Reason Roundup

Ron DeSantis Threatens To Capsize Cruise Ship Industry if Boats Require Vaccinations

Plus: Poll finds belief in QAnon conspiracy theory high, bill would nix double-taxing of teleworkers, and more…

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Cruise control. The already-battered cruise ship industry is now caught between conflicting federal and state rules in Florida. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says 95 percent of passengers must be vaccinated for cruise ships to sail again without certain restrictions. But Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said requiring any passenger vaccinations "violates the spirit" of his executive order forbidding vaccine passports and of a recently passed Florida law banning vaccine passports set to take effect July 1. Asking for passengers' vaccine statuses could subject cruise ships to massive fines, he said.

The Celebrity Edge is supposed to be the first to voyage again with non-volunteer passengers, after U.S. cruise ships have been docked for more than a year by the COVID-19 pandemic. Celebrity Cruises announced Wednesday that the CDC had approved it taking off from Fort Lauderdale on June 26, so long as 95 percent of passengers and 98 percent of the crew were vaccinated against COVID-19.

Celebrity Cruises said it will require all crew members to be vaccinated, along with all U.S. passengers ages 16 and older for now, and as of August 1, all guests ages 12 and above.

Not so fast, said DeSantis. "Celebrity Cruises' vaccine requirements violate the spirit of the Governor's Emergency Order 21-81, which prohibits vaccine passports and protects the fundamental rights of Floridians – including the right to medical privacy," DeSantis said in a statement. "The policy would also be a violation of Florida's recently enacted law banning vaccine passports, SB 2006, effective July 1. Companies doing business in Florida, including Celebrity Cruises, should immediately cease to impose such discriminatory policies upon individuals. Companies that violate this law would be subject to a fine of $5,000 each time they require a customer to present a 'vaccine passport' for service."

How Celebrity Cruises will respond is still unknown. "One cruise company, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings, has threatened to move its ships out of Florida if the law keeps them from requiring passengers to be vaccinated," The Washington Post reported.

Some have been framing Florida's stance in this battle over customer vaccination requirements as a boon for civil liberties and small government. But state government interfering in what safety rules private businesses can or can't set for customers is just big government authoritarianism of another variety. Ideally, whether or not a company requires customers to be vaccinated would be left up to individual companies.

Of course, things are complicated here by the CDC. The health agency says cruise ships that don't require most passengers and staff to be vaccinated must conduct all-volunteer test cruises before accepting paying passengers and must still enforce mask rules and social distancing requirements.

It's unclear how cruise ships would treat vaccination requirements absent the federal health agency's rules and Florida's meddling. Conceivably, some cruise lines would welcome unvaccinated passengers right away and some would not (or perhaps set different requirements for different ships), allowing them to appeal to customers of diverging concerns and risk levels. Unfortunately, both the federal government and Florida's government are incapable of letting businesses and customers make this decision for themselves.


FREE MINDS

Support high for satanic pedophile conspiracy theory. Fifteen percent of people in a new Public Religion Research Institute poll say "the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation." That conspiracy theory is a core part of the QAnon movement. Belief in this statement among Republican respondents was at 23 percent; for Democrats, it was 8 percent and for independents, 14 percent.

The poll also saw 15 percent of all respondents agreeing that "because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country." Broken down by political ideology, agreement was highest among Republicans (28 percent), followed by independents (13 percent) and Democrats (7 percent).


FREE MARKETS

Multistate Worker Tax Fairness Act would prevent double-taxing for teleworkers. Soon-to-be introduced legislation in the U.S. Senate would ensure that workers whose employer is headquartered in a state where they neither live nor work will not be taxed in that state. It's sponsored by New Hampshire Democratic Sens. Maggie Hassan and Jeanne Shaheen and "establishes a simple, uniform federal standard based on a worker's physical presence," explains their press release.

Called the Multistate Worker Tax Fairness Act, it "prohibits a state from imposing an income tax on the compensation a nonresident earns when that person is not physically in the state, and it ensures that people with out-of-state employers who telework, or whose job requires them to occasionally work in another state, do not have to pay out-of-state income taxes."

Similar legislation was introduced in 2014, 2016, and 2020, but failed to advance.


QUICK HITS

• The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit has thrown out a case challenging a federal ban on bump stocks.

• The New York Times looks at the movement to remove highways from the middle of cities: "As midcentury highways reach the end of their life spans, cities across the country are having to choose whether to rebuild or reconsider them. And a growing number, like Rochester, are choosing to take them down."

• Freedom needs better stories, suggests John Hood for Reason.

• "Senate Republicans are poised to block the creation of a special commission to study the deadly Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol," notes the Associated Press. "A vote on the procedural motion was bumped to Friday."

• Why didn't California's "red flag" law stop the San Jose shooter?

• Kurt Loder reviews A Quiet Place Part II.

• Tennessee's bathroom sign law sponsor admits it comes with criminal penalties. The law—which was signed by Gov. Bill Lee on May 17—says businesses that won't strictly segregate bathrooms by sex must post signs announcing this. Republican Rep. Tim Rudd, who sponsored the law, said in March that it "does not provide any fines or penalties." But Rudd now admits that businesses that don't comply could be subject to jail time and fines, since the measure was inserted into a part of the state's building code that makes it a misdemeanor crime.

NEXT: Senate Republicans Released a $928 Billion Infrastructure Plan. Biden Says It Still Doesn't Spend Enough.

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  1. …I signed an Executive Order to protect the rights and liberties of individuals and businesses by prohibiting the state and its political subdivisions — including public schools — from imposing mask mandates in our state.

    Superhero vigilantes hardest hit.

    1. We just ignored that shit anyway.

      1. Largely true, but not so for kids attending public schools.

        1. School boards and unelected county bureaucrats bypassed parental rights and implemented in public schools what is tantamount to child abuse, all the while still collecting a paycheck while the economy was deliberately destroyed. You’ve been on here cheerleading for this crap the entire time. Get bent.

          1. DeSantis thinks he’s a god. Of course he’s believing all the crap Trump’s feeding him about the presidential election in 2024, too. Idiot. He needs to stay out of private business’ business practices. Not his call to make. Florida will be rid of him in the mid term elections because he’s worthless and taking working credit for blind good luck during the pandemic.

            1. – Your response has nothing to do with what I posted.
              – Desantis is doing what his constituents want within the confines of the law.
              – WTF does that have to do with Trump?
              – Protecting private businesses from total destruction and arbitrary “statutes” is somehow bad? Get out of here with that shit.
              – The “Pandemic” is anything but. Go peddle that crap elsewhere.

    2. Idaho’s Governor Little is a pretty good leader.

      McGeachin is a total nut job who is always engaging in political theater. In this case, banning mask mandates in a state that is already quite liberal about not imposing mask mandates. And where, as Idaho Bob points out, lots of people never complied with the mandates or selectively comply in a fairly common sense manner.

    3. Update: Governor Little has already rescinded McGeachin’s executive order.

  2. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit has thrown out a case challenging a federal ban on bump stocks.

    President Trump finally has a court win.

    1. I better cut my belt loops off.

    2. How is that a win for Trump? It’s a win for mass murdering shooters, but not Trump. Trump doesn’t do wet work, he incites it.

      1. By “wet work” do you mean a better economy than his predecessor or successor?

  3. The New York Times looks at the movement to remove highways from the middle of cities…

    Drive-through cities will be a thing of the past. Next it’s up to flyover states to clear their airspace.

    1. Belarus style.

    2. So is this how the infrastructure is going to be spent?

      And by infrastructure bill, I mean the 5% of it that’s earmarked for infrastructure spending.

      1. It costs money to tear down freeways.

        1. Turning them into hobo camps, I mean, “affordable housing” is free.

          1. Let’s set up cameras, turn it into Frogger, and charge people to watch. That could probably pay for the rest of the roads in the city.

          2. That free housing apparently costs $2500 per month.

            1. Under-passes and tunnels already built (if not paid for).

              1. I was referring to this gem from yesterday:
                https://reason.com/2021/05/27/study-mask-mandates-didnt-help-slow-spread-of-covid-19/#comment-8923715

                …the high public cost of LA’s first sanctioned campground — more than $2,600 per tent, per month…

    3. It’s a trade off.

      San Francisco had an ugly freeway that collapsed in an earthquake and was never replaced.

      The Embarcadero became a beautiful, strollable place to hang out. But try to drive through the city to get to the Golden Gate Bridge, plan on budgeting an extra hour of travel time; two extra hours on a holiday weekend.

      1. New York City wrangled over what to do with the West Side Highway until some of it collapsed. Problem solved. At the cost of a trucker’s life or two.

    4. Hmmm. When the interstate highways were first built, by-passed towns practically dried up and blew away. This bug is now a feature? Must be part of the Green New Deal.

  4. Senate Republicans are poised to block the creation of a special commission to study the deadly Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol…

    It wouldn’t have saved the Democrats from a midterm disaster anyway.

    1. The only deadly part was a cop killing a protestor.

      1. Huh? It killed my Jan 6 afternoon buzz. No empathy.

      2. Protestor? They killed a traitor, yes.

        1. True, comrade. Never challenge the state, right?

          BTW, where were you in 2016?

        2. Shooting trespassers on public property is totes cool.

          1. If she hadn’t been shot, she would have overthrown the republic.

        3. I wouldn’t go that far, but if you wish to label all protestors as traitors, knock yourself out.

          …oh wait, is this one of those times where the ones you AGREE with are peaceful protestors and the ones you disagree with are traitors who should be killed for trespassing?

      3. If you blow off the death of Officers Brian Sicknick, Howard Liebengood, and Jeffrey Smith.

        https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/i-couldn-t-stay-quiet-anymore-mother-capitol-officer-who-n1268732

        The mother of Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick, who died following the Jan. 6 riot at the Capitol, met with Republican senators on Thursday to urge them to support a commission to investigate the attack.

        Gladys Sicknick, Sandra Garza, who was Sicknick’s longtime partner, and two police officers who faced the riot that day, traveled between Republican Senate offices to deliver their pleas ahead of a possible vote on the legislation on Thursday afternoon.

        1. Sicknick was the guy whose head got smashed in with a fire extinguisher, right?

          1. No, Sicknick was the guy who was killed by pepper spray.

            Nobody knows what happened to the body of the guy beaten to death with the fire extinguisher.

        2. Yeah, so?

          1. Actually no. That was an early rumor (& of course reported as fact for a long time) but contradicted by the coroner.
            There was some really stupid shit done at the capitol that day, including that video of an officer getting crushed in a doorway. But Sicknick died of a stroke the next day, no injuries from Jan 6.

            1. Yes, we know. We’re just mocking Dee.

        3. “If you blow off the death of Officers Brian Sicknick, Howard Liebengood, and Jeffrey Smith.”

          The ones not caused by it? Yeah, I will blow them off.

          “Gladys Sicknick, Sandra Garza, who was Sicknick’s longtime partner, and two police officers who faced the riot that day, traveled between Republican Senate offices to deliver their pleas ahead of a possible vote on the legislation on Thursday afternoon.”

          …and?

          The deaths were not caused by it. He was fine after it. He died the next day due to a non-related situation.

          1. All the coroner said is that he was not directly killed by the rioters. Nobody has said it was non-related.

            The deaths of Sicknick, Liebengood, and Smith are clearly _related_ to the Capitol riots.

            1. GFY

            2. “clearly _related_ to”

              Only because Sicknick died in the same city. Fuck, this is your HO2 debacle all over again. You doubled down on that back then too.

              Are you eventually going to claim your account was hacked this time too?

            3. Nobody says it was related either. And even if the stress of the day was the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak, so what? He must have had an unknown pre-existing condition.
              If someone gets excited because his team won a football game and has a heart attack, did the players on his favorite team kill him?

              1. _I_ say it was related. Because I am not a partisan hack, and I have common sense, and I can see plain truths.

                The analogy is off. They weren’t attending a football game, they were doing their jobs. Also it is a fucked-up, callous, partisan, self-serving way to look at the death of three police officers.

                1. You have a death wish.

                2. I’m no partisan here. I think the rioters were a bunch of morons not helping things at all. There is nothing plain in what you say. You are making big assumptions based on your gut feeling and prejudices. There is no good reason to believe that the events of Jan 6 substantially contributed to his death. At most they might have been a trigger for a health problem that was going to crop up at some point anyway. It’s fucking insane that people are so attached to this narrative. People just die sometimes. And while it is indeed unlikely that the two specific events would coincide so closely, but it is very likely that some unlikely thing will happen close to any event involving a lot of people.

                  1. His “common sense” and “plain truths” have already been wrong twice… yet he persists.

                    He continued the fire extinguisher claims for 3 months, continuing to repeat them for 9 days after even CNN retracted the claim and he was linked to the retraction multiple times.

                    He then switched to bear spray which he held on to for over a month despite most of us linking to the coroners report.

                    I don’t think he knows what plain truths mean.

                  2. And the two officers who committed suicide? That just happened to be a coincidence?

                    1. There are a lot of reasons for suicide. Your argument is essentially these two guys were doing fine but the events of that day so traumatized them that their only recourse was to end their lives? Simultaneously? Okay.

                3. LOL. This is a hilarious response. Thanks White Mike.

            4. You want them to prove a negative? Your job is to prove he died due to the riot. You are already 0 for 2. But your feelings say it is true.

              Youre a biased idiot. Lol.

            5. By the way. Good work working suicide into your death counts.

            6. “All the coroner said is that he was not directly killed by the rioters. Nobody has said it was non-related.”

              Nobody said aliens did not cause it, either. And it was just as likely.

      4. So convenient to overlook one of their own trampled to death by their own and the other police officers injured, hospitalized, and bear sprayed.

        1. Not overlooked. Large crowds that devolve into riots or mob mentality will have casualties. The same has happened at Walmarts during black friday. Many years ago at a Who concert.

    2. Why do get the feeling ENB is pro waste of money on a political commission.

      1. And by the way… it was only deadly due to the actions of a single Capitol officer.

        1. BTW you are grossly misinformed, spinning the truth, or straight up lying. Take your pick.

          500 arrests so far – https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 If you weren’t so obtuse you would realize those members of Congress who aided and abetted the Jan 6 debacle are the ones opposing the investigation. Of course they are: they don’t want to be implicated.

          1. Now do the list for Portland, Minneapolis, NYC, Seattle, Atlanta, and Chicago.

          2. None of which refutes the assertion that the actions of one capital officer is what turned the protest deadly.

        2. What she and the others did was incredibly dangerous and stupid. They knew that the building and people in it were guarded by armed officers authorized to use deadly force. I don’t know if the shooting was justified but in a situation like that anything can happen and it did.

          One person pulled the trigger but they all have a share in responsibility for her death.

      2. Because she is, due to her TDS.

    3. It wouldn’t have saved the Democrats from a midterm disaster anyway.

      I personally think the whole thing, if they pull it off, is going to make the Dems look petty, vindictive and hypocritical, and the Repubs are being very stupid trying to squash it. But Repubs gonna Repub.

      1. It’s probably a hedge for 2024. The Party might not like Trump, but they strongly prefer winning with him than losing with him, and as of today he seems the likely final candidate.

        I think there’s enough dereliction of duty rumors floating around about Trump on that day to serve as a boat anchor on Trump’s candidacy were they confirmed or accepted into the official version of events.

        1. I agree that that’s the thinking on both sides, but neither side is being very smart (surprise, surprise).

          The Dems want to push two narratives:

          1) Trump incited the riot
          2) The riot was a pre-planned terrorist attack

          Both can’t be true, but they will push both anyway.

          And now we have the video of Viking-hat Guy conversing calmly with the capitol police about how they’re going to be let in and Viking-hat Guy calling for everyone to be peaceful.

          As it stands now, Jan 6 can serve Dem narratives because most people have no details. A year-long congressional investigation is going to lead to everyone having the details, and this stuff just isn’t going to stand up to scrutiny, especially after a whole summer of Dems rationalizing and even inciting (per their arguments re Trump) Antifa violence.

          But the Repubs are also dumb, and can’t help but scream out “STOP PLAYING FOOTBALL WITH YOUR DYNAMITE BOXES!” (Cue line about never interrupting your enemy when . . . )

          If the Repubs successfully block the investigation, then the details won’t come out, and the talking point for the next 18 months will be “Repubs blocked the investigation into the terrorist attack.”

      2. Repubs potentially gonna be charged depending on what investigations turn up. Don’t you wish you had the power to veto your own investigation and prosecution of a crime you committed? Nothing to see here, no we aren’t going to investigate (me) Jan 6th…

  5. …. that businesses that don’t comply could be subject to jail time and fines,..

    What else is new?

    1. Nice restaurant you got here…

    2. DeSantis is just spoilin’ for a lawsuit. The cruise industry (big money) may very well grant his wish and withhold campaign contributions to sweeten the bargain. He’s going to be sorry he stuck his nose into mega corporation business.

      1. Sure he is, you stupid tankie.

  6. the CDC had approved it taking off from Fort Lauderdale on June 26, so long as 95 percent of passengers and 98 percent of the crew were vaccinated

    Wait. This is Science. Why is it 95% instead of 97.4%? Does a child below the age of 2.2 really count as a “passenger”? And doesn’t the type of vaccine factor in at all? What if everyone had just that crappy J&J?

    1. You are confusing Covid Science with regular science.

      1. Ah, yes. Apparently it’s still in the phlogiston phase.

        1. I love Reason claiming DESANTIS is the bad guy here, not the CDC.

          1. Libertarians hate all passports. Except vaccine passports.

            1. Example # 1,473 that ENB is NOT a libertarian.

              1. No vaccine passports or Green Cards needed for border jumpers, but you better believe that ENB wants to see your vaccine passport if you’re going on a cruise.

          2. You have one government forcing businesses to require papers, and another government forcing businesses to not require papers, and ENB supports the first one.

            1. Again, libertarianism — like free speech — is dying because the people who are supposed to be protecting it are just whores who will sell it out for a buck.

              1. Somebody wants a free cruise. (And probably a pirate gang-bang fantasy)

          3. Haven’t they signed on with the ” stopping government from forcing mandatory CRT instruction violates the government’s 1A rights”?

            1. Yes. That was example # 1,470.

          4. From a libertarian perspective DeSantis should tell the cruise ships to ‘sail at your own risk’ rather than say no quotas allowed.

            1. He should arm the cruise lines and declare they are part of the State’s militia and therefore under his regulatory control. Note: Not a letter of marque – they aren’t aren’t allowed to pirate vessels, unless Congress grants them that.

          5. Re-read what ENB wrote. She lays blame at the feet of both the CDC and DeSantis.

            1. Too late, the narrative is already out of the bag.
              Unless ENB or some other Reason writer writes “DESANTIS IS TOTALLY RIGHT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS TOTALLY WRONG” then they are shills for Team Blue. No nuance allowed!

              1. Hey, the socialist is defending vaccine passports. Or are you going to actually post you are against them? Because you always seem to condemn freedom and then deny you are against mandates. Yet you never seem to actually say you are against government control. It is soooooo weird.

              2. God forbid we go for a middle ground compromise in leu of a full blown lawsuit. Go ahead, DeSantis: take it to the SCOTUS. You will lose…

          6. He’s dumber than the CDC.

        2. Actually, more like alchemy.

          1. You *might* find this amusing.

      2. Oh, come on now! Science is science, no matter what it involves the study of

  7. The New York Times looks at the movement to remove highways from the middle of cities…

    A proven way to boost the economy is to prevent customers from getting to businesses.

    1. And goods from getting to those businesses to sell.

      1. What do you think trains are for? Now that super high speed rail will be everywhere we will hardly need cars at all.

    2. Long Beach found this out good and hard. The made their streets “bike friendly” meaning they narrowed the lanes and removed parking. Business revenue in the area dropped by about 35%

      1. Houston did the same. They built a light rail line on Main street, turning a four lane busy road into a two lane street that doesn’t allow left turns. It absolutely murdered every business on the line outside of Downtown proper

    3. You’d think the “libertarians” here would support removing the huge subsidization of suburbs and bullshit. We’d be far better off if we didn’t constantly over expand them and have to contribute to their already enormous maintenance bill.

      1. “You’d think the “libertarians” here would support removing the huge subsidization of suburbs and bullshit…”

        We’d really support someone who knew what he was posting about instead of un-educated lefty half-wits like you.

      2. “People shouldn’t be allowed to live in nice houses in clean neighborhoods that I can’t afford.”

      3. Tell us about your domicile, hicklib.

      4. Who is “we” you fvckin moron. Nobody is paying or expanding or maintaining except the people who want to live there

        1. Wait. The GOP is dead against education, social programs – hello all you people collecting unemployment, social security, Medicare, subsidized housing/food/child care, pandemic relief checks, and business money to pay employees to keep them on payroll. Of course they want better roads and bridges: goods the corporations create MUST get to markets. Of course they want clean water through good pipes in their states like AZ who suck it out of the Colorado River because they have no water of their own in the entire state. Of course the businesses don’t want the gas lines to explode in their bars, restaurants, rentals, etc. Those need to be good too. But education? Child care so people can work? Decent housing or child food assistance? WHAT’S IN IT FOR ME? ME!ME!ME!

          1. Of course they want clean water through good pipes in their states like AZ who suck it out of the Colorado River because they have no water of their own in the entire state.

            Thanks for confirming Colorado can cut off all 4.5 million acre feet from California, you stupid hicklib.

          2. Here are some interesting facts for you on the AZ water supply.
            http://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts

    4. “Business” is racist.

      In a righteous, anti-racist world people get what they want just by wishing.

  8. “Giant U.S. tech investment bill nears Senate passage”
    […]
    “The Fremont Democrat has spent years developing his Endless Frontier Act, which directs more than $100 billion over five years into spurring research and development around the country. The bill creates a new tech-focused division within the National Science Foundation charged with funding projects in groundbreaking fields such as biotech, artificial intelligence and quantum computing….”
    https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Giant-U-S-tech-investment-bill-nears-Senate-16208300.php

    Because the government is so much better at picking where to spend development money!

    1. The good news is biden is blocking development of the hardware the new technology will be used along with as he blocks drilling for rare earth minerals needed in these new electronics. So at least we will be able to give this tech to China to manufacture.

      1. “So at least we will be able to give this tech to China to manufacture.”

        Maybe not… https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-26/biden-s-asia-czar-says-era-of-engagement-with-xi-s-china-is-over?

        As I wrote yesterday, someone in .Gov is starting to beat the “We don’t like China,” drum

        1. I wonder if US people had more to do with covid release than initially suspected

      2. Major reserves in the world exist in China, California, India, Brazil, Australia, South Africa, and Malaysia. However, China accounts for over 95 percent of the world’s production of rare earths. Therefore, having control of these elements puts China at a powerful position.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_industry_in_China#:~:text=Major%20reserves%20in%20the%20world%20exist%20in%20China%2C,these%20elements%20puts%20China%20at%20a%20powerful%20position.

        Tell us again how Biden controls this? Get a grip on being intelligent.

      3. The problem is that the refining process creates a huge amount of toxic waste. So nobody wants to build the plants in their backyard.

    2. Endless Frontier Spending Act

  9. But Rudd now admits that businesses that don’t comply could be subject to jail time and fines, since the measure was inserted into a part of the state’s building code that makes it a misdemeanor crime.

    How often does one get the chance to signal to his base using building codes?

  10. the movement to remove highways from the middle of cities

    “Looks like a case of *** sunglasses *** highway robbery.”

    1. I sometimes wonder how stupid people are. The highways weren’t originally built inside cities. Businesses and some residential built around highways. Moving them will end at the same problem.

      1. What the fuck are you smoking you dumbass? They weren’t built in the middle of cities?

        Look at ANY east coast/midwest city and tell me they weren’t built inside them. They are responsible for the decimation of large swathes of city.

        Seriously, you’re dumb normally but this takes the cake for extreme stupidity.

        1. Much better if older cities had never updated their roads since the days of ox carts. That way the daily flux of millions of people and tons of goods would arrive at the city limits and then magically disperse where needed.

        2. “…They are responsible for the decimation of large swathes of city…”

          To lefty ignoramuses, being able to transport goods is “decimation”. Fucking lefties are stupid that way. Along with many others.

        3. Better to maintain cities a ghettoes with no access to jobs and services. Right, shitlunches?

        4. Look at ANY east coast/midwest city and tell me they weren’t built inside them. They are responsible for the decimation of large swathes of city.

          Urban renewal projects did more to decimate and re-engineer urban landscapes than any highway project ever did. But you’d know that if you actually knew anything about urban history, especially since you’re cherry-picking the midwest and east coast while ignoring the trans-Mississippi west entirely.

        5. Lol. No they weren’t. Originally they were built on the outskirts and cities expanded due to the highways around the highways. Cities have since expanded those highways in the city.

          But the point you are too fucking stupid to understand is the cities grew around the highways. So moving them will just end up with cities around New highways in 20 years dumbfuck.

          1. It’s a mix, actually. In CA, the interstates plowed right through the middle of some major cities like Oakland and LA, and even SF to a certain extent. Definite bad impact on neighborhoods, but I still think it’s better than the European model of freeways only ever taking you to the outskirts of a major city.

            1. I’ll admit I am biased to flyover country and how those cities expanded as I find most urban cities on the coasts to be full of people I wouldn’t ever choose to hang out with.

              But that again was their decision. Moving highways out of the highly clustered regional areas of the East coast and weaving around each large city would be a great expense, and I can guarantee you will just lead to cities growing along those lines. That is the main point. Highways will always attract more city growth around them. Moving them will serve virtually no purpose.

        6. Jesse – “The highways weren’t originally built inside cities.”

          Tony’s sock – “Look at ANY east coast/midwest city and tell me they weren’t built inside them.”

          facepalm.jpg

          You do know that most of those cities were built long before the highway system. Jesse is 100% correct to say the weren’t originally built inside.

        7. I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Of the three freeways built here as part of the 1950’s highway projects, only I-96 may have been built on undeveloped land and had the city grow around it. US 131 was made over into an 8-lane freeway, running right through downtown. That must have required bulldozing high-density neighborhoods and even a swath of the century-old business district. I-196 ran north of the densest part of the old city, but it’s south of neighborhoods built in the 1920’s, with single-family houses on tiny lots. (I live there.) I don’t know what was knocked down to build it, but there was city on both sides of the route thirty years before it was built.

          Now, there are cities larger than Grand Rapids where the interstate projects began with a belt loop circling the city beyond most of the existing suburbs, and they connected the inter-city freeways to this and bypassed the city. Indianapolis appears to be an example. But there’s also a “wagon wheel” pattern in many cities: there’s a belt route circling the city, but the freeways don’t stop there, they continue on through the old city, passing near the center (but probably through a decaying poor neighborhood rather than the expensive areas).

    2. I always wondered how they got the rivers to flow thru downtown. Did they dig the rivers before they built the highways, or vice-versa?

  11. The poll also saw 15 percent of all respondents agreeing that “because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.”

    The Tree of Liberty craves its natural manure.

    1. I wonder what percentage of Democrats believe Russia rigged the 2016 election?

      I mean, QAnon, for their faults, does have the whole Jeffrey Epstein thing to defend their views somewhat. Odd how few names attached to him have been made public and how the investigation seems to gone ice cold.

      1. Personally, I’ve always regarded QAnon as a joke. But if it’s sufficient to provoke the peasants into storming the capitol, hey, I ain’t complaining.

        Doing the right thing for the wrong reason is still doing the right thing.

        1. Storming the Capital was the wrong thing. It accomplished nothing except giving the Commies….er, Democrats a club with which to bash Trump, conservatives, Republicans, libertarians, and white folks. It may be a factor in the 2022 and 2024 elections as well. The Donkeys are much, much better at demonization of their enemies, and this is pure gold for that.

          1. The bashing only works if you are already blindly accepting narratives the media produces. Game is already out on those people.

          2. That remains to be seen. Sure, this was a bunch of over-excited yahoos who wound up mostly shooting themselves in the foot.

            But they at least proved it could be done, and the next group that tries it may be more conscientious, determined and effective.

            Nor am I complaining about the results. If Trump had won, he would have spent his second term like he spent his first – getting jacked around and thwarted until his term ran out.

            Now, Team Parasite is barricaded behind razor wire fences, protected only by a military they don’t like, and that doesn’t like them in return.

            Yeah, I think the situation definitely has some possibilities!

        2. Way to out yourself as a traitor. Nice.

          1. Man, I’m so glad chipper and sarcasmic joined your team.

            1. I propose we call them the Apache Party.

          2. Again, where were you in December 2016?

          3. “Way to out yourself as a traitor. Nice.”

            Wanna bet this piece of shit is still calling the protest ‘an insurrection’?
            Please tell us, oh pathetic piece of shit, how anyone was going to overthrow thee republic armed with ny-ties. I’m sure you have an amusing explanation.

          4. “Out yourself as a traitor”

            Remember how raspberry and his ilk spent 4 years, calling themselves the “Resistance”, saying “not my president”, shouting that “Dissent is the highest form of patriotism”, and rioting in the streets?

            Just look at him now.

            They aren’t just acting hypocritical, the hypocrisy is what defines Tony, chemleft and White Mike. It’s who and what they are.

      2. ENB thinks Epstein killed himself.

      3. I think most of the fake libertarians at Reason still believe this, along with all the bullshit in the “Steele Dossier”. If they don’t they sure are terrified to admit it!

        Lizzie the Lezzie believed this crap so much in fact that if you’ll recall she spent months and months trying to do internet research on some Russian woman who was allegedly in Russian prison and connected to Trump somehow. Lezzie actually seriously believed that this woman was the key to proving that the entire theory and everything in the Steele Dossier was actually true. Not surprisingly she stopped giving updates on how her research was going after a while, ROFL.

    2. Electrolytes?

    3. I always wonder what percent of those surveyed with questions like this are just fucking with the pollsters.

      1. When you mute half the commentators, you post things that have already been discussed, making you look stupid.

        1. Thats not what makes him look stupid

          1. Man, double burn. good job guys.

      2. Possibly. But based on what I’ve seen about Team Red lately, it is only a slight exaggeration.

        1. LOL. I love how you feign between faking neutrality and being so explicitly biased. Let’s everyone know how much of a joke you continue to be.

  12. Soon-to-be introduced legislation in the U.S. Senate would ensure that workers whose employer is headquartered in a state where they neither live nor work will not be taxed in that state.

    Yeah, that’s going to pass.

  13. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says 95 percent of passengers must be vaccinated for cruise ships to sail again without certain restrictions.

    Did the CDC always have this power or is it a recent grab?

    1. CDC works 24/7 to protect America from health, safety and security threats, both foreign and in the U.S.

      Sheesh, better change the name of the organization. How about the Centers for Continual Protection?

    2. Funny, the headline says that a Republican governor is a big meanie for forcing companies to not require private health information from customers. Did Reason misrepresent the issue again?

      1. Eeoc already ruled businesses can require employees to hand over medical information. This is clown world.

        1. Free market. If you don’t like it then go get another job snowflake.

          1. Like you know what a job is.

          2. Okay. So what other conditions should a private company be allowed to screen for? Race? Disability?

            1. They already do. TB tests, flu shots, a statement that you are able to return to work after a disability. What will slow them down with this is that is still EUA. Once that is over a lot of places will require it.

    3. CDC “guidelines” carry the full force of the law. They’re an unelected legislature on matters of public health.

  14. The health agency says cruise ships that don’t require most passengers and staff to be vaccinated must conduct all-volunteer test cruises before accepting paying passengers

    WTF? How about a paid cruise at your own risk?

    1. It has been determined that the cruise industry has not suffered enough, they must now give away cruises for free for some reason not mentioned.

      1. Just wait for the investigations into the pseudo-slavery of the staffs.

        1. Once the greens outlaw engines, who do you think will row?

        2. Floating sweatshops.

  15. “Fifteen percent of people in a new Public Religion Research Institute poll say “the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation.” That conspiracy theory is a core part of the QAnon movement. Belief in this statement among Republican respondents was at 23 percent; for Democrats, it was 8 percent and for independents, 14 percent.”

    Higher percentages of them would have voted to rename the Capitol “Cappy McCapitolface”.

    You’re being trolled. I repeat: QAnon is meme started at 4chan, and like everything that comes from 4chan, if you take it seriously, the joke is on you.

    The most ridiculous conspiracy theory going today are the tin-foil hat progressives who genuinely believe that QAnon is a serious threat to society–and the progressive media spreading this ridiculous garbage should all be ashamed of themselves.

    1. Next you’re going to tell me that the “OK” sign isn’t actually a white power thing.

      1. “Okay” sign means are you okay to continue the dive, not to be confused with the “thumbs up” signal, which means end the dive immediately.

        Huh, now that I read the wikipedia article I find it means dozens of things. Just wait until the next woke person confronts me, hah!

        1. You’ll be arguing with the willfully ignorant, if not actually mentally ill.

    2. When I was in sex ed class in a religious junior high. The teacher, a minister’s wife in training, had a ballot box on her desk, and everyone was required to put a 3×5 card in it at the beginning of class. The idea was that if you had a question that you didn’t want to ask in public, she would answer the question in class–no matter how embarrassing–and no one would know it was you who wrote the question. You never know. Someone else might have the same question as you!

      The very first day, there was a question by someone who lost a hot dog inside herself days before and needed help getting it out.

      Another guy had ethical questions about the consensual nature of his physical relationship with his dog.

      Another girl didn’t have crabs but wanted to know if there was a place where she could get them so she could spread it around.

      There were questions about gerbils, how to properly lubricate a tennis ball, how to perform autoerotic asphyxiation safely, etc., etc.

      You need to know when to take things seriously and when to laugh.

      1. Were there any facetious questions?

        Asking for a friend.

      2. They need training to be a minister’s wife? My wife is untrainable. These guys are on to something.

    3. the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation.

      What’s inaccurate about this statement?

      1. A minority of the group are actually atheists who practice bestiality.

      2. Now that I think about it, it was a trick question all along. The Satan-worshiping pedophiles don’t run the global child sex trafficking operation, they hire an Epstein to do it for them.

      3. It omits the insider traders and bug-eating fetishists.

      4. They worship themselves, not Satan?

        1. That is what Satanists do actually.

    4. Honestly, I don’t know any conservative or libertarian types who believe QAnon is a real thing. I’m sure those people exist to some extent; I just haven’t met any.

      I do know several progressives who believe that a large swath of the Republican party believes in this nonsense. And they certainly know more about the nonsense than any Republicans I know. They are almost always the crazy lefties – people who only get their news from NPR and MSNBC, actually believe antifa is ‘just an idea’, that the capitol riot was an insurrection that threatened our democracy . . .

      1. It’s like watching professional wrestling.

        The people who watch it know that it isn’t real. And people who talk to wrestling fans and say, “How could you watch that–don’t you know it isn’t real?!” are making fools of themselves.

        If someone tells you they really enjoyed watching, Saving Private Ryan, no one says, “Really? Don’t you know that wasn’t real? Tom Hanks was never in any danger!”.

        It’s the same thing with QAnon, far as I can tell.

        QAnon is like watching Ancient Aliens. They make it out like it’s a documentary, and that’s part of the fun for them. Some people read fantasy books about dragons and magic. Yes, they know it isn’t real, but if you want to have fun with a fantasy epic, you make it as realistic as possible, like they did with the the first few seasons of Game of Thrones.

        I suspect for most people, QAnon is a fantasy epic with a cast of real characters, speculative historical fiction set in the present, alternate history, etc. People cosplaying at Comicon. Being made fun of by people who don’t get it is part of the fun–especially when you’re trolling people who are out of the loop.

        Incidentally, punk rock was like that in the beginning. You’d go to the mall with your crew, and the security guards would swarm you and your friends on sight. It was fun and hilarious. Tough guys started wearing ear rings to troll somebody into questioning their manhood. Trolling square is fun. And there is nothing squarer than progressive media right now. They’re making fools of themselves.

    5. the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation

      I just LOVE this! 15%? c’mon…every person I know would check this box. Best answer ever!

      If the answer was “cornholing zombies from outer space” I’d check that too!

      If it was between zombies and pedophiles, then I’d actually have a conundrum.

      Anybody who thinks that 15% number means anything serious is completely out of their fucking mind.

    6. “the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation.”

      Your problem is in assuming the one thing has to do with the other. It is true that we are controlled by a group of Satan-worshiping pedophiles, but it’s just a coincidence that they’re Satan-worshiping pedophiles.

  16. I’m pretty sure that I would say yes to the question about Satan worshiping pedophiles, even though I think it’s crazy nonsense, just because it’s funny. I can’t be the only one.

    1. “No one can deny the possibility that ….”

    2. Nope, not the only one. It’s hilarious.

    3. I most certainly would answer in the affirmative, while adding that they are controlled by the Lizard people from Mars.

    4. That like borat cutting out the parts where people say “oh its borat I’m going to say some crazy things so I get picked” and then just show the crazy thing that was said

    5. Well sure, they’re definitely satan worshiping pedophiles, but it’s not like an organized cabal or anything. Just garden variety progressive degenerates acting independently of any central leadership.

      Conclusion: Haha.

  17. Support high for satanic pedophile conspiracy theory.

    What percentage of that 15% were just fucking with the pollster?

    1. Wait ! I know! It’s 97% , isn’t it?

    2. Lizardman’s Constant is much higher on QAnon. Why is this surprising to anybody?

  18. I suppose Desantis’s enforcement of FL law could be overridden by a legitimate application of the interstate commerce clause. On the other hand, ENB is arguing against states rights and for internal travel papers by siding with the CDC regs. It is difficult to say that the cruise lines are not doing this under some kind of duress.

    1. ENB is arguing against states rights and for internal travel papers by siding with the CDC regs.

      Of course she is. It makes perfect sense when you consider that she, along with most of the rest of the Reason staff, are leftists that disdain the very idea of personal liberty.

      1. I mean, I guess if you’re one of the usual fascists here you could compare Reason writers to “leftists”.

        1. People who have used this exact type of argument today: White Mike, Jeff, and Pod.

    2. F**k both the CDC and the FL law. Sail on.

      1. The CDC has any credibility left?

    3. Re-read what ENB wrote. She did not side with the CDC: “Unfortunately, both the federal government and Florida’s government are incapable of letting businesses and customers make this decision for themselves.”

      1. White Mike to the rescue

        1. While ignoring the title of the article.

    4. It is difficult to say that the cruise lines are not doing this under some kind of duress.

      The only duress here is “fear of lawsuits”.

      If the cruise line follows the CDC guidelines, and if a passenger gets sick and sues the cruise line, the company can just say “we were only following the government’s recommendations, we can’t be held responsible for their expert authority, you should be suing the government instead of us”. And that would be a strong argument in court, I would imagine.

      But if the cruise line doesn’t follow the CDC guidelines, and if a passenger gets sick and sues the cruise line, then the company would have to explain why it chose to disregard the government’s expert authority, cite its own evidence and studies, etc. That is probably going to be a much more difficult argument to win in court.

      1. There was a similar dynamic in my local city about mask mandates. Local businesses welcomed a city mandate because they could point non-cooperative customers to the order and say, “Hey, it’s not us. We have to ask you to wear a mask.”

        Not fear of lawsuits, I know. But some poor minimum wage employee, told to enforce masks by management, dealing with a rude customer could used the government mandate to third party the customer’s objections.

      2. So you are for government influence through regulations instead of laws.

        Good for you buddy.

  19. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit has thrown out a case challenging a federal ban on bump stocks.

    Thanks, Trump for violating our rights and giving more power to Biden to regulate guns by executive order.

  20. “The poll also saw 15 percent of all respondents agreeing that “because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country.” Broken down by political ideology, agreement was highest among Republicans (28 percent), followed by independents (13 percent) and Democrats (7 percent).”

    There’s this thing called, ‘The Second Amendment”. It’s right there in the Constitution. I’ve seen it myself! It says that if things get so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save the country.

    Are you against the Constitution, ENB, or are you trying to reassure us that as bad as things are, there are still people out there who are willing to stand up for their constitutional rights?

    1. ENB wrote not one word of approval or disapproval of the survey results that you quote. All she did was straight reporting of the results, and you filled in the rest.

      1. Actually he asked a question about it.

    2. Good ol’ attention whoring Matt Gaetz:

      https://www.businessinsider.com/matt-gaetz-says-american-obligation-take-up-arms-big-tech-2021-5

      “Rep. Matt Gaetz of Florida on Thursday escalated his rhetoric against Silicon Valley companies he argues are censoring conservatives, suggesting Americans have an ‘obligation to use’ their Second Amendment right to bear arms against them.”

      Lovely how he timed his statement to go along with a mass shooting in Silicon Valley. Wonderful human being.

  21. I don’t know anything about satanic pedofile but there is a easy way to find out.
    Hey spb what do you people discuss at your meetings?

    1. Republican Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert was indicted on federal charges of structuring bank withdrawals after prosecutors alleged Hastert had molested at least four boys as young as 14 and attempted to compensate his victims and subsequently conceal the transactions. Hastert eventually admitted that he sexually abused the boys whom he had coached decades earlier, and was sentenced to fifteen months in prison.

      Republican Tim Nolan, chairman of Donald Trump’s presidential campaign in Kentucky, pled guilty to child sex trafficking and on February 11, 2018 he was sentenced to serve 20 years in prison.

      Republican state Senator Ralph Shortey was indicted on four counts of human trafficking and child pornography. In November 2017, he pleaded guilty to one count of child sex trafficking in exchange for the dropping of the other charges.

      Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.

      Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison.

      Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.

      Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.

      Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.

      Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.

      Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.

      Republican Senator Strom Thurmond, a notable racist, had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.

      Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.

      Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.

      1. Strom Thurmond DEMOCRAT had sex with that 15-yr-old black girl.

        1. Clinton violated an intern with a cigar. In the Oval Office.

        2. His list only covers the last 80 years, it needed some filling out

        3. It’s a great example of how partisan people will not only ignore the bad behavior of their own team, and will blame the other team falsely.

      2. “Republican pastor Mike Hintz”

        Lol, a pastor? Somebody didn’t read his email this morning before posting it.

    2. Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos.

      Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.

      Republican activist Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child.

      Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.

      Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter. Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.

      Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped.

      Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. “Republican Marty”), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug LSD.

      Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks was charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography. Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the allegations were reported in the media.

      Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded a return to traditional values, was sentenced to jail after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him.

      Republican talk show host Jon Matthews pleaded guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11 year old girl.

      Republican anti-gay activist Earl “Butch” Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her.

      Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison.

      Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year old girl.

      Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy.

      Republican politician Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children).

      Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt was charged with sexual misconduct involving a 15-year old girl.

      Republican County Councilman Keola Childs pleaded guilty to molesting a male child.

      Republican activist John Butler was charged with criminal sexual assault on a teenage girl.

      Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters.

      Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner was convicted of molesting a 13-year old girl.

      Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact and assault on a teenage boy. Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison. Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison and fined $18,000.

      Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired after child pornography was found in his possession.

      Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet.

      1. So, only about 1 in 10 pervs is a Republican. Thanks!

      2. Gee, I’ll bet it took some D hours to put that together. Get back to us after the putz selects for Ds.

      3. I can tell that combatting the QAnon believers in this thread is very important to you. You come prepared!

        LOL

        Now maybe you should go after all the six day creationists here. After all, if it weren’t for you standing up against Trump dogma, how would they ever learn the truth?

        1. Not seeing anything bad about Republicans is important to Ken. He needs to believe that only the Democrats are uniquely evil, and the Republicans are our saviors.

          1. I thought you were against strawman arguments WK.

            1. WK has repeatedly refused to use logic. Despite being led to water over and over and over again, she refuses to drink. There’s already nothing you can do for a horse like that, but then you add not caring whether she’s wrong or right?

              Just mute at that point.

              1. LOL, JesseAz isn’t going to mute me. I’ve had him muted for a couple of weeks now, and he keeps posting replies to my comments even though I no longer see them.

                I love how you are the self-appointed logic policeman here, but you are so blind to how illogical your thinking is. Here’s a hint: When engineers use math and logic to design something, they do basic sanity checks on the results to make sure their math and logic didn’t go astray. They do testing because they know their math and logic can go wrong.

                If you are using “logic” and conclude that Democrats are much more evil than Republicans. If you use “logic” and you conclude that grifter, Donald Trump, is your libertarian hope, your “logic” has gone off the tracks.

                1. LOL, JesseAz isn’t going to mute me. I’ve had him muted for a couple of weeks now, and he keeps posting replies to my comments even though I no longer see them.

                  Yup same here. He offers nothing of value, just insults and whataboutisms, and parroting the Team Red propaganda du jour. He won’t mute me because he’s not insulting me, or you, in order to actually be mean to us or to influence our behavior. He’s doing it to virtue-signal to his other Team Red buddies that he is a part of “their tribe”. Just like if either you or I post an argument that he actually agrees with, he will never admit it publicly. He’ll either instead try to manufacture disagreement by picking at some nit, or he will engage in one of his usual whataboutisms. He isn’t here to discuss ideas. He is here because he uses Reason as an extension of his social media feed, to generate “likes” and praise from his right-wing buddies around here so as to inflate his ego. That’s it.

                  1. LOL, you replied to me just the other day liar.

                    1. I like how these fifty-centing chucklefucks think that the mute button is some sort of insult, or that anyone knows or cares that they’ve been muted by the party shillbots.

                    2. Yeah, it is amazing to watch. All it is is them admitting they don’t want to see their ineffectual arguments responded to. They prefer bubbles where their thoughts are never challenged. Because quite frankly their beliefs are infantile.

                  2. “Just like if either you or I post an argument that he actually agrees with, he will never admit it publicly.”

                    Or accuse me of lying about my own political opinions.

                    1. You’re literally posting the exact same talking points as Hillary Clinton

                    2. I quote you all the time for the world to see White Mike. There is no lying here. There is you being so exposed to how bad your arguments are and then you denying your original contention. That is what you and Jeff are great at.

                2. And Ken knows exactly what he’s doing. He is using logic and reason, but from flawed premises, hoping that no one will poke holes in the flaws.

                  1. This meeting of the Apache Party adjourned.

                    1. isn’t mike answering jeff just jeff answering mike?

                    2. Yep. And they have this exact same conversation with each other every few days. Sometimes with sarc.

                    3. It amuses me more than anything.

                      A bunch of old women proud of how ignorant they are to everything. They are essentially a dumber version of The View.

                  2. I don’t think he is. I think he really believes he is the paragon of logical thinking and astute observations. He is oblivious to the amount of garbage in-garbage out in his “logical” thinking.

                    1. Ironically you’ve never actually presented a logical argument to any of my contentions. You just scream whataboutism and such. Those aren’t logical arguments. I would love to see one time you actually presented a logical breakdown against one of my arguments against yours. Because you never do that. You just pretend you said something completely orthogonal to your initial premise. Everyone here sees it.

                3. People who brag about who they muted are my favorite idiots 🙂 They wear their ignorance as a badge of pride.

      4. Who do you think you’re debating? No one in this comment section, or among Qanon for that matter, thinks that GOP politicians are all pure and blameless. The main difference between them and Democrats is that Democrats are better at not getting caught because they don’t hold each other accountable.

        1. He’s a victim of progressive propaganda.

          This is why people defend someone shooting an unarmed protester for trespassing on public property.

          What else is he freaking out about for no good reason?

          Bush was able to get away with occupying Iraq because people were upset about anthrax–because of people who swallow media narratives, sans critical thinking, like Lord of Strazele.

        2. No one in this comment section, or among Qanon for that matter, thinks that GOP politicians are all pure and blameless.

          Oh I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Ask Jesse for example.

          Even among those around here who don’t think GOP politicians are “pure and blameless”, quite a few are nonetheless willing to go through many gyrations and contortions to excuse their behavior, starting with BUT BUT BUT THEY’RE NOT AS BAD AS DEMOCRATS.

          1. Says the guy that responds to any criticism of Democrats with criticism of Republicans.

          2. I have never said nor implied the GOP is blameless. In fact I blame the GOP a lot. Especially in regards to budgets, namely GOP congressmen.

            Why must you lie dummy?

          3. Apparently chemleft suddenly has never heard of the GOPe and Jesse’s opinion of them.

            1. He just gets mad when I correctly attribute issues to the correct branch of government.

              I don’t blame arbitrary people for actions they don’t have control over. Jeff/White Mike prefer to do that. I don’t find a benefit to it.

      5. So are you one of the 8% percent democrats or 14% independents that agree with the QAnon? Your starting to convince me maybe they are right.

        1. You only have to watch these video clips of Biden pawing little girls to realize that there might be a problem.

          I don’t need a QAnon conspiracy to tell me the man is obviously a pedophile.

          https://youtu.be/5XqF4wA-dco?t=5

  22. “Ron DeSantis said requiring any passenger vaccinations “violates the spirit” of his executive order forbidding vaccine passports and of a recently passed Florida law banning vaccine passports set to take effect July 1. Asking for passengers’ vaccine statuses could subject cruise ships to massive fines, he said.”

    Could being the operative word, you know, cause you’re free to bribe DeSantis with campaign donations to carve your company out his fascist regulations.

    1. So it is not allowing vaccine passports that is racist while forcing vaccine passports is anti fascist….

    2. “…his fascist regulations.”

      Yep, *NOT* requiring papers is “fascist” to this slimy piece of lefty shit.

    3. Ah, so we can ignore you. Got it.

    4. Now do voting ID.

    5. Oh, that’s a bunch of baloney! People who take long distance public transportation such as planes, boats, trains, buses, etc., should be required to be vaccinated against Covid-19.

      1. No. No government requirements are needed. This is about as perfect an example as any of something that the free market can handle perfectly well without any government interference.

        Transportation companies should be allowed to set their own polices and required to make their policies clear to their customers. That way customers can decide for themselves.

      2. What about people that already had it? Or are we still pretending natural immunity doesn’t exist?

  23. so is Reason going to cover the Capitol Praetorian Guard firing stun grenades and rubber bullets on peacefully protesting children or nah?

    https://amgreatness.com/2021/05/27/new-video-depicts-capitol-police-using-stun-grenades-on-crowd/

    1. I’m sure someone here can answer this:

      What was it that Reason was saying when police used tear gas on Antifa terrorists that were trying to burn down a federal courthouse with people still inside?

      1. Tear gas and rubber bullets during 2 billion worth of damage was uncalled for.

        Shooting an unarmed woman in the head for breaking a window was justified.

        1. I’m pretty sure they had a more bombastic buzzword, something to really capture the brutality of Trump’s secret police. I just can’t find the motivation to dig nine months back to find it.

    2. The slow trickle of videos that destroy that narrative is a thing to watch.

      1. I’m a bit slow with the coffee this am.

    3. Check the narrative for your answer.

    4. You may not have read about this at amgreatness.com, but there was a violent MAGA riot that day. The police were trying to stop rioters from invading the Capitol building with apparent intent to lynch Vice President Pence and several others.

      1. Lol. God damn youre an idiot. Fire extinguishers for everyone.

      2. But, that riot was made up of Real Murican Patriots, so using standard anti-riot techniques against them is bad.

        By contrast, the people participating in BLM riots are composed of Treasonous Marxist Terrorists, so using standard anti-riot techniques against them is totally justified, and in fact not nearly sufficient.

        1. It’s standard anti-riot techniques to shoot unarmed people in the face? How many rioters were shot in the face last summer?

          1. “”How many rioters were shot in the face last summer?””

            With what? I saw article with photos about someone shot in the face with something. The article was very critical of the cop who fired. It claimed the person shot was the victim of police brutality.

            Funny how the narrative changes depending on the politics of the victim. This not equality.

            1. If it’s standard, there would have been hundreds, if not thousands, of rioters shot in the face.

            2. Is this where I post the statement from Jeff claiming the cops were right to shoot her for trespassing and it was libertarian to believe all trespassers could have been shot?

              1. Fuck, I hope everything that Jeff and White Mike hope for comes true, but for them.
                Those two clowns are the kind of people who will be shaking their head and saying “If only Father Stalin knew what was happening here”, as the stand in front of the firing squad. A pair of Tom Parsons.

      3. It was mostly peaceful, totalitarian simp

  24. It’s telling that the special subcommittee on Jan 6 investigation said that in order keep anonymity all defendants would be known as k

  25. 7% of Democrats agreed with the statement that true Patriots may have to resort to violence to save the country. 55% rejected the term “patriot”, and 35% asked “what do you mean ‘may’?”

    1. 100% of democrats agree with mostly peaceful violence.

      1. 100% of Democrats also agree that anything done by a member of team D is righteous and justified.

  26. Fifteen percent of people in a new Public Religion Research Institute poll say “the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation.”

    Meh. If Trump is literally Hitler, then Biden and Soros can be kid-diddlers.

    1. As I said up thread, Biden’s been caught on camera pawing little girls many, many times.
      I don’t need a QAnon conspiracy to tell me the man is obviously a pedophile.

      https://youtu.be/5XqF4wA-dco?t=5

  27. “Senate Republicans are poised to block the creation of a special commission to study the deadly Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol,”

    It was “deadly” for one poor protester murdered by the cops.

  28. Called the Multistate Worker Tax Fairness Act, it “prohibits a state from imposing an income tax on the compensation a nonresident earns when that person is not physically in the state, and it ensures that people with out-of-state employers who telework, or whose job requires them to occasionally work in another state, do not have to pay out-of-state income taxes.”

    Behind closed doors, they call this the Fuck NY and MA Act.

    1. Um….with the current wave of work from home arising from the plague, this will impact hundreds of thousands of people and their states. NY and MA may just be the horrible places people are deserting the fastest.

  29. And the Trump inspired death cult marches on. They have protested and refused to comply with every public health measure. Never in history has such a subset of the population actively promoted the spreading of a pandemic.

    1. You know they’ve never experienced a bit of hardship in their life when wearing a mask is “oppression.”

      Talk about snowflakes.

      1. Shouldn’t you follow the “science” that says mask wearing is utter bullshit?

        Or are you now dropping the facade of giving two shits about “science”?

        1. Science says masks work. There was an article about this just a day or so ago about that here. But the debate is about mask mandates.

          1. “Science says masks work.”

            Some research suggests some masks work under some conditions.
            IOWs, you are still full of shit.

          2. “Science says masks work. ”

            No, it does not. Did not before this and does not now.

            “There was an article about this just a day or so ago about that here.”

            Also said it did not work.

            “But the debate is about mask mandates.”

            Which are fascistic policies based on nothing that you support.

          3. “Science says masks work”
            “Jesus says you’re going to hell”

            Both are equally ridiculous, faith-based statements.

            1. By now, every one of us has direct, empirical evidence that masks work to *some* degree to slow the spread of the virus, because all of us now have experience with observing the inside of masks getting gross after a while after repeated use. It is because the mask is absorbing your spittle, that contained expelled droplets of fluid that came from your body. If you had the virus, then some of those droplets carried virus particles, which otherwise would have been directly expelled into the air.

              Now there are a whole host of open questions about how well they work, and it depends on a lot of variables. But to claim that “masks work” is a faith-based statement akin to religious dogma is just insulting.

              1. I guess I don’t spittle like you because the inside of my mask looks nothing like that.

                1. Fat people produce a lot more spittle.

                2. You probably don’t have cookie crumbs, koolaid, and buttercream either.

              2. Don’t you have some Iowa farmers to whine about, fattie?

              3. “By now, every one of us has direct, empirical evidence that masks work to *some* degree to slow the spread of the virus, because all of us now have experience with observing the inside of masks getting gross after a while after repeated use.”

                Not sure medical science goes along with “Stuff making something gross proves it prevents disease”. Sounds like a laughably terrible thought process.

                “It is because the mask is absorbing your spittle, that contained expelled droplets of fluid that came from your body.”

                …and the wide open sides of the mask where everything comes out anyway? Spray does not just go straight in front of you.

                “If you had the virus, then some of those droplets carried virus particles, which otherwise would have been directly expelled into the air.”

                Feel free to provide any actual evidence, not anecdotes, to bolster this.

                “Now there are a whole host of open questions about how well they work, and it depends on a lot of variables. But to claim that “masks work” is a faith-based statement akin to religious dogma is just insulting.”

                True. Religions actually have some use.

      2. Haven’t you heard that if you really care about your fellow comrades, you should put on 3 masks and then double-bag your head with plastic wrap and duct tape?

      3. “You know they’ve never experienced a bit of hardship in their life when wearing a mask is “oppression.”…”

        We know that as a scumbag lefty, you’re willing to crawl on your knees and lick those boots.

    2. Agreed, comrade. We need the police to distribute streetcorner justice to these insurrectionists.

      1. Oops, that should be Security Guards At The Great Hall Of The People, not police. ACAB, am i rite?

    3. It’s not a very good cult if the “cult leader” can’t convince them to take the vaccine.

    4. They have protested and refused to comply with every mandated public health measure.

      They are correct, and within their rights to do so, since all of these mandates violate A1.

      Of course, for authoritarians such as yourself, this is no big deal. Just give the Gov more power. And then you bitch when that power gets used inappropriately (as it always is). You make your bed, you lie in it.

      1. They have refused to follow ALL public health measures.

        1. They have refused to submit to ALL arbitrary government mandates related to an artificially inflated pandemic, regardless of whether those mandates help combat the pandemic or not, and without an officially approved exemption for fiery but peaceful protesting

          GUILTY! EXECUTE THEM ALL IMMEDIATELY!

          1. Right. They never believed coronavirus was something to be worried about, didn’t care if they got it or if others they knew got it because it was “just a bad flu”, right? So as usual it was total self-absorption.

            1. Oh I wouldn’t say that, fatty. It’s just we don’t bend over like you and Tony for government.

              1. Not only will you not “bend over” for government, but you won’t “bend over” for anyone else who isn’t a part of your immediate circle of friends and family. That is the self-absorption part.

                If the government tomorrow were to mandate that everyone held open doors for strangers, would you stop doing so entirely? Even for people who really could use a helping hand? Because “sending a message” was more important than actually giving a fuck about other human beings?

                1. Opening doors is just like covering my mouth!

                2. Once Again… you would actually lower your risk far more by not being obese. Your own selfish choices are putting you into a higher risk category that you are demanding others alleviate.

                  1. This.
                    Obesity is a risk factor, chemleft.
                    Losing weight would help you more than any mask.

                3. If the government tomorrow were to mandate that everyone held open doors for strangers, would you stop doing so entirely?

                  What if you couldn’t open the door for others due to a bad rotator cuff, arthritis or some other altering malady? Would you be okay with people harassing you, belittling you or reporting your non-compliant behaviour to an authority? Taping you and putting you on social media? How about having to go to the government to get special dispensation that proved you couldn’t open doors for others? Having a certificate you had to present, while being ridiculed, to prove you are not able? How about wearing a distinguishing element to signal your exemption? You see where this leads?

                4. “…..was more important than actually giving a fuck about other human beings?”

                  Hey, aren’t you the guy who claims that not wearing a mask is “virtue signaling to the tribe”?

                  Ok, now re read your comment again…. Damn, dude. Haha.

            2. Isn’t it odd that the flu just disappeared last year?

        2. By the way, how’s that mask wearing working out in Japan lately?

          1. Nobody talks about Japan anymore.

          2. I think the mask wearing is still going strong.

          3. It’s still pretty mild in Japan. Which has nothing to do with masks. And I don’t think they are all that masked up compared to anyone else (unless they have started to recently).

            1. You can’t fly to Japan, and they might not have spectators at the Olympics. It’s a mess.

              1. Yeah? That’s disappointing. Japan had been being pretty sensible. I don’t see the point of restricting flights when the virus is already everywhere. It’s not like it hasn’t been spreading in Japan for well over a year. There just weren’t a lot of people getting sick.

    5. “And the Trump inspired death cult marches on…”

      The TDS-addled shits keep making lying asses of themselves.

    6. Never in history has such a subset of the population actively promoted the spreading of a pandemic.

      Absolutely true. Trump supporters weren’t alive for most of the pandemics in human history.

      1. Wait until whoever is running the MollyGodiva sock (Probably Jeff) learns about the Yamnaya, the Mongols and the Spanish conquest of the Americas.

        He’s got to be the only lefty in history who never read Jared Diamonds “Guns, Germs and Steel”.

    7. And its made no difference whatsoever to the outcomes of the disease.

      Fucking MAGAdiots – can’t even get their death cult working right.

    8. “…Never in history has such a subset of the population actively promoted the spreading of a pandemic…”

      Never before in history have so many pieces of shit lied about one man.

    9. Yeah, normally it’s everyone spreading the pandemic. Because that’s how life is. Diseases happen sometimes. Never before have we tried to shut down society to stop that inevitable process. Because it’s fucking evil and doesn’t work.

    10. And of the people I know personally, the most vehemently anti-mask people are most definitely not Trump supporters. It’s really not as much about team politics as you assholes want it to be.

  30. Support high for satanic pedophile conspiracy theory. Fifteen percent of people in a new Public Religion Research Institute poll say “the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation.”

    Because it’s literally the worst-sounding thing they can think of to express their hatred for you. But don’t take it too personally.

    1. Of which 90% are kidding the pollster, like 90% of the high school kids in AP Chemistry who claim they are getting laid.

      1. “”high school kids in AP Chemistry who claim they are getting laid.””

        After reading Ken’s comment on the sex ed class, I’d say they probably were getting laid, but with what?

  31. Nothing on a prospective DEA chief that refuses to define what an assault weapon is?

    There’s no way I can define an assault weapon in 30 seconds

    1. He kind of admits it is a completely arbitrary term when he tells the committee that Congress has to define what an assault weapon is.

  32. https://twitter.com/TrumpJew2/status/1397988929836625928?s=19

    Biden says every single hospital bed will be occupied by an Alzheimer’s patient in 15 years [video]

    1. And 10 minutes later, he probably couldn’t recall saying that.

    2. “btw, don’t forget to take the vaccine!”

    3. After AGW kills them all 12 10 yrs. from now, they’ll forget they’ve been killed, rise from their graves, and climb into hospital beds.

    4. There is a bed in the White House occupied by one.

    5. He should know.

  33. > The Celebrity Edge is supposed to be the first to voyage again with non-volunteer passengers

    So it will voyage with involuntary passengers? Isn’t that against International Maritime Law? Color me confused.

    1. Slaves!

    2. I don’t know about international law, but it’s been illegal in Great Britain and the USA since 1808.

  34. “Celebrity Cruises’ vaccine requirements violate the spirit of the Governor’s Emergency Order

    While I am sympthetic with Florida here, I don’t care if it violates the ‘spirit’ of a law. If it doesn’t violate the *law as written* – then fuck you, go back and write the law better.

    1. Although, the vaccine mandate by the CDC isn’t an actual law at all.

    2. Also, if they don’t require vaccine documentation, they fine. Just have the passengers complete a form asserting that they have been vaccination. Then file that form with the state government. No vaccine passport needed. Governor doesn’t like it, he can shred those forms.

      1. We’ll just put a bullet in your head if you step foot in Florida.
        Your life doesn’t matter.

  35. Some have been framing Florida’s stance in this battle over customer vaccination requirements as a boon for civil liberties and small government. But state government interfering in what safety rules private businesses can or can’t set for customers is just big government authoritarianism of another variety. Ideally, whether or not a company requires customers to be vaccinated would be left up to individual companies.

    Of course, things are complicated here by the CDC. The health agency says cruise ships that don’t require most passengers and staff to be vaccinated must conduct all-volunteer test cruises before accepting paying passengers and must still enforce mask rules and social distancing requirements.

    Some would frame the framing of DeSantis as the source of the problem here and the CDC as just an incidental player as dishonest and anti-libertarian. They would be right.

    As others repeatedly point out, the CDC doesn’t create law. Moreover, even if it did, it’s a Federal agency constrained by the 10A.

    Norwegian et al. can entirely resolve the issue with infectious disease waivers which, after serial norovirus outbreaks, they should’ve been doing anyway. Norwegian should’ve asked “How many divisions does the CDC command?” and called it a day.

    1. But state government interfering in what safety rules private businesses can or can’t set for customers is just big government authoritarianism of another variety.

      Well, to start with, these aren’t regulations set by the businesses, are they? They’re mandated by the federal government.

      I would think a libertarian would have picked up on that.

      This is, at best, one *lower and more local* level of government protecting people from the predations of a higher and more disconnected government.

      And, at worst, government fixing a problem caused by government.

      1. That wasn’t supposed to be a reply.

        1. Regardless, government fixing a problem caused by government and ENB primarily complaining about the people doing the fixing.

    2. The problem, from Norwegian’s perspective, is that the CDC doesn’t need to command any divisions. They just need to mark Norwegian in the black book, and then pass that book of to the rest of the administrative state, who will then process-punish Norwegian for their failure to submit to the administrative state in a timely fashion.

      1. I didn’t say I agreed with the false premise that the CDC doesn’t (effectively) pass laws, I’m just saying that even if it were explicitly the case, the 10A means Desantis could tell them to fuck off and the spirit says he should.

      2. It is in the best interest of the cruise line to have a Covid free ship. Remember what happened to the cruise ships when this got started?

        If they follow the CDC guidelines they are off the hook.

    3. Just for the record:
      The U.S. Army currently consists of 10 active divisions and one deployable division headquarters (7th Infantry Division) .

    4. > Norwegian should’ve asked “How many divisions does the CDC command?” and called it a day.

      So fascist. Mussolini would be proud of how you twisted his slogan to seem libertarian.

      1. Fuck off and die, karen

      2. How is a private corporation telling an unelected federal bureaucracy to go fuck itself in any way fascist?

        1. Because it says so in his talking-points PDF.

    5. I find it increasingly funny what gets the staff animated here. Examples:

      1. Thousands demonetized, canceled, kicked off, silenced, banned from various social media network for saying crazy pants conspiracy stuff by literally citing CDC numbers about Coronavirus deaths or proven election irregularities (which likely are fraud).

      2. A racist ideology grips the nation (and increasingly the Western World), every corporation, entertainment company and government, both federal and local accept its basic premise, even aping the language of a small number of self-described Marxist activists.

      *crickets*

      A sex worker gets demonetized.

      A red state politician tries to pass a law clipping this racist, eugenicist shit off at the knees.

      Now we’ve got a problem.

      1. Thousands demonetized, canceled, kicked off, silenced, banned from various social media network for saying crazy pants conspiracy stuff by literally citing CDC numbers about Coronavirus deaths

        Do you have an example of what you are describing here?

        1. Ok.

          Now, followup, prove to me that all 8000 of those channels made verifiably false claims, and if you can, explain to me why CNN’s channel, which has itself made verifiably false claims still is on youtube.

          1. Stop hitting him, he’s already dead!

            1. Points are being missed, and by a country mile.

              Alternate universe:

              Social media company starts up, and its policy and terms of service clearly states:

              No niggers, kikes, fags or trannies allowed on our platform

              Reason remains absolutely silent on the subject.

              A lawmaker pops up with some tepid legislation to say you can’t do that.

              ENB storms onto the scene, referring to this as a Liberal Backlash, and the the Corporation has a Gilded Right to do “whatever it wants”– without even a single tut-tut, providing no critique over the awful nature of such a platform, protected to the end of time by section 230 in its power to “moderate” however it sees fit.

              I’m having… a hard time imagining this reverse scenario ever happening.

      2. There can be no peaceful resolution with these people, as they prove every day

  36. with non-volunteer passengers

    Aren’t all passengers, by definition, there voluntarily?

  37. So an elected executive protecting constituents from an unapproved vaccine is wrong, and un-elected political operatives demanding use of experimental vaccines are right?

    Let me check – yep reason.com. Guess the libertarians sold the website.

    1. The UK imposes vaccine passports. An international shipping corporation cruise line operating out of the UK imposes them as policy across the board. Even on Americans boarding ships flagged out of the US, departing from US ports. Reason’s stance? The Colonies States should fall in line for the good of The Empire.

      Nationalist, anti-liberty bigots like Crispus Attucks would be proud!

      1. At the risk of pointing out the obvious, the MSM have made taking down Disantis a holy mission. Turns out the guy was mostly right about covid response while the blue state competition fucked it up. He’s a bona fide contender to sleepy Joe in 2024 assuming the Ds don’t engineer Joe’s timely demise in the meantime. Not that Harris has a much better shot. ENB eventually makes a libertarian argument here but the headline is a solid attempt to make the the guy kinda defending individual liberty the worse of evils. Sadly even when Reason makes a libertarian argument they’re compelled to suck DNC dick no matter what.

  38. The decision should be left to the cruise ship companies. Government shouldn’t be interfering with this.

    1. EXACTLY. Too many people are letting their CDC-hate and their DeSantis-worship get in the way of clear libertarian thinking on the matter.

      It is and should be the company’s choice to set very reasonable conditions on who they permit to board their boat.

      1. Except the CDC guidance makes it questionable this is a choice by Norwegian at all.

        1. Shush, Lying Jeffy has a narrative to push.

        2. Even without *CDC* guidance, it reveals Reason’s relatively narrow/blind vision/retardation. Especially wrt (e.g.) Jones’ Law and nationalism/globalism.

          Suppose it was the WHO or whatever Norway’s version of the CDC is (I know Norwegian Cruise Line is not, in fact, Norwegian),is it the libertarian stance that American passengers being denied access to boats flagged out of the US and sitting in American ports is copacetic?

          1. I think that is a complicated issue and depends on bilateral/multilateral treaties and obligations between the nations involved as well as the legitimacy of the request that is being made of the cruise lines by the state or by anyone else. Don’t be too reductionist on the issue.

          2. Yes. The cruise line as a private company can make any rules it wishes. That is a libertarian stance.

        3. Under ordinary circumstances, the *libertarian* solution is for the property owner to decide what to do with their property, right? We can agree on that, right?

          1. Right, the CDC shouldn’t be able to issue ‘no sail orders’ in any effective capacity, much less conditionalize their lifting.

            1. Under ordinary circumstances, I’d agree with you.

              Should there be any exceptions to this at all?

              1. Yes, but you’re a statist, not a libertarian. You want exceptions you can choose to exploit for your own sides gains while condemning the other.

            2. I mean, are you going to take the absolutist position and say that a government health agency should never ever ever have the power to impose any restrictions whatsoever on ships that come and go from the nation’s ports? If that’s the case, then welcome to anarchism I suppose.

              1. I mean, are you going to take the absolutist position and say that a government health agency should never ever ever have the power to impose any restrictions whatsoever on ships that come and go from the nation’s ports?

                So, pro-borders, anti-illegal immigration then, huh?

                I said it was true before COVID and the CDC’s performance through COVID has only reinforced the notion, “If the threat is so existential it requires expert/CDC guidance in order to survive, you’re dead already.” Your hypothetical is predicated on a falsehood and internally inconsistent. The CDC isn’t the sum total of the government and, without the CDC there’s not anarchy. The CDC isn’t going to know if one or more persons at the border is infectious quicker or more effectively/definitively than ICE/CBP. By the time the infection gets to the CDC and any information/expertise gets back to ICE/CBP they’re both/all three useless.

                1. So your position is, there is no effective role for CDC or any government health agency in order to do anything about a pandemic?

                  1. After the experience of the past year, I’m going to say “yes”. These people cannot be trusted and must be kept as far from that kind of power as possible.

                  2. CDC can give advice. An individual can weigh the estimates of the risk from that advice. That’s the libertarian perspective, which you are not one of.

                    1. It is simply fact and has been all along. The state or local governments can make laws. Not the CDC.

              2. “I mean, are you going to take the absolutist position and say that a government health agency should never ever ever have the power to impose any restrictions whatsoever on ships that come and go from the nation’s ports?”

                Yes.

                Unelected bureaucrats should not.

                We have a Congress. That would be their job to pass laws and restrictions.

          2. No my god, the libertarian side would be THE INDIVIDUAL’S LIBERTY at the cost of all else.
            When the free market calls the shots for the individual, it is fascism.
            Did you all just discover the L thing recently? You’re way off base.
            The intention of the free market is individual choice.
            When the market uses coercion for experimental medical injections.. it is fascism and the very damn definition of it.

      2. Bow down to your corporate masters and CDC overlords, fatty.

        1. You are free not to go on a cruise if you don’t want to obey their rules for their property.

          1. It’s not their rules. It’s the rules the CDC is letting them have after issuing a no sail order. Assuming the CDC doesn’t alter the deal further.

            1. Jeff will never understand that. He claims to be a libertarian but is happy as a clam using government influence and collusion with business and industry.

              1. He is literally defending fascism and calling it the “free market.” Liberty and fascism are opposing values

            2. The CDC can’t let them do anything.

              In any case they should be free to set their own rules without government interference.

          2. Except that the cruise line isn’t free to set their rules for their property when the government forces them to set rules for their property, as is the case here with the CDC imposing their arbitrary rules on cruise lines.

            But you already knew that. You’re just being a disingenuous prick to help advance the leftist cause.

            1. Thank you. They’re all leftists here

      3. Chem Jeff radical statist believes an unelected burocracy has totalitarian power to make laws

    2. If only that had been the disposition of pretty much everyone ~March of 2020.

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  41. DeSantis pen > CDC wishes

    1. Of course. CDC doesn’t make laws. That is not its function.

  42. Fifteen percent of people in a new Public Religion Research Institute poll say “the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child sex trafficking operation.”

    We’ll just not talk about Billionaires who literally lived on Pedophile Island because we’re all friends here.

    1. you’d think the *journalists* at this site would investigate something worthy of investigation …

      1. Reason is MSM, and MSM has a worse record than the qanon crazies

      2. They’re liberals who don’t like the moniker anymore. Reason is as libertarian as a prison guard

    2. About the same percent believe in Bigfoot and there is more evidence for Bigfoot, The Satan worshippers are just another in a long line of secret societies bent on controlling the world. Illuminati, free masons, new world order, Jews, lizard people, elite shadow government, Soros, stolen elections, the list goes on. Plenty of people here believe in some version of one of those or something similar.

  43. For the record, I still know very little about Q-Anon, or what it even is. What I do know is that the media is absolutely obsessed with it, by the reams of hand-wringing worry-wart articles and HBO documentaries on the subject. Bottom line, the worrying about Q-Anon seems to be more prominent that Q-Anon.

    I’m starting to see the Media’s collective Q-Anon concern as the sort of Zeitgeist equivalent of Negro Jazz Musicians smoking Marijuana Cigarettes and trying to date your daughter.

    1. Yes it is the conspiracy flavor of the month.

  44. For someone who graduated from Harvard Law School, Ron DeSantis seems to have forgotten Gibbons v. Ogden. States can’t regulate activities that the Feds regulate. Since the CDC regulates shipboard health and sanitation, the Coast Guard regulates maritime safety, and CPB insures the identity off returning passengers and what they bring into the country, Florida can’t regulate.

    Further, if a Caribbean country requires people entering the country to be vaccinated, then Florida’s law would interfere with international trade.

    1. Hardly. If a foreign country requires something, then the passenger would be barred from disembarking at that location.

    2. You’re wrong that Gibbons v Ogden has anything to do with the CDC. Gibbons v Ogden found that through Congress the feds > states, but this isn’t Congress passing anything. So a law > regulation whether that regulation comes from a federal entity or state one.

  45. “The Celebrity Edge is supposed to be the first to voyage again with non-volunteer passengers”

    do cruise lines ever have “non-volunteer” passengers?? pretty sure they not only volunteered, but paid a princely sum to be there.

  46. “…state government interfering in what safety rules private businesses can or can’t set for customers is just big government authoritarianism of another variety.”

    BINGO.

    So many on the right call for smaller gov’t (which is often appropriate)…but man oh man they want BIG/HUGE gov’t when it’s THEIR agenda they want forced on their fellow Americans.

    1. Sure they do. Desantis is a populist. He is PTO-
      Freedom. You need to look harder. Without heath freedom there IS NO freedom.

  47. Cruise ships ARE a “public accomodation” under federal law, As such they MAY NOT under existing laws FORCE anyone or appluy any coercive restrictions or conditions upon anyone using them. CDC are out ofline.

    Further, this thing they are labelling the “vaccine” is EXPERIMENTAL, and as such NO ONE may force or coerce or apply any pressure to takeor not take it. As an “eperimental” medical proceedure NO ONE can pressure me, or deny me any servoce otherwise availble to me based on my status of having taken or not taken that injection. Di Santis is correct. CDC are wrong. In fact NO ONE has the right to even query me s to whether I’ve taken or not taken that injection, or any othe r”experimental” medical procedure or product.

    I think the idea of letting the same cruise line apply varying tandards to their different vessels. Have on e mask free, distance not regulated, maybe the tnext full on lockdown,inckuding solo dining tables except for household groups. Both ends of thepanic spectrum, let those wanting to go for acruise decide what “risk” they are comfortable with. PersonallyId consider a fully masked and distanced cruise a far higher risk than the open pre-covid model. I know and spend time with hundreds of people and of all of them ONLY ONE has had a positive diagnosis (PCR test) AND signficant symptoms lasting well over two weeks. Not hospitalised but close. Guess what? At church HE was the ONLY one masked all the time, AND kssping his distance, elbow bumping instead of shaking hands or hugging, he lives in a smalll house, works from home never goes ut but calls for food to be delivered to his porch. Basicaly a veritable recluse for momths. and HE came down with the Covid? HOW COUND THAT BE?/ OH, he frequqntly washed his hands, gobbed the sanitiser all over this hands, never went outside….
    yeah, all those precautions really protected hHIM. Meanwhile most of the other hundreds carried on just asif nothing was happening, because as far as WE were conderned nothign was. Oh, one guy who worked at an “essential business in retail had to wear the sill mask at work. It always came off as he walked out through the front door on his way to the car and home. HE was exposed to a known positive test, tested positive himself, but never had any symptoms. I had spent most of a day with him and his wife/chiildren the day before he tested pos, just as normal, neither of us ever had any symptoms.

    Ya think I belive the gummit control freaks? Not so much.

  48. The mother of Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick, who died following the Jan. 6 riot at the Capitol, met with Republican senators on Thursday to urge them to support a commission to investigate the attack.
    ( https://wapexclusive.com )
    Gladys Sicknick, Sandra Garza, who was Sicknick’s longtime partner, and two police officers who faced the riot that day, traveled between Republican Senate offices to deliver their pleas ahead of a possible vote on the legislation on Thursday afternoon.

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  50. How about a 100% anti vaxxer cruise? A nice long one.

    OK that is too cynical even for me.

  51. I recall in the zombie survival handbook they advised against using a ship to escape the zombies because if even one gets on board there is nowhere to run.

  52. The real loser here is the cruise line. They could easily fill the ship with vaccinated passengers.

  53. No Reason, a private business does not have the right to refuse me service for not being vaccinated any more than it can refuse me service for being white. This is not about my going shirtless or asking for a gay wedding cake.
    Refusing to allow me to buy or sell goods unless I get experimental injections is a form of coercion. Libertarians believe in LIBERTY not the blind worship of the free market. You are all liberal progressives who have co opted my party just as the far left co opted the D party and the neocons the right. Shame on you. I had Covid! I won’t be vaccinated- I could die.
    RN who believes in health freedom not tyranny of fascism (business controlled health regulation is FASCIST)

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