Libertarianism

Libertarians Have No Home in Either Dominant Political Party

Which leaves the U.S. without a major party even slightly inclined to leave people alone to manage their own affairs.

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To go by the post-election commentary, we libertarians are a powerful group holding sway over American politics and policy. Yet Team Blue and Team Red still enthusiastically embrace authoritarianism and scorn our insistence on letting people run their own lives.

Despite growing recognition that libertarians matter, Democrats and Republicans show little sign of extending an olive branch to people who oppose efforts to make government more abusive and intrusive. They know we exist, but they keep us in opposition.

How long a shadow do we throw over American politics?

"According to the latest figures, the Libertarian candidate for president, Jo Jorgensen (pronounced Yo Your-gun-sin), has spoiled the election," huffed conservative writer Michael Warren Davis on his way to working himself into a frenzy in The Spectator. "The number of votes Yo-Yo received in Arizona, Georgia, Nevada and Pennsylvania exceeds Joe Biden's margin over Donald Trump in all those states. In other words, had the libertarians in each of those states voted for Mr Trump, he would have been reelected handily."

It wasn't just the presidential race, either.

"Hide the kids and liquor. Libertarians have been heard from again," the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette editorialized about Libertarian Ricky Dale Harrington's 33.5 percent showing against Senator Tom Cotton (R-AR). The piece acknowledged, with regret, that libertarian views on drugs and foreign policy have moved into the mainstream. "If the Libertarian stirred such a response with chewing gum and duct tape, it'd be fascinating to watch what he could do with some serious resources," the paper added.

A similar Indianapolis Star piece about Libertarian Donald Rainwater's 11.5 percent showing in the three-way Indiana governor's race described his party as "ascendant." It added, "to pass up Democrats in the next turn, Libertarians don't have to worry much about soul searching yet, they just need to figure out what they are building toward."

What they're building toward might be policy victories of the sort that troubled the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette's editorial board.

Voters, "perhaps those with a libertarian streak, in red and purple states such as Arizona, South Dakota, Mississippi and Montana voted to relax their drug laws and reject the status quo," Zachary Siegel noted for NBC News.

Libertarians "got almost everything they wanted," Liz Mair wrote in The New York Times in a piece that anticipates Republicans holding the Senate. "On the one hand, Joe Biden has a friendlier record on trade and immigration, and on the other, they avoided the burst of spending that inevitably comes with unified control of the federal government."

Libertarians are apparently winning bigly, as certain political types might say. So why are we still treated as untouchable by both of the major political parties? The answer lies, almost certainly, in the two parties' disinterest in courting those who want to live and let live for fear they'll alienate other constituents.

President-Elect Joe Biden's Democrats, for their part, are divided between pseudo-technocrats who want to "follow the science"so long as the science says that government officials should be in charge of everything—and the party's more left-leaning wings. 

"We can no longer leave this to the private sector," insists Biden's website in a section about pandemic response. "The Supply Commander should work with every governor to determine their needs, and then coordinate production and delivery of those needs in a timely and efficient manner."

Meanwhile, the party's progressivesincreasingly open about their socialismfeud with the "centrists" about just how much bigger, more intrusive, and generous with other people's money government should get under their control.

It's difficult to reconcile a Democratic Party torn between two brands of control freakery with any effort to reach out to libertariansand woe betide anybody who tries.

"It was the libertarians that she most inspired during her presidential campaign," The Washington Times observes of exiting Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-HI), who unsuccessfully vied for the Democratic presidential nomination. "Breaking from her party endeared Ms. Gabbard with a new sect of the electorate, but it hurt her prospects with her party and her constituents back home."

The same could be said of the Trump-era Republican Party, which drove also exiting Rep. Justin Amash (L-MI) to flee the GOP for the Libertarian Party. Rep. Thomas Massie, Amash's ideological ally, has weathered the stormbut not because the party leadership made him welcome.

"Massie, a libertarian-leaning conservative who has often clashed with his party's leadership, said he has no plans to leave the Republican Party, despite Trump calling for him to be thrown out of the GOP," Politico reported in March.

The populist-nationalist GOP of recent years has little room in it for advocates of personal freedom and small government.

"Today, many leaders of the Republican Party have coalesced around a desire to purge libertarians, with our pesky commitments to economic liberty and international trade, from their midst," Reason's Stephanie Slade pointed out in an August The New York Times column. She cited party figures rejecting not just figures like Amash and Massie, but libertarian ideas about free markets and limited government.

With the Democrats victorious in the presidential contest, while Republicans (probably) retain the Senate, gain seats in the House, and thrive at the state level, there's little sign that the big political parties will feel a need to appeal to a libertarian faction that drives them to distraction but is entirely incompatible with their competing brands of authoritarianism.

More than ever, that leaves libertarians without a home in either of the major political parties. It also, incidentally, leaves the United States without a major political party even slightly inclined to leave people alone to manage their own affairs. Those of us who value liberty, then, are left in permanent opposition to the meddlesome major political parties, and to the government they dominate.

NEXT: This Woman Permanently Lost Her Second Amendment Rights Because She Lied on Her Taxes

Libertarianism Election 2020 Politics Republican Party Democratic Party Libertarian History/Philosophy Libertarian Party Third Parties Authoritarianism

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416 responses to “Libertarians Have No Home in Either Dominant Political Party

  1. Wouldn’t really classify the LP as a ‘dominant political party’ but ok.

    1. Neither did JD.

      1. Was joking, libertarians don’t have a home within the LP either.

        1. It’s funny ‘cause it’s true

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          2. ITT, sarcasmic, who’s main shtick these days, is Orange Man Bad, admits that he voted for the great libertarian war monger John McCain!

            He also forgot to switch to his sock before talking to himself:

            https://reason.com/2020/11/30/libertarians-have-no-home-in-either-dominant-political-party/#comment-8611526

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          3. This article is hilarious crap.

            First, the fake leftist libertarians here who openly admitted they were going to vote for Biden think that they are a "major" party. ????????????????. Second, they think they actually are important and accomplished something with their 1% Jo vote, and that an actual real major party is going to cater to them for that 1% - ????????????????. In reality, they cut their nose off to spite their face. Instead of having an imperfect pseudo-libertarian candidate in Donald Trump, they now get to usher in totalitarian marxism with senile socialist Biden, who has literally spent the last 50 years in office. He wouldn't know how to perform a private industry job if someone handed it to him, much less pass legislation that would leave business alone. And if he croaks, which he could croak at any time, we get to usher in equality/equity extremist "literal communist" Harris, who is ready to "share the wealth" but not the labor. All of you here are dumbfuck retards that can fry in your own idiocy and narcissistic posturing.

            1. So troubling to see so many in America throwing around the phrase Marxism and Socialism without a true understanding of what they mean. Socialism meaning, well ok, that has morphed into something completely different than Marx envisioned but Marxism has the historical figures name in it. Please let’s exercise our diligence and intellect enough to honestly portray Marxist concepts for what they truly are. In today’s age it is so easy to research what Marxism is and is not and how that compares to even the Nation States identified as Communist. Marxism suggests the overthrow of Proletariat Governments where the State takes control of all means of production, original Socialism, and eventually reaches National Nirvana where everyone in society gets what they need and works at what they want to or do best, actual Communism never realized in Marx’s true vision. Obviously a flawed concept but in Marx’s time where the Ruling Class believed they were anointed by God to distribute and Tax wealth, somewhat understandable if you were a serf. I left out the banning of Religion, another non starter. I left out Marx believed strongly in the complete Freedom of the Press. I am not leaving out that there are some odd 400 Chinese nationals who are billionaires in 2020! An absolutely incongruous reality with the original concept of Socialism, Communism or the general bundling term Marxism. Therefore, yes, I am sure there are some Marxists out there on the face of the earth but they do not garner even the support that Jo Jorgensen received in the 2020 election. Democrats are not Marxists but can be authoritarians just like Republicans. The generalities of the article are correct Libertarians have to pick their poison between Red and Blue just like all other political groups in America

              1. Cool story. Now do Fascism and Nationalism.

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              2. Simplistic, pedantic and misses the point. Rewrite for full credit

            2. Amen, brother! Well spoken/ranted.
              The pox-on-both-houses attitude sported by Reason this past election cycle sailed right on past “marginal” to “colossal” on the retardation spectrum.
              It’s downright fucking cretinous to proclaim the two major parties a virtual wash in this historical moment–wherein the Democrat party’s energy lies squarely in the quasi-socialist, freedom-of-speech loathing, identity-obsessed New Left…to which, by the way, its nominee has openly proclaimed fealty.
              I suspect that Reason Magazine has experienced in its ranks the arrival of a new idiot generation–akin to that experienced by the NY Times. Grotesque.

              1. Note to foreign readers: The sockpuppet is reciting one of Goering’s speeches from the Nuremberg war crimes trial. Goering took cyanide once it became clear he would hang despite his desperate crush on the Baby Jesus. Sad.

        2. I just gave up on the article, much like I did the LP, the Lonely Party.

      2. Wwhoooosh

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    2. Tuccille classifies himself as a Libertarian, which he’s not – based on the articles he posts.

      These unreason writers are laughable.

      1. I’m a Libertarian and fit right in with Republicans except on some issues.

        I voted for Trump because he was the most Libertarian-ish president in over 100 years and got a bunch accomplished.

        unreason staffers are just liars who dont fit into the Democrat Party because they havent admitted they are Commies too.

        1. You’re nothing but a cultist. You can stop lying. Again- have you even read the constitution dingus?

          1. What a ridiculous comment. What part is inaccurate or unreasonable? Project much?

          2. Amen, Chemjeff sempai.
            Just for future reference, when are we getting back to calling the constitution a living document and ignoring it again?

          3. Can you be specific? Trump did a fairly good job of leaving people alone, and he at least dialed back foreign intervention. Even while the deep staters we’re doing things like lying about reports to keep troops in Syria.

            1. Anyone who opposes heroin, sex with six year olds, and the government paying for sex change operations, can not be Libertarian. It is known.

          4. loveconstitution1789 is not a cultist, he (or she) is a Reason intern who’s duties include writing inflammatory comments.

        2. What an idiot. See the Ladies Home Journal October 1933 article on Homemaking Under Hitler. Identically moronic arguments helped elect nazis to murder millions of people. Be proud. Admit you helped the Army of God defeat Boss Trump by countenancing their nazi platform. The Dems copied LP planks and got that hand in the till and snout in the trough. Isn’t that what matters?

        3. “I voted for Trump because he was the most Libertarian-ish president in over 100 years and got a bunch accomplished.”

          If Trump is libertarian-ish, then I don’t know what the hell I am anymore.

      2. Tucille is the most consistently libertarian writer on Reason’s staff, followed by ENB and Sullum. You crybaby Trumpissers could go sulk over at the John Birch Society or Prohibition Party site and not be missed for one second.

        1. From Wikipedia: “The John Birch Society is an advocacy group supporting anti-communism and limited government.” Oh, the horror!

          1. “The Libertarian Party supports limited government, anti-racism and is communist-neutral”.

            1. Being communist neutral is a bad idea. Look where it’s gotten us.

        2. Tucille is the most consistently libertarian writer on Reason’s staff, followed by ENB and Sullum.

          Cripes, and I thought I was the only White Knight parody working the thread.
          Kudos, that was amazing.

        3. One could only wish that the Trump-humpers were nutso in a JBS way.

      3. HasSexWithConstitution1789 is the only libertarian on earth by his criteria. I’d say he’s a libertarian with a fascist streak.

        Do you still want Trump to round up unfriendly journalists if he gets a second term?(I know that’s not happening but you still think Trump will serve a second term)

        I’d never refer to myself as a libertarian. However I believe civil liberties are extremely important. It seems more politicians (especially GOP) are taking civil liberties seriously the past few years. It used to be I’d see all these politicians labeled “Republican with a libertarian streak.” Most the time the “libertarian streak” was them not wanting to pay taxes. I’d never see or hear anything about ending the war on drugs, criminal justice reform, marriage equality(prior to obergefell v Hodges), promoting secular government, or deregulation of alcohol and tobacco. I’d hear “religious freedom” all the time, but that was mostly about the freedom for christians to discrimate against non Christians. They should be allowed to, but fuck em.

        1. Poor unreason bots. They so mad.

          1. Poor HasSexWithConstitution1789… so inbred, backwards, and hookworm infested he can’t help but believe all of Trump’s lies. When Biden is sworn in will you admit you were wrong?

            1. When Biden finally forgets who and where he is, and gets replaced by a no-kidding authoritarian Harris, will YOU admit YOU were wrong?

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  2. We have a strict “Two Asshole” system: you can’t get anywhere in politics without being an asshole.

    1. The “two Assholes”, D & R, are the parties of Evil and Stupid. Per past discussions on this board, way back when we were still riding dinosaurs I think it was, consensus leaned towards “R” is the Party of Stupid, and “D” is the Party of Evil!

      Us poor slob “L” types are neither stupid nor evil, so we have NO home at ALL!!!!

      1. back when we were still riding dinosaurs
        Hahahahhaa…
        You’re such a rhetorical genius Mr. One and totally not insane sounding. What sort of pharmaceuticals should I take to sound as clever as you?

        1. Wow, what clever wit! Did your mommy help you write that?

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  3. Libertarians only matter when they don’t.

    1. Where do I sign up?

  4. One party has a president that’s promising to reorganize the economy around the principles of “climate justice”. One party has a president that is promising to launch a war on guns like we’ve never seen before–including a national gun confiscation plan. One party has a president who is promising to launch Medicare for All under the guise of a “public option”.

    The other party opposes all of that.

    Are we supposed to pretend that one party isn’t better than the other because neither of them are perfect?

    The Perfect Solution Fallacy . . . is a false dichotomy that occurs when an argument assumes that a perfect solution to a problem exists; and that a proposed solution should be rejected because some part of the problem would still exist after it were implemented. In other words, that a course of action should be rejected because it is not perfect, even though it is the best option available.

    —-Perfect Solution Fallacy

    https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/perfect-solution-fallacy/

    The Perfect Solution Fallacy is a fallacy because it’s wrong.

    As the Democratic party becomes increasingly authoritarian and socialist, it is only reasonable for libertarian capitalists to become increasingly Republican. That is because we have single member districts, so our elections allow only two mutually exclusive outcomes over time–Republican or Democrat. To believe otherwise is to be wrong. Taking the road to Libertopia means infiltrating one of the two major parties, and the one that isn’t becoming more authoritarian and more socialist by the election cycle is the obvious choice. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for libertarians to stand by and do nothing.

    1. So, Ken, we should sell out our principles and vote for the “lesser authoritarian”. Is that what you’re saying Ken? Because that seems like what you’re saying. Guess what, voting for an authoritarian gets you more authoritarianism, whether it comes from Team Blue or Team Red. And a lot of us here are just tired of the bullshit. The “lesser of two evils” is still evil and is not worthy of my support. It is not about supporting some utopian fantasy, it is about which candidate meets my minimum standard for support. Neither Team Red nor Team Blue meets this standard for not just me but a lot of other libertarian people. Keep imploring us to sell out our principles and see how far that gets you. A lot of us are here because we are disgusted at how far both teams are willing to go to sell out principles in the lust for power. And now we see, with the past two election cycles, that both teams are really just collections of crybabies who invent wild conspiracy theories when they lose. Why should any competent adult, let alone libertarian, support that type of childish nonsense? Maybe the adults should be in charge for a change. That means not voting for either Team Red or Team Blue.

      1. And a lot of us here are just tired of the bullshit. The “lesser of two evils” is still evil and is not worthy of my support.

        Your support? Are you claiming to speak for libertarians now?

        Are you claiming to be a libertarian?!

        1. Certainly more so than you. You’re just an embarrassed Republican, like most “libertarians” on here.

          1. You’re an obvious troll.

            1. Maybe. He’s still correct.

            2. I’ll have you know that raspberrydinners and M. Stack Overflow are not trolls but simply sockpu alternative avatars of the esteemed Mr. Chemjeff to help him further elucidate his points.

              1. Nice.

              2. Now do me next.

      2. Yes, that is why you seem to always support the most authoritarian option available when making an argument. Fuck off you lying leftist.

      3. And exactly how is the current manifestation of Team Red, especially the Trump version, authoritarian? And telling you that you can’t increase rules for other people is not authoritarian.

      4. You are kidnapped and strapped to a table with two insane surgeons each offering you a choice. Surgeon A will cut off both of your legs above the knee while surgeon B will cut off only one leg below the knee. By choosing B are you selling out the principle of that no one should cut off your legs? Yes, but in one case you get to keep a leg.

        Liberty is at its lowest ebb since the 1960’s when I was in college. Intellectually, the country is doomed with legacy media, social media, higher education and Hollywood all safely in the hands of hard core collectivists.

        1. Thank Nixon’s Moral Majority for that!

          1. Looks like the Libertarian Party has accomplished so much in its 50 years.
            Great job, hank

        2. “Liberty is at its lowest ebb since the 1960’s when I was in college.”

          This is not true in all sorts of ways.

          When did the draft for the Vietnam War end, 1973?

          When was marijuana legal in half the country?

          We haven’t even started talking about the liberating aspects of technology.

          Things are worse in some ways. Things are much better in others.

          1. A lot worse. We now have over a dozen governors that are freely shutting down large parts of their economy based on unilateral decree.

        3. If liberty is at its lowest ebb since the 1960s, then:

          • Why is there no Iron Curtain?
          • Why are tariffs and trade barriers at about the lowest they’ve between nearly any pair of countries you pick?
          • Why are gun laws in the USA about the most permissive they’ve been in that time?
          • Why have dollar prices been so stable for so long, after decades of inflation?
          • Why are marijuana laws, and not only in the USA, the most permissive they’ve been since before that time?
          • Why is there no more fag bashing in the USA?
          • Why is almost all pornography allowed all over the USA?
          • Why is ballot access for political candidates the easiest it’s been in the USA?
          • Why are monopolies over electricity production, telecom, taxis, and airlines gone?
          • Why is there no draft in the USA?
          • Why do so few people in the USA owe income tax?

          I was born in New York City in 1954, and I’m incomparably freer in this and many other ways now than I was then and most of the time in between. The same would’ve been true in a great many other countries too. Liberty is not at a low ebb.

      5. Electoral progression under ‘lesser evil’

        Election 1 – A 49% pol v a 51% pol

        Election 2 – Giant Douche v Turd Sandwich

        Election 3 – Genghis Khan v You Know Who

        And by the end – those lesser evil voters are always the most rabid die-hard supporters of one of those evils. Because they are the ones who have most bought into the demonization and polarization of mass ad/PR campaigns.

        Elections are no longer about one flawed person v another flawed person. They are about got to vote this way or last election EVER.

        1. “Opposing the Green New Deal, opposing Medicare for All, negotiating and signing a full withdrawal deal with the Taliban to get us out of Afghanistan, slashing the corporate tax rate, avoiding a war in Syria over the objections of nearly everyone, respecting marijuana laws in the state, fighting to cut $772 billion from Medicaid, killing a $3.5 trillion spending bill . . . etc., etc.”

          —-Ken Shultz

          Which one of those is a lesser evil?

          Trump wasn’t only less evil than Biden and the Democrats. He was much better than them, too.

          1. You didn’t address a single word he said. In typical Ken fashion, talking to himself and ignoring what anyone else says.

            1. Yes he totally did.
              J(ew)Free bitched that Trump was not actually a “lesser” evil and Ken showed him multiple examples of Trump doing very libertarian things.

              Just what the fuck are you trying to pull, Jeff?
              We can all read you know.

              1. Shreek?

      6. Socialists spent the last 50 years slowly infiltrating the democratic party. They didn’t stay in their own minor party and say “a pox on both your houses.” Maybe the libertarian should’ve taken a lesson from that long before now.

    2. you can only push the “perfect solution” argument so far….. there is a difference between “not quite perfect” and “slightly less terrible.”

      1. See my link below for a list of libertarian olive branches.

        Opposing the Green New Deal, opposing Medicare for All, negotiating and signing a full withdrawal deal with the Taliban to get us out of Afghanistan, slashing the corporate tax rate, avoiding a war in Syria over the objections of nearly everyone, respecting marijuana laws in the state, fighting to cut $772 billion from Medicaid, killing a $3.5 trillion spending bill . . . etc., etc.

        We’re not talking about empty gestures here. These are solid libertarian policies, the most solidly libertarian president we’ve had since before World War II by far. We may never see such a libertarian president again. And if we’re not willing to reward those policies with our support, then why should anyone bother trying to win our support? If we can only win by infiltrating one of the two major parties, then how much more can you reasonably expect one of the two major parties to do?

        No doubt, Trump had downsides–especially in regards to trade and immigration. Unfortunately, the Democrats aren’t about to differentiate themselves from Trump in regards to trade–because they’re fundamentally hostile to trade for the same reasons they’re fundamentally hostile to capitalism. I’d even say Biden’s approach to immigration is particularly anti-libertarian since a lot of it is about executive orders like DACA, which clearly violate the separation of powers.

        There’s no contest between the Democrats and the Republicans on the issues. Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump were both the same in that they were less than libertarian, too, but if you don’t see that the differences between them make one of them more libertarian and capitalist than the other, again, it’s because you’re being willfully blind. Biden isn’t as bad as Sanders–but he’s nowhere near as good as Trump has been either.

        1. I agree with you on most of this, but I blame Trump. He didn’t do a good job of selling himself to libertarians. Trump mercilessly attacked anyone who disagreed with him on any single issue. That type of tactic doesn’t build coalitions and turns off people. And in a close election, you need every vote. You want to talk about The Perfect Solution Fallacy, then first apply that to Trump. He attacked anyone who wasn’t perfectly MAGA enough for him, whether or not they supported 90% of his agenda. Trump didn’t get the deal done and that is on him.

          1. “He didn’t do a good job of selling himself to libertarians.”

            I agree with that.

          2. Is libertarianism about being courted like a debutant?

            1. Pretty much the exact opposite in my experience

              1. No, libertarianism seems to be about spitting in the face of whomever gives them most of what they claim to want

                1. Yep. Or, in the case of Fat Jeffy, Sarc, etc., pretending to e a libertarian as opposed t the progressive they really are.

                  1. Chemjeff is very much a progressive.
                    Sarc isn’t, he just resents and hates the some of the same people they do, and is rather dogmatic and emotional in his thinking. His behavior here is progressive, though his opinions are otherwise doctrinaire.

                    1. He’s like a spoiled teenage girl nursing a persecution complex.

                2. Oh man you nailed it! The Libertarian party does not want to be elected. They want to be denied every time so they can have something to bitch about. And they always want the biggest douchebag in the room to win so they can “super” have something to bitch about (i.e. Democrat every election, in perpetuity).

            2. More like how a serial killer courts a hooker.


          3. Trump mercilessly attacked anyone who disagreed with him on any single issue.

            How is trump different than any other libertarian? That statement could be the big L motto.

            1. Most libertarian president EVER!

        2. see my response below…. olive branches don’t work when coupled with spit in the face. border wall, increased deficit, Muslim ban, trade war…….. yeah, no thanks.

          1. When we make mutually exclusive choices, we should only compare the things that will be different depending on the different outcomes.

            Alternative 1: A, B, C, D.

            Alternative 2: C, D, E, F

            There’s no sense in pointing out that C and D are bad, because you get them with either alternative. The decision should be made on the basis of whether you want A and B or E and F.

            Do you imagine that Biden is about to unwind the tariffs on China?

            Do you imagine that Biden is about lower the deficit?

            If not, then why are you making your choices on that basis?

            I suspect it’s because you don’t really believe that the choice between Trump and Biden was a choice between mutually exclusive alternatives. And if that’s the issue, you’re wrong.

            1. “There’s no sense in pointing out that C and D are bad, because you get them with either alternative. The decision should be made on the basis of whether you want A and B or E and F.”

              What IF I don’t want either AB or EF?

              1. That isn’t one of the choices.

                Mutually exclusive alternatives exist–whether we like them or not.

                Infiltrate one of the two major parties, and we can have some real influence on policy. Then maybe we will get to set one of the mutually exclusive alternatives as our own.

                Refuse to reward either party for approximating our favored policies, and you are ensuring that we won’t have a seat at the table where they set policy.

                1. In 2016, 81 percent of evangelicals voted for Trump. Clearly, the white evangelical Protestant vote is profoundly important to the Republican Party. It’s been impressive how evangelicals have ignored Trump’s moral shortcomings despite his impiety, however, I think you are greatly overestimating the potential influence of libertarians infiltrators in the “drop kick me Jesus” GOP. And to have this “seat at the table” all one needs to do is sit the hell down and shut the hell up any time when the conversation turns to same-sex marriage, porn, Creationism, etc? I’d rather maintain my libertarian leanings and avoid any meaningful contact with jackboots on the right or the left.

                  1. I don’t remember the last time religious, culture war issues were less important in a national election. Abortion, gay marriage, prayer in public schools, intelligent design . . .

                    None of them factored into this election in any important way.

                    1. Hush, Ken–its easier to paint a fearful picture of an authoritarian Right if the imagery comes from 1980.

                  2. Even there, remember that Calvinists (which most of those types basically are) have been the best friends of free enterprise for centuries. And all the conversation about marriage, porn, and creation has had hardly any substantive impact on public policy. We still have porn, we have same-sex marriage (although this non-Jehovist libertarian opposes it), and nobody’s going to affect how the universe was created (or will be created next time) one way or another!

                2. That isn’t one of the choices.

                  Sure it is. Her name is Jo Jorgensen. You may have heard of her.

                  1. Except Jo Jorgensen is an admitted socialist and you’re a lying hack.

                    1. Finally, someone gets it.

                      Libertarian = watered down Marxist.

                      Classical liberalism is a disease.

                    2. Everyone would be better off if they just started licking boot now. Right? Fuck off, Slaver.

                  2. You can always vote for yourself too. And have about the same chance of winning as Jo.

                    1. I’m pretty sure Lying Jeffy has voted for himself several times throughout his life.

            2. “When we make mutually exclusive choices…..”

              there is your problem….. give people the option of piss on your face or shit on your chest and tell them they must pick one….

              1. I’m not responsible for single member districts or the way they make our political system work.

                But you are responsible for how you vote.

                If Stalin comes to power because you and people like you refuse to support his opposition because his opposition is only 75% libertarian, then the fault belongs to you and people like you.

                1. if Stalin comes to power, instead of Hitler…. it is your fault….. STFU.

                  the fault is in the lemmings who fall for the lie that those are the only two options. if people did not buy the BS “exclusive choices” argument, a libertarian government would have been in place for decades…… jokers like you are the ones responsible for the fact that people limit themselves to to impossibly bad options. stop fighting real change, and we might finally get it. if you claim to be libertarian, and you push the “only two choices” lie…. you fundamentally do not get it. the “only two choices” is the problem.

                  1. I think you severely underestimate the number of people who want authoritarianism – the reason we have two major parties who don’t look like libertarians is that authoritarian-desiring people have two different views of what they want to impose on everyone else.

                    The less authoritarian members of the two parties aren’t going to suddenly wake up one election day and say, “You know, I think I really feel like voting libertarian today.” While I certainly agree with the premise of voting one’s conscience regardless of one’s preferred candidate’s chance of victory, in any situation where a libertarian’s vote has a chance of influencing the outcome (so, for example, not in the ‘safe’ red or blue states when voting for president), the pragmatic choice is the D or R candidate who is less unfriendly to liberty.

                    [Note, this example is not intended to be anything like an approximation of the 2020 presidential election]
                    If 49 of the people in our village are definitely going to vote for Stalin, and 48 are going to definitely vote for someone not quite as bad, should you and I cast our votes for Jo Jorgensen and let Stalin take power and kill us and our families, or should be vote for not-quite-as-bad and live to try to change things after the election?

                    Certainly, it’s great to work to get better options. And if, in this one election, almost half the people are clamoring for piss in the face and almost all the rest are clamoring for shit on the chest, we’re going to get one or the other, so it doesn’t actually do us any good to say, “You guys can vote for what you want, I’m choosing piss on my shoe. I’m not going to get it, and I would object less to [pick one of] piss on my face/shit on my chest, but I’d rather stick to my principles than actually influence which of these objectionable choices I’m *going* to be stuck with.”

                    1. i prefer to nip in the bud before the choices literally become hitler and stalin…… the problem with pragmatically choosing the lesser of two evils is that the two major parties have no interest in getting rid of the evil part, they just focus on telling you how evil the other guy is. that is the end result of pragmatic voting….. you get two terrible choices obsessed with convincing you how terrible the other one is.

                      if, however, you vote third party….. it forces the losing team to look within.it no longer becomes a question of how to convince you the other guy is bad, they must convince you that they are not. they need to address at least some of what we didn’t like to try and earn our votes. if they respond by putting up a better candidate they win the next election, and the roles get reversed. a third party spoiler is the only way to break the cycle and force the major parties to focus on actually being good, rather than convincing you the other one is bad.

        3. Trump is a “libertarian” in the same sense that Pinochet was a “libertarian”.

          1. My mom once threatened to wash my mouth out with soap because I used a nasty word to describe my brother.

            I responded that sometimes God makes us choose between using foul language and telling the truth.

            And the truth is that your statement is fucking idiotic.

            1. Both Trump and Pinochet are “libertarians” if you cherry-pick a few libertarian-ish policies that they adopted and ignored everything else that they did.

              After all Pinochet privatized Chile’s public pension system. Of course he also threw opponents out of helicopters. But hey, privatized pensions!

              Trump hasn’t thrown anyone out of helicopters, and he did implement a tax cut, but you have to ignore all of the other bullshit surrounding Trump in order to classify him as a “libertarian”.

              1. Oh please. You’ve just totally lost it. Pinochet the libertarian?

                1. unreason is laughable and their bots are too.

                  They will never admit Trump did Libertarian things for the simple reason that he wanted to.

                  unreason commies want America to burn so Trump running for office and doing good things is super scary for them.

                  1. It’s YOUR doing. The LP never asked you turds to threaten people at gunpoint for your nazi eugenics theories. Trump should have learned our 30-minute platform and run as a Libertarian. Cry louder, pleeeease.

                    1. I broke the sarcasmic and hank bots.

                    2. “I broke the sarcasmic and hank bots.”

                      Keep on stroking yourself.

              2. Pinochet was indeed quite libertarian among the choices there. The people he’d have thrown out of helicopters are the people commenters here would put thru wood chippers.

          2. Agreed

        4. We may never see such a libertarian president again.

          And, libertarianism aside, it’s almost certainly the last time we’ll see any such political outsiders again. Libertarianism front-and-center, even the LP appears to prefer and/or fare better with squish career politicians.

          1. ^this

            Libertarianism is all about making sure the anointed political caste remains in place

            1. Yup…they are frauds…tricking people into voting for the spoiler, thus ensuring the big government statist gets in. The Libertarian Party knows this, and understands their role in ensuring big government.

        5. As RAW wrote, “Convictions make convicts.”

          It’s fine to have in mind a vision of your ideal. it’s bad when that vision blinds you to the real possibilities of movement in that direction. You wouldn’t be like that when it comes to choosing a mate, picking a location for a home or business, hiring someone or taking a job, etc. We all have a limited range of choices in all things, yet that still gives us a lot of opportunity to make life better.

    3. I have no interest in supporting what you see as the less authoritarian party just as I have no interest in eating what you deem as the more palatable of two shit sandwiches. I do not think a perfect solution is possible in any human activity. I am wary, however, of the false dichotomy fallacy where I am told there are only one of two options. Membership in a political party reminds me of the argument people working for odious organizations use, i.e., “I’m working for change from the inside.” Yeah, and they are cashing the checks and perpetuating the system. Libertopia can never be created by any government. To the extent it is possible, it is created by individuals in spite of the government.

      1. You.
        Are.
        Full.
        Of.
        Shit.

        1. Spoken like a true Protestant.

          1. Protestants are arguably more libertarian than Catholics. Controlling central authority… which side has THAT, I wonder?????

        2. Funny how these “libertarians” come out to argue that submission to leftist totalitarianism is the only principled choice.
          Almost like they come here with a purpose that isn’t what they claim…

          1. Who’s arguing submission to “leftist totalitarianism.” Just because some of us don’t buy into the fever dream that Biden stole the election doesn’t mean we’re canoodling with AOC. The Democrats are terrible. The Republicans are a slightly different terrible. So it goes.

            1. You, and everyone else, repeating leftist talking points and “both sidez!”ing every issue regardless of evidence.
              You’re a leftist masquerading as a libertarian to convince them to stand aside while your comrades seize more power.

      2. If you haven’t come to terms with Duverger’s Law yet, you really should.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

        Dichotomies are only false when they’re false. The fact is that there were only two possible outcomes of the election, and they were mutually exclusive. None of us should pretend otherwise.

        Voting Libertarian can make sense if the object is to show how much support we have in the electorate and try to entice one of the major parties to adopt our platform–like FDR did with the Socialist Party of America’s platform of 1928. Infiltrating the Republican party is the path of least resistance.

        However, since we rewarded one of the parties with nothing but a cold shoulder–after they adopted much of our “platform” (as I’ve described it elsewhere in this thread), then there is no good reason to think one of the two parties will adopt our ideas as a way to appeal to us. We’re so principled [stupid], we won’t support major parties that adopt our ideas.

        Trump might have won this election if he’d signed off on that $3.5 trillion stimulus package. That’s what Libertarians are telling the two major parties today.

        1. For those of you who aren’t aware, FDR largely lifted the Socialist Party of America’s platform from 1928 when he became president.

          Here’s the Socialist Party of America’s platform point by point (with parentheses showing how those planks were ultimately implemented).

          http://libertarianmajority.net/socialist-party-of-america-1928-platform

          I’m sure there were fools in the Socialist Party of America who refused to support FDR for implementing their platform–because he was the lesser of two evils. If we libertarians ever achieve as much influence and power as the Socialist Party of America did by enticing FDR to lift their agenda and implement it, it’ll be amazing.

          The Libertarian Party cannot win a national election or control of Congress within a system of single member districts. But that’s okay! We don’t need to win national elections. We just need to influence the part that does win national elections to the same extent that the Socialist Party of America circa 1928 influenced FDR. Right now, we’re doing everything we can to ensure that no one in the Republican party bothers to try to attract our vote.

          If the libertarian vote won’t support a president that negotiates a peace deal with Afghanistan, kills a $3.5 trillion stimulus bill, opposes the Green New Deal, fights to cut $772 billion in spending on Medicaid, opposes Medicare for All, and avoids a war in Syria–because of what he didn’t do?! Then they might as well go back to being tax and spenders.

          1. I’m NOT playing this game. It’s got to STOP. We’re going the wrong way. Those two Parties are HOT GARBAGE and I will NOT vote for either of them.

            1. The problem is that we don’t get to choose not to participate. Biden promised on his campaign website(s) to implement the Green New Deal, launch a war on guns like we’ve never seen before, and implement Medicare for All. And he doesn’t plan to solicit your willing participation for any of those policies.

              Mutually exclusive alternative suck. Some things are beyond our control, and that always drives me crazy. Wanting to be free to make choices for myself about my own future is what makes me libertarian. And sometimes we’re stuck choosing between mutually exclusive alternatives that both stink. Still, to refuse to exercise your choice between them . . . it’s a cop out. Your autonomy should be important to you even if the choice is between a rock and a hard place.

              Victim of collision on the open sea
              Nobody ever said
              life was free.
              Sink?
              Swim?
              Go down with the ship?
              Use your freedom of choice!

              —-Mothersbaugh

              If we wanted avoid Biden’s authoritarian and socialist policies, then we needed to vote for Trump. There’s just no way to avoid that fact–even if you refuse to exercise your autonomy. Also please understand that refusing to exercise your autonomy in this case doesn’t make you principled. Being principled is about standing by your principles–even when it’s hard. If we bend over for Biden’s authoritarianism and socialism because voting for Trump is hard, then whatever else we are, we are not principled. We’re just willfully obtuse.

              1. My choices are limited by my imagination and resources. The tired Republicans versus Democrats debate presumes the United States is the only option. It is not.

                1. Actually, your choices are constrained by reality, and if reality only gives you two mutually exclusive outcomes to choose from, then that’s all you have.

                  1. So if I am comfortably living in a country not the United States, Ken, then how much does it really matter to me whether it’s Team Red or Team Blue presiding? Governments are always the enemy to individuals. You’re operating under the idea that governments can be better. I’m operating under the idea that governments can and should be avoided.

                    1. Because you persist in the belief that governments are equally bad because they’re all bad to some extent doesn’t change the fact that some are far worse than others or the fact that the government Biden is promising is much worse than the one Trump offered.

                    2. Ken, the only one persisting in the belief that the two major parties are equally bad is the straw man in your head. Please stop if you want to have conversations. Both bad doesn’t mean equally bad. Yes you think Trump is less-bad. I agree. But that doesn’t mean I’m obligated to choose between cyanide and arsenic. They’re both poison.

                    3. When was the last time you criticized the left sarc? Please post it. You actually spent most of the year virtually only criticizing the conservative side even they are more libertarian in every way. Youre just ignorant. You want to just complain. You offer nothing of substance.

                    4. You only see what you want to see, JesseAz. Scroll around. Read some of my comments that aren’t in response to assholes. You might learn something about libertarians. Because if anyone here is an ignorant fuck, it’s you.

              2. Guess what, a vote for anyone not named Biden was also a vote against Biden.

            2. “I’m NOT playing this game. It’s got to STOP.”

              You don’t really have a choice anymore.
              The battle is over, and you’ve chosen to passively accept totalitarianism.

              1. You don’t really have a choice anymore.
                The battle is over, and you’ve chosen to passively accept totalitarianism.

                This right here! ^^^
                The libertarians aren't winning! They are losing! They decided that because the republican party wasn't perfect enough, didn't embrace their drug habits, among other issues, that they will instead accept totalitarian socialist fucktard crap. The fake libertarians here can revel in their own retardation and stupidity. Fry in your own perceived self righteousness and narcissistic posturing.

            3. A vote for the Libertarian Party is a vote for the Democrat party. You’re falling for a scam.

    4. That’s rather selective, don’t you think? You cherry pick what you want, we’ll choose what we want.

    5. Two can play at that game.

      One party has a president promising to build a wall and restrict the free and peaceful movement of people. One president has waged a trade war against free markets. One president has appeased and flattered dictators across the globe and made disastrous deals with murderous regimes.

      tHe OtHeR pArTy OpPoSeS aLl Of ThAt

      And yes, that rebuttal is ridiculous. Opposing the problems with Trump isn’t a viable reason to vote for Joe fucking Biden. But the same applies to Donald Trump. He’s so irredeemably awful that saying one is better than the other is like deciding which shit stinks the worst. Next time, try a candidate who doesn’t suck so bad.

      1. “One party has a president promising to build a wall and restrict the free and peaceful movement of people. One president has waged a trade war against free markets. One president has appeased and flattered dictators across the globe and made disastrous deals with murderous regimes.”

        As I said, Trumps goals on immigration were wrong, but Biden’s solutions (including DACA) violate the separation of powers.

        As far as the trade wars go, I don’t see how Biden is better than Trump in that regard. I do not expect Biden to lower those tariffs one iota. It’s important that the differences between them be actual differences.

        In regards to making deals with dictators, you mean like the deal Trump made with Putin to wipe out ISIS in Syria? Do you not understand that was the alternative to war in Syria?

        Do you mean President Trump making deals with regimes like the Crown Prince in Saudi Arabia who had journalists tortured to death? Because making nice with those guys is the alternative to war with Iran. Pragmatism is the way Reagan won the Cold War, and there isn’t anything unlibertarian about it.

        The legitimate purpose of government is to protect our rights, and the legitimate purpose of the military and foreign policy is to protect our rights from foreign threats. If it is in the best interests of the United State to make nice with vicious dictators to secure our rights, then that’s exactly what we should do. The Commander-in-chief has no business putting the interests of the Kurds or Saudi journalists of the feminists of Afghanistan above the security interests of the American people.

        If defeating the Nazis and chasing the Japanese out of China is in the best interests of protecting the rights of the American people from foreign threats, then we should absolutely make an alliance with Stalin to effectuate that outcome. Do you disagree?

        Trump’s pragmatism in making deals with Putin, the Saudi Crown Prince, and the Taliban in Afghanistan are the alternative to neocon war. I’d love to think Iran, Al Qaeda, ISIS, and other enemies would leave us alone if only we let them be, but I don’t believe that to be true.

        1. Bwaaaaah hah hah! This is better’n the commie dems whining in 2016 that our 4 million votes could have picked Giant Douche over Turd Sandwich. We have problems of our own with 5th column infiltrators you looters keep injecting into the LP. You want sympathy? Call Billy Graham!

          1. Does anybody else understand what this means?

            1. Hank always has the best drugs.

          2. Sometimes you’re like the reincarnation of Hihn.

            1. Hank is my boy’s imaginary friend.

      2. It is kind of retarded to call China a free market trading partner, but there you are.

        The flattery of dictators is called diplomacy so not sure what option you’d support for bringing them to the table, threats of force maybe? Much libertarian there. Not sure what appeasement you’re talking about because the Iran deal was Obama/Biden, but they continue the false comparison.

        The wall you have half a point, but only if you’re an open border zealot with no concern for real world impact.

        1. You’d have a point too if the trade war was only limited to China but it extends to (but not limited to) Mexico, Canada, the EU, South Korea… so its kind of retarded of you to suggest that it is only China.

          1. Have you been paying attention to Biden’s plans on trade? He sees the artist formerly known as the Pacific Partnership as a means to inflict more trade sanctions on China with more leverage from more countries. I see no reason to think Biden will undo anything Trump has done on trade. In what way is Biden superior ti Trump on trade?

      3. “One president has appeased and flattered dictators across the globe and made disastrous deals with murderous regimes.”

        Joe Biden’s literal first act as President is going to be to jump back into Obama’s nuclear deal with Iran.

    6. True, but we also have a “first past the post” system in most states (Georgia being an exception where a plurality won’t win it). So a third party could win 34-33-33 percent by appealing to both sides (like, just spitballing here, but fiscally conservative and socially liberal).

      Just because one party is worse than the other on several key items (and appears to be headed to becoming even more worse) doesn’t mean the only solution is Plan B.

      1. Of course, Gary Johnson ran on just such a “split the difference” strategy, and was suitably well qualified (2 term governor), but only got 3 percent. He wasn’t famous enough or rich enough or charismatic enough to get past the initial polling credibility hurdle (“I like him but he’s only polling at 8%, I’d better vote against Trump/Clinton”).

        The model I’m thinking of is Jesse Ventura, elected as an Independent in Minnesota, who was famous enough to overcome the initial polling credibility barrier.

        Ross Perot nearly did it at the Presidential level too, being somewhat famous and rich enough to buy a seat at the table, until voters lost confidence in his stability (which doesn’t seem to be a problem for candidates these days.)

        1. Perot’s “July: I’m not running, find someone else. October: No, wait, I am running.” didn’t help.

        2. The LP has only had 50 years to implement this strategy, they need more time!

    7. Ku-Klux Ken is still wetting his Depends over us having the GALL to reject superstitious girl-bullying and deliberate murder and robbery of peaceful citizens because plant leaves are avatars of Satan. In fact, the Dems won because they adopted the 1972 LP plank that morphed into the Roe v Wade Decision, AND copied LP policy to not cage people like rats for choosing substances other than Holy Water or Bud Light. Those murdering fanatics–led by Lindsey Coathanger Graham–stabbed Boss Trump’s chance of winning! If Red Chinese firing squads come searching, I will personally help them root out Army of Ghawd republicans before dealing with them as they deserve.

      1. Lol, Hank is definitely Sqrlsy. He’s got all the exact same ticks.

    8. Well said Ken. Libertarian leaning people generally have the proper vision for the future. But they are terrible at charting a path from here to there, generally going with a version of ‘if i can’t have everything I want now, then I’ll just take nothing’. Politics is about compromise, whether we like it or not. And our goals require us to play the long game. Clearly there is next to no overlap between the Democrat party and libertarian principles. There is meaningful (but certainly not perfect) overlap with the Republican party in general and with Trump’s specific policies. We can either try to try to influence the Republican party from the inside, or have no influence whatsoever from the outside.

      1. And it doesn’t need to be this way every election. This is the first time I’ve vote in 20 years, although I may have voted for Badnarik. I don’t remember.

        In past elections, there wasn’t much of a difference between Democrats and Republicans.

        This wasn’t one of those elections. There was a huge difference between Trump and Biden.

    9. This is the Utilitarian Monster fallacy. Cowards seek to throw women, blacks and hippies out to be eaten one by one, just as Germans delivered up Jews. But the cowards are themselves eaten eventually as they so well deserve, by their own Utilitarian Monster. No big loss.

    10. @Ken Shultz
      I don’t know which party you are talking about. This years election was between a milquetoast centrist who supports bog-standard center-Democrat policies and an authoritarian populist who has some rather frightening views that he is fortunately too incompetent to implement. Neither choice was particularly appealing. It seems like the bad stuff one would do was approximately bad as the bad stuff the other would do. Might as well vote your conscience in that case.

      This stuff about how the Democractic party is full of authoritarian socialists is nonsense. It’s the Republican equivalent of those lying Democrats who claim all Republicans are secret KKK members who want to bring back segregation. The Democrats have a few crazies in one wing like AOC, but they are no more representative of the Democratic party than crazies like Roy Moore are representative of the Republicans. The Democrats are no more likely to implement a Green New Deal and a total gun ban than the Republicans are likely to implement mandatory conversion therapy and racial segregation.

      We heard this nonsense before back in 2016 when people claimed that bog-standard centrist Hillary Clinton was going to implement full scale socialism, and Trump was our only hope. We heard it before in 2008 when they said the same thing about Obama. It was a lie then, it’s a lie now.

      1. “The Democrats have a few crazies in one wing like AOC, but they are no more representative of the Democratic party than crazies like Roy Moore are representative of the Republicans.”

        The chairman of the DNC called AOC ‘the future of our party’, the RNC refused to support Roy Moore in his Senate race. They are not the same.

      2. “The Democrats have a few crazies in one wing like AOC, but they are no more representative of the Democratic party than crazies like Roy Moore are representative of the Republicans.”

        Joe Biden has promised to pass the Green New Deal, launch a war on guns like we’ve never seen before (including a national gun confiscation policy), and he’s promised to implement Medicare for All.

        All three of these things are advocated on Joe Biden’s own campaign website(s).

        If that isn’t mainstream Democrat enough for you, then what is?

    11. Ken Shultz, personally I was planning on voting for Trump until the multipronged shitstorm of 2020 hit. And that’s mostly as an “anybody but democrats with a chance of winning” vote cause even before 2020 modern democrats are quite literally communists hell bent on destroying freedom, capitalism and any semblance of the US as it was originally founded. I voted for Jorgensen knowing she has no chance in hell.
      What changed my mind on Trump in 2020 is mostly how he handled not the coronavirus but the totalitarian overreaction to coronavirus. He touted and approved a bailout/stimulus package that make Obama’s look like pocket change. The $600/week unemployment boost was a disgrace that would make Andrew Yang’s tiny dick hard. The CDC declaring you can’t evict or foreclose in 2020 is 1 tiny step away from government expropriation of private rental properties. After all this happened on the federal level with him in charge, you cannot possibly say this guy is a capitalist, fiscally responsible or much better than a democrat regarding endless welfare.
      I’ll give him some credit for not imposing national mask mandates or lockdowns but the fact that he didn’t say a peep regarding pretty much every state in the union implementing martial law and the hands down worst constitutional violations to Americans in peace time ever is disgraceful. I would have expected the feds to file lawsuits and injunctions against governors and mayors at the very least. That shows to me a weak commitment to upholding the constitutional rights of American citizens and taking 0 action when the whole of America effectively became totalitarian. Even if the feds didn’t implement it, America has become a totalitarian nation by state, county and city decree on his watch while he idly did nothing to stop it. In addition his big talk and no action regarding squashing Antifa and BLM rioting terrorists didn’t help either.
      It’s sad, but if Trump/modern republicans is the best we can do for freedom and free market capitalism, the US is done. Might as well buy some property in Costa Rice (while the dollar still has any value) or somewhere and renounce your citizenship. All republicans are now are 10-15 years behind democrats in supporting communism and totalitarianism. There is no remotely pro free market or pro freedom major party in the US anymore.

      1. “He touted and approved a bailout/stimulus package that make Obama’s look like pocket change. The $600/week unemployment boost was a disgrace”

        I agree that the first stimulus bill was bad, some of the regulations were awful, and I would rather that Trump opposed it.

        On the other hand, Biden and the Democrats supported that and a whole lot more–in an additional $3.5 stimulus bill that Trump single-handedly destroyed. And that’s a difference!

        In addition to that $3.5 trillion stimulus bill, Joe Biden is advocating the Green New Deal on his campaign website, which he says will cost another $2 trillion–but which everyone else (including AOC) says will cost more like $10 trillion.

        “Biden believes the Green New Deal is a crucial framework for meeting the climate challenges we face. It powerfully captures two basic truths, which are at the core of his plan: (1) the United States urgently needs to embrace greater ambition on an epic scale to meet the scope of this challenge, and (2) our environment and our economy are completely and totally connected.”

        —-Joe Biden

        https://joebiden.com/climate-plan/#

        Because Trump’s support for the initial pandemic bill was bad doesn’t mean he isn’t substantially better than Biden and the Democrats. Trump called the Green New Deal an insane plot to destroy the American economy. Whatever else Trump’s faults are, he’s also advocating at least $3.5 trillion + $2 trillion GND less than Biden and the Democrats–and that’s assuming the Green New Deal only costs $2 trillion like Biden says.

        If Trump’s support for the initial pandemic bill is like a kick in the stomach, Biden and the Democrats spending plans are like getting shot in the face. Because I don’t want either is not a good reason to effectively vote for getting shot in the face in addition to being kicked in the stomach. After all, the Democrats did not oppose the initial pandemic deal on the basis of fiscal conservatism. The question is whether we should have voted to be shot in the face in addition to being kicked in the stomach.

        1. Ken, you just don’t get it. Or maybe you do, but are refusing to acknowledge it.

          Most of us here agree that Biden is worse than Trump on a number of issues. That alone however doesn’t justify supporting Trump *on his own merits*. You have to make the case for Trump WITHOUT using the words Biden, Obama, Democrats, AOC, Bernie, liberals, progressives, etc. If you can’t, then you are just engaging in the usual tribal scaremongering trick that the two teams repeatedly use. “You must vote for US in order to stop Team Evil!!!!” It is just a lame trick and I’m not going to fall for it ever again.

        2. Ken, yes, Biden and the democrats are worse. But the overton window has shifted so far left in the past 15 years. Republicans are really just communist lite now, they have little respect for private property, personal responsibility or individual autonomy, also believe in this money grows on trees/stimulus/bailout/modern monetary theory garbage, have 0 principled objection to implementing martial law totalitarian tyranny (and over a virus that isn’t a serious threat to anybody who isn’t already old and/or sick enough that pretty much any ailment is a serious threat). Refusal to tell BLM terrorists the truth that blacks are shot more by police per capita cause they commit a way disproportionate amount of violent crime per capita. Refusal to call the entire green movement a facade for communism which is what it really is. They lack any balls or principles, they simply trail the left by 10-15 years in their embrace of god awful ideas. Republicans embracing milquetoast pseudo conservatives like Bush Sr. (read my lips, no new taxes), Bush Jr. (we’re gonna have to abandon the free market in order to save it, no child left behind, medicare part D) and now Trump (god forbid interest rates are above 2.5%, damn near trillion per year deficits during an economic boom and this is all before 2020) has gotten us to this point. Republicans have not had a shred of free market credibility since Reagan.
          Like I said, if this is the best we can do, America is done. I can only hope when we have an unprecedented economic collapse, complete societal breakdown and/or civil war what will come out of the ashes will have a shred of value for freedom and capitalism. But honestly I seriously doubt that too especially with say 75% of those under 40 holding ideals closer to Karl Marx than Adam Smith and a disturbing amount of older folks who should know better (who were educated before schools were outright indoctrination camps) still believe in this garbage.

          1. Hard to disagree with any of that. Well said.

  5. Then you’re useless to everyone. Hell you can’t even be a good spoiler.

  6. so much more to do. spoiler status in multiple states, in a year when the fear of the “other” propaganda was at it’s highest, is a step in the right direction, but it does seem to not be enough. the radicalization of the bases means we have to make it much more painful to continue to ignore us.

    1. Search “Why Voting Libertarian Works.” Our leveraged spoiler votes repeal bad laws or let the looters get crushed by defeat trying to preserve them. This is no more complicated than their fallacies in favor of accepting Biden because they would rather have that than let Trump govern without sending men with guns to threaten doctors. All they had to do was NOT point guns at girls. But Noooo… listen to Lindsey Graham. That redneck with green teeth cost Trump the election. The Libertarian party planks the Dems copies won them the election. Case closed.

  7. “We can no longer leave this to the private sector,” insists Biden’s website in a section about pandemic response. “The Supply Commander should work with every governor to determine their needs, and then coordinate production and delivery of those needs in a timely and efficient manner.”

    “And while we’re living in fantasy land, let’s just give everyone their own rainbow farting unicorns and their own pixie fairy so that everyone will have an endless supply of fairy dust. Just vote for me and all your dreams will come true.”

    1. Makes perfect sense. Start with a Pandemic Response Supply Commander, then move on to a Housing Crisis Supply Commander, a Food Supply Commander, and a Transportation Commander. Before long we can have an Entertainment Commander, and a Reparations Commander.

    2. “Were we directed from Washington when to sow, & when to reap, we should soon want bread” (TJ3)

  8. “Despite growing recognition that libertarians matter, Democrats and Republicans show little sign of extending an olive branch to people who oppose efforts to make government more abusive and intrusive. They know we exist, but they keep us in opposition.”

    President Trump single-handedly killed a $3.5 trillion stimulus bill and replaced it with nothing.

    President Trump fought like hell to pass a bill that would have cut $772 billion from Medicaid–the first president to fight for a bill to cut a socialist entitlement program and maybe the last.

    President Trump opposed the Green New Deal.

    President Trump rid us of the ObamaCare regulations that classified formerly part time workers and full time workers–and enticed companies everywhere to slash their unskilled workers’ pay in order to avoid having to buy them inflated healthcare policies.

    President Trump slashed the corporate tax rate.

    In the wake of a mass shooting in Las Vegas, president Trump gave us a bumpstock ban. Does anyone imagine our gun rights would have fared better under Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden?

    Where Barack Obama raided state legal medical marijuana facilities in California hundreds of times during his reign, President Trump respected the validity of state law.

    President Trump negotiated and signed a peace deal and a full withdrawal agreement with the Taliban to get us out of Afghanistan.

    If none of these things look like an extended libertarian olive branch to you, then you’re being willfully blind.

    1. see how much he likes our rights…. he “only” banned bump-stocks……. thank you, master!!!! that is totally libertarian!!!

      he also obsessed with a border wall, pushed terrible child separating immigration enforcement, shit all over free trade, and has continually expressed contempt for freedom of the press. olive branches don’t do much when you follow it up with spit in the face.

      1. Look at how badly you have to stretch to shill for the left.
        You’re a joke.

        1. Pointing out Trump’s non-libertarian policies equals shilling for the left?

          The only joke here is that you actually believe that. Sorry dude, but that’s really, really fucking stupid.

          1. I pointed the bad policy out myself because it’s exactly the kind of honest evaluations libertarians need to make in the real world.

            Yes, Trump’s bumpstock ban is bad.

            On Biden’s campaign website, he promised to ban “assault weapons”, track all the assault weapons that are currently in circulation, ban the sale of both guns and ammo online, and institute a national relinquishment [confiscation] policy.

            Should I or shouldn’t I pretend that Trump is just as bad as Biden on gun rights because of Trump’s bumpstock ban?

            1. HTML, what is it?

            2. I get it, and I agree. Biden is worse. But it’s still Turn Sandwich vs Giant Douche. They both stink.

              1. But today you only get one or the other. And one stinks less. You don’t get what you want today. You can potentially get what you want in the future, however, if you are willing to work with the lesser of two evils to make it less evil over time. Or you can keep waiting for that perfect (and electable) libertarian candidate to come along.

                1. I get it. I really do. But I can’t do it. I will confess that I voted for McCain *gross* and I felt dirty after. Before and after I’d thrown away my vote for a Libertarian but that time I got caught up in the radio hype. So I voted for one of the majors. And I felt like I’d taken one for the team. Fucked a fat chick. Whatever. I needed a shower. Yuck.

                  1. Wait wait wait, you voted for John fucking McCain, and now constantly rip on libertarians who voted for Trump? Wow.

                    1. i can’t speak for sarcasmic, but to me there is a clear distinction between voting for and worshiping like an orange god.

            3. Look at unreason apologists go with Sarcasmic.

              Both are bad….blah blah.

              It’s such horseshit and isn’t convincing people.

              1. The only thing you’re good at convincing people is that you’re somewhere between stupid and insane.

                1. You poor guy. You dont speak for anyone else. Except unreason maybe. They need you to defend them.

          2. Yes, sarc, pathetically reaching for a way to draw equivalence between the left and the not-left is shilling for the left.

            1. What I’m trying to do is get you to do a little introspection. You’re stooping.

    2. If none of these things look like an extended libertarian olive branch to you, then you’re being willfully blind.

      Hey, Ken, how about:

      President Trump wastes money building stupid walls in the desert to keep out foreigners.

      President Trump raises taxes on Americans in the form of tariffs and then uses those tariffs to bribe other Americans, namely farmers, to vote for him. For all the times Democrats are accused of buying votes via welfare, Trump sure took it to a new level with his vote-buying schemes.

      President Trump spent money like a drunken sailor. He is empirically WORSE than every other president, including the hated Obama, when it comes to his spending record.

      President Trump is a narcissistic megalomaniac who is not invested in any particular policy or ideology, only in what gives him more attention and more adoration from his cult-like followers. Libertarians everywhere should be absolutely appalled at the Dear Leader tone of his presidency and should not support this strongman-type of approach to democratic leadership.

      President Trump, because of his narcissism, seeks to undermine the very foundations of American democracy itself with his baseless claims that the election was stolen. It is one thing for random Internet crackpots to propagate conspiracy theories, it is quite another for the leader of the nation, as well as a cult leader of his own crazed fanbase, to spread these claims. Democratic processes only work when the people, broadly speaking, have trust that they are performing as intended. When one powerful person seeks to undermine that trust for his own personal benefit, the long-term result can be very bad.

      And how about:

      President Trump is a bigoted xenophobic asshole who does not respect the inherent dignity of all people, let alone all Americans. Of course every president seeks to cast the opposition in the most negative light possible. But Trump took it to a new level when he embraces the whole right-wing “real Murican” schtick, that his supporters are the only ones deserving of consideration and respect while everyone else ought to be treated as less than second-class citizens, if even that. And foreigners don’t even make the list. They are the perpetual scapegoats for everything bad, in Trump’s world.

      Which is more important to you, Ken? To get a tax cut, or to see that every person’s liberty and dignity is respected?

      1. As we say here in Maine, ayuh.

      2. Id say fuck your dignity. But being the serially dishonest POS you are you have none.

        1. What did he say that was dishonest? Seriously. If you’re gonna throw out accusations you might want to back it up with some example, unless you’re just perpetuating a meme.

          1. LOL

            There, that’s more than you deserve.

            1. So you got nuthin. Gotcha.

              1. Yep, nothing at all.

                Nobody has ever made a point of Jeff’s repeated dishonesty ever.

                Your opinion, such as it is, is not my concern.

                1. You call him dishonest with no examples of his dishonesty, and he’s the dishonest one?

                  Kinda like how nobody can find a single post of mine that supports Biden, but according to the narrative I voted for the guy.

                  Hmmmmmmm….

                    1. Own what? Your baseless accusations? Dude, you’re fucking pathetic.

          2. Lol. Full 100 lefty defender now.

      3. “…President Trump is a narcissistic megalomaniac who is not invested in any particular policy or ideology, only in what gives him more attention and more adoration from his cult-like followers…”

        Jeff is a two-bit psychoanalyst posting bullshit like this, and therefore no one should vote for Trump.
        See how easy it is? One asshole with raging case of TDS tells us all how to vote.

        1. What was wrong with jeff’s statement? Seems spot on to me.

        2. He’s not psychoanalyzing, he’s parroting

          1. Says the guy who parrots Mark Levin.

            1. News to me.
              Haven’t heard or seen anything from Levin in weeks or months.
              Please let me know what I was parroting.

              1. I stumbled on him last night and it sounded like you wrote his script. If you say it’s coincidence then I believe you. You may be a dick but you’re an honest dick.

      4. President Trump is a narcissistic megalomaniac who is not invested in any particular policy or ideology, only in what gives him more attention and more adoration from his cult-like followers. Libertarians everywhere should be absolutely appalled at the Dear Leader tone of his presidency and should not support this strongman-type of approach to democratic leadership.

        Scoring according to style points? Maybe not being invested in ideology is an advantage. It may be the best way to get libertarian change across, i.e. by sneaking it past our enemies by making it not look like an ideology. Did it ever occur to you that a lot of libertarian policies would be more palatable to the voters if voters didn’t recognize them as part of a libertarian tapestry?

        1. Psychological insight isn’t big within most libertarians.

        2. Maybe not being invested in ideology is an advantage.

          Only if you think Divine Right of Kings had some merit to it.

    3. President Trump single-handedly killed a $3.5 trillion stimulus bill and replaced it with nothing.

      You’re giving the wrong guy credit for that. You should give credit to Mitch McConnell for stopping all talk of a second stimulus plan. Because TRUMP wanted another huge stimulus plan of his own.

      https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/10/politics/stimulus-talks-pelosi-senate-gop-trump/index.html

      Trump’s $1.8 trillion offer is more than the $1.6 trillion put on the table earlier this week but remains well below the $2.2 trillion in the bill House Democrats passed last week.

      The President said Friday that he’d like to see a bigger stimulus than what’s currently being floated by either Democrats or his administration, but congressional Republicans remain opposed to a price tag over $1 trillion or any amount of new aid. Senate Republicans have united behind the price tag of $500 billion.

      So Trump is totally fine with spending trillions, as long as HE gets the credit for it. Oh and coincidentally, if Trump got his way, it would have been right before Election Day. Huh.

      So take your narrative of “Trump saved us from more stimulus boondoggles” and shove it up your ass.

      1. and shove it up your ass.

        Be nice to Ken. He means well.

        1. The senate Republicans were even better than Trump on the stimulus, at that point in the negotiations, but that doesn’t do anything to refute the argument that the Republicans are substantially better than the Democrats. The comparison isn’t senate Republicans to Trump. The comparison is Trump to Biden or the Republicans to Democrats.

          Meanwhile, the negotiations on the stimulus fell apart because Trump refused to bail out the states. Pelosi wouldn’t sign off on a deal that didn’t bail out California, Illinois, and New York and their pension liabilities, and Trump refused to sign onto any bill that did that. Yes, Trump was willing to go bigger than the Senate Republicans, but if Trump had been willing to sign onto the House Democrats’ plan to bail out the states, the senate Republicans probably would have fallen in line. In other words, that $3.5 trillion stimulus package would have passed if it weren’t for Trump.

          https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/10/23/trump-says-he-doesnt-want-stimulus-bill-to-bail-out-democratic-states.html

          The House Democrats’ $3.5 trillion stimulus package was completely undermined and ignored after Trump used an executive order to extend unemployment benefits without any input from Congress. If Trump hadn’t done that, the senate Republicans almost certainly would have passed Pelosi’s $3.5 trillion stimulus package–just to get unemployment benefits extended. No reason to think the senate Republicans wouldn’t have voted for the stimulus if it were the only way to extend unemployment benefits.

          And it should be noted that seeing a president refuse to sign off on Pelosi’s demands and get a $3.5 trillion stimulus to sign onto two weeks before a presidential election–and in the middle of a recession–is an amazing feat. We may never see a president do something that brazenly fiscally conservative again in our lifetimes. And the fact is that there was no stimulus package because of it.

          Thank you, President Trump.

          1. P.S. Is it really that hard to understand the stimulus was not passed, and it wasn’t passed because the Republicans refused to pass it and Trump refused to sign it?

          2. Oh, so now you are shifting the goalposts. Trump was willing to sign on to a stimulus bill EVEN LARGER than what Democrats wanted.

            Let me quote this again, maybe this time it will sink in:

            The President said Friday that he’d like to see a bigger stimulus than what’s currently being floated by either Democrats or his administration,

            So why again should libertarians be praising Trump? Because he was willing to spend just as much money as Democrats were willing to spend, just on different things?

            Sure seems to me, Ken, that you are demanding that we libertarians praise Trump for being willing to spend more money than Democrats wanted to spend. Is that what you’re saying, Ken? Hmm?

            1. I think of Ken as Tony Shalhoub’s character on The Marvelous Mrs. Maise.

              1. great show

                1. Oops. Forgot to change to your sock.

              2. The fact is that the $3.5 trillion stimulus bill was killed because Trump and the Republicans refused to sign onto it.

                The fact is that instead of that $3.5 trillion stimulus bill, Trump and the Republicans passed nothing.

                And the fact is that if the Democrats had controlled the senate and Hillary or Joe were in the White House, that $3.5 trillion stimulus bill would have passed.

                The fact is that the Republicans and Trump remain head and shoulders better than the Democrats on this issue–as well as a plethora of others.

          3. Today I didn’t spend a quadrillion dollars. I’m such a fiscal conservative! It could have been so much worse!

            1. Yes, refusing to spend $3.5 trillion is better than spending $3.5 trillion.

              1. “But your honor, what about all the people I didn’t kill?”

    4. As president, Trump generally acted in his own personal interest. You certainly can argue things like tax cuts are supported by libertarians. Of course, libertarians would prefer concomitant spending cuts. As noted below, for every good thing you cite, someone can rattle off bad things. Your basic argument seems to be, “Trump and the Republicans are the best we can do.” I understand your perspective, but simply don’t accept it.

      1. Your basic argument seems to be, “Trump and the Republicans are the best we can do.” I understand your perspective, but simply don’t accept it.

        aye

        1. I think it is more accurate to say that ‘the republicans are the best we can do today’. So we can move in the right direction or the wrong direction. We can either try to wield small but growing influence from within, or none from without. Libertarians need to learn to play the long game. We can’t just jump directly to the future we envision, we need to take the path, step by step.

      2. “Trump and the Republicans are the best we can do.”

        In Candide, Voltaire took a character representing Leibniz to task for saying that God made the world as good as it can possibly be.

        In reality, that wasn’t what Leibniz was saying. He was saying that God made the world as good as it can be–given what is possible. That even God is subject to the constraints of reality.

        God can’t make a four sided equilateral triangle in two dimensions because then it would be a square.

        We can’t win the White House or a majority in Congress through elections because we have single member districts.

        That doesn’t mean we can’t get what we want. It just means that we need to use the path of least resistance. And because of single member districts, the path of least resistance is infiltrating one of the two major parties.

        One of the parties is fundamentally hostile to capitalism, and is become increasingly authoritarian and increasingly socialist with each election cycle. I suggest we infiltrate the other one.

    5. Ken,
      I agree with every single word you say.
      Here on “Reason”, you are the only voice of reason.
      I will say that it is Trumps’ ban on bump stocks that drove me out of the Republican Party.
      As a gun enthusiast who had multiple bumpstocks and bump triggers, I had to get rid of my legally acquired personal property after his executive action.
      The socialists have worked her way up and take over the Democrat party.
      It seems to me that libertarians have a roadmap to follow to take over the Republican Party

  9. Democrats give lip service to personal liberty while being openly hostile to economic liberty.

    Republicans give lip service to economic liberty while being openly hostile to personal liberty.

    So yeah, libertarians aren’t welcome in either party.

    *cue the Trump is most libertarian president evah! retorts*

    1. Rather Republicans used to give lip service to economic liberty. Then came the trade war.

    2. Um, do the Democrats give any lip service to personal liberty? They’ve been pretty openly hostile to it over the last… I’ll be conservative and say, ten years.

      1. Next article, Dems are proposing a repeal of marijuana prohibition on a federal level. Just an example.

        1. Wow, Earth shattering.

          1. When was the last time Republicans did anything to restore personal liberty?

            1. Apparently you don’t think economic liberty is personal liberty.

              1. You mean the freedom to do business with whomever I choose, regardless of political borders? Republicans don’t like that. Don’t like that at all.

                1. You are a joke if you are trying to argue the Democrats are a better alternative on economic liberty.

                  1. That the dyed in the wool proggs are toosilly’s only defenders does nothing to help his case.

                    1. Pointing out that Republicans are enemies of economic liberty equals support for Democrats? I don’t know what world you live in, but it must really suck if that’s how your mind works.

                    2. Arguing both sides are equal is just proof youre an ignorant fuck.

                  2. That wasn’t what I was arguing, but thanks for responding to something I never said.

                    1. So, you weren’t arguing, merely noting that no party is an ideal.

                      Ok, thanks for nothing.

                      Now try making a real choice. Real choices being one with real consequences. Oh wait, you have. Multiple times and your choice is always proggy.

                    2. Multiple times and your choice is always proggy.

                      Yet nobody can find a single post of mine that supports that. Sure dude. Believe that if it makes you happy.

                    3. Coming from the guy who thinks Jeff is honest…

                    4. Coming from a guy who makes baseless accusations.

                    5. Step totally baseless. Nobody has ever pointed out Jeff’s rank dishonesty here.

                      Or maybe you’ve never noticed.

                      So, be honest. Deny seeing any such examples.

                    6. Still waiting for an example. Specifically from his post today where you accused him of dishonesty. C’mon. If it’s so glaringly obvious as you say then you should be able to easily provide something for me.

                    7. Be nice to sarc, he already bought the cosplay outfit.

                2. Neither Republicans nor Democrats give you the freedom to do business with whoever you choose regardless of political borders. In fact, Democrats are arguably far worse in that regard than Republicans.

                  1. *ahem* trade war *ahem*

                    1. Pretrump trade war?

                    2. Both parties engage in trade wars. It’s peanuts compared to all the other restrictions Democrats favor on international trade.

                3. Your freedom to do business with a thief increases the costs of the person i choose to do business with. You are too ignorant to understand this.

              1. Loosening the noose. Yay.

            2. Tax cuts. Reduced regulation. First step act. Reducing licensing requirements. Charter schools.

              Youre a fucming ignorantly these days. All these things lead to individual choices.

            3. Gun rights cases Heller and McDonald were both supported by most Republicans. On the right to bear arms the R’s were pretty good and better on freedom of speech than Democrats.

              Criminal justice reform had support from Republicans.

              By any rational measure, Rand Paul, Mike Lee and Thomas Massie are much better than their Democrat counterparts AOC, Pressly, Omar etc.

            4. Do guns count as personal liberty? How about school choice?

          2. Can Sudafed be far behind?

      2. False choice. Libertarians do not claim fealty to democrats nor republicans.

        1. Real libertarians don’t claim fealty to libertarianism either.

          1. Quoth the superstitious cowardly girl-bullier whose Army of God tool just got defeated. Robert Dear had the guts to at least walk the talk himself. There is plenty of room in the next padded cell for equally pro-live rednecks with green teeth. Trump lost because superstitious creeps seek to have men with guns force girls to reproduce by force. You are rapists.

            1. You’ve always been wrong about everything, Hank, but you never sound more unhinged than when you talk about Comstock, prohibition, or abortion. The legal status of abortion hasn’t been in question for almost 50 years, and there’s been precisely zero movement in the direction of changing that. Prohibition was repealed almost 90 years ago. How is it possible to have such a persecution complex over issues on which your side has soundly achieved victory? Stop posting until you can come and join us in the 21st century.

          2. Exactly! Fealty is surrender of the mind and the mind is the reason that liberty is important.

        2. Sure are a lot of people round here suddenly Libertarians when Biden was crowned by the media.

          Watch them all go back to bashing Trump during his second term.

      3. Gay marriage and abortion. That’s it.

    3. I don’t know of examples of the past decade where Republicans have been more hostile to personal liberty than Democrats.

      The only restriction on personal conduct Republicans want to impose AFAIK is on abortion, and they are doing that because they believe that society has a duty to prevent the killing of innocent humans.

      A few issues like drug legalization are unclear, with both Democrats and Republicans coming down on either side.

      On all other major issues, like anti-discrimination laws, gay marriage, affirmative action, hate speech, transgender rights, medical insurance, retirement, labor regulations, minimum wage, housing and zoning, etc., Democrats come down on the side of less personal liberty and Republicans come down on the side of more personal liberty.

      1. This is the argument National Socialists made on the gibbet in 1945-1948. “We,” they told the Americans, “are Christians, and your natural allies against these Bolshie atheist Jyoooz!” Then the bailiff pulled the lever and the trapdoors opened. This also happened to Donald Trump, albeit figuratively, after he imagined that superstitious girl-bullying nazis and masked klansmen are worthy allies. Outcomes suggest they will murder their own mothers in exchange for the opportunity to coerce someone.

        1. Insights into the thought processes of fascists from the horses mouth!

    4. Democrats give lip service to personal liberty while being openly hostile to economic liberty.

      So, ~2012-2020 was Democrats paying lip service to personal liberty?

      Operation Chokepoint? Biden’s Title IX ‘reform’? Biden’s Crime bill? Mandatory bathroom regulations? RFRA boycotts? CHAZ? Lock downs? Mask mandates?

      1. I was speaking in sweeping generalities, dude. Take a sedative.

        1. Generally speaking, Stalin wasn’t as bad as Hitler.

          ‘Generally speaking’ is how you paint the lesser evil as being just as bad.

          1. If someone had held a gun to my head and said “vote” I would have selected Trump. Instead I chose to remain unregistered.

      2. You communists and fascists think coercion is divisible? You got exactly what you deserve! The looters that copy LP planks survive the next election. The looters that don’t, get tossed face-first onto the cobblestones of having to work for a living. Call it evolution in action.

      3. Yes, remember when bathrooms were a “thing”? Trump brought libertarian thought down to its simplest level. Asked what bathroom should be used by, I don’t know, transsexuals (?), Trump answered, “I think they should use whatever bathroom they want.” All the other candidates were making it needlessly confusing.

        And that’s Trump’s thinking in a nutshell. He doesn’t get into heavy analysis of which side is pro freedom, he just takes a simple take, and 90% of the time he’s right.

    5. Idiots believe freedom can be sliced up without dying. These rejects just helped a communist party tool defeat Trump by threatening to force women at gunpoint to reproduce against their will (to mention just one example of totalitarianism). Engaging them is a waste of time, but demonstrating to parasites at the trough that the free ride is over thanks to Lindsey Graham, Narcz, Ku-Klux Ken and Army of God warriors for the babies frightening women voters–THAT will yield dividends. Let them sort it out among themselves by initiation of force.

  10. This is toosilly trying to refuse blame for Biden.

    1. Just be honest, and stop pretending.

  11. It’s almost like one might feel the need to vote strategically.

    1. Pretty clear that is what they do. What they say, on the otherhand, is bullshit.

  12. Reason, forever declining a little liberty, and instead settling for a crap load of Progressivism.

  13. Libertarians Have No Home in Either Dominant Political Party

    Reason staff still fails to understand the US political system. By design, we have a two party system, and in such a system almost everybody is going to be deeply unhappy with both parties. And it’s a good system, better than the alternatives that have been tried.

    1. The U.S. enjoyed (and enjoys) tremendous natural advantages like the buffer of two oceans. Let’s go another couple hundred years and then talk about how good the two-party system is.

      1. You expect them to drain the ocean?

        1. Nope… just understand that the U.S. rise to a global power isn’t because God dropped his divine finger on ‘Merica or that the founding fathers developed the best system of governance on the planet. America is a shining example on a hill of “it’s better to be lucky than good.”

    2. And it’s a good system, better than the alternatives that have been tried.

      I’m becoming less and less convinced. If you assume all great systems must fall, then it becomes a question of most liberty for most time. It’s better than the current alternatives, but better than all alternatives for all time? IDK. Especially if you start subtracting out things like the ante-bellum South (from both sides), Japanese internment, pre-WWII eugenic/anti-semitism, etc.

  14. “On the one hand, Joe Biden has a friendlier record on trade and immigration, and on the other, they avoided the burst of spending that inevitably comes with unified control of the federal government.” Libertarians are apparently winning bigly, as certain political types might say.

    Mass immigration into a social welfare state and no-tariff trade with communist regimes employing slave labor are not “libertarian” positions.

    Stop pretending that your particular brand of “libertarian socialism” represents libertarianism as a whole.

    1. unreason has no choice but to be liars like the rest of the media.

      Their Commie positions are garbage so they try to hide as “Libertarians”. We Libertarians call them out, so they attack any Libertarian.

      unreason has not done a single article about the clear democrat election fraud. They dont have to agree with the evidence of election fraud but they refuse to even discuss both sides of the topic. Libertarians would try to convince you of a position after presenting you with both sides of the issue.

  15. What I learned from the Reason comment section: People are pissed that a libertarian site has libertarian leanings. Gosh.

  16. My wife dislikes Libertarians very much. She see them as people who have little use for anyone problems but their own. They want their own liberty but don’t much care about the other persons liberty. They worry about their right to own guns, but not a woman’s right to control her body. They hate that rioters, but say little when police kill an unarmed black man. I could go on, but the point is this Libertarians are not really reaching out to include more people and I think there place in the system is limited by that fact.

    1. “scratches head”

    2. so many strawmen, so little time.

      Libertarians are the only people who DO care about the other person’s liberty.

      Libertarians DO hate it when cops kill someone unnecessarily.

      Libertarians DO care about a woman’s right to control her own body, and a man’s right to control his own body. The other parties don’t even trust you to decide what substances you can put in your own body.

      Some libertarians consider an unborn baby a separate person and worthy of legal protection, but that’s not in the platform and probably not a majority position in the LP.

    3. On one level, I understand because libertarians tend to be pedantic, annoying, and poor dinner company. On another, I really don’t think your wife understands small “l” libertarian thought. Some of us care deeply about other people’s problems; we just think “more government” is rarely the best answer. Libertarians have been critics of the police and the police state while the U.S. was swooning for anyone in a uniform post 9/11. There are pro-choice and pro-life libertarians with thoughtful and nuanced views. Many libertarians appreciate civil disobedience but very few countenance violence. I can understand if your wife thinks we’re just a bunch of ass hats, a conclusion one might reach in any gathering with the word “libertarian” in the title (or here on H&R). Perhaps your wife could think of us as idealists. We cling to this notion that we are the captains of our own lives and we have the right to muddle towards our dreams with a minimum of state interference and with maximum respect to others to do the same. To me, that’s a wildly idealist notion.

      1. If you have read his posts, he doesn’t understand libertarianism, so why should his wife?

        1. One of the things that hurts libertarian thought is libertarian thinkers. If Mod’s wife is honestly open to the possibility that holding libertarian ideas does not automatically make someone a raging asshole, why not take advantage of the moment by showing her (and him) that the core of the philosophy is a profound respect for human rights, not a profound indifference to human suffering.

          1. His posting history would indicate otherwise.

      2. I appreciate what you say and others on this thread have said. You recognize there is an image here that impedes libertarians. I am not a libertarian, I appreciate the views of libertarians, liberals and conservatives and use them as sources to forge my own views on issues. I see my self as an advocate of problem solving. I will look to non government means first but if those are not available I will look to government.

        Jo Jorgenson was the only Presidential candidate to visit Madison and I went to hear her speak. I like some things she said and thought her wrong on others.

        I did not vote for her because this election was a referendum on Trump and that was my focus.

        1. You recognize there is an image here that impedes libertarians.

          Yes, we do, and we also recognize that that image has been created by the mainstream media, not us.

        2. Quoth the cowardly lyin’.

      3. No libertarian wants to force women into involuntary labor in violation of the 13th Amendment. This tool uses the thin wedge of the Altrurian fallacy. Marxist-era looterature was full of “you do, of course, have civilized racial eugenics laws, do you not?” This then segues into the assertion that Comstockian totalitarian absolutism is an absolute necessity for admission into the Company of Civilized Totalitarian Theocratic Kleptocracies. See “A Traveler from Altruria”, et seq. during the Panic of 1893 when the economy collapsed under the first Communist Manifesto income tax.

    4. Let me try…

      Libertarians do not see government force as the solution to all of our problems. Because of this many people believe we don’t want there to be any solutions to any problems.

      To paraphrase Bastiat, because we don’t want government to be the provider of health care, our critics say we want no health care at all. It’s as if we’d be accused of not wanting people to eat because we don’t want government running all the farms.

      Or as I hear from my father, we believe in this mystical market that provides stuff while people get rich. Ok…. what we don’t believe in is that people become angels when they become part of the organization with the monopoly on initiating violence. No, we don’t trust them.

      We don’t propose specific solutions imposed by force. That is what is seen, and that is why people say we don’t want there to be any solutions. We don’t say “Here’s my solution and I want to give it to you good and hard!” No. We say, “Let’s let millions of people cooperate and find the best idea through the market. What will that idea be? I dunno. They’re smarter than me, and definitely smarter than anyone who can win an elected office. Let them figure it out.” That doesn’t mean no solutions.

      1. Lemme get this straight: You, Sarcasmic, would heartlessly privatize all supermarkets and grocery stores and simply LET people and little children die of starvation in the streets because of some abstract theory about not sending men with guns to kill a few miscreants to set an example for the survivors?
        YOU MONSTER!

        1. *blushes and looks away*

    5. We do not need your wife’s support–though WE in 1972 wrote the plank that handed women the birth control rights enforcement known as Roe v Wade. The Libertarian party is a soft machine using a platform as a fulcrum and candidates as levers earning leveraged, law-changing spoiler votes to cause the murdering mystical and communist looters your wife admires to LOSE elections, and their greedy parties to REPEAL murdering laws so as to keep a hand in the till and snout in the trough. See “Why Voting Libertarian Works” or “Getting their Attention with Spoiler Votes” at Libertariantranslator. See also “Republicans Banned ALL Birth Control”

  17. “Hide the kids and liquor”? The LP is the only party that doesn’t want to tell you how your kids must be educated, vaccinated, indoctrinated and supervised. The LP is the only party that doesn’t want your liquor to be regulated and taxed. The LP wants you to be free to raise your kids your way, and wants to make booze cheaper.

    Vote LP for cheaper booze.

    1. And cheaper LSD, Mescalin, Psilocin, DMT, plant leaves generally. Anyone who remembers turning on the FM receiver to “Hello Haight Ashbury, this is Mother…” knows that every word the federal government says about any and all of these things is a deliberately fabricated lie. The Kleptocracy revives the Inquisition of the Dark Ages allied with the secret bands of robbers and murderers instituted by the Tariff War Between The States. Only an idiot would vote kleptocracy so long as freedom from coercion is an alternative.

  18. If Democrats keep “winning” elections, then we only have to worry about the one dominant party not liking us.

    Who is going to jump like Jeffords first, Collins or someone else?

  19. This is just dishonest, as I’ve come to expect Reason to be. Skip temperament and other unmeasurable qualities and instead make a laundry list of libertarian positions and then see which party is substantively closer. The Democrats would certainly get their share of votes, for things like police reform, ending the drug war, the fourth amendment, etc. Now balance that against their hostility to freedom of speech and their actions to promote censorship of big tech platforms. Do a complete list and you’ll see the Republican party is an order of magnitude stronger on libertarian issues than the Democrats.

    1. Depends. If you go with your feelings then the Dems are closer. If you use your head then the Repubs are closer.

      1. Well, you also have to look at how Repubs govern. Their actions do not match their rhetoric (except for trump, he was pretty open about not caring about spending, “pragmatic” on gun control, and being anti-undocumented.)

        1. posted too quick, trump was also open about his mercantilist thinking.

        2. Their actions do not match their rhetoric

          I think that defines anyone who can successfully run for political office.

          1. Fair point.

    2. There is one libertarian issue: the initiation of force. Republicans are inconsistent wannabee nazis just as Dems are inconsistent spineless socialists. The shared trait is the superstitious belief that freedom is divisible into “issues.” Totalitarians and objectivists labor under no such illusions. Hitler agreed with conservatives that “we” needed more superstitious meddling in private affairs, and agreed with socialists that “we” needed more coercion over trade and production. Christian Germany almost got what it deserved. Japan got that.

  20. Nor do they have a home within the Libertarian Party itself.

    Most people affiliated with the Libertarian Party are actually flaming liberals who are hostile to true libertarians.

    1. Name three, masked sockpuppet.

      1. and shouldn’t it be Juan el Galto?

      2. chemical jeffery, stolen valor, and dee?

      3. Jacob Sullum
        Robby Soave
        Eric Boehm

        Look! They’re all writers for Reason…Imagine that! 😉

    2. Flaming.

      No they are just “liberal curious”.

  21. Despite growing recognition that libertarians matter, Democrats and Republicans show little sign of extending an olive branch to people who oppose efforts to make government more abusive and intrusive. They know we exist, but they keep us in opposition.

    … have y’all tried to actually talk to folks who were once on the fence, but decided against being associated with you?

    ’cause I confess, I was once libertarian-curious. The Reason comment section quickly disabused me of that notion, and now I wouldn’t call myself a libertarian if you paid me, even as I’m sympathetic on many issues.

    Simply put, if libertarians want an “olive branch”, they should probable act like won’t just use it to warm up the wood-chipper.

    1. I was once libertarian-curious. The Reason comment section quickly disabused me of that notion, and now I wouldn’t call myself a libertarian if you paid me

      If for you it’s all about group identification and what you “call yourself,” then you were never any ways near being libertarian, anyway.

      If for you it’s about individual liberty regardless of what you name your team, you just may be a libertarian, whether you call yourself one or not.

    2. Your concern is noted. I’m sure you have also gone to the wapo comment section, the huffpo comment section and then were disabused of your lefty notions, right?

      And then read the comment section at breitbart and realized the right isn’t for you either?

      No? Then it’s not the comment section that drove you away.

    3. I was dem curious for a while, until they called me a racist homophobe bigot because I didn’t support the Citizens United decision.

  22. Strange article, since almost all Libertarian candidates in the last couple of decades have been longtime Republicans, and zero have been Dems. Libertarians have a home, the GOP.

    1. Note to foreign readers: By G.O.P. the writer means Government’s Own Prisons, as in Germany under National Socialist Positive Christianity.

      1. I thought many Republicans were for private prisons.

    2. Libertarians have a home, the GOP.

      And the GOP is going to reward that loyalty any decade now.

      1. Right after the Democrats make things better for AfricanAmericans in the cities they run.

  23. They all seem to be in the GOP though.

    Seems to me there must be something in the RNC water that allows for that.

  24. “Libertarians are just Republicans who like to smoke pot, and nothing you say can make me change my mind.”
    -My Bernie loving co-worker

    1. Well I am just one toke over the line.

  25. The Dems copied the 1972 Libertarian plank that became Roe v Wade. The Democrats also copied libertarian policy that copping a buzz is not a crime: “We will ensure no one is incarcerated solely for drug use”. God’s Own Prohibitionists spat on our 4 million spoiler votes and stood pat for girl-bullying, asset forfeiture and sending First Responders™ gunning for hippies, darkies and dogs. Your tears are delicious. Cry, moan and whine you cruel superstitious brutes. May the sewers of Rangoon back up in your breakfast cereal!

  26. This article, and the philosophy behind it, is teet bs.
    We had the best chance to bring the Republican party closer to its stated principles than any time in my lifetime. Sure, President Trump isn’t a perfect candidate for Libertarianism but I have news for you… YOU WILL NEVER GET ONE THAT’S ELECTABLE. He was however very open to libertarian ideas and implemented many of them. He has had the ear of Libertarians from Congress and our private citizenry. It’s a much better idea to reform a party that’s established than fight from ground up. For multiple reasons! One, if Libertarians keep running third party against “ok” Republicans you will elect Democrats. And there’s not a single Democrat in politics that has freedom as an agenda. NOT ONE.
    Two, Libertarians need to decide what they atta actually for. You can’t claim to be a libertarian just because you want decriminalized drug use but then advocate that the govt, and tax payers, take care of you. You cannot advocate for any government intervention in people’s lives other than to make regular and to defend individual natural rights. To do otherwise makes you NOT a libertarian in the slightest.
    So wake up and stop being inflexible, or we (citizens)
    will lose everything to tyrannical local, state AND federal governments.

    1. You and Hank should get together and form a new political movement. I have a great name for it. Call it the Republican Party. It will be a BIG HIT WITH THE VOTERS AND YOU WILL GET PEOPLE ELECTED.

      1. My apology I meant to refer to Ken, not Hank.

    2. One reasons why libertarians never make progress, the incessant judgments about who is libertarian and who is not.

  27. “How long a shadow do we throw over American politics?”

    Like a toothpick half buried in the sand, at high noon.

  28. I think one problem we have as Libertarians is we spend a whole lot of time worrying about who the president is, yet many of the more pressing problems arise at the state and local levels. Look at California’s potentially-very burdensome upcoming electric car mandate, the increasing illegalization of smoking, sometimes even in one’s own home (making me wonder where people are supposed to enjoy their legal pot), and the stifling burden of property taxes in many states. Just looking at that last issue, the push by conservatives to cut federal taxation has increased state and local taxes, especially property taxes. I would contend that this is a freedom issue because it interferes with the ability of people to own homes and live where they want. Some of this stuff got worse under Trump because it seemed as if some Democratic state politicians got even more aggressive to prove how much they were against Trump.

    So, to me, the places where we really need to make a difference is closer to home, and that’s where we probably can.

    1. “…Just looking at that last issue, the push by conservatives to cut federal taxation has increased state and local taxes, especially property taxes…”

      You REALLY need some cites for that claim, and I don’t see a one.

      1. https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2017/382

        This article from the Chicago Fed comparing taxation in the United States and Germany points out that property taxes account for 4 percent of total tax revenue in Germany and over 12 percent in the US. This occurs because federal taxes here are low and cities and states have to make up the difference.

  29. *picks nose*

    *examines booger*

    *names it JesseAz*

    *farts*

    THE END

    1. Well I am just one toke over the line.

    2. *wiping my ass*
      *examines TP*
      *names what’s on it sarcasmic*
      Fuck off and die.

      1. Tries to think of when Sevo said anything of any importance or relevance to anyone…

        z
        z
        z
        o
        o
        n
        k
        k

        1. Your problem is ‘trying to think’; not possible, shitstain on TP

          1. Not everyone’s laundry looks like yours.

            1. I’m guessing your mommy said that was clever, asshole with TDS.
              She lied.

  30. Nobody has a home in any of the large parties. They’re just marriages of convenience, methods of doing politics. They’re not meant to be anyone’s “home”, any more than one’s preferred gas station or diner is. The mechanics come and go, the menus change, none of them has everything any particular individual would want.

  31. I’m not looking for a ‘home’ – there will never be a libertarian candidate with a snow ball’s chance in hell of winning; not enough ‘free shit’.
    I’ll vote for any candidate who convinces me that s/he will do better at keeping the government off my back than the alternative at any level, and of any party. But the D’s have yet to offer a warm body who was superior to any R candidate in my experience, and few of either show enough difference to get my vote. Trump met that criteria by a landslide.
    As a CA voter, my vote is worth only symbolic value; Jo got my vote. If there had been the smallest chance it might have counted, Trump woulda’ got it.
    All of you TDS infected assholes will get to applaud how ‘civil’ slobbering Joe is when his version of the GND means you lose your gas range; I’ll be laughing.

    1. BTW, I really do not care about the personality of the candidate; I’m not looking for a mommy or a daddy as so many TDS-infected shitstains are. It’s a shame those assholes can’t grow up.
      As far as I’m concerned, the candidate could be the most obnoxious POS I could imagine; I don’t care.
      I’ll vote for any candidate who convinces me that s/he will do better at keeping the government off my back than the alternative at any level, and of any party even if that person is really personally obnoxious; matters not a whit to me, unlike what I find on the TP above.
      All you TDS-infected assholes hoping for some mommy or daddy would make the world a better place by fucking off and dying.

  32. First it’s guns. Then gas guzzling cars. Now it’s gas ranges. Now I can’t decide what to mount in the bed of my F350, a Ma Deuce or a Viking range. If it’s successful as the War on Drugs, they’ll be a guy selling appliances on every street corner.

    1. Why not mount BOTH?!? This is the way.

  33. Here is the thing, it is much easier to be in the opposition or out of power completely. The LP does have some power, but it is usually squandered. The party is an always ran and has very little showing down ticket. Libertarians need to ask if they are using the best approach, the best strategy? 50 years as a party and what has been accomplished? Some things have gotten better, some things have gotten far worse.
    And as for an olive branch it works both ways. Calling Republicans and or Democrats all authoritarians, who oppose personal liberty isn’t how you create common ground. Writing crazy screes like Sqrsly and Hank turns off people. It doesn’t influence it convinced people libertarians are assholes and as tribalist as they accuse both parties of being.
    The constant sophomoric true scotsman routine and the demand for intellectual purity isn’t how you get people to further your cause.
    Free trade is a great idea in a perfect world, but how do you confront belligerent nation states that stifle competition while demanding full access to your markets?
    Immigration: what is the exact libertarian position? The say open borders but when pressed they admit that there has to be some means to police who enters? So it isn’t free borders. Mainly it’s quibbling over how much control to have at the border.
    Foreign policy: yes the NAP is a good principle but the question is how you define aggression? And how do you confront hostile countries that threaten international commerce and navigation? You can’t have free trade without free navigation?
    Deficits and debt: the LP is right these are bad for the country, I am just not sure it has a reasonable solution to ending them.
    National Defense: like both the Democrats and the Republicans, I don’t think the LP has any better solution to our defense spending. It is the waste, not the equipment, training etc we need to cut. And most of that waste is created by congress as back door earmarks. List the waste. And no not saying the Congress purchased a couple extra F-35s and tanks, but actual waste, e.g. regulations that basically force the destruction of expendable goods, waste like the fact that we have more flag level officers, per capita, then at any point in our history (too many generals and admirals driving a desk, doing make work. Focus on the waste in research and development, where congress continues programs long past when they need to be ended, moving funding from actual requested research and development programs for personal pet projects. If we start focusing on these issues, cut these we could do a great deal to reduce spending without really impacting readiness. Oh and unnecessary SJW/EO training that costs money and takes away from primary training.

    1. Good post. You put thought into it, and I’ll be putting thought into reading it.

    2. You’re missing a right paren.

      1. that wasn’t being a dick, I just don’t want to assume where it goes

        1. You’re missing the point, shitstain.

          1. I’m also missing the time you said anything relevant. Years and years. Total blank. Zippo. Nada.

            1. I understand your reading level is under grade level for grade one; not surprising for an asshole incapable of seeing beyond his TDS infection.
              Fuck off and die.

            2. BTW, let me repeat as shitstain seems incapable of reading:
              I really do not care about the personality of the candidate; I’m not looking for a mommy or a daddy as so many TDS-infected shitstains are. It’s a shame those assholes can’t grow up.
              Hey, TDS-infected asshole! Try growing up.

    3. 1493’s examination of the economics of slavery is enlightening.

      1. Malaria and yellow fever’s impact on the Americas doesn’t get enough coverage.

        1. Do you have any more LDS Propoganda? What are they gonna claim next? The Berlin wall was knocked down with a bunch of Book of Mormons? Sully Sullenberger was able to land on the Hudson because a Mormon on the plane helped him? Did Joseph Smith and Brigham Young travel back in time to sign the declaration of independence and help win the revolutionary war?

          You never know what they’ll make up next to make themselves look good.

          Are you gonna lie about what I post some more? Is it because you now know I was right about Mormons in Germany? Or is it because you have some Mormon DNA in you and can’t help but lie?

          Hope you had a good Thanksgiving unless it was with your LDS family. Fuck your LDS family.

    4. Ooh Soldiermedic where have you been? What are you gonna be lying about today? Have any more Mormon propaganda to spread? Are you willing to admit you were wrong about Mormons being persecuted in Germany?

      Can you ask your family if they consider “the pearl of great price” scripture?(The LDS church does) Do they consider the Book of Abraham scripture? The Book of Abraham has been disproven. Most LDS scripture will most likely not be disproven(hard to disprove aT5 negative), but since the Book of Abraham is BS made up by Joseph Smith then wouldn’t it make sense that the rest of their scripture is BS made up by Smith?

      1. Fuck off and die.

    5. Free Trade:
      “how do you confront belligerent nation states that stifle competition while demanding full access to your markets?”
      Easy, you sell them whatever they want to buy and buy whatever they are willing to sell. There’s no such thing as belligerent commerce. If another nation is subsidizing its output great, you can enjoy cheap products. If they are tariffing your exports that’s a shame, but it hurts own domestic their buyers more than it hurts you. The purpose of economic activity isn’t to employ people, its to trade around useful products and services. You can’t legislate supply and demand away and neither can “belligerent” nations.

      Immigration: The exact libertarian position is that you should be able to come and go as you please with as few strings attached as is necessary. People are going to cross borders no matter what you do. All the border war does is lump the harmless immigrants and workers together with the drug gangs and the violent criminals.

      Foreign Policy: There’s a difference between playing Team America World Police and carrying water for murderous dictators. The US should not be doing either. I don’t think this difference is particularly difficult to spot. Paying Iran billions of dollars so that it can pretend to not make nuclear weapons is bad. So is blowing middle eastern peasants with drone strikes.

      Deficits and Debt: Of course it has a reasonable solution: Fuck you, cut spending. Complain that rhetoric like that is burning bridges all you like but at some point you have to admit that if you find yourself in a hole the first thing you need to do is stop digging.

      Defense Spending: Defense spending is large, but it’s not the main driver of fiscal instability in the country. That goes to social security and medicare (and, more recently, cash bailouts). Most of the “defense” spending is actually entitlements too. The US spends a lot of missiles and planes, but what it spends on that is almost a rounding error compared to what it spends on checks to old people. Complaining that the military industrial complex spends too much money is missing the elephant in the room.

      1. Military spending is 16 percent of the federal budget. Social Security is 23 percent. Medicare and Medicaid is 25 percent. Not exactly a “rounding error.”

        1. As I specified in my post, there’s a difference between buying missiles and planes and paying pensions and medical bills for vets, yet both are marked as “defense” spending. Out of the roughly 693 billion that the military spent last year 268 billion of that went to pay and benefits and 50 billion went to military health care. So of that 16 percent, 7.3% is salaries, pensions, and healthcare and a mere 8.7% is bombs, tanks, carriers, bases, and all the things you traditionally think of as “military spending”.

          So yes, 8.7% versus the combined 55% (23+25+7) is basically a rounding error. A big one, perhaps, but the problem with the budget will never be addressed by focusing on the former and ignoring the latter.

      2. You missed a few, now do 1A and 2A

        1. I don’t need to address those. I think all that needs to be said already has been:
          “Congress shall make no law…”
          “…shall not be infringed.”

  34. “the vaccines were me”

    Donald Trump

    1. “The TDS is me”
      Echospinner.
      Fuck off and die.

    2. And, all you TDS-infected assholes wishing for some mommy or daddy could make the world a much better place by fucking off and dying.

  35. Can you ask your own family if they do not forget “the pearl of notable price” scripture?(The LDS church does) Do they do not forget the Book of Abraham scripture? The Book of Abraham has been disproven. Most LDS scripture will most likely not be disproven(hard to disprove aT5 negative), but because the Book of Abraham is BS made up by means of Joseph Smith then wouldn’t it make sense that the relaxation in their scripture is BS made up by means of Smith?
    http://www.tracehype.com/

    1. They seem to have repurposed some of my comment. Well anything that brings awareness to the mormons being lying scum.

  36. The only way 3rd-Parties are going to work in the USA correctly is by State-District-Elector Voting. Which goodies for Republicans would put the the Republican ticked today at a 10-to-1 lead or somewhere around there (seems impossible to get his data online).

    Which would also be A-LOT fairer because the fact is the U.S. isn’t a [WE] mob (club membership) of people it’s a government for the defense of the *land* within it’s land borders. How much national defense representation do city people think they need for their 500 sq-ft mole hole?

    Perhaps a little fetched but no more fetched the the lefties idiocy in pretending popular vote should be all that matters in a LAND-BORDER based government body.

  37. What both parties agree on is that they should use their power to suppress voter choice with ballot access censorship. Ballot censorship is inherently fascistic authoritarianism. Both duopoly parties are such even when most of the their voters are not, yet the ballot is rigged to channel all voters to accept the convergent fascism of the duopoly.
    If the voters once again owned control of the ballot instead of the duopoly, peace might be possible.
    Good article, Reason.

    1. “If the voters once again owned control of the ballot” …Ya know, like Individual Freedom and Liberty (OWN THEMSELVES!) instead of a [WE] mob’s chosen popularity Prom-King Dictator our pretend-to-be democracy has given us?

  38. Google is by and by paying $27485 to $29658 consistently for taking a shot at the web from home. I have joined this action 2 months back and I have earned $31547 in my first month from this action. I can say my life is improved completely! Take a gander at it what I do….. Here is More information.

  39. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

    – Libertarians seeing the LP twitter account for the first time

  40. I don’t buy this. The Republican party is not perfect but it is far more inclined to support individual liberty than today’s Democratic party. I could cite example after example but it is so obvious that I would be wasting people’s time. Does this mean that the GOP is perfect? Of course not — not by a longshot. But in most elections, the truth is that someone from “Team Red” or “Team Blue” is guaranteed to win. Helping to elect Democrats by voting for third party candidates — and thereby effectively diminishing liberty in the U.S. — is utterly foolish. Libertarians would do better to become a stronger force within the Republican party and improve the quality of GOP candidates running for office.

  41. I don’t buy this. The Republican party is not perfect but it is far more inclined to support individual liberty than today’s Democratic party. I could cite example after example but it is so obvious that I would be wasting people’s time. Does this mean that the GOP is perfect? Of course not — not by a long shot. But in most elections, the truth is that someone from “Team Red” or “Team Blue” is guaranteed to win. Helping to elect Democrats by voting for third party candidates — and thereby effectively diminishing liberty in the U.S. — is utterly foolish. Libertarians would do better to become a stronger force within the Republican party and improve the quality of GOP candidates running for office.

    1. “it is so obvious that I would be wasting people’s time.

      Waste away. I can cite example after example of Republicans supporting government intrusions on individual liberty. The war on drugs. No-knock raids. Obsequious support of police and police unions. Disregard of the 4th amendment. Opposition to same-sex marriage. Support of censorship. Opposition to porn and sex work. Crony capitalism. Support of military adventurism. Restrictions on trade. Restrictions on immigration. Draconian sentencing. Voter suppression. A blind eye to prosecutorial misconduct. Big government spending. Zero credibility on debt or deficit reduction. Pro-religion. Pro-culture war.

      To the extent there were ever Goldwater Republicans in the GOP, they are gone now. I don’t see how into bed with theocrats and police-staters does anything for liberty.

      1. As with most everything in your post ‘projection’ is all you’re doing.

        But let’s start at the most obvious one.. There is NO SUCH thing as “Crony Capitalism”.

        Capitalism is generally understood as a FREE market without economical gov picking/taxing/regulating winners and losers so do tell how in the HECK gov-brides would be made in a government that has no control over the market???????????

        It has been and ALWAYS will be “Crony Socialism”… Popular stupidity runs wild in [WE] mobs.

      2. Moving on

        The war on drugs – With Biden re-elect? Joking or what?
        No-knock raids – Rand Paul [R] is working on it fixing it
        support of police and police unions – The very force-field of liberty
        Disregard of the 4th amendment. – Project but 10% credit GWB
        Opposition to same-sex marriage – Rand Paul [R] put it perfect
        Support of censorship. – 100% projection [D] wants it
        Opposition to porn and sex work. – I’ll give 100% credit on this one
        Support of military adventurism. – Or is it National Defense?
        Restrictions on trade. – Projection (as if reg wasn’t)
        Restrictions on immigration. – Liberty of foreign invasion?
        Draconian sentencing.
        Voter suppression.
        A blind eye to prosecutorial misconduct.
        Big government spending.
        Zero credibility on debt or deficit reduction.
        Pro-religion.
        Pro-culture war.

  42. Well true neither party is “libertarian” but which more closely matches:

    Taxes: R’s less/ D’s more (R’s more closely match)
    Regulation: R’s less/D’s more (R’s more closely match)
    Defense: R’s Peace(at least Trump)/D’s (and some R’s) War (advantage Trump)
    Budget: Both suck
    Civil Liberties: R’s yes/D’s not if there is a virus (R’s more closely match)
    Immigration: R’s , follow existing law/D’s open borders (D’s more closely match)

    So what gives? Its a landslide for the R side

    1. Except when was it a USA citizens ‘upgrade’ in Individual liberty to be invaded by foreign individuals?? Seems every fool likes to frame Individual Liberty from the NOT-an-American foreigners-perspective — Why is that?

      Property (National Borders) Tresspass: R’s , follow existing law/D’s open borders (D’s more closely match) …WHAT???????????????????????

      1. Of all the people who have occupied the land that makes up the US, why do only Europeans get to claim ownership?

        1. … Uh because they *EARNED IT* with the blood of a Revolutionary War resulting in a U.S. Constitution which delegated the power of invasion-control to the federal government.

          I dunno; why do the people of Mexico think they get to claim ownership of Mexico??? Doesn’t U.S. Citizens get to claim Mexico REALLY????? How dumb can we pretend to be?

          1. You mean they stole it with guns.

            1. And illegal invaders should have to *EARN IT* the same way!! Tell them to bring lots and lots of guns..

              Not with some pathetic excuse of identity *entitlement* (i.e. “My home is where-ever I decide to hang my hat..”) B.S.

              1. That would be fair if we were actually talking about illegal invaders and not people committing the misdemeanor of unlawful entry or overstaying a visa, or those committing the non-crime of being a refugee.

  43. Continuing:

    1A: R’s yes/D’s no if there is a virus
    2A; R’s yes/D’s no
    It just gets more lopsided

  44. Oh yes free trade. I guess I give that one slightly to D’s. They are not really for it. Trump tries to enforce trade equity in regards to Tariffs. I’m torn on that one.

    1. Put “free trade” in the domestic scope; it’s actually an easy answer.

    2. D’s don’t even let us trade freely within the US

  45. Libertarians don’t have a home in either party, but they should still visit.
    One day the majority of American voters will realize they don’t have a home in either house either.

  46. It’s this kind of whining that won’t move the needle one iota towards less government. Trump at least put in judicial nominees that lean our way. Need to elect more in local, house and senate races that at least lean in a Libertarian direction. The libertarian purity tests only guarantee failure to even get a voice at the table for such issues.

  47. I am a strongly Libertarian leaning Republican, but here are a couple of obvious reasons why I would never vote for Jorgensen:
    1-She wants the USA to be neutral, like Switzerland
    This shows a complete lack of understanding of history and world events. I we actually did this, the world events would quickly devolve to a point that we would be forced to intervene. Just like it did prior to WW2

    2-She supports zero government interference in abortion
    She simply refuses to recognize the scientifically provable fact that a pre born child is a living human being, entitled to protection under the law. 100% dependent, yes, just like mentally retarded people, many elderly, those with extreme brain injuries, etc.
    There are more issues but my point is that this woman or any with similar extreme views is going to be elected POTUS. And as long as Libertarians insist on supporting people with impractical positions, Libertarians will be relegated to “Spoiler” status.
    Government has to work in the real world. Her policies do not.

  48. I am a strongly Libertarian leaning Republican, but here are a couple of obvious reasons why I would never vote for Jorgensen:
    1-She wants the USA to be neutral, like Switzerland
    This shows a complete lack of understanding of history and world events. If we actually did this, world events would quickly devolve to a point that we would be forced to intervene. Just like it did prior to WW2

    2-She supports zero government interference in abortion
    She simply refuses to recognize the scientifically provable fact that a pre born child is a living human being, entitled to protection under the law. 100% dependent, yes, just like mentally retarded people, many elderly, those with extreme brain injuries, etc.
    There are more issues but my point is that this woman or any with similar extreme views is never going to be elected POTUS. And as long as Libertarians insist on supporting people with impractical positions, Libertarians will be relegated to “Spoiler” status.
    Government has to work in the real world. Her policies do not.

    1. The votes are over Steve.

      Done, finished, counted, recounted checked and rechecked. It is over and done with.

      There is no need to justify your vote.

      1. And yet Georgia beckons, with four years of a totally thwarted Biden/HARRIS administration. And queue more court vacancies for the next Republican to fill.

  49. A communist coup d’etat. Way to go LoLibertarians!

  50. Yes i am totally agreed with this article and i just want say that this article is very nice and very informative article.I will make sure to be reading your blog more. You made a good point but I can’t help but wonder, what about the other side? !!!!!!thanks

  51. The problem Libertarians have is no real “Superstar” who real can raise the banner. We should make the argument, our ideas matter, but should never wins. Our politics are made in the Cult of Personality, and that is what drives our politics. Doctor Jo literally pissed away any ground made in 2016.

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