Election 2020

A Trump Judicial Appointee's Blistering Opinion Is a Reality Check for Republicans Who Still Think Biden Stole the Election

"The Campaign cannot win this lawsuit," the 3rd Circuit says. "The Campaign's claims have no merit."


In a blistering opinion by a Donald Trump appointee, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit on Friday rejected the president's challenge to Pennsylvania's election results, saying his campaign had failed even to allege a cognizable constitutional claim. "Free, fair elections are the lifeblood of our democracy," writes Stephanos Bibas, whom Trump picked for the appeals court in 2017. "Charges of unfairness are serious. But calling an election unfair does not make it so. Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here."

Appealing another scathing decision by U.S. District Judge Matthew Brann, the Trump campaign asked the 3rd Circuit to override Brann's refusal to allow a second amended complaint. The appeals court says Brann did not abuse his discretion when he dismissed the case with prejudice, given the looming certification of Pennsylvania's vote (which happened last Tuesday), the campaign's "delays and repetitive litigation," and the likelihood that the proposed complaint would be "futile."

The Trump campaign argued that Pennsylvania's election procedures violated the 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection in two ways. First, Secretary of the Commonwealth Kathy Boockvar urged counties to let voters "cure" mistakes on their absentee ballots that otherwise would have been rejected. Some counties followed that suggestion, while others did not. Second, the campaign alleged that election officials in some counties kept poll watchers too far away from the vote counting to see what was happening.

The 3rd Circuit notes that neither of those practices violated state or federal law. Nor does the variation between counties amount to unconstitutional discrimination under the 14th Amendment, it says. "The Campaign tries to repackage these state-law claims as unconstitutional discrimination," Bibas writes. "Yet its allegations are vague and conclusory. It never alleges that anyone treated the Trump campaign or Trump votes worse than it treated the Biden campaign or Biden votes….A violation of the Equal Protection Clause requires more than variation from county to county. It requires unequal treatment of similarly situated parties."

The president and his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, have insisted for weeks that Joe Biden stole the election through systematic voting fraud. Giuliani began a November 17 hearing before Brann by claiming "widespread nationwide voter fraud." But he later conceded "this is not a fraud case," noting that the campaign's complaint "doesn't allege fraud."

Despite the campaign's failure to even claim illegal voting, the appeals court notes, "the Second Amended Complaint seeks breathtaking relief: barring the Commonwealth from certifying its results or else declaring the election results defective and ordering the Pennsylvania General Assembly, not the voters, to choose Pennsylvania's presidential electors. It cites no authority for this drastic remedy."

Bibas pulls no punches in describing the arguments that the campaign wanted to make. "The Campaign's claims have no merit," he writes. "The number of ballots it specifically challenges is far smaller than the roughly 81,000-vote margin of victory. And it never claims fraud or that any votes were cast by illegal voters. Plus, tossing out millions of mail-in ballots would be drastic and unprecedented, disenfranchising a huge swath of the electorate and upsetting all down-ballot races too. That remedy would be grossly disproportionate to the procedural challenges raised."

Although the campaign "suspects that many of the 1.5 million mail-in ballots in the challenged counties were improperly counted," the 3rd Circuit says, "it challenges no specific ballots," and "it never alleges that anyone except a lawful voter cast a vote." Of the seven counties that were named as defendants because they allowed voters to cure their absentee ballots, "four (including the three most populous) represented that they gave notice to only about 6,500 voters who sent in defective ballot packages. The Campaign never disputed these numbers or alleged its own. Even if 10,000 voters got notice and cured their defective ballots, and every single one then voted for Biden, that is less than an eighth of the margin of victory."

In short, the appeals court says, "The Campaign cannot win this lawsuit. It conceded that it is not alleging election fraud. It has already raised and lost most of these state-law issues, and it cannot relitigate them here. It cites no federal authority regulating poll watchers or notice and cure. It alleges no specific discrimination. And it does not contest that it lacks standing under the Elections and Electors Clauses. These claims cannot succeed."

A Morning Consult poll conducted from November 6 through November 9 found that 70 percent of Republicans thought the 2020 presidential election was not "free and fair." The results were similar in an Ipsos survey conducted a week later, which also found that 52 percent of Republicans believed Trump "rightfully won" the election.

To continue believing that, Trump supporters have to accept something like the following story. Democratic election officials in multiple battleground states conspired with the Biden campaign to deny Trump his rightful victory, assisted by Dominion Voting Systems, George Soros, the Clinton Foundation, and the Venezuelan, Cuban, and Chinese governments. That vast international conspiracy evidently also includes Bibas, appointed by Trump himself, plus the two other judges on the unanimous 3rd Circuit panel, D. Brooks Smith and Michael Chagares, both of whom were nominated by George W. Bush.

For no obvious reason, that scheme has been aided and abetted by Brann, described by Sen. Pat Toomey (R–Pa.) as "a longtime conservative Republican whom I know to be a fair and unbiased jurist"; all of the other judges who have been unimpressed by the Trump campaign's legal claims; Republican election officials across the country; Republican members of Congress; and heretofore Trump-friendly news outlets such as the New York Post and Fox News. To believe this story, you would also have to accept that Giuliani, who says the conspiracy is "easily provable," has solid evidence to back up his wild claims but for some reason has not managed to produce it in court.

The alternative to buying all of that is to conclude that Trump has refused to admit defeat, either for personal or political reasons, and has resorted to increasingly baroque explanations for Biden's soon-to-be-official victory. That hypothesis is consistent with everything we know about Trump from his decades in public life, including his disdain for the truth, his enormous yet fragile ego, and his allergy to accepting responsibility. It is also consistent with the yawning gap between Trump's public assertions and the claims his campaign has made in its lawsuits, which the 3rd Circuit's decision highlights once again.

NEXT: Bourgeois Libertarianism Could Save America

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  1. At this point I think we'd have to include Trump's own lawyers in the conspiracy, since they seem to be doing a very poor job of uncovering this conspiracy. Is Giuliani secretly working for George Soros and Dominion? Is that why he's sandbagging his own team's efforts?

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    2. Would explain a lot.

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    3. Brilliant and it explains so much.

      1. Well this thread turned rather quickly into a three prog circle jerk. Where's Tony and Sqrlsy? Quietly waiting for the soggy biscuit?

        1. Or possibly 1 prog. They tend to defend each other in quick succession.

          1. There was a lag of 1 hour and 39 minutes between chemjeff's comment and mine. And then another 2 hours+ before Moderation4ever commented.

            But, you never let facts slow you down.

            1. *sshpt*ot, this is Kettle, Black.*sshpt*

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            2. I believe you when you say you are a different prog douchebag from the other prog douchebags.

              See? I can be nice to you.

      2. Brilliant? Haha.

        You’re easily impressed. Nothing wrong with that, champ.

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    4. Poor unreason.

      If your gonna cover the election news, cover the election events.

      This habit you have of only covering what some judges say that is “bad” for Trump to expedite a SCOTUS hearing is so obvious.

      The SCOTUS is deciding trump vs biden not middle courts that would bog the process down. Same thing happened in bush vs gore. The 11th circuit didnt decide that election issue either.

      Mailin ballots are fraudulent on their face as you cannot reasonably verify the legally registered voter did the voting. Millions of them should be tossed.

      Election officials and governors cannot change election laws without state legislature approval as per the constitution. Millions of mailin ballots should be tossed.

      People cannot vote after election day. Hundreds of thousands of mailin ballots need to be tossed.

      1. “The SCOTUS is deciding trump vs biden not middle courts”

        There are no Supreme Court cases right now related to this election, so you are essentially saying you want Reason to report on your fantasies.

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      2. “Mailin ballots are fraudulent on their face”

        You wrote that with a straight face, even though mail-in ballots have been around for decades, even though some states have been using mail-in ballots exclusively for many elections, even though Trump himself voted by mail.

        1. Absentee ballots have been around for decades. They are requested, not shotgunned out to everyone. There’s a big difference.

      3. “Election officials and governors cannot change election laws without state legislature approval as per the constitution.”

        If you are referring to the lawsuit challenging Article 77, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled that the challenge was not made in a timely manner, and it cannot be appealed to the United States Supreme Court.

        1. I expect those yahoos to visit the Supreme Court, perhaps by knocking on Alito’s door. Their dumbass client, Parnell, went on television today and guaranteed his “lawyers“ (only one lawyer has been willing to appear of record for that slack-jawed loser) would bother the Supreme Court with this gibberish.

        2. County to county variation? So it's ok if we count urban county ballots but throw rural county ballots in the trash? Sounds fair to me!!

      4. So you would disenfranchise all of the service members and others that are away from their homes?
        As for verification, there is the signature on the voter registration, the ballot request and the mailed in ballot - all which point to a single address. Generally speaking that is enough.
        As for the Constution, all it says is the states pick candidates to the electorial college. The rest of what you allege the constitution says is not correct and utter BS.
        "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."
        That's it.
        I was told that pre Civil War, many state legislatures did the voting.

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    7. I assert that Trump's own behavior for the last 4 - 5 years proves he is a Democrat operative and thoroughly anti-Trump.

  2. A Morning Consult poll conducted from November 6 through November 9 found that 70 percent of Republicans thought the 2020 presidential election was not "free and fair." The results were similar in a Ipsos survey conducted a week later, which also found that 52 percent of Republicans believed Trump "rightfully won" the election.

    See this, media? There are millions of Trump voters who think the election was stolen. That means it's your job to take seriously these claims. Don't talk down to people by calling these claims "unsubstantiated" or "baseless". In the minds of millions of Trump voters, the claims of widespread election fraud are true, and that makes the claims valid and worth investigating! You have to find the evidence that validates the claims of the Trump voters! It can't be that the Trump voters are incorrect. No no. It just means that the media has failed in its job to validate the feelings of Trump voters.

    1. Where's Biden's "largest [anti] voter fraud team in history" when you need them?

      1. As I've said before, if the Democrats were smart they would be looking for fraud and error in states that Trump won. If the Trump defense team actually manages to come up with a win, or get a case to the Supreme Court, the Democrats could counter with their own examples of problems in red states.

        1. "if the Democrats were smart they would be looking for fraud and error in states that Trump won. "

          No! Anything but that!!!!! - says no Republican

          Democrats aren't checking for fraud in red states because they're dumb. Though I can't speak for the ones who troll this site.

          1. "Democrats aren’t checking for fraud in red states because they’re dumb."

            That is the same as what I said.

            1. I misspoke, Dems aren't checking because they can't have anyone check. Its all on them. They know Trump won and they had to come up with the votes in the middle of the night.

          2. "Democrats aren’t checking for fraud in red states because they’re dumb. I cannot avow that the Democrats on this site are dumb."

            That's what you just said. Logic isn't your strong suit, is it?

        2. But that would be a win for the Republicans, because it would destroy any basis they had for objecting to restoring/augmenting ballot security. And getting rid of ballot security has been a priority for the Democratic party for many years.

          1. a) That would depend on the nature of the Republican fraud that is discovered.
            b) It was Georgia Republicans that insisted on buying Dominion systems.

            1. Georgia Republican officials were either dupes or in on the fraud.

              Either way, hundreds of thousands of absentee ballots are getting tossed on Georgia. Most Georgians voted in person either early or on election day.

              Trump won Georgia.

              1. You may want to prepare your “GEORGIANS FOR TRUMP 2024!!!” ASCII art, just in case.

                1. Well, enough people voted in GA after submitting change of address forms and getting ballots in other states to flip GA to Trump.

              2. Trump won Georgia?? Do you get that from that reliable source, Otto Yourazz?

          2. Good point. Here's lifelong Democrat Mitch McConnell standing in the way of voting security:


          3. Democrats. They doing "getting rid of ballot security" wrong.

            February 14, 2018 - Congressional Democrats introduced legislation on Wednesday that would provide more than $1 billion to boost cyber security of U.S. voting systems, and Vice President Mike Pence defended the administration’s efforts to protect polls from hackers.

            The new bill is the most comprehensive to date and is aimed at bolstering protection for the midterms and subsequent elections. It has no Republican co-sponsors in the House, which the Republican party controls, and is therefore unlikely to succeed.

            1. House passes sweeping Democrat-backed election security bill

              "Republicans blasted the bill, arguing Democrats politicized legislation they feel could have passed the chamber without certain polarizing provisions. "

              Blah blah, blah, objections to paper ballots by a Republican getting money from voting machine companies. Not impressed.

              "Davis is the ranking Republican of the House Administration Committee, which approved the bill along party lines late last week. During the committee markup, Davis repeatedly tried to introduce amendments, with the Democratic majority voting down all of them."

              So, it got no Republican support, because they weren't permitted any input into what was in the bill. Pretty typical, actually.

              To be honest, I didn't find any poison pills in the bill, which surprises me. I suspect it was derailed mostly by voting machine money, not partisan concerns.

    2. Now do russiagate.

      1. There is more truth in Russiagate than there is in Trump's conspiracy nonsense.

        1. “Truth”. So the Russians did change votes and Trump is actually covered in Putin’s pocket lint. Lol.

          Friendly advice - don’t be laughing at the people on the other side when you’re the same as them.

          1. No, I said that there is more truth, not that it was all true.

            For starters, it is actually true that Don Jr. met with the Russians on the premise of finding dirt on Hillary. That actually happened. There is nothing similar when it comes to these insane election conspiracies.

            1. BFD.

              1. Still more documented evidence of "Russian collusion" then, than there is now of "stolen election".

                1. No. There wasn't you ignorant fuck. The most Russian cousin that happened was the Steele dossier.

                2. Tubby, you are one stupid fucktard. Almost Squirrely stupid.

              2. Right, that is the standard Trumpian response.
                Trumps a documented liar ... BFD he is just miss-understood, alternative facts
                Trump cheated on taxes or bank loan (You can't claim something is worth 25 million on taxes and then use it to secure 50 million in loans - one of those numbers is fraudulent) BFD he has others do his taxes (but he signs them....)
                Trump cheated on his wife. BFD lots of people cheat on their wife.. multiple times.
                Trump dodged the draft BFD lots of people dodged in the 60s
                Trump declared bankruptcy 6 times BFD, he is genius businessman
                I could go on and on.
                Trump supporters see nothing but a messiah.

            2. Two thirds of democrats think Russia hacked voting machines and changed votes. Did the Russians change votes or did they not?

              And let’s not even get into the unethical behavior of the Obama administration investigating based on a document that they new to be false, including swearing under oath to a judge regarding facts in that document that they new to be false.

              Clean up your own fucking house before demanding that the opposition clean theirs.

              1. It's not chemjeff's house. He has said many times he is a libertarian.

                1. He has stated he is a proud globalist. He isnt a libertarian you lefty shit.

                  1. You are not a reliable source for recountings of past conversations.

                  2. Well in this instance Jesse is right, I did say I am a proud globalist, and I am. Libertarianism IS globalist, because liberty is universal and transcends national borders.

                    But Jesse's comprehension of the term "globalist" derives from its use as a slur on right-wing media. That's all.

                    1. You’re a globalist progressive. You’re also pro globalist pedophile. As you have admitted on this very website.

              2. I'm not aware of that poll. If that is the case, then it's pretty stupid. Of course Team Blue is capable of tribalistic groupthink nonsense. One doesn't even need to look specifically at 2016, it's been that way for a while now. Just go back to 2004 when their claims about DIEBOLD!!!! "stealing" the election in Ohio sound a lot like DOMINION!!!!! "stealing" the election in Georgia.

                BOTH team red and team blue have the capacity of acting like spoiled children when they lose, and we are now seeing team red taking the lead in doing so.

                1. You are team blue you proud globalist.

                2. You are correct, Jeff, it’s team red’s turn to let the crazies run. Just like blue, wild impossible claims with zero basis (I.e. no way they Russians could change votes).

                  The last two national elections have demonstrated how the zealot fringe has come to dominate influence in the parties. They aren’t in control (yet) but it’s moving that way.

                  And it’s real important that Red wins one of the Georgia runoffs. I fear they’re gonna screw around and blow it out of fealty to Trump.

                  1. GA senator perdue beat jon ossoff by 80,000 votes.

                    Trump won the election and will win trump vs biden and/or the 12th amendment House vote.

                    1. Can you link to this Trump v Biden case you keep talking about?

              3. Let's see a reference for that first claim you made because I think it is fertilizer. Democrats recognize Russian interference as did the Mueller report and the Senate's report. No Democrat that I know of said that votes were changed.

            3. And Hillary paid a British ex pat to pay Russian contacts for dirt on trump you ignorant fuck.

              There are far more statistical anomalies in this election than there was of election collusion with trump.

              Precedent after precedent on historical trends were violated in this election. Historically low voter ballot rejections on mail in after historialy high rejection during the primaries. 100k+ batches of 95% buden votes. Vote percentages in 4 cities so far out of statistical commonality with every other urban center. Stopped votes.

              Youre just a globalist happy a globalist won.

              1. Statistical anomalies, oh like your "Brenfords Law"? JesseAz tried to repeat the right-wing talking point about Benford's Law, and f'd it up.

              2. And Hillary paid a British ex pat to pay Russian contacts for dirt on trump you ignorant fuck.

                That's a lie and you know it. The Hillary campaign paid Fusion GPS, an American firm, for oppo research it was hired to perform by the Washington Free Beacon.

            4. He met with A Russian not THE Russians.

              1. Still more evidence of "Russian collusion" than there is of "stolen election".

                1. They both have the same problem.

                  """ the 3rd Circuit says, "it challenges no specific ballots," and "it never alleges that anyone except a lawful voter cast a vote.""

                  Nor can the Russian influence claim point to anyone who was influenced.

                2. There's a video from Georgia you really need to watch. Also, no sworn affidavits reporting Russian collusion, but hundreds asserting voter fraud.

        2. So why haven't you leftists found any evidence then

          1. chemjeff: "There is more truth in Russiagate than there is in Trump’s conspiracy nonsense."
            Social Justice: "Aha! So you agree with [ever changing number depending on which comment above one quotes] percent of Democrats that believe Russia hacked voting machines and changed votes!"

            1. Now you white knight the other shitty leftists.

    3. Shit, Jeff, they did it when 60-some percent of Democrats though that Russia CHANGED VOTES. I’m not a partisan here, but fair is fair.

      If you’re calling yourself non-partisan you need to try a little harder.

      1. What Democrat ever said Russian changed votes?

          1. I read the article and I agree that Reid's choice of words suggest direct manipulation and that is unfortunate. I cannot say that is what he meant.

            Many people feel that their was Russian influence in the election. That the influence was to cause people to vote for one candidate, not vote for another, or to not vote at all. You should note the article you cited acknowledges that influence.

            Influence is a far cry from what the President and his legal team are suggesting. In some cases they suggest votes are being changed.

            1. ""That the influence was to cause people to vote for one candidate, not vote for another, or to not vote at all.""

              Can you point to anyone who claimed to be influenced?

              1. "Can you point to anyone who claimed to be influenced?"

                I can point you to lots of people that think tRump is the best President ever.

                The problem is I can point to slightly more people that think he was the worst ever - including against Bush... and Bush was so bad, they gave Obama the Peace Prize even before he took office.
                Biden they will give the Nobel prize in Medicine just because he will follow the science vs. whatever tRump calls what he did.

                1. You mean like Trump fast tracking the KungFlu vaccine? Which we now have in record time.

    4. And 30% of democrats thinks something fraudukent happened. How did you leave that out?

      1. Link to the original source of that 30% number. Not some right-wing site's claims of what the poll said, but the original poll numbers from the original pollster.

        1. What's the point? You'll just ignore that that is exactly what Rasmussen tweeted. (As was linked in the article I provided the last time you asked about this. An article that was the first link that popped up in my DuckDuckGo search, btw.)

          I will say that it looks like the 30% is both VL and SL responses.

    5. With half the country thinking the election was stolen, the media should be reporting on what evidence there is instead of mindlessly claiming there is none. The issue IS the doubts, not the leftwing agenda of "baseless claims. " If this is not taken seriously by the media, Biden's term will be tainted by it and the issue of election integrity will never be settled. The very fact of the media mocking the doubts of ten of millions of people is itself driving the suspicions of the conspiracy theorists. Grasp the nettle and prove to us once and for all we have nothing to fear, or prepare for the crumbling of the greatest experiment in self-government of all time.

      1. The burden of proving a claim that the election was stolen rests upon those who make such a claim. Not upon the news media, who accurately report that those claimants lack evidence.

        That is, unless one subscribes to the theory of the Big Lie that generates belief from constant repetition.

        1. Again, this is not a private citizen accused of a crime. Voting has rules. Multiple rules were broken, which may, by law, invalidate those votes. Burden is on rule-breakers.

  3. If voter fraud is just a conspiracy theory why did Biden say on Oct 24 that he had assembled the largest [anti] voter fraud team in history? Why was counting stopped in the middle of the night in six states an event unprecedented in election history? Why is there video of Trump losing votes on live tv? How did a guy who can't put two sentences together, has a running mate rejected by the Dems in the primary and didn't answer any questions or campaign for eight months get 10 million more votes than Obama? The thing stinks to high heaven.

    1. The power of OMB.

    2. "If voter fraud is just a conspiracy theory why did Biden say on Oct 24 that he had assembled the largest [anti] voter fraud team in history"

      It is significant that no one in the news talked about this. There are only two explanations that I can see: he misspoke because he is mentally unfit or he accidentally told the truth because he is mentally unfit AND his campaign was one of the most corrupt in US history.

      The man is a train wreck personified

      1. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he meant to say "anti voter fraud". So the Dem candidate a week before the election had apparently assembled a huge anti fraud team but if you have brung up fraud since Nov 4 you're a crazy conspiracy theorist.

        1. Ranting that there was coordinated fraud in all the swing states, and therefore the election must be given to Trump because he truly won is way beyond "bringing up fraud".

          1. How is it ranting when Biden himself felt the need to assemble the largest anti voter fraud team in history?

            1. Because WK said it was, duh!

          2. "Ranting"
            Right, because it is totally not fraudulent that -
            A) Only in the 4 swing state metros did Biden outperform Obama
            B) only in the 4 swing state metros did Trumps trend of gaining minority voters completely reverse
            C) only in the 4 swing state metros did counting stop in the middle of the night and poll watchers were licked out and told counting would continue tomorrow only for counting to subsequently continue and suddenly Biden lead
            And D) only in the 4 swing state metros did you see massive 6 digit 19:1 absentee ballot dumps in favor of Biden that put him over the top.

            In no other metro area in the US did the above occur. Only in the 4 needed swing states. The only people who can look at the above and say it is likely massive fraud did not occur are fools, liars, and children under the age of 10. Which are you?

            1. But none of that happened. All of your claims have been debunked. You're repeating lies.

              1. Really? In what other states did Biden get 6 figure 19:1 absentee ballot dumps?

      2. 9. Statistical anomalies. In Georgia, Biden overtook Trump with 89 percent of the votes counted. For the next 53 batches of votes counted, Biden led Trump by the same exact 50.05 to 49.95 percent margin in every single batch.


        1. I realize this thread is probably dead, but just in case...
          In Georgia, Biden overtook Trump with 89 percent of the votes counted. For the next 53 batches of votes counted, Biden led Trump by the same exact 50.05 to 49.95 percent margin in every single batch.

          Simply put, this claim is false and stems from bad data analysis. I'll explain.

          The source of the claim, or at least the site that popularized it, is Gateway Pundit. You can see a video describing the claim here:

          There are also screen shots of their spreadsheets. I was able to reproduce their spreadsheets exactly. Here is what they did (I will use the variable names they did in the spreadsheet).

          They calculated votes_for_dem and votes_for_rep by multiplying votes by vote_share_dem and vote_share_rep, respectively.

          They did this for each update.

          They calculated incremental_vote_for_dem and incremental_vote_for_rep by subtracting the current votes_for_dem and votes_for_rep from the numbers they calculated for the previous entry.

          They calculated incremental_vote_pct_dem and incremental_vote_pct_rep by dividing incremental_vote_for_dem and incremental_vote_for_rep by the sum of incremental_vote_for_dem and incremental_vote_for_rep, respectively.

          In math, this is the formulate for calculating the percentages they attribute to Biden and Trump from each batch of votes (the numbers 1 and 2 refer to two adjacent updates). I will give the formula for Biden.

          (votes2*vote_share_dem2 - votes1*vote_share_dem1)/(votes2*vote_share_dem2 - votes1*vote_share_dem1 + votes2*vote_share_rep2 - votes1*vote_share_rep1)

          Now here is the fundamental problem with their analysis: THEY ONLY USE vote_share_dem and vote_share_rep REPORTED TO THREE DIGITS, AND THE ACTUAL CHANGE IN votes IS EXTREMELY SMALL, SO THEY DO NOT SEE THE ACTUAL CHANGE IN vote_share_dem AND vote_share_rep.

          Look at their spreadsheet again. vote_share_dem and vote_share_rep do not change (when reported to three significant digits) between any of their updates.

          This means that, in the formula I gave above, vote_share_dem1 is equal to vote_share_dem2, and similarly for vote_share_rep1 and vote_share_rep2.

          Work through the math for yourself when this is true, and you will see that the incremental_vote_pct_dem reduces to the following formula:

          vote_share_dem/(vote_share_dem + vote_share_rep)

          Then substitute the actual numbers (again, use Georgia as example)

          0.494/(0.494+0.493) = 0.50050658

          Which, when converted to percent and reported to three decimal places, is 50.051.

          You can do the same thing for Trump and reproduce their numbers.


          The fundamental claim is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter if the actual split of votes in each batch were 90% Trump and 10% Biden. The calculations they are doing GUARANTEE that they will think the split in that batch was 50.051% Biden and 49.949% Trump because they are doing bad math on data never meant to be used for this purpose.

          There are other warning signs of this:

          1) They report fractional values for vote_for_dem and vote_for_rep when these numbers MUST be integers. Again, this is a consequence of not using vote shares reported to sufficiently high accuracy.

          2) They calculate incremental vote percentages that are in excess of 100% for Joe Biden and negative for Donald Trump in one of their entries. This is mathematically impossible in real life, and it happens because (again) they are deriving these values by relying on data reported with insufficient accuracy.

          And why does the data not have sufficient accuracy? Because it was scraped from the NYT website and was only mean for graphical display purposes in their election tracking graphics. It is NOT official vote counts and was never intended for the type of detailed analysis Gateway Pundit (or whoever they are relying on) was trying to do.

          Don't take my word for it. You can reproduce all of these results yourself with Excel and/or a pencil, paper, and some basic algebra.

          Please stop spreading this claim. It is fundamentally wrong.

          1. Explaining math to people with closed minds is pointless...just nod your head when they rant that the earth is flat and move on...

        2. Prove that Trump's 15.2% lead in Pennsylvania at 3am, a state he won by just 0.72% in 2016, is in any way indicative of reality. PA is a Democratic-leaning state (by 7% of registered voters) that has voted in favor of the Democratic candidate in 6 of the past 7 presidential elections.

          So please provide proof how Trump increased his PA vote from 0.72% in 2016 to 15.2% in 2020. Extra credit for explaining how he did so despite his poor handling of coronavirus and the 2020 recession.

    3. If voter fraud is more than a made up fantasy, why don’t they allege it in court and produce evidence?

      Could it be that false statements made to the court result in punishment?

      1. Powell has filed fraud allegations in Georgia and Michigan.

        1. They’re gonna fuck around and blow the senate, and we’re gonna get progressive city jammed up our ass.

          Enjoy your new electric grid, at least when it’s functioning.

          1. Another reason to rise up and get rid of the progressives.

            1. Bring it, punk.

          2. It will be stolen just like the presidency.

        2. Have you read her submission regarding Georgia?

          Here it is, in case you haven't seen it:


          I confess I didn't read the entire thing (it is over 100 pages) but the gist of it that I got from it is basically:

          1. She claims that the Dominion software is capable of being hacked to change the results, but she doesn't provide any evidence that the software WAS hacked.
          2. She claims that the Governor and Secretary of State created electoral regulations that violated the Legislature's standards for counting ballots, but (a) those regulations were the result of a lawsuit from earlier in the year, and (b) there was a lot of time to challenge those regulations before the election, it may be too late to challenge them now.
          3. She claims, using statistics, that there are a number of irregularities in the absentee ballots, the number of which exceeds the margin of victory, but she doesn't actually provide documented evidence that there WERE ballots improperly cast, only some statistics on the matter.

          So I don't know, it seems like a thin reed to me.

          And then there is the whole alleged Hugo Chavez connection. Which is hilarious frankly. That the Dominion voting software was once used by Chavez in one of his sham elections somehow proves that the election in Georgia was fraudulent? LOL

          1. You didnt read the entire lefty website site you linked to?

            Now defend this.


            1. "Lefty website"? That is Sidney Powell's own website, you moron.

              1. Haha! That was great...well done!

        3. Lefties dont understand evidence which is why the fail every time trying to get rid of trump.

          1. Evidence?? I don´t think that word means what you think it means.

        4. But why has she asked the court to lock down her "evidence" so that no one can see it? And why is so much of it redacted? And where are the deposition transcripts where opposing counsel cross-examined her "witnesses"?

        5. The district court there observed that Ms. Powell had offered precious little proof to support her application for a temporary restraining order.

      2. Hey dummy... they have alleged it in court with 3000 affidavits. They are asking for audits but the people in charge, largely democrats, are refusing to do actual audits.

        1. Describe *exactly* what an "actual audit" would be.

          1. Verify ballots are legal ballots that are not to be rejected.

            1. A little more detail, please. Verify them how?

        2. Affidavits? Yeah, let's see how the people that wrote those fictitious affidavits bear up under cross-examination in real court, not fantasy court.

    4. Can answer this one: "How did a guy who can’t put two sentences together, has a running mate rejected by the Dems in the primary and didn’t answer any questions or campaign for eight months get 10 million more votes than Obama?"

      Because he was running against a contemptible, incompetent opponent. All those people were voting *against* Trump, not *for* Biden.

      1. No, no, no, your senile hero got a mandate from the masses. He will wield supreme executive power to bring to the rest of us a wonderful progressive future, just like California.

        The bad orange man's tart handing out a sword in an aquatic ceremony will not hold up in court.

        1. Jo Jorgensen is a "senile hero"? That's who I voted for.

          1. There is no evidence of you voting for JoJo, but there is lots of evidence of your unrelenting opposition to Trump.

            You have revealed your preferences.

            1. You make lots of wild accusations. That is one of the wildest yet.

              1. Again, this is not a private citizen accused of a crime. Voting has rules. Multiple rules were broken, which may, by law, invalidate those votes. Burden is on rule-breakers.

      2. And you believe record turnout in 4 cities over this claim while it didn't happen in other bluer urban centers.

        1. Has it occurred to you that the Democrats may have made a big effort to get out the vote in swing states?

          1. Haha. NC, OH are swing states and they stopped the democrats from stealing a win. They still had democrat election fraud, those state just made is harder for democrats to get away with.

            1. Specifically, what did those states do to make it harder for Democrat fraudsters?

              1. If I had to guess, they didn’t just mail out ballots to every breathing (and some non-breathing) adult in the state without even a modicum of control for chain of custody?

                1. Neither did any of the swing states. Duh.

          2. Evidence bitch. Provide it. Show exactly what measures were taken only in those 4 metro areas that were different enough from all their other efforts which would result in the hilariously massive difference in voting patterns. Where are the receipts?

            1. Moving the goalposts. First it was 4 cities. Now suddenly it's metro areas. Two different things.

              1. You addlepated fuckwit of a moron. There was no goalpost shifting. When someone says Chicago, they almost invariably mean the Ciicago metro area. The same for every other major city in the US. Case in point, Atlanta, specifically Fulton county, refers to over 8 cities, all within the Atlanta metro area.

              2. Not to mention, you piss poor excuse for a tossed out afterbirth, you already replied to my post up thread an hour before you made this post where I explicitly referred to them as metro areas.

        2. Which 4 cities?

      3. “How did a guy who can’t put two sentences together, has a running mate rejected by the Dems in the primary and didn’t answer any questions or campaign for eight months get 10 million more votes than Obama?” The fix was in and he knew it. He was idiotically and fuzzy-mindedly telling the truth about the greatest voter fraud organization ever. The statistical impossibility of the anomalous vote dumps in the wee hours of Nov 4 raise serious questions. https://votepatternanalysis.substack.com/p/voting-anomalies-2020

    5. It is just a conspiracy. That's why none of the democrats or leftists here want even a statistical audit of the elections. If they did they would find issues like the Voter Integrity Project did. But they don't want anybody looking. Just ignore the thousands of affidavits, statistical anomalies, various election experts all questioning what happened. Just don't look.

      Jeffy, chipper, WK (I repeat), all would rather we don't look. Trust the media. Trust the state. Like true libertarians.

      1. Describe exactly what you want done in this audit. No hand waving.

        1. If you are not trusted. You have to prove you are trustworthy.

          If you want the results of elections to be trusted, they you must prove it is hard to cheat, not work to make it easy to cheat.

      2. The media and democrats were lying cheating scumbags before election day and they still are.

        They got caught with this massive election fraud when trump would concede.

        1. And, apparently, in your home state it’s now the media, Democrats, and some of the Republicans.

      3. Look. There is a difference between healthy skepticism, and giving credence to every half-baked nutty fringey conspiracy theory. I am all in favor of healthy skepticism. I am not at all in favor of indulging every nutjob with a "theory". And there are a lot of nutjobs on the Internet.

        Here is a clue Jesse: STATISTICS CANNOT PROVE FRAUD. All statistics can do is offer a mathematically rigorous method for making comparisons between sets of numbers. It cannot prove WHY a particular comparison turns out the way it does. So if the results from Fulton County, Georgia are "statistically unusual" it doesn't necessarily mean that there was fraud occurring. It just means that there was something different that occurred, which MIGHT be fraud, but MIGHT also be one of any number of very legitimate reasons, first and foremost being the COVID pandemic changing people's voting behaviors and making valid statistical comparisons between this year's election and previous elections dubious at best.

        You know what would prove fraud? ACTUAL DOCUMENTED PROOF OF FRAUD. And at this point it would have to involve more than just one or two ballots, it would have to involve thousands and thousands of ballots across multiple states involving thousands of people. Show some ACTUAL PROOF of this MASSIVE FRAUD, preferably in court, and then I guarantee you will shut up all of the naysayers. But so far all it's been is just (a) statistics, (b) affidavits of people making nonverifiable claims that are on the same level as hearsay, and/or alleging actions that, even if true, would only result in a few dozen votes at most being implicated, and (c) crazy conspiracy theories, involving now even the likes of Hugo Chavez, which is insane.

        1. But because it MIGHT be fraud... there is reason to look deeper. To simply sat it MIGHT be something other than fraud doesn't mean it wasn't fraud.

          You are right, stats oy tell us something "different" than normal occurred. To ensure integrity shouldn't we want to know what caused that anomaly? Even if it is on the up-and-up we should want to know for social science curiosity. But the left's insistence on just hand-waving everything away is worrisome.

          Yes... hand-wave away things that are patently absurd. But fraud in and of itself isn't. In recent history there are stories of elections being rigged at various levels (from city council to JFK and Chicago). Not too much farther before that in the grand scheme of things you had Tammany Hall. Election fraud is not unheard of... but to act that now, THIS crop of Americans who are alive today, are pure as snow is just plain dumb.

        2. The stats in this case point to an event less likely to happen naturally without fraud than the sun becoming a red giant assuming presidential elections ever 4 years till that stellar eventuality.

  4. Time for popcorn (and tin hats). Should be entertaining.

  5. Right now the Trump campaign is putting the final touches on an epic suit that will clearly expose the entire Biden election fraud conspiracy. It will be filed directly with the Supreme Court who will certify Trump as the true winner. The other suits in the last few weeks were to misdirect the liberals and expose the disloyal “conservative “ judges. Soon the lobs will be crying like they never have before.

    1. They probably have it all ready, but are looking for the Submit button on the Supreme Court web page.

    2. Already filed and more filed in other states.

      The SCOTUS will decide Trump proved his claim in trump vs biden.

      Second term for Trump.

      1. What is this Trump v. Biden lawsuit that you hypothecate? And SCOTUS jurisdiction here is appellate only. Where and upon what legal theory do you surmise that such a lawsuit would originate?

    3. On what basis would the Supreme Court have jurisdiction to hear a case regarding election fraud "filed directly" with them? See Article III, Sec. 2 of the Constitution:


    4. "Soon the lobs will be crying like they never have before."

      That is the least of your future problems. When Republicans lose faith in our institutions, they will just game the shit out of the system and start winning elections that way (because it's abundantly clear that's what happened here, whether you deny it or not).

      And when you bitch and whine about it, I'm going to laugh.

  6. And just think: if voters had been able to read DNC emails this year, Trump would have won the election.

  7. The conventional wisdom has been firmly established by the media and Jacob like all right thinking libertarians is compelled to defend it.

  8. Here’s the quote that sums it all up from from one state’s Secretary of State, after he and his wife received death threats from Trump supporters, had a family members house broken into, and now has been forced to take a security detail:

    “If Republicans don’t start condemning this stuff, then I think they’re really complicit in it. “It’s time to stand up and be counted. Are you going to stand for righteousness? Are you going to stand for integrity? Or are you going to stand for the wild mob? You wanted to condemn the wild mob when it’s on the left side. What are you going to do when it’s on our side?”

    Who said that? Brad Raffensberger, Georgia Sec. of State. A Republican. Who voted for Trump. And had the temerity to call the election the way the voters voted.

    But one only has to read the comments here from Trump supporters to know how whacked out they are.

    Cue the whacked outs!

      1. Oh seriously - the Washington Post? Try again. And yes, I read it, but the title tells all, ie "failed attempt". It is not failed yet and it should be taken seriously by serious journalists or half the country will never trust another election.

        This sneering self-righteousness on your part IS THE PROBLEM. What would you be doing if Biden had been leading in all six states at 11:00 PM AND you had witnessed the stoppage of election returns at the same time in six remaining states, and suddenly was losing in all of them by 5:00 AM, due to a totally anomalous series of vote dumps in all six states at the same time in the early AM ? Would you be defending the integrity if Biden had lost in that way? Methinks NOT. THINK, MAN!

    1. Sad but true. Logic and reason are not part of the conspiracy theory so nothing is too far out to believe. Ultimately it’s probably the lizard people behind all this...

    2. I condemn the kind of violent threats and intimidation that BLM and Antifa traffic in. They should all be ashamed.

      1. That antifa traffics in. Black Lives Matter organizes relatively boring, peaceful events like marches, gatherings in public parks, etc.

        1. Republicans are usually boring, too.

        2. And the lefty shit ignores hundreds of millions in damage over the summer. God damn youre pathetic.

          1. Hundreds of million done by whom? People sitting at some Black Lives Matter rally listening to speakers?

            1. ^lol.. I gotta say; the opposition ignorance is 10-fold. As-if police stations were destroyed, burned, downtown business wasn't looted.

              Gimme a break.

              1. By whom? People marching in Black Lives Matter marches held in the middle of the day?

                1. Look no further than the Seattle Chaz mob.

        3. Ask the Atlanta women whom BLM shot in her car, killing her child. BLM are violent criminals.

    3. This is the magazine who called riots and arson peaceful protests. Who ignored death threats to lawyers who worked for the gop. Who rarely go lut of the way to call out media doxxing of random nobodies. This is the same magazine that had barely a concern for Rand Paul and his wife and virtually never discusses blm or antifa attacking trump supporters. Their fake cries can go fuck themselves.

      1. "This is the magazine who called riots and arson peaceful protests."

        You don't have to keep hanging out here.

        1. Well he probably does; just like me because the lefties sensor-media has banned any non-lefty-fan from their public appearance.

    4. Sure, the bullshit WaPo posts is all true. We believe you.

    5. Trump winning trump vs biden in the SCOTUS and the DOJ indicting election fraudsters will make trumps second term presidency so fun.

  9. To be fair, I don’t think Biden would have conceded until the electors voted, either.

    1. Why? No other candidate has failed to concede after the outside experts called the race. What has Biden ever said or done that would make you think he would be different?

      1. outside experts

        1. "outside experts"

          There's no such thing.

        1. So, that is Clinton and not Biden.

          1. True, but that’s why I think Biden wouldn’t have conceded, either.

      2. Al Gore?

        He did not concede until December 13th after a drawn out court battle.

      3. I will tell you what Biden said. He promised to Chris Wallace that he would NOT accept the results until the electors voted , NOT the media. But of course he doesn't remember a fracking word he said in those debates and has no history of keeping promises in 47 years.

      4. Because Hillary told him not to concede.

  10. Matt Braynard just sent his data over to the DOJ, upon their request. Data showing enough fraud to swing the election in Georgia, and that is just one of the many states investigated.

    You assholes are covering for a wanna be banana republic regime. Are you proud of yourselves ?

    1. Is it a smart move for the Republican Party to undermine Georgia Republican voters' confidence in their elections right when there is a runoff for the Senate seats? Maybe in 8th dimensional chess.

      1. Is it smart for libertarian to ignore voter fraud because he hated orange people?oh wait. You aren't one. You once asked why someone would call you a lefty shit. It is because you're not even interested in an analysis to show election integrity. Your guy won. Time to sweep it under the rug.

      2. Yeah maybe the corrupt poll workers will just forget how to steal the senate race using the same machines and tactics as before. Crossing my fingers!

      3. Poor unreason is scared that not only will Trump beat biden in trump vs biden legal case but two more GOP senators are getting voted in january.

        Then census 2020 is gonna take house seats from blue states and give them to red states taking away the democrat house majority.

        Then trump will get to replace justice breyer on the SCOTUS in the next 4 years.

    2. Do you believe Matt Braynard? If so, why?

      1. You are so ignorant you are hardly worth my time. His data is publicly available. He simply hired people to find and cross reference it.

        1. So the answer is: yes, you do believe him, but you don't have a good rational reason, other than "man I hope he's right and the democrats don't win".

          1. Of course transparency of information doesn't impress you. Maybe if he hid all of his proof in a room with windows obscured by pizza boxes you would think he was onto something, as long as he was wearing Biden/Harris apparel at the time.

  11. No it isn’t. It’s just courts helping run out the clock until electors vote and it’s too late. Courts think there’s no justice in anything unless the decision comes after years and years of court procedure.

  12. I know two people who think Biden "stole" the election. Both are, oddly enough, libertarian in their leanings.

    Which tells me it's not about evidence, or even party loyalty, but rather an innate contrarianism that tells them to say "bullshit" to everything. Biden won. "Bullshit". The sun will rise in the morning. "Bullshit".

    All the actual Republicans I know are aware that Biden won the election. They may blame the pandemic for this, or the mainstream media, or even [gasp] Democrat efforts to get out the vote, but they don't invent a conspiracy theory to explain it.

    1. The Republicans and Trump voters I know personally (as opposed to the nuts here), have accepted the loss and moved on with their lives already.

      1. Lol. Funny how you all lie. 70% of Republicans want an election audit at a minimum. You don't know Republicans. You are deep in your lefty bubble. I even have democrats that question some of the weird irregular statistics, other engineers who say they can't explain Milwaukee or Penn. One of them even has a hobby of doing statistical analysis of elections and he says "the election was very 2020" since the numbers don't correlate with any other election.

        Youre just a lying lefty shit.

    2. Well then they are uninformed morons. The evidence has been gathered in almost 4 weeks that would take a government years.

      As a libertarian who voted for trump and all republicans the fix was in with democrat election fraud. Democrats just hoped trump would concede and they could scare supporter from helping uncover the sloppy fraud job.

      1. You are no libertarian, and I mean that as a compliment.

  13. Trump's base is turning on Breitbart now for daring to report on his utter humiliation in the courts. You hate to see it.

    1. You people crack me up. The SCOTUS is deciding the case not middle courts.

      Same thing happened in 2000 with bush vs gore

      1. SCOUTS upheld the state supreme court ruling, and told Gore time is up, no more appeals, this ends now so the EC can vote.

        I expect Trump is likely to have the same outcome as Al Gore.

        1. Great. Fine. We'll see, and well before Jan 5, in case you're worried about the GA Senate runoff.

  14. Of course he can’t win the fix was in long before the election. We get it government media entertainment hate straight white people. They worship degenerate humans who cannot fend for themselves and need handouts.

    Just remember in the future when you’ve reached peak stupid that our lives were better when we didn’t elevate dumbass woke humans to power.

    1. America needs a dictatorship to save white America.

  15. Maybe, by the beginning of President Kamala’s third term, Trump’s claims of fraud will be looked back at as something Libertarians should have taken more seriously.

    1. They didn't even care about the Green Party being kicked off ballots through the courts.

  16. At this point, the best that can happen is for those who are genuinely concerned about election integrity is to propose some forward-looking reforms that will make elections more secure.

    Voter ID? Okay fine, but that is just one item, which is mired in controversy, there are plenty of others to be considered that aren't as divisive as that one.

    How about a rule that says all ballots from a precinct must be reported at the same time? So that you don't have same-day ballots counted and reported first, giving a misleading impression of who is ahead, and then mail-in ballots counted later. Have all the ballots reported at the same time from each precinct.

    How about taking a closer look at technology used for voting. Having electronic voting machines is IMO fine with me, but it all needs to be auditable and the code needs to be open-source so all can see what is happening.

    I think the smart thing to do in this case is to stop it with the stupid conspiracy crap and focus on what can be achieved in the near future.

    1. Mistakes were made, some people did some things.
      We will try harder next time.

    2. Amen.

    3. I like the precinct idea as well as states reporting final results in the order of statehood, just for fun.

    4. The courts are considering the claims of Trump's people right now. They'll probably continue to find that they're unfounded - or at least not founded enough to affect the outcome - and then most people will realize that all in all the voting system we have is probably not that bad.

      Or, we can do as the media has done and decide on our own whether Biden stole the election or Trump is trying to steal it, present that side as fact, and wonder why lots of people think truth is whatever they want it to be.

      1. The courts are considering whether the Trump team´s pleadings are sufficient for any lawsuit to proceed to the reception of evidence. So far the rulings are overwhelmingly dismissals for failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.

    5. Had to reread this post a few times and then take a shower. Not used to being in agreement with chemjeff.

      1. You aren't. He just wants things better next time. He is happy his chosen globalist won this time. It is fake just like his empathy towards the poster who lost his job due to covid restrictions. Jeff is a fake loser. He is the abusive husband who says sorry after the fact. Well he would be if he wasn't an incel.

        1. Maybe you could go get a snack and let the grownups talk.

    6. What you say has merit but much of the legislation around voting is designed to advantage your voters and disadvantage your challengers. Any number of things could be done to improve voting but they need to be done to improve the ease and integrity of the vote.

      I have noted that mail in voting will likely be much more popular in future elections and any concerns should be addressed and addressed quickly.

      1. Ya; And the new fad of out-running the police because stopping just takes too much of a persons effort and time should become the new norm... I mean; can't the police just mail-in the citations?

        Mail-In ballots were a bad idea from the very beginning.

        1. Police already mail citations. I got one about 6 weeks after a visited New Orleans telling me I was going too fast in a school zone. Cost me $75/dollars.

          Mail in ballots have been used for years and they are the primary method of voting in several states. The biggest problem with mail-in voting is that it simplifies the process. You request your ballot, vote in the convenience of your home, return your ballot and confirm its receipt by an app. One major party doesn't like easy voting as it brings out too many people. President Trump said it himself, mail in voting makes it easy to vote and Republicans won't win.

          So you are left two options, disallow mail-in voting and make voting harder, or broaden your electoral base. It will be interesting to see which way the Republicans go with this choice.

          Another plug hear for Libertarians, as Republican retreat to a smaller base there is room for Libertarians to make pick-ups. Mail-in voting means more liberty.

          1. Mail in voting makes it easy to harvest ballots.

          2. Mail-in voting means more liberty; ...to get-away with voter fraud.. You got half of that right. Just like mail-in citation collects fines and makes fraudulent charges easier to get away with.

            Consider this; It's easier to vote for President with massive ballot distribution than it is to vote for Prom Queen in any given H.S. USA elections aren't suppose to be the end result of a "free-for-all" doggie pile.

            1. Biden wins; Buddy, Chopper, Pluto, Snoopy, Benji, Brinkley, Bolt, Beethoven, Bruiser and Max all got their 'Dog-Liberty' Mail-In votes turned in. A little late; but nothing the Election officials can't correct.

          3. "We Are Columbine" film taught me that, sometimes, public school kids can run out into the roadway to get traffic to stop so kids can run away from school shooting incidents.

          4. How many ffing times does someone need to point out the difference between absentee ballots and mass mailing ballots to all addresses? It's like saying "immigrant" when we're discussing illegal immigrants. Stop insulting our intelligence.

    7. Well here’s the sad thing about conspiracies today...it’s all the rage in the Republican Party. A massive conspiracy of fraud in the election composed of Democrats, Chavez, Republican Secretaries of State, and voting machines. A massive conspiracy of climate scientists all over the world that are in it for the money perpetrating a hoax on global warming. A massive conspiracy on the pandemic (who can forget Trump saying you won’t hear anything more about COVID after November 4). And now? What party is actually putting forth congress candidates who embrace all things Q-anon? Yep...the GOP.

      And let’s not forget it’s now the party of Trump. And for the next 4 years it will be nothing but conspiracies from him.

      Jesse Walker here at Reason constantly writes about conspiracies...and ignores the fact that one of our major political parties is enthralled with conspiracies. It’s pathetic.

      1. You're correct; conspiracies are currently the MO largely of the right. But on the left you see a demand to "cancel" those with whom it doesn't agree by banning speakers on college campuses and removing editors who allow dissenting opinions to be heard, coupled with an increasing distaste for freedom of speech in the form of demands to create broad categories of "hate speech" that can be legally silenced. These tactics and conspiracies both arise from a desire to shape reality to one's own liking.

        1. I’m not saying there isn’t plenty to be worried about from the far left.

          I was only discussing conspiracy theories that are either embraced directly by the Republican Party, or at a minimum just given a nod to. Both are very problematic.

          1. And I agree with that.

            1. You fucks pushed russia and Ukraine for 4 years. Holy shit you are ignorant.

              1. All that shit was real dude. You think it was a hoax because the big fat treasonous criminal at the center of it told you to think that. Don't you have any self-respect?

                1. So real it was completely disproven.

                  1. I don't think you even know what the "it" you're referring to is, but I will happily take a citation for your claim.

                2. Stop eating ass, Tony.

      2. “All the rage in the Republican Party”.

        Yeah, because all of the Russian bullshit that’s been slopped around for the last 4 years never happened. And Stacy Abrams quietly accepted her defeat in Georgia and went off to obscurity. Those were both Team Red, right?

        1. "Two wrongs make a right!"

          "Psst, but nobody else refused to concede an election, so there isn't an analogous situation on the other side."

          "Shut up I need justification for my shitty ape morals!"

          1. 61% of Democrats think the 2016 election was hacked by the Russians.

            Distrust of elections is a bipartisan problem.

            1. Where are you getting these polls where so many democrats believe 2016 was hacked?

              Most non-Trumpists I know think that the Russians influenced people via social media, twitter botx, fake facebook users etc., not that votes were changed somehow. They also think Trump worked with Russia to dig up dirt on his opponents and influence the election. They don't think that Russia actually hacked the voting machines enough to change the election, rather they think Russia hacked the DNC servers etc. to dig up dirt.

              Trump got his people to think COVID was no big deal and vote in person. The democrats and independents who didn't like Trump in big cities and suburbia mostly voted by mail because they were more wary of COVID. Trump encouraged the whole "vote-by-mail-is-fraud" (except for my supporters) story way ahead of time. He wanted an excuse for losing way ahead of time.

      3. Maybe that was what happened to Chavez after offering oil to the USA. Could that had been a problem after his nationalization action of giving residency to electricity?

    8. Yes jeff. After this election then we can ask for validity in elections. God youre such a fake fuck.

  17. The Democrats and the media have completely blown their credibility over the last four years with everything from chasing a ridiculous Russian conspiracy story that was much ado about nothing to covering "mostly peaceful protests" that resulted in hundreds of millions of dollars in damage to businesses through looting and arson. This is why so many Republicans and Independents don't believe the media anymore. And if the left and the news media think they're about to make up for the last four years by beating this dead horse into the ground, they're mistaken.

    Just accept the facts: the reason so many Republicans don't believe the mainstream media anymore is because the mainstream media sold their credibility short for four years (at least). You can only cry wolf so many times before the townspeople stop believing you, and when they stop believing you, it isn't the townspeople's fault. It's your own fault for crying wolf.

    Beating a dead horse into the ground, pounding on people for not believing you anymore, etc., etc. isn't about to win the mainstream media its credibility back either. That will take years--and may never happen. We'll probably see whole new models and media centers spring into being as streaming and new media take us places we never expected before--before the mainstream media as it is now wins back the trust of average Americans.

    Gallup says 89% of Republicans and 64% of Independents have little or no faith in the media anymore.


    Make fun of them all you want. They're not about to start believing you because you hate them and laugh at them.

    1. I believe the media could regain credibility quite quickly by returning to the basic rules of journalism: news is news; opinion is opinion. Donald Trump doesn't make "baseless" claims; he makes claims. Let quotes from your sources establish whether they're baseless or not and let the reader or viewer decide.

      But the media will not do this because we've gone to an "infotainment" model where news outlets play to different audiences. People read and watch what makes them happy and reinforces what they already believe. This becomes tragic in such situations as when you can't even get people to believe basic public health messages about a pandemic. They're so used to seeing everything spun a certain way that they think a damn virus is made up even as thousands die. It's a very sad situation when truth is so battered.

      1. Biden just picked Psacki to be his press secretary. After working in the Obama admin she went to CNN. There is no distinction between media and government. So hoping for something different is useless. The marriage is forged and you will never get the truth ever again. Maybe try posting at dailykos or some other left wing blog.

        1. Wasn't Trump's press secretary the daughter of a politician with a talk show on FOX News?

          1. Not sure if you think this proves anything other than the. Fact that the media has basically been in the tank for the government for decades now.

            1. The media is the mouthpiece of the Democratic party.

              1. Or maybe the respectable media, like the Democratic party, both assume that the real world is as it appears to be, while the Republican party and its media mouthpieces are in an alternate reality where everything's fucked up and stupid.

                When truth doesn't agree with your political party, there must be something wrong with truth! Clearly.

                1. I remember 8 years of Obama. The truth was - it sucked. Do you even recall what the country was like 4 years ago? Wars. Stagnant economy. China stealing our jerbs with slave labor. Not pretty.

                  1. Ha, yes, what a shithole this country was under Obama unlike now. That’s what they’ll say in the history books: 2020, the golden age.

                    1. History will laugh at the utter insanity of the Democrat party. Do you really think the ideas of AOC et al, will age well historically?

                      History will praise Trump for waging war against thousands of swamp creatures and other terrifying monsters of liberalism.

                    2. History will be able to recognize a proto-fascist movement when it sees one.

                2. ""Or maybe the respectable media,""

                  Where is that?

              2. The orifice is the knocker for the ball gag.

              3. Now explain how Mnuchin made all his money. Your favorite target "Hollyweird" sure has a whole lot of movies executive prduced by him. Funny, no?

        2. "There is no distinction between media and government. So hoping for something different is useless. The marriage is forged and you will never get the truth ever again. "

          Sorry bud but this ship sailed long ago, and didn't hear you complaining when:

          - Trump had his press secretary literally telling you not to believe your lying eyes, believe what trump tells us
          - Trump appointed a new PS, daughter to GOP politician / radio host; said new PS blatantly told you to ignore what you see and believe Trump propaganda daily, until she stopped trying and just shut down the briefings
          - Trump team pushed "alternative facts" for those inconvenient, definitely not true but we want you to believe it, scenarios...straight Orwellian
          - Trump appoints another new PS, former CNN R-shill, later promoted to OANN contributor and RNC fucking spokesperson...to be press secretary. She has been the most successful pusher of propaganda to anyone who will listen

          Please spare me the pearl clutching over whoever the fuck he appoints. The bar is sitting on the fucking ground at this point after the propaganda that was put out the past 4 years.

          1. Really? What alternative facts? The Trump campaign was spied upon? True. There was no Russian collusion? True. Black and hispanic unemployment was made to be the lowest ever? True. Trump sentencing reform has freed more Blacks than 8 years of Obama/Biden? True. If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor? Your health insurance premiums will go down an average of $2500? False and false (oops, that's Obama x 2). In other words, Ham, just stfu.

      2. Not without a total house cleaning. Too many names have lost all credibility. Even when they stick to the facts it is obvious they are being entirely selective with which facts they choose to highlight.

        Sullum included.

    2. You're right. The only thing left for responsible citizens to do is to make sure such unhinged reality deniers and fully grown babies can never win an election again.

      1. unhinged reality deniers and fully grown babies can never win an election again

        -- Yep; which covers just about every single Democrat Politician.

        1. Does the fact that you all use the same incorrect grammar not give you any concern that you might be mindless bleating sheep being told what to think?

          1. Does that fact that being OCD about grammar instead of addressing the point given give you any concern that you might be an authoritarian bigot?

            1. My main concern is that you didn't actually make a point, you just said "nuh uh Democrat bad!"

              1. Obviously your main concern was sentence structure.

        2. And they want to blame everyday Republicans for not believing them anymore!

      2. Just because "orange man bad," it doesn't justify fraud.

        "responsible citizens"

        Do you honestly believe "responsible citizens" will respond to all this by listening to a geriatric patient with dementia? You are an ass-eating retard if you believe that, Tony.

    3. At this point, what the media says or doesn't say about Trump's legal challenges are irrelevant. It's the substance of those challenges themselves that should give people pause. Trump has lost all but maybe one of them (and maybe that one got reversed, I frankly lost count). If there was ANY substance to Trump's claims, don't you think his legal track record would have been a little better than that?

      Again it isn't about what the media is saying, it is about what Trump's lawyers are saying in court and what judges are saying in response. Are they not to be believed as well?

      1. He got a Judge in PA to say the problems were substantial and likely to prevail. I can't remember if it lasted 3 days or two.

        My estimation? The fix is in and it is very large. Unsustainable large.

  18. Did reason even notice that a Pa judge basically agreed the mail in ballot changes made this year were probably unconstitutional but filed too late in his eyes?


    Of course the judge in this case ignores that he likely would have tossed a suit made earlier due to lack of standing as no harm had yet been done.

    But we are ignoring this?

    1. ENB will let us know all about that tomorrow. From information filtered through a NYT tweet

    2. Unreason is only going to do a few stories about Trump “setbacks” to keep up the narrative that biden won.

      The SCOTUS will decide trump vs biden just they decided bush vs hore on 2000. All the other courts are sideshows for entering evidence into the record.

      If democrat judges really wanted to hamper trump they would hold a trial. They think by dismissing trump campaign lawsuits with scathing opinion it will get trump to quit or the SCoTUS to not side with trump.

      Thomas is not retiring in the next 1.5 months so he knows something that democrats wont admit. Thomas aint no RBG.

      1. Democrats wanted a politicized SCoTUS and thats what they got.

        Trump wins trump vs biden 5-4.

        1. Yes, the new wrinkle to the master plan. The lower courts are dismissing all of Trump's lawsuits with such dispatch in order to quickly get it before ACB where she will overthrow the results of the election.

          Because you care about election integrity just that much.

        2. A purely political decision by SCOTUS would be a very bad thing.

          1. Communism will be much better.

      2. The remedy for a dismissal for failure to state a claim would be vacating the dismissal and remanding to the district court for the taking of evidence. No evidence has been entered into the record, because the courts have dismissed at the pleading stage.

        And BTW, Joe Biden is not a party to any of the lawsuits. Your hypothetical Trump v. Biden suit is a bunch of malarkey.

  19. I thought we'd be out of the denial phase by now. Mitch McConnell would really like you guys to get over this and become enthusiastic about voting on the totally not compromised Dominion voting machines in Georgia.

    I, however, would be just fine if you continued as you are.

    1. Most of us are. Biden is the President-Elect. He already had his first old-person fall and broke his ankle, with a "playing with the dog and slipped" cover story.

      1. Don't you mean the phony boot covering up the ankle bracelet, as he is imminently being shipped to Riker's Island for his son's laptop crimes?

        1. It's not a phony boot. He wandered off from his nurse caretakers and hurt himself. This is actually a serious case of elder neglect.

      2. " Biden is the President-Elect."

        The Office of The President -Elect agrees.

    2. ""I thought we’d be out of the denial phase by now""

      Is that the #notmypresident phase?

      1. And is that before or after the commitment to protest his entire term phase?

        1. Wake me up when the republicans impeach Biden with hearsay, opinion, and innuendo.

      2. Bwaaaah hah hah! Good one! Both halves of the looter Kleptocracy are THE SAME THING down to the whiney tantrums after being clobbered upside with the 2x4 of (what's left of) Libertarian Party spoiler votes. More... please, start scratching each others' eyes over how smart it was for Linseed Graham Cracker to gloat to women voters how his bitch Amy would soon have them bleeding to death in back alleys the way God intended--in October! I almost broke my foot laughing just now!

        1. So you think the Constitution guarantees the right to an abortion? You're loving the efficient disposal of an inconveniently live fetus at birth? And you're posturing libertarian? You're all about individual rights, correct? Hilarious.

    3. Tony, why not congratulate Himmler and Goering on having Linseed Graham Cracker tell the girls Judge Amy would have them bleeding out in back alleys as soon as the pro-death Republicans are elected in a Georgia landslide? Oh wait! Did Jo Jorgensen get SIX TIMES THE DIFFERENCE between votes for The Orange Antichoice Lewser and votes for the sclerotic, demented, corrupt, coercive, prohibitionist Swamp Thing whose party copied them Libertarian planks? Awwww... That's a shame. No pelf, boodle, confiscated swag or asset-forfeiture-financed cocaine choppers for republicans in those counties. Boo hoo hoo.

  20. With a tyrannical Union of States Misgoverning body (void of Constitutional Limits) election fraud and corruption will just keep getting worse by the same interval.. POWER breeds corruption.

    And I hate to point out the obvious but the left (i.e. Biden) is not the better choice for limiting the federal tyranny going on. As-if the Obama Administration and it's wildly growth of tyranny wasn't the perfect reference.

    Sadly; Too many people in the USA are more than excited to run around with 3rd party gov-guns STEALING and ENSLAVING their neighbors labors and ownership rights. It was a real shocker to see the 'Angry' emoj on the Cares Act legislation on govtrack so UN-popular it was in the '...' other hidden options by a 10% to 90% margin with thumbs-up. Tell me those "too many" is about at 90%.

    1. When the lefty idea that the POWER to STEAL = WEALTH is ingrained in 90% of the people we are well on our way to a failing country.


    2. Yes please do react with maximum hysteria over every little thing the Biden administration does. Seal yourselves up in prison of constant overreaction so your concerns can be noted and safely ignored.

      It's much better than when you guys are humping the flag in celebration of the cornucopia of individual liberty that is having an actual fascist in charge teargassing protesters to clear the way for a photo op.

      1. Wave that partisan hack freak-flag! lol... You can do better than this Tony. Let those prejudices go..

      2. They were not protesters, they were rioters, and I thought it was pretty funny watching them get gassed like little bitches.

        Most voters agreed with me, as the (legal) results show.

        1. America kills fascists.

      3. You mean like the unfounded allegations against Trump that dominated the news for almost 3 years?

        If the body political was represented by a human body, Biden and his supporters would be the sack fungus and anal rash.

    3. Ah yessss! After Georgie Waffen Bush faith-based asset forfeiture looting Crash made republican fascism as popular as n 1932, a black gentleman presided your ku-klux whining and crying for eight forking years, you idiots! Finally The Don saved the machine from Mittwits and like televangelists--and how do you repay him? By threatening half the voters with a coerced choice between coathanger birth control and paying the AMA-Pharma cartel $600 an hour for gubmint-licensed health care! That is such a special kind of stupid I hope I don't choke to death watching you claw at each other's snouts once it sinks in that libertarians are at best amused by your discomfiture!

  21. “Democratic election officials in multiple battleground states conspired with the Biden campaign to deny Trump his rightful victory...”

    Jesus Christ would y’all cut it out with the grand conspiracy bullshit. It takes no more of a conspiracy than the very real fact of Democrats absolute hatred of Trump. If anything actually happened at all, that’s all the explanation that is needed.

    1. You might want to look at 1876 for widespread problems. Or 1960 for obvious Democrat fraud.

  22. The left/media/government:
    - lies about climate change
    - lies about the prevalence of police killing unarmed blacks and "systemic racism"
    - lied about Kavanaugh running rape gangs
    - lies about the threat/uniqueness of covid19
    - covered up for Harvey Weinstein
    - literally invented the "Russia collusion" story
    - lied about a kid in a maga hat taunting a native activist
    - lies about Trump's "fine people" hoax
    - lied about the Ukraine "whistle-blowing"
    - covered up Biden's laptop story
    - lied about mass surveillance
    - lied about WMDs
    - lies about vote fraud

    I'm going to stop here, with just the first few examples off the top of my head, because the list would be near endless otherwise.

    The source of the above falsehoods are who you are telling us to trust to the point that statistical anomalies should be dismissed out of hand and their position taken at face value...

    1. Thank heavens Nardz has right-wing twitter to inform him of the Real Truth(tm)!

      1. I think I stumbled across some Lavin dude on cable? I don't have cable at home so I'm watching it here. People think that? Wow. I thought Coast to Coast was nuts. If Nardz listens to this guy that would explain a lot.

        1. Probably Levin, one of the spewers of garbage on Breitbart and I am sure high on the list of people Nardz follows to '"get the real story!!" on DOMINION-SOROS-VENEZUELA-gate.

          Fun fact, he was on his radio program spewing that there isnt enough focus on religion/prayer and less on things like algebra in schools. This is what you get with his kind of thinking (and zealots like Nardz to march right along with him)

      2. So which of the things he listed are actually true?

        1. Only the WMDs, and maybe Harvey Weinstein, who is actually in prison so I guess they failed.

      3. It's not brain surgery... Google Dominion systems, look-up the CEO name who ironically is LEADER of a national lobbying green-peace/climate hoax committee. I don't know about Soro or Venezuela but it's inarguable that Dominion is operated by a left-wing hack which humorously doesn't even have to abide by USA law being based in Canada.

        Texas was right to throw this system under the bus.

        1. ...And in recent news; Fulton county systems experience server crashes during recount. Excuse given? **The ballot counters didn't know what they were doing** when they tied the counters to the wrong server? Did someone try to push the Go-Fraud button?

          1. Isn't it funny that every GA county's recount and original count goes along just fine EXCEPT the one's that gave Biden a win. At what point to you go from "Whoops y daisy" to "Your doing that on PURPOSE!"

    2. Climate change is no lie, it happens throughout the year and to anyone who travels north or south a long distance.

      Perhaps you mean the notion of melting icecaps?

      1. WHAT! You mean the time of year and N or S location changes climates!! No, no, no; I was told it was ALL due to CO2 emissions... /s

    3. Bwaaaaah hah hah! Stop it! You're killing me! This is as good as my redneck boss scoldingly directing my attention to the John Birch Society's objections to the "Feel Like I'm Fixin' To Die Rag" in their 1969 newsletters. Nixon's National Socialists are the only reason Communist China exists (other than as a plain of glass or free country). He's the superstitious altruist who licked the blacking off of their curly-toe shoes!

  23. Both can be true though. Dem operatives harvested and submitted thousands of ballots, signatures were matched only to a 40% standard, envelopes were tossed, and a few key swing states were delivered. Repubs file lawsuits but can't prove any fraud. Recounts only recount the stuffed ballot boxes.

    1. If they can't prove any fraud then that means you, and they, don't get to use it as an excuse to delegitimize the government. There's opinions and there's treason.

      1. Not being allowed to prove fraud and not being able to are different things, dipshit. No cases have been dismissed for lack of evidence.

        1. President Trump's lawyers have said in court that this is not a fraud case. You can't provide evidence of fraud if your case is not about fraud. What you can do is go out lie to the media and the public. What you can't do is go into a court and lie. So in the court you tell the truth which is no fraud.

      2. "there’s treason"

        61% of Demcrats think the Russians hacked the 2016 elections.

        That many think the Democrats stole the 2020 election is a problem for Democrats to solve, and their lapdog media is not helping.

        1. No it really isn’t. Frankly Democrats are exhausted having to be the only people who care about facts and the well-being of the country.

          Russia has always been in our shit. Why is that suddenly controversial the moment Trump is accused of being their puppet? Maybe he should have tried a little harder not to behave as if he were doing Putin’s bidding deliberately at every opportunity.

          If people want to ruin this country because they’re too stupid to understand what facts are as a result of their media diet, I agree that it’s a social problem. You want to put me in charge of fixing it? Give me the authority and I’ll fix it real good.

          1. "There’s opinions and there’s treason.", Tony. Democrats had their 3-years of trial on Russia. They failed. Trump has had 3-weeks so far.

            1. A party of spineless traitors can let a president off the hook for treason. We learned that too.

      3. It’s a free country. We can delegitimization the government any way we want, Tony. That is, we can consider and treat Biden and Harris as the imposters they are. That’s not treason.

        1. Considering Biden and Harris are fully Anti-Constitutional thus the very master's of de-legitimizing the USA 'real' government - I'd say they themselves are anywhere from 90% to 100% treasonous.

          1. When and where have Biden and Harris levied war on the United States or given aid and comfort to enemies?

            Treason is a wartime offense.

            1. Supported and facilitated by hostile regimes. Treason might stick.

        2. I'd just prefer if we not have to test the question, and all it would take is for you idiots to believe that facts are real.

          You really want facts not to be real anymore? Is that your goal?

      4. They did prove it, and the government was already delegitimized; this event just confirms what we all already knew. Nobody trusts elections in this country anymore and it's all YOUR fault, Tony. How many times did YOU vote? (we know it was more than once, so no need to lie like you usually do)

        1. Tony's whole family voted.
          Including the ones voting from graveyards.

        2. You don't think it's odd that there is not a single actual fact of the matter that you will accept unless it somehow results in Trump winning? Do you think that is a healthy civilized attitude for living in a democracy?

  24. Sadly it won't be a reality check for all the Democrats who will continue to claim that Trump's judges are all sycophants who were appointed solely to rule in his favor in all cases

    1. Beat me to it. I was just about to point that out.

    2. Or Trump sycophant judges weren't even able to refrain from laughing Giuliani's clown show out of court.

      What Democrats learned from this is that Republicans are traitors who hate the country. They shouldn't get any judges. And if the election had been close, they would have stolen it (again).

  25. I think its funny that exhibit 1 being used as evidence of fraud from Sidney Powell's lawsuit in Georgia is an analysis of a survey asking respondents several different questions about mail in ballots.

    The analysis of the survey supposedly shows statistical anomalies in the vote count. A survey.

    99% of statistics are made up, right?

    1. There's a vast difference between a share-your-opinion 'survey' and a verification of physical 'facts' survey. As in the very difference between collecting evidence and collecting popular opinion.

      1. So, an analysis of a survey based on people self reporting the truth on something so controversial as mail-in ballots is supposed to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling? Its an analysis of a survey that is then supposed to give you an insight as to how accurate the vote count is. Give me a fucking break.

        1. It was questioning voters about their own ballot procedure and comparing that questioning to the actual physical result. The only reason it's being called a "survey" is because lefty-media wants to down-play it and it wasn't done by the police department.

          1. Its not being called a survey by the media. It is listed in her exhibit as an analysis of a survey. And the affadavit signed and provided by the analysis expert calls it an analysis of a survey.

            Try again, sir.

            1. And if the EXACT same was preformed by the police department? I guess they're just "surveying" witnesses -- nothing to see here?

              1. Nice What If and strawman.

                Try again.

                1. No straw-man there...

                  "The analysis of the survey supposedly shows statistical anomalies in the vote count. A survey. 99% of statistics are made up, right?"

                  You're purposely trying to de-legitimatize the process of investigation BECAUSE it wasn't done by a police department.

                  1. I never said a word about police. Ok, not strawman. But a what if and more likely a red herring. WTF, dude. Did I mention the police at all? You mentioned police. Not me.

                    You cannot seriously tell me that an analysis of an exit poll will show voter fraud. Get a grip.

                  2. Seriously, can you have a little more good faith debate here? I don't give one shit about the media and what they say. You claimed the media called it a survey - they didn't. The exhibit from Powell shows it to be an analysis of a... SURVEY. You can't even admit you are making shit up.

  26. Ooh, it gets even better. Sidney Powell has Ronald Watkins as a witness. Ya know, the guy who runs the message board where Q supposedly drops his messages to his QAnon followers.

    This is better than Scooby Doo!

    1. Let me go further. He is being used as an expert witness because he makes the statement that he is an election expert because he read the manual on the Dominion voting machine. This is literally in the exhibits of her lawsuit.

  27. Were I a lawyer on Trump’s legal team, Judge Bibas’s opinion and decision would make me grin like a Chessy cat.

  28. This is naught other than an invitation for Pennsylvanians to "step up & bat for the standing president" if they have any personal knowledge of wrongdoing. Thus -- "easily proveable, " per the barman. After all, election results are not official until next month. Election results have simply been 'proved' at this point with all known evidence brought to tables.

  29. I have no idea whether there was widespread election fraud, and we will likely never know for certain given the way this election was conducted. It is clear that several states violated state constitutions and state laws in conducting the election; courts themselves have said so.

    But it’s despicable that a supposedly libertarian magazine would simply fall in line behind the Democrat party line and denounce valid concerns about election integrity as conspiracy theories. Reason has crossed the line from simply dumb to actively evil.

    1. There are no valid concerns.

      What about Donald Trump makes him more deserving than any other human ever to run for president of endless deference as he plays out his emotional weaknesses in our courts with our money? His unusual competence as president?

      It is dangerous for millions of people to be propagandized into believing that legitimate elections weren't legitimate. It is a threat to the foundation of the country. You may be OK with that, but the country has a right to fight back against people who would destroy it. Every libertarian will tell you that self-defense is justified.

  30. So now we have another Trump turncoat traitor. Bibas is nothing but a weasel and liar bought out by the Soros gang.

    1. Go smoke some more weed. Maybe that will help you come up with some thoughts that are a little more original.

  31. I'm laughing at Sullum's apparent belief that Biden won without massive fraud.

    1. I'm laughing at your apparent belief that Trump could have won Michigan (+13 Dem) and Pennsylvania (+7 Dem) after totally hosing Covid-19 and causing thousands of deaths in those states.

      1. It wasn't the Union of States JOB to deal with LOCAL disease spread.. I swear people and their worshiping of the federal Gov-Gods is sickening.

        1. Funny that you say that its not the Federal Governments job to protect the health and safety of the citizens of its nation, but when the local governments did what they did without any sort of leadership from Trump, everyone cried out to ol' Trumpy Trump to save them and use the powers of the Federal Government to stop the evil Empire of States conspiring to restrict your freedoms. LOLZ what was that about conservatives being about states' rights and small federal government? Go home.

          1. It is the job of the federal government to ensure all states abide by the BoR per 14A. While I agree many conservatives seeking this protection was beyond what that protection offers; THAT is actually part of the federal governments JOB.

            1. Case law shows that the Supreme Court has ruled both ways on the equal protection clause of the 14A in regards to States rights using the 10A. So really, its a case by case basis.

      2. You really want a Fuhrer as president, don't you?

  32. The opinions of the electors are the only ones that matter.

  33. In 2016 I nearly wet my pants laughing at commie dems wailing and moaning "we wuz robbed". They wanted the pigs to keep shooting and looting over victimless heresy while the fascists at least had sense enough to not try to ban electricity. Now the fascists that ignored the 2016 LP platform while the Dems copied our old Roe v Wade and Stop Shooting Our Children planks are pissing and moaning while the Dems snort rails off of Epstein's hookers' asses. Disgusting arrogant nationalsocialists, you got what you deserved. If looters across the aisle nationalize your mansions do NOT come crying to me. LP spoiler votes rool!

    1. Clinton +2.8 million popular vote. It makes little sense Trump won unless you acknowledge his massive fraud.

      1. Right; because of course we live in a King Monarchy Dictatorship and definitely NOT a Union of States.

        1. You have to admit it looks a little shitty for you to be whining about a president losing an election who never was actually wanted by most Americans. Maybe all the fraud just canceled out an inherently stupid way of electing presidents. Except there was no fraud so shut up.

          1. I see you're still pretending you live in a place that isn't part of reality. The USA is a Constitutional Union of Republican States. If you don't like it MOVE!

    2. The fascists won this election, and fascists like you, Hank, are happy.

  34. Contesting a court matter on basis of "omniscience lacking" as pertains to a non-Pennsylvanian matter may be appropriate for someone whose political party were supposed to be politically-aware. However, the President is not recognized as partisan in any official duties and therefore his party is not supposed to be commuted by title in his official duties. Clearly the President cannot be expected to be omniscient about state politics nor even agree with every single move that a bipartisan state legislature may make.

    The very idea of mail-in ballots being improper looks to hinge on the Congressional veto power cited in COTUSA. Congress has some leeway decide whether to revise a state's voting precinct plan ( 'times, manner, ... and places,' albeit with some restriction).

    Of course, if the Prez had not expressed alarm over mail-in ballots some months prior, it wasn't as if this wasn't a call for ensuring tight security with the vote.

    Mail-in ballots can certainly be fabricated and sent out in unmarked, paper-wrapped packages like bombs and then be accessed by anyone who does not have to prove their identity to mail them back. If that does not look implausible, then perhaps the Prez was correct.

  35. Even if it doesn't (and won't) change the outcome, it might just expose enough fraud that an investigation and corrective action will prevent Democrats from refining it.

    1. The only people trying to fuck with elections in this country are Republicans. They do most of the gerrymandering and all of the disenfranchisement, and now they're the ones doing all the ratfucking by standing by as Trump plays out this ridiculous treasonous farce.

      You people need to reacquaint yourselves with reality or stop voting.

      1. No, election fraud has been the exclusive province of the Democrats since the party came into existence.

        As for your suggestion that I stop voting, 20 years in the Army says tell me you punk ass doesn't come equipped with a pair that would be willing to try and stop me.

        1. I love threats of violence sent through a keyboard. It's so hot and chic these days.

          And I love parroting talking points with no original thought. Do you prefer Steven Crowder or Alex Jones?

  36. I don’t really care what happens in court, or what smug headline you can come up with. For a candidate to have won Florida, Ohio, and Iowa; and that candidates party picked up seats across the country; and the other guy won by mass mail in voting in a few select cities run by that guy’s party; is on its face suspicious. This won’t be proven this week or next month. It’ll take years.

    1. Not what happened. Both parties increased turnout relative to 2016 but Biden increased it by a bit more across the board.

      1. Across the board*

        *Statement valid only in 4 swing states where minority voters voted completely differently from the rest of the country and massive numbers in the tens of thousands double voted in multiple states.

        1. Where is your proof?

    2. Reply To operator six.

      “ I don’t really care what happens in court,”

      Why would you care about the legal branch of government?

      “For a candidate to have won Florida, Ohio, and Iowa”

      Yes and those were counted.

      “and the other guy won by mass mail in voting in a few select cities run by that guy’s party”

      Cities votes with other guys as mayors or other guys as governors are suspect. Show me evidence.

      I voted libertarian. All of our votes were legit.

  37. I don’t find it suspicious that three “swing stares” which had only voted for a Republican presidential candidate once in the last quarter decade voted Democratic. And just as the 2016 election was as much about people voting against Clinton as voting for Trump, the 2020 can be viewed as people voting against Trump as much as voting for Biden. Even the most hard core Trump supporters have to recognize that Trump’s chaotic “style” was vert troublesome to many.

  38. "No evidence. No evidence. No evidence"... as I sit here watching a live stream of person after person testifing in front of the Michigan Senate Oversight Comittee about fraud they personally whitnessd at the TCF center in Detroit. I mean, I have personally witnessed at least 3 instances of vote fraud in my little life (in California). Sorry, it's simply moronic to pretend there is no evidence. Regardless who really won, this should be the trigger to fix this institutional fraud that has been going on all along, and probably got turned up to 11 by taking advantage to the Covid Mail-in with Zero Custody situation. If mail-in becomes the norm, we, the people, are sunk.

  39. Affidavits are pretty much worthless. I could find you a couple hundred people in my state alone who swore they saw Bigfoot this year. We are a Bigfoot state.

    (We have a lot of drunken hunters here. Stay out of the woods during hunting season.)

  40. If a judge rules that there is not enough evidence a crime was committed, that does not mean the crime was not committed. It just means there was not enough evidence for a court to decide it was.

    If I take a deck of cards, then immediately deal myself a royal flush, you can reasonably suspect I cheated. Just because you can't actually prove it, does not mean I didn't cheat. It just means I got away with it.

    There were most certainly irregularities that have not been adequately explained. This needs to be investigated. To make this all about Trump, regardless of how you come down on it, is irresponsible and damaging to the trust and reliability of the election process.

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