Surveillance

Our Post-9/11 Response Deprived Us of Liberty and Didn't Stop Terrorism. Let's Not Venerate or Expand It.

We don’t need new tools or agencies to track alleged domestic terrorists.

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Writing at The Daily Beast, Jeff Stein asks whether America needs a new federal spy agency focused on domestic threats in the wake of the attack on the U.S. Capitol by Americans who refuse to accept that outgoing President Donald Trump lost the 2020 election.

But we already have such an organization. It's called the FBI. Stein argues that the FBI is so focused on solving and clearing crimes that it's not able to effectively engage in domestic intelligence gathering. He asks whether a new federal agency should be created for that purpose.

In reality, the FBI is set up just fine for intelligence gathering. In fact, under Trump, the FBI's authority to secretly snoop on American citizens was actually expanded. The intelligence failures that preceded the attack on the Capitol involved a lack of communication between law enforcement agencies about the intelligence that had been gathered. It's not entirely clear how yet another federal surveillance agency would fix that problem.

Stein does quote a number of experts who throw cold water on the idea of creating a new domestic surveillance agency, including former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, who says, "Whenever something goes wrong, the knee-jerk Beltway reaction is, 'Let's reorganize,' when more often than not, that's not the problem."

Clapper himself became a symbol of the capacity of the federal government to snoop on American citizens when he flat-out lied to a Senate Intelligence Committee in 2013 about whether the National Security Agency (NSA) was collecting Americans' data records. "Not wittingly," Clapper said.

But the NSA was collecting such information. In fact, it collected millions of metadata records documenting Americans' cellphone and internet activities. Edward Snowden even pointed to Clapper's lie as one of the reasons why he decided to blow the whistle on America's post-9/11 domestic surveillance regime.

Our understanding of that domestic spying regime did not start with Snowden. Thanks to an Associated Press investigation we learned in 2011 that the New York City Police Department had engaged in the mass surveillance of Muslim citizens. That police snooping uncovered zero terror plots.

The rise of the Department of Homeland Security led to the creation of a national network of "fusion centers," state-level centralized information hubs that were presented as a way of collating data about potential terrorism threats within the U.S. These centers have, in fact, become domestic surveillance tools keeping track of everything from the Occupy movement to protesters bearing "Don't Tread on Me" flags. The fusion centers have been justly criticized for being useless, expensive, and bad for civil liberties.

More recently, the Department of Homeland Security deployed drones and recorded hundreds of hours of Black Lives Matter protests in the wake of George Floyd's death.

We are absolutely awash in federal domestic surveillance.

Furthermore, these expanded federal surveillance powers have failed to prevent multiple terrorist attacks on U.S. soil in the past two decades. There was the Boston Marathon bombing, the San Bernardino shootings, and the Orlando Pulse nightclub shooting. It's hard to believe that yet another agency will be any different.

As a response to the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. embraced a host of invasive policies that didn't work, didn't make us safer, and didn't respect our civil liberties. We should not make the same mistakes in our response to the attack on the Capitol.

NEXT: Trump Promised a 'Good and Easy To Win' Trade War, Then Lost It

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  1. The MAGA riots were America’s second 9/11 and the death of that brave police officer under the boots of the MAGA thugs cannot go unanswered. Send Trump et al to Gitmo for interrogation!

    1. 9/11 was a dress rehearsal for what happened on 1/6. The real death toll may never be known.

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      2. Reason is against free speech.

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    2. The falicy you promote in this article is the use of the term ‘our’. The Patriot Act and the increased oppression that inexplicably was gifted to the citizenry was wholly THEIR RULES. I didn’t vote on a referendum or otherwise agree on buy-in, nor did anyone I’ve met. Politicians agreed among themselves that this was mandatory for a more perfect union, and to this day act oblivious to the resentment of rights that originated in the Magna Carta. SCOTUS has gone out of their way to steer clear of the obvious unconstitutional nature of legislation that is so repressive and the opposite of our Founding principles. This is a gaping hole of our checks and balances. Other than correctly identifying this as Tyranny and provoking the primary reason for the 2nd Amendment. Any other ideas are welcome. The reaction to the fallacies of the 2020 ‘free fair and transparent’ election on 1/6/2021 at the Capitol thankfully did not rise to the level of a 2nd Amendment drill. Continued treatment of almost half of the electorate as 2nd class citizens may not have such fortunate results. Unfortunately there seem to be no mandatory college courses that teach: because you do not agree with someone who is not doing anything illegal but they are provoked by antisocial and arbitrary policies, may resort to violence as a last resort. Those that provoke this repression do so at your own peril. Think of it as BLM & Antifa mostly peaceful protest, which you don’t happen to endorse. I better stop before I get upset…

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    4. Or the Democrat’s version of Reichstag Fire. Which they will use as an excuse to clamp down on civil liberties for those who dissent.

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    6. You’ve got to be a parody, because no one can be that stupid.

      Either way, it made me laugh.

  2. This is getting so retarded. The excitement at the capitol the other day was not a threat to anything any more than any other rowdy political demonstration.

    1. What were the zip cuffs and pipe bombs for, Zeb?

        1. That’s different because DOL’s a dishonest hypocrite.

        2. How is that a response? That’s the most basic and unrelated whatabout I have ever witnessed, and that is saying something.

          1. You denying youre a hypocrite isn’t whataboutism.

            1. Adding an idiotic, “Yeah, what he said!”, doesn’t change the irrelevance of the response I received.

              1. De Oppresso Liber
                January.19.2021 at 8:07 pm</b?
                R Mac, are you stupid? Or just disingenuous?
                Mother is on my do not reply list since she went full anti-Semite.

                When the hell have I ever said anything remotely antisemitic, you lying fuck.

                You disgusting dishonest little turd. How fucking dare you make that slimebag accusation.
                I want an apology and I want it fucking now. If you don’t I’m going to make your time here completely fucking miserable.

          2. It’s not really whataboutism if he’s defending the thesis that it was not unlike other “rowdy” political demonstrations.

      1. If you’re going to lie, why not make it tactical nukes and bodybags? The only people armed with anything besides MAGA hats were Antifa and BLM retards trying to stir up shit.

        1. Oh, but they had flags too. And zip ties. ZIP TIES!!!

          1. Oh man! Not zip ties! Please tell me they weren’t the white ones!

            1. Worse. The clear ones. Only attainable at professional kidnapping outlets.

          2. They had Nazi Flags. Most of the media reported on it. Special stealth Nazi Flags that don’t show up in any video or photographs.

            1. They had Nazi Flags.

              13 stripes, 50 stars…that checks out.

              /CNN

              1. I didn’t see Nazi flags, but I did see one person in “Camp Auschwitz Staff” T-shirts. Plenty of confederate and 3 percenter flags, though. They also took down the US flag, threw it to the ground (to cheers) and tried, but failed (how symbolic!) to raise a Trump flag in its place.

                https://www.timesofisrael.com/capitol-rioter-in-camp-auschwitz-sweatshirt-said-identified-as-virginia-man/

              2. Trump rioters lowering and discarding American flag and attempting to raise Trump flag in its place.

                https://twitter.com/igorbobic/status/1346908735059456005?s=20

                1. There were certainly some people there doing ugly things. But there were man people there waving US flags too and not doing the things you are talking about. It was a chaotic situation where a bunch of people without a plan showed up and made a mess. Some were awful people I’m sure.
                  I don’t think anyone here is defending the rioters.

                  1. “I don’t think anyone here is defending the rioters.”

                    Defending or minimizing the action and intent of, yes.

                    1. De Oppresso Liber
                      January.19.2021 at 8:07 pm

                      R Mac, are you stupid? Or just disingenuous? Mother is on my do not reply list since she went full anti-Semite.

                      When the hell have I ever said anything remotely antisemitic, you lying fuck.

                      You disgusting dishonest little turd. How fucking dare you make that slimebag accusation.
                      I want an apology and I want it fucking now. If you don’t I’m going to make your time here completely fucking miserable.

                    2. It’s Pedo Jeffy. We’re you really expecting honesty from him.

        2. You guys keep ignoring the pipe bombs and molotovs, for some reason. And those were not zip ties, they were zip cuffs. Very different.

          1. How many were used? Now compare to blame riots you have never denounced.

            Likewise the bimbs haven’t been linked to anyone and were found outside both the rnc and dnc, sounds more like anarchists.

            1. I have denounced the riots, repeatedly and explicitly. I went to the CHAZ/CHOP and told you all what a bunch of bums they were. I know I know, some other person defended the riots, and you are going to assert (without evidence, your favorite) that that is actually me.

              Acknowledging that riots can have a root cause that is based on actual injustice is not condoning.

              1. De Oppresso Liber
                January.19.2021 at 8:07 pm

                R Mac, are you stupid? Or just disingenuous? Mother is on my do not reply list since she went full anti-Semite.

                When the hell have I ever said anything remotely antisemitic, you lying fuck.

                You disgusting dishonest little turd. How fucking dare you make that slimebag accusation.
                I want an apology and I want it fucking now. If you don’t I’m going to make your time here completely fucking miserable.

      2. The pipe bombs I wonder about. I have no idea what to think about that. But nothing was blown up and no one was deliberately killed (by the protesters/rioters at least), so it seems extremely unlikely that there was any plan for anything that was shared by many of those present. Maybe a few people had evil intentions. Maybe it was a plant. Who knows?

        Zip ties have many uses. I don’t see a reason to assume they were to be used as cuffs.

        1. They were not zip ties, they were zip cuffs, aka flex cuffs, aka they do nothing but act as handcuffs.

          1. De Oppresso Liber
            January.19.2021 at 8:07 pm

            R Mac, are you stupid? Or just disingenuous? Mother is on my do not reply list since she went full anti-Semite.

            When the hell have I ever said anything remotely antisemitic, you lying fuck.

            You disgusting dishonest little turd. How fucking dare you make that slimebag accusation.
            I want an apology and I want it fucking now. If you don’t I’m going to make your time here completely fucking miserable.

          2. They were not zip ties, they were zip cuffs, aka flex cuffs, aka they do nothing but act as handcuffs.

            No other uses at all? Bullshit.

      3. BDSM play with AOC? I’d suck the warm horchata outta her fun bags!

        1. Your imagery is revolting. But OK.

          1. Shes gotta be in the top 5 most fuckable house members. If you haven’t tried sex with someone you hate, you should try it at least once.

            1. Ah, so you’re the stranger who seemed so angry at me the other night…

              1. Shh. You are ruining what we had. never mention again.

                1. De Oppresso Liber
                  January.19.2021 at 8:07 pm

                  R Mac, are you stupid? Or just disingenuous? Mother is on my do not reply list since she went full anti-Semite.

                  When the hell have I ever said anything remotely antisemitic, you lying fuck.

                  You disgusting dishonest little turd. How fucking dare you make that slimebag accusation.
                  I want an apology and I want it fucking now. If you don’t I’m going to make your time here completely fucking miserable.

            2. You sound lonely.

              1. And angry.

      4. Mostly peaceful protest.

        It’s amazing how much heavy lifting “mostly” can do.

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  3. Oh, if this is what “reunifying America” looks like, I prefer the divided one.

    1. At least we’ve finally returned to normalcy after 4 dark, long years of sinister evil in high places. Libertarians rejoice!

      1. We need more military in the DC streets!

  4. ‘former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, who says, “Whenever something goes wrong, the knee-jerk Beltway reaction is, ‘Let’s reorganize,’ when more often than not, that’s not the problem.”‘

    Sometimes the problem is personnel, isn’t that right, Mr. Clapper?

    1. Or the inability of those in power to tell the truth, right, Clapper?

  5. The almost desperate desire of the left to turn Jan 6 into some sort of Pearl Harbor is truly creepy. It was milquetoast compared to the nonsense that was going this summer. It was unacceptable, but hardly a watershed moment.

    That every senator, tech company, newshound or other personality was so swift to (over) react to a couple hundred people getting rowdy for 3 hours just goes to show you that they have been aching to find an excuse to do all the things they’ve wanted to do for years.

    1. Those smelly peasants almost touched them!

  6. But we already have such an organization. It’s called the FBI.

    Just one such organization isn’t enough. The threats to freedom are so great that we need our own NKVD, Stasi and Gestapo. To start with.

    1. Plus the Ministry of Love. Don’t forget them.

      1. >Ministry of Love
        State mandated girlfriends when?

        1. “…I’m sure you’d prefer Nikki, but Bertha here has seniority.”

          If you recognize that joke from the punch line, shame on you for your dirty mind.

          1. Funny how some names get such strong associations. Surely there must be some very attractive Berthas out there.

            1. And how! 6 Foot tall and takes D engines!

            2. I found a Bertha Nieves, who makes tequila, but she looks nice even without the tequila.

              https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/meet-first-lady-tequila-bertha-gonz-lez-nieves-n530296

        2. Why not? They already have personality profiles and relationship statuses of everyone in the country… why not just make a dating service and put a friendly face on the Orwellianism?

    2. SS does love him some FBI goosesteppers

  7. As long as you don’t interfere with weed or a sex worker’s human right to monetize, I’m good with whatever.

  8. It’s just an excuse, not a reaction. If the protestors hadn’t walked into the capitol building on the 6th, they’d have found another one to justify the authoritarian overreach.

    If anything we’re lucky they have given such a weak excuse, it makes it incredibly transparent that this is about crushing an ideological opponent not make anyone safer.

    1. ^This Exactly!

  9. You assbiscuit editors and writers decided to vote and support Democrats. Now you get to sleep in the bed you made. Expect the surveillance state to be expanded, using the capital protest as justification. Expect the continued erosion of our rights.

    This is what you fuckwads voted for and supported. Don’t fucking complain about it now.

  10. It would probably help if your collegues would stop trying to paint the 6th as an insurrectionist coup attempt.

    Then again, I shouldn’t expect much out of the people that wanted Joe “I wrote the Patriot Act in the 90’s” Biden to win.

  11. For all Trump’s foibles, Biden will be far worse. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way.

    The solution however is simple. We’re all grown up now and can take care of ourselves. We’re libertarians after all – we don’t need big government. We need only abolish social security and medicare and we’ll be free. Yes of course some old people will be left starving alone in the street. The alternative is that millions of healthy young people will be sent to the gulag.

    Thus the enemy isn’t dems or RINOs but your own grandparents. Beg them to release us from their death grip. We just sacrificed a year of life for their sake. Ending these disastrous programs is the least they can do. Then we’ll be free and big government will no longer be able to tyrannize us.

  12. You assholes have been agitating for an actual authoritarian state for over 4 years. Now you’ve got it. I hope Team Totalitarian puts you motherfuckers up against the wall first. Pull that mask up over your eyes and enjoy your last nicotine-free vape.

    1. While I think that’s a bit harsh, it does annoy me when they argue for bail reform. Obviously the powers that be will declare ‘free speech’ an ‘imminent threat to public health’ and automatically deny bail to libertarians regardless of the alleged crime. It’s suicidal.

  13. It’s painful when unintended consequences bite you in the ass, isn’t it? But they told you what they had in mind, didn’t they? At this point, “I didn’t know” provokes a laugh rather than sympathy.

  14. Stein argues that the FBI is so focused on solving and clearing crimes…

    BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!1!!!!1111!!!!!!1!!!!

  15. And let’s stop acting like this was anything in any way remotely comparable to 911. It’s laughable even to think of the comparison.
    You shouldn’t be giving any credence to the people trying to spin this as some kind of terrorism or insurrection. It’s just fucking bullshit. Reason used to be good at cutting the bullshit.
    For years people have been trying to create a far-right boogey man. But the far right just won’t cooperate and be violent enough to get people worked up. They have now found the right combo of hate for Trump and fears about the nasty right-wingers, I guess. And that is really disturbing.

    1. It’s quite offensive, actually. We know that if the parties were reversed, the Dem media would have brushed it off, or even supported it as the “voice of the unheard”. You know, like they always do when their side does evil.

    2. True. HyR articles used to be all about how the danger of XYZ has been highly exaggerated, even if its being real wouldn’t justify authoritarian preventive measures anyway. Even where Bailey had written about climate change as real, he was all about not exaggerating its severity or undesirability.

  16. domestic intelligence gathering

    You casually throw this phrase out there, Shackford, without noting that the Constitution specifically denies the federal government this power in regard to its own citizens and denies the power to the states by incorporation. No administrative rule, executive order or law passed by any legislature makes it a legitimate practice.

    1. Yes. Have people forgotten that “intelligence gathering” is euphemism for spying?
      The FBI should be focused on solving crimes because that is the proper role of law enforcement in a free society. Not to keep tabs on everyone in case they become dangerous.
      If they get specific information on a conspiracy or something, that’s one thing. But “intelligence gathering” implies suspicionless spying and all kinds of illegal skullduggery.

      1. To be secure in their persons without warrant.

    2. Domestic intelligence gathering is FORBIDDEN, says Der ChuckenFuhrer, EVEN yea verily in the face of domestic terrorists planning THE DETONATION OF A DOMESTIC TERRORIST NUCLEAR WEAPON, to “make a pro-Trump statement”, if they so chose! ‘Cause “muh privacy”! ‘Cause democracy = suicide pact!

      Take a HIKE, Chuckles the trumpanzee-gone-apeshit, and No-Perspective-I-Alone-Am-Righteous-Power-Pig!!!

      1. Flag, refresh

        1. Sevo making a pro-Trump statement! Next on the hit parade: Sevo conspires for THE DETONATION OF A DOMESTIC TERRORIST NUCLEAR WEAPON, to “make ANOTHER pro-Trump statement”! And Sevo will… Yes, you guessed it! Demand “muh privacy”!

          1. Flag, refresh

            1. “The people voted a narcissist and compulsive liar in as POTUS. ”

              And now Der ChuckenFuhrer wants to defend a narcissist and compulsive liar of a POTUS, AND the trumpanzees gone apeshit, in His Support, even IF they are to use horrible violence! “Muh privacy” indeed! I signed up to back off on dumping on Der ChuckenFuhrer… GIVEN that Der ChuckenFuhrer backs OFF on HIS support-the-narcissist-and-compulsive-liar ways! I call breech of contract!

              1. Flag, refresh

                1. I’m doing the same thing. Tired of his shitposting (pun intended).

      2. Between you and DOL, shrike has some stiff competition in the stupidest poster contest.

        1. So you would rather be nuked by a domestic-terrorist NUKE, than have your “muh privacy” invaded? Good to know! Idiot opinion duly noted!

          1. Flag, refresh

        2. I know, I know, my use of factual arguments with sources really makes you guys mad. I should assert things with no basis in reality but conform much better to our shared worldview, right, fellow traveler?

          1. The source document for the first post in this particular thread was the Constitution, but don’t let that stop you from linking to Vox or HuffPo to support a link between Jan 6 and domestic terrorism, you disingenuous shitstain.

          2. “…my use of factual arguments…”

            You’ve probably done that once or twice in between shoveling piles of un-supported lefty shit.

          3. De Oppresso Liber
            January.19.2021 at 8:07 pm

            R Mac, are you stupid? Or just disingenuous? Mother is on my do not reply list since she went full anti-Semite.

            When the hell have I ever said anything remotely antisemitic, you lying fuck.

            You disgusting dishonest little turd. How fucking dare you make that slimebag accusation.
            I want an apology and I want it fucking now. If you don’t I’m going to make your time here completely fucking miserable.

      3. Sqursly, we always knew you were big into domestic spying and party-loyalty oaths. You can shut the fuck up now.

        1. Don’t come bitching’ to me after the domestic terrorists NUKE yer ass! Trumpanzees gone apeshit have given us a warning, fair and square! What more do YOU need?

          1. It’s true, and I command them. I have directed them to deliver a radioactive dirty bomb to your home.

            Beware!

  17. No matter how many surveillance cameras they focus on citizens they would’ve / will miss this domestic terrorism, because this domestic terrorism is state terrorism. It was / is led by an incumbent president, advocated and aided by incumbent legislators, and carried out by many in or connected to state security elements. The terrorists are in the government office just down the hall or just down the street not in the private offices or homes all across the nation.

    The state doesn’t need to watch us. We need to watch the state.

  18. You really don’t have a clue, do you?

  19. https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1351409096847740929?s=19

    This is so dangerous it’s hard to sum up in a tweet. It puts a target on the head of every conservative, calls for war and propagandizes to form a vigilante group that would narc on neighbors. If Hitler or Stalin we’re alive today, they’d proudly use this video. Sick and evil.

    Meanwhile Twitter is banning people and suspending people for creating a “risk of violence” by questioning anything from the election but a guy who makes a video like this is left alone despite the fact it explicitly creates a risk of violence and seems to hope for it.

    Just look at some of these replies to his video asking them to join an “army” to out, punish and treat conservatives like terrorists for holding different views. These people have lost their minds. This is what genocidal regimes historically push at the start with propaganda.

    I won’t pretend to know what the whole path to national unity looks like but I do know that it starts with seeing the majority of Democrats denouncing extreme stuff like this. Instead they’ve been silent when their side does this stuff which leads us to believe they agree.

    1. Nonono. Trump said he wasn’t going to the inauguration, and that’s clearly incitement. This moron is making up BS about how Trump is gonna start a revolution of terrorists (and presumably you’d better do something about it) and that’s fine. See how that works?

  20. Long term “American Civics Education” could help reduce violence, by educating kids, adults, police and national security officials on how the “constitutional rule of law” was designed to work. They need to take back the country, they need to participate in the constitutional process.

    1. ^Perfect.

  21. “More recently, the Department of Homeland Security deployed drones and recorded hundreds of hours of Black Lives Matter protests in the wake of George Floyd’s death.”

    To paraphrase some left-wing asshole at Clinton’s inauguration: “Those are our drones now!”

    Why would you want to tie the hands of our brave men and women in law enforcement as they confront the scourge of right-wing extremist white supremacist domestic terrorism? Do you think endorsing Biden will be enough to keep you out of trouble, comrades?

  22. Clapper chips! No, clipper chips is what we need!

    Because we haven’t beaten that poor dead horse quite long enough.

  23. Excuse me, but could any sane person not realize that flooding EVERY & ONLY White countries with MILLIONS of non-Whites and telling everyone to “assimilate” to create a blended humanity is White GENOCIDE?

    Africa will still be full of Africans.

    Asia will still be full of Asians.

    Only White people are suffering from this insanity.

    That’s White Genocide.

    Except they don’t call it GENOCIDE when it’s done to White people.

    They call it “diversity”.

    Diversity means chasing down the last White person.

    1. Fuck off.

  24. Who is this “Our” that Scott speaks of?

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  28. The approach by the politicians to intelligence gathering since 911 saw the attack with air liners full of people, was a tyranny of civil rights violations by fools. They may have tried to to do a pseudo scientific search of everything they got and likely did so. But statistics and probability indicates finding those indoctrinated to kill others or so mentally disturbed they would kill total strangers says chances are so small it’s not going to happen. So far, the math is holding true. But since we are by and large ruled by tyrants somewhat held in check by the electorate, but not well enough, we get the incredible waste of our national resources by these tyrants appointed to positions in high office.

    The data collected is only useful after the attack to find the perpetrators. Or as proven in the aftermath of the Obama Regime, useful for purposes of spying on the political opposition.

    The method most effective is blocking those who profile as threats from coming into this country. Those already here as citizens or legal immigrants, could be investigated if they profile as potential threats but that would be an improbable approach for legal concerns. The last catagory is those who illegally enter this country from places where radical violent conduct would be expected.

    The best source of information would be acquaintances or neighbors or coworkers of people who act suspiciously or intimidatingly toward others.

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