vent to begin with and left them there. They aren’t getting enough oxygen due to inflamed tissues, making the vent utterly useless.

                    2. Damn, I gave him too much credit in assuming he did data entry.
                      LOL

                    3. Holy fuck, so you didn’t even buy the science book, you picked up one the kids tossed… Oh, Shitspinner.

                    4. ^Shit that didn’t happen.

                      Otherwise, please tell us what hospital you work at where you were standing at the ready, mop in hand, while the decision to intubate was still being made. Because they’ve got a janitor that doesn’t know dick about asceptic technique, bedside manner, and hospital procedure and should almost certainly be fired (assuming the hospital can afford to even let go of warm bodies even in the janitorial staff).

                    5. Jeez you are easy Red Rocks. And Mad.

                      I live a simple life. Saved up some money awhile back and bought shares in a book company called Amazon and another one that had something to to do with apples. My family is in good shape. One less thing to worry about.

                      So it has been an honor to clean up in the hospital all these years. If you work with dignity and respect for what you do and other people work becomes worthwhile.

          2. Is serious covid a new variant?

            1. I caught the hilarious version at a TOOL concert in January 2020

            2. N. medically Covid infection is classified into mild, moderate, serious, or critical. There are accepted criteria for these categories. I posted some of it above. This is how professionals approach the disease so you can treat it appropriately.

            3. You have to parse the data carefully to scare idiots like spinner.

          3. The odds of dying of Covid vary greatly with age. I doubt there were many septuagenarians in Washington’s army. For my age group its about .2%

          4. Shitspinner…!

      3. And there is totally nothing different about that situation. All citizens should be treated like soldiers during a war.

      4. Are you the dbruce on miata.net?

      5. George Washington was a terrorist.

      6. Variolation is not vaccination. And introduced full-strength smallpox to the uninfected.

      7. Not the ones who already survived smallpox.

      8. How many civilians? How many bar patrons? How many schoolchildren?

      9. Bruce to clear it up he exposed them to a less virulent form of small pox – not the vaccine which was officially create some years later. He also did this out past experiences of it being used against him by the British to take down troops. You should understand the context and clearly define what you mean as vaccine, if you wanted to act like washington then you’d be fine with low risk groups exposing themselves to Covid and being “vaccinated” as you say.

        1. Not only that, but he did it outside the campaign season because he knew at least some, if not the majority, of his troops were going to come down with a mild form of the illness as a result.

          Hell, when I got the small pox vaccine myself, I even had an adverse reaction when my lymph nodes swelled up for a few days. It felt like I had a couple of baseballs attached to my armpits. I can’t imagine what some of these poor bastards had to go through to get immune.

          1. I had that too. Few people have now. There was a scare after 9/11 and they offered it to certain workers.

        2. Used a sister virus, the cowpox.

      10. Also, he may have done some kind of variolation, but Edward Jenner didn’t demonstrate the effectiveness of vaccination until 1796.

      11. Let’s do things the way they did it in the 1700’s.
        Science!

        1. I’ll get vaccinated if we depose the crown.

  8. Still, China acted as if eliminating COVID-19 were possible

    They certainly had a reason for doing so, when the US had a White House that was willing to point fingers and assign blame for Kung Flu.

    The current party that controls both the White House and Congress seems more willing to assign blame on the the American people, for not obediently complying with vaccine and mask mandates being issued at will from their betters.

    I’m sure China’s government is happy with this change in directing the blame. Xie xie, Democrats.

  9. FACT: The tyrant Gavin Nuisance and local health authorities in Commiefornia are still demanding mandatory indoor mask wearing until, well, who knows when.

    1. Except for laundromats, am I right?

      1. Only the French ones are excepted 🙂

  10. It should go without saying at this point, but Pandemic Restrictions are about Restrictions, not about the Pandemic.

  11. live Life normally, won’t ever happen again with the “success” of covid restirctions one California university is now extending the same rules for flue vaccines. if you don’t get your flue vaccine you must now wear a mask and do your schooling on line. they have touched the mantle of power and control and will not give it up.

    1. I was afraid of that happening. Craziness.

    2. Next step, fitbit trackers. Mandatory data uploads showing exercise for the week. Its really not that much of a leap.

      1. At least if they had done that earlier it might have been somewhat effective in combatting severe illness, if still unacceptable authoritarian.

        1. This is a flu+ for fatties. 18 months to flatten their curves and instead they nom nom nom while promoting draconian mandates.

    3. From the Sac Bee article: “The University of California has issued an executive order requiring all students, staff and faulty to receive their flu vaccinations on or before Nov. 19”

      I guess every half-assed tin pot dictator in the land thinks they can issue “executive orders” now.

      Where did they get that idea from?

      1. Because the first three to try it weren’t lynched immediately?

  12. So far the Rs have opposed every covid prevention measure. We are completely done caring what they think. We can end restrictions when we get over 90% vaccination rate. Until then the anti-vaccine nuts have only themselves to blame. Also why are we taking medical advice from an economist?

    1. Fuck off fascist, and good for the R’s.

    2. Stop pretending that the vaccines work the way you wished they did. Why is it so fucking hard to understand that the vaccines aren’t going to make the virus go away? They do not stop infection or transmission. 90% vaccination won’t matter. Israel has already demonstrated that.
      Get the vaccine to protect yourself and mind your own fucking business.
      I wish that Republicans had opposed every covid measure, but that is very far from the truth. And government measures didn’t do much and came at enormous costs. Your faith in these measures is very odd given the lack of evidence that they have done any good at all.

      1. Actually 90% was for the older population not the population as a whole. I have posted links showing that it did matter. Nobody reads those but it was a large study published in the Lancet. Here is the conclusion.

        “Without vaccination, Israel would have likely experienced approximately three times the number of hospitalisations and deaths compared with what actually occurred during its largest wave of SARS-CoV-2, which would have likely overwhelmed the health-care system. Indirect effects and long-term benefits of the programme, which could be substantial, were not included in these estimates and warrant future research.“

        1. Sorry, I’m not trying to say that the vaccination made no difference in deaths and serious disease. I’m just saying that it doesn’t stop the virus circulating and is not going to end covid as something we have to deal with.
          Yes, with less vaccination, hospitals might have been worse off (though I have no faith in the modeling used at this point). I absolutely reject that as a justification for imposing on everyone’s life and liberty.

          1. “would have likely”
            “which could be”

            Lots of weasel words in there.

          2. It is not going away. We are going to find ways to live with it. I am advocating that vaccines are the best tool we have now to achieve that. So we agree on some points.

            I am also bothering because there is a lot of disinformation out there.

            1. Like pushing the 50% death rate for serois covid cases which leads 40% of democrats to think they will be hospitalized with a 50% chance if they get covid?

              Imagine reporting death rate for serious cases of any disease. Lol. Youre pushing propaganda.

              1. Did I mention politics? Covid really doesn’t care.

            2. YOU are disinformation. Also, cleanup on aisle three.

        2. Keyword likely. The same models that predicted 4 million american deaths. You are approaching white knight levels of scientific understanding.

      2. I have seen estimates for transmission vary widely so don’t know what to make of that.

        1. My real point is that it isn’t going to do what a lot of people (including me) had hoped it might, which is reduce transmission enough that an effective herd immunity can be achieved. It helps prevent people from developing serious illness. That’s a good reason for a person to take it. It’s not a good reason to go around worrying about whether or not other people have. If you are so worried about your risk that you want to avoid the unvaccinated, then you should also avoid the vaccinated because their chance of being infectious is not all that much lower (and the chance of any random non-symptomatic person being infectious is very low to begin with).

    3. The threshold is only 80% in California. Also, why are we taking medical advice from lawyers?

    4. You’ll make a good slave.

    5. If the epidemiologists would have listened to the economists this whole thing would have worked out better. The former has conception of competing goods, the impact of incentives, risk tolerances, etc. Also, they’re all crazy germophobes, every one of them.

    6. Oh hey another idiot who hasn’t figured out the virus is seasonal, even with us seasonality theorists predicting virus activity since last summer.

      I bet you’ll be STUNNED when the winter wave rolls through the vaxxed states just the same as the unvaxxed ones.

    7. We can end restrictions when we get over 90% vaccination rate.

      Haha, like anyone actually believes this shit. Funny how it went from 60% to 90% in the span of a season.

    8. Also why are we taking medical advice from an economist?

      He gives zero medical advice. Arguably, he gives public health advice. I’d recommend you get some advice on how to read from an English teacher. This should not be construed as medical advice.

    9. So far the Ds have tried to indefinitely extend every temporary Covid measure. We are completely done caring what they think.

    10. We have more vaccinations than ever, yet more died under SleepyJoe than Trump.

    11. That’s why I’m voting Republican. Liberty over your craven fearmongering.

      And hey, dumbass, the vaccine doesn’t prevent infection, mutation or transmission. Telling you again, and again, and again…

  13. Is this guy Stossel stupid or what? Denmark has 80% of it’s population above 12 fully vaccinated. We have 57% and are 2 weeks removed from overflowing ICUs and thousands of dead a day.

    Tell you friends to help out and get their f..hing shot. It’ll help the economy too.

    1. Netherlands
      22% of peak and rising

      102 infections per 100K people reported last 7 days

      Updated 9:10 AM PDT

      The average number of new infections reported in Netherlands has been increasing for 12 days straight
      COVID-19 infections are increasing in Netherlands, with 2,537 new infections reported on average each day. That’s 22% of the peak — the highest daily average reported on December 21.

      Stop getting your news from Rachel Maddow and Brian Sthelter.

      1. I get my news from 2 docs who have been treating the sad but idiotic covid patients clogging and dying in the local ICUs. Any one of them would love to have the Netherland’s “problem”.

        1. I get my news from 2 docs who have been treating the sad but idiotic covid patients clogging and dying in the local ICUs.

          Jesus, Joe Fuckhead, if you’re going to write fan fiction, at least make it believeable.

          1. I have no trouble believing him. His “doctors” are no doubt working in conditions they helped create. It’s a self inflicted wound. They fired 1.4 million healthcare workers at the start of the pandemic, and are now in the process of laying off tens of thousands more.

            This pandemic has been the greatest scientific own-goal in human history.

            1. Diane, you and the other anti-vaxx primitives created the conditions that filled our red state ICUs. My doc clients just treat them and try to comfort their families.

              1. What you and your ilk have consistently failed to understand is that these situations are a fait accompli and always have been. You’re crying for the government to prevent a problem that it simply cannot prevent, and in the process are gladly trading your own autonomy for a mild bit of reassurance.

                All this shit doesn’t end until you and people who share your mentality stop panicking over every new case, every uptick in hospitalizations, and every death with some COVID involvement.

              2. My doc clients just treat them and try to comfort their families.

                Is that before or after they kill them by sticking a pipe down their throat and letting them die of sepsis?

              3. Weird. It is blue state cases on the rise now dummy. Again. Seasonality.

            2. They didn’t fire them at the beginning. That was when they were cancelling elective procedures. So they put those workers on leave until they could start up again which they did.

              1. Echo don’t purposely mean to reply to all these posts of yours but two folks that I know that were respiratory therapists were let go at the beginning of the pandemic due to budgetary constraints from lock-down. They weren’t going to wait around to see if things upticked and got other jobs.

              2. They didn’t fire them at the beginning

                Are you fucking kidding me? There’s article after article from last spring and early summer talking about the removal of hospital staff.

                1. He makes up shit to suit his narrative.

                  1. He admitted upthread that he’s nothing more than a janitor at the hospital. So all he’s doing is projecting his own life on to the entire country.

                2. Yes but they can collect unemployment if they are fired. They can also look for work elsewhere. If they are put on unpaid leave they can’t do that. They would have to quit and can’t get unemployment. That happened to someone in my family. The hospital can’t afford paid leave.

                  They run on thin margins. If the colonoscopy team is shut down they can’t afford to pay them. So they would lay them off with the understanding that they would be welcome back when they started back up.

                  They can and most were hired back after the crisis period which was short.

                  Two in my family lost jobs to Covid.

            3. I just had a conversation with a doctor who works in a teaching hospital. At the start he was working in a ward where they did not have Covid patients. Rules were lax and in teaching hospitals people work very closely. One of the residents became a super spreader and infected close to half of the medical staff including himself. He is vaxxed now.

              1. I think you ought to put every one of your anecdotes in a book, and sell it to every other chicken little.
                And then fuck off and die.

              2. Anyone that uses the term ‘super spreader’ should be kicked in the crotch. Repeatedly.

        2. Would you like me to link you to some highly respected physicians, medical professionals, epidemiologists and other scientists with expertise in this area who disagree with you vehemently?

          1. Diane, I don’t have an opinion to disagree with – I’m not a doctor. Any doctor or physician who claims the vaccines are not effective at keeping people from catching Covid or from dying from it is not highly respected on the subject by other doctors and that’s all that matters.

            1. I think 96% of doctors are vaccinated.

              1. That is correct according to an AMA survey of several months ago.

              2. Not a chance that 96% are vaccinated. You couldn’t get 96% to accept $1M dollars with no strings attached. I’m sure the rate is very high, but there is no way that many of them weren’t lying to the pollster.

        3. “I get my news from 2 docs”

          Appeal to authority.

          1. His girlfriend in Canada thinks he’s just the handsomest, smartest hoser this side of Saskatoon.

          2. Appeal to two trusted high character docs at a world class hospital who are indeed, authorities.

            1. Needz moar adjectives.

              1. OK, good friends and clients, smart, experienced – one is 50, the other 62 – at a university teaching hospital, and each spoke to me for 15-30 minutes about their experiences, and one is married to an epidemiologist doc who is quoted on Covid.. Both were emotionally moved and drained by the experience which was often hopeless. You don’t want to catch Covid and end up in the hospital, even if you live. It could be a on a ventilator or you could catch “long covid”. You also don’t want your spouse to get in that position.

                Get you shots.

                1. Fuck off and die, Joe.

                2. How many patients have these “smart, experienced” doctors killed by intubating them?

                3. You don’t want to catch Covid and end up in the hospital, even if you live.

                  Yeah, because the doctors will probably try to kill you out of spite if you didn’t take the Holy Coof Juice.

            2. “trusted”

              By you. Appeal to authority.

        4. I get my news from 2 docs who have been treating the sad but idiotic covid patients clogging and dying in the local ICUs.

          ^Shit that didn’t happen.

          1. It happened mad. I don’t lie, even on the internet.

            1. “I don’t lie”

              Everyone does. Those who say they don’t do it the most.

              1. You’re in a chat room with two admins. They both have separate logout buttons. One button actually logs you out, but the other one spams you with popup ads for viagra and campaign donation requests. One admin says the other is a fake and that his logout button actually logs you out. The other is a former Navy Seal Medic Multi-Millionaire Day Trader that hangs out with a team of ICU trauma surgeons who are also supermodels and he says the other button is a fake, his button really logs you out. Do you really need one question to figure out which of the two of them is a lying dumbass?

            2. “I don’t lie, even on the internet.”

              He’s a parody guys. That explains why he uses the David Chipman +100 to Charisma Senator Acknowledging Identity Charm. His face and the dick sucker he calls a mouth is probably contorted irl too, just like David Chipman’s. Hell it probably is David Chipman. Too bad we can’t withdraw his presence from Reason.

            3. Ahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa…!

            4. “On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.”

          2. Joe just makes stuff up.

        5. So a few personal anecdotes. That’s totally real news and better than actual data.

        6. Doctors are shit at statistics.

    2. Denmark has 80% of it’s population above 12 fully vaccinated.

      Checked the case numbers for Singapore lately?

      Also, LOL at “overflowing ICUs”–guess those hospitals shouldn’t have cut off their nose to spite their face last year by laying off staff, and are reducing those staffs even further now.

      Where are all the replacement workers going to come from, Joe Fuckhead?

    3. Singapore also removed all restrictions, 80% vaccinated.

      Rising cases and deaths test Singapore’s pivot to treat Covid as endemic

      A surge in Covid cases — the vast majority of which have no or mild symptoms — prompted Singapore’s government to tighten social-distancing measures starting this week.
      Many of those cases were detected because Singapore is “doing a lot of surveillance for Covid” through testing, said Ashley St. John, associate professor at Duke-NUS Medical School.
      Paul Tambyah, chairman of the opposition Singapore Democratic party and an infectious diseases specialist, said the government appeared “hesitant” in shifting away from a “zero Covid” strategy.

      What cracks me up about people like you is, you’re in line for the gas chamber, and you’re screaming at everyone to get vaccinated because if they do, they can stop the gas chambers. It’s just THAT simple. Yet there’s evidence all around us that if we got 50% vaccinated, 60% vaccinated, 80% vaccinated, 95% vaccinated, that the gas chambers won’t stop. They simply… won’t stop.

      They’re lying to you, and you’ve accepted the lie and are merely the biggest cheerleader for it.

      1. Diane, what part of “A surge in Covid cases — the vast majority of which have no or mild symptoms ” did you not understand?

        Yeah, the gas chamber is definitely next. I think shock treatment is for you, but hopefully no lobotomy.

        1. The vast majority of people in the US who have covid have light symptoms halfwit.

      2. Gas chamber is a specious and offensive comparison. I posted criteria for serious covid. At that point the patient is gasping for air. Fighting to get more oxygen but they can’t. Their lungs are filling up with gunk from the viral infection. Measures to help from oxygen masks to external ventilation can fail. Then comes intubation and life support. 50% chance of survival at that point.

        That is what we are talking about.

        1. Echo, yes horrible as my doc friends told me. One early on – he’s ER – mentioned the lung crud as something he had not seen the likes of before. A few months ago a study showed that about 20% of survivors return visit to the doc with lung, heart, or brain problems that may prove chronic.

          1. This is what it looks like on CT. All of that white stuff in the lungs is the crud.

            It is like nothing else. It doesn’t act like a bacterial pneumonia or fluid.

            1. You’re confirming what he told me then. For an ER doc who’s being doing it for 20 years to be surprised is noteworthy.

              1. And he’s head of the ER.

                1. He also has a large penis, barely fits in your mouth.

              2. Yes and it is why they had to find new strategies to treat it.

            2. This is what it looks like on CT.

              Wow. So, not just a janitor who hangs out in the OR or ICU with a mop, but also has access to PHI and can interpret CT results.

              You and Friday have become a “shit that didn’t happen” breeder reactor.

              1. At this point, it should dawn on the both of you that even if you’re no-shit trauma surgeons, by caching your ‘wisdom’ in stupid lies you’re doing more to discredit your profession and the practice of medicine than you are to bolstering any given cause you may have.

                But it probably won’t.

              2. You can learn a lot if you keep your ears open.

                Janitor is a noble profession, I keep those floors clean and disinfected so everyone is safer.

              3. I also make the coffee and can do a pretty good latte so the nurses and residents let me ask questions.

        2. Why are we talking about that? I’m here to promote human freedom. I’m sure what you are saying about serious covid cases is true.

          1. He’s using a small number of cases to justify his fear and acceptance of government actions.

          2. I have said many times that I am against government mandates and lockdowns as well. So we are on the same page there.

        3. Echospinner is the closest thing to a nazi that posts here, which is precisely why it takes offense to the accurate observation of parallels.
          Echospinner will volunteer to be janitor at a camp as soon as they get started up.
          Echospinner is truly evil, and a virus.

          1. Second closest. Misek is an actual Nazi.

    4. Derp. Here comes Joe Friday to completely mess up elementary facts while casting aspersions on others’ judgement. Thanks for coming.

      “Fractions are hard!” – Joe Friday

  14. Are such rules necessary?

    Not for public health reasons, but absolutely necessary to maintain fascist control of the general populace.

  15. I guess the answer is Stossel has enough stupid followers to make it pay.

    1. The county I live in has the highest vaccination rates in the country. yet we labor under some of the most draconian restrictions.

      There is LITERALLY an inverse proportion to vaccination rates and restrictions on freedom.

      The more people get vaccinated, the more locked down we are.

      King County is first large county in nation to pass 70% vaccination rate for residents 12+

      1. Diane conveniently forgets we lived in a world where the CDC and President were advising a national loosening up of masks and distance rules until the Delta variant hit and the anti-vaxx movement halted national progress. The results could not be more clear as over 90% of our Covid deaths were among non-vaccinated and the red state ICUs filled up with them.

        Now Diane wants to talk about symptomless outbreaks in highly urban Singapore and Stossel the fool thinks we in anyway resemble Denmark and it’s response to Covid. They’re 1/2 the problem and the Delta variant half has peaked.

        1. Young, healthy people do not need the vaxx.

          1. Joe will pivot to vaxxing your pets next if they get to the next threshold.

          2. Some healthy people – including runners – have caught it. A good friend who is middle aged and in good health and physical is just getting over a nasty case, and of course the healthy can spread it, and more likely to if not vaccinated (because you have to catch it to spread it and you are less likely to if vaccinated.).

            Better safe then sorry.

            1. “Better safe then sorry.”

              First, jam a rusty garden rake up you ass and have someone spin it for you.
              Then, make you family proud; fuck off and die.

            2. That’s a fine recommendation. Now mind your own damn business.

            3. Some healthy people have died of aspirin. Ban aspirin.

            4. Some healthy people have died of the vaccine too dummy.

            5. So… Not taking an unknown, untested new medical technology on faith would be “better safe than sorry,” yes?

      2. Why any of you engage this steaming pile of lefty shit is a wonder to me.
        Here’s the proper response to every post the asshole Joe has ever made:
        Fuck off and die, Joe.

        1. Why does anyone do anything?
          He makes arguments that are not uncommon in the world. I think it’s worth countering them for the benefit of others who may be reading. And for my own amusement.

    2. “I guess the answer is Stossel has enough stupid followers to make it pay.”

      Asshole Joe thought that was clever.
      Fuck off and die, Joe.

  16. I guess the answer is Stossel has enough stupid followers to make it pay.

    I guess the issue is Joe Fuckhead can’t support his own arguments.

    The funniest part is your fellow lefty is claiming that we need to have 90% of the population injected with the Holy Coof Juice, when you directly cited Denmark lifting restrictions with 80%. Can’t you shitlibs make up your minds?

    1. They’ll make up their minds when their masters tell them what to think.

      1. Unicorn, I am not smart enough to make medical decisions or judge if a flying machine will make it off the ground and across the country safely, but I have experts – you do too – to tell me those things. That’s how advanced and scientific societies prosper. I suggest you take advantage of the system. It’s called civilization.

        1. “but I have experts – you do too – to tell me those things”

          Appeal to authority. Being an “expert” does not mean they can’t be wrong. And there are other “experts” that disagree with them.

          Also appeal to consequence.

        2. Then why the fuck are you trying to tell people what medical decisions they should make? You have assessed what you consider expert advice and come to your conclusion. Let others do the same.

        3. Barbie, you’re not smart. Just stop there and shut the fuck up.

      2. Extremely very highly qualified word class masters.

    2. I subscribe to Stossel and check out cafehayek daily.

      What does that make me?

      1. A drunk attention whore.

  17. We still haven’t jabbed all the babies. We have to keep making things inconvenient for parents, so they will jab their babies to end the restrictions.

  18. CA is going to lift the mask requirements under two or three very specific conditions next week; Chron this morning devotes a good of page one to the question “What Are The New Dangers”?
    None.

  19. I mean, 11 and under can’t get the vaccine.

    But hey- fuck everyone else right? Seems to be the mantra anymore.

    1. Fuck off and die, shitdinners.

    2. I mean, 11 and under can’t get the vaccine.

      You mean it’s not actually “safe and effective”?

      1. “Effective” is a roving goalpost that will always be out of reach. Because political parties.

      2. They are running trials now down to age 2. They are using a smaller dose of course. They had more volunteers than they needed.

    3. Go snort sloppy Joe’s colon.

    4. 11 and under are also not at danger from COVID. The unseasonal RSV outbreak is putting far more kids into hospitals and because public health officials are distracted with COVID in kids, they aren’t doing a good job of putting out information that parents need to know about RSV.

      1. Also, the “f*** everyone else” attitude is by no means exclusive to the anti-lockdown side.

        Only 2% of the developing world has been vaccinated. There are 80 year olds desperate to get the shot, whose country has the infrastructure in place to give him/her the shot, and who can’t get it. But, yeah, let’s force a 13 year old to get a vaccine he/she doesn’t want and who is at 1/10,000th the risk, because screw the developing world, I guess.

        There should be NO vaccine mandates until the world has enough vaccine for everyone who wants it. As a beneficial side effect, that would have given the hesitant more time to get comfortable with the vaccine before beating them over the head. The fact that some mandates were coming even before the vaccine was approved was beyond absurd. And announcing a mandate on most workers within a month of approval just feeds into the rushed feeling that is the primary source of fear.

  20. A year and a half ago we turned over the entire economy to panicked slimy of shit like shitdinner, JFree, echoasshole and the lot, when the object of their panic turned out to be far less dangerous than even the most mild projections.
    We are now far under the average annual flu damage rates, just beginning to suffer for the idiocy of allowing them to run the economy, and we’re still giving these assholes the time of day?
    There is but one appropriate response to each and every one of the shit-bags:
    FUCK OFF AND DIE.

  21. Mr. Stossell,

    I would agree with you if the US were 80%+ vaccinated like Denmark. We don’t have even a single state at 80% vaccination.

    1. What difference does that make?

      1. Sure but what has happened in Israel is not what you think. I have already posted about it too many times with references. In any case the delta wave is just about over there. We are on the downslope as well.

        1. Now do Harvard. 95% vaccinated, moved to online only after they got sick anyway. Sweden, Iceland, Portugal… Israel. All highly vaccinated, who comprise the majority of cases and deaths.

          Go clean something, Shitspinner.

      2. Also the total vaccination rate in Israel is just above ours at 62% double dose so they have hit a plateau like we have. The remarkable thing that happened was the speed of their mass vaccination program early on. This was because of their healthcare system, efficient government work, and the deal with Pfizer.

        It also means that because of early rollout the overall protection rate is wearing down although there is still a high level of protection against serious disease and death.

        They are doing boosters now.

    2. Stossell addressed the point: if you are vaccinated, you are protected, so you don’t have to worry about whether others are. From a public health point of view, ~85% of folks likely to require hospital resources have been vaccinated. It does not matter how many under 40 year olds are or are not vaccinated, their odds of ending up in the hospital are tiny regardless.

      1. Since you are interested in the subject check out this analysis using Israeli data. It is just one chart and very informative.

        https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated

        1. The two charts on the bottom tell the story

          1. Nice to have some actual figures, but the story was already well known: being vaccinated or young is highly protective against serious illness.

            1. Actually, I take that back a little bit. Their claims of the efficacy of the unboosted vaccine in seniors is far below most other reports I have seen. I am not sure what accounts for this.

              1. Ah… Found it! I think. The report says that Israel was not fully vaccinating its prior infected. To the degree that the unvaccinated population contains a higher amount of prior infected than the vaccinated population, it would distort the VE of the vaccine lower. Strictly comparing non-prior infected vaccinated vs unvaccinated would likely show 90+% effectiveness across all age ranges. Maybe even 95+%.

  22. Denmark also has a high full vaccination rate and universal healthcare.
    The US has politicians turned anti-vaxxer spreading the antivax crap as real science to keep our rates low overall. And we bankrupt people as a healthcare solution, when those costs are pushed off on hospitals it hurts them.
    Get our vaccination rates up, watch the hospitalizations go down. Then you can compare.

    1. Now do fatties.

    2. Whatever we think of it, and I don’t think it will work here, universal health care has some advantages. The reason a lot of the data we are seeing comes from Israel and the UK because they have these large central databases. Our system is fragmented so it is harder to get reliable numbers.

    3. What anti-vax politicians? I can’t think of a single one against the vaccine. Sure, there is probably a mayor somewhere you can find if you search hard enough, but they aren’t driving the conversation. The current president, former president, and every governor encourages vaccination.

  23. Covid restrictions were never needed, nor justified.
    The existence of a vaccine is nice, but irrelevant to the fundamental issue.
    This is war on the American people, and you can see some of your enemies posting here.
    Realize the fucking state of play or we’re all doomed.

  24. The lock-downs were far more destructive than helpful. We have vaccines which people should be allowed to make their own individual decision of getting the jab or not.

    Forcing people to get the jab is an act of violence and flat out authoritarian. Other people should have as much of a right to make a poor decision as you do.

    The point is that science is NEVER decided, but rather evolving. There are not case studies regarding long term effects, because it has only been a short amount of time for the vaccine and Covid-19.

    To pretend otherwise is ANTI-SCIENCE. The CDC, FDA, NIH, corporate media, RNC and DNC are all claiming to follow the science, but are in reality following they are all following the POLITICS.

    At this point there are far more unknown aspects than known aspects. The experts are not experts because there are no experts on the unknown. There can be educated guesses and statistically probabilities, but they simply don’t know, don’t have enough data and do not know if the data points they are using are relevant or are missing more relevant data points.

    1. I think most of the country is past lock downs.

      Has anyone forced you to get a vaccine you don’t want?

      1. Disengenuous fuckstick, go lick a petri dish and get some culture.

    2. As far as science you are correct that it is always evolving. We still use medical advances to treat and prevent disease.

      Politics and social media disinformation is what is driving a lot of distrust of these vaccines.

      1. Politics and social media disinformation is what is driving a lot of distrust of these vaccines.

        Field results are reinforcing it. High vax areas/countries have seen spikes in “cases” proportional to unvaxxed areas after adjusting for prior spread. They may not know the science behind it, but they can read a chart just fine.

        The biggest structural problems for vaccine uptake at this point is the test-trace-panic mentality we’re locked into, and constantly keeping vax status as a front burner issue. People don’t want to back down from their priors.

        1. People get their information from media and statements from politicians. We have created a lot of armchair experts in a very complicated area. There are good reasons why people are flipping out.

          It was natural that with something new recommendations would change as new information became available. This caused confusion and panic. The government just made things worse.

          Also people are stubborn in fixed belief systems. Once an idea sets in then any evidence to the contrary is dismissed.

    3. As to experts a real expert knows what they don’t know and will tell you that upfront. When you are dealing with nature you will never know it all. They were talking about herd immunity not too long ago. I never believed it. It is possible to decrease the severity of disease and outbreaks when they occur however.

  25. Another thing I have found which confuses people is the observation that if you are vaccinated against Covid and get it anyway you will have the same viral load. That is true but the way vaccines work is your immune system is charged up. It has seen the invader before and can mount a defense much quicker than if it has not.

    I follow what is coming out from Israel closely. If you stratify by age and percent vaccinated the efficacy of vaccinated in preventing severe disease ranges From 81% if you are over 80 to 100% for 20-29 years old.

    https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are

    1. Sorry for the double link

    2. The article explains why the misperception that the numbers from Israel prove the vaccine doesn’t work is a myth.

    3. Are many people saying that Israel proves that the vaccines don’t work?
      My takeaway, and I think a lot of other people’s as well, is that it shows that they are effective in reducing severe disease, but not in significantly reducing infections or transmissions. Which seems to me to negate the only possible reason that could justify mandating the vaccines for anyone.
      Yet we still have people going around accusing the unvaccinated of killing people, after we have seen that the vaccinated are also capable of spreading infection (and are tested less often and likely are less careful about it).

      1. There are some here. Quite a few actually. So I am just trying to combat disinformation with reliable sources that people can read for themselves.

        Someone above said “now do Israel” which they think has proven that the vaccines don’t work. That is not true as this article demonstrates.

        I am not arguing with you. I think we are basically on the same page. If you get it you can transmit it. The 60% number people are throwing around refers to hospitalized patients and this article shows that statistically the vaccinated are highly protected from that as we both agree.

  26. If you get it you can transmit. If you don’t you don’t. It is without question that at least early after the vaccine there is a high rate of protection. Now we know that the two dose regimen wanes over time. It has not dropped to zero. The boosters they are giving are half a dose and they are seeing a strong response.

  27. Where we do not agree is that the vaccine does significantly reduce cases and hence transmission. it compares all known cases and vaccine status. I picked it at random. Virginia.

    They had a 6.5 higher rate of cases unvaccinated compared to vaccinated. So it does reduce the number of virus machines infecting others.
    https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/coronavirus/covid-19-in-virginia/covid-19-cases-by-vaccination-status

    Anybody can get Covid at any age and pass it on to others and become a virus factory.

  28. I am making a good salary online from home .I’ve made 97,999 dollar’s so for the last 5 months working online and I’m a full time student .DEc I’m using an online business opportunity. I’m just so happy that I found out about it.

    For more detail … http://thefreedomjobnetwork.unaux.com/

  29. How odd…..more covid infections are appearing in those who have been given the needle than those who haven’t. In some places they represent 75% of all new infections.
    Yet, we’re told how effective the injection is. Maybe it’s effective in quite a different manner than we were told.
    You go ahead and take the shot. It’s your choice but do not attempt to force it on me.

Please to post comments