Jo Jorgensen

Think Jo Jorgensen Is a Spoiler? Run These Numbers First

Third-party voters tend to sit out elections without third-party choices.

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As Republicans gear up to blame Libertarian candidate Jo Jorgensen for spoiling the election in battleground states that President Donald Trump is poised to narrowly lose, it's worth working through the math: Do they have a case that the presence of a third choice was enough to upend the outcome between the two major parties?

As we await more final results from Georgia, Nevada, and Pennsylvania, let's use as our working example the more completely tabulated state of Wisconsin, which Joe Biden flipped back blue by a margin of 20,534 votes. Jorgensen received 38,270 votes in the Badger State. How would they have been distributed otherwise?

This is unknowable, but we can work through some educated guesses. In 2016, a CBS exit poll asked supporters of Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson who they would have voted for in just a two-candidate race. Twenty-five percent said Hillary Clinton, 15 percent favored Trump, and 55 percent said they wouldn't have voted at all. Take away that 55 percent from Jorgensen's 2020 Wisconsin vote and you have only 17,221 total ballots—not enough to overcome a 20,534-vote margin, even if every single Libertarian voter switched to the Republican.

In that same CBS poll, 61 percent of voters for Green Party nominee Jill Stein said they, too, would not have otherwise voted. That compares to a national nonvoting rate of 41 percent. This makes intuitive sense: Third-party voters are by definition less satisfied with the two parties than the average American.

This year, the nonvoting share nationwide among eligible adults is projected to be about 34 percent. Any attempt to imagine a 2020 statewide result without the Libertarian alternative should begin by lopping off at least 34 percent—and likely a double-digit chunk more—of Jorgensen's votes. Applying, say, a 45 percent nonvoting formula to Wisconsin gives you just 21,049 votes with which to make up that 20,534-vote margin. Do you really think that 97.5 percent of Libertarian voters prefer Trump to Biden?

We also have some idea, through multiple pre-election and exit polls, how 2016 third-party supporters voted this time around: overwhelmingly for Biden. The New York Times exit poll of 15,590 voters showed that of the 5 percent of respondents who voted third-party in 2016, 62 percent said they preferred Biden and just 24 percent went Trump. A pre-election New York Times/Siena College poll of 2016 Johnson voters in six northern battleground states showed 38 percent for Biden, 29 percent for Jorgensen, and 14 percent for Trump.

Now, before you start making assumptions from this that Libertarian voters definitely tilt Democrat, a word of contextual warning: 2016 was a spike year both for the Libertarian Party (with a record-shattering 3.28 percent of the vote), and third party/independent voters overall (5.73 percent, the highest in two decades).

What percentage of voters backed third-party or independent presidential candidates in other years? The total comes to 1 percent in 2004, 1.45 percent in 2008, 1.75 percent in 2012, and (so far) 1.63 percent this year. Libertarians received 0.99 percent in 2012 and appear on track to get 1.15 percent in 2020. Given that the Libertarian Party has 652,000 registered voters in the two-thirds of the country that records such information, there may be a base Libertarian vote of around a million people. Johnson received just under 1.3 million votes in 2012; Jorgensen is on pace for around 1.8 million. It could just be that reliable Libertarian voters in non-spike years are…reliable Libertarian voters. You can't just reassign their preferences.

As election forecasters Kyle Kondik and J. Miles Coleman pointed out in a thoughtful analysis back in May, "Some third party voters are just not gettable by the major parties." The duo also made this plausible-sounding argument: "Generally speaking, we think Biden would benefit more from a straight-on head to head election with Trump, because it would force Trump disapprovers—a larger group than Trump approvers nationally—to choose the only anti-Trump alternative. If Trump disapprovers have a larger menu of anti-Trump options, some of them might choose candidates other than Trump."

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130 responses to “Think Jo Jorgensen Is a Spoiler? Run These Numbers First”

1. Ranked-choice voting would have made for an interesting alternate timeline.

1. A vote for Jo Jorgensen is a vote for Trump!

1. If you’re a Republican or Rep-leaning indy in a contested state, and you don’t want to vote for Trump, and vote Libertarian or Don’t Vote instead, that’s still half a vote against Trump. It’s not as big a vote against him as running for Biden.
If you’re a Dem or Dem-leading Indy in a contested state, and you really hate Joe Biden so you’re voting for Jo or Not Voting instead, yeah, that’s half a vote for Trump.

Me? I’m a Libertarian in California, the presidential vote’s solidly blue, so my vote’s for Jo doesn’t help Trump any or hurt Biden’s chance of winning.

And we’ve got the open jungle primary thing (ugh), so for partisan-office primaries, if there’s a Libertarian running I’ll vote for them, if there isn’t but there’s a good Indy or Green or other 3rd party candidate, I’ll usually vote for them, though sometimes I’ll vote for the second-ranked Dem so that the general election ends up Dem-Dem and I get to pick the better Dem.

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3. Similar here in NM. Even if all the third party voters (including the folks who voted for the “Party for Socialism and Liberation” candidate) had voted for Trump, Biden would have still been up 75k votes. So voting third party here was not a game changer for anything.

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2. A vote for freedom is a vote against God’s Own Prohibitionists!

2. Trump confiused that vote ….READ MORE

3. If Libertarians had refrained from voting in the Perdue Senate race in Georgia, he would have had over 50% and it would not be going to a runoff where Bloomberg and Hollywood money can have a good chance of buying the seat.

2. If Republicans want to go down this road, may as well go all the way and blame the Russians too.

1. Nah, the Chinese. And the Ukrainians. Also, I heard that somewhere in Kosovo of all places they, for some reason, have named a road after Beau Biden and put up a statue of him.

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2. Give them time. Eventually they’ll end up blaming everyone.

3. No, the fraud is the issue.

Doesn’t mean libertarians aren’t completely full of shit when they don’t vote for the one guy who’s ever done anything to combat the system they claim to hate.
Voting for the marxist-endorsing professor is totes principled, especially because Trump has an R after his name and everyone says he’s a dumb meaniehead…
But libertarians in close states get to feel super self righteous, so the risk of totalitarian leftism and economic devastation is a small price to pay.

1. The LP hasn’t really accomplished anything in 5 decades, so it’s probably a good idea to keep doing the same thing the LP has always done and expect different results next time.

1. I hear the “do the same thing and expect different results” argument a lot, but have started to wonder about its relevance. It’s true that, in a scientific experiment, such as running a current through water and expecting to get hydrogen and oxygen, one doesn’t expect to get hydrogen and, say, barium, but when it comes to human affairs, the factors can’t be reliably identified or controlled. So how would one know if anyone is “doing the same thing?”

2. The Dems lost to our spoiler votes and took all shoot-to-kill drug looting out of their platform. Many states abolished prohibition laws, reducing the need to vote LP during the communist virus epidemic. The GOP were too smug and stupid to change planks. They lose. Sad.

3. In Nevada, Jo won a whopping 600 votes more than “none of these candidates”.

1. None of these candidates should demand a recount for 3rd place with the BLM bitch.

2. That’s actually pretty impressive. I would have figured that NOTA would be by far the third most popular option.

Hell, even as a Jorgensen voter myself, I’m really pretty disappointed that NOTA wasn’t more popular.

1. If NOTA had been an option on CO ballots maybe I would actually wasted my time filling one in.

1. If JoJo had implored voters to vote None of the Above, she could be mayor of New York right now.

1. -30,000,000 dollars.

Or should it be +300 million?

2. When I want to, I write in NOTA.

2. In my opinion, NOTA should stand for “None of these assholes.”

1. Fair

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3. NOTA gets over 20% of the vote in many Brazilian cities with populations comparable to LA and NYC. Libertarian parties are illegal, everyone votes at gunpoint and is taxed to subsidize 16 communist and 16 fascist parties.

3. How does NOTA work for a Presidential election? If NOTA won, what would happen? You can’t have another election with different candidates. Would Nevada just not send any electors? Can they do that?

1. leave the office vacant, duh

2. The LP has argued about how to handle NOTA for decades 🙂 Do you run the election again with different candidates? Do you have Nobody do the job? We’ve also got our complicated multi-round counting method for party chair.

Of course you can have a special election with different candidates; Georgia’s having runoffs for both Senate seats. Or Nevada could send electors committed to vote for somebody other than the current candidates.

4. Are exit polls any better then the pre-election polls? Seeing I’ve never been asked on either, I am going to hazard a guess that they aren’t. Whoever loses the election, it is there own damn fault no matter what (not counting potential voter fraud). Only the weak blame others for their failures.

1. Whoever loses the election, it is there own damn fault

This. You want more votes? Appeal to more voters.

1. Hillary: If you wanted to win you shouldn’t have called everyone a deplorable.

2. Ignoring the idiotic “national popular vote” claims, no matter who wins, half the country didn’t vote for the winner.

It’s like any close game, or most popular book, or anything else which goes by numbers: if it’s close, the winner is mostly a matter of luck.

1. Right now it’s at 50.5% for Biden and 47.8% for Trump. The last polls had Biden up 9 percentage points. Almost every state poll was skewed toward Biden, showing that the bias was systemic and not random errors within the expected variation. Apparently the systemic bias apparent in 2016 was not corrected in any way.

1. I read that it was corrected… they did*worse* this time. So a correction was issued, in the wrong direction.

1. Demographic groups more likely to vote for Drumpf may have better hide-fu when pollsters call, or are just more motivated to ignore calls or screw with the interviewers. Random sampling polling sucks if you can’t fill in the gaps in your “screen” due to not being able to contact cooperative and truthful participants. This was not a big problem when I studied survey research in college, in the 80s. That was prior to the ubiquity of mobile phones, and “caller ID” was experimental and not approved by the FCC or state regulators, yet.

2. Only an idiot votes for a grinning politician. Literate voters read and compare platforms.

3. The logistical problem with exit polls, besides the usual sampling issues, is how to poll people who voted by mail or early or some other method besides showing up on Election Day. That’s especially true this year since the Dems made a big push for early voting to get around Republican disenfranchisement attempts.

The problem with pre-election polls is that they ask people who are likely to try to vote who they’re going to vote for, not people whose votes are likely to actually get counted. (Again, the GOP’s tried really hard to make it difficult for probable Democrats to vote, ranging from the ALEC-pushed Voter ID to long lines at Dem-precinct polling places vs short lines at GOP-precinct ones to Trump trying to stop the vote counts when he’s ahead.)

Friends of mine were part of the post-2000-election audits of Florida’s voting debacle. They said there was a lot of voter fraud, mostly in counties where there was a clear majority that got less scrutiny than the contested ones, more than the ~500-vote official margin. (But the Supremes voted 5-4 that if you’re the President’s brother, you’re not required to count all the votes.) And yes, if Gore had convinced Florida Greens to vote for him instead of Nader, he’d also have won.

In 2000 Florida, of course, the GOP also deregistered tens of thousands of voters for being “felons”, using a list that was extremely inaccurate, and had cops out intimidating black people to discourage them from voting. The former definitely was enough to swing the election, the latter might also have been.

The big impact the Libertarians are having this year is forcing one of Georgia’s Senate seats to a run-off. (The special-election one has one main Democrat, two main Republicans, and a dozen or two other candidates, mostly Dems or GOP, and the Libertarian was down in the noise.)

5. This election did have third party choices… and I still sat it out. Because I don’t give a shit anymore.

1. > Because I don’t give a shit anymore.

The more rational option when your vote literally does not matter mathematically. Sure, MAYBE there will end up being a single dude in Arizona that flip the election, but you are NOT that dude.

Stuff that is more productive than voting: Watching paint dry.

1. Shit, I mowed the yard, cleaned the gutters, blew the leaves off the driveway and had me a nice nap. I haven’t checked to see if I voted but since I haven’t registered or voted in 20 years I think I’m probably pretty good there. Shame I elected Biden there by not voting, but fuck all y’all motherfuckers.

1. I live a bit more than a mile from my polling place. I walked, on a slightly overcast day. I took my rolling shopping cart and hit the shops on my way home. I did a 4-mile loop. Stopping to vote was a 10-minute rest in my “exercise routine.” So, it wasn’t a complete waste of time. The leaves having turned color, the woods near the reservoir were pretty. Plus, I brought home Ring Dings!

2. Huxley pointed out that Americans were losing education in math. Spoiler votes for the LP are leveraged and change bad laws. See “Why Voting Libertarian Works” –Libertariantranslator

6. Do you really think that 97.5 percent of Libertarian voters prefer Trump to Biden?

Put enough of ’em against the wall and the rest of ’em will say they do.

Seriously Matt, I’m not seeing Republicans freaking out over this even1/100th as much as the Dems did over Jill Stein.

1. Do they still assert that Jill Stein was a Russian spy?

It makes me disappointed that I voted for Gary instead of Jill.

1. Yes

You should be

Anecdotally, I know a lot of people on the ideological fringe but it’s only those who identify with the Green Party who go ahead and vote Democrat in solidly blue or red states. Libertarians and Constitution Party people don’t do that with Republicans.

1. I think that’s because the Democrats are progressives and Greens are progressive and both are plummeting into Wokeism. So it’s the SAME ideology. Sure, socialists on the fringes of the Greens, bu socialists on the fringes of the Dems as well.

No so on the Right. Republicans are conservatives but Libertarians are NOT conservatives (though there may be a few). The Constitution Party is conservative, but they’re so tiny they pretty much only hold the fringe. Mostly fundamentalists who don’t believe that the Republican Party was personally founded by God, as well as most of the Birchers.

Libertarians are NOT liberal, NOT progressive, and NOT conservative. They are not Democrats who got taxed, or Republicans who got busted for pot. They are their own ideology and do not fit into the categories the politicians and media demand we use.

There is a sizable libertarian faction within the Republican Party, however. Or at least used to be before Trump. One of the four legs of the coalition stool. Now there’s only two legs (‘Murican Greatness and populists) which is why it’s all wobbly.

2. She was, just not for the current regime. 🙂

2. My Dem friends are pissed about libertarian voters.

“If you don’t like Trump, you have to vote for Biden!”

“You’re wasting your vote!” says the Texas Democrat. LULZ

1. Those people couldn’t simplify a fraction, much less differentiate a constant. Spoiler votes determine future laws, and always have. Friedman hinted this in the appendix to Free to Choose.

7. “Third-party voters tend to sit out elections without third-party choices.”

So, now that the Green New Deal, Biden’s national gun confiscation program, etc. are a looming reality, you’re gonna pretend like voting for the LP doesn’t really matter?

Wasn’t it just last week that you were writing about the the LP candidate polling high enough to play the spoiler in what were thought at the time to be swing states?

“Jo Jorgensen Beating the Trump-Biden Spread in Texas, Ohio, Georgia, Iowa, and…Alaska?”

—-Matt Welch, October 30, 2020

1. Stop whining like a bitch. The Dems don’t control the Senate, and Roberts doesn’t control the Supreme Court. Biden ain’t gonna pass the Green New Deal or confiscate guns.

1. Saying that it’s okay if Libertarian voters screwed the pooch on Biden since the Republicans saved us in the Senate is necessarily a little self-contradictory, isn’t it? If they didn’t screw us in the Senate, too, isn’t that just because there weren’t any Libertarian senators to vote for or because Libertarians voted Republican?

Oh, and I’ll keep complaining every time Biden implements a policy Trump wouldn’t that violates our rights or hurts the economy. Coming after our gun rights and the Green New Deal are just the tip of the iceberg. Is Elizabeth Warren the frontrunner to become Biden’s secretary of the treasury?

1. Dude! Yes, he wants to do all sorts of things. But he can’t. You act as if Biden can personally order the Gestapo to confiscate all guns. He can’t. You act as if he will personally implement the Green New Deal. he can’t, and here’s more news, nobody can — there aren’t enough resources to do so — may as well plan to carry all Earthers to Mars. Simply is not physically possible.

Stop whining like a scared brat. Get real, and maybe your whines will be taken more seriously.

1. “You act as if Biden can personally order the Gestapo to confiscate all guns.”

Wait till the next mass shooting. Are you sure he can’t pass a bill to establish a national confiscation program for people who shouldn’t have guns by whatever criteria?

Are you even familiar with what he’s promising to do?

Are you sure he can’t repeal the bill that removes liability protection from manufacturers for crimes and mass shootings that happen with their guns?

Are you sure he can’t ban the sale of guns and ammo online with an executive order?

1. He is not the entire government. He still has to get Senate cooperation, and he still has to get past a 6-3 or 5-4 Supreme Court.

You’re the one acting like he’s an imminent dictator.

1. I think you lack imagination, Alphabet, as well as not paying close enough attention to the radicalization of the Left in the last few years.

Further, the Senate isn’t going to save you if it goes even 51-49 GOP. It may get worse than that. Beyond Collins possibly being a Trojan Horse, consider there are still three races realistically still left. Two in Georgia, one in NC. One of the Georgian races was going to have a GOP winner, realistically. Then extra ballots kept getting found. Now it’s likely going to be a runoff. Think election chicanery is stopping with this election? The NC race has Tillis (R), up 1.8 points. Maybe that will hold?

Conceivably, and I’m not going very far out on a limb here, the GOP could lose all three races. Then your 52-48 (and people were braying yesterday about potentially 54-46), now becomes 49-51. Whoops.

If the Senate is lost, they will: toss the filibuster, initiate an AR registration scheme (if not outright ban), pack the Supreme Court, start proceedings for adding DC and Puerto Rico as states, and begin Green New Deal actions.

Why wouldn’t they?

2. “He is not the entire government. He still has to get Senate cooperation, and he still has to get past a 6-3 or 5-4 Supreme Court.”

In the aftermath of a mass shooting at a public school somewhere, one or two senators will cave.

If the Las Vegas shooting had happened when Hillary was in office, she would not have let that crisis go to waste–and she would have done a whole lot more than bumpstock ban.

2. The logical fallacy is contrasting the individual with the aggregate.

It makes no difference who you, as an individual, vote for. And you have control over only your own individual vote.

However, on a larger scale, it could matter that R/D see L as a potential source of votes, and seek to cater to them.

But, that’s not what we see. We see the opposite. We see R/D treating L with the same hostility they treat each other. The entire campaign is always about driving turnout of the base, not about convincing undecideds (or opponents) to vote for you.

1. There is a fundamental contradiction in enabling a socialist and authoritarian president into the White House while claiming that it’s okay–because Republicans are acting objectively more libertarian than Libertarians by voting in Republican senators.

Right?

Right.

1. Wrong

1. It is correct.

1. Feelz uber alles, ken.
The libertarian party hasn’t done a damn thing for liberty in 50 years, and it’s everyone else’s fault.

2. No Ken. Stealth Trump campaign here was always on the wrong side.

There was another choice.

3. I’d gladly vote for Rand Paul. In fact, if he were the Republican Liberty Caucus nominee again, I’m fairly certain Jojo’s totals would have been a lot less. A lot less.

Of course we’d have to deal with all the Never-Randers from the RNC and the severe rebuking from libertarians for throwing their vote away.

1. There isn’t anything about who someone is that would make vote for anyone–and that includes Rand Paul.

Where is he on the issues?

Where is his opponent?

That’s why I voted this time for the first time in 20 years. It usually doesn’t matter. This time it did, and there’s no good reason to pretend otherwise.

1. since the Republicans saved us in the Senate is necessarily a little self-contradictory, isn’t it? If they didn’t screw us in the Senate, too, isn’t that just because there weren’t any Libertarian senators to vote for or because Libertarians voted Republican?

I’d vote for Rand in the Senate. I’d also vote for him as President.

That’s just a bit different than default Republican when there are no libertarians around.

2. Have you missed his gun confiscation end run? It’s pretty clear he intends to use executive orders to define magazines that hold more than 10 rounds and semi-automatic firearms that are “capable” of accepting magazines that hold more than 10 rounds as NFA Class 3 weapons just like suppressors. That Glock 19 that comes with three 15 round mags? Be prepared to shell out \$800 in tax stamps with national registration that anyone can look up or sell it “back” to the gov’t for a few bucks.

Oh, and let’s not forget the ATF’s shenanigans waiting for Biden to rule before making the determination that all AR style pistols will henceforth be classed as Class 3 AOWs. Fortunately stretching them to 26″ so they’re classed as “other” will avoid that but they’re aren’t as handy then and will still be Class 3 under Biden’s edict.

1. And with regulatory agencies all too happy to push forward with leftism, the senate isn’t really needed to get the green new deal.
The EPA will suffice.

However, libertarians being rational would not swing this election – it just would have made the Dem fraud harder and more obvious (if that’s even possible).
And if the left gets away with this fraud, who you vote for will never really matter again.

3. We have no idea if the dems control the Senate and won’t for a couple months.

2. Honest people sit out elections offering only looter platforms, policies and poltroons. Matt evidently does not understand the spoiler leverage concept. Republicans have understood it since before Grant started using cocaine, but nobody expects truth from looters. The side I pick is MY side.

8. noone cares, I certainly don’t.

1. Apathy’s back in style

1. Necessity is the mother of invention.

1. Dillinger fan service.

2. Losing will teach Republicans to delete bad planks now that the strategy just defeated their Savior.

9. IMO, the third party vote, if otherwise distributed (without abstensions), would probably tend to lean hard against the incumbent candidate (Trump this year) or party (the Democrats, meaning Clinton, in 2016).

A voter has four years to decide whether he or she likes the incumbent candidate/party. If that voter is even considering voting third party a month before the election, that voter has obviously decided he or she doesn’t like the incumbent candidate/party. It’s the other candidates that are on the table.

10. We all know the real spoiler was the green party. Good thing the DNC in wisconson sued to get them off the ballot this election cycle

1. The which invalidates any Dem screams about we need a more democratic method of electing the President!

11. Some people have a really really hard come grasping the idea that there are more than two choices. To them, if you’re not a supporter of Trump, you must be a socialist and Democrat. There are no other options. Or if you’re not blindly checking off all D checkboxes on your ballot then you’re a filthy Rethuglican and White Supremacist (especially if you’re Latino).

The idea that someone might vote for a third party is inconceivable. The option of just staying home is possible, but surely no one actually does it. Should any of those people be discovered they will be excoriated and belittled for the weak people they are. It’s Trump or it’s Biden. No other options.

If one is a Trump supporter, than a vote for Jo is literally worse than a vote for Biden. Because apostasy has always been a greater sin than heresy. Ditto for Biden supporters encountering a vote for Hawkins. That voter literally rolled out the carpet for Trump, and will surely be first against the wall when the permanent Democrat majority comes to power.

1. TEAM LP voters are mostly just dumb partisan hacks. You could give GayJay and Bill Weld the nomination and they all turn out in droves to vote for “humanitarian wars not in the US interest” and “keep drugs illegal unless it’s pot”. Most Trump supporters don’t give a fuck how these assholes vote

12. Third party voters are vastly outnumbered by non-voters. If your favorite candidate lost, blame his supporters who didn’t bother to show up, not someone else’s supporters who did.

1. BINGO.

Give this man a major prize.

2. ^This.
It’s not that I take it personally. I’ve been a libertarian for 30+ years, and “major” party people have been blaming me for their failures for 30+ years. But today’s Republicans should take a lesson from the 2016 Democrats: blaming somebody else for your mistakes might make you feel better but it doesn’t solve your problems.

3. This would make more sense if we hadn’t broken a 120 year record for turnout as a percentage of eligible voters.

“Americans Broke a 120-year-old Turnout Record — And Are More Divided than Ever”

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-11-04/2020-election-trump-biden-count-analysis

1. How could we break voter turnout records with a billion dead from Covid?

1. How dare you disparage political involvement by Thanato-Americans!

2. Does that count extra for the places that had greater than 100% turnout?

4. Better yet, learn to read platforms and understand laws. Nobody was shot last year or this because of Trump. They were shot because of laws Biden and Republicans passed in 1986 offering asset forfeiture and immunity to cops who shoot hippies and brown folks. Changing the laws is winning. Defeating looter candidates is the path to that success.

13. When I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016, several people accused me of helping to elect Trump.

Trump carried our state by more than 18% over Clinton, which translated to something like 500k votes. Gary Johnson clocked in at just under 100k votes (3.5%) Third parties combined captured about 5% total. It’s a dumb argument.

1. The LP beat the Dems in 2016. They deleted their “kill the kids” planks and decriminalized some plant leaves. God’s Own Prohibitionists didn’t. THEIR platform is dedicated to the murdering immune-from-prosecution First Responders™ citizen posses are now hunting down and killing just as randomly as was done to their loved ones. All this bloodshed because of GOP smugness and learning disability.

14. See, democracy is a group event, determined by all of us, where every vote counts!

And that’s why it makes complete sense to blame small minorities for the outcomes!

I love cognitive dissonance!

1. The RNC IS a small minority!

15. SHHHHHHH!!!! i want them to think we were a spoiler. i want them rethinking the road that led to them putting up a piece of garbage like trump. i want them to start playing more than lip service to those areas where their ideas overlap with ours. if they think ours are votes they can win back, maybe they will try in some way to become a slightly less awful party.

1. Nah, I’ve been down that road more than once. Sure, they’ll say things that sound as if they’re trying to win our votes. But if they then win the election, they’ll promptly “forget” what they said. If we’re rude enough to remind them, they’ll just say “Fuck you; we don’t need you crazies anymore.”

1. i know….. that is why they will never get our votes back….. but i do miss the days when they would lie and at least try to pretend they were decent human beings. just turning down the hyper-partisan, extremist, racist enabling rhetoric would be a win in my book.

1. but i do miss the days when they would lie and at least try to pretend they were decent human beings

Yup, and that’s your problem right there: you are concerned with appearing to be a “decent human being”, rather than making political compromises in order to actually advance the cause of liberty.

In the end, that makes you neither a decent human being nor a libertarian; people like you are just self-righteous jerks, little different from the virtue-signaling SJWs.

1. clearly you missed the part where i was not going to vote for them, douche….. wishing for a little civility isn’t a bad thing. it won’t win my vote. it won’t change what i believe or who i support. but it would be nice if people didn’t act like being an asshole and encouraging racists was a good thing.

1. clearly you missed the part where i was not going to vote for them, douche….. wishing for a little civility isn’t a bad thing.

And what do Biden/Harris, a couple of ill-tempered, corrupt, racist, hyperpartisan authoritarians, have to do with “civility”?

it would be nice if people didn’t act like being an asshole and encouraging racists was a good thing

The racists in this country are overwhelmingly found where they have always been: in the Democratic party. And apparently, you are either too ignorant or too bigoted to acknowledge that fact.

2. i want them to think we were a spoiler.

Yes, but it’s not true. In reality, LP voters are a bunch of virtue signaling kooks who wouldn’t vote for Murray Rothbard if he ran as a Republican.

You gave the reason right there why Republicans should, and will continue to, ignore LP voters.

1. Trump gave libertarians more of what they wanted than any president in my lifetime, and in drastic contrast to the previous two, and their response is not only to vote for someone else, but also to crow about potentially getting the totalitarian collectivist elected instead…

1. i submit that you have no clue what libertarians want, if you believe that is even kinda true.

1. i submit that you have no clue what libertarians want, if you believe that is even kinda true

I know full well what libertarianism stands for. I also know that LP voters and many people who identify as “libertarians” don’t have a clue what libertarianism stands for.

2. YESSS! The schadenfreude feedback loops is strong in this christianofascist nationalsocialist! More tears! More rage, pleeeease! More prohibition laws and asset-forfeiture qualified-immunity jackbooted monons in the platform dedication—YES!

2. Again? Goood!
Oh wait… No Br’er Fox, skin us alive, throw us in de briar patch, but DON’T ignore us!!!

16. The LP didn’t win a single electoral vote of course, and if you’re not a spoiler then why the holy fuck are you even bothering here. Nobody is listening to limited government balanced budget people anymore. Maybe they would sit out, and maybe they would have voted for Trump. I guess we won’t really know. But if you live in a swing state and you voted LP, well congrats for putting BiteMe in the white house (assuming his corrupt crony lying machine gets him the votes)

1. for putting BiteMe in the white house

Shit, this isn’t gonna the new version of Drumpf/Obummer is it? These things are always so lame.

2. Nobody is listening to limited government balanced budget people anymore.

Yep, and that shows you what a miserable failure the LP is: a bunch of autistic incels who think their commitment to liberty is demonstrated by a pointless vote for a useless candidate. They are the perfect virtue-signaling counterpart of the AOC crowd, except that they have less political influence. The LP is worthless.

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18. Just imagine. If Boy Joe wasn’t flooding the market with fake ballots, Girl Jo would have a higher % of the vote!

1. Are you sure you’re allowed to assume her gender?
That seems like it would be contrary to JoJo’s philosophy.

19. People who voted for Jo Jorgensen fall into two categories: people who don’t understand how WTA voting works, and people who confuse libertarianism with “free drugs and free sex” and don’t give a f*ck about the NP.

That’s not so much a statement about the election (who knows how those people would have voted without the LP), and more of a statement about what a useless organization the LP is.

20. If you want a libertarian platform you would vote Trump, as that is the closest you would come. JoJo if she really wanted to make a difference would run in the primary and pull the party closer to your ideals, as Bernie Sanders did for the Democrats. Gary Johnson didn’t become Governor as independent or a libertarian, he did it as a Republican. Democrat is anti-libertarian as they want to control everything you do, say or think. So running as a third-party is a waste of time and more importantly does nothing to advance your issues which should be the goal. Marijuana above all else. That is the libertarian legacy

1. This is the exact argument nationalsocialists at the Nuremberg trials gave for why the U.S. needed to support Hitler. The idea we might not want EITHER brand of force-initiating socialism they evaded with bovine incomprehension–even as the trapdoors dropped and the ropes jerked taut. No big loss.

21. Matt Welch on Wednesday:

“With votes still being tallied and nails still being bitten in several battleground states, Jorgensen’s vote total currently exceeds the margin between President Donald Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden in three states: Michigan (+0.87 percentage points, with 90 percent of ballots counted), Wisconsin (+0.51, with 97 percent counted), and Nevada (+0.27, with 87 percent).”

Matt Welch on Thursday:

Jorgensen beating the spread is meaningless because most of her supporters would not have voted and/or voted for Biden.

22. Why does everyone assume every libertarian would automatically vote Bide if there was no Libertarians candidate? It really depends on which issues each libertarian finds the most important. I do agree, without a Libertarian or other third party candidate, most libertarians would just not vote.

1. I voted against Dole, then against Carter. Then Petr Beckmann convinced me the Libertarian Party was the way to go. I will never vote looter again. Looters must choose to not lose, and the way to do that is to shitcan their violent platform planks or be whopped upside with leveraged spoiler votes. It’s real simple.

23. Well, I’m sorry republicans feel my vote for Jo was a vote for Biden. I refuse to continue to be a party of the lessor of two evils election scam. Tired of leftist living in my pockets. Tired of the hypocrisy of conservatives. I love my God given liberties and the Constitution that embodies them. I’m sick of bouncing between two parties that I disagree with. I have found Libertarian principles to be a better fit than those other two. I was proud to cast my vote for Jo and will make my voice heard with my continued support of the Libertarian platform.

1. Well then you have no one to blame but yourself when your “principles” get shit on by the party that is in charge.

24. post against the commnunity guidline and..READ MORE

25. Jorgensen’s 77,000 votes in PA (along with the votes Philly Democrat officials manufactured without observers since Tuesday) are the only reasons why Biden now leads the vote count in PA.

26. At my age, I don’t have that many votes left. I want them to be for whom I really want. I don’t vote for A just to make sure that B doesn’t win. If no candidate is good enough, I won’t vote.

27. Now that God’s Own Prohibitionist standpatters lost and need a scapegoat, I nominate Lindsey Christie of Carolina. On October 14 Lindsey urged women to believe judge Coney was his bitch and would send SWAT teams into women’s clinics guns blazing the way Robert Dear and the Army of God WISH they could. Christie is the redneck with green teeth I saw tearing Wallace stickers off of cars and helping the FBI infiltrate the KKK–all because his mommy wanted a girl… Git a rope!