Coronavirus

Study: As Delta Proliferates, Vaccines Are Less Effective at Preventing Infection but Still Sharply Reduce That Risk

The results also indicate that vaccinated people infected by delta have lower viral loads and less severe symptoms than unvaccinated people.

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A new British preprint study adds to the evidence that COVID-19 vaccines are less effective at preventing infection by the especially contagious delta variant of the coronavirus, although they still sharply reduce that risk. The study also indicates that vaccinated people infected by delta tend to have lower viral loads and less severe symptoms than unvaccinated people.

The study presents data from the two latest rounds of REACT-1, a survey that questions and tests a random, nationally representative sample of people in England. Round 12, which included 108,911 participants, was conducted from May 20 to June 7. Round 13, which included 98,233 participants, was conducted from June 24 to July 12. Overall, 0.63 percent of participants tested positive for COVID-19 in Round 13, up from 0.15 percent in Round 12, which is consistent with the surge in new cases that the U.K. saw between late May and mid-July. Delta accounted for 78 percent of infections in Round 12 and 100 percent in Round 13.

Among participants who reported that they had been fully vaccinated, 0.4 percent tested positive in Round 13, up from 0.07 percent in Round 12. The corresponding figures for unvaccinated people were 1.21 percent and 0.24 percent, respectively.

When they assessed vaccine effectiveness, the researchers limited their analysis to participants ages 18 to 64, based on the assumption that vaccination among older people is associated with more cautious behavior, which would independently reduce the risk of infection. In Round 13, they estimated, self-reported vaccination reduced the risk of infection by 49 percent, down from 64 percent in Round 12. For symptomatic infections, the risk reductions were 59 percent and 83 percent, respectively.

The researchers, most of whom are affiliated with Imperial College London, did separate calculations for participants who agreed to allow verification of their vaccination status. Here the risk reductions for all infections were higher: 62 percent in Round 13, down from 75 percent in Round 12. But the authors note the possibility of "selection bias for consent to linkage": The share of participants who agreed to verification fell from 87 percent in Round 12 to 62 percent in Round 13.

The REACT-1 researchers also looked at the infection rate among Round 13 participants who reported contact with a confirmed COVID-19 carrier. It was 3.84 percent for fully vaccinated people, compared to 7.23 percent for unvaccinated people.

The effectiveness rates for Round 13 of REACT-1 are substantially lower than those seen in studies involving earlier iterations of the coronavirus, which generally found that mRNA vaccines reduced the risk of infection by 86 percent to 99 percent. They are also lower than the effectiveness rates in several earlier studies conducted after delta's emergence. "These estimates are lower than some others," the authors note, "but consistent with more recent data from Israel."

The fact that risk reductions were higher when the analysis was limited to symptomatic infections is consistent with other data indicating that vaccines remain effective at preventing severe cases, notwithstanding the delta variant. A recent study from Singapore found that patients infected by delta had fewer symptoms and shorter illnesses. In the United States, CNN recently calculated based on data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), "less than 0.004% of fully vaccinated people had a breakthrough case that led to hospitalization and less than 0.001% of fully vaccinated people died from a breakthrough Covid-19 case."

The authors of the REACT-1 study note that "estimates of effectiveness against serious outcomes of greater than 90% have been reported" for people who received two doses of the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccines. "This is in keeping with our observation of a weakening of the association between infections and hospitalisations and deaths from mid-February to early April 2021 when Alpha variant was dominant," they say. "However, in our more recent data (since mid-April 2021), infections and hospitalisations began to re-converge, potentially reflecting the increased prevalence and severity of Delta compared with Alpha, a changing age mix of severe cases, and possible waning of protection."

That last point is worth keeping in mind, since the trends that generally have been attributed to the proliferation of delta also might be explained by waning vaccine effectiveness. Robert Wachter, chair of the Department of Medicine at the University of California at San Francisco, raised that possibility in an interview with The Washington Post last week. "If we're seeing more breakthroughs, is it just because the virus is better and the vaccines don't hold up quite as well, or is the efficacy of the vaccines beginning to wane, independent of the delta?" Wachter asked. "This is three-dimensional chess. There's a hundred things going on at the same time."

The question of whether vaccine booster shots are prudent remains controversial. Pfizer has been promoting the idea, and last week Israel began offering booster shots to vaccinated people older than 60. But so far the CDC and the Food and Drug Administration are unpersuaded. Anthony Fauci, the Biden administration's top COVID-19 adviser, told CNN last month that "we don't need" boosters "right now," but "there's a lot of work going on to examine this in real time to see if we might need a boost."

Based on cycle threshold (Ct) values from the positive PCR tests, the REACT-1 researchers found that vaccinated people had lower viral loads than unvaccinated people, which is relevant in assessing the likelihood that vaccinated carriers will transmit the virus. That finding contrasts with the results that the CDC reported in its study of a July outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, where Ct values for vaccinated and unvaccinated people infected by the delta variant were similar.

Since the CDC's study was based on cases that came to its attention, the authors noted, "asymptomatic breakthrough infections might be underrepresented because of detection bias." The REACT-1 study, by contrast, was based on a random sample of the population, so its viral-load findings are probably more representative. The Singapore study found that viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated COVID-19 patients infected by delta were initially similar but declined faster in the vaccinated group.

The effectiveness of vaccines in the U.K.—where more than 70 percent of adults have been fully vaccinated, including more than 90 percent of those 65 or older—is reflected in daily COVID-19 deaths, which have fallen precipitously since late January. While the seven-day average of newly identified cases rose 24-fold between May 5 and July 20, the seven-day average of daily deaths—82 as of yesterday, per Worldometer, down from more than 1,200 in late January—has risen much less dramatically since May. As Reason's Elizabeth Nolan Brown notes, the current case fatality rate (deaths as a percentage of confirmed infections) in the U.K. is about one-tenth the rate seen earlier in the pandemic, when the alpha variant predominated.

The REACT-1 researchers note that "participants aged between 5 and 24 years," who are less likely to be vaccinated than older adults but also far less likely to die from COVID-19, "were over-represented among infected people in our study, contributing 50% of infections…while only representing 25% of the population of England aged 5 years or above." They add that "the highest prevalence of infection was among 12 to 24 year olds," consistent with their conclusion that "the third wave of infections in England" has been driven "primarily by the Delta variant in younger, unvaccinated people."

In the United States—where half of the population has been fully vaccinated, including the vast majority of Americans 65 or older—the recent increase in COVID-19 deaths likewise has been much smaller than the surge in cases. Newly identified COVID-19 cases in the U.K. have fallen sharply since July 20, and Fauci this week told MedPage Today he expects the U.S. will see a similar "turnaround" as the vaccination rate rises.

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  1. Fauci needs to answer for his crimes.

    1. Yes, and so to many of the tyrannical democrats who destroyed people’s lives while shielding their politically connected allies (I’m looking at you, Newsom)

      1. How many Democrats do you plan to murder esteve7?

        1. I plan to vote them out, and try to convince others of the same. If I were a landlord, I would sue.

          1. “I plan to vote them out” – ERetardo

            Hahahahah… You don’t realize that the Republican party is out of power forever.

            You are delusional.

            1. 23 states controlled by republicans, 15 by democrats.

              1. “23 states controlled by republicans, 15 by democrats.”

                23 Republican governors in power due to vote rigging and gerrymandering.

                No, thinking, moral person votes Republican.

                1. How does a governor win an election due to gerrymandering?

                  1. perhaps there are more thinking people than the bright mind of Vendicar can fathom, though I’m thinking that would not have to be a large figure.

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                  2. I’m just grateful the new guy outed himself as an idiot troll so quickly.

                    1. It’s Jeff trying out new socks again.

                  3. He’s a little special.

                2. Holy crap.

          2. Are you talking about the eviction ban? Are you aware it started with an executive order from Republican President Donald Trump.

            1. And has been ruled unconstitutional by The Supreme Court during Biden’s administration. And the Biden administration is ignoring the Supreme Court and doing it anyway.

              Seems weird you don’t care about that. Wait, my mistake. It’s not weird, you’re a lefty Biden cultist.

            2. It was a mistake, and unconstitutional. Unlike you, I can admit when people I generally support are wrong and make mistakes.

        2. Where did this response come from? Asking Fauci to pay for his crimes has nothing to do with murdering Democrats.

          1. “Asking Fauci to pay for his crimes” – is like asking you to stop molesting children.

            When will you ever stop?

            1. $0.50?

              1. A lot of them lately. Biden is flailing so they hired a bunch more.

          2. No, you didn’t. Although reducing the democrat population would be good for humanity.

        3. It isn’t murder when it’s self defense. And progs are an existential, ever present threat to Americans.

          1. this is good. Day of extermination will come. Will their “advanced degrees” save them? Who will protect?

        4. Probably most pols will end up gmurdered if they continue down current path. Won’t take long for war to come and left won’t win. They control no food production or transportation, occupy cities they can’t defend, and make up very little of soldier class and police. Worse, there will be asymmetric rules of engagement. Regime’s families will be targets for dissidents but dissident families will be safe. When this happens will cops and soldiers stay loyal to dour cia neoliberal schoolmarms?

          In before “muh drones”. Lol there will be no drones. Imagine a 10 story apartment building with a small team of dissidents controlling it. You think government will drone this building?

          Ask yourself this, when was last time U.S. won a war? Have they even won one this century? In before WW2. USSR won that war with 20 million Soviet civilians and soldiers lining road to Berlin.

          Days are numbered. Fireworks and fallout will be fun.

      2. Sept 14

        1. “Sept 14” – JustaBill

          Is that the new date? It was Aug 15.

          What happened? Did some Republican realize they have dung for brains?

    2. Am guessing that burning someone in a wicker man is considered cruel and unusual. At least that is how the Celts druid up.

      1. They prefer to do it in liquor stores these days

      2. “burning someone in a wicker man”

        Yes, a fitting end to Trump.

        1. Hey Vendicard – you must be the life of the part. Maybe you should check on your hate meter. Seems to be pretty high.

          1. “life of the part” – ScumCracker

            You and I will never cross paths at a party. I don’t go to cock fights or gay bars.

            1. Oh, you had step up your game for that one. I bet you feel really smart. Your momma must love you. Are you still feeding off of her teats? Momma, momma, that feels so good.

              1. “I bet you feel really smart.” – ScumCracker

                No, you are just really, really, stupid.

                The world is laughing at you.

                1. Maybe he can join you in gerrymandering a governor office. Right KAR?

            2. “I don’t go to cock fights or gay bars.”

              I feel like there is a marketing opportunity for a combo joint somewhere in there

              1. FairyFights?

                1. plus you know it totally goes to gay bars nttawrt

            3. Still in the closet? You should get some, sconce from Tony on that shit. He’s a huge homo, like you.

    3. “Fauci needs to answer for his crimes.” – Retard

      These would be the fantasy crimes you have imagineered?

      You be a stupid boy.

      1. So now you call people retards. Hmmm, maybe you should get out more often. The term retard is no longer allowed in your woke society.

        1. People yell at me for calling myself a retard. They hate that word.

          1. I don’t get bent out of shape about it, but don’t use the word myself since my cousin has Downs and her sisters are very sensitive about it.

            1. I’ve probably mentioned it before, but one of the most fascinating things about English is this repeating cycle of coming up with a word to describe people who have a hard time with normal things. For a while they used idiot, but then the average person started calling everybody an idiot. Then they moved to handicapped, until the same thing happened again. Now it’s happened to retarded.

              The moral of the story is — whatever word you choose for the medical term, average people will use it as an insult.

              1. Fairlight?, I don’t see anything inherently objectionable about the word retard/ed, but I know people with Downs family members don’t like it, so I use other words.

                On the other hand, the word “faggot” really needs to come back into use. Not as a reference to homosexuality, but to passive-aggressive totalitarians, in association with the fasces for which fascism was named.

                1. Bundle of sticks.

            2. Down’s? But we’re talking about progs here. Who are all retards. Not sure how Down’s factors in. As they’re much smarter than progs.

          2. Haha! That’s funny, I don’t care who you are, that’s funny.

            1. Piss off.

        2. “So now you call people retards.” – ScumCracker

          Just the retards, retard.

          1. Focus on what’s in the mirror progtard. You truly are a man among gods here.

    4. Agree…we still don’t know if the virus was genetically modified as a gain of function experiment which was banned in the US. And honestly this all shows how the biological “experts” and epidemlogists are simply not that smart and have trouble with math and real science. Hell most public health folks don’t have a hard science degree. We need a 1950’s view of this..get some highly regarded physicists and chemists to review the facts and data coming in and make some recommendations for policy makers..get Fauci out of the look and that CDC wokeness…

    5. Nevertheless, even if this was the case, a handful of studies show that the AstraZeneca, Moderna, Pfizer, and Johnson & Johnson vaccines work against preventing severe COVID-19 caused by the Delta variant. Although the vaccines offer less protection against milder, symptomatic illness caused by Delta, further studies support the claim that fully vaccinated people retain significant protection against the Delta variant.

      https://www.camella.com.ph/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-delta-variant/

  2. …., “less than 0.004% of fully vaccinated people had a breakthrough case that led to hospitalization and less than 0.001% of fully vaccinated people died from a breakthrough Covid-19 case.”
    Yet they still want you to strap an old tee shirt across your face.

    1. Tell me progs don’t have religion.

      This is literally a religious symbol, and a mask is a way or virtue signalling how good of a person you are.

      If you are vaccinated and still wearing a mask, you are quite possibly dumber than the person not getting the vaccine in the first place. You are anti-vaccine if you think you still need this after.

      I think most realize this, they just want the power grab and are evil. The ones who truly believe they still need a mask… man the media and dems have done a number on them

      1. “Tell me progs don’t have religion.” – ERetard

        You said you were going to be wearing an old t-shirt over you face like a good little inbred Country Bumpkin.

        Now remember… Whey your are dying of suffocation because your lungs have been destroyed by Covid… Your God of infinite power loves you.

        LOL!

        1. You know, you may be laughing, and you are the only one. You just aren’t funny.

          1. “you may be laughing,” – ScumCracker

            Ya, me and the rest of the world.

            AmeriKKKa is dying of Republican disease, and you are so stupid you can’t even figure that out.

            Hohohohohohohohohoho…..

            1. I thought you said Republicans are a permanently out-of-power party? How can the country be dying from a non-entity?

              You really should at least try to stay consistent with your grade school level trolling.

              1. He knows we recognize his middle school-level sophistry. He’s trying to piss us off. It’s how he ruins threads.

        2. Who’s sock puppet are you?

          1. This has to be the Squirrel.

            1. Yeah. The Reichsquirreler called on his army of EinSquirrelGruppen to infest the comments with his nonsense.

            2. It might be KAR. He’s a hamfisted crass moron.

              1. Its KAR. Same insults.

          2. You should get out of California. You are stinking up the place.

            1. You should commit suicide, for similar reasons.

      2. “If you are vaccinated and still wearing a mask, you are quite possibly dumber than the person not getting the vaccine in the first place” – ERetard

        Masks for everyone until everyone is doubly vaccinated.

        You poor baby. I cry for you.

        LOL!

        1. do you intentionally suck at reading comprehension?

          Where have I ever advocated masking? I would wait but you won’t find any.

          I think at this point you’re just arguing with yourself

    2. This is a total of 6,400 people out of 160 million (160MM * .004%). That is what we would be talking about in the US. A total of 6,400 going to the hospital, while the rest of us get on with our lives.

      Fuck locking down. NFW.

      1. At this point these people are either evil or they have completely lost it.

        If you think society should stop because one person got a disease a little worse than the flu, and everyone can get a vaccine for it if they want to, then you are a lunatic. The media have completely done a number on you if you are scared for Covid and you are vaccinated.

        1. 613,000 dead Americans.

          “If you think society should stop because one person got a disease a little worse than the flu,” – Eyeore

          And more mass death to come.

          The world is laughing at the incompetence that is AmeriKKKa.

          1. If you are in the US, then the world has something to laugh about.

            1. How amusing it is that AmeriKKKans are so poor and so stupd that they wear soiled underwear over their faces rather than masks.

              So stupid you can’t even govern yourselves.

              Hahahahahahahahah…. The world is laughing…

              Even your longevity stats are in decline and have been for years.

              Hahahahahahahahahah

              1. This is some amazing information. I’m surprised that Reasonhasn’t made you the editor, published your fine writing and even named the magazine after you. Keep up the top shelf posts.

              2. Serious questions for you. Does this kind of trolling make you happy? Do you sit at your keyboard and type out this garbage and smile, thinking to yourself how great it sounds?

                Cause seriously, if I spent the time writing out the responses that you do, I would be monumentally embarrassed with myself.

        2. Half of democrats think the hospitalization rate for covid is 50% they think covid dead is in the millions.

      2. “6,400 people” – Vomiter

        Ya, three times the number that died on 911.

        Hahahahahahahahahah………

        You be a stupid boy.

    3. “Yet they still want you to strap an old tee shirt across your face.|- Retard

      A mask would be a better idea, but if a tea shirt is all you ignorant hicks have then go for it.

      1. Hey, take some valium. You have loads of hate you need to suppress. I guess you’re just a master baiter.

        1. It’s not even a fifty center.
          If Brock is giving it more than a nickel per post, he getting ripped off.

          1. Probably not smart enough to figure out the master baiting.

      2. An old T-Shirt is all most people use. It’s not like they’re handing out properly-fitted N95’s, retard.

        1. “An old T-Shirt is all most people use.” – TheClap

          Well, that is silly cause the CDC recommends that you wear some of your soiled underwear.

          The world is laughing at the sheer incompetence that is AmeriKKKa.

          Unfit for existence, and soon to be gone.
          Praise God.

          1. Your nicknames are lame, VD.

  3. What sort of journalist is Sullum? He used math and appears to understand it. Doesn’t he know that true journalism demands a purely emotional approach?

    1. He saves the purely emotional, completely ignorant of math perspective for his articles defending fraudulent elections

      1. For those articles he tends to just mail it in.

        1. And run the same ones a couple of times

      2. “fradulent elections” – Nardz

        Fantasy land….

  4. The study also indicates that vaccinated people infected by delta tend to have lower viral loads and less severe symptoms than unvaccinated people.

    Good for them.

    Now when do we stop the march toward a totalitarian state? Somehow I get the sense that the answer to that question has nothing to do with any vaccine or virus.

    1. Correct.

      Dems want power, that’s all they care about. No principles, just power. The constitution is an obstacle to everything they want. They just got away with something the President would be impeached for in a sane world, just stealing everyone’s private property, and the dumbass leftists clap like seals and the republicans don’t do a damn thing.

    2. “Now when do we stop the march toward a totalitarian state?”

      Why? The majority of people dying are Republicans.

      We need more of that.

      1. ^

        This is the sound a fed makes when their child porn stings dry up faster than Chris Chan’s mom’s vagina.

        1. good trolls are few & far between anymore.

          1. Definitely getting more and more boring. I didn’t think it could get more lame than KARen’s Mormon schtick, but here’s VD.

            1. the concept is played bc the practice is decades old now. only true artists need apply

        2. That dog can’t hunt.

      2. You know, I think we should authorize a retroactive abortion for you.

        1. Abortions just send babies to God’s heavenly paradise sooner.

          No thinking, moral person opposes that.

          1. Well, if that’s what you believe, save yourself some time. Give yourself a shortcut to paradise.

            1. “Give yourself a shortcut to paradise.” – ScumBuncher

              I don’t share the teachings of your nonsense religion.

              1. You just did VD.

        2. I muted it. All it does is threadshit.

          1. It was so bad, I muted. And that’s the first person I have ever mutes. Not even Kirkland or Squirrel yet. That’s how shit this troll is.

  5. Vaccines work to protect you and others, not just from contracting something, but from lessening it’s impact or chance of spreading. You should get them. This isn’t hard. I personally know Democrats, Libertarians, and Republicans that have all gotten the vaccine. It should not be a partisan issue.

    Vaccines never were a partisan issue until trendy urbanite liberals in Marin County and Southern California stopped vaccinating their kids, and now there have been outbreaks of previously irradiated diseases like whooping cough, because parents are too dumb and illiterate to protect their kids.

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/growing/school-vaccinations.html

    My dumbass cousin says he won’t be vaccinating his 1 year old, because “we lived for thousands of years without vaccines, why do we need them now?” as if you’re so fucking dumb you don’t realize a majority of people died before they were five years old for the vast majority of history.

    Or is giving your kid polio, the measles, chicken pox, or whooping cough, desirable?

    1. Yea, covid is totes the same as polio!

      1. So do you support all those vaccines for kids on the CDC link up there (do you vaccinate your kids?), and you just don’t want the Covid one?

        Because a friend is a preschool teacher at a private school in LA, and parents keep trying to bring their kids in with zero vaccines at all, and get pretty pissed when they are told to find another school

        1. I don’t have kids, so the vaccination regimen isn’t something I ever really think about.
          From my limited knowledge about it, polio vaccines seem like a good idea.
          I’ll have to examine the issue more closely, but I suspect, like with prescription drugs, recommended vaccinations have probably gone a bit overboard. I imagine some are wise, some are superfluous. This particular vaccine is, I think, an unjustifiable risk for the vast majority of children, who are in about 0% danger from the virus.
          Personally, I’m not big on vaccines for myself because my immune system has always been quite strong and I’m confident in its ability to defend and adapt based on experience.

          1. This is why this debate gets so outrageous. Too much focus on “factoids”. The problem here is that at the national level there will never be a consensus on facts, as the stakes are so high anyone can make a study to suit their needs. The nation needs to focus on the moral framework and let people work out the facts they want to live with.

            Morally speaking no one owes you their effort to protect you from a natural pathogen. That includes cleaning your house under compulsion or sticking needles in their arms.

            If a private school expects you to vaccinate before kids are allowed, that is their right. Most schools I have worked with in so cal didn’t give a shit because one or two kids being unvaccinated represents no risk. Most only started giving a shit when this became yet another culture war issue.

            Nevertheless I would be ecstatic if the country rendered decisions like this down to such local levels. Because that is where facts matter the most where particulars can be compared to known facts.

            1. “Morally speaking no one owes you their effort to protect you from a natural pathogen.”

              There lies societal breakdown. Of course, we owe each other getting vaccinated to prevent the spread of disease.

              1. If you think people not getting vaccinated is societal breakdown, you’re sure as hell not going to be able to survive what will happen when you start forcibly injecting unwilling people with drugs

              2. No you are exactly wrong. We owe each other the basic human right of not initiating force on others. Demanding- coercing- someone to act on your behalf, whether to fight your wars, pick your crops, or become a human shield to bullets or viruses is absolutely, positively a violation of their rights. That you think society cannot survive without forcing people to stick needles in their arms makes you a brother in arms with the people who believe society cannot survive if we allow people to stick needles in their arms.

                1. I did not mention forcing anyone to do anything.

                  One formulation of libertarianism is the NAP. That’s a little simplistic thinking, but basically a good way to define the limits of government and coercion.

                  But it doesn’t define how people should behave ethically by their own choice to have a good society. Ethically, you should voluntarily get vaccinated for the benefit of your fellow humans.

                  1. Ethically, white Mike should slit his wrists and bleed out for the benefit of our fellow humans.

                    1. Even better, walking into a room full of his fellow progs with a suicide vest on. Really giving back.

                  2. In most cases I agree with your clarified stance. The issue is that given the common meaning of “should” by those who support vaccines means “even against ones will” it is best that you always clarify.

                    But there is some differences between things with historical records (polio, smallpox etc) and something new. While I do think it is very likely to prove safe in the long run, literally no one at this time can say that it IS safe long term (3-5 years). And the fact that people can not accept other people’s skepticism or worry based on global ignorance of the future is what is causing the most problems.

                    Yes… there are some who think the vax was created by Pelosi and China to microchip us. But there are also people who don’t like putting unknown substances in their body, or are worried about conflicts with their other medical issues, etc. That these complaints are lumped in with the crazies and dismissed out of a desire for total control of others is a serious problem that needs to be addressed head on.

        2. First, the vaccines in pediatrics are for diseases that killed large numbers of children throughout early childhood or led to life altering handicaps. Covid 19 does not pose those same risks to kids. I could add “that we know of,” but the same is true of the vaccine, so it washes out.

          Second, the vaccines used for these childhood diseases are 30-50 years old with proven track records of efficacy over many, many years. New vaccines don’t always work. Consider the different types of Polio vaccines that were used. They developed a new one to lessen the burden on children, but it wasn’t as effective at the time. They started using it as a booster, instead – because it works as one, but not as an initial vaccine. The 2009-2011 DTAP booster was ineffective at stopping pertussis. They had to stop using it because it led to asymptomatic viral spread to infants.

          Experimental treatment with a first of its kind vaccine should not be necessary in a population barely affected by the disease the vaccine is meant to protect against.

          1. “First, the vaccines in pediatrics are for diseases that killed large numbers of children throughout early childhood or led to life altering handicaps.”

            Not all of them. Chickenpox, rubella (which no longer exists in the US) mumps, and rotavirus are self limiting and rarely cause complications.

            The American Academy of Pediatrics is including Influenza and Covid, which is only approved starting age 12 at this time, in their list of recommended vaccines but they are not required for school. HPV which is given to adolescents is also recommended but not required.

      2. “Yea, covid is totes the same as polio!” – NoNards

        You speekitie engrish goodlie like da flinglies.

        1. VD doesn’t know what slang is.

    2. Vaccines work to protect you and others …

      Except when they kill you, maim you, or end up not working at all most of the time — like the flu vaccine, for example. The entire point of respecting other people’s right to choose medical treatment is that you do not have a monopoly on truth and have no right to tell people what they should or should not inject into their bodies, no matter how righteous you feel yourself to be.

      1. Except those cases are incredibly rare. Don’t go to the grocery store today because you might get in an accident and die. And don’t take tylenol because you could get a brain clot.

        Do you vaccinate your kids? Or if you don’t have kids, would you vaccinate them against Polio, Whooping Cough, etc? Is it just the Covid / Flu shots you don’t like, or vaccines in general?

        1. Rarer than kids dying of covid?

          1. Forget Covid for one second. Do you believe in Vaccinations and would Vaccinate your kid in general? Or are you just against all vaccinations period?

            Would you not vaccinate your children for any or all of these
            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/growing/school-vaccinations.html

            1. “Forget the facts we are actually talking about and engage with this other hypothetical I brought up to distract from my rapidly sinking argument ….”

              1. Do you believe in vaccines at all? Is it just the Covid and/or Flu vaccine you do not like, and you would still get others?

                It’s a simple question.

                1. I beat sea lions to death. But you already knew that.

                  1. They’re really good paired with a bottle of prog tears.

            2. Why would we forget the one shot we’re actually talking about?

            3. No, we wk t forget KungFlu. We are talking about a vaccine that the public is effectively beta testing. Not a vaccine with a decades long track record. And it’s a vaccination for something that affects people very differently relative to age.

              If you want the vaccine, get it. If you don’t, don’t. I think getting it is a good decision for some people and not for others. But in the end, it’s their decision. Not yours, mine, or the government’s what other people do.

              Any move to force people to take it should be stopped by any means necessary.

              1. “Any move to force people to take it should be stopped by any means necessary.”
                – Agreed

                Never said you must take it, just that you should. There’s next to nothing in terms of cost. Maybe unless you’re 6 years old and don’t like needles because of the ouchie

                1. This is completely false.

                2. Or have autoimmune issues. Or are at risk for blood clots. Or…

                  In most cases, reward>risk for getting the C19 vax. I agree. But that isn’t a universal truth with this vax *especially* because the risks of not being vaxed are fairly low, all things considered. And the risk of the vax are greater among some people. That tilts things more in favor of not getting the vax than in cases of other vaccines (even though in most cases getting the vax still comes out the winner… just not as often as with other vaccines).

            4. the covid vaccines increased a heat problem on children from 1 on 100k to 1 on 4k in trials.

              So far only 350ish kids have died with covid, with because nearly all had life threatening comorbidities.

              The developer of mRNA said not to give those vaccines to children.

              Why do you want to give children vaccines that do more harm?

              1. Heart not heat*

            5. The medical community has much to answer to with regards to vaccines.

              The bottom line is that there is a massive explosion in auto-immune diseases in the US. As my doctor has been happy to explain to me many times with my four kids vaccines work by ‘stimulating’ the immune system. Auto-immune diseases that were quite rare, as well as allergies have exploded. The most likely reason for this is that when I was a kid, early 80s, we got a couple of vaccinations when we were two and a few before kindergarten. No my three year old son is being asked to have over 60 before kindergarten. My friends in health care are required to have annual flu vaccines and now untested COVID vaccines. I see their health suffer.

              I urge people to not be so credulous of a media/health/billionaire (and of course political as they are the same people) bunch of ‘information’ that you do not stand back and look at who the winners and losers are in the COVID catastrophe. It was definitely big business, Amazon, tech companies that want employees to use their products and stay out of the office etc. that have benefited. A very easy way to continue to consolidate power is to divide and conquer over this vaccination quibble. And the pro and con vaccine sets are making it very easy for the real people effected to sit in their homes, hooked up. Let’s move on.

              1. YOU’RE JUST AFRAID OF NEEDLES!!!!!

                —esteve7

        2. LOL

          From “if it saves just one life” to “it’s just one life!” in the blink of an eye.

          That is how I and everyone else here knows your humanitarian preening is a ton of fly infested horseshit.

          1. Would you vaccinate your children for anything, or would you not vaccinate them at all?

            1. “Look over here!”

              Get lost.

            2. Seriously, is it just the Covid/Flu shot you don’t like because it’s a minor disease, and you still would get others for you or your kids? Or are you just completely against any and all vaccines?

              1. How do you feel about transgender kids?

                1. Those don’t exist. Except in the minds of deranged progs.

                2. Hopefully nobody is feeling about trans kids.

              2. 615,000 dead AmeriKKKan so far.
                “it’s a minor disease” – esteve7

                200,000 more dead AmeriKKKans to follow.

                The world is laughing.

                1. How many die of the flu and pneumonia every year?

                  Yeah, people die due to illness. News at 11.

      2. “Except when they kill you, maim you, or end up not working at all most of the time — like the flu vaccine, for example.” – GigerTard

        In other words you are a pathetic coward.

        Thanks for confirming that.

        1. LIke a coworker who won’t take her kid to the amusement park (he wants to go), because “Roller Coasters are dangerous”

          People are so bad at basic risk analysis. No better than those wanting to lock down all of society because a few people got sick

          1. People are so bad at basic risk analysis

            Says the guy that compared COVID to Polio …

            1. I am trying to gauge if you believe in vaccines at all because no one has answered that question.

              I can understand if you get vaccines for more severe illnesses and just choose not to get Covid or the Flu shot, as those are not.

              But the impression I’m getting is that you wouldn’t get any and you would not give you kid any, like my cousin.

              1. Fuck off, Jeff.

                1. I’m going to have to assume you are just anti-all vaccines then since you keep deflecting and can’t answer a basic question.

                  1. See above response.

                    1. Wow, you wouldn’t even vaccinate your kids against serious diseases. Not the sniffles, but like full blown measles, whooping cough, polio, ….

                      if you really wouldn’t do that for yourself or your kids, then you have some major hangup that a professional needs to talk with you about

                    2. How many dicks can you fit in your mouth? Like, forget about vaccines for a second. Seriously, I want to know. How many dicks?

                    3. Where the fuck are you getting off declaring people anti vax who never made that statement?

                      Are you that full of shit? Or realize that your argument is that weak?

                  2. Weird how you say others are deflecting when you keep deflecting to non covid vaccines when talking about covid vaccines.

                    1. I’m trying to see if you are only against the covid vaccine or just all of them in general.

                      At least one person has said other vaccines ok, they just don’t want the covid one, which is fair.

                      But the impression I’m getting from the others is all vaccines are bad and not worth it because of some anti-evidence based nonsense.

                    2. Whats this me. I’ve never been anti vax dumbass. I’ve never claimed i was anywhere. Again youre being dishonest beyond belief. I am for most vaccines. But I also have read the science on the new mRNA science and children. Youre deflecting because you got exposed.

                      Youre honestly pulling sophist bullshit instead of admitting your ignorance.

                      Now let’s try this. Is the ckvid vaccine exactly the same as the polio vaccine? That was your bullshit comparison.

                      Youre going full jeff here.

                    3. who the hell is jeff?

                      Seriously what is your threshold for thinking the vaccine is safe? How much more time and how many millions more need to take it successfully?

                    4. You sure seem like you’re Jeff. You just asked a question that’s already been addressed.

                      You should wander back into the shallow end of the pool.

              2. It’s funny when anti-vaxxers are scared to actually admit they are anti-vaxxers.

                1. It’s like deep down inside they know, and can’t bring themselves to admit it.

                  Or maybe they are just a-scared-of-needles

                  1. The unfortunate thing is that I think a lot of right wingers allowed themselves to be painted into a corner here. Trump was a master at this. He knew everyone hated him so he would say something knowing that the left would take the opposite ground which was tactically harder to defend. The left has done the same thing here. They realize there is a big problem with their own minority voters not getting vaccinated and so they have done everything possible to brand themselves as the party that believes in vaccinating so that reactionaries will not agree. Sadly when you frame yourself as not the enemy you still let the enemy define you.

                    1. Youre doing the same thing as others here Overt. Youre getting distracted by their initial misdirection and claiming the others are avoiding the argument.

                      It is sophistry and you fell for it.

                      The discussion is on the ckvid vaccine, especially in kids.

                      You fell for “but what about polio” when a) polio is a long term non mRNA vaccine and b) has a recorded risk profile for children.

                      Don’t fall for the sophist deflection bullshit.

                    2. The moron started with a rant about COVID vaccines and when people smacked him down he moved onto other vaccines because they are exactly identical or something like that … then he pulled then anti-vaxx accusations while begging people to talk about anything but COVID.

                      Just another dishonest lefty shit paid to vomit nonsense all of these comments.

                    3. man do you have to lie about everything I said, or are you just that bad at reading comprehension?

                      I’m trying to get you to state your position on vaccines in general. Do you vaccinate your kids, do you believe in vaccinations. Is it just Covid you don’t want.

                      That you keep lying about me just shows how much of a sack of shit you are. You are being incredibly dishonest and are a complete nut

                    4. You keep asking stupid questions that have already been addressed. Just because you don’t like an answer, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been answered Lying Jeffy.

                    5. Jesse-

                      I have fallen for nothing. The right should be arguing that forcing people to vaccinate is a violation of basic human rights. Full. Stop.

                      Instead the left has baited people on the right into debating whether the vaccine is safe or whether it is too risky for a specific demographic. Those are, and always will be, arguments that come down to specific facts on the ground. You find a kid who had an alergic reaction, they find a kid who contracted the coof and killed grandma.

                      Seriously, JesseAz the left is baiting the right into arguing about whether the vaccine is safe. They are baiting the right into taking the mantle of Anti-Vaxxer. But you don’t need to do that. Whether a vaccine is safe or not is of no consequence.

                      IT IS WRONG FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO STICK NEEDLES IN THEIR ARMS.

                      THERE IS NO MORAL OBLIGATION FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO VACCINATE THEMSELVES TO PROTECT A STRANGER. I respect the hell out of a kid who volunteers to go off to war on behalf of America. But I don’t feel kids have a moral obligation. The moral obligation that the Left is trying to put on americans in order to get them to vaccinate is not so different on principle.

                  2. That’s all I can figure. They truly know it’s a hyperbolic and hysteric position, but they just like the narrative too much to no let it go.

                    1. Wow… you engage in dishonest argumentation then claim someone’s refusals to wade in it as proof of your victory.

                      Is your argument covid vaccines are exactly the same as a polio vaccine?

                    2. no one ever said it is, you dishonest hack.

                    3. Then why keep bringing up vaccines in general, in a discussion about mRNA vaccines? You realize they’re a completely different right?

                2. Nobody here is claiming to be an anti vaxxer. We are discussing covid vaccines and mandates. And likewise the risk vs benefit especially in children. Why do some of you feel compelled to lie?

                  1. because that’s not what we are talking about.

                    1. Yes. That is what the original topic is about. You even brought up the 6 year old getting an owner showing competent ignorant to the actual risks associated with children in the current trials.

                      Don’t back out now.

                    2. 6 year old getting an owie showing complete ignorance*

                    3. I’m saying you are like a 6 year old with an irrational fear of needles as your basis for being anti-vax.

                    4. If you got fear of a needle in the arm from anyone’s comments you’re pretty fucking stupid.

                      Or a disingenuous piece of shit. Probably both.

                3. Being skeptical of an entirely novel mRNA vaccine which is swiftly being mandated by government does not make a person an anti-vaxxer, but a pro-liberty skeptic rightfully reticent to take medicines without a sufficient scientific foundation establishing their (1) efficacy and (2) safety.

                  This is precisely the reason why ass clown esteve7 immediately pivoted to other vaccines.

                  “Oh, you don’t support the death penalty? Why? Because you love criminals? Admit it! It’s because you LOVE crime! CRIME-LOVER!”

                  Same shit, different moron.

                  1. what would be your threshold to not being skeptical about the vaccine? How much more time and how many millions more need to have taken it successfully?

                    I didn’t pivot to other vaccines. I’m trying to determine if you are against all vaccines or just this particular one. I understand the skepticism for this one, but some of the other commentators are using this as a crutch because they are against all vaccines

                    1. “I’m trying to determine if you are against all vaccines”

                      Why? Debate the topic at hand, and the arguments themselves. You’re trying to discredit the people involved based on a different topic Jeff.

                    2. This is why I am skeptical.

                      https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03219-y

                      I am also skeptical, and will remain skeptical, because data about complications and side effects are routinely suppressed by the government and media and there is a draconian, concerted push by government actors to force people to take the vaccine while painting any and all opposition as something fast approaching criminal behavior and requiring punishment.

                      That and the fact that the CDC cannot get its story straight on a damn fucking thing.

                    3. Come on Geiger. Clearly you’re just scared of needles. That’s the only logical conclusion.

                    4. Seriously though, the fact that they don’t even bother refuting any evidence about side effects of the vaccine, or even minimize them. They’re just pretending they don’t exist at all.

    3. Or is giving your kid polio, the measles, chicken pox, or whooping cough, desirable?

      When I was young our parents took us to chicken pox and measles parties. We were intentionally exposed to get sick and gain immunity.

      Likely safer than some mercury laden pharmaceutical.

      1. “Likely safer than some mercury laden pharmaceutical.”
        That has no basis in fact; there is zero evidence to support that.

        So again, would you not vaccinate your children against polio, diptheria, whooping cough, measles, etc. Are you against the Covid shot or just all vaccines in general?

        https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/growing/school-vaccinations.html

        1. I vaccinated my children, because pox parties are now considered abuse.

          Wait…natural immunity is worse for a person than a vaccine? Evidence please.

          1. /crickets

            1. Yes, that was your response to his question. You shouldn’t brag about it Jeff.

              1. It does sound a lot like Pedo Jeffy. I wonder if it supports letting pedophiles from foreign countries run wild here too.

          2. that’s just some luddite nonsense to think because it’s natural it’s somehow better for you. Or, any person who buys Organic Gluten free whatever and shops at whole foods

            1. Funny how the insults come out when an individual chooses not to agree with the narrative.

              BTW – I raise most of my food, so I don’t shop at whole foods for plastic wrapped garbage.

              1. ‘Esteve’ is another threadshitter. Sounds a lot like Jeffy too.

              2. No, the insult came out because you are purposefully deflecting from his question. Which you ironically did again.

                1. Idaho Bob answered the question, “I vaccinated my children.” That isn’t deflection.

                  1. No, that just means he vaccinated his kids. It doesn’t actually answer the question.

                    1. He was asked if he would vaccinate his kids. He answered and expanded on that answer. And then the insults came. And later white knighting for the one making the insults.

                    2. Lol. God damn you are fucking burying yourself.

                    3. esteve7
                      August.5.2021 at 4:54 pm

                      So again, would you not vaccinate your children against polio, diptheria, whooping cough, measles, etc.

                      Idaho Bob
                      August.5.2021 at 5:14 pm
                      Flag Comment Mute User
                      I vaccinated my children

                      Reading is hard.

                2. And IS is here to defend intentional deflections of a sophist. Weird.

            2. God damn you argue like a fucking child.

              Full jeff.

              1. Don’t think anyone ever has. Given how fat, weak and annoying he is. He’s probably been beaten up a lot his whole life. Obviously not enough. Or he would learn not to be such a shitweasel.

          3. Vaccines trigger natural immunity. There is no artificial immunity.

            1. You heard it here first! Vaccines are natural.

              1. For people like Dee, unquestionably listening to TOP MEN is natural.

            2. Getting sick also triggers natural immunity. Why do we need the vaccine?

      2. Sorry Retard, but mercury isn’t used in vaccines.

        “Likely safer than some mercury laden pharmaceutical.” – Idaho Slob

        They are used in your tooth fillings though. Probably explains your near zero IQ.

        1. Lucky for you, you don’t have any teeth left.

      3. Given the rate of complications from measles, claiming the vaccine is less safe is idiotic.

        1. “claiming the vaccine is less safe is idiotic.” – Syd

          AmeriKKKa is the land of Idiocy.

      4. “When I was young our parents took us to chicken pox and measles parties. We were intentionally exposed to get sick and gain immunity.” – IdahoSlob

        Hillbilly logic. Nothing protects ya better from the clap then getting the clap.

        LOL,,, You must have an IQ under 20.

        1. I remember that with chicken pox. You were sure to get it so mom would take you over to Jimmies to play for a few hours and plan it when she could stay home for a few weeks. Plus getting it as an adult is much worse.

          That problem is solved now that we have the vaccine. Now I need another one for shingles since the virus never really leaves you.

          1. I had chicken pox at 15. It put me down for two and a half weeks of misery. Getting it before puberty is a much better deal.

      5. Thimerosal (Mercury based) adjuvant was taken out of childhood vaccines in 2001. None of the Covid vaccines use it.

    4. the vaccine isn’t approved for 1 year olds.

      1. I am talking about vaccines in general. My cousin with the 1 year old is not giving his kid any vaccines at all, and is planning to move out of state before his kid is required to.

        I guess it’s his right to give his kid polio or whooping cough

        1. Those things would not be a concern if we kept the illegals out.

          1. Lol the measles outbreak we had a few years ago was caused by tourists and cases here were almost all unvaccinated.

        2. how is going to ‘give’ his kid either of those diseases? I have no quarrel with vaccines that have stood up for decades in combating pretty nasty diseases. Covid is not one of those diseases, at least not for kids, and the vaccine for it is nowhere near the same league at the MMR or DTP.

          1. thank you for acting giving an intelligent response instead of just going rabid

            I can get skepticism or reluctance for the Covid vaccine, but not for everything else. Thinking your kid is better off to get whooping cough or diphtheria because ‘natural immune system’, ‘big pharma’, ‘mercury in the vaccines’ yadda yadda is some batshit crazy belief system.

            1. So you responded above with bullshit cries of people being anti vaxxers because they understand the risks to kids due to mRNA vaccines.

              Lol. God damn what a clown.

              1. I never once advocated kids taking the Covid vaccine

                You know your insults would mean a little more if you actually knew what you were talking about.

                You guys shouting mRNA over and over again is the same as the left shouting January 6th over and over

                1. Are you autistic?

                  1. Yes.
                    Too many vaccines.

            2. KungFlu fax for children is child abuse. This is nothing like the standard vaccination given to children.

        3. That is not the same as giving them the disease.

          For that to happen he has to have it or have access to samples of it and then purposefully expose them to the point they contract it.

          Not wearing a seat belt is not the same as choosing to crash into the wall.

    5. Man, today is full of new sock puppets trolling.

      Which 50 center has their hand in you?

    6. The first vaccine a baby gets is for hep b, an std. there is no legitimate reason to give a baby the hep b vaccine unless the mother has hep b, which most don’t. It’s ok to question things authorities tell you.

      1. This. I have argued about this one with others. There’s no point in it until your kid starts frequenting druggie playgrounds and rifling through garbage cans.

    7. The freakout against the vaccines has been a comical thing to watch. You know you live in a great country and have a good life when you can get righteously indignant that people suggest you take life saving medication.

      1. Many , many people died so we could have the freedom to choose.

        1. I know. That doesn’t take away from the comical overreaction to life saving medication.

          That’s what’s great about this country, you’re free to choose. And I’m free to laugh at the freakout people who choose “no” go through to apparently justify their “no” decision.

          But we are a tremendously overreactive society. So I guess it falls right in line with that.

          1. Your overreaction to covid deaths in children to the point you applaud government unending ones life with lockdowns and vaccine passports is far more comical.

            Go fuck yourself.

            1. What squirrel is doing here is coping.
              He’s instinctively obedient to “authority” (and possibly a fantasy for whom the virus does represent a deadly threat, albeit still small) but likes to think of himself as independent, so he tries to cover up his natural conformity by posing as amused and “smarter” than the reactionary rubes he imagines. He does this because people who aren’t as obedient to and trusting of “authority” threaten his self conceit, so he posts to soothe his troubled ego.

              1. *fatass, not fantasy

      2. It hasn’t been a suggestion. It is being mandated in some places in said country with the requirement to show papers.

        1. I have no problem being against mandated vaccination. But that doesn’t take away from the comicality of people freaking out about taking the vaccine. Two things can be true at once.

          1. Who is freaking out about taking it? There has been considerable pushback against denial of services based on not providing papers.

            1. I suggest you actually read the comments here from people who don’t want to take the vaccine.

              1. I have. Many of them. And haven’t seen anyone freaking out about not being vaccinated. Maybe I missed an outlier. Have seen a few strawmen and ad hominems from folks that can’t handle people making the personal decision not to get themselves vaccinated.

                1. then you missed the thread last night

                  I have never advocated masking, mandatory vaccines, or denial of service, yet that is constantly being thrown back at me. I am saying vaccines work and their benefits vastly outweigh the costs.

                  The reasoning behind not taking vaccines (just regular ones, not even the Covid specific one), is flawed, illogical, and devoid of reason. You have a right to be dumb and not take the medicine, but I can still call you dumb for doing so

                  1. So post the damn comments you think justifies your bullshit in this thread.

                  2. I have had the vaccines I need. I don’t see every post and may have missed a flame war but have read and posted on most COVID related articles in the past month.
                    You can call me whatever you want. I don’t give a rat’s ass.

                  3. “The reasoning behind not taking vaccines (just regular ones, not even the Covid specific one)”

                    Who are you talking about? Specific examples please, not voices in your head.

      3. My life isn’t in jeopardy. Your statement is stupid.

    8. So you list polio, measles, chicken pox, and whooping cough.

      One of those was eradicated in the United States because of vaccination, one of them is often purposely spread between children to make sure they get the disease early (and only ‘saves’ 100 lives a year), and two of them are routinely vaccinated against.

      In short, they are not at all equivalent.

      And as for COVID, how many kids have contracted it let alone died from it? The answer is pretty much zero, so to vaccinate your kid with it you’d have to have some kind of justification that has little to do with their odds of getting sick or mortality. Ironically it’s sort of the same with chicken pox, in that plenty of people do not bother with that vaccination because the odd’s of mortality or grave illness are close to zero.

      The absolute nature of the question as stated, as in it’s all or nothing, is a false question. There are answers that don’t revolve around absolute faith and absolute doubt.

      1. I have never said you should vaccinate your kid against Covid. You, as an adult, should want the vaccine, and all of the stated reasons against it are illogical and devoid of reason. It is your right to be wrong, but you are still wrong.

        Moving to Chicken Pox —- That is a horrible fucking disease to get. I got it before there was a vaccine and it was miserable, but my little sister got the vaccine so she never did.

        How dumb do you have to be to believe the only benefit of getting a vaccine isn’t to die? You get the shot because the disease sucks and this will likely prevent you from getting it. You want to subject your kids to that because of your own ignorance? Are you just anti-medicine in general? Do you ever take Tylenol or advil for a headache?

        The benefits to the chicken pox vaccine vastly outweigh any negatives by orders of magnitude. Same with nearly every other vaccine. To ignore that and say “meh I’m not going to die” is a dumb statement if there ever was one.

        1. esteve7
          August.5.2021 at 7:39 pm
          Flag Comment Mute User
          “Any move to force people to take it should be stopped by any means necessary.”
          – Agreed

          Never said you must take it, just that you should. There’s next to nothing in terms of cost. Maybe unless you’re 6 years old and don’t like needles because of the ouchie

          Fucking lying shit.

          1. Proof or STFU. Everything I said was accurate

        2. “You, as an adult, should want the vaccine,”

          Why?
          The disease isn’t serious for the vast majority who contract it, and many people already have.
          Why should an adult want to take an experimental gene therapy to possibly prevent/reduce illness from a virus they’ve already had and/or is little to no threat to them?

          1. to decrease your chance of contracting it or lessen the severity if you do get it. That’s why you get any vaccine.

            I don’t buy that it is experimental gene therapy. A year of testing and hundreds of millions of people taking it are good enough for me.

            If that is not good enough for you, what is your threshold where you would consider the vaccine safe?

            1. “to decrease your chance of contracting it or lessen the severity if you do get it. That’s why you get any vaccine”

              And if I’m not concerned with contracting it or its severity if I do? If I’ve already had it?

              You evidently think that it’s something I, and everyone else, should prioritize avoiding. I happen to disagree.

              I don’t know what my threshold for considering it safe would be, and I don’t necessarily consider it unsafe now.

              What is your threshold for skepticism of the people and institutions pushing the vaccine in such an unprecedented, coordinated effort?

              1. It’s becoming clear to me that esteve7 has a low IQ and doesn’t understand about half the things being posted here.

                1. It does sound a lot like Pedo Jeffy, doesn’t it?

              2. I get the flu shot because the flu sucks and it’s better to not get it or spread it to others. Same with Covid. Just because you may have already had it doesn’t mean you can get it again.

                At this point with all the evidence and trials and millions of people taking it, your skepticism is not warranted. Seriously, what more do you want?

                1. Yes, you go on trusting Daddy Gov, the CDC, the WHO, Bill Gates, the MSM, and the rest of the left, who are so desperate that everyone get vaxed, without question.
                  They could never be wrong and would never lie, and haven’t spent 18 months doing that almost exclusively, right?
                  If I get sick (which, by the way, I haven’t been at all since January 2020) with cold/flu/covid, I’ll do what I’ve always done: stay home, rest, and recover.
                  Are you such a hypochondriac that you can’t fathom someone taking such an approach?
                  WTF is going to happen to you if something catastrophic in the world occurs, and you can no longer get your yearly/monthly vax? Is that going to just be a death sentence?

    9. When it’s been properly tested and I can sue, I will trust it just as much as any other vaccine.

      Poorly, resisting anything that won’t kill or permanently impair me. We don’t need another annual pharma subsidy booster.

  6. Get ready for monthly booster shots for the rest of your lives, folks.

    1. Duh.

      Functioning immune systems are just a conspiracy theory.

      1. Please read a basic biology book

        1. The one where they explain how COVID is the same as Polio? I’ll pass.

          1. Biology isn’t for Geiger Claptrap.

            It doesn’t apply to his fantasy universe.

            1. Fuck off, SQRSLY.

              1. On a scale of SqrlsOne to Ken, those sock puppet posts of Vendi are a One.

        2. You first. Your knowledge of biological science appears embarrassingly bad.

    2. “Get ready for monthly booster shots for the rest of your lives, folks.” = NardRetard

      Is that what your brain tumor is telling you?

      LOL!

      1. Biff Tannen levels of incisive wit. Kind of hope it’s not a sock.

        1. it’s definitely boring zzzzzz

        2. Says the quarter whit.

  7. vaccines are less effective at preventing infection”

    Vaccines never prevent infection they only help the body fight infection. if this is the new excuse to control people then there will never be a normal again.

  8. case against gains steam.

  9. I don’t care if people don’t get vaccinated. It’s their choice. If you are vaccinated, why do you care?

    1. I don’t care how many people are murdered. It’s their choice. If you aren’t murdered then why do you care? – KookAMUnga

      1. Being murdered is not a choice. Murder is the ultimate violation of personal sovereignty. Let me ‘splain it to you Lucy. Do you even understand the concept of liberty? I think there is something seriously wrong with you. Almost every true libertarian will agree that getting vaccinated is a personal choice. Being murdered is not. Why are you even on a site called Reason?

        1. “Being murdered is not a choice.”

          Sure it is. Just hide in your bathroom.

          When inside you can eat your dung for breakfast like you do every morning.

        2. Put it on mute. It is a threadshitting waste of time.

    2. I think they probably care because what you are vaccinated against can continue to circulate and mutate in the unvaccinated until it manages to escape the protection afforded by the original vaccine. Whereas if everyone got it to begin with you stop it in its tracks.

      1. lololol it’s my fault the vaccines didn’t take

      2. Vaccines can also drive viral mutation. The notion that viruses cease mutating in the vaccinated is science fiction.

        1. No, Fauci fiction.

        2. “Vaccines can also drive viral mutation.”

          No, they cannot. How would the mechanism of causation work?

          1. Sure, baby brain. Vaccines stop evolution. You lefty twats need a double barrel to the back of the head and shallow grave.

            1. No grave necessary.
              Buzzards gotta eat too

          2. Just when I thought Dee couldn’t embarrass herself anymore…actually I’ve never thought that. I realize her stupidity knows no bounds.

      3. Careful using this level of rational logic. People here want to righteously wail against the scary vaccine.

        1. I think everyone here can agree that Trump did an amazing job of fast-tracking the vaccine under Operation Warp Speed. Folks in high risk categories had access to a potentially life-saving medicine. I’m not sure there are any commenters here that were advocating against that.

          1. He did. Trump deserves a lot of credit for Operation Warp speed. But, no where in my statement did I remotely claim to say that commenters were advocating against Operation Warp Speed.

            1. “People here want to righteously wail against the scary vaccine.” The result of OWS was the vaccine. How can someone be railing against a vaccine but be for OWS?

              1. Cause people here are wailing against taking the vaccine. I don’t see any comments complaining about Operation Warp speed. That’s actually what is kind of ironic about it as discussed above. It’s like people who don’t like vaccines deep down know that their fear is irrational, so they never go full anti-vaxxer. They just troll around the edges.

                So yeah, lots of complaining about taking the vaccine, but no actual complaining about the government wasting time developing the vaccine.

                1. I haven’t seen any. I have seen posts from people that have decided that their situation does not warrant being vaccinated. But no freaking out about it. Have seen a lot of freaking out in response to that though.

                  People making personal decisions is not trolling.

                2. Squirrel’s own fear is as irrational as the strawman he’s attempting to rape

      4. Not sure why people can’t get this simple point.

    3. I care because it’s curtailing my liberty.

      That’s not a shot at unvaccinated. That’s a shot at the the governmental control freaks who think someone else’s choice, which doesn’t affect me, means societal-wide control is valid.

      Let the unvaccinated get sick. Or not. I mean, it’s going to happen when it happens, and at this point we don’t need to tell each other what to do as I’m confident if I get sick it’ll be mild. The wave will wash over us quickly and numbers will be crashing in a few weeks.

  10. Dems shot their wad, they should have waited and pushed this next year. By then it’ll be ho hum. Fucking retards.

    1. Next year is too close to elections

  11. Based on cycle threshold (Ct) values from the positive PCR tests, the REACT-1 researchers found that vaccinated people had lower viral loads than unvaccinated people

    And we all know how impeccably rigorous the FDA and CDC have been about determining and fixing Ct values for PCR testing.

    The idea that this represents anything quantitative or meaningful is laughable.

  12. “And we all know how impeccably rigorous the FDA and CDC have been about determining and fixing Ct values for PCR testing.” – MadandDishonest

    Do you have any evidence that the FDA and the CDC haven’t been rigorous?

    Do you even know what those agencies do?

    Nope. If you did, they you wouldn’t have made the claim.

    You are a just another Republican Moron.\

    1. Do you have any evidence that the FDA and the CDC haven’t been rigorous?

      Yes. From the GOP Stenographers over at NPR…

      CDC Report: Officials Knew Coronavirus Test Was Flawed But Released It Anyway

      On Feb. 6, a scientist in a small infectious disease lab on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention campus in Atlanta was putting a coronavirus test kit through its final paces. The lab designed and built the diagnostic test in record time, and the little vials that contained necessary reagents to identify the virus were boxed up and ready to go. But NPR has learned the results of that final quality control test suggested something troubling — it said the kit could fail 33% of the time.

      Under normal circumstances, that kind of result would stop a test in its tracks, half a dozen public and private lab officials told NPR. But an internal CDC review obtained by NPR confirms that lab officials decided to release the kit anyway. The revelation comes from a CDC internal review, known as a “root-cause analysis,” which the agency conducted to understand why an early coronavirus test didn’t work properly and wound up costing scientists precious weeks in the early days of a pandemic.

      1. So you just proved that the CDC rigorously found the test kits produced by an independent lab to be wrong 33 percent of the time.

        So your evidence actually indicates that your statement was false.

        That makes you Stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupid…….

        Do you have any evidence that the FDA and the CDC haven’t been rigorous?

        Do you even know what those agencies do?

        Nope. If you did, they you wouldn’t have made the claim.

        You are a just another Republican Moron.\

        1. The fact that the system discovered Cuomo was molesting women means the system worked!

        2. So you just proved that the CDC rigorously found the test kits produced by an independent lab to be wrong 33 percent of the time.

          What part of a lab on the CDC’s campus gives you the impression of independence? The article goes on to say “*The CDC’s* coronavirus test kit.

      2. Under normal circumstances, that kind of result would stop a test in its tracks, half a dozen public and private lab officials told NPR.

        And that’s being exceptionally generous. If virtually any other commercially-developed diagnostic test failed 33% of the time, they wouldn’t even bother ordering the boxes and would just ship it out in plastic bags with the rest of the garbage.

        1. I don’t know much in this crazy, crazy world. But I know No Agenda’s gonna be all over that 33% thing.

    2. Do you have any evidence that the FDA and the CDC haven’t been rigorous?

      You mean other than Fauci himself saying that for the first ~4 mos. of the pandemic clinical labs may’ve been reporting meaningless positive results from arbitrarily high cycle threshholds? Other than, 2 mos. later, the CDC releasing official guidance setting a specific cycle threshold for which samples should be rejected (and which a good chunk of the data in this study is above and relies upon to make its conclusions)?

      I spent a decade doing actual quantitative PCR in a clinical laboratory. The idea that cycle thresholds are accurate within an order of magnitude is laughable. The tools and reagents being used aren’t even accurate enough to produce such results reliably and this is noted throughout the literature. Especially when one considers the conjecture about breakthrough infections below the LOD.

      If Reason thinks blood spatter analysis is hocus pocus, they should take a deep dive into quantitative PCR.

    3. Yes. The CDC just used a very small sample that was not reviewed to suggest people wear masks indoors.
      “They’re (the CDC) making these decisions on the basis of extremely weak and unreliable data, and at the same time not doing the necessary work to reduce uncertainty among the population,” said Vinay Prasad, a physician and professor in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco. “When there isn’t a lot of study data, the CDC should be conducting these studies.”

    4. Vandicar out of curiosity why do you end your sentences with a period and backslash? New style, special keyboard or cell phone swipe/click too fast?

  13. Anthony Fauci, the Biden administration’s top COVID-19 adviser, told CNN last month that “we don’t need” boosters “right now,” but “there’s a lot of work going on to examine this in real time to see if we might need a boost.”

    I like how a guy… in the Biden admin sets policy for 330,000,000 people.

    1. Anthony Fauci, the Biden administration’s top COVID-19 adviser, told CNN last month that “we don’t need” boosters “right now,”

      He is correct.

      And Diane Reynolds is a spectacularly ignorant fool.

        1. Hay Retard Diane…

          Fauci on Tuesday Dec 2019: Masks are ineffective.
          Fauci on Thursday April 2020: PUT YOUR MASK ON!

          I fixed it for you.

        2. Masks today, no masks tomorrow, masks forever!

          1. Passports today, passports tomorrow and passports forever!

  14. Newly identified COVID-19 cases in the U.K. have fallen sharply since July 20, and Fauci this week told MedPage Today he expects the U.S. will see a similar “turnaround” as the vaccination rate rises.

    It’s like discussion of a previous infection is verboten.

    1. “It’s like discussion of a previous infection is verboten.” – Diane

      Is that what your brain tumor is telling you Diane?

        1. “LEAVE FAUCI ALONE!” Diane Retard

          Maybe you should just top lying.

          I have never encountered a Republican who wasn’t a congenital and perpetual liar.

          Never.

          Dianne is no exception to that observation.

  15. These comments are shocking. WTF. All this bitching and moaning over whether or not people should get a vaccine. Do what you want. Personally I think you should. I got it. But don’t do all this crazy shit with the name calling and the toxicity over it.

    1. This is the reality of AmeriKKKa

      “These comments are shocking. ”

      Land of the Retards.

    2. Do what you want.

      If only the government agreed …

    3. MOST of the most toxic are actually trolls. Many paid to be assholes, some doing it on their own time. It’s true everywhere there’s a comment forum, alas.

      I’m with you. Let it go. Unvaccinated made their choice, vaccinated made their choice. I have my views, but beyond that it’s not my business.

      Please keep being reasonable. I appreciate your view.

      1. Why in the world would anyone care about the Reason commentariat enough to hire trolls to post here. That makes zero sense.

        1. To HO2 down the libertarian discussions and information sharing that occur here. For example, many of Ken’s posts are attacked almost immediately with a host of logical fallacies and nonsense that look a lot like the equivalent of a heckler’s veto. But I don’t know if anyone is paid or just freelance trolling. Last night when one was asked they used a “chaff a redirect” technique that is common in interrogations pf someone later found guilty. Certainly not proof of it but doesn’t do anything to end suspicion.

          1. Reason is the public face of libertarianism (regardless of whether it should be) and a respected publication (regardless of whether it should be), especially among other press. It’s mainstream, unlike Mises or zero hedge.
            Reason writers are invited by networks to represent the libertarian perspective (regardless of whether they do).
            Thus Reason is more or less the official representative publication of the 3rd largest political party in the country.
            Many independents and moderates (both with and without scare quotes) come here to get what they expect to be a nonpartisan/neutral perspective to either counter or confirm what they’re told in their bubble.
            As such, it’s a logical target for psyops/propaganda attempting to sway, bolster, or discourage people that don’t lend as much credence to Fox or the MSM.
            The comments are seen by these people as representative of (less or) nonpartisan, objective sentiment.
            That sentiment has turned overwhelmingly against the left in the 6 months since they’ve seized total power, and the left has had organizations dedicated to influencing/manipulating public opinion through social media, including comment sections.
            The relatively small number of comments belies Reason’s position: in the information war, it’s strategic ground.

            1. This is exactly why I come here and it is specifically for the comments. I find the comments here overwhelmingly the best on the internet. Even with the trolls.

              1. It’s a pretty unique collection of posters, trolls/leftists notwithstanding

    4. WTF. All this bitching and moaning

      But I don’t do all this crazy shit with the name calling and the toxicity over it.

      Very deep.

  16. The results also indicate that vaccinated people infected by delta have lower viral loads and less severe symptoms than unvaccinated people.

    Vaccinated people are not supposed to get infected at all. When was the last time someone who had the measles or polio vax got the disease? And no one ever says with those and other medications that taking it means getting “a milder case” than normal.

    1. It is very rare, but it does happen.

      1. Yeah, frequently among people who haven’t been vaccinated in over two decades or have had some immune compromising event since they were.

    2. do you not understand how vaccines work, and how it’s all percentages?

    3. Also there is little to no measles and polio around in the US.

  17. Really nothing new in terms of advice to people.

    – The death rate is <1%, lower if you are healthy
    – The vaccine reduces this further but there can be side effects

    Weigh your risk and make your choice. Then go on with life.

    If you pussies have an issue with people deciding not to get a vaccine, stay in your house. We aren't going to shut down society until you have absolutely no risk. Get fucked

    1. I never advocated we should. Society should fully open up with no restrictions, and if you dumbasses who don’t get the vaccine get sick, don’t come crying to me.

      I shouldn’t have to subsidize your poor decision making by keeping society closed or wearing a mask.

      Same if you don’t want to wear a seatbelt. Sure it increases your chance of survival, but it *could* kill you in rare cases, so yeah if you don’t want to wear a seat belt, have at it and be a dumbass too

      1. I shouldn’t have to subsidize your poor decision making by keeping society closed or wearing a mask.

        Take it up with the totalitarians you elected.

        1. I have not voted for any of the people in power here in California. They are just as wrong.

          The people saying I can’t take a vax because of a 0.0….% risk is the same mentality of ‘I’m vaccinated but the vaccine isn’t 100% so all you other people need to surrender your freedoms because it’s not 100%!”

          1. 1. The risk of negative consequences of taking the vax isn’t 0.0%. It may not be greater than the risk of negative consequences from covid, but I’d bet it’s at the very least equal.

            2. People aren’t saying they can’t take the vax, they’re saying they won’t.

            3. How is their choice any business of yours?

          2. You think people should want the vax and they’re stupid if they don’t.
            Okay, you’re entitled to your opinion.
            But it’s weird that you’re obsessing and so emotionally invested in people’s disagreement on that point.

            1. Correct.

              I’m trying to understand why and none of the stated reasons make any logical or scientific sense at all. The risk of the vaccine is far less than the risk from Covid. Covid sucks to get it, so you should want to mitigate getting it and decrease the severity of it. Half of the comments on this are just conspiracy nuttiness or paranoid delusions.

              I get to not trust a single damn thing the left says, since all they do is lie. And everything they’ve done during this pandemic is ass-backwards and fuels their own power.

              But that still doesn’t mean it’s not a smart move to take the vaccine.

              1. If you want to take the vaccine, go for it. People not getting the vaccine themselves certainly isn’t stopping you from getting it.
                As far as people’s reasons for not getting the vax appearing to have no logical or scientific basis/validity (despite their simple, clear, and detailed explanations)… that’s a you problem. You, for whatever reason, cannot understand or accept that there are people who don’t live in fear of viruses and prefer to deal with them on their own. For your sake, I hope you get over that.

    2. Having a large unvaccinated population increased the odds of a deadly, vaccine-resistant variant arising among them. Your decision not to be vaccinated affects others beside yourself.

      1. What is your baseline against which you are measuring “increased odds”?

  18. > tests a random, nationally representative sample of people in England.

    I was struck by this.

    They’re doing regular, rigorous, studies on a periodic basis to get valid data of a representative sample of people in England.

    We have the CDC. This SHOULD be exactly what they do and, a year and a half later, they’re still plucking random data from random other studies and making knee-jerk public policy based on this.

    This bothers me. The data from the UK are pretty clear, and the implications one draws from that data, since it’s representative of general society there, seem more valid.

    For us, we get chicken little based on the study of bear week in Provincetown, which is about as non-representative of the rest of the nation as you can get. Why haven’t the CDC experts been doing similar studies to the ones in the UK on a regular basis? The incompetence would just make me sad if it weren’t very adversely affecting society right now.

    1. For us, we get chicken little based on the study of bear week in Provincetown, which is about as non-representative of the rest of the nation as you can get.
      Not true. Everyone is gay now.

    2. we get chicken little based on the study of bear week in Provincetown, which is about as non-representative of the rest of the nation as you can get.

      Why? Does the vaccine not work if you’re gay? Is gay sex an exceptionally contagious behavior? Are there other vaccines that this is the case for? If you have lots of gay sex can you suddenly become susceptible to measles or pertusis despite being vaccinated?

    3. It is easier in the UK because of something we object to. They have the NHS.

      1. We do representative samples of things all the time. While the NHS may make it marginally easier, it is nor prohibitive for the US/CDC to conduct studies with similar rigor and validity.

  19. So meanwhile Senile Joe spend two days using his redheaded whore to attack DeSantis over his response to lockdowns, mask, etc. First he was wrong about lockdowns and masks, DeSantis says get the fuck out of my way and we’re doing better than most blue states. Then Biden’s weak response that the governor is “anti-vax” despite being vaccinated and having a high elderly vaccination rate (way better than most and also DeSantis didn’t kill off the elderly unlike Cuomo and other blue state murderers). Finally after getting bitch slapped Biden goes “uhh huh huh governor who?” to squees of joy from the lapdog bootlickers in the media.

    So Biden lied about how Florida was doing, lied about lockdowns and masks, lied about vaccination rates, and finally pretended to not know DeSantis (this part may be real, Senile Joe is just that). Even after talking about him for 2 days straight.

    Fuck Biden, fuck the democrats, fuck the left, and put the treasonous bastards in camps.

  20. The great myth here is govt can provide:
    1. Security
    2. Certainty
    3. Predictability
    4. Happiness

    Progs and Left Libertarians believe govt can do all this…anyone with an IQ over 10 realizes this is a fantasy

    1. “The great myth here is govt can provide:
      1. Security
      2. Certainty
      3. Predictability
      4. Happiness”

      I do feel like the defect in progressives is they often have some kind of mental health problem. The amount of depression and anxiety among the left is very high. Especially the security, certainty, happiness parts…these people are riddled with anxiety; they need daddy (the govt) to come in and tell them everything is going to be OK. They don’t have religion, they just have the collective. The idea of a strong hand coming to their defense and carrying out their will makes them feel warm and fuzzy. A nice warm blanket.

      This idea that govt is even capable of providing these things above is laughable to anyone that has seen govt try to do so, but its all they have. They have very sad, empty lives and think the magic govt can fix everything for them.

    2. But this time we will get the right people in charge! ME!

      / Every communist on twitter wouldn’t last 5 seconds under communism. They’d be shocked about being in the gulag

  21. https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1423423112499113990?s=19

    They are already referring to anti-lockdown protesters as ‘terrorists’ behind closed doors

  22. https://twitter.com/ZubyMusic/status/1423411418372755459?s=19

    It’s struck me that it wouldn’t be difficult for a movement like Nazism to eventually rise to power again in a Western country.

    Provided they cleverly marketed it under the banners of ‘science’, ‘public health,’ ‘safety’, and ‘the greater good’.

    Kind of like the Nazis…

  23. https://twitter.com/cliftonaduncan/status/1423381581729837064?s=19

    I’m curious as to how the Crusaders for Justice will convince Black Americans that the entire system hates them and is racist EXCEPT for profit-driven pharmaceutical corporations and the government

  24. https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1423322271503028228?s=19

    “95% of the severe patients are vaccinated”.
    “85-90% of the hospitalizations are in Fully vaccinated people.”
    “We are opening more and more COVID wards.”
    “The effectiveness of the vaccine is waning/fading out”

    (Dr. Kobi Haviv, earlier today on Chanel 13 @newsisrael13 ) [link]

    1. Oh like the media is going to listen to some Jew…

  25. That’s something we obviously don’t want to see.
    View as Ku711

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  27. ‘Delta plus’ is ‘not a problem’: Everything to know about the subvariant and why experts aren’t worried, yet

    The name itself – “delta plus” – suggests the variant underwent an upgrade to become more virulent. But while little is known about the sublineage and its mutations, health experts say it’s not spreading efficiently now in the U.S., and Americans shouldn’t add it to their pandemic worry list.

    “It’s a cool name that’s trending,” said Dr. Daniel Rhoads, section head of microbiology at the Cleveland Clinic. “When someone says ‘delta plus’ or any of these new names, it means the virus is continuing to evolve with us, ” but there’s no evidence to suggest the new sublineage should be concerning. – USA Today

  28. So… are we still assuming everything is delta despite not having a way to specifically identify it via testing?
    Does that strike anyone else as… odd?

    1. Exactly. No one can answer that question but somehow we all know.

      Fack off.

      If by now you still don’t think this thing is bio-engineered acting like it’s all natural, then all I can say is let the virus take care of natural selection we artificially suppressed. There is a pandemic. A pandemic of assholes and naifs.

      Start with all the nut cases in white lab coats lead by the Keebler Elf Fauci.

      Fucking criminals the whole lot. Pourri. Rotten. Corroded. Corrupted. All of it. From every single agency to every institution. It has to all collapse.

      Where the fuck do they find these people like Walensky?

      Also. Iceland said vaccines did not achieve herd.

      Yeh. And wait until the long-term impacts which may add more surprises.

      Love how we still act like it’s all normal what’s happening.

      In the words of the great Red Foreman: Dumbasses.

      Every single shill ‘journalist’, medical official and politician: DUMBASSES.

      I would LOVE to shove a mask up every single one of these degenerates asses.

      1. “Also. Iceland said vaccines did not achieve herd.”

        Shit. There goes plan B.

  29. Greatest panic and crime in human history.

    1. I dunno. The Irish potato famine was pretty bad.

  30. The higher rate of insecuritiesinsecurities is just the problem this enconomy is face right now ,and how to address should comecome from each citizens,

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