School Choice Is the Answer to Education Disputes
Religious families aren’t the only ones seeking escape from endless curriculum wars.

As Americans fight a very modern battle over ideological spin in public schools, the Supreme Court has agreed to hear a case rooted in earlier struggles over lesson content. The justices will decide whether Maine can continue to exclude religious schools from a program that pays private school tuition for students that live in places that don't have public high schools. Given the court's recent recognition that such restrictions are historically rooted in anti-Catholic bigotry and unacceptable under the First Amendment, the likely outcome is greater freedom for families to choose education that embodies their values.
In Maine, families living in towns that don't fund their own high schools can enroll their kids in the public or private schools of their choice with the tuition paid by the home town. One limitation, though, is that the chosen school must be nonreligious for the cost to be reimbursed. Such restrictions (often called "Blaine amendments") exist in many states and only narrowly failed to take hold in the federal Constitution in 1875. While seemingly intended to reinforce the separation of church and state, they have their roots in a time when public officials sought to prevent the funding of alternatives to Protestant-dominated institutions.
"An effort by Roman Catholics to obtain a share of state educational spending for the network of parochial schools they were developing, in reaction to the overt Protestantism of public schools, served as the impetus for these measures," Jane G. Rainey, a professor emeritus of political science at Eastern Kentucky University, noted in 2009 for the Free Speech Center's First Amendment Encyclopedia. Interestingly, the 19th-century restrictions were named after Rep. James G. Blaine of Maine, though his own state's restriction is of more recent vintage.
Blaine amendments survived most challenges until 2020, when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on arguments against Montana's restrictions on religious schools benefiting from a tax credit-funded scholarship program in Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue. For the majority, Chief Justice John Roberts acknowledged the bigotry behind limits on the participation of religious schools in education choice programs. The court found such restrictions to be a violation of the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment.
"A State need not subsidize private education," wrote Roberts. "But once a State decides to do so, it cannot disqualify some private schools solely because they are religious."
The Institute for Justice, which argued for the plaintiffs in Espinoza, also represents the parents in the Maine case, Carson v. Makin.
"By singling out religion—and only religion—for exclusion from its tuition assistance program, Maine violates the U.S. Constitution," says Senior Attorney Michael Bindas of the Institute for Justice. "The state flatly bans parents from choosing schools that offer religious instruction. That is unconstitutional."
While Carson would seem to be an opportunity to conclude an almost forgotten struggle between religious sects over control of schooling, the question of who decides what students are taught remains relevant in the modern world. In his concurrence in Espinoza, Associate Justice Samuel Alito explicitly connected ongoing curriculum battles to the disagreements of the past.
"Catholic and Jewish schools sprang up because the common schools were not neutral on matters of religion," observed Alito. "Today's public schools are quite different from those envisioned by Horace Mann, but many parents of many different faiths still believe that their local schools inculcate a worldview that is antithetical to what they teach at home… The tax-credit program adopted by the Montana Legislature but overturned by the Montana Supreme Court provided necessary aid for parents who pay taxes to support the public schools but who disagree with the teaching there," he added.
Arguments may have moved on from theology to ideology, but differences over what should be taught in the classroom are eternal. The inevitability of such disagreements is embodied, at the moment, in current arguments over whether schools paid for by everybody should teach lessons rooted in controversial Critical Theory interpretations of history and race relations. The National Education Association, for its part, endorses the adoption of that viewpoint by public schools.
But that's hardly the full history of such debates. Before Critical Race Theory and antiracism captured the headlines, parents and educators fought over whether to refer to the United States as a "republic" or a "democracy." State-level public educators in California and Texas purchased textbooks that put clashing political spin on economics, slavery, and civil liberties.
"The books have the same publisher," Dana Goldstein wrote for The New York Times in January 2020. "They credit the same authors. But they are customized for students in different states, and their contents sometimes diverge in ways that reflect the nation's deepest partisan divides."
Everybody with a strong point of view, it seems, either wants to influence what students are taught, or else escape the clutches of people with whom they disagree who exercise such control.
By resurrecting a century-and-a-half-old argument over whether families can choose for education funding to follow their children to religious schools that share their values, Carson reasserts the importance of choice in settling disagreements over what is taught in the classroom. Religious belief just happens to be one continuing source of friction in a world in which people clash over viewpoints that may be religious or secular but are undoubtedly closely held and are often the source of vigorous conflicts.
With its eventual decision in a case brought by parents from Maine, the U.S. Supreme Court might finally settle, one way or another, a long-simmering debate over allowing education funding to follow students who find public schools hostile to their faith and prefer more religious content in their lessons. But it will also emphasize the important role that choice plays in empowering families to escape curriculum wars by leaving such battles behind in favor of peacefully selecting their children's learning environments.
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"endless curriculum wars" -- Brought to you by Commie-Education.
The endless curriculum wars have been around forever, but pretty only the conspiratards at the John Birch Society called them communist. But the JBS also called the US Government communist. To them everything was communist.
Teaching evolution in schools. Was that communist? JBS said yes, because everything was communist. Abandoning phonics. Communist? JBS explicitly said yes. Because everything was communist. To the JBS the whole public school system was about communists putting change agents in our schools. New Math? Communist. Anything other than the Three Rs (like geography, history, P.E., etc) was communist. Take your pick it was communist. Sex education? Obviously communist! I mean duh! Can't be telling kids about gametes and stuff, they'll turn into bolsheviks!
Heck, my high school civics teacher was JBS. Which sometimes made classes interesting.
Congrats on continuing the JBS nuttery. Maybe get a book and learn what communism actually is. It's not just an epithet you attach to anything you don't like.
Communism definition is - a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed.
Congratulations on being a complete idiot.
Idiot definition is - a foolish or stupid person.
Since you don't even know word meanings I better include this one too.
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You commie pinko lackey
“endless curriculum wars”? No doubt. Communism? Perhaps not. Collectivism? Certainly so.
The main long-term effect of "school choice" schemes that bring taxpayer funding into private schools is to turn those private schools into de facto government schools.
Government funding ALWAYS comes with strings attached, and those strings are considerable. This isn't speculation -- we've already seen it play out in higher education with the GI Bill, Pell Grants, government-guaranteed student loans, etc. Schools that want the money have to meet various federal standards vis a vis not just curriculum, but who they let in and why, student discipline, etc.
The way to end (most) education disputes is to separate school and state entirely.
Which is not going to happen without a radical change in public opinion on the role of government in education. So until that is achieved, what is your suggestion?
Separate curriculum from facilities within the education discussion/budgeting. Easier said than done of course. But imo there is really a huge difference between argument over the school pool or even food in the cafeteria v curriculum. The former is the source of most of the spending and, like it or not, hugely affect land values more than it does education.
Once the spending argument is a trickle and the facilities are all paid for, the arguments can change. How can we better align costs with the benefits to individual kids? How can we ensure that kids themselves have equal opportunity to an education rather than be mere puppets of their cirth circumstance? How can we be tolerant enough to have a class on creationism held in the same building as one on evolution?
"have a class on creationism held in the same building as one on evolution" Why would we want that? We have churches for that. Schools should be for learning about the real world. Perhaps included in classes on myths and legends?
"The way to end (most) education disputes is to separate school and state entirely."
Indeed, but until that time the best we can accomplish is to prevent those publicly funded schools from inculcating students in racism, or collectivism.
Ah, but once one grants the premise that it's all right for government to coerce Indigenous children in Canada and the U.S. to attend Residential Schools away from their parents and to coerce those children to learn language, culture, and religion of someone else, one isn't in much of a position to fight this coercion when it happens to you and your children.
It's either get coercion out of education entirely or eternally fight over who coerces whom.
Nice strawman.
Build it all by yourself?
You must be so proud.
And in case you haven't notice other comments: I'm all for ending public funding of education.
But until we stop then the fight over what gets taught does remain, and racism and totalitarianism are not things we should be teaching.
Why is it so hard for people to agree on that?
Of course I agree with that. I'm saying we start by eliminating compulsory attendance laws. This alone would take the wind out of the sails of any attempt to impose racism and totalitarian mind control on children.
We should have started with the Indigenous Residential Schools or even earlier when the Puritans brought compulsory government schooling to our shores.
Neither of these are strawmen...unless you claim they never existed, in which case, there's someone in the comments I'd like to introduce to you.
Tuition vouchers or tax credits.
The extent of government involvement beyond that would be to set minimal standards. The same standards, by the way, that already exist for private schools today. Note these are standards to receive tax money, not standards to exist as a school.
Ideally we get government out of education entirely. But we can't do that all at once, we have to take it in steps. And vouchers/credits seems like a sensible first step.
"Tuition vouchers or tax credits."
Government money means government strings will be attached.
Which means we will still need to prevent those publicly funded schools from inculcating students in racism, or collectivism.
"The extent of government involvement beyond that would be to set minimal standards." Yeah, right. You must be aware of the "slippery slope" and the "camel's nose in the tent".
The way to end (most) education disputes is to separate school and state entirely.
The only way to separate school and state "entirely" would be to end all taxpayer funding of education. That is not ever going to happen, nor should it.
As long as taxes fund education, then the public that pays those taxes gets to decide how those funds are spent. If you want to convince a majority of voters that education tax money is better spent by just giving a voucher to parents with no strings attached at all, then go for it. But parents do not have an inherent right to such a system in the way that some school choice advocates argue.
The only way to separate school and state “entirely” would be to end all taxpayer funding of education. That is not ever going to happen, nor should it.
All right. So if you and your children are not sovereign beings with a right to use your minds to learn at your own direction, then who owns you?
All right. So if you and your children are not sovereign beings with a right to use your minds to learn at your own direction, then who owns you?
No one owns me. I don't have kids, but if I did, I would not have a right to use public money to have them taught only in the way that I want them to be taught. If you want public money to educate your kids, then you accept public accountability for how they are taught. Parents are absolutely free to direct the education of their children how they see fit, just not with taxpayer funds.
How was this not clear from what I said? I don't see how you missed that.
You said, and I quote: The only way to separate school and state “entirely” would be to end all taxpayer funding of education. That is not ever going to happen, nor should it.
Here, you are conceding that government has the right to control what is taught to children via control of public funds.
Yet in your next post, you're saying you would want to direct your children's education without help of taxpayer funds (which is the proper libertarian position on education and my own.)
So which is it?
"The only way to separate [insert industry here] and state “entirely” would be to end all taxpayer funding of [insert industry here]. That is not ever going to happen, nor should it." That attitude permeates EVERYTHING. Get ready for more of it in health care as The State takes over.
"Before Critical Race Theory and antiracism captured the headlines, parents and educators fought over whether to refer to the United States as a 'republic' or a '"democracy.' " This is a specious argument since our founding documents, most prominently our Constitution, clearly establish the United States as a republic, albeit with democratically elected representatives from each state and district within a state.
In reply to Mr. Knapp, I don't entirely agree with his statements about the long term effect of school choice. School choice should mean Charter Schools, or private schools, maybe even schools owned and operated by a religious group. But this doesn't have to mean such private schools are turned into de facto government schools. If these Charter Schools are founded with the specific intention of being separate from public schools, then parents must be able to withhold the amount of property taxes they pay that are assigned by the local government for public schools. This is only fair and just.
If this is not possible in one's jurisdiction, then that city's council or management authority must be changed to allow it. It may take some time to affect this change because citizens have become accustomed to public (taxpayer-funded) schools for more than a century.
So, a persuasive case must be made by the advocates of Charter Schools and Private Schools, and the proportional taxpayer funding of them. I believe that altogether this will not be a difficult idea for the taxpaying public to accept.
I was taught it’s a democratic republic. I don’t see what’s wrong with teaching that.
However, our system has become far more of an indirect democracy since the 16th and our representatives don’t do their jobs. So I kinda feel like the republic part is a poorly disguised lie.
Whether it is a lie or not the US Constitution expressly guarantees the citizens of every State a republican form of government.
It's black and white. It's also apparent that few public school students learn it. Which might explain why it is, or is becoming an untruth.
So, rather than the finer points of Frankfurt School Marxism, maybe would could require schools teach the actual contents of our founding documents.
^
The people who are pushing activist indoctrination curricula are also the ones who will fight school choice tooth and nail. They do not want any avenues of escape.
Secondly, is race consciousness and race essentialism and bad history something that should be taught in government schools even if libertarianscgetmust of what they want on school choice. The government school system will never be entirely dismantled, there is too much support for it.
Isn't that why we are here commenting; Try to explain to media-brainwashed imbeciles why supporting their own Individual Liberty and Justice is ***far more*** in their best interest than support of Nazism (def; National Socialism) and Gov-Gun Force.
As-if history didn't already teach the lesson that Nazism isn't in our best interest. Sadly; The Nazi-Indoctrination seems to be winning and patriots have only Reason left to comment on as Nazi's have banned them from all other platforms.
TJ? looks like you are confusing Nazis with Fascists.
All Nazis were Fascists, but not all Facsists are Nazis.
Correct... Good catch.
Here in California we are 48th in academic achievement, but we DO have the best LGBTQI curriculum in the elementary schools.
So glad my sons are done with the public school system here.
They will never be done with it it they earn money.
This seems a somewhat dishonest argument. In practical terms, the "solve the problem through school choice" position amounts effectively to accepting the authority of those imposing the curriculum one finds objectionable. I support a free market in education. But, I'm hardly so blind as to think it exists in widespread practice or is likely to anytime soon. Deferring to school choice in the interim amounts to deferring to the objectionable curriculum indefinitely. Moreover, allowing those in power to impose an objectionable curriculum only serves to further incentivize their preference for not allowing a free market in education. After all, they're getting their way. Why give up the universality of their preference?
Catholic and Jewish schools sprang up because the common schools were not neutral on matters of religion," observed Alito. "Today's public schools are quite different from those envisioned by Horace Mann, but many parents of many different faiths still believe that their local schools inculcate a worldview that is antithetical to what they teach at home
Today's Supreme Court is also not the same as back then. When 100% of the justices now are either Catholic or Jewish (and have been for now - 15 years?) - I have much faith that they will see the biases of institutions that were set up by and with Protestants as the unquestioned assumption re cultural norms.
I have no faith at all that they will actually understand the whole pluralism and separation that US church-state stuff was built on. The idea of that was basically a creation of Calvinists - with theological underpinnings. Neither Catholicism nor Judaism has ever had a theological basis for how the US system is based because both of those systems conjoin state and church. And the only alternative (for the lapsed intellectual type) is the French laicite. Which is not the same as ours at all.
And the basically German model is where the privatize school choice stuff is goinng. Where any/most of these schools can get a voucher to subsidize the kiddies. That's establishment of religion
Gotta disagree. The American style of separation of Church and State came about because we had way too many denominations and religions. Puritan colonies and Catholic colonies and Quaker colonies and offshoots like Unitarians and Shakers and the whole Anabaptist invasion. Don't forget the mainstream Presbyterians and Methodists.
That situation simply did not exist in England, which had a one size fits all religion. We simply did not have the option of picking a one size fits all religion for our nation. And actually, most states did have state religions and religious requirements of office. Just not at the Federal level.
Later Calvinism had that idea but only because later Calvinism was never in charge of a state, but instead had to reside in states where other denominations were mandated. Hence why so many Calvinist offshoots in the colonies. They were escaping Europe. Puritans for example.
Now Catholics are largely hiearchical. One reason they were viewed with suspicion for so long, no one knew if they were local to 'Murica or the Pope. Jews, on the other hand, are anti-hierarchical. They've haven't had a religious state for over two thousand years. They are very amenable to secular states and religious pluralism. It cuts down on the pogroms.
Hate to break it to you - but many of those denominations are Calvinist. Presbyterian = the American name for the Scottish Calvinist Kirk. And I'm not trying to be denominational here - and certainly not trying to attribute anything specifically to Jean Calvin - but basically to the Reformation ideas re the attempts to break away from Roman Catholic attempted control over both the state and 'Christendom'. These were notably NOT Luther and NOT Anglican (which is basically Anglo-Catholic) and NOT the self-isolating religious communities. That's what I am calling Calvinist because that's mostly what's left.
The two main 'institutions' that create the American notion are Freemasons and the Rhode Island Charter of 1663. The Freemasons were originally interdenominational Calvinists who secularized religious ethic (of all the religions they knew - not just their denominations) via masonry symbolism in order to reduce denominational stubbornness/vitriol and even hide the religious roots. The same motivations/actions of Freemasons are also at the heart of the French Enlightenment (and obviously the Scottish and Dutch and German). The Rhode Island Charter was based on Roger Williams' writings - Baptists being, you got it, one of the many forms of English Calvinism.
re Catholics and Jews
I agree generally with what you're saying. Except that there is a huge difference between secular states (the French and Turkish model - both of which are quite modern) and pluralist states. Most of those differences pop up specifically in the legal disputes because one of the major differences is - what role is religion ALLOWED to play in PUBLIC life? And who gets to define that role?
Both Catholics and Jews are very familiar/comfortable with the secular/laicite model - because it is modern and there's a lot of public/intellectual/legal discussion about that. But the American form dates way back - to when those two religions were theologically either/both state-comfortable and self-isolating.
Don't get me wrong - the fundamentalist denominations of Calvinism are not the Calvinism I'm talking about. They may understand it (doubt it) - but they reject it in favor of a modern theocratic thang. They didn't actually exist before about 1900. Don't tell them that though.
This libertarian argument about school choice in response to how awful your child's education is becoming is a bit on the disconnected theoretical and high brow side, ignoring the realities on the ground in exchange for a solution which is... well, let's just say about as far as North Platte and the Moon.
It reminds me a bit of the conservative libertarian complaints about the gay marriage fight. "Get the government out of marriage".
The distance between reality and that proposal was even worse-- I'd say somewhere between Salt Pork, West Virginia and the opposite side of the galaxy. Given that reality, it only made sense to legalize gay marriage.
It's going to be a good, long while before we have any kind of comprehensive and widely available school choice program for every single American, regardless of income level. Given that reality, dismissing the current fights over things like "critical race theory" (or whatever the school board calls it in an attempt to say their 'justice and equity' education program in no way represents the views or writings of Derrick Bell, Richard Delgado, Patricia Williams, etc).
So no matter what you think of CRT (or the lack thereof- if that's your thing, baby) or any OTHER fight that's raging in the school system at the moment, the fight is here, it's real and it needs to be dealt with-- even if that results in Parents' concerns over racist ideologies being smuggled into the classroom being totally dismissed by powerful and entrenched school boards.
Perfectly stated. This is an immediate existential threat to the future of this country. It must be dealt with now, not a decade from now, if ever. It's a strawman that Tucille has written like five times in the last few months.
"School choice" at this juncture is a bit like saying, "Oh don't worry, those college activists aren't the majority, and they'll be slapped in the face by the real world when they graduate." Actually engaging these people and putting skin in the game is not something that normally conflict-averse conservatives and libertarians do. That's why leftists start screeching about "fascism," gaslight, and play the passive-aggressive deflection game whenever the former actually start pushing back on their agenda with any kind of energy.
You're spot on.
And with all the parents choosing to homeschool their children, that fight is coming as well. In heavy blue states and nationally if these racists stay in power.
There is no point in making the argument in this article. We all understand that the Left doesn't want "curriculum wars" to be resolved such that everyone gets what he wants.
The Left wants to control what is taught to ALL children.
I can almost guarantee you that if I went to a few hundred random "normies" on the street, I'd be able to find way more people willing to show up to a school board and rip them a new one in the public comment period than I would people who would believe, let alone be willing to fight for something that's probably not going to come about in even the medium term, let alone the short term.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't be demanding school choice. But what we need right now is a lot more of this.
These articles 'promoting' school choice always seem to crop up whenever it is the statists on the school boards taking it in the shorts.
Why is it we never see 'end the welfare state' articles when the topic du jour is open borders?
School Choice Is the Answer to Education Disputes
Religious families aren’t the only ones seeking escape from endless curriculum wars.
If educational choice is what you want, Tuccille, then the solution is not to give religious schools an equal shot at vouchers or subsidies. That just makes things worse by subsidizing different varieties of crap education and would make all private schools as rotten as Gummint Skoolz.
Instead, give every parent back what property taxes or other taxes they've put into the school system and let them do with that money what they choose for their children's education.
Educational choice means taking responsibility to pay your own freight as well.
I know this much: 25 or 50 years from now, I don't want to see some Tea Party old fart holding a sign saying: "Stop So-shul-ized Ed-U-Muh-Kay-Shun!
Keep yer Gummint Mittz Awf Muh GrandKidz Skool Vowcher!"
The parochial schools are better off without the government money and control that goes with it.
And we'd all be better off if the Marxists were cut off from public funding for their indoctrination efforts.
I am 100% behind school choice. When my daughter was in grade school, we moved to a large eastern city with horrible public schools. Despite being an atheist, I enrolled her in Catholic school and was very, very pleased with the education she received. Yes, she had to go to mass every morning but the classroom instruction was otherwise secular. She was taught evolution in science class. The point is, she was my child and as her parent, it should be up to me - not some bureaucrats or teacher’s Union officials - to decide on her instruction.
In grade school, penguins defended monarchic mercantilism and fascism against communism. Both seemed equally odious until the catechism book showed a silhouette picture of commies mowing down priests and nuns. This was convincing proof they couldn't be all bad. A copy of "Anthem" from dad's bookcase finally revealed a third alternative. Without it I'd probably be trying to defend Orange Fuehrer Trump or Dope Czar Biden with no clue to the definition of rights or freedom.
Right here with you.
Perhaps they may not have existed in your time and locale, but there are Atheist/Secularist private school and homeschool curricula and parents groups. Montessori schools are one option among others. These may be a better and safer option for Unbelievers with children.
The taxes collected by the federal government and allocated to education should follow the students to the school they or their parents chose for them to attend for K-12+4 years for work related credentials. The federal department of education has wasted every dollar they have spent since the department was created, proving that the government education programs tried to date are for naught. an education encompass the whole person, and isolating education from family, religion, free associations, and peers will never work. The Constitution of the United States was created for a nation state of people who are moral by the score of the Christian Ethos, religious, and well educated. In modernity the USA is about 25% moral and religious, with about 47% educated but not in history or civics, and the remainder are not. This is not an electorate that is likely to be able to keep this country's freedoms and-or its prosperity.
Go to PragerU and watch a bunch of very well presented videos under the heading "Restricted by YouTube" to judge your knowledge and beliefs.
The taxes collected by the federal government and allocated to education should follow the students to the school they or their parents chose for them to attend for K-12+4 years for work related credentials.
The federal government accounts for less than 10% of K-12 education spending. I didn't find an easy answer to the question for federal spending on postsecondary education, but it seems to be only a little higher, with federal spending on higher education programs totaling around $100 billion compared to total spending on higher education in the country at just over $600 billion.
"The Constitution of the United States was created for a nation state of people who are moral by the score of the Christian Ethos, religious, and well educated."
The Constitution (prior to being amended by the Bill of Rights), only references religion to say that no religious test can be made for any public office. The 1st Amendment guaranteed Free Exercise of religion and barred the "establishment" of religion. Yes, this only applied to the federal government at the time of the Founding, but the Supreme Court correctly interpreted the 14th Amendment as extending most of the Bill of Rights to all levels of government.
Christianity has some good moral teachings, but it neither has a monopoly on good moral teachings nor does being Christian guarantee moral behavior. And you don't have to believe the myths and miracles in order to learn from the moral teachings that are valuable.
In modernity the USA is about 25% moral and religious, with about 47% educated but not in history or civics, and the remainder are not. This is not an electorate that is likely to be able to keep this country’s freedoms and-or its prosperity.
You are pretty obviously making those numbers up. Only around 20% of American adults self-identify as not having a religion. And these "nones" are not all atheists and agnostics, with most actually just not believing in any particular religion, but still feeling that there is some kind of higher power. Now, how often the 70% or so that call themselves Christian go to church or pray, or how important they will say that their beliefs are to them, may vary. But to say that only 25% of the modern American society is "moral and religious" is clearly wrong. (I also consider it wrong to equate being moral and being religious, by the way.)
And appealing to PragerU as an authority is kind of a joke.
Appealing to predatory altruism as if it were not antithetical to moral ethics is a joke disguised as sophistry.
Appealing to predatory altruism as if it were not antithetical to moral ethics is a joke disguised as sophistry.
What is "predatory altruism" and how is anything I said whatever that is?
OK, here's a cognitive honesty test: The author of the 1920 NSDAP Program was schooled a catholic, defended positive christianity and wrote Germany's Enabling Act. True or False?
"Cognitive honesty"? Again, I just have to ask what the fuck you are talking about and how is it relevant to anything I've said? I'm not going to try and guess what your argument is. You have to make a coherent one before I can respond to it.
So public schools should be able to teach and promote Nazism so long as "school choice" is available? I've asked this question before, yet it consistently goes unanswered.
Modern day Reason libertarians make me question what being a libertarian really means anymore. The writers here are either dumber than your average house cat, or are being intellectually dishonest on purpose.
^
School choice will not solve these controversies. Debates over race, history, civics, gender and sexuality, sex education, evolution, public prayer, and more all seep into public schools because those those political and culture war battlegrounds exist at all. Anyone with a strong opinion on one of these matters is going to have a strong opinion on how those issues should be handled in schools. People will always think that their political and cultural views are what is right and "true", and it is only natural that children should be taught the "truth".
If you really look carefully at what conservatives have to say about kids being "indoctrinated" in public schools, it gets pretty clear that what bothers them is that students are being "indoctrinated" into the wrong things, not that public schools should champion free inquiry and skepticism of all perspectives. Just see how much they want students to be taught to be patriotic and love America and see capitalism as an essential American virtue.
And it isn't just public schools that can be too "woke", either. Even Catholic schools can end up in the crosshairs of conservatives that can't stand anyone teaching kids to value the equal rights of people that conservatives think shouldn't be treated equally. Think about what that family wants in that article I linked. Their lawyer said that the couple is not concerned about the money, but rather wants the school to return to its roots.
“It’s about being a voice for people who are not being heard,” he said. “It’s about the failure to deliver on a promise.... This is not asking the courts to get involved in a religious issue, but this is a simple breach of contract. If you’re paying for a Catholic education, that’s what you should be getting.”
What did the school do that was so non-Catholic? It had a blackboard in a common area of the school that explained how to be an ally to the LGBTQ community. The parents say that the message “utterly fails to put any part of this explanation into perspective within mainstream Catholicism.” In other words, a student shouldn't try and be an "ally" to the LGBTQ community, or at least they can't unless they also tell them about the sins they commit by being who they are. And when the school sent out a letter calling for action and discussion of racism, in light of events recent at the time of that letter, the school did not "recognize the harm to their White, non-Diverse students by making them believe that they and their families are personally responsible for the historic harm(s) some members of our society have visited on other members of our society."
Put simply, those parents want to tell a Catholic school how to be better at being Catholic.
The culture wars and other ideological battles will always work their way into schools, both public and private, and they always have. Calling for school choice as a solution to this is just an example of a libertarian seeing the problem as a nail because he loves using a hammer.
Dammit. Messed up the link. https://www.tampabay.com/news/education/2021/07/06/academy-of-the-holy-names-is-too-woke-not-catholic-enough-lawsuit-says/
"If you really look carefully at what conservatives have to say about kids being “indoctrinated” in public schools, it gets pretty clear that what bothers them is that students are being “indoctrinated” into the wrong things, not that public schools should champion free inquiry and skepticism of all perspectives. Just see how much they want students to be taught to be patriotic and love America and see capitalism as an essential American virtue."
Yes, conservative oppose cultural relativism. Thanks for that brilliant observation.
And yes I am perfectly fine with public schools indoctrinating students on the inherent superiority of the principles and ideals found within the Declaration of Independence.
Yes, conservative oppose cultural relativism.
Without getting into the deep ideas of cultural relativism as a philosophical and anthropological idea, I would agree that making moral judgements does not depend strongly on culture. I just would say that being mindful of the cultural context of different societies and ideas about morality is important. The humorous version of this says that being open minded is good, but not if you are so open minded that your brains spill out onto the floor. Trying to understand the cultural differences of moral teaching does not have to go so far as acceptance. I would not accept as morally valid the subjugation of women, or the persecution of homosexuals and apostates, for instance, just because a particular culture has a history of doing those things.
And yes I am perfectly fine with public schools indoctrinating students on the inherent superiority of the principles and ideals found within the Declaration of Independence.
The very broad ideals you are referring to are easily agreed upon by almost all Americans. Every person being "created equal" is a fairly universal value in the West at this point. Democracy is also fairly universally prized. (I don't want to get into a "democracy" versus "republic" debate - I use the term in its most broad sense, that government has the "consent of the governed".) So, I am also fine with teaching civics and history in a way that will foster these values in students.
The disputes come when it gets to the details that distinguish between the political ideologies of the left and right in America. Conservative and libertarian economic thought (Yay free markets!) versus liberal/progressive/socialist thought ("How did you become King then? By exploiting the workers!"), a strong central government versus "states' rights" federalism, "American exceptionalism" versus teaching the flaws of our history (slavery, Native American displacement and genocide, segregation, support for anti-communist dictatorships around the world during the Cold War), "Judeo-Christian" religious traditions versus the "wall of separation between church and state", and how to teach scientific ideas that some find controversial, like evolution, geologic history and cosmology, and climate change.
Those are what this is all about. And that is what I meant when I talk about conservatives and some libertarians not liking students being "indoctrinated" into things that they disagree with, but would rather that students be "indoctrinated" into what the right believes. They want students to be taught that capitalism is inherently good, not to be skeptical of the excesses of capitalism. They want students to be taught to be patriotic, not to be skeptical of American Exceptionalism, and they want them to be taught to be religious (at least, if it is the "true" religion) and to believe that religion should be prominent in all of public life, including government, not to value true religious pluralism, let alone to be skeptical of religion. They might become non-believers!
And, of course, they don't want students to be taught tolerance and acceptance of groups that they feel shouldn't be tolerated and accepted, such as LGBTQ individuals. (Like in the situation I linked to.) Some still think that gays and trans people are icky and sinful, and they don't like children being encouraged to accept them for who they are.
"Tolerance" and public education...treating people like you want to be treated seems like something a school should expect it's students but not be responsible to teach. Those basic moral foundations should and have always come from family or religion not public school teachers. Subjective views of people's behavior choices that are not effecting your natural rights (life, liberty, and property) are again not for public schools...children should not be forced to "celebrate" such behavior or be indoctrinated to do so. Seems to me like you have an agenda you want to push...and it isn't about learning to read, math, hard science (and I don't mean "evolution or climate change" but Chemistry, Physics, and the foundations of engineering).
Public schools should be run by the community that funds them not teachers unions, university schools of "education which are just dens of cultural marxism, woke NGOs and "govt experts. Its time to give each parent a stipend to educate their child as they see fit with minimal ties like reading and math testing per year to ensure the youngster can function in society...large public schools are obsolete in the 21st century just like central banks...and most of the Federal Govt.
treating people like you want to be treated seems like something a school should expect it’s students but not be responsible to teach.
Children learn proper behavior and the attitudes that foster proper behavior from the boundaries they are set, how such behavior is modeled by adults and peers, and from what they see being rewarded and punished in other children. Any expectation a school would have for its students is being taught. It isn't even a matter of whether schools, parents, or religious communities are responsible for teaching children basic moral ideas like that. It is inevitable that any supervisory authority will contribute to the moral instruction of children, because it is responsible for supervising them and having rules and boundaries.
This occurs even without any explicit instruction on the part of the school about moral behavior. When students see a kid getting punished for having called someone a "fag" because that kid was gay, or just perceived as being gay, then that teaches them all that doing that is unacceptable.
Subjective views of people’s behavior choices that are not effecting your natural rights (life, liberty, and property) are again not for public schools…children should not be forced to “celebrate” such behavior or be indoctrinated to do so.
I don't know what you mean by students being "forced" to "celebrate" behavior choices. What examples of this occurring are you thinking about here?
Seems to me like you have an agenda you want to push…
My "agenda", if you want to call it that, is to help others recognize that everyone has an "agenda" when it comes to publicly funded education. The only way to have a true, libertarian ideal 'free market' in education would be for there to be no public funding of it at all. No one actually wants that, even the few that might say that they would, for reasons that should be obvious. "School choice", as practiced by conservatives and libertarians that advocate for it, is still riddled with ideological, cultural, and religious agendas. There is no escaping it.
The idea of giving parents the choice to find a school that fits their cultural, political, and religious worldview sounds great, until you realize that the majority of parents would be doing so with more tax money than they will ever pay themselves throughout their whole lives. The few people wealthy enough to pay more in taxes that go towards public education than what they would reap for their own children already have all the school choice they ever need by virtue of their wealth. They can either afford to live where public schools are great, or afford the private school of their choice without any vouchers. Publicly funded education will always result in the public paying for it to demand a say in that education. I don't see how anyone would ever expect anything different.
...and [my supposed agenda] isn’t about learning to read, math, hard science (and I don’t mean “evolution or climate change” but Chemistry, Physics, and the foundations of engineering).
Just stopping you right there, the theory of evolution is hard science. It is the fundamental organizing principle of biology. You can't fully understand living organisms and their relationships with each other without understanding evolution, any more than you can understand chemistry without understanding atomic theory.
And understanding Earth's climate is also hard science. I've always seen people make a distinction between "hard" and "soft" science when comparing the natural sciences to social sciences. Studying Earth's climate is part of the natural sciences, just like geology, astronomy, oceanography, meteorology, and so on.
Perhaps you mean what some call "pure" science disciplines. Physics and chemistry and biology are sometimes referred to that way because of how they focus on fundamental questions and theories within more narrow sets of phenomena. Other areas of science are more interdisciplinary that mix knowledge from multiple areas as complex systems are studied. There is a place in K-12 education to study both. Seeing how science is relevant to our lives often brings in multiple disciplines, and understanding the basics of how ecosystems and climate on Earth work is worthwhile for everyone. Environmental problems of both the past and present were often a matter of not recognizing the impacts of our industrial activities. We're all better off understanding what the tradeoffs are when it comes to our needs and desires.
Public schools should be run by the community that funds them not teachers unions...
Teacher unions vary dramatically in influence across the country. California, Chicago, New York have exceptionally strong unions, but they are quite weak in most red states, with some not even allowing teachers unions to collectively bargain at all, leaving them as only professional associations.
university schools of “education which are just dens of cultural marxism, woke NGOs and “govt experts
That sounds like a boogeyman, rather than an argument. I don't even know what people on the right mean by "cultural marxism", and I don't feel like looking it up. And the shot at "experts" is another anti-elitism talking point. You seemed to value engineering, and what is an engineer if not an expert? Expertise is valuable. Experts aren't always right, even within their narrow disciplines, but what is the alternative to having experts in education? Just having people trust their gut or go with whatever they feel like?
Its time to give each parent a stipend to educate their child as they see fit with minimal ties like reading and math testing per year to ensure the youngster can function in society...
I've already given some of my objections to this kind of idea, but if you want more, you just need to see how Florida handles its voucher programs. The public accountability is negligible for these vouchers. The students using them at private schools do not have to take the same tests mandated by the state for public school students (which includes those at charter schools). The private schools can choose from a large variety of standardized tests to give those students, making comparisons difficult, and the results are not published publicly. They are sent to a group of university researchers that compile the data to make reports to the legislature, which the legislature promptly ignores.
Republicans in Florida love accountability when it comes to public schools. Jeb! was the big innovator there in the late 90's, with his elder brother pushing No Child Left Behind nationally a few years later. But no Republicans in Florida want any kind of accountability at all for voucher schools. Somehow parents are just supposed to "know" when the private school they sent their kids to using a voucher is doing a good job, without any test data to use to compare schools, test results from their own children that they can use to compare them to other students in the state, or the schools having to design curriculum based on state standards for learning.
Is this the kind of school choice you want?
"That sounds like a boogeyman, rather than an argument. "
Only to someone studiously intent on ignoring the elephant in the teachers lounge.
Your volume of words does nothing.
"The very broad ideals you are referring to are easily agreed upon by almost all Americans"
No, unfortunately they are not. Frankly, making such a statement this far into any discussion over Critical Theory is either pig ignorant or rank dishonesty.
It is exceedingly clear that many of the proponents of Marxism here in the US will pay lip service to those ideals, while simultaneously working to undermine them at every turn.
I really need to stop wasting my time here. I put in an hour or more writing something that I thought about fairly deeply, only to have people respond with a couple sentences that ignore almost everything I wrote and go on about "Marxists."
Well, bye.
Tuccille finally disappoints by eliding the fact that mystical schools don't pay taxes, whereas men with service pistols shake down non-government lay schools. The result is in effect like the Nixon anti-Libertarian law that subsidizes communo-fascist parties with money robbed from libertarians. Courts are thus packed with appointed judges brainwashed in school by those two variants of predatory altruism. That Nixon law has for 50 years been tilting the playing field away from freedom and deeper into both flavors of socialism.
"whereas men with service pistols shake down non-government lay schools."
I have never seen a for profit primary education school. Ever. Do you have any examples?
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But choice makes indoctrination of the children harder for socialist progressives. We just can't have that.
Whether schools should introduce children to the basics of religion is one of the hottest topics in educational discussions. The church in the United States is separated from the state, which is reflected in educational policy. In public schools, where 85% of children study, religion is not taught.
Some religious families (about 5%), because of disagreement with such educational policy, teach their children at home. For example, they criticize the theory of the evolution curriculum. The situation is different in private schools. In the States, for example, a network of Catholic schools is very widespread.
The onslaught of progressive ideology in public education as consequences. People will find a way to protect their kids from the leftist indoctrination so many receive in our schools. Intelligent educational software has been very slow in coming but with increasing levels of demand, we should start to see much better products that will enable home schooling to expand and flourish. Charter schools will continue to grow and give public school children a better opportunity to learn and expand. Many of our worst public schools, and their leftist faculty will simply die on the vine.